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kpenguin
2008-10-12, 09:49 PM
Alright, the newest member of my D&D group wants to play a mage/archer hybrid thingy and since he's new to D&D, I'm helping him make the character build.

My first instinct is to have him go Arcane Archer, but then I remember what a godawful class that is. So, how can I get the flavor of arcane archer without actually being an arcane archer?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-12, 09:51 PM
Duskblade, let him channel through a bow instead of a weapon. Done.

Fishy
2008-10-12, 10:10 PM
Except that if you did that, you'd end up with a lot more power than the Duskblade is supposed to have. I dunno.

Without going into homerules, there's always the Smiting Spell feat from PH2.

Isomenes
2008-10-12, 10:14 PM
Duskblade, let him channel through a bow instead of a weapon. Done.

Or if you're looking for better spell selection/higher levels, you can apply Smiting Spell to just about any gish build imaginable. Spellsword seems popular, as does Abjurant Champion. IIRC, Smiting Spell works with ranged attacks.

Edit: not that I'm failing to recommend Duskblade--it's got some excellent class features that may give you the best bang for your buck. (Free Quickens with no spell level mod.? Yes!) But it does lack a certain versatility in the spells department that you may desire.

JeminiZero
2008-10-12, 10:16 PM
Warlock, fluff up his eldritch blast as being arrows shot from a manifested eldritch bow.

sonofzeal
2008-10-12, 10:20 PM
Soulbow. Change prereqs, change bonus feat list to "Fighter + Wizard", change fluff, call it a day.

Temp.
2008-10-12, 11:08 PM
Except that if you did that, you'd end up with a lot more power than the Duskblade is supposed to have. I dunno. He'll trade damage output and battlefield control abilities for range. Sounds fair to me.

1. Refluff a Sorcerer/Warlock/Soulbow/Warmage
2. Standard gish build with ranged feats. AC has nice stuff for this.
3. Use a Unseen Seer/Arcane Trickster/Spellthief. Spells go to defense, Arrows go to offense unaugmented.
4. Lurk with Ranged Lurk Augment, eventually grabbing Greater Manyshot
5. Chaotic Incarnate. This'll take some work, but it can be pretty slick.
6. Bard/Arcane Archer/Sublime Chord will get Imbue Arrow without killing spellcasting progression.
7. Battle Sorcerer. Allow Arcane Strike to apply to arrow attacks (or enter AC, use Arcane Boost)
8. Use the Smiting Spell Feat. This is going to be rough until Arcane Spellsurge is available. (Smiting Spell's duration is just so damn short).

snoopy13a
2008-10-12, 11:34 PM
Does he want to be an archer and a wizard or does he want to shoot magic arrows?

If he just wants to be an archer/wizard then simply multi-classing into fighter or ranger could work. Fighter has the advantage of two bonus feats in the first two levels while ranger gets Rapid Shot for free at level 2 and gets Concentration as a class skill.

Edit, go with:

Fighter level 1--> Pick up PB Shot and Precise Shot, if human pick up Rapid Shot as well
Wizard level 1-5 (character levels 2-6)
Eldritch Knight 1-10 (character levels 7-16)
Wizard 6-9 (character levels 17-20)

So a Fighter 1/Wizard 9/EK 10

Ponce
2008-10-13, 12:08 AM
Favoured soul actually does a pretty good job of this if you don't mind going the divine route.

Eldariel
2008-10-13, 12:29 AM
Really, either straight Bard, Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 8 or the mentioned Bard 8/Arcane Archer 2/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 3 is awesome.

Straight Bard-builds rely more on Inspire Courage (get Dragonfire Inspiration!), while the Arcane Archer-build will probably be mostly lobbing spells off Imbue Arrow, Smiting Spell and company, although it also has access to stuff like Divine Might [Sacred Exorcist grants Turning], expending spell slots to add twice the level to arrow damage or expended level to hit [Abjurant Champion's Arcane Boost-ability] and other goodies.

Really, archery is one of the best uses for Abjurant Champion, since otherwise Arcane Strike is just plain better than Arcane Boost (when used offensively). Of course, the downside of all this is the fact that Bard's spelllist has very few of the spells Arcane Archer wants (you'd want True Strike, Arrow Mind, Heroics, Flame Arrow, Greater Magic Weapon and abjurations like Shield & Greater Mage Armor to use with Abjurant Champion's "Swift Abjuration"-ability, but none of those are Bard Spells). "Bard 2/Battle Sorcerer 6/Arcane Archer 2/the same" works the better spellwise, but you'll only ever know one level 3 spell, which sucks (probably best to just pick Flame Arrow and have Greater Magic Weapon from another caster/through some higher level trickery).

The other drawback is that the build is horribly feat intensive - Arcane Archer has god-awful prerequisites, and you need Combat Casting for Abjurant Champion to boot. That, and you get no bonus feats. It's doable, but between Divine Might, Smiting Spell and Rapid Shot (since you're a fine volley archer with the Inspire Courage, Arcane Boost and company too), you won't have much extras.

EDIT: Oh yeah, Cleric Archers conquer universes.

Chrono22
2008-10-13, 03:31 AM
Greetings. I am navigating here from the WotC boards. They are in ruins, so I figure this would be a good place to pick back up.
I created an entire base class devoted to this concept. Originally it was a duskblade variant, but I've made numerous modifications and additions. I'm currently playtesting this class, so I might change it later on.
If you decide to use this, please post any feedback you have about the mechanics to this thread or in a PM.
Arcane Archer base class (word document) (http://groups.google.com/group/kingdoms-of-illuria/web/Arcane%20Archer.doc)
Enjoy:smallsmile:

Kurald Galain
2008-10-13, 04:46 AM
Greetings. I am navigating here from the WotC boards. They are in ruins,

Huh? What do you mean?

Quietus
2008-10-13, 04:47 AM
Easiest solution is to simply let the Arcane Archer gain 1/2 caster level advancement. It's still not a super-powerful class, but it helps, a lot, and won't break your game - any more than a full caster would, anyway, and slower than a full caster at that.

Animefunkmaster
2008-10-13, 04:57 AM
Wizard 20 + Spell storing arrows. Granted, spell storing arrows can and most likely will break the game.

Eldariel
2008-10-13, 05:09 AM
Easiest solution is to simply let the Arcane Archer gain 1/2 caster level advancement. It's still not a super-powerful class, but it helps, a lot, and won't break your game - any more than a full caster would, anyway, and slower than a full caster at that.

Well, that particular solution is ill-equipped to solve the problem. Arcane Archer as a class gains nothing worthwhile after level 2, so you'd need to rework more than just the spellcasting progression to make AA worth it. You'll need to rework the entire class (or give it full casting, when it's about on par with Eldritch Knight - way tougher prerequisites, but one worthwhile ability and full casting vs. feat and 9/10 casting). Luckily, everyone knows this. Therefore, Arcane Archer has been reworked at least a hundred times.

Since I'm a human, I'm of course partial for my own work in this regard, but even if it wasn't mine, I think the take is superior to most fixes as the casting system is worked out better (6/10 instead of 5/10, and the penalties come slower so it'll be less painful). Mr. rockdeworld and I did our rework on these forums. You can find the result here, towards the end of this thread:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75222


I especially like the "Fletching"-ability. Since Arcane Archer can imbue her arrows with magic on a moment's notice, it's trivial that she should be able to also enchant arrows out of combat, and crafting rules work just fine for that. Also, since she has twice the enhancement max when fletching arrows, there's an incentive to have fletched arrows prepared for bigger targets when the spontaneous enhancements aren't enough. Also, I like Arrow of Death tied to fletching and progressing from level 1 - that makes it much more reasonable an ability.

Also, the class now synergizes with Ranger (which makes much more sense for an Elf than Fighter synergy) - if you have Favored Enemy, you may enhance your arrows with the "Bane"-property of the appropriate type, making you extremely deadly against your Favored Enemies. That said, many of the limitations are still quite clunky in "half your class level per day"-format, and some of the abilities have quite unimaginative names.


Mr. Prime32 has been working on an Arcane Archer-rework for a while now. The earlier editions were quite bland, but aside from screwing up the casting and still giving out too few skillpoints per level, his newest edition is absolutely excellent. You can find it here:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1077.0

Especially the capstone is noteworthy - having full attack channeling is just awesome and makes the class worth taking all the way. That said, this gears the character heavily towards full attacks - I'd personally prefer having Arcane Archer who rather focuses on sniping with single attacks than incredible flurries (although I'm not opposed to the idea of her having flurry potency as well).

I think some sort of middle ground could be worth seeking out here. Perhaps the snipery option of archery could instead come from feats/other sources - giving them something real for giving up their full attack seems better than just making full attacks not-doable.

Chrono22
2008-10-13, 01:49 PM
Huh? What do you mean?
You haven't been to the dnd boards since they wrecked them, have you? That place is a tomb.

sonofzeal
2008-10-13, 01:54 PM
I still think replacing the mechanics of Arcane Archer with the ones for Soulbow is the way to go. You don't get Caster advancement, but you basically get all the goodness WotC obviously intended to put into Arcane Archer, but arranged in a way that makes much more sense and is much more effective at what it's trying to do. Seriously, check it out.

Person_Man
2008-10-13, 03:09 PM
Here's my homebrew fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92407) that basically makes you a Jedi. But you could just as easily be an Arcane Archer or Soulknife with the mechanics.

Another option is to just be a Ranger with the Sword of the Arcane Order feat (Champions of Valor), which lets you memorize Wizard spells, and Smiting Spell (PHBII) which lets you imbue ammo or your weapon with a spell. You could pull the same thing off as a Hexblade, Bard, or a Spellthief with Smiting Spell.

Spellthief (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=1) archers in particular have a lot interesting combos available to them, especially if you party with the right people (Warlock, Dragonfire Adept, Cleric) and take the Arcane Strike feat.

Chrono22
2008-10-14, 04:36 AM
So, did you choose anything?
*bump*

kpenguin
2008-10-16, 03:16 AM
So much to choose from...

Cuddly
2008-10-16, 10:19 AM
So much to choose from...

I'd go with a build that works at level 7-10, while also letting the prereq levels not hurt too much. A build that only starts to work around level 15 isn't much of a build, imo.

Jack Zander
2008-10-16, 11:18 AM
My girlfriend likes to play archer gish builds with Eldrich Knight. Wizards have a lot of spells that help out archery, and you only lose 3 points of BAB. If you're playing an elf with a high Dexterity, your BAB hardly matters anyway.

Keld Denar
2008-10-16, 11:48 AM
The problem with Archery is not AB, but damage. Since you don't have a mechanic like PA that allows you to convert superfluous AB into damage, you tend to end up hitting ACs 10+ points higher than required, even with Rapid Shot and on your tertiary and quadrinary shots. Therefore, almost all of what BAB gives you is your rate of fire, or how many d20s do you got to throw this level.

The biggest most borked thing about the Arcane Archer as it stands is the fact that its signature ability, that to automatically enchant arrows with enhancement bonuses, is completely usurped by the 3rd level wizard spell Greater Magic Weapon. Since in 3.5, arrow and bow enhancements don't stack, there is no point in getting magical arrows with enhancement bonuses. If you could imbue them with enhancement equivalents, you could put out some pretty impressive numbers. A +1 Force Exit Wounds bow (+5 equiv) with GMW up to +5 firing +1 Flaming Frost Shock Acid arrows for normal fire, and +1 Holy Sacred Bane (undead/outsiders) when appropriate would be throwing around more d6s per round that a Greater Invised Duelwielding Rogue! Sadly, this can not be because of a poor job in the copy/paste department. Rest well Arcane Archer, we hardly knew thee.

Person_Man
2008-10-16, 01:57 PM
It's also worth mentioning that a full BAB class using archery deals damage that consistently scales better then almost any other damage I'm aware of.

Because they're no where near the front line of combat and often have defensive class features (good HD, ok AC, Evasion or Mettle or Divine Grace), archer builds can generally put the vast bulk of their gp into a single potent magic bow and various magic arrows. Magic Arrows are purchased in batches of 50 and only break 50% of the time, so one purchase can generally be used for a ton of combats. Your items can be further improved with Ancestral Weapon and/or Mercantile Background and/or Kensai and/or Peerless Archer.

Magical effects of different types stack. So if you have a +1 Flaming Bow, and fire +1 Frost arrows, every attack is potentially a +1 Flaming Frost attack. This generally works out to a +1d6 per level bonus to damage. You can specialize the ammo (Bane, Holy) for the enemy. You can trade raw damage for special effects as needed. It's also pretty easy to get a friend to cast Greater Magic Weapon on your bow, increasing the enhancement bonus to hit and damage to [level/4] for a small investment. And assuming your group collectively invests enough ranks into the various Knowledge Skills, you almost never have to worry about DR, because you can choose the material of your arrows as needed. And when you get Improved Precise Shot, you ignore the Miss Chance (Darkness, Blink, Displacement, etc) of anything less then Total Concealment (and can buy cheap magic items for See Invisibility as needed).

With Rapid Shot, any full BAB class will get [(level - 1)/5, min. 1] + 1 attacks per round, and an additional attack for Speed/Haste when they can afford it at mid levels. If you desperately need to move, you can use Manyshot and make just one fewer attack. But as an archer, you should be standing as far away as reasonably possible, so movement shouldn't be necessary after the first round. Since they generally have high Dex, feats, a magical enhancement bonus, and aren't dropping their To-Hit for Power Attack, the vast majority of these attacks will hit. Let's say 80% to figure out average damage, but obviously your results will vary.

So a 11th level archer deals can reasonably assume that he can consistently deal [.80 * 4 * (1d8 + Str + enhancement bonus + 10d6ish)] damage (average 150ish) every round, to anyone on the battlefield, distributed in 38ish damage chunks however they like. And that's BEFORE being improved by spells or buffs or other class features, and not factoring in the critical hit which will happen every 5 rounds (on average).

Now, while Power Attack combo or metamagic spells can top this, no one can do it as well on a consistent basis every single round of every combat. Melee builds can't distribute it across the batlefield as well as an archer, and have to worry about the threat of melee counter attacks from nearby enemies. And everyone else has to worry about DR and SR and Miss Chance.

So in sum, you really don't need the Arcane Archer PrC. Any full BAB class/PrC will work fine.

LibraryOgre
2008-10-16, 02:15 PM
I'm a simplist, at heart. Go with a Battle Sorcerer, and steer him towards feats and spells that will increase his archery. Let him take some non-Sor/Wiz spells that fit with the theme.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-10-16, 02:42 PM
Magical effects of different types stack. So if you have a +1 Flaming Bow, and fire +1 Frost arrows, every attack is potentially a +1 Flaming Frost attack. This generally works out to a +1d6 per level bonus to damage.

I will have to disagree with this. No way in heck is a level 10 character going to be able to afford throwing out 10d6 worth of extra stuff on their shots, even if you enchant both bow and arrow seperately with different stuffs.

In fact, the bow shouldn't have any elemental effects on it at all (except maybe acid or sonic, something that doesn't get resisted a lot), let your ammo be your choice.

And best way to break an archer is going to be Scout/Hunter with Swift Hunter feat and Greater Manyshot. That gives you maximum number of D6's to throw per shot and maximum number of shots.

Cuddly
2008-10-16, 03:38 PM
And best way to break an archer is going to be Scout/Hunter with Swift Hunter feat and Greater Manyshot. That gives you maximum number of D6's to throw per shot and maximum number of shots.

Make sure it's an insectile Thri-Kreen with the the totemist chakra that gives an extra pair of arms, and girallon's blessing for another set, armed with splitting bows.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-10-16, 03:46 PM
I will have to disagree with this. No way in heck is a level 10 character going to be able to afford throwing out 10d6 worth of extra stuff on their shots, even if you enchant both bow and arrow seperately with different stuffs.

In fact, the bow shouldn't have any elemental effects on it at all (except maybe acid or sonic, something that doesn't get resisted a lot), let your ammo be your choice.

And best way to break an archer is going to be Scout/Hunter with Swift Hunter feat and Greater Manyshot. That gives you maximum number of D6's to throw per shot and maximum number of shots.

Seems to me if you want to maximise your damage would be to go ninja/scout taking swift ambusher... and poping invis and moving 10 feat then shoot the problem being though untill higher levels your still only getting 1 shot.

Temp.
2008-10-16, 03:53 PM
Seems to me if you want to maximise your damage would be to go ninja/scout taking swift ambusher... and poping invis and moving 10 feat then shoot the problem being though untill higher levels your still only getting 1 shot. Unfortunately, Ninja levels don't work there. If they did, you'd still have a harder time gaining the feats and you wouldn't be able to use Favored Enemy to get around Crit immunities.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-10-16, 04:00 PM
Unfortunately, Ninja levels don't work there. If they did, you'd still have a harder time gaining the feats and you wouldn't be able to use Favored Enemy to get around Crit immunities.

why don't they? just becuase of the immunities i agree... but disregarding the immunities pure damage wise it would be better.

snoopy13a
2008-10-16, 04:03 PM
Magic Arrows are purchased in batches of 50 and only break 50% of the time, so one purchase can generally be used for a ton of combats.

Arrows break or are lost 50% of the time if you miss. They break 100% of the time if you hit. This goes for magic and regular arrows.

If you shoot 100 arrows and hit 80 times then you'll have around 10 arrows left.

Eldariel
2008-10-16, 04:06 PM
One option that hasn't sufficiently been brought up is DMM: Persistent Archivist Archer (picking up Turning from either Sacred Exorcist on level 7, or one-level Cleric Dip). With Smiting Spell, it can probably capture the idea of an Arcane Archer the easiest with proper spell selection. Ruathar-dip would get bow proficiencies too, along with Spot/Hide in class.

Archivist's spell selection lends itself wonderfully for archery as you get Ranger's and Wizard's most important buffs along with the usual Clericky goodness. Really, Archivist is pretty close to a Wizard anyways, but has a much better spell selection for this job and an easy access to DMM: Persisting, so an Archivist Archer probably captures the flavour of Arcane Archer extremely well. Of course, the drawback is that it really only picks up on level 9 when you get DMM: Persistent, Divine Power, +3/+3 Divine Favor (Quickenable) and the rest of the goodies.

Temp.
2008-10-16, 04:15 PM
why don't they?Because Ninja levels aren't Rogue levels?

I guess Sudden Strike and Skirmish would still stack for Feat/PrC entrance requirements, but that's usually not the reason you'd be taking Swift Ambusher.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-10-16, 04:19 PM
Because Ninja levels aren't Rogue levels?

I guess Sudden Strike and Skirmish would still stack for Feat/PrC entrance requirements, but that's usually not the reason you'd be taking Swift Ambusher.

Says in the book that sudden strike counts as sneak attack for the purposes of feat requirments/effects and prcs.

also agree that its not normally taken but i always wonderd if it would be more effective. Using invis can help thats all.. eaither way this is getting off topic...

As far as gish archers... i would say eaither cleric/fighters.. going devine or focus specialist diviner/abjurer(lots of spells that help boost attacks).

Eldariel
2008-10-16, 04:21 PM
Says in the book that sudden strike counts as sneak attack for the purposes of feat requirments/effects and prcs.

also agree that its not normally taken but i always wonderd if it would be more effective. Using invis can help thats all.. eaither way this is getting off topic...

As far as gish archers... i would say eaither cleric/fighters..

...why would you ever take Fighter-levels for an Archer Cleric?

Temp.
2008-10-16, 04:22 PM
Says in the book that sudden strike counts as sneak attack for the purposes of feat requirments/effects and prcs.But does it say that Ninja levels are the same as Rogue levels? Otherwise, the Swift Ambusher feat does nothing for Ninja/Scouts.

(The feat says "Rogue" and "Scout" levels stack for the purpose of skirmish, not "Sneak Attacker class" and "Skirmisher class" levels.)

RagnaroksChosen
2008-10-16, 04:31 PM
But does it say that Ninja levels are the same as Rogue levels? Otherwise, the Swift Ambusher feat does nothing for Ninja/Scouts.

(The feat says "Rogue" and "Scout" levels stack for the purpose of skirmish, not "Sneak Attacker class" and "Skirmisher class" levels.)

Opened a new topic about that particular question. lets move this discusion there.

Eldariel: cuz i like feats to playa round with as an archer... and not having 9 caster levels to me isn't that big of a deal.

Eldariel
2008-10-16, 04:40 PM
You do miss out on the best buffs that way though (for example, you'll need to enchant your bow instead of just casting Greater Magic Weapon for +5, and stuff like Bite of the Werebear, Greater Visage of the Deity, Quickened Divine Agility and so on is totally out of reach), not to mention your other buffs are of lower power, last a shorter time and you can prepare them fewer times. Very few feats seem worth all that. I mean, I'm not attacking your likes or anything, but since this thread is for advice, perchance we ought to do our best to give as solid advice as we can?

Person_Man
2008-10-16, 04:49 PM
I will have to disagree with this. No way in heck is a level 10 character going to be able to afford throwing out 10d6 worth of extra stuff on their shots, even if you enchant both bow and arrow seperately with different stuffs.

The standard WBL for a 10th level character is 49,000 gp, going up to 66,000 by 11th level. By itself, that's enough to buy a +3 weapon (18,000ish gp) and plenty of +3 ammo. So by itself, that's 1d8 + Str + 1 + 4d6 damage per attack. And most campaigns involve knowing your enemy to some degree (your quest is to go kill the evil necromancer), so it'll often be a little higher when you use the Bane enhancement intelligently.

If you take the Ancestral Weapon feat, you can sacrifice gp or magic items to improve a single ancestral weapon of your choice (your bow). This generally saves you 25 to 50%ish of your gp, because you don't need to sell useless magic items (at a 50% markdown). And/or you can take the Mercantile Background feat, which let's you sell everything at a 25% markdown instead of a 50% markdown. Either (or both) of these feats will get you into the 61,000 to 99,000 gp range by level 10. Enough for +4 bow and arrows. This gets you to 1d8 + Str + 1 + 6d6 damage per attack or more, depending upon how much you can buy and what you find.

If you're a Whatever 5/Kensai 5, you get a +5 weapon (that continues to improve) as your major class feature, minus the minor xp cost. So you can spend the bulk of your gp on +5 or higher magic ammo. That gets you to 1d8 + Str + 1 + 8d6, or higher. Kensai also has the ability to get +8 Str virtually every combat (Concentration is easy to boost). Alternatively you can be a Peerless Archer, which can make magic ammo, allowing you to put most of your gp into your bow.

In addition, anyone can take the Item Familiar feat. Designate your bow your Item Familiar. This further improves your weapon by +1 for free, as well as granting it other useful powers, and allowing you to boost a Skill (like Concentration or Iaijutsu Focus).

There are a ton of other feats out there that add +1d6ish extra damage. The most efficient method depends on your class choice. If you can pick up 1d6 Sneak Attack (1 level of the Thug Fighter variant), you can take Craven and get +1 damage per class level, for example.

If you have 1 level of any caster class (Ranger, Paladin, Hexblade, etc), you can use Wands for any spell on that caster's list. Pour through the splat books, and you'll find plenty of spells that are Swift actions or long term buffs. And since they're 1st through 4th level spells, they're cheap to put into a wand and use every combat.

There are also ton of other PrC or class combos out there, but you get the point. And obviously your DM might give you more or less gp worth of treasure.

But with just 2-3 feats and 5 PrC levels, I've demonstrated how a standard character can easily get to 1d8 + Str + 1 + 8d6 damage per attack by level 10ish. So I'd argue that my basic math of 1d6 extra damage per level is a pretty good estimate. In fact, I'm guessing we could get much higher by ECL 10ish if we tried. Swift Hunter's an ok idea. The crazy Splitting enhancement also comes to mind.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-10-16, 05:02 PM
You do miss out on the best buffs that way though (for example, you'll need to enchant your bow instead of just casting Greater Magic Weapon for +5, and stuff like Bite of the Werebear, Greater Visage of the Deity, Quickened Divine Agility and so on is totally out of reach), not to mention your other buffs are of lower power, last a shorter time and you can prepare them fewer times. Very few feats seem worth all that. I mean, I'm not attacking your likes or anything, but since this thread is for advice, perchance we ought to do our best to give as solid advice as we can?

I can understand that and i take no offence to it.. but to me it seems like playing more caster then archer...

Bite of the werebear is a good example. Divine agility is a good point as is greater magic weapon... All im saying is that having some cleric levels for devine might and some of the earlyer buffs can make for an amazing archer... ya your not having all day buffs or what not but ususaly they work out well... or have in the cases i've played them.
Optimal wise i could see either way. The op just made it sound like he wanted a little bit of casting versus alot of casting.

Eldariel
2008-10-16, 05:09 PM
You need not cast a single offensive spell as Cleric 20 though. Really, how caster vs. archer it feels is entirely up to the player - you could build your entire spell list focused around buffing yourself and never once doing any combat action beyond shooting your bow (maybe imbuing it with some spell through Smiting Spell or Spellstoring Arrow); doesn't really get much more "archer" than that.

Going for Cleric 20 definitely gives more options as far as buffs go - there's way more beyond what I suggested (and you can cast "per day"-buffs at CL20 on level 14 or so without Divine Spell Power with common Core-only material, so it's practical beyond theorethical exercises). Maybe it's just me, but I like to have my major buffs up all day as opposed to having to anticipate encounters and prepare and stuff like that - definitely doable through sufficient amounts of divination and scouting, but slows the game down unnecessarily and can lead to wasted actions in combat.

Also, having the means to dispel protections, Wind Walls and stuff like that feels really valuable, as well as providing your own buffs (if you multiclass half way through, you'll really want your party wizard or any other full caster to give you the Greater Magic Weapon), and Heal and things like that.

Chrono22
2008-10-16, 05:31 PM
I strongly advise that the OP check my base class over.
While any other number of builds, class combinations, and themes can stand in for an arcane archer, they all require a high degree of advance planning and a good understanding of the rules.
Taking my arcane archer base class would keep things simple for your new player- and *I feel* it is more true to the theme and intent of the original arcane archer prestige class.

Talya
2008-10-16, 05:51 PM
As much as I hate the "Play a swordsage" response that seems to come up so often...

Fax rocks. (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Falling_Star_Discipline)

I just need a release of errata for the conflicting descriptions. :)

RagnaroksChosen
2008-10-16, 08:35 PM
You need not cast a single offensive spell as Cleric 20 though. Really, how caster vs. archer it feels is entirely up to the player - you could build your entire spell list focused around buffing yourself and never once doing any combat action beyond shooting your bow (maybe imbuing it with some spell through Smiting Spell or Spellstoring Arrow); doesn't really get much more "archer" than that.

Going for Cleric 20 definitely gives more options as far as buffs go - there's way more beyond what I suggested (and you can cast "per day"-buffs at CL20 on level 14 or so without Divine Spell Power with common Core-only material, so it's practical beyond theorethical exercises). Maybe it's just me, but I like to have my major buffs up all day as opposed to having to anticipate encounters and prepare and stuff like that - definitely doable through sufficient amounts of divination and scouting, but slows the game down unnecessarily and can lead to wasted actions in combat.

Also, having the means to dispel protections, Wind Walls and stuff like that feels really valuable, as well as providing your own buffs (if you multiclass half way through, you'll really want your party wizard or any other full caster to give you the Greater Magic Weapon), and Heal and things like that.


Theres only one Core only buff i could find that was per hour magic vestment... cleric archers loose there apeal in core only.. actualy archers all together kinda suck core only... what makes a cleric archer great in non core is Zen archery and some of the buffs but alot of the good ones are the ones you want to case before combat starts... things like bull str. and Devine favor and what not... so it really is the same cept with the gish i have more feat options.. The problem with out of core stuff which is what makes an archer good.. CODzilla comes into effect.. persisted metamagic and what not...

Some truly broken spells in the compendium... it can get ridiculous. But regardless i would still take some levels of fighter for those extra delicous feats even in non core... there are some great archer feats out there.

Eldariel
2008-10-16, 08:39 PM
Meh, you get enough feats in normal progression to pick up PBS, Precise and Rapid and that's really all you need. There're very few feats beyond that which notably improve archery, which happens to be one of the main issues with it in the first place. In core, a Cleric Archer spends a buff-round casting Quickened Divine Favor, and Divine Power. After that, it works out as normal.

Temp.
2008-10-16, 10:36 PM
It's been said already, but Archivists make great "Arcane" Archers because of their access to Ranger Archery buffs, high-level Cleric and Druid buffs and Dark Knowledge. DK provides an extra 3d6 damage, which doesn't hurt. Boosting Knowledge skills also makes Knowledge Devotion generate decent Attack and Damage bonuses, if it's your thing.

It can be a pain getting Turning, but it's probably worth it.


A different approach might be a Warlock/Ranger/Chameleon. Use Chameleon for your choice low-level buffs (nab them from any spell list in the game) and ability boosts. It has easy, self-contained casting and great flexibility.

Unseen Seer, advancing either Skirmish or Sneak Attack, can do this job ridiculously well. Use Arcane Spellsurge to load an arrow with Smiting Spell each round and Sneak Attack with full-round arrow barrages. With Persisted Hunter's Eye (PHB2), you (and your familiar) get 1d6 SA per 3 caster levels (including the Unseen Seer CL boost). Cloud of Knives from the Player's Handbook 2 gets you (and your familiar) a free-action sneak attack each round on top of your normally-scheduled barrage.

Keld Denar
2008-10-17, 01:51 AM
Its also worth noting for the archivist archer that turn undead IS actually important, if you have a decent cha. Even though Divine Might requires Power Attack as a prereq, NOTHING in DM specifies that it only works with a melee weapon. Therefore, you CAN Divine Might then Rapid Shot, getting your cha to damage on top of all of the other fun things that you can do as an archivist archer.

kpenguin
2008-10-18, 11:03 PM
I decided to go with Eldariel's Arcane Archer Redux. Thanks to everybody.

Talic
2008-10-19, 12:15 PM
Alternately, there's a non-archer build. Duskblade 13/Bloodstorm Blade 7.

Imbue your Javelin with a spell.

Treat ranged attacks as melee.

Take a full attack action with that javelin, throwing it repeatedly through Bloodstorm blade abilities.

Anyone that gets hit takes Spell damage.

Use Far Shot to double the increment. You'll get good distance out of it.