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Kiyona
2008-10-13, 07:37 AM
Hello all,

As my sorceress is evolving she seems to have some anger issues. And I think it would be really cool if she could get something similar to barbarians rage. Maybe increased casterlevel for a short time, being exhausted afterwards. Or maybe losing spellslots or some such.

Is there a way to do it already in the hundreds of books? And if not, would it be possible to homebrew something like it? Would it be a feat, a class variation or what not?

Very thankful for any suggestions. :smallsmile:

Suzuro
2008-10-13, 07:45 AM
There is the Rage Mage PrC in the...Complete Warrior I think, it's one of the complete's anyways. You'd need to multi to barbarian to take it, but it allows you to rage and use your ECL as a caster level, and a couple other things...I've heard the class is pretty bad, however.


-Suzuro

kamikasei
2008-10-13, 07:47 AM
You could try to homebrew in something like the Wilder's Overchannel ability - temporarily boost your caster level in exchange for fatigue. It might not convert so well from power points to Vancian magic, though.

Kiyona
2008-10-13, 07:57 AM
Suzuro

Yeah, the Rage mage isnt what Im looking for. It lets you cast at your characterlevel, instead of arcane casterlevel, so its probably good in a gish. Thanks though. =)

kamikasei

That sounds interesting. I dont have the psionics books myself, so I have to wait until I can borrow them from DM before I look it up. Do you think something like that would be to overpowered as a feat?

Suzuro
2008-10-13, 08:00 AM
No need! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/wilder.htm) It's in the SRD


-Suzuro

kamikasei
2008-10-13, 08:07 AM
Psionics has two ways to do this sort of thing, the wilder's Wild Surge class feature and the Overchannel feat. The former gives you +x to ML but you have to save to avoid being dazed and losing power points. The latter gives you +x to ML at the cost of damage to yourself.

Overchannel probably converts more easily since you don't have to work out the most balanced equivalent to lost power points for an arcane caster (lose a spell? Which? Of what level?). In fact you could convert it directly, but you'll probably want to tinker with it to make it more rage-like. Really, I would say the important thing is to talk to your DM and see what he's comfortable with. If you can agree on a good way to handle the lost spells or whatever, simply grafting on the wilder's class feature onto the sorcerer's progression doesn't look like it'd be too crazy.

Kiyona
2008-10-13, 08:14 AM
Suzuro

That is an awesome link, to bad I am at work and dont have acces to it. ^^
Byt thank you.

kamikasei

That is just what I was looking for! I'll look it up on the SRD when I get home, refluff it a bit and ask my DM for permission. To get it as a class feature would be awesome indeed, sorcs dont get many of those.

Thanks for the very fast help everyone. :smallbiggrin:

RagnaroksChosen
2008-10-13, 08:51 AM
Suzuro

That is an awesome link, to bad I am at work and dont have acces to it. ^^
Byt thank you.

kamikasei

That is just what I was looking for! I'll look it up on the SRD when I get home, refluff it a bit and ask my DM for permission. To get it as a class feature would be awesome indeed, sorcs dont get many of those.

Thanks for the very fast help everyone. :smallbiggrin:

if you like that ability isn't there a wild mage prc somewhere that allows your to roll for your caster level or some thing?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-13, 08:54 AM
if you like that ability isn't there a wild mage prc somewhere that allows your to roll for your caster level or some thing?Yeah, it gives you a -3 penalty to CL and adds a d6. It also redirects attacks aimed at you to your allies, lets you re-roll draws from a Deck of Many Things, and does a lot of other fun stuff that really doesn't matter.

kamikasei
2008-10-13, 08:56 AM
if you like that ability isn't there a wild mage prc somewhere that allows your to roll for your caster level or some thing?

Thing is, that ability is always on, is a penalty as often as it's a bonus, and has no mechanic for giving you a temporary boost and then leaving you drained afterwards. It doesn't much resemble a rage.

Adumbration
2008-10-13, 09:01 AM
Thing is, that ability is always on, is a penalty as often as it's a bonus, and has no mechanic for giving you a temporary boost and then leaving you drained afterwards. It doesn't much resemble a rage.

According to FAQ, I think, you can negate the CL penalty by taking feat that ups your CL to your HD with a limit of 4. Can't remember the name, though. Practised spellcaster?

RagnaroksChosen
2008-10-13, 09:02 AM
Thing is, that ability is always on, is a penalty as often as it's a bonus, and has no mechanic for giving you a temporary boost and then leaving you drained afterwards. It doesn't much resemble a rage.

True im sure you can use that as a base mechanic... its going to need refulfing any way... but i know your where mentioning overchannel figured thats a good mechanic to base it off of. or even if the rage adds 1 cl...
or 1d4 cl to the spell.

kamikasei
2008-10-13, 09:03 AM
According to FAQ, I think, you can negate the CL penalty by taking feat that ups your CL to your HD with a limit of 4. Can't remember the name, though. Practised spellcaster?

Kind of cheesy, but may work depending on the DM (and yeah, I think it is Practised Spellcaster). Problem is, it's still an always-on ability. The OP explicitly wants it to be something she can turn on at the risk or cost of a penalty afterwards.


True im sure you can use that as a base mechanic... its going to need refulfing any way... but i know your where mentioning overchannel figured thats a good mechanic to base it off of. or even if the rage adds 1 cl...
or 1d4 cl to the spell.

Well, I figure if adding +1 ML works for psionics, +1 CL should work well enough for magic (though I would prefer to go with a version of the wilder's class feature so that it scales with level). Making the boost random isn't particularly thematic and it adds a fair bit of bookkeeping hassle.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-10-13, 09:05 AM
Well op whats your spell selection are you a blaster or buffer or what?

cuz that may help in finding you some thing.

Starbuck_II
2008-10-13, 09:08 AM
According to FAQ, I think, you can negate the CL penalty by taking feat that ups your CL to your HD with a limit of 4. Can't remember the name, though. Practised spellcaster?

Kinda, PS only worked after applying Wild Mage bonus not prior.
So say you rolled a 1 +-3=-2. PS will make this up to +0.

Say you rolled a 3 -3= 0. PS won't apply.

Kamikasie


Well, I figure if adding +1 ML works for psionics, +1 CL should work well enough for magic (though I would prefer to go with a version of the wilder's class feature so that it scales with level). Making the boost random isn't particularly thematic and it adds a fair bit of bookkeeping hassle.


Actually, I think +1 ML is worth less than +1 CL (usually cause there is more broken arcane caster things).
So like Overchannel as a class feature?
It scales with level.
There is a improved Overchannel feat in Complete Psionics. So that feat could be used also.

So how about a mixture of Overchannel/Wild Surge:
Since you wanted fatigue, I changed the dazed to it but made it last 2 turns.


A [insert class here] can let her passion and emotion rise to the surface in a [insert class ability name here] when she manifests a spell. During a [insert class ability name here] , a [insert class here] gains phenomenal arcanestrength, but may harm herself by the reckless use of her power (see Arcane Enervation, below). Effectively, you burn your life force to strengthen your spells.

A [insert class here] can choose to invoke a [insert class ability name here] whenever she manifests a spell. When she does so, she gains +1 to her caster level with that casting of the spell.

The effective increase in caster level increases increasing all caster level-dependent effects, such as range, duration, and overcoming spell resistance.

This improvement in caster level does not grant her any other benefits (familiar abilities do not advance, she does not gain higher-level class abilities, and so on).

In addition, you can further increases you caster level at the expense of your life, but you don't have to do it.

While casting a spell, you can increase your effective caster level further by one, but in so doing you take 1d8 points of damage.

At 8th level, you can choose to increase your effective caster level further by one two, but you take 3d8 points of damage.

At 15th level, you can choose to increase your effective caster level further by one three, but you take 5d8 points of damage.

Arcane Enervation (Ex)
Pushing oneself by invoking a [insert class ability name here] is dangerous. Immediately following each [insert class ability name here], a [insert class name here] may be overcome by the strain of her effort.

The chance of suffering arcane enervation is Fort DC 12 + 2x spell level.

A [insert class name here] who is overcome by arcane enervation is fatiugued until end of next turn and loses an equal arcane spell slot (if she had none left she loses one level lower).

Example:
A level 1 [insert class name here] uses [insert class ability name here] to raise caster level on magic missile to 3 (Level 1 + 1 from ability plus further +1 increase by taking 1d8 damage).
She shoots 2 missiles.
Afterward, she must take damage and the save:
She makes a Fort save DC 14. And makes it so she takes no fatigue/loss of spells.
She takes 2 on the 1d8.
If she had failed her Fort save, she would have lost her other 1st level spell slot or 1 cantrip.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-10-13, 09:18 AM
wouldn't it make more sense to have PS apply before the roll, as the ability permentatly reduces your caster level by 3. and abilities that stack always stack in the most beneficial way?

seems to me like you would be adding 1d6 caster levels to your caster level if you used the feat.

Kiyona
2008-10-13, 09:21 AM
RagnaroksChosen

Well, so far I am only level 5 so I dont have that many spells to choose from. =) But I will probably be an all-round caster. Ray of enervation is a favourite so far. I will probably specialise in rays, i like the touch attack. Some utility spells and at least one of each save type, and one without SR. Leaving buffs and charms to the bard.

Everyone,

Wild mage is an awesome class, but it doesnt really fit the concept I had in mind. Maybe if we tweek it lots and lots. As kamikasei says, I am interested in a ragelike ability. That lets her be more powerful sometimes, but at a cost.
Besides, there already is a really powerful wild mage in the campaign, and probably future BBEG. But thanks for a great suggestion. =)

So far I like the wilders abilitys the most, it seems easier to refluff so that it fits my character.

Starbuck_II
2008-10-13, 09:29 AM
wouldn't it make more sense to have PS apply before the roll, as the ability permentatly reduces your caster level by 3. and abilities that stack always stack in the most beneficial way?

seems to me like you would be adding 1d6 caster levels to your caster level if you used the feat.

I was just answering what the FAQ says.

I'd perfer if it stacked, but that isn't what the authority dudes think.

So, Kiyona, did ya like my mixing of Overchannel/Wild Surge?

I think it fits.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-10-13, 09:34 AM
From what i understand if your going to go more generalist the + to caster level only helps dmg dealers mabye some save or suck casters...

buffers, meh, extra round or minute of a buff is ok.. but there are other things you could be taking.
schools that are generaly helped by increase to caster level
adjuration - mostly buffs not realy
Conjuration - can be helpfull for your dmg esc spells, acid arrow, orbs etc
evoc- obviously more dmg
divination- not sure about this one
illusion- nope need more DC
enchantment- same as illusion
necromancy - actualy helps it a bit
Transmutaion - more buffs does help with some though


Rage mage wouldn't be that bad if it was full progression.
once you get the ability to increase you dc of the spells you cast while raging make it seem a bit more worth while.

Kiyona
2008-10-13, 09:45 AM
Starbuck_II

I love it! =) I have no idea how I managed to miss your post, somehow I just glanced ove rit. Maybe I got ninjad.



While casting a spell, you can increase your effective caster level further by one, but in so doing you take 1d8 points of damage.

At 8th level, you can choose to increase your effective caster level further by one two, but you take 3d8 points of damage.

At 15th level, you can choose to increase your effective caster level further by one three, but you take 5d8 points of damage.

This part had me a bit confused, at level 8 I can increase it by 2, at lvl 15th I can increase it by 3? Is that correct?

This is just what I am looking for. :smallbiggrin:

The campaign has already started, we have played from level 1 to 5, do you think it would be possible to just insert this classfeature even though we already started? Would you as a DM allow it?

[EDIT] Ninja'd again. =) Yeah, I know it wont be very helpful to that kind of sorcerer, I just want it because it is so cool. :smallbiggrin: And it fits her personality so much. It would be very fun to play out. :smallbiggrin:

RagnaroksChosen
2008-10-13, 09:50 AM
fair enough
ask for it for a class feature or a feat... that way the gm may not be to bothered by it... i wouldn't let you added it to an existing character but i would let you take that as a feat. or a class ability in the future. or in exchange for another class feature of a prc..

and ya i don't know how i managed to miss his post too.. or atleast the arcane overchannel

kamikasei
2008-10-13, 09:54 AM
I'd probably allow it, though for a character in play I'd probably make it cost a feat.

As to Starbuck's post, I think he engaged in a bit of edit-ninjaing there.

Starbuck_II
2008-10-13, 10:10 AM
Starbuck_II

I love it! =) I have no idea how I managed to miss your post, somehow I just glanced ove rit. Maybe I got ninjad.



This part had me a bit confused, at level 8 I can increase it by 2, at lvl 15th I can increase it by 3? Is that correct?

This is just what I am looking for. :smallbiggrin:

The campaign has already started, we have played from level 1 to 5, do you think it would be possible to just insert this classfeature even though we already started? Would you as a DM allow it?

[EDIT] Ninja'd again. =) Yeah, I know it wont be very helpful to that kind of sorcerer, I just want it because it is so cool. :smallbiggrin: And it fits her personality so much. It would be very fun to play out. :smallbiggrin:

Actually, the original Progression for my idea is always +1.
But you can increase it again but at trhe cost of hps.
1) At level 1 you can increase it by 1 or 2 but take 1d8 hp.
2) At level 8, you can increase it by +1, + 2 but 1d8 hps, or +3 but 3d8 hps.
3) At level 15, you can increase it by +1, + 2 but 1d8 hps, +3 but 3d8 hps, or +4 but take 15d8 hp.

I gave the player options.


But you can change the idea; it was just a suggestion. I only did it up in a matter of minutes.

Talic
2008-10-13, 10:22 AM
Actually, Rage mage fits it well. It's not optimized but think of it.

Multiclass to Barbarian: Character develops rage, but it's wild, unchanneled. She can't cast with it yet.

Take level of rage mage: Time with the new anger has allowed her to begin to truly bring it into herself, make it a part of who she is, rather than just a reaction to outside pressure. She learns to start harnessing casting with it, and from there on out, works her mojo with rage.

Yes, it fits the theme. No, it's not all powerful. But any class that focuses on losing focus as a pathway to power for those who gain power through study and contemplation? It's a bit... um... anti-verisimilatude... to begin with?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-13, 10:26 AM
Would Rage Mage be viable if it only lost one level of casting(it already requires multiclassing, and wasting a feat)?

Tengu_temp
2008-10-13, 10:27 AM
Thing is, that ability is always on, is a penalty as often as it's a bonus, and has no mechanic for giving you a temporary boost and then leaving you drained afterwards. It doesn't much resemble a rage.

Actually, it's a penalty 33% of time, bonus 50% of time and no difference 17% of time. Still not a rage-like ability, though.

As for the rage, I think it might make all spells Vicious (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/Vc8c0zrN3b8C17BVveU.html). Giant set this metamagic as +1, but he did mention he was pondering should it be +0 or +1, and frankly, as it's obvious from OotS, Giant is a WotC developer at heart and therefore doesn't know much about character optimization - it's much too weak for +1 and should be +0.

Kiyona
2008-10-13, 11:03 AM
Starbuck_II

Thats even better. =) Maybe you could choose to either increase caster level or DC?

Yeah, I would probably take it as a feat when I hit lvl 6. I dont expect to get it for free =)

Talic

Yeah, I suppose. It is indeed an interesting concept. She travels with a barbarian so she could have picked up som tricks from him. =) I would have to think about that though. She isnt built at all for close combat. With a 8 str and 10 con... I think losing that much spellprogression would hurt to much. I dont mind taking suboptimal choices if it fits the character, but I think this would be hitting to hard with the nerfbat. Please prove me wrong.=)

Tengu_temp

Vicious spells were awesome! Thanks for the tip. =) Would it be to much to make all her spells she cast while "raging" vicious?

Tengu_temp
2008-10-13, 11:08 AM
Vicious spells were awesome! Thanks for the tip. =) Would it be to much to make all her spells she cast while "raging" vicious?

That's exactly what I meant.

Temp.
2008-10-13, 07:53 PM
The Arcane Consumption (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Arcane_Consumption,PH2) feat gives a DC bonus to a spell at the cost of a Con penalty and fatigue. Horrible prerequisites, though.

The Arcane Spellsurge spell (Dragon Magic, level 7) quickens a spell per round up to your caster level.

Adapting the Wilder class ability might not be a bad idea, but ML are worth a lot more than CL and spell slots and PP aren't exactly comprable. I would write a feat (or replace the familiar with an ability) allowing you to add caster level as a Wilder would, but failing to boost the CL results in a lost spell (the one being cast) and a turn Dazed.

Roleplay and more labor-intensive homebrew are also options.

AstralFire
2008-10-13, 08:04 PM
A very old (March 2004! Damn!)homebrew sorcerer of mine (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-201936.html)had a Wild Surge-like ability; it was OP in retrospect, so here's how I'd redo it:

Mainline (Su): Sorcerers are considered children of the Source for a reason. Beginning at 4th level, once per encounter they are able to use a swift action to channel an intense and pure form of magic for a limited number of times daily. In essence, they rip a line of Source energy through dimensional fabric and into reality. This gives them a +2 miscellaneous bonus to spell DCs and a temporary +2 to caster level on any spells they cast for 3 rounds.

In either case, the Sorcerer is dazed for 1 round after the Mainline wears off, trying to recover from the bliss of Source immersion.

Innis Cabal
2008-10-13, 08:06 PM
It never made sense for me.

Oooooh! I'm so mad i'm going...going to...cast a spell at you! WAAGH...

Ya...

TheThan
2008-10-13, 08:15 PM
I think you should just focus on fire spells and RP the whole thing. The burning power of your rage manifests itself and torches the things you're mad at.

Kiyona
2008-10-14, 01:59 AM
Innis Cabal

Well, when you put it like that it sounds kind of stupid yes. :smallbiggrin:
I see it more like, when she gets mad she draws to much on whatever that is giving her spells, making them much more powerful, but draining her in the process. She looses judgement when she gets mad. :smallbiggrin:

TheThan

Thats what Ive been doing up til now, it does work, but it would be more fun (and dramatic) if her spells actually got more powerful when she looses her temper. Min you, it doesnt happen very often, but when it does, it would be fun if she could dish out some extra damage. And sorcerers doesnt get any class features except familiars... Thats kind of dull.

AstralFire

This is perfect! Very little bookkeeping, and I would probably be able to taje it as a feat. =) I would like it to scale with levels, just as the wild surge variant, do you think thats possible? And would you give it prerequisites?

Temp.

A cool feat, but as you say, the prereqs are aweful. Dont think that would work until much later in the game. Thanks for the suggestion though. =)

Talic
2008-10-14, 05:38 AM
Talic

Yeah, I suppose. It is indeed an interesting concept. She travels with a barbarian so she could have picked up som tricks from him. =) I would have to think about that though. She isnt built at all for close combat. With a 8 str and 10 con... I think losing that much spellprogression would hurt to much. I dont mind taking suboptimal choices if it fits the character, but I think this would be hitting to hard with the nerfbat. Please prove me wrong.=)


In that case, allow a Power Attack-like feature to Rage mage.

Allow the Mage to perform the following acts while enraged:

At level 1: Apply Empower Spell to a damage dealing spell that requires either an attack roll or a saving throw >> Apply a -4 penalty to the attack roll or a -2 penalty to the DC.

At Level 3: Apply Maximize Spell to a damage dealing spell that requires either an attack roll or a saving throw >> Apply a -6 penalty to the attack roll or a -3 penalty to the DC.

At Level 5: Apply Quicken Spell to a damage dealing spell that requires either an attack roll or a saving throw >> Apply a -8 penalty to the attack roll or a -4 penalty to the DC.

A Rage Mage may only apply one of these at a time to a spell, and may use each ability no more than once each time she rages. Applying feats in this way does not require prior preparation and does not increase the casting time.

Effectively, you either take a -2 to hit (with ranged touch spells) per metamagic level added, or a -1 to your save DC. Thus, you get more power, but a wilder, less controlled, more reckless effect.

Based on this, a Rage mage could:

Spontaneously cast a Maximized fireball (provided she had a normal fireball memorized) - If the DC was 17, it's now 14.
Cast a Magic Missile, and a Spontaneously Quickened Orb of force. If the attack roll was a +11, it's a +3.
Spontaneously Quicken a Fireball (DC 17 to DC 13) and then Spontaneously Maximize a fireball (DC 17 to 14).

However, it could not be done with Magic Missile, which does not allow a save or a saving throw.

That gives you the kind of feel that allows for greater power with the spells wielded, on the fly (chaotic), while keeping it from overpowering.