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Burley
2008-10-14, 11:25 AM
In my forthcoming game, I've ruled it to be a Gestalt with 45-point buy. I posted a while back with the campaign idea, so you can search for it, or maybe I'll put it up later.

Anyways, my question: One of the players is planning on playing a Ranger//Druid, with alternate class features for each. For ranger, the simple variant (he gives up his fighting style for fast movement and wild shape), and for Druid, he's taking the shapeshifting variant from PHB2.

Now, it seems really ridiculous and cheesy for him to give up one set of shapeshifting for a more balanced form, only to get it back in a few levels.

What do you all think? Is this going to break the game with a cheese grenade, or am I just upset about fluff?

Talya
2008-10-14, 11:28 AM
He should give up his ranger animal companion for the alt feature that lets you render your opponent flatfooted against the next attack someone else makes against them.

Personally, I'm entirely okay with that, to the extent that I'm okay with wildshape to begin with, anyway. I mean, hell, it's gestalt. He has hardly picked the most optimal gestalt combination you could come up with anyway.

Chronos
2008-10-14, 10:03 PM
I would allow it, but rule that Shapeshifting and Wildshape overrule each other, rather than stacking, so he can't get the benefits of both at once. Which will probably remove his interest in taking those variants. It might still be worthwhile, though, to free him up to take a casting PrC on the druid side while keeping up his Wildshape progression.


He has hardly picked the most optimal gestalt combination you could come up with anyway.Maybe not the most optimal, but it's still pretty good. Compared to straight druid, you gain two skill points a level and a couple of good skills to use them on (Hide and Move Silently), full BAB, and a good Reflex save in addition to Fort and Will. If you really wanted to cheese it out, though, Crystalkeep lists a variant (the Moon-Warded Ranger) from Dragon #340, which gains Wis to AC at 2nd level instead of Combat Style.

Eldariel
2008-10-15, 02:24 AM
It seems like a no problem. He isn't even trying to be efficient. He just wants to be really good at shapeshifting. Give him that. Standard Ranger Wild Shape is really poor (Medium and Small only - no Large, Huge, etc. forms) so unless he takes Master of Many Forms, I'd assume he may actually be left way behind.

Turcano
2008-10-15, 02:42 AM
As long as the variants are allowed by your DM there's no problem. You just can't take levels in two different variants (which you aren't allowed to do anyway).

Kaiyanwang
2008-10-15, 03:38 AM
IMHO, It seems odd allow both Wildshape and Shapeshift, because the second was create as an alternative system for the first.

Anyway, consider seriously the alternative class feature of the ranger that makes enemies flat footed: in a party with an able, well builded rogue you wreak havoc.

Burley
2008-10-15, 07:30 AM
Okay, on to question two (And, for future reference, I'm the DM):
Our newest player came from a group of "Roll a d20 and I'll tell you how killed the dragon" D&D players. He'd never made a character sheet before he gamed with us, and that was for 4e. My game is 3.5, so, he really doesn't know how to optimize. He seems pretty set on a Monk//Fighter. Suboptimal at best. He doesn't mind too much, because he just wants a good fist brawler. I think I can talk him out of the Fighter side, since he doesn't have a character concept other than "Fist Fighter."

Any suggestions? He seems enticed by the bonus feats... Would a Monk//Unarmed Swordsage work well?

only1doug
2008-10-15, 07:44 AM
Okay, on to question two (And, for future reference, I'm the DM):
Our newest player came from a group of "Roll a d20 and I'll tell you how killed the dragon" D&D players. He'd never made a character sheet before he gamed with us, and that was for 4e. My game is 3.5, so, he really doesn't know how to optimize. He seems pretty set on a Monk//Fighter. Suboptimal at best. He doesn't mind too much, because he just wants a good fist brawler. I think I can talk him out of the Fighter side, since he doesn't have a character concept other than "Fist Fighter."

Any suggestions? He seems enticed by the bonus feats... Would a Monk//Unarmed Swordsage work well?

Monk's maybe the side to drop if he wants to be a brawler, go fighter with improved unarmed attack and have the 2nd side of the gestalt be something useful.

hmm... try

barbarian//rogue with improved unarmed attack, sell it to him as Conan the bar-brawler. use alternate class features to avoid redundancy of Improved uncanny dodge.
Gives best Hp, best BAB, Good Skills, good fort, good reflex, poor will.
Consider varient rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) for swapping sneak attack damage for fighter feats.

bosssmiley
2008-10-15, 07:52 AM
IIRC PHB2 Shapeshift was intended as a systemic replacement for Wildshape. Systemic as in "Can Wildshape, which is known to be unworkably broken as written, and use this instead."

Reinstating Wildshape via the variant Ranger (rather than giving him Shapeshift too) is just re-introducing broken-ness through the back door.

Kaiyanwang
2008-10-15, 08:13 AM
With my group, talking about melee gestalt builds, we call Fighter "the bread" because it the base of feats and weapon proficencies (expecially if you use weapon categories from UA) where you spread the jam, honey and whatelse, as rogue ranger or so.

IMO, you can built a decent Monk//Fighter but you need a lot of splatbooks, Dragon magazine and game knowledge to do it. I don't like ToB so much, but take Swordsage//Fighter, cover with feats what maneuvers don't cover, and you have a fine and amusing class whitout a lot of effort...

only1doug
2008-10-15, 08:17 AM
Conan the Bar-brawler

Barbarian//varient rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue)
Str:18
Dex:16
Con:16
Int:12
Wis:13
Cha:8

feats: Improved unarmed attack
rogue bonus feat: Combat reflexes



skillpoints (9x4) + 9/level
skills (pick 9 to max)

(repeats crossed out on barbarian list)
The barbarian’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
The rogue’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex).






Options:
Pick a race:
Human grants more skillpoints and another feat,
half orc will give less skillpoints and make cha even worse while giving better chance to hit and more damage,
halfling and gnome are silly choices, maybe entertaining,
elves don't seem appropriate but could work.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-10-15, 08:24 AM
Okay, on to question two (And, for future reference, I'm the DM):
Our newest player came from a group of "Roll a d20 and I'll tell you how killed the dragon" D&D players. He'd never made a character sheet before he gamed with us, and that was for 4e. My game is 3.5, so, he really doesn't know how to optimize. He seems pretty set on a Monk//Fighter. Suboptimal at best. He doesn't mind too much, because he just wants a good fist brawler. I think I can talk him out of the Fighter side, since he doesn't have a character concept other than "Fist Fighter."

Any suggestions? He seems enticed by the bonus feats... Would a Monk//Unarmed Swordsage work well?

Swordsage is about a thousand times better than Monk. You want 'flying fists of fury'?

Swordsage (unarmed variant)/Bloodclaw Master (unarmed is a Tiger Claw weapon)//Lion Totem Barbarian (CompChamp version with Pounce)/whatever.

There's your Flying Fists of Fury. If you rule that unarmed attacks are a Light weapon that you can TWF, you can simulate the majority of Flurry of Blows with the TWF feat chain. Circle Kick from ToB also gives an extra unarmed attack. Pounce lets you full attack on a pounce. Raging Mongoose gives 4 extra attacks. Have fun.

monty
2008-10-15, 09:10 AM
A good simple unarmed brawler build?

Swordsage (Unarmed) 20 // Fighter 20. Three good saves, full BAB, and a crapton of feats on top of the swordsage goodness.

Burley
2008-10-15, 09:23 AM
IIRC PHB2 Shapeshift was intended as a systemic replacement for Wildshape. Systemic as in "Can Wildshape, which is known to be unworkably broken as written, and use this instead."

Reinstating Wildshape via the variant Ranger (rather than giving him Shapeshift too) is just re-introducing broken-ness through the back door.

I talked to him about this. He has said that he would only use the wildshape to turn into small animals, for escaping and junk. I don't totally believe it, but... Hey. The campaign will have plenty of ways for me to punish him.

Since the Fighter//Monk player is new, my advisor (DizzyD) has wisely advised to keep it simple. Perhaps ToB would be too complicated for him to keep track of.

Here's the entire party make-up, and you can maybe give me notes on what to watch out for. Yeah? Thanks.

Ranger//Druid (above)
Fighter//Monk (above)
Barbarian//Bard (dunno about alt features)
Barbarian//Scout (Comp. Pounce Variant... I know... I've allowed it)
Dragonfire Adept//Favored Soul (I'm really glad she chose this combo, because there will be a lot of stamina battles. Tips to help her stand out in a fight would be helpful, i.e. Increasing the reflex save DC.)