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View Full Version : A way of keeping low-power campaigns low...



FMArthur
2008-10-14, 11:38 AM
I just came up with this idea, not taken from anywhere, so I just want to run it by you guys first before I run a campaign with it - I trust the seasoned experts in this forum more than my (frequently erroneous) intuition. Can you tell me if you see anything wrong with this, if it can't work, if it can work with some changes, etc?

The whole idea is intended to avoid the general sense of omnipotence PCs get after certain levels, where the townspeople can be herded like cattle and nobody can realistically get in the PCs' way without being gigantic global-threat monsters.

Basically, my plan is that character growth 'stops' at level 10. After level 10, your next class levels give you any class features you would normally be entitled to, but they do not increase HD, BAB, saves, or skill points. Instead, that level's HD, BAB, saves and skill points overwrite a single level (from previously gained levels)'s HD, BAB, saves and skill points if they would be superior, in the same way that gestalt level benefits are decided. Character level is treated as advancing by half for each level above 10.

In fact, it's basically gestalt except that it fills up one side first (up to 10), then adds levels to another side once you've advanced past level 10, and can be repeated to have more than two sides.

Duke of URL
2008-10-14, 11:41 AM
You might want to check out the E6 variant (http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-3rd-edition-house-rules/200754-e6-game-inside-d-d-new-revision.html), which is similar, but more restrictive.

The general idea is that you stop leveling at level 6. All "levels" gained thereafter grant an additional feat, and that's it. No skill points, hit points, caster level, spells per day/known, class features, etc.

You could replace "6" with anything, honestly, so if you wanted to do this as "E10", you probably could.

Skaven
2008-10-14, 11:43 AM
10 should be fine. In my experience, 10th is the level where you start feeling like you are somebody, but you can still be taken down by a mistake or two, or a smartly planned ambush / trick.

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-10-14, 11:47 AM
So basically saves, attack bonus and hit points advance at half the normal speed?

Not a bad idea initially but it hurts meele characters a lot more than it hurts spellcasters. Spell levels, DCs and damage continues to increase at the normal pace but defences increase slower so spells become ALOT more deadly.

valadil
2008-10-14, 12:27 PM
I was going to suggest E6 too. I've never played it, but the idea intrigues me. I also like the idea that you can adjust the level depending on which spells you want people to have access to. I find magic to be weak with 1-2, reasonable at 3-4, powerful at 5, and icky after that point.

snoopy13a
2008-10-14, 12:48 PM
How about just stopping leveling altogether with no variants? At level 5 or 10 or whatever, the player simply cannot level anymore.

Duke of URL
2008-10-14, 12:49 PM
How about just stopping leveling altogether with no variants? At level 5 or 10 or whatever, the player simply cannot level anymore.

Because, for better or worse, people like their characters to grow mechanically, as well as story-wise.

It also makes sense that fighting demonic hordes, or dragons, or whatever, would make a character better at what (s)he does over time.

Fishy
2008-10-14, 12:55 PM
Anyone have experience running a campaign that started at level 6 and just plain *didn't* give out experience? You'd run the risk of having combat become same-y, but if you kept the challenges varied enough and gave out interesting magic items, it might be worth doing.

Person_Man
2008-10-14, 12:58 PM
Your proposed fix would utterly screw non-casters.

Think about it. A 17th level Wizard can still cast 9th level spells, most of which don't require a To-Hit roll. A 17th level Swordsage has 9th level manuevers, but virtually all of them require a To-Hit roll.

Casters also have easier access to protections not derived from hit points or Saves, such as Greater Invisibility, Displacement, Solid Fog, etc.

If you want a flatter progression, I suggest that you simply hand out fewer XP points at higher levels. For example, in my campaigns I generally require about 2-3 encounters to move from level 1 to 2, or from 2 to 3. After that I generally require 4-6 encounters. You could always set a higher bar, requiring 8-10 encounters past level 10.

Alternatively, you could play in Dark Sun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Sun) or some similar homebrew world (sadly they never updated it for 3.5) where everyone has class levels.

FMArthur
2008-10-14, 01:34 PM
Yeah, I can see now that this doesn't work at all. BAB is supposed to be a big part of physical attacking classes, so they get fewer class features and from there on they'd get screwed. What if I ruled that all base classes stop at 10 so that casters didn't keep scaling in power?

To the other suggestions: I'm not running a fixed-level campaign, and I can't imagine that even a single person in my group would be able to maintain interest in such a campaign. And NPCs start to become unbelievable when they get high level (if everyone's special...), but maybe I'll keep throwing in NPC advanturers around their level. But they've learned their lessons from last time and have done everything in their power to make sure people aren't sending assassins after them, so the frequency of encounters with similarly-levelled adventurers are already becoming a strain on suspension of disbelief.

valadil
2008-10-14, 01:54 PM
Here's a question for E6 players out there. Do skills stop progressing too? I mean, you could take Open Minded for bonus skill points, but eventually you'll cap at 9 ranks in each skill. Does E6 allow you to increase that at all?

Zeful
2008-10-14, 01:57 PM
Here's a question for E6 players out there. Do skills stop progressing too? I mean, you could take Open Minded for bonus skill points, but eventually you'll cap at 9 ranks in each skill. Does E6 allow you to increase that at all?

Why would need much more than that? (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=12393614&postcount=239)
I'm aware that link is about 9th level but meh.

KevLar
2008-10-14, 02:05 PM
I like very much the E6 concept (though I've never tried it), but would prefer making it E8 or E10, for the sake of Prestige Classes, which I find too flavorful to give up altogether.

Another thing I'd tweak is skills (valadil, E6 doesn't give you skill points past 6th level). I love skills, and would like them to keep advancing. That may not be practical for some of them, however. Climb, Balance etc can't go up forever if you want to keep the verisimilitude that E6 is supposed to aim for. But advancing in Knowledge makes perfect sense. Flavor-wise, it means that the character gets wiser in the ways of the world and more experienced, and is more likely to know secrets most people don't. Mechanically, it helps very much if you want the players to focus more on planning than the brute force approach of "I see it, I attack it, I kill it".

I suppose that every skill should be checked individually. Some may not advance higher than 6th level. Some may, but there should be a cap. And some could go on indefinitely, like knowledge.

Thoughts??

PS-
@Zeful: Sorry, I didn't understand. What did that link have to do with anything?

Zeful
2008-10-14, 02:12 PM
It was supposed to be a point on skill levels in D&D in responce to the TOB=Anime debate. The post it was supposed to be showing was:

I mean, just look at skill totals at 9th level and above. You're doing some crazy :censored: on a regular basis, and most of the time you're not even thinking twice about it.This deserves an illustration, I think.

9th level Bard. He has 12 ranks of Perform, started with 16 Cha and increased it twice to 18 (+4). He also has a masterwork instrument (+2) and a Circlet of Persuasion (+3). His Perform modifier is now 12+4+2+3=+21. This means that, by taking ten, he nails a 31 every time. According to the PHB, this means that by playing on street corners, he will eventually attract the attention of extraplanar beings. Gimble will be sitting around drinking and playing his lute when a genie bamfs in and asks the gnome to perform at his kid's Bar Mitzvah.

9th level Rogue. He has 12 ranks of Balance, started with 16 Dex and boosted it twice to 18 (+4). He gets a +2 synergy bonus from Tumble ranks, for a total modifier of 12+4+2=+18. Taking 10, he will, every time, be able to move at full speed across a one inch wide marble-covered beam. (18+10-5=23 for the check, 20+2(scree) =22 for the DC.)

9th level Barbarian. 12 ranks of Climb, now has 18 (+4) Strength, for a final modifier of 12+4=+16. Taking 10, he gets a 26. He can now climb most mountains while raining, moving 40 feet every 6 seconds. (Check is 26-5=21 for accelerated climbing, DC is 15+5=20 for climbing a rough natural rock surface that's slippery.)

9th level Swashbuckler. 12 ranks of Jump, 12 (+1) Strength, +2 synergy from Tumble. His modifier is 12+1+2=+15. Taking 10 gets him a 25. The female world record for the long jump is (7.52 meters)*(3.28 feet/meter) = 24.7 feet. This character beats that every time he wants to. The men's record is 8.95*3.28= 29.3 feet, which his character could swing pretty easily if he so desired. When the character rolls instead of taking 10, he can hit as much as 35 feet, blowing past the world record by two yards.

9th level Beguiler. 12 ranks in Disguise, 14 (+2) Charisma, with a disguise kit (+2). Total modifier is +16, taking 10 gets him a 26. He can disguise himself as a woman's human husband (+10 for intimate familiarity) as long as she has a Spot modifier of 6 or less.
Because it's fun to pick on Fighters, let's say this woman is Fighter. We'll generously give her a Wisdom of 14 (+2), which means she needs 4.5 ranks to beat the spread and win the check with a 26.5 (again assuming taking 10). Since spot is cross-class, the soonest she could get that many is at 6th level.

May the gods help you if this guy uses Disguise Self to boost his check by another 10. Or if he's a Bard, kicking his Charisma up another couple notches.9th level Monk. 12 ranks in sense motive, 16 (+3) Wisdom. Final modifier is 12+3=+15. Taking 10, he can instantly tell whether a person is under the effects of Charm Person or not, every time. (DC 25) And that isn't "I've a sneaking suspicion that something is wrong here" so much as it's "Hi, my name is Benedict Thelonious. Also, you're charmed."

9th level Bard again. 12 "ranks" in Speak Language nets him 12 languages, because Bards are awesome like that. There are only 20 of the things listed in the PHB, one of them is Druidic, and he starts with a few because of race and intelligence. He learns this from hanging out in bars, and in addition to everything else he can do. I don't think there are many people in the world that can boast that kind of repertoire, and finding one in his mid-20s that's also a competent in battle, magic (which we can approximate to some degree with science or technology), and whatever this guy is burning his other 5+Int skill points on is fairly definitely impossible.

9th level Ranger goes tracking. 12 ranks in Survival, 14 (+2) Wisdom, +4 from Search and Know: Nature synergy, and +2 from some manner of tracking kit. Modifier is 12+2+4+2= +20, which means he takes 10 to get a 30. To match this, the DC is going to look like this: 4+5+1+20. That comes from tracking a single Toad (+4 DC for being Diminutive) that is covering his tracks (+5) after an hour of rainfall (+1) over bare rock (20).

By 9th level, you're pretty much past the point of being able to use "It's not realistic!" as any sort of relevant complaint in a D&D environment. Oh, and on a similar note, I reference the Proud Nails (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060120a) article on the Wizards D&D page which notes that olympic archers are 7th level Rangers, the weightlifters hit 23-24 strength tops, and that a 6th level Monk with Dash can set a marathon record. (Alternatively, he could be 9th level or take the Run feat and absolutely blow it away.) Anything past that is, pretty much by definition, superhuman.
It shows what possible by 9th level.

KevLar
2008-10-14, 02:24 PM
Thanks, that was very useful actually. :smallsmile:

Hal
2008-10-14, 02:52 PM
Well, another method might just be to curtail casting by either removing full casters or giving them the progression of a partial caster (say, Bard, or Duskblade). Melee characters will still be powerful, but a sufficient mob will bring them down. Casters will still be powerful but lack the reality-altering spells you see in the higher tiers.

TheCountAlucard
2008-10-14, 08:05 PM
Level 10's not bad - keep in mind, PCs start becoming superhuman, literally, at about level 9.

Yahzi
2008-10-14, 08:45 PM
Just make your NPCs high level, too. The trick, of course, is describing why the world looks the way it does (and why there are low level adventurers) if there are 15th level wiz/fighters around.

The answer lies in making XP a tangible resource, which can be bought and sold. Now it makes perfect sense that the guy at the top is the highest level. The low levels exist because they're working their way up, and because getting killed is a mook's job. When the mooks find something tough enough to justify the high rank's time, attention, and risk, then he kills it. But make sure your players know that when they attack the Goblin lands, the only reason the Goblin ArchLich doesn't come out and murder them is because he's afraid the human High King is lying in wait for him, and the adventurers are just bait. The ArchLich won't intervene until it becomes obvious that the adventurers are wiping the floor with his mooks... which is to say, they're now high-level.

KevLar
2008-10-15, 02:12 AM
The answer lies in making XP a tangible resource, which can be bought and sold.
An interesting and original idea. I would never do anything of the sort :smalltongue:, but it is original.

First of all, it goes against the most basic assumption of D&D, that advancing in experience (which is not "tangible") makes you better. Every single rule is based on that.

Second, the guys at the top don't have to be the highest level available. No D&D setting I've ever heard of (or any place/era in the real world) can be described as a meritocracy. Even with tribal systems of organization, where the first warrior is by definition the best warrior (otherwise the mammoth will skewer him with his tusks and buh-buy warrior), there's an elder/shaman who makes the important decisions due to a custom law, and not due to his amazing talent with the spear.

In your average setting, those who wield the power (kings, nobles, religious leaders, the council of rich merchants or landowners) don't have to be supermen. All they need is a custom or written law that asserts their authority and a force to keep it (an army, a gang, a flock of fanatic believers, gold for bribing, and connections). Being the best swordsman in the realm is useful for adventuring, but if you want to rule you need a lot more than that.

(At least, that's what happens in settings I usually play in, which tend to be more realistic than heroic. Which is relevant, I think, because that's what E6 is supposed to achieve. Keep the power low enough for a game to be challenging at all times, without resorting to Elder Evils for you BBEG.)

Kaiyanwang
2008-10-15, 04:12 AM
Alternatively, you could play in Dark Sun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Sun) or some similar homebrew world (sadly they never updated it for 3.5) where everyone has class levels.

Dark Sun 3.5 version is in 2-3 issues of Dungeon and Dragon magazine, even if I don't know how much of the old version kept.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-10-15, 04:19 AM
Alternatively, you could play in Dark Sun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Sun) or some similar homebrew world (sadly they never updated it for 3.5) where everyone has class levels.

That's what you think. (http://athas.org/) It's pretty rocking, too. (The site seems to have gone through a lot of changes, but the DS3 pdfs appear to remain available.) Absolutely blows the pathetic Dragon articles out of the water.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, in my opinion), it couldn't be pitched to WotC to be published, since they put material up online.


I don't see any issue with high-level NPCs, since level is an abstract representation of a character's or creature's story-importance and the challenge it is supposed to present, rather than an objective measurement of any sort.

Satyr
2008-10-15, 05:58 AM
D&D is not a very good system for most lower powered campaigns. You can make it, but in most cases it is easier to just get and learn a new system which supports this form of the game than to convert D&D to a more gritty level.

Believe me, I tried.


But if you are trying this: The problems are almost never the class skills and traits. With some exceptions, even higher level characters are mostly limited on their activities.
The crux are magic and magical items , and to a lesser degree, the number of hitpoints.
You can have a much more low-powered feeling in a campaign if you reduce the number of magical items and make spellcasting a bit harder, even without changing much rules.

I once played in a supposedly low power campaign of cinematic grittyness, and we used te following rules, which worked surprisingly well (I can recoomend them):


E10 Rules. Characters advance normally up to level 10, afterwards they can get additional feats or skill points. For every 100 XP, a character gained a skill point, for every 1000 XP a feat.


Gestalt rules. Magic items and similar supernatural elements were rare, so the increase of character traits increased to create an adjustment for lacking accessoirs. The charactters had less toys but were more gifted on their own.


Magical items were extremely rare and had to be created by the characters themselves or as direct commisions. The exception were potions, oils and other alchemist products which worked as usual.


Characters had only 1/5 of the regular Wealth by level. At most. Haaving even a weak magical item was something great and a source of renown and respect.


All Attacks that dealt more damage than the character's constitution score lead to a Fortitude save. if the save failed, the chararacter was sickened.


All damage that was larger than twice the constitution score also lead to a Fortitude save; if the save was succesful the character was sickened, if it failed, the character was nauseated.


Armor offered additional Damage Reduction equal to half its AC Bonus.


For every three points of BAB, characters gained a +1 Bonus to their AC as an unnamed 'parry Bonus', simulating the growing combat experience.


Unnamed NPC and other extras were immediatly killed if they sufferd from more damage than their constitution score in one hit.


The maximum spell level of spellcasters was limited by their key ability bonus.


Some character classes were slightly changed so that every class had a crowning ability on 10th level. All dead levels were filled with some cool features.