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Piedmon_Sama
2008-10-14, 01:13 PM
When I was writing a post about my group's playstyle this morning, it got me thinking about the differing expectations each gaming group brings to the table. Then I started wondering how different DMs create a challenging/interesting/entertaining adventure for their groups. When you're the DM, you're part referee and part entertainer--you (ideally) want to get your players' interest, and challenge them without going overboard.

So in this thread, I want to ask the various DMs around here how they try to get that ideal combination of challenge and intrigue.

For example, I don't want to only give my players encounters that they can just bulldoze through with sheer brute force. It seems to me like that would get boring and repetative. So every so often, I throw in an encounter that simply can't be defeated by just overwhelming it. Either it's a monster immune to conventional attacks, or it's a horde of monsters that would simply zerg-rush the players if they stand their ground. When I throw something that seems unstoppable at my players, they just have to trust me that I've left them a way out if they can think of it. (In the first case, the monster had a gem in its chest that gave it Regen 10--cutting it out enabled them to defeat it. In the second, the key to victory wasn't standing and fighting, but Tumbling/Overunning/Bull-Rushing through the horde of weak monsters to escape).

The other half of my question is, how do you reward your players? I pretty much never use the standard treasure tables. Certainly not for random encounters or wandering monsters (wolves with gold? What?) My players are all pretty used to this, so when I do drop a magic item into a campaign it's a pretty big deal. What I'd rather do is use roleplaying rewards: the PCs save a village, and become the heroes of that community. For the rest of their lives, they'll always be welcomed there and given the best services the poor villagers can provide. Similarly, if the players work themselves into the esteem of a powerful Duke, Baron or Bishop, they can start seeing their prestige go up in society in general. Land grants and estates are one of my favorite ways to reward players because it's very authentically Medieval, as well as commoners putting themselves at the players' service out of hand. I've never actually rewarded a PC a title of nobility yet, but I keep thinking it would be awesome and a more satisfying thing to treasure than a +1 Flaming Sword he'll forget about in two levels.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-14, 01:46 PM
Most of the time, I reward players with raw valuables that would be of little worth to your typical adventurer--art pieces, gemstones, ancient coins, &c. It is then up to the PCs to find "buyers" for such items: just taking them to your local General Shoppe will wind up getting you an inferior return on the items, as they're not being appraised by someone versed in their collection. However, taking, say, a painting found in a dragon's lair to an art dealer will likely fetch you a significant sum of money, particularly if the piece of art happens to be from a popular or influential artist.

Not only does this make getting rid of their acquisitions into more than just "We visit the shop", it also is closer to a real economy and allows the PCs to build relationships with NPCs that are atypical yet still may be useful or informative for particular topics. Example: say a sorceror is turning people he doesn't like in town into stone and then selling them as statuary to rich people. An art dealer versed in statuary may be able to recognize that these pieces aren't so much carved statue as they are flesh to stone victims.

The other benefit is that it allows the PCs to buy the magic items they desire (or upgrade their existing ones), rather than taking what's given to them.

valadil
2008-10-14, 02:02 PM
I usually run hard combats with a weird twist. I like to see the players adapt to the twist. Ideally it will be something to make the battle ground dynamic.

In my last long term game my players complained that the combats were too hard. It wasn't that they minded a challenge. They didn't feel like they were becoming more powerful because each time the leveled the enemies leveled twice. I've since started giving them more ego boosting throwaway encounters or encounters with large numbers of enemies (traditionally I've avoided putting too many NPCs on the table because I want the players actions to take up more time than the GM actions. On the other hand giving them a fight with 10 dudes where 4 used to be a challenge is a great way to boost their egos without giving them an easy fight).

For rewards I'm loot heavy, especially towards the end of the game. I equip my NPCs like they're PCs, but they're a couple levels higher. When the players start working their way through NPC enemies they collect a lot of good gear. For RP rewards I do things a little differently. I don't do XP at all. Players level when I say they level. When players do something awesome or amusing I give them a fate chip, which I borrowed from Deadlands. A fate chip can be given back to me when the player wants to fudge the dice in his own favor. They're more powerful when used for character reasons. For instance, a sly scoundrel shouldn't get tongue tied just because the player has a low charisma. Fate chips let players play the characters they want to play. I've written this up in more depth at my GMing blog (http://gm.thuranni.net/?p=73).

Fax Celestis
2008-10-14, 02:10 PM
An addition: if I do provide my PCs with weaponry, I usually make it a legacy item (as seen in Weapons of Legacy) or an Aspect Weapon (here (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Aspect_Items); a system I'm not done with yet).

Prometheus
2008-10-14, 02:19 PM
, I want to ask the various DMs around here how they try to get that ideal combination of challenge and intrigue
You're OP is probably very close to what I aim for. Certainly D&D wouldn't be D&d if it didn't have a quite regular stream of combat and combat scenarios, but that doesn't mean it always has to be run straight. I try to have encounter with challenges, handicaps, or different combat goals. Examples: Monster chained to the place that you have to get to, Monster to big to fight that has to be sneaked past or run from, three or four-way fight, a friendly NPC is found with a rope attached to each limb attached to a bandit riding a horse-defeat the bandits before he is drawn and quartered, a fortress that has to be infiltrated when it is too difficult to kill everyone there that has defenses, defending a fortress with a constant stream of attackers, combat with vulnerable escorts or hostages or prisoners, destroy the item/flip the switch in order to hurt the monster, dangerous playing field.

Other than combat, I also try to make excuses to have puzzles, mysterious plots, NPC dialogue, and large-scale strategy.


The other half of my question is, how do you reward your players?Dungeons tend to have rolled treasure, but it usually isn't on the monster's person. Hostile NPCs and other humanoids tend to have specifically tailored treasure that they use in combat. Also, in every game I homebrew items for the players to find that makes for interesting finds. Examples, a box that unleashes a massive flock of pigeons and recharges, the items in my signature, magic weapons that can only be sold on the black market, various alchemical substances.

When quest-givers don't give treasure (they usually don't), the PCs get favors instead. Examples: a helpful NPC temporarily joins the party, a gnome tricks out the parties wagon/keep, draw from the deck of many things, free raise dead when you need it next, a safe-haven kingdom. I actually did have a player get a title of nobility when she married a small nomad king. It worked out well, because it provided an in-game explanation of her Leadership feat and later another player's Stronghold feat.

Piedmon_Sama
2008-10-14, 02:21 PM
An addition: if I do provide my PCs with weaponry, I usually make it a legacy item (as seen in Weapons of Legacy) or an Aspect Weapon (here (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Aspect_Items); a system I'm not done with yet).

I do this too, sort of. Right now the Cleric in my campaign carries a +2 Holy Warhammer, which he picked up at 3rd level. At first it was an incredibly powerful item, but also the only magic weapon that appeared in the game. I'm not that organized, so now that he's reached a level where it's getting too weak for him I'll just add a new effect or enhancement. (Fortunately it's a two-player game and the other PC is a monk who doesn't need weapons anyway, plus the Cleric's secondary character is a Gnome Bard with a homebrewed four-barrel repeating musket. Once he gets powerful enough, I'll just make new enhancements for it like rifling and a scope, autoloaders and so on).

Doomsy
2008-10-14, 03:19 PM
I always use legacy or artifact weapons and armor when it comes to magical gear. One of the things I truly hate about D&D is the basic generic nature of magic. It is supposed to be special, not mass produced.

Hal
2008-10-14, 03:58 PM
Varied encounters are always good.

Sometimes, it's good to let players get the drop on their encounters, rather than the other way around. It gets old when you're always reacting to the world, rather than being proactive, especially if you have abilities that trigger when you get the drop on an opponent (Trapsmiths, for example).

One battle I did was to have the players hold a bridge against an army of undead. They had to fight off waves of low-level undead. It was fun, because the slow taxing of their resources made them reconsider old strategies. Another one I really liked was sending my players through goblin infested hills. The area they were walking were littered with traps. If the players saw the traps ahead of time, they were generally safe. If they triggered a trap, the goblins would pop out and attack for a few rounds, retreating if the players clearly had the upper hand.

There are lots of ways to do it, but you're right to want to try.

Raum
2008-10-14, 05:33 PM
So in this thread, I want to ask the various DMs around here how they try to get that ideal combination of challenge and intrigue.

For example, I don't want to only give my players encounters that they can just bulldoze through with sheer brute force. It seems to me like that would get boring and repetative. So every so often, I throw in an encounter that simply can't be defeated by just overwhelming it. I prefer to avoid thinking in terms of "encounters". Any encounters are almost incidental to the plot. They happen if it makes sense based on NPC and PC goals and actions. How hard they are depends on who the PCs are picking a fight with...if they decided to attack Oberon they should expect to die fast. The other end of the spectrum may be city punks who'll run at the first sign of anything unusual.

It helps to divorce character advancement from encounters if you go with this method.


The other half of my question is, how do you reward your players? Rewards, as with encounters, depend on the situation. They may well become wanted by the authorities instead of rewarded.

AslanCross
2008-10-14, 06:19 PM
I try my best to plan for as many possible route splits as possible, which is a direct consequence of letting the players have control over the flow of the action. If they know their actions in combat and their choices out of combat matter, they'll appreciate the changes that come their way.

The current arc of my campaign has to do with the players trudging off in the name of their kingdom to a rebellious marquis on the border. There were several ways to get there: The high road, the forest, and the sea route.

The high road was the most obvious route, but the players already expected an ambush. The forest was the stealthiest, but longest; they also had to bring along a whole bunch of soldiers with them, and it would take them more than a month of travel to get through. The sea route was the quickest, but would involve pirate attacks. Eager to experience something new (and since it was the quickest), they chose the sea route.

Needless to say they had a lot of fun.

As for rewarding, I prefer to use the tables in the Magic Item Compendium. They make a lot more sense than the DMG tables.

ufo
2008-10-14, 06:26 PM
I like to put players under pressure by giving them a lot of responsibility roleplay-wise, meaning that their choices may have a lasting effect on the campaign world. This keeps the game tense and interesting.

Other than that, lots of open-ended possibilities. I like to allow the players to approach a task in as many different ways as possible, or turn the situation around completely. Except of assassinating that guy, warning him. Except of busting that arms' deal for the local authorities, players can choose to take the money. This also keeps the DM on his toes as he will have to make additions on-the-fly to his plans.