Roy's Risky Archon (And another allignment thread. Sorry)

[DBJack]

Now, before I begin, I don't know much about Archons outside of the comic. I've never played D&D, although I did play D&D based games such as Baldur's Gate. (Based on 2nd Edition Rules) So I might be completely off, and if I am, I apologize.

Roy's Archon is a knowledgable guide of a lawful good person in a lawful good afterlife. It dreams of becoming a deva, a being of true law and good. Yet Roy's Archon is breaking the laws of the lawful afterlife, for the sake of good, and rationalizing it in a chaotic way.

Roy's Archon is confident that, if caught, the punishment will be minor, so it might as well help (Chaotic?). And it is exploiting loopholes. (Chaotic to Neutral, depending on your stance) So is Roy's Archon being lawful, breaking rules set by beings of law in an attempt to save the world? Sounds fairly neutral good. Could Roy's Archon lose its chance to become a deva because of this, or would it be overlooked as it as an attempt to save the world?

When Roy was being examined to enter LG Afterlife, he was told that he was only a mortal, and he was trying, which is what mortals can only do. Roy's Archon is not a mortal. It is a denizen of the LG Afterlife. It would be graded on a harsher scale than a mortal because, well, it should know better.

At the same time, the door states that it is upon a person's honor not to use the elevator, so the heat might fall on Roy for using chaotic methods to save the world again, already discussed with his Deva.

I'm not saying that Roy's Archon is wrong. This is probably the best way to help save the world, and it gets to contribute to the side of good. But does it make sense in an allignment standpoint?

[Finwe]

All it proves is that the archon is willing to promote good at the expense of law, which points to being more good than lawful. Lawful characters may occasionally commit chaotic acts: being lawful simply means that the lawful acts significantly outweigh the chaotic. If he ever wants to become a being of pure law and good, he'll probably have to reign in his chaotic tendencies, but this minor chaotic act is hardly an indicator that he is chaotic or even neutral.

[Porthos]

*points at sig*

And, also, last time I checked, it's Lawful Good, not LAWFUL Good. In other words even if you presuppose that the Archon is acting in an un-Lawful fashion (and I most certainly do not suppose that) as long as he doesn't make a habit of it, it's OK.

Or to put it yet another way, Archons Ain't Modrens. :smalltongue:

[Dreamthiev]

The Archon isn't breaking any rules, he's following the letter of the rules in such a way to get what he wants--in this case to help Roy out.

The archon is "working the system" to its own advantage, but that's not the same as working outside the system. I think if he was actually breaking any rules he'd have more to worry about than an angry phone call.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

I'm not saying that Roy's Archon is wrong. This is probably the best way to help save the world, and it gets to contribute to the side of good. But does it make sense in an allignment standpoint?

Double *sigh*. Ninja'd by Dreamthiev. I knew I shouldn't have written so much.

Yes, yes, the Archon may be said to be acting "chaotic" in this particular case but still be considered "lawful" overall but I think the OP question goes to heart of many alignment debates.

Many assume that chaotic alignment means you don't follow rules. This is silly as it would imply your chaotic character would be breaking laws all the time. Even Belkar does not do this. Most of the time, Belkar does think about whether he will get away with his action before he does it.

Many assume that lawful means that you always follow the rules. How does this explain Miko dying with a lawful alignment? Miko seemed to follow only her own rules. While it is true that Miko relied solely on used her own judgment, she always followed the obligation given to her by the Sapphire Guard

There is always an INTERPRETATION that needs to be made when using the concepts chaos, law, good and evil -- especially when the concept is being used by a fictional character in a game or story.

The Archon in this case is using the law to justify his actions. He finds a loophole in the law to allow him and Roy and Roy's grandpa to use the elevator. Now a higher up may disagree with the Archon's INTERPRETATION of the law and punish him.

There was a series on life in Hell -- the lawful evil D&D afterlife/plane of existence -- in the old Dragon magazine once. Hell was imagined as a sort of corporate structure except with reports and weekly meetings on torturing souls. And like any office there were office intrigues except those involved corruption, betrayal and murder. Every devil -- the D&D incarntions of lawful evil -- was lawful but at the same time was trying to get ahead. There was a strict chain of command but every devil was involved in plots to sell secrets or subvert orders or murder his superior or rival.

Drow are the followers of Lolth and are commonly described to be as chaotic as their goddess. Yet Drow are typically depicted as living in a very rule bound and hierarchical society. If they were truly chaotic, shouldn't their structured society fall apart?

Again, it's a matter of INTERPRETATION. In a game of D&D or in a novel or webcomic based on D&D when dealing with the concepts of good, evil, law and chaos the characters -- through the gamers or authors -- must INTERPRET the concept. This allows for a lot of wiggle room.

Now if, for example, you act like a jerk and annoying play your chaotic neutral character as a character who constantly does random and disruptive acts, then you are necessairly doing so under your INTERPRETATION of what chaos means. Hopefully your fellow gamers will intepret your behavior to mean that you should not be invited back to the table.

If however you play your chaotic neutral character as someone who always follows his word but not someone who always follows the law or as someone who defends his "free" realm against a neighboring tyrant or someone who justifies his means by his ends or in any other number of ways, then you are, as necessary, INTERPRETING the concept of chaos for yourself and your character. But more importantly you are doing so in an interesting manner that doesn't disrupt your fellow gamers.

Similarly, if you write a D&D based story in which you use D&D alignment but all characters of an alignment always behave the same then most readers will find the characters straightjacketed and the story boring.

[nargbop]

1 vote for Roy's Archon being replaced by someone using illusions. Like Roy's dad replacing the representative of law at the last trial.

Err... hmm. Maybe not, considering the numbers of people with True Sight around. Never mind the beuracracy of heaven, which you've got to think checks on people (and archons) once in a while.

[Chronos]

Drow are the followers of Lolth and are commonly described to be as chaotic as their goddess. Yet Drow are typically depicted as living in a very rule bound and hierarchical society. If they were truly chaotic, shouldn't their structured society fall apart?Yes, and it does. Drow society is continually falling apart. The only "law" is "don't get caught".

[Green-Shirt Q]

I don't think there is any question of the archon not being lawful. The only thing I would even consider is whether or not he has some restrained evil. :smalltongue:

Basically, a hint of evilness that I see comes from this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html), when Roy's archon says "that's so I don't strangle smartass newbies". This, of course, could be just a joke. Either by Rich or by the archon himself.

[Warren Dew]

Could Roy's Archon lose its chance to become a deva because of this, or would it be overlooked as it as an attempt to save the world?

Perhaps this is why Roy's Archon isn't already a deva.

[hamishspence]

Stictly, in core D&D, devas are servants of the gods, who can be of any good alignment.

If archons can be promoted to higher archons not devas, Roy's could become hound archon, and continue all the way up to Throne Archon.

However, OoTS might not cover those above Lantern Archon rank.

[Jorrath_Zek]

They are two "Laws".

Only employees can use the Elevator
Roy's Archon has to stay with Roy

What the law does not say is, "Non-Employees can not ride in the elevator or assist in the elevator's use."

So Technically, there's no law against what Roy's Archon has done. He's using the LAW in a way typically done by Lawful Evil characters to justify bending one law by obeidence to another... Lawful.

However, it's not an Evil act since he's not doing it with a selfish intent, but instead to do what he can to assist in saving the world (the greater Good)... Good.

In short, Roy's Archon is being "Lawful Good", which doesn't mean Stupid.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Yes, and it does. Drow society is continually falling apart...

and rebuilt. Drama trumps Law, Chaos and Probability.

[Porthos]

In short, Roy's Archon is being "Lawful Good", which doesn't mean Stupid.

Exactly. Thank you. :smallsmile:

*takes a club and starts hammering the myth of Lawful Stupid again* http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a35/BuckGodot/Icons/hammer.gif

[Kranden]

His Archon is chaotic evil end of thread.

[Callista]

What Roy's archon is doing is within the letter of the law. It's also within the spirit of the law, which is, "don't let petitioners skip the climb up the mountain". Roy's going down, not up; he's not missing any of the character-buildingness.

A little iffy, maybe; but nowhere out of the range of a lawful good creature. It's like a cop parking in a poorly-marked handicapped spot to stop an armed robbery.

[Demented]

The Archon already used it to get upstairs quickly. Note what Roy says.

They're just using it to get downstairs because tumbling down a hill has a distinct risk of ruining the mom-balaya.

[SPoD]

Archons are inherently Lawful Good; they do not have free will the way that humans do. If the actions Roy's Archon took were not within bounds for Lawful Good, then he would not take them. Maybe they lean one way or the other, but he's in no danger of changing alignment.

[dps]

And it is exploiting loopholes. (Chaotic to Neutral, depending on your stance)


I would consider exploiting loopholes to be extremely lawful behavior.

[silvadel]

Just because you are an outsider doesnt mean you can't fall.... It doesnt happen often but it does happen.

Actually roy's archon seems a lot like roy -- which is probably not a coincidence.

[Ancalagon]

"Lawful good" does not - still - equal "lawful stupid". The focus usally is on the GOOD part, not the LAWFUL one. Miko put her focus on LAWFUL and that was - apparently - wrong.