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View Full Version : Why are Ninjas underpowered? (3.5)



Tempest Fennac
2008-10-15, 04:11 AM
Why is the Ninja class seen as being underpowered? Apart from Sudden Strike not being as easy to use as Sneak Attack, I can't really see anything wrong with the class.

kamikasei
2008-10-15, 04:25 AM
Well, one specific criticism I've heard leveled at it is that it only really works if you're on your own - it's hard to have a ninja in a party in the same way you can have a rogue in a party. Thus, it's difficult for a ninja character to do anything in an ordinary session.

bosssmiley
2008-10-15, 04:27 AM
Q: Why are Ninjas underpowered?
A: Coz there are too many of them (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConservationOfNinjitsu). Kill a few of them off. :smallwink:

Anything a D&D ninja can do a UMD rogue can already do better. Ninja is a class in search of a role greater than fanboi bait.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-15, 04:29 AM
I never heard that explanation before, kamikasei. I thought they were decsent as far as disabling traps and handling some social situations went, though. I never understood that cliche to be honest, bosssmiley (I would have thought that a group of Ninjas would be able to resist opponants better then just 1 ninja).

kamikasei
2008-10-15, 04:38 AM
I never heard that explanation before, kamikasei. I thought they were decsent as far as disabling traps and handling some social situations went, though.

The problems with the class itself come first, and then the "doesn't play well with others" comes in when you try to play to the ninja's strengths (by running it on its own) or have allies help it out (which doesn't synergize with its abilities). The core of the problem IIRC is that its combat strength depends on stealth and surprise, so it can take down enemies on its own well enough but not fight in a group the way a rogue can with a flanking buddy. But I forget all the detailed criticisms of the class and its abilities, so take the above with a pinch of salt.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-10-15, 04:39 AM
It's a sarcastic meme about a trope. In any movie or videogame, the danger of a ninja encounter or attack is inversely proportional to the number of ninjas. A single ninja is a dangerous villain; twenty ninjas are all trivial mooks.

The class never seemed appealing to me. Gimmicky, weak, or weirdly limited special abilities. Rogues are just better at it. Ninjas aren't weaker in a party, it's just that their abilities are geared toward operating alone, and they don't need to. The focus of their abilities is wasted, and they don't really synergise that well. The more generalist rogue is better.

I still like the idea of using the class for NPCs. (Drow ninjas ftw. They'd operate singly anyway.)

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-15, 04:42 AM
That sounds right as far as Sudden Strike goes (I'd probably replace it with normal Sneak Attack due to how Sudden Strike isn't necessary from a fluff perspective). I think their Ki abilities are seen as weak as well. (I know what Bosssmilie was refering to, Tsotha-lanti. That's something I could never understand about Revenge of Shinobi for the Megadrive/Genesis).

Tsotha-lanti
2008-10-15, 04:50 AM
Oh, right, referring to the idea of ninjas not actually functioning as a party in D&D.

The reason ninjas don't work well with anyone - including each other - is that their attacks require attacking from concealment, basically. They've got some invisibility powers to help, but what it essentially means is that you want to fight enemies entirely on your own terms, and you want to take a long time at it - as long as is necessary, generally. This isn't that surprising - it's an "assassin" class. But this obviously doesn't work with allies - are they expected to just sit it out? It absolutely does not work with PCs - what do the other players do while the ninja fights?

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-15, 04:54 AM
How would you alter Ninjas to make them more practical for use in a party apart from my "replace Sudden Strike with Sneak Attack" idea?

Tsotha-lanti
2008-10-15, 05:22 AM
I'd replace them with rogues.

Also, the ninja PrC in Oriental Adventures was nice, as I recall.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-15, 05:23 AM
I'll look that up thanks. Sadly, Rogues don't get Ki Powers.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-10-15, 05:28 AM
Fortunately, those are the weak and weirdly limited powers that make the class suck more...

The OA ninja got all the essential ninja powers, and they weren't spread over 20 levels, but 10.

KIDS
2008-10-15, 05:40 AM
If you are a PC, Ninja does not give you enough invisibility/Ghost Step to be effective at your role (whereas rogue most frequently just needs to flank). However, Ninja has some other perks which are then offset by lower skill points and inferior skill list. But I still like them much more and almost always play them over Rogues.

If you toss one in as NPC (enemy), you will end up with a possible TPK for the party, since unlike the normal PC who needs to save his Ki Power, the enemy one can just unload it all in one fight. Fight vs. an enemy that is invisible and sudden strikes you for 10 rounds in a row = death.

KevLar
2008-10-15, 05:41 AM
In Oriental Adventures, there's no Ninja class, but a PrC Ninja Spy. His only Ki related ability is being able to hold his breath longer (unimpressive, I know), but he gets 3 exotic proficiencies and a lot of goodies with all the right flavor. Slow fall, water walk, a huge bonus to acrobatics, poison use and immunity, improved evasion (evasion is a prerequisite), alter self at will, hide in plain sight, slippery mind and -eventually- dimension door 1/day. He also gets sneak attack (+3d6 in 10 levels) and 3 good saves.

A much better bargain, as far as I'm concerned, but you can't take it before 8th level, IIRC.

JeminiZero
2008-10-15, 05:56 AM
I'll look that up thanks. Sadly, Rogues don't get Ki Powers.


Maybe use a 1 Trapfinder / X Swordsage, with Able Learner? That way you get nifty maneuvers (which you can fluff as Ki powers), can work well with a party, and still act as a skill monkey.

lord_khaine
2008-10-15, 05:59 AM
i allways thought one of the best ninja's you could make was a swordsage stocked up on shadow powers, maybe with a rogue level or 2 for skills.

Project_Mayhem
2008-10-15, 06:07 AM
Hmm. I had pretty good fun playing a ninja in a group. Mind you, we had two stealth orientated characters as our main fighters, so we based our strategy around that. Basically, with my ninja and the swordsages stealth, and the bards illusions, we normally got surprise. Then we'd shank 'em, and the bard and dread necro would sling spells/ music.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-15, 06:07 AM
That would work well thanks. I know that 1 dice-worth of Sneak Attack won't be that useful, but which Trapfinding class do you think is the best one for level 1? I'd say Rogue due to the skill points. (Able Learner causes all of the class skills that you've had access to to count as in-class skills for your other classes, right?)

kamikasei
2008-10-15, 06:20 AM
That would work well thanks. I know that 1 dice-worth of Sneak Attack won't be that useful, but which Trapfinding class do you think is the best one for level 1? I'd say Rogue due to the skill points. (Able Learner causes all of the class skills that you've had access to to count as in-class skills for your other classes, right?)

Beguiler for good skills and a few handy spells might be good (disguise self and the like). Not great, but good. Depends on your game's multiclassing rules how much of a hit the lower BAB will be.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-15, 06:23 AM
I forgot about multi-classing. To be fair, unless you use the Trapsmasher Barbarian (which would result in more HPs and less skill points), you would end up with less BAB regardless of which class you pick, unless you use the Trapfinding Ranger.

Tengu_temp
2008-10-15, 06:24 AM
How would you alter Ninjas to make them more practical for use in a party apart from my "replace Sudden Strike with Sneak Attack" idea?

Swordsage focusing on Shadow Hand, with a dip into Rogue. So, basically, what JeminiZero said.

It's funny how many things are better with ToB.

KevLar
2008-10-15, 06:25 AM
Able Learner causes all of the class skills that you've had access to to count as in-class skills for your other classes, right?
Yes, and also even cross class skills cost 1 (instead of 2) skill points.
Classes that give you trapfinding at 1st level are Rogue, Spellthief, Beguiler, Ninja and Scout. (I hope I'm not forgetting anything.) I agree that Beguiler might be a good alternative to Rogue.

Eldariel
2008-10-15, 06:29 AM
I was always partial for the "Ninja of the Crescent Moon" PrC from Sword & Fist. You get full BAB, Sneak Attack, Monk-AC, full saves, Poison Use, a variety of invisibility/gaseous form/etherealness-like abilities, silencing strikes (really handy against casters), opportunist, full speed Hide & Move Silently with take 10 and Blindsight 60'. Oh yeah, and there's the weird "Kuji-Kiri"-ability, which is basically Hypnotic Patterns as a Charisma-based spell-like. Since it's their only Charisma-based ability, it isn't amazing though. But I think the rest of the abilities are good enough.

The only drawbacks are that you indeed tend to need Monk-levels to enter (or waste 3 feats - IUS, Deflect Arrows and Quick Draw), and you can't enter before level 8 due to the skill prerequisites. Still, I feel it makes for a very decent "Ninja PrC". Requiring "Improved Unarmed Strike" makes no sense though as it doesn't advance unarmed strikes. I'd personally lower the prerequisites so that you could enter on 6 or so to finish the PrC off on 15. At that point, gaining Ethereal Jaunt and such still actually means something. Good news is that Ninjas only lose Wis to AC and the class AC bonus if they use armor, so they can actually do that just fine. Mithril Breast coupled with Swordsage dip for Wis to AC in Light Armor is awesome, and a heavier armor with Wisdom+Dex dump works just as well as it does for Fighter (except you're still stealthier).

Overall, thanks to full BAB, full SA progression and some nifty class features, it's quite ok as a class. Of course, you'd really want UMD in class, but since you'll probably want to take some Rogue-levels for some starting SA anyways, that should be no problem.

AslanCross
2008-10-15, 06:48 AM
There were a bunch of "Jutsu" feats that came out in Dragon Magazine that gave additional ki powers. Performing these jutsus is a swift action and require both hands to be free (which I handwaved away in my campaign since it conjures ridiculous images of American Ninja and Naruto)---heck, Wizards can perform their somatic components with only one hand.

A number of them give skill boosts, but some give nifty abilities---the Shadow Puppet Jutsu, for example, makes the target flat-footed until the end of its next turn (Will Save Negates).

The Ringing Fist Jutsu allowed one's Unarmed attacks vs objects to produce either a shatter or knock effect.

These really should've been written into CAdv. They give the Ninja more latitude.

JeminiZero
2008-10-15, 06:51 AM
Yes, and also even cross class skills cost 1 (instead of 2) skill points.
Classes that give you trapfinding at 1st level are Rogue, Spellthief, Beguiler, Ninja and Scout. (I hope I'm not forgetting anything.) I agree that Beguiler might be a good alternative to Rogue.


Theres also Factotum, PsyRogue as well as various other classes which can get trapfinding as alternate class features.

PsyRogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) gives you a power point pool, which qualifies you for the Psi-Med/Elusive Dance/Psi-Weapon/Deep Impact combo. The only thing scarier than a Swordsage with Mountain Hammer, is a swordsage who can use Mountain Hammer as a touch attack.

Keeping in mind alternate Class features, you might also take Rogue and replace sneak attack with fighter feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue). 1 Rogue would then net you a nifty bonus feat, see if you can talk your DM into waiving the 1 BAB requirement for weapon finesse.

Edit: Alternatively, see if you can convince your DM that the Ninja and Swordsage Wis bonus to AC stack.

Brauron
2008-10-15, 08:51 AM
The other issue I've encountered with a Complete Adventurer Ninja (one of which was a PC in the horrible D&D campaign I was in last year, played by a guy who thinks Naruto is an accurate portrayal of "real world" ninjas) is that they get Evasion ridiculously late in the game.

Heh, when we were doing character creation for that game last year, we kept trying to tell the guy, "a rogue in footie pajamas is superior in every way to the Ninja."

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-15, 08:54 AM
I hadn't noticed the Evasion problem before (it doesn't really make sense). It's depressing if he things Ninjas are like that in real life.

Tokiko Mima
2008-10-15, 09:45 AM
Don't forget the Shadow Sun Ninja PrC. It's got a ton of unique skills, and combines well with a Swordsage X/Monk 2 build and gets a decent manuever progression. It's a much more playable ninja.

Zeta Kai
2008-10-15, 09:46 AM
I'm surprise no one has mentioned the ninja's focus on poison, which is an underpowered mechanic. The are very few poisons in the SRD that can actually kill a person in a useful amount of time (IE less than a minute), none of them can do so reliably, & none of them can increase potency with added dosage. This is very different from the real world, in which literally everything is a poison, in a sufficient dose. I've never understood why poisons in D&D are so weak, or why a ninja would want to rely on their use.

Starbuck_II
2008-10-15, 10:00 AM
I'm surprise no one has mentioned the ninja's focus on poison, which is an underpowered mechanic. The are very few poisons in the SRD that can actually kill a person in a useful amount of time (IE less than a minute), none of them can do so reliably, & none of them can increase potency with added dosage. This is very different from the real world, in which literally everything is a poison, in a sufficient dose. I've never understood why poisons in D&D are so weak, or why a ninja would want to rely on their use.

What? There are good poisons in DMG:

Deathblade (injury), black lotus extract (throw it at them), and purple worm poison (injury).

Deathblade can kill a common man in 1 minute by average rolls. 3.5 + 7=10.5 most commoners have 10 con so few survive on average if they can make a DC 20 Fort save.
Heck, make them helpless with Purple Worm poison: DC 24 Fort save or lose Str. Same deal 10.5 Str loss.

Person_Man
2008-10-15, 10:09 AM
Why Ninja are underpowered:


Fewer Skill points then the Rogue, and no UMD.
MAD (Dex + Wis, and to a lesser extent Con and Int).
Sudden Strike can't be activated by flanking. At low levels, you can pretty much use Sneak Attack every round, but Sudden Strike is limited to the first round of combat and your Ki use.
Depending on your DM, Poison use can be Evil and expensive.
Virtually every other class ability can be easily replicated with feats, magic items, and/or low level spells.
If you made a list of everything you wanted to do as a Ninja, you could easily do that as a Rogue/Assassin (core!), but better.


My homebrew fix for Ninja is that they can use any Ki power as an Immediate action (instead of a Swift Action), and they get Wis bonus uses of their Ki power every combat (instead of Wis bonus + 1/2 their Ninja level every day).

Or better yet, just play a Swordsage.

Lord Tataraus
2008-10-15, 12:43 PM
As others have said, all the ninja has in the way of class features is copies of other spells and class features that have been nerfed (ghost step and sudden strike). I'm playing a Unarmed Swordsage/Shadow Sun Ninja and I'm very much a ninja character and far more effective. So far, in the combats we've had I have not been hit once and was hidden for about 75% of the time, leaping onto enemies from the shadows and ripping them apart in one hit (got to love Tiger Claw maneuvers). That is a ninja I like to play, I even have sneak attack thanks to Assassin's Stance and I can do poison-esque maneuvers via Shadow Hand to drain Str and Con and the best part is I can use these abilities unlimited times per day, though only once per combat.

Though admittedly, I do have some cheese ability with a strange quirk where there is an undead in the party thus with the Touch of Shadow Sun I have infinite healing capabilities...

Fax Celestis
2008-10-15, 01:19 PM
I'll look that up thanks. Sadly, Rogues don't get Ki Powers.

Mine do. Well, kinda.

Temp.
2008-10-15, 05:09 PM
I still can't tell the in-game distinction between an Assassin and a Ninja. Ninjas use poison, turn invisible and can occasionally teleport around. Assassins do the same. Ninjas have more skill points, but less of an emphasis on Intelligence, so that works out to be about the same.

The differences I see are that Assassins benefit from splatbook support, have access to real sneak attack, less MAD, UMD and have more maleable fluff.


So for the "Ki-powered ninja" feel, I would say Assassin or mimic the Shadow Hand Swordsage suggestion.

Starbuck_II
2008-10-15, 05:25 PM
I still can't tell the in-game distinction between an Assassin and a Ninja. Ninjas use poison, turn invisible and can occasionally teleport around. Assassins do the same. Ninjas have more skill points, but less of an emphasis on Intelligence, so that works out to be about the same.

The differences I see are that Assassins benefit from splatbook support, have access to real sneak attack, less MAD, UMD and have more maleable fluff.


So for the "Ki-powered ninja" feel, I would say Assassin or mimic the Shadow Hand Swordsage suggestion.

Assasins show up from detect evil and Ninja don't.

Collin152
2008-10-15, 05:33 PM
Assasins show up from detect evil and Ninja don't.

*Bewitched nose wrinkle*
Now they don't.

JaxGaret
2008-10-15, 05:37 PM
Assasins show up from detect evil and Ninja don't.

I thought we all agreed to drop the alignment restrictions on classes? :smallsmile:

Besides, a Rogue/Avenger is the same thing, but Good.

AceOfFools
2008-10-15, 09:47 PM
My experience with ninja was that they were not balanced.

In any given round, they are in one of two states.

A: invisible + two-weapon fighting for massive damage means that they challenge every other class for damage output whilst being virtually invincible (because of being so hard to target).

B: Fighting something that can perceive them, where they are only marginally less squishy than a wizard, but with none of the abilities that make a wizard useful (and with none of the defense mechanisms of that class, such as flight, blur...)

So you basically have two option with ninja: their invicible or hosed. Considering the numerous ways to get over invis (glitterdust, farie fire, scent, blind-fight negates the massive damage, uncanny dodge), it can quickly become a case of feeling like your getting screwed by the game master if you're prevented from god-modding.

As far as ninja prestige calsses go, I always found shadow-dancer works wonderfully, provided you aren't looking for massive sneak attack.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-16, 01:34 AM
What do you mean by god-modding, AceOfFools? I've never heard the term used outside of free-form RPing. Avengers only need to be non-Chaotic by the way (to be fair, I'm in favour of dropping alignment restictions for Monks, Bards and Barbarians while changing Ur-Priests to Any Chaotic).

Yessod
2008-10-17, 12:57 AM
What? There are good poisons in DMG:
Deathblade can kill a common man in 1 minute by average rolls.

So the best poisons you can buy, the really expensive ones, can on average kill a nameless commoner? And you think that's good?

Temp.
2008-10-17, 01:40 AM
So the best poisons you can buy, the really expensive ones, can on average kill a nameless commoner? And you think that's good? But you wouldn't sink that much money into poisons if they weren't good, would you? They must be great.

Starbuck_II
2008-10-17, 06:40 AM
My experience with ninja was that they were not balanced.

In any given round, they are in one of two states.

A: invisible + two-weapon fighting for massive damage means that they challenge every other class for damage output whilst being virtually invincible (because of being so hard to target).

B: Fighting something that can perceive them, where they are only marginally less squishy than a wizard, but with none of the abilities that make a wizard useful (and with none of the defense mechanisms of that class, such as flight, blur...)

So you basically have two option with ninja: their invicible or hosed. Considering the numerous ways to get over invis (glitterdust, farie fire, scent, blind-fight negates the massive damage, uncanny dodge), it can quickly become a case of feeling like your getting screwed by the game master if you're prevented from god-modding.

As far as ninja prestige calsses go, I always found shadow-dancer works wonderfully, provided you aren't looking for massive sneak attack.

Take Improved Fient or invisible Blade also works.

EvilElitest
2008-10-17, 03:06 PM
honestly, mostly because their sole reason to exist is for ninja fans to feel cool. I mean, they don't exist as a class on their own, too focused, and people don't like just creating them for some reason so.....
from
EE

afroakuma
2008-10-17, 03:13 PM
I am so close to just remaking the Ninja. Opinions?

EvilElitest
2008-10-17, 03:17 PM
I am so close to just remaking the Ninja. Opinions?

try to diverse from the sterotype of ninjas and add some cool stuff of your own that fits the theme. And make it so it doesn't have to be oriental only
from
EE

afroakuma
2008-10-17, 03:19 PM
Easily enough accomplished; look at my samurai. I made that oodles of betterness.

EvilElitest
2008-10-17, 03:21 PM
Easily enough accomplished; look at my samurai. I made that oodles of betterness.

cool, just add more fluff in this one
from
EE

Fax Celestis
2008-10-17, 03:21 PM
Easily enough accomplished; look at my samurai. I made that oodles of betterness.

plz 2 b yes remaking?

I'd do it myself if I thought it weren't a lost cause.

Lord Tataraus
2008-10-17, 03:22 PM
I am so close to just remaking the Ninja. Opinions?

It already exists, its called a rogue or swordsage. Seriously, the ninja should be a prestige class if anything, all it is is a flavor of rogue that's focused on stealth and combat.

AmberVael
2008-10-17, 03:23 PM
Deathblade can kill a common man in 1 minute by average rolls.

And a barbarian with an axe can kill a common man in six seconds with average rolls.

A CAT can kill a common man in under a minute with average rolls.
I could buy a cat for a few gold. Are you sure expensive poison is a better investment than a cat? I can pet the cat, too. It's furry and cute AND can kill the common man. Which sounds better to you?

Talya
2008-10-17, 03:24 PM
Why is the Ninja class seen as being underpowered?

They aren't pirates.

afroakuma
2008-10-17, 03:25 PM
I'll see if I can throw it some love tonight.

EvilElitest
2008-10-17, 03:25 PM
They aren't pirates.

Touche, touche
from
EE

The Rose Dragon
2008-10-17, 03:26 PM
I could buy a cat for a few gold. Are you sure expensive poison is a better investment than a cat? I can pet the cat, too. It's furry and cute AND can kill the common man. Which sounds better to you?

The poison doesn't attack me with no provocation and cause me illness, unlike the cat.

It's furry. It can kill a common man. It's not cute.

EvilElitest
2008-10-17, 03:27 PM
It already exists, its called a rogue or swordsage. Seriously, the ninja should be a prestige class if anything, all it is is a flavor of rogue that's focused on stealth and combat.

its not that bad, but it needs some more unique stuff to be its own class, because as it is your right
from
EE

arguskos
2008-10-17, 03:28 PM
And a barbarian with an axe can kill a common man in six seconds with average rolls.

A CAT can kill a common man in under a minute with average rolls.
I could buy a cat for a few gold. Are you sure expensive poison is a better investment than a cat? I can pet the cat, too. It's furry and cute AND can kill the common man. Which sounds better to you?
Not only is this correct, but I am fairly certain that Vael has won the thread. I mean, the debate is now between a Cat and Black Lotus Extract as to Man-Killing Potency for your GP. I feel that all of human existence has been a build up to this moment.

Also, I vote for the Cat, since mine is at the vet getting fixed, and I won't see him till Sunday... :smallfrown:

-argus

AmberVael
2008-10-17, 03:28 PM
The poison doesn't attack me with no provocation and cause me illness, unlike the cat.
Ah, but there is a chance that you'll poison yourself when applying poison.
On the other hand, with appropriate skill ranks, a cat won't ever attack you, and WILL attack other people on command. :smalltongue:

Edit: ^: I try, I try. :smallwink:

The Rose Dragon
2008-10-17, 03:29 PM
With enough levels in ninja, you can't poison yourself, either.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-17, 03:30 PM
With enough levels in ninja, you can't poison yourself, either.

With the right lizardman or halfling, you can't either.

arguskos
2008-10-17, 03:31 PM
But with a cat, you never need to worry. Even with yearly upkeep, I'm pretty sure it is cheaper than a dose of black lotus extract.

-argus

The Rose Dragon
2008-10-17, 03:32 PM
Poison Dusk lizardfolk!

My favorite race after Whisper Gnomes.

More people should totally be Poison Dusk lizardfolk.

AmberVael
2008-10-17, 03:32 PM
So essentially we can now state that with enough investment in either method, you can kill a common man with the same level of efficiency. However, the fact remains that the poison is one use and costs 1,800 gp, while the cat probably costs about 1 gold or something (a goat costs 1 gold...)

afroakuma
2008-10-17, 03:36 PM
Ninjas gain Martial Weapon Proficiency (cat) at 5th level.

OK?

Collin152
2008-10-17, 03:36 PM
They aren't pirates.

No, see, it said underpowered.

I understand how you might get confused.

Stupendous_Man
2008-10-17, 03:37 PM
And a barbarian with an axe can kill a common man in six seconds with average rolls.

A CAT can kill a common man in under a minute with average rolls.
I could buy a cat for a few gold. Are you sure expensive poison is a better investment than a cat? I can pet the cat, too. It's furry and cute AND can kill the common man. Which sounds better to you?

You are amazing.

The Rose Dragon
2008-10-17, 03:38 PM
So essentially we can now state that with enough investment in either method, you can kill a common man with the same level of efficiency. However, the fact remains that the poison is one use and costs 1,800 gp, while the cat probably costs about 1 gold or something (a goat costs 1 gold...)

And the cat is so irritating and annoying you will end up killing it instead if it doesn't kill you first.

EvilElitest
2008-10-17, 03:39 PM
No, see, it said underpowered.

I understand how you might get confused.

touche again, the war has started anew
from
EE

Paramour Pink
2008-10-17, 03:39 PM
I've seen and heard so much stuff about Fax_Celestis I assumed he just...didn't exist anymore. Like some DnD Geek God, I thought he left this board behind for something grander, and all we had left of him were his many reworked classes and commentaries.

And I have absolutely no clue why I thought that.


Anyway, I like the ninja class when I played it. But my DM is kind so he gives everyone a chance to be useful. So, like any class, I'm guessing that you won't come to much use if your DM doesn't want you to.

I have a question though.

Are poisons just really pathetic and everyone should avoid using them in all instances?

Temp.
2008-10-17, 03:43 PM
Are poisons just really pathetic and everyone should avoid using them in all instances? I would never buy them. If the party killed a Wyrm or something, I would harvest the poison in a second. In that case I'd use it. (Because otherwise, who are you going to sell it to? Who wants it 1800gp's worth?)

The Rose Dragon
2008-10-17, 03:45 PM
Poisons are utterly useless. I'm one of the least rules-savvy people you'd know, and even I knew at first glance that no one in their right mind would use poisons as written.

AmberVael
2008-10-17, 03:49 PM
I have a question though.

Are poisons just really pathetic and everyone should avoid using them in all instances?

It's possible that at some point you may find use for a poison, but they're not worthwhile in regular combat usage and the like. I imagine you could use them in a more subtle situation calling for extreme discreteness and a disconnect between the method and the user. Even then, you may be outclassed by magic.

Siegel
2008-10-17, 03:50 PM
There are new poison rules in the Homebrew that seemed to be quite good.

Person_Man
2008-10-17, 04:06 PM
I am so close to just remaking the Ninja. Opinions?

IMO, the key to homebrewing a new class is that it must be able to do something that you cannot already accomplish in a reasonable fashion using the existing rules.

So ask yourself, what could a Ninja do that you can't already do with a Rogue, Psychic Rogue, Spellthief, Swordsage, Factotum, Scout, or Assassin build? The current Ninja is built around Invisibility, Sudden Strike, and some random Skill bonuses, all of which can more easily and more elegantly be gained through other means. If you want your homebrew class to be worthwhile, you should come up with something creative. Otherwise, you're better off just using the existing rules.

The Rose Dragon
2008-10-17, 04:10 PM
Poisons can be good for NPCs, who don't have to worry about a budget or continued usability.

The best poisons are the cheapest ones, which can be afforded while their low DCs can still capable of being failed.

afroakuma
2008-10-17, 04:11 PM
I'm going to give it a new flavor, never fear.

Throw Cat.

Improved Critical (cat).

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-17, 04:13 PM
If you really want to poison someone, just make a potion. Of Scorching Ray.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-17, 04:23 PM
I've seen and heard so much stuff about Fax_Celestis I assumed he just...didn't exist anymore. Like some DnD Geek God, I thought he left this board behind for something grander, and all we had left of him were his many reworked classes and commentaries.

And I have absolutely no clue why I thought that.

Nope, I'm not dead yet. Was just on sabbatical. But it's glad to hear I am like unto a tiny, GitP deity. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0301.html)

Starbuck_II
2008-10-17, 05:06 PM
IMO, the key to homebrewing a new class is that it must be able to do something that you cannot already accomplish in a reasonable fashion using the existing rules.

So ask yourself, what could a Ninja do that you can't already do with a Rogue, Psychic Rogue, Spellthief, Swordsage, Factotum, Scout, or Assassin build? The current Ninja is built around Invisibility, Sudden Strike, and some random Skill bonuses, all of which can more easily and more elegantly be gained through other means. If you want your homebrew class to be worthwhile, you should come up with something creative. Otherwise, you're better off just using the existing rules.

Good Rogues can't get Poison Use.

So Ninja has Poison use, Ki powers, Sudden Strike (a nerfed Sneak attack), random skill bonuses, and um lacks some rogue skills like UMD.

A better Ninja would have the Ninjas powers, but not suck.

Ooh, how about give limited ToB progression?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-17, 05:08 PM
Good Rogues can't get Poison Use.

So Ninja has Poison use, Ki powers, Sudden Strike (a nerfed Sneak attack), random skill bonuses, and um lacks some rogue skills like UMD.

A better Ninja would have the Ninjas powers, but not suck.

Ooh, how about give limited ToB progression?Play a Swordsage.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-17, 05:11 PM
Good Rogues can't get Poison Use.

Lies. Be a Poisondusk Lizardfolk or Jungle Halfling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#jungleHalflings), or one of any other number of races that get Poison Use as a racial feature.

streakster
2008-10-17, 05:18 PM
Play a Swordsage.

Shadow Hand Swordsages - "We're ninjas. But better."

sleepy
2008-10-17, 05:19 PM
I like the ninja, I think it's fun.

To me it is a skill-based class that specializes in catburglery. He's a master sneak, but not just for slinking along the ground. He can pull off impressive vertical leaps from stillness or clamber over a wall at lightning speed, so any time someone turns around he can get from one awkward, out-of-reach hiding place to another... and when the shadows are too far apart for even the best kung-fu artistry, he can turn invisible to cross those areas. At higher levels he can go ahead and walk through walls if he needs to. Recreate the Thief computer games, play cat-and-mouse with stealth npc's, break and enter from impossibly high windows, infiltrate heavily-warded areas you can't scry on, and generally be wherever it's assumed you can't go.

I do concede that these sorts of shennanigans exclude the rest of the party. It depends if your party appreciates the roleplay advantages to this sort of subtle recon and/or enjoys listening in on your masterful infiltrations as to whether or not that means you never get the spotlight.

I don't really mind that his combat abilities are set up the way they are; discouraging you from fair fights and encouraging violence as infrequently as possible (thus, ideally, allowing you to heavily concentrate your limited use abilities on a single assassination attempt after you've avoided all the mooks). It makes him a non-combat-focused class without making him useless at the one fight he has to do.

If you were going to add stuff for the rework, some form of Hide In Plain Sight is the obvious first step. A class feature that starts by giving low light vision and improves over time (blindsight at 20?) would be good. Having his flat bonus to ac scale faster wouldn't hurt. Possibly grant Ghost Mind at a lower level and have it upgrade to mind blank later. Lower level access to evasion. Some sort of reflex save against setting off a trap you just walked into?

JaxGaret
2008-10-17, 05:35 PM
no one in their right mind would use poisons as written.

No one in their right mind would buy poisons as written. They're still pretty useful, if you can harvest them yourself.

Lord Tataraus
2008-10-17, 06:37 PM
IMO, the key to homebrewing a new class is that it must be able to do something that you cannot already accomplish in a reasonable fashion using the existing rules.

So ask yourself, what could a Ninja do that you can't already do with a Rogue, Psychic Rogue, Spellthief, Swordsage, Factotum, Scout, or Assassin build? The current Ninja is built around Invisibility, Sudden Strike, and some random Skill bonuses, all of which can more easily and more elegantly be gained through other means. If you want your homebrew class to be worthwhile, you should come up with something creative. Otherwise, you're better off just using the existing rules.

In addition to this, a class should not be pigeon-holed into one particular play-style, it should allow for some degree of customization so as to create numerous possibilities and character types. If the class you create is focused on one play-style it is a prestige class, not a base class.

afroakuma
2008-10-17, 06:53 PM
First thing: Poison is OUT. If you want it, you take it as a special ability and the munchkins in your group will eat you.

Second thing: Violence is IN. Ninjas are killers, and they are killers who do it awesomely.

Third thing: ToB is OUT. I always hear about how overpowered it is, and I won't be looking at the swordsage before making this class. If the swordsage happens to be fundamentally better... oh well.

Fourth thing: Stealth is IN. But in a different way. Invisibility is all but useless against so many higher-level threats that it's simply of no value.

Ponce
2008-10-17, 07:11 PM
Will someone please homebrew a Use Poison skill that modifies poison DC and duration, give it to the rogue; and then we can just bury the assassin, ninja, BoED, and all poison-related alignment inquires under 12 feet of concrete and never speak of them again?

sonofzeal
2008-10-17, 07:42 PM
First thing: Poison is OUT. If you want it, you take it as a special ability and the munchkins in your group will eat you.
I don't think that's necessary. I'd rather make the poisons more economical (1/3 price as a rough estimate).


Second thing: Violence is IN. Ninjas are killers, and they are killers who do it awesomely.
Ninjas are killers, but they're not warriors. Traditional ninja weapons were mostly farming implements, and they relied on avoiding suspicion both before and after the "hit". I think it's perfectly in flavour to make them excel at hit-and-run combat while not being very effective in an actual fracas.


Third thing: ToB is OUT. I always hear about how overpowered it is, and I won't be looking at the swordsage before making this class. If the swordsage happens to be fundamentally better... oh well.
ToB isn't really overpowered, but it depends what you compare it to. Basically, your average ToB character is roughly on par with what an optimized fighter/barbarian/rogue is capable of. ToB character more or less come "pre-optimized"; whatever choices you make will probably work well, and there's not many ways to either screw yourself up or make yourself super-powerful (well, except Necropolitan Shadow Sun Ninjas, but that's a special case). ToB makes melee builds better, but it doesn't make them broken. It's easier to break most any spellcasting class than it is to break ToB.


Fourth thing: Stealth is IN. But in a different way. Invisibility is all but useless against so many higher-level threats that it's simply of no value.
Indeed! I'd put the emphasis on making enemies ignore you, being inconsequential rather than invisible. I see the ability being a supernatural, mind-affecting, once-per-creature thing, ideally... maybe you could get away with only a subtle manipulation of the Ki rules for that.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-17, 07:49 PM
Fourth thing: Stealth is IN. But in a different way. Invisibility is all but useless against so many higher-level threats that it's simply of no value.

You might want to take a look at my Sensory Atavist (or the psionic (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Psionic_Sensory_Atavist) version).

sleepy
2008-10-17, 08:49 PM
Fourth thing: Stealth is IN. But in a different way. Invisibility is all but useless against so many higher-level threats that it's simply of no value.

That's not neccecarily true. +20 to hide circumstance modifier is useful if you don't just assume invisibility = indetectability. Pick up the Darkstalker feat from lords of madness and sneak anything.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-17, 11:48 PM
That's not neccecarily true. +20 to hide circumstance modifier is useful if you don't just assume invisibility = indetectability. Pick up the Darkstalker feat from lords of madness and sneak anything.

A second-level spell trumps invisibility and makes that +20 disappear into thin air.

KevLar
2008-10-18, 02:24 AM
A second-level spell trumps invisibility and makes that +20 disappear into thin air.
It does?? We're talking about See Invisibility, right?

See Invisibility reveals invisible/ethereal creatures, but does nothing useful if the creature is hiding the old, plain, mundane way. And neither does True Seeing. So that +20 is pretty reliable, unlike Invisibility.

From my experience at least, simply hiding (aided by either magical means or lots of skill points and modifiers, preferably both) is much more effective, especially at higher levels - where True Seeing is a common and trifle thing.

A Ninja being awesome at hiding sounds very good to me, especially if he gets Hide in plain sight earlier than the poor Ranger. (Which he should. He's a goddamn Ninja. :smalltongue:)

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-18, 02:45 AM
How is a Necropolitan Shadow Sun Ninja broken? From what I can gather, ToB classes aren't as powerful as Full Casters, but they are better then a lot of Core melee classes (to be fair, in some cases, they could be more useful then casters due to being able to replenish their Maneuvers whenever they have a Full Round Action to spare rather then needing to sleep for 8 hours).

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-18, 02:51 AM
How is a Necropolitan Shadow Sun Ninja broken? From what I can gather, ToB classes aren't as powerful as Full Casters, but they are better then a lot of Core melee classes (to be fair, in some cases, they could be more useful then casters due to being able to replenish their Maneuvers whenever they have a Full Round Action to spare rather then needing to sleep for 8 hours).Infinite healing. It has an at-will ability to deal neg energy damage, and heals afterwards. But because it has to damage first, it doesn't work out of combat. Necropolitan changes that.

The Rose Dragon
2008-10-18, 02:53 AM
Necropolitans have no Constitution score. The capstone ability of Shadow Sun Ninja allows them to attack their opponents at increased powers at the cost of their own Constitution, and if they lose all Constitution as a result of overuse, they become an NPC vampire (that isn't harmed by sunlight).

There is nothing in the description of the ability that prevents creatures without a Constitution score from using it.

^ And that.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-18, 02:54 AM
Thanks for explaining (I would have assumed that Con was needed due to it being used to power the ability).

lord_khaine
2008-10-18, 03:56 AM
i dont know of any lv 2 spell that works against both invisibility and stealth, but i do know of a lv 3 psionic power that does so. Touchsight (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicPsionList.html)

The Rose Dragon
2008-10-18, 04:09 AM
Thanks for explaining (I would have assumed that Con was needed due to it being used to power the ability).

It doesn't power the ability. It just causes Constitution damage depending on how much you used the power, with nothing to suggest that creatures immune to Constitution damage cannot use it.

Then again, compared to infinite healing at level 6, it is very minor.

And then you have a Tomb-Tainted Soul Dread Necromancer, who gets infinite healing with regards to himself and undead at level 1, but cannot heal his allies.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-18, 04:12 AM
How do you get infinite healing at level 6?I'm assuming you're thinking about DMM and a Vigour spell, right?

The Rose Dragon
2008-10-18, 04:15 AM
No. Necropolitan Shadow Sun Ninja. You can heal yourself and your allies as much as you want without any repercussions.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-18, 04:15 AM
Sorry about getting confused (I'm not that familiar with ToB classes).

KevLar
2008-10-18, 04:25 AM
i dont know of any lv 2 spell that works against both invisibility and stealth, but i do know of a lv 3 psionic power that does so. Touchsight (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicPsionList.html)
True. Huh. (I have no experience with psionics, thanks for pointing that out.)

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-18, 04:38 AM
There is of course Glitterdust, but it is somewhat hampered by needing to have some idea an enemy is there in the first place. A bag of flour beats Invis, too, but not Hide. (Glitterdust applies a -40 penalty to hide, and Invis only applies a +20)

JeminiZero
2008-10-18, 04:55 AM
Infinite healing. It has an at-will ability to deal neg energy damage, and heals afterwards. But because it has to damage first, it doesn't work out of combat. Necropolitan changes that.


To be fair, the healing speed is slow (base unarmed damage + wis modifier every 2 rounds), and it benefits the whole party rather than just the swordsage. It is generally used to bring everyone back to full HP outside of combat. Its not really broken, as it does no more than save some cash, that would otherwise be needed for wands of CLW or Lesser vigor (or ILW for the Necropolitan).




Necropolitans have no Constitution score. The capstone ability of Shadow Sun Ninja allows them to attack their opponents at increased powers at the cost of their own Constitution, and if they lose all Constitution as a result of overuse, they become an NPC vampire (that isn't harmed by sunlight).

There is nothing in the description of the ability that prevents creatures without a Constitution score from using it.


This has to be put into perspective. The capstone ability converts the SS Ninja into an undead for 1 minute once per day. During that time, all unarmed strikes can bestow 1 negative level, (which heal the SS Ninja 5 points as well). At the end of 1 minute, each negative level so bestowed deals 1 con damage.

As a necropolitan, the SS ninja is already undead, so the real benefit is mainly the negative levels (and the fact he can bestow as many as he wants without fear of con damage). However, it must use unarmed strike, so that discounts weapon combos like the spiked chain tripper.

But what does he give up? Firstly, a SS Ninja gains 4 maneuvres over 10 levels. Whereas if the guy stuck with swordsage, he would have gained 10 maneuvres, and had the option of swapping out another 5 (1 at each even level). Furthermore, the SS Ninja can only learn Shadowhand maneuvres, whereas the Swordsage can still pick up maneuvers from any discipline, and so he can ready multiple high level maneuvers from several disciplines. In terms of Maneuvers readied, the SS Ninja gains 2 more over 10 levels, whereas the swordsage gains ~4 more.

Overall, compared to a pure swordsage, a Setting Sun Ninja loses 6 maneuvers, the option to swap another 5 maneuvers for higher level ones, the option to learn maneuvers from disciplines other than shadowhand, as well as 2 maneuvers readied. Thats a lot of maneuvers. And in exchange, he can deal 1 negative levels per unarmed strike, for one minute once per day.

To be sure thats not all the SS Ninja gains, there are other nice class features of the SS Ninja, but other than the Light within Darkness-HiPS combo (as used by Person Man's Blinky the Ninja (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4666858&postcount=5)) none of them are particularly broken.

sleepy
2008-10-18, 05:24 AM
A second-level spell trumps invisibility and makes that +20 disappear into thin air.

Yeah, but it lasts half an hour when you learn to cast it. What level do you get it permanencied on, usually? At lower levels, the wizard's only going to try See Invisibility if you throw a Move Silently check something awful. If you're infiltrating somewhere where the guard mooks can afford permanencied see invisibility or are summoned critters with it as a special ability, yeah, you might be a little outclassed, but assuming that's after level 10 in your campaigns you can go ethereal and cross that open courtyard inside the ground by that point. Sneaking into the Mighty Guild Of Everyone's A High Level Wizard should be fairly difficult, whether you're a ninja or a spellcaster.

afroakuma
2008-10-18, 06:53 AM
A Ninja being awesome at hiding sounds very good to me

Uh oh, you've discovered my plan!

hamishspence
2008-10-18, 07:39 AM
Hellfire Warlock has powers based on spending Constitution.

However, the sort of basic houserule most would favour is: To spend Constitution, you must have Constitution to spend.

Xallace
2008-10-18, 08:34 AM
Hellfire Warlock has powers based on spending Constitution.

However, the sort of basic houserule most would favour is: To spend Constitution, you must have Constitution to spend.

Well, in that scenario the text specifically states that you can't use the ability if you don't have a Con score or are immune to Con damage. Not so with Shadow Sun Ninja. While many DMs would probably implement a houserule, it works by-the-book.

afroakuma
2008-10-18, 10:18 AM
Alright, I posted the revised Ninja class. Opinions here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5127011#post5127011), please.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-18, 12:29 PM
It does?? We're talking about See Invisibility, right?

See Invisibility reveals invisible/ethereal creatures, but does nothing useful if the creature is hiding the old, plain, mundane way. And neither does True Seeing. So that +20 is pretty reliable, unlike Invisibility.

...yeeeeeeeeees, but being invisible grants a bonus on your hide check. But if your foe can see invisibility, then that bonus disappears since you're no longer invisible to him.

thegurullamen
2008-10-18, 12:47 PM
...yeeeeeeeeees, but being invisible grants a bonus on your hide check. But if your foe can see invisibility, then that bonus disappears since you're no longer invisible to him.

I don't follow the logic here. You're saying if my opponent can see me, then even though I'm invisible he can see me?

Fax Celestis
2008-10-18, 12:50 PM
I don't follow the logic here. You're saying if my opponent can see me, then even though I'm invisible he can see me?

Pretty much. I'm responding to the idea that one would retain the bonus on hide checks for being invisible even if your opponent is capable of seeing you--a notion that's pretty ridiculous.

afroakuma
2008-10-18, 12:51 PM
What he's saying is that if your foe has see invisibility or another equivalent, your invisibility is utterly useless, rendering your +20 Hide bonus nonexistant, which makes your sudden strike utterly useless.

Wreckingrocc
2008-10-18, 12:52 PM
Say you're facing a high CR monster. A ninja runs out, and hits it with sudden strike... Then runs away, leaving the party to die, or, in the case of solos, being pursued. The sudden strike does not do enough damage to one shot the monster. You will never kill it dealing a barrage of 1d10+1 damage, especially when it has such high hp. Essentially, ninjas must either one-shot or flee and then jump back out. They're like rogues against zombies, only they only fight zombies.

That's it. They're just plain bad in combat. They don't really need charisma for anything, other than the social skills, so they kinda suck at that too.

afroakuma
2008-10-18, 12:54 PM
I'd like to think my new ninja is a bit more vicious. At level 14, my revised Ninja (with 18 Dex) can sudden attack with a flurry of five shuriken at +13/+13/+13/+8/+3 for 1d4+5 damage each (avg 37.5) and add 7d6 sudden strike damage (avg 24.5) for an average total of 62 damage. She can then Hide with her sniper ability giving a +14 bonus (penalty for hiding after a ranged attack only -6, add +4 for Dex, +6 for Acrobatic and 17 ranks for +21 overall Hide modifier), getting to do it all again.

KevLar
2008-10-18, 12:55 PM
...yeeeeeeeeees, but being invisible grants a bonus on your hide check. But if your foe can see invisibility, then that bonus disappears since you're no longer invisible to him.
*reads the thread again*

Oh. That +20 to hide. The +20 from Invisibility.
(My bad, I had read that hastily and thought we were talking about a general modifier, from skill points, magical items, dexterity etc. :smallredface:)

Starbuck_II
2008-10-18, 01:12 PM
Say you're facing a high CR monster. A ninja runs out, and hits it with sudden strike... Then runs away, leaving the party to die, or, in the case of solos, being pursued. The sudden strike does not do enough damage to one shot the monster. You will never kill it dealing a barrage of 1d10+1 damage, especially when it has such high hp. Essentially, ninjas must either one-shot or flee and then jump back out. They're like rogues against zombies, only they only fight zombies.

That's it. They're just plain bad in combat. They don't really need charisma for anything, other than the social skills, so they kinda suck at that too.

The CV Ninja can just go invisible for the entire round each time it uses Ki Invisibility: acts like G. Invis so he can attack without being revealed.

Even if the Monster can see Invisible creatures: he can activate Ki Dodge to gain Concealment defense so he'll be missed alot (likeBlur/displacement).

Though, at that level, you'll have a Wizard with Grease (balancing), Glitterdust (blindness), etc to deny dex to allow Sudden Strike.


It isn't that the CV Ninja sucks compleyely, but that it is too limiited.

If they raised Ki power points to 2x (level + wisdom): it just might be usable in every encounter to be meaningful.

Example, Level 10 would have (10+6 assuming 24 Wis) x2=32 points. That would mean around 4 rounds in each combat G.Invis.
Since average combat is 6 rounds; that will be less than max but not too short.

Level 1, you have (1+ 2 assuing 14 wis) x2=6 points.
Kinda bad, but eh.


Maybe, a better way would let Ki Invisibility be usable level+Wisdom mod times each encounter? 5 minute time to refresh things ability max like ToB.

Yes, that works great.
At low levels, you are just as limited sadly, but around level 5; you won't be limited as badly each encounter.

chiasaur11
2008-10-19, 12:55 AM
Whatever the ninja class is like, it should have a bonus for using frozen shamrocks as shuriken.

I mean, that's one of the classic ninja stories.

Project_Mayhem
2008-10-19, 07:43 AM
This is just an idea, as I'm most likely too lazy to do this, but hear me out.

We've established that the biggest problem with the Ninja as it stands is that it doesn't really have it's own role. How about if the ninja was more like the ones on FF tactics advance and the sequal? For those who don't know, that class has good physical attack, combined with various ninjitsu abilities, which at a short range would deal some damage and a status effect.