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Xallace
2008-10-15, 08:44 AM
Hey guys, I just wanted to know what some people thought of some of the alternate class features presented throughout the books. Which ones you think are best, which ones you think are worthless; but most importantly, I have a few questions on the ones below:

Berserker Strength (Barbarian, Player's Handbook II): This barbarian variant allows you to enter some kinda "Super-rage" when reduced pretty low in hit points. I've never seen this feature commented on; is it at all useful?

Shapeshifter (Druid, Player's Handbook II): I see it mentioned every-so-often but I don't know how it actually compares to what you lose.

Divine Spirits (Paladin, Dungeonscape): I personally think it looks awesome, but is it really as useful as it seems?

Battle Sorcerer (Sorcerer, Unearthed Arcana): Fun? Useful? I've never gotten the chance to bring one into play for an extended period.

Spontaneous Dispel (Wizard, Unearthed Arcana): Dropping known spells to cast Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic sounds really useful, but is it worth losing spell slots?

Fiendish Flamewreath (Warlock, Player's Handbook II): It looks flavorful, but is it worth giving up Fiendish Resilience?

Dragonscale Husk (Fighter OR Cleric OR Paladin, any class that grants heavy armor, Dragon Magic): You lose Heavy Armor proficiency to grow scaly medium-armor that also gives Energy resistance. It sounds nice, but it also says it doesn't stack with any other AC bonus...

Thanks in advance!

Kurald Galain
2008-10-15, 08:47 AM
Shapeshifter is worse than regular druid, but the more relevant point is that it's more balanced than the top-tier regular druid. It's also less bookkeeping for the player involved.

Battle Sorc isn't worth it as a gish; Duskblade and a variety of other gish classes are better. Admittedly the BS gets 9th-level spells eventually, but if your character goal is to get 9th-level spells, that raises the question why you're playing a gish in the first place.

Spont Dispel isn't worth losing spell slots on unless you're an Ultimate Magus.

Flamewreath is worse then resilience.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-10-15, 08:59 AM
Hey guys, I just wanted to know what some people thought of some of the alternate class features presented throughout the books. Which ones you think are best, which ones you think are worthless; but most importantly, I have a few questions on the ones below:

Berserker Strength (Barbarian, Player's Handbook II): This barbarian variant allows you to enter some kinda "Super-rage" when reduced pretty low in hit points. I've never seen this feature commented on; is it at all useful?It ONLY activates when you are low health, which severely nerfs it's use. Considering you probably don't want to get that low to begin with, or if you do, you want the party healbot to bring you back up rather than charge in the midst of battle, this is a trap.


Shapeshifter (Druid, Player's Handbook II): I see it mentioned every-so-often but I don't know how it actually compares to what you lose. It doesn't, that's the point. This is more for the GM's to rule "All druids in my campaign do this rather than standard wildshape" to avoid DruidZillas.


Divine Spirits (Paladin, Dungeonscape): I personally think it looks awesome, but is it really as useful as it seems?Haven't had a chance to see it yet, so cannot comment.


Battle Sorcerer (Sorcerer, Unearthed Arcana): Fun? Useful? I've never gotten the chance to bring one into play for an extended period. Trap. In exchange for getting FEWER spells known, you get 3/4 BAB and the ability to cast in light armor at no penalty. I'd rather play a straight Sorcerer with +1 Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt, which can also cast without ASF. 1/2 vs 3/4 is almost a non-issue when you can pick up True Strike as a Spell Known.


Spontaneous Dispel (Wizard, Unearthed Arcana): Dropping known spells to cast Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic sounds really useful, but is it worth losing spell slots? I haven't seen it, but it doesn't sound very useful. Lots of ways to be able to spointaniously cast Dispel Magic that don't involve screwing your spell slots.


Fiendish Flamewreath (Warlock, Player's Handbook II): It looks flavorful, but is it worth giving up Fiendish Resilience?Actually, Fiendish Resilience isn't all that good, so this is a better deal than it seems. IIRC, it lets you do your EB damage to anyone attacking you, right? Very worth it, and the sheer intimidation value is just schweet.


Dragon Skin/Armor (Fighter OR Cleric OR Paladin, Dragon Magic): You lose Heavy Armor proficiency to grow scaly medium-armor that also gives Energy resistance. It sounds nice, but it also says it doesn't stack with any other AC bonus...
Natural armor generally cannot be enchanted, which is the big downside normally. If it can be enchanted like normal armor, it might be worth it, depending on how the numbers crunch.

Eldariel
2008-10-15, 09:02 AM
Berserker Strength (Barbarian, Player's Handbook II): This barbarian variant allows you to enter some kinda "Super-rage" when reduced pretty low in hit points. I've never seen this feature commented on; is it at all useful?

Not worth it outside extreme niché builds (Pain Mastery high HP Frenzy-builds that basically spend all their time in low enough HP to activate this without just rolling over and dying). Basically, you want Rage from the beginning of combat, not when you're about to roll over as it doesn't stop you from rolling over. Even worse, it doesn't even increase your HP total, so usually it's just begging for the opponents to focus on your as you go really strong when you're about to die. Normal Rage is much better (although I'd still rather pick Whirling Frenzy [Unearthed Arcana] or Ferocity [Cityscape Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)])


Shapeshifter (Druid, Player's Handbook II): I see it mentioned every-so-often but I don't know how it actually compares to what you lose.

Oh, it's nowhere near as good as Wildshape. The thing is, Wildshape is broken as is Druid in general. This can be used to slightly tone down Druid's power, where it works admirably. Of course, there's the benefit of gaining something already level 1 so it isn't strictly worse than Wildshape - just worse level 6 onwards.


Divine Spirits (Paladin, Dungeonscape): I personally think it looks awesome, but is it really as useful as it seems?

Well, it's decent. However, the thing is, you give up the only thing that makes it worth being a Paladin in the first place - the Mount. It also means that you'll want to take a crapton of Paladin-levels, which kinda sucks. The abilities are decent, but Spirit of Healing isn't very good for in-combat healing as it requires a Standard Action plus summoning the Spirit and no movement, and for out-of-combat healing, Wands already cover most of your needs.

Spirit of Combat is quite decent although some Cleric-buffs overlap with it. Spirit of Heroism is bleh (spells do the same thing better) and Spirit of the Fallen comes really late. Overall, the fact that they require actions and can be dispelled makes them somewhat weak. Still, if you're hellbent on playing a Paladin over a Cleric for whatsoever reason and hellbent on not gaining a Mount, and have the stats to pull it off, go ahead and pick it up. It's not that powerful, but it has its uses.


Battle Sorcerer (Sorcerer, Unearthed Arcana): Fun? Useful? I've never gotten the chance to bring one into play for an extended period.

For "easy gishes". That said, the fact that they lose one spell known per level is really annoying and makes them very impractical for more experienced players, or players who want to have more than one option per level.


Spontaneous Dispel (Wizard, Unearthed Arcana): Dropping known spells to cast Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic sounds really useful, but is it worth losing spell slots?

It's quite solid (as Abjuration is very shallow and thus the lost specialist spells aren't that crippling in the first place). That said, it requires being an Abjurer and taking 5 levels in Wizard, which is tough. If specializing though, I'd basically always suggest those specialist ACFs as it gives the character the "feel" of specialization in some specific school (just being a normal specialist tends to be barely visible).


Fiendish Flamewreath (Warlock, Player's Handbook II): It looks flavorful, but is it worth giving up Fiendish Resilience?

Not worth it - it requires melee attacks and the damage is really small (and of a commonly resisted type). Furthermore, reach weapons and such are totally immune. Overall, the damage is too low to really matter at those levels (you only get it on level 8!)


Dragon Skin/Armor (Fighter OR Cleric OR Paladin, Dragon Magic): You lose Heavy Armor proficiency to grow scaly medium-armor that also gives Energy resistance. It sounds nice, but it also says it doesn't stack with any other AC bonus...

The energy resistances are nice, but accessible through spellcasting. Having so low Dex limitation and unavoidable ACP really hurts - while you save money with that, normal armor is usually just better as the composite bonus is greater (Husk maxes out at 12+2, while +5 Mithril Breastplate is 5+5+5, and Fullplate or Padded Leather are one higher, with +5 Celestial Armor being two higher - that, and you can afford the manufactured armors earlier), and you can add special abilities to it. That said, Dragonscale Husk is a flavourful ability.

Andras
2008-10-15, 09:03 AM
I'm a fan of most of the Dungeonscape variants (especially the Paladin and Ranger ones).

Dragon Skin looks like it would be quite good, if only for the fact that it's free. Accessible WBL is a good thing, especially because the AC increases as you go up in level. That being said, you'd have to be fine with almost always having less armor than any other frontline-type.

One of my favorite ACF's is Hit-and-run fighter from Drow of the Underdark. +2 to initiative and Dex bonus to attacks against flat-footed enemies for the cost of heavy armor proficiency/tower shield proficiency for a fighter? Yes, please!

I haven't looked at the Complete Champion ones much, because most of that book isn't worth looking at or is a little too good (Lion Totem Barbarian, etc), in my opinion.

Epinephrine
2008-10-15, 09:06 AM
I like Shapeshifter much more than the usual Wild Shape, though it is indeed weaker. We are playing in a world in which there are no wildshape druids, just variants - most druids are shapeshift. This results in all druids of 2nd level or higher travelling fast, via woodland stride and a 50' movement rate. Explains how they can keep tabs on a large area. Even 1st level druids do o.k. with a survival check. By 5th level they can fly and use Cloud Wings to boost flight speed for 1hour/level, allowing them to survey even more territory. Fits really well with the idea of druids looking after large territories, which is otherwise much harder for low level characters.

bosssmiley
2008-10-15, 09:21 AM
Berserker Strength (Barbarian, Player's Handbook II): - looks like a trap. Take a kicking to 50% hp(?) before you can rage? No thanks.

Shapeshifter (Druid, Player's Handbook II): - standard for druids IMG. More balanced and much simpler to adjudicate than wildbreak.

Divine Spirits (Paladin, Dungeonscape): - don't have Dungeonscape. Sounds fun though.

Battle Sorcerer (Sorcerer, Unearthed Arcana): - Never used. *Meh*

Spontaneous Dispel (Wizard, Unearthed Arcana): - Not used. Looks interesting. Might have to go over the UA sections of the SRD again.

Fiendish Flamewreath (Warlock, Player's Handbook II): - so-so. The entire Warlock class is a matter of sublime indifference to me though.

monty
2008-10-15, 09:23 AM
Battle Sorcerer:
http://elitemrp.net/iat/examples/tarp.jpg

jcsw
2008-10-15, 09:32 AM
The Totem Barbarian alternate class features from Complete Champion are good (Some of them at least).

Dungeoncrasher Variant for fighters from Dungeonscape is also pretty fun, not to mention abusable with other feats which shall not be named.

A lot of the wizard Alternate class features which make you lose your familiar tend to be useful, compared to a familiar at least.

Xallace
2008-10-15, 09:34 AM
A lot of the wizard Alternate class features which make you lose your familiar tend to be useful, compared to a familiar at least.

I personally like the one from Dragon Magic that gives your familiar a Breath Weapon. That always struck me as something that would be a lot of fun, even if it is usable only every-so-often.

Starbuck_II
2008-10-15, 09:47 AM
Hey guys, I just wanted to know what some people thought of some of the alternate class features presented throughout the books. Which ones you think are best, which ones you think are worthless; but most importantly, I have a few questions on the ones below:

Berserker Strength (Barbarian, Player's Handbook II): This barbarian variant allows you to enter some kinda "Super-rage" when reduced pretty low in hit points. I've never seen this feature commented on; is it at all useful?

Thanks in advance!

You gain DR that stacks with other DR, increased saves (all not just Will like regular Barb), same AC penalty, but hp limit.

The fact that it stacks with other DR is nifty. But the hp limit limits it. Plus, it encourages (forces) you to be mostly Barb classes to activate it. Other HD won't affect it.

I would have changed it to:
no AC penalty (you already have Hp issue) and this line
"Whenever your current hit point total is below 5 x your Character level, your berserker strength automatically activates"

That would have made it useful and still not overpowered.

toddex
2008-10-15, 10:19 AM
Berserker Strength (Barbarian, Player's Handbook II): This barbarian variant allows you to enter some kinda "Super-rage" when reduced pretty low in hit points. I've never seen this feature commented on; is it at all useful?


Actually someone did the math for this around here and there is a point where you'll pretty much always have it up. Since the threshold is 5 x your barbarian levels.

Epinephrine
2008-10-15, 10:30 AM
The Totem Barbarian alternate class features from Complete Champion are good (Some of them at least).

The Lion Totem ability is broken. Simple fix is to move it to 6th level, since that's when you get your iterative attack anyway, preventing it being the 1 level dip for everyone who wants free pounces.

Chronos
2008-10-15, 11:04 AM
The thing with Battle Sorcerer is, if you want to play a gish, you'll probably be aiming for Eldritch Knight or some other such prestige class. With a battle sorc going into eldritch knight, you'll get your sorc BAB and HD replaced with that of the prestige class, but you continue advancing the same crippled spellcasting. So you keep on paying the cost, but stop gaining the benefit.

Little_Rudo
2008-10-15, 12:26 PM
I really like Battle Sorcerer's in theory; I like the thought of someone with innate magical powers being a bit hardier in a fight than someone who has to study endlessly for their powers. Unfortunately, mechanically it's not very viable, as others have mentioned.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-15, 12:34 PM
How would you improve Battle Sorcerers, Little_Rudo? Eldrich Knight always looked like a poor choice to me due to how it doesn't help you with ASF (unless you take a Fighter level 1 substitution to get Armoured Mage with Light rmour and Light Shields).

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-10-15, 01:12 PM
To be honest, ASF isn't a big problem for Gish builds, thanks to Mithral Chain Shirt. Let's face it, a Gish has far better ways to defend themselves than AC. Mirror Image, Displacement, Greater Invisibility... a Gish has more ways of preventing an attack than he knows what to do with.

Battle Sorcerers were a good idea, but poor execution. A Pal2/Sorc4/SpellSword1/AbChamp5 build is WAY more powerful than a Battle Sorcerer 12 is. It has better BAB, better casting (even casting as a 10th level sorcerer is better than a 12th battle sorcerer, due to greater versitility), and better abilities in general (auto-quickened Shield which gives +9 to AC, auto-quickened Dispel Magic, casting stat to all saves...). And that's a fairly un-optimized build.

LibraryOgre
2008-10-15, 01:23 PM
I love how people throw in Abjurant Champion from Complete Mage to talk about how bad something from several years before Complete Mage was released is.

"Battle Sorcerer sucks because you could do it with Abjurant Champion."

I think that speaks more to the overpowered nature of later books, when things that come out later completely replace old ways of doing things... and they're spellcasting classes.

weenie
2008-10-15, 01:24 PM
Battle sorcerers can make durable and flavorful blasters, since they have full CL. And they are also useful in low level games. I played one once in a game that ended at lvl 5 and I was quite pleased with the character from both, the fluff and mechanic point of view.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-15, 01:27 PM
Also, why would burning turns and spell slots to compensate for poor AC be that good an idea? Also, don't forget that armour with less chance of ASF is more expensive then normal armour, which could be a problem (admittedly, I'm probably overestimating the cost of these things: I know a Mithril Chain Shirt would need the Twilight Enhancement to get ASF of 0%, unless I'm really confused about how it works).

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-10-15, 01:30 PM
Also, why would burning turns and spell slots to compensate for poor AC be that good an idea? Also, don't forget that armour with less chance of ASF is more expensive then normal armour, which could be a problem (admittedly, I'm probably overestimating the cost of these things: I know a Mithril Chain Shirt would need the Twilight Enhancement to get ASF of 0%, unless I'm really confused about how it works).

Ahh, but you see, you can either Auto-Quicken to get more armor than you would have been able to get normally, or you can just persist it and leave it on all day. As an example, Greater Mirror Image regenerates it's images, so you're looking at about a 12.5% chance of them even finding the right image, which is generally much better odds than you get with AC. Incantatrix is the easiest way to do it, but I'm sure there are others.

And with Spellsword dip, you don't need Twilight, because Spellsword reduces ACF by 10%.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-15, 01:31 PM
If you want to have almost no spells known, but be able to wear armor and have decent BAB, be a Warlock. Seriously, Battle Sorcerer is horrid. Ignoring cantrips, a BS has 4 spells known at 5th level. That increases to 5 at 6th level. That barely qualifies as a Caster, IMHO. Greater Mage Armor is just as good as Mithral Breastplate, and it saves you WBL. Don't lose spells known for that.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-15, 01:34 PM
What are the prequisites for Spellswords? I know ACs aren;t that bad, but I wouldn't bother with a lot of PrCs due to their requirements (admittedly, I also hate the idea of multi-classing most of the time due to having trouble justifying it froma fluff perspective). Does anyone actually have any ideas for improving Battle Sorcerers which don't revolve around PrCs and multi-classing?

Person_Man
2008-10-15, 01:39 PM
Berserker Strength (Barbarian, Player's Handbook II): Only useful if you're going strait Barbarian in a low level campaign. A Barbarian 4/Whatever X with the Extra Rage feat has all the Rage he needs.

Shapeshifter (Druid, Player's Handbook II): A huge nerf. But since Druids are already full casters with a solid spell list, this actually makes them a lot more balanced.

Divine Spirits (Paladin, Dungeonscape): A Paladin's mount can easily be their most powerful class feature. But if you spend a lot of time in tight spaces and don't want to play a Small race with a Medium mount, this is an ok variant. Several PrC progress the Mount, so you're not necessarily limited to strait Paladin.

Battle Sorcerer (Sorcerer, Unearthed Arcana): Another big nerf. But again, you're still a full caster.

Spontaneous Dispel (Wizard, Unearthed Arcana): Depends, but I think its more nerf. Buy Wands as needed if you're worried about always having certain spells on hand.

Fiendish Flamewreath (Warlock, Player's Handbook II): Meh. You trade one minor class feature for another. DR is more useful IMO.

Dragon Skin/Armor (Fighter OR Cleric OR Paladin, Dragon Magic): Good at low level in that it saves you money. But at mid-higher level, the armor that you can buy will be much better. It arguably doesn't have a spell failure rate though, so you might use it for certain Gish builds.

Animefunkmaster
2008-10-15, 01:40 PM
(unless you take a Fighter level 1 substitution to get Armoured Mage with Light rmour and Light Shields).

That substitution doesn't work like you think it does, it only works for spells whose level is equal to half your fighter level.

Ways to bypass Arcane Spell Failure:
Mithril Tilight Gyth (or Fey) craft breastplate
Mithril Chain Shirt

Prestige Bard (UA)
Knight's Phantom (Five Nations)
Spell Sword (CW)

Battle Srocerer (UA)
Warmage (CD and CA)
Dread Necro (HoH)
Beguiler (PHB2)


A Pal2/Sorc4/SpellSword1/AbChamp5 build is WAY more powerful than a Battle Sorcerer 12 is
For that matter no base class 12 (except possibly Druid) holds a candle to anything with two prestige classes and a reasonable build. Battle Sorcerer is a reasonable start for a Gish, but is statistically not the MOST optimized choice.

Edit: Forgot the Dragon Husk fighter variant from Dragonmagic doesn't have arcane spell failure... so add that to my list.

Eldariel
2008-10-15, 01:45 PM
For that matter no base class 12 (except possibly Druid) holds a candle to anything with two prestige classes and a reasonable build. Battle Sorcerer is a reasonable start for a Gish, but is statistically not the MOST optimized choice..

Uh, what? A straight Sorcerer 12 would eat that build for breakfast. Let alone a straight Wizard 12, Archivist 12, Artificer 12 or a Cleric 12... PrCs are hardly more powerful than core classes (some stupid editing mistakes aside, like the fact that Sorcerer, Wizard and Cleric have no class features beyond spells, and Planar Shepherd and Incantatrix).

On a basic level, PrCs may take your character to a different direction, but a straight character has a multitude of advantages over a PrCd character and thus presents a very reasonable alternative. Or well, that's how it should work anyways, and that's how it does to a degree - PrCing doesn't automatically make you better, or even as good as a straight build (just because you lose some progression, and many PrCs have heavy prerequisites while normal characters could make good of those, not to mention, most PrCs suck).

valadil
2008-10-15, 01:53 PM
I'm only commenting on Battle Sorcerer since it's the only alternate class feature I've used.

Battle Sorc is very suboptimal, but I like it a lot for NPCs. It makes gishes straightforward and easier to build. Mithril Twilight armor is great for PCs, but I don't want to put a set on each of the town guards for the PCs to harvest later. Also, I like my enemies to be somewhat more robust than a PC, and sacrificing a couple utility spells is worth it for them.

As a PC class there are better options. Theoretically this might let you hit Eldritch Knight or Spellsword a little earlier than straight sorc would due to the increased BAB. I wouldn't be surprised if there are some weird gish builds that can hit 9th level spells with this, but not with straight sorc. Maybe an abjurer champ (since they need a lot of BAB)? But I'm not going to do the math to find that weird build when there are already better choices.

Playing a gish often requires the mindset of a tank who also gets spells. Playing as a mage who also gets BAB usually leaves you as a slightly weaker mage who doesn't even use his BAB anyway. If you approach this class as a tank with spells, it's a way to get slightly fewer spells but increase your tankiness. Depending on the character you want to play it may be worthwhile.

Animefunkmaster
2008-10-15, 04:11 PM
Uh, what? A straight Sorcerer 12 would eat that build for breakfast. Let alone a straight Wizard 12, Archivist 12, Artificer 12 or a Cleric 12... PrCs are hardly more powerful than core classes (some stupid editing mistakes aside, like the fact that Sorcerer, Wizard and Cleric have no class features beyond spells, and Planar Shepherd and Incantatrix).

Perhaps I didn't make my statements clear enough. What I intended to get across is that Wizard+PRC is better than Wizard, for all classes except for druid in some circumstances. I didn't mean to imply that fighter + Prc + Prc + Prc can always defeat a straight Wizard.


many PrCs have heavy prerequisites while normal characters could make good of those, not to mention, most PrCs suck).

I disagree with this statement.

Triaxx
2008-10-15, 05:32 PM
The trick to the Battle Sorceror is not treating it as a caster, but as a Fighter with the ability to enchant himself to the point few things can touch him. Stoneskin, Mage Armor, Shield, then the specific things. As a spontaneous caster, I can snag a selection of spells that'll cover most contingencies, and fire them off at my own choosing. Other fighters have to scream for the Wizard to buff them, plus I can snag Power Attack, max it out, and use a quickened True Strike to ensure I hit for whatever massive damage. Think Tactically, not Strategically.

Kurald Galain
2008-10-15, 05:34 PM
The trick to the Battle Sorceror is not treating it as a caster, but as a Fighter with the ability to enchant himself

If that's your goal, Duskblades are much cooler.

Lord Tataraus
2008-10-15, 05:56 PM
Personally, I am just going to take the Pathfinder Sorcerer, give him light armor proficiency and casting and 3/4 base attack bonus and call it the default Sorcerer. They are already horribly handicapped by their spell progression and aren't much better in Pathfinder (since everything else gets a boost to so degree) and I think it fits a Sorcerer better to be more physically adept than the bookworm wizard.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-16, 01:30 AM
That sounds like an interresting fix, Lord Tantarus. I was having another discussion on a different forum about balancing Sorcerers, and the idea of giving them more skills and skill points came up: http://forum.mydndgame.com/index.php/topic,118.0.html .

Demons_eye
2008-10-16, 01:46 AM
I remember a guy that made Berserker Strength that had low con so he was all ways in it ><

If a remeber right he had a flaw and a trait that had -2 to hp every level.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-16, 01:49 AM
:smalleek: How did he survive as a melee fighter with that build? That variant must be powerful.

Demons_eye
2008-10-16, 01:53 AM
I dont know he only told me in passing, I'll have to ask him.

Demons_eye
2008-10-16, 02:02 AM
He says that he used it with point buy and Mineral Warrior template. he had DR/17 (8 is adaminte).

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-16, 02:06 AM
That would explain it thanks. (That would work unless the DM gave all of his chatacters Adamantine weapons or he got hit by magic attacks).

Fizban
2008-10-16, 05:32 AM
Except, IIRC, the Duskblade doesn't really get any decent self buffs. The Battle Sorcerer on the other hand, can pick from the entire Sor/Wiz list, and gets spells above 5th level.

One thing you could do with the Battle Sorcerer is try out some of the more wacky combat buffs that a normal caster would never take. I seem to remember a spell that gave you a pair of tentacle attacks in addition to your own. Normally a waste of time, but a fightery type could always use some extra reach and attacks.

One of my favorite variants, at least in theory, is the Dungeonscape Sorcerer. He gets the ability to blow spell slots to prevent 5 damage/level of the slot, in exchange for, you guessed it, the familiar.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-16, 05:37 AM
Don't forget that Duskblades get some spells which are higher then level 5 for Wizards (eg: Disintegrate and Waves of Exhaustion). To be fair, they get those later then Wizards.

only1doug
2008-10-16, 06:55 AM
<snip>
Dragon Skin/Armor scale Husk (Fighter OR Cleric OR Paladin any class that grants heavy armour proficiency, Dragon Magic): Good at low level in that it saves you money. But at mid-higher level, the armor that you can buy will be much better. It arguably doesn't have a spell failure rate though, so you might use it for certain Gish builds.

Fixed that. Important change for my build.
Dragonscale Husk is nice, both of my last 2 characters have had it, my sorcerer had a 1 Lvl fighter dip for backstory reasons and 6AC that has no spellfailure and doesn't take a spell to cast worked quite nicely.

My current character is a gish:
duskblade 5 (dragonscale husk gives 7ac and resistance to acid, fire, cold & lightning 5)/ wizard 1/ Abjurant champion 5 (advancing wizard progression).
his gear is significantly better for not buying any armour. 7AC from husk + 9AC from shield (spell) means that having a lower dex isn't a real problem.
endless cantrips from duskblade and wizard are nice.

So i've sacrificed all armour feats (that i was never going to wear) for permanent 7AC / 5 resistance. yes its a nice class feature.

(now i just need to find a class feature to swap for my familiar, i don't want a familiar dying to mess up my character for months)

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-16, 07:00 AM
Can that stack with Natural Armour? I'm guessing it can;t stack with Bracers of Defence.

Greymane
2008-10-16, 07:22 AM
I can only comment on the Battle Sorcerer, really.

In our games, the Sorcerer is replaced by the Battle Sorcerer, except it takes no penalty to spells known and spells per day. We all agree that someone who's just talented should be a bit hardier then someone who studies like a wizard. The Sorcerer also does not receive class features normally, so we saw no problem with it balance-wise. It's been used once so far (casters aren't a favorite of our group), and everything worked out just fine for it, and everyone else.

only1doug
2008-10-16, 07:35 AM
Can that stack with Natural Armour? I'm guessing it can;t stack with Bracers of Defence.

Dragon Scale Husk provides an armour bonus to AC, you cannot wear armour with a dragon scale husk.
It therefore wouldn't stack with bracers of defense (as you rightly guessed) but will indeed stack with natural armour and shields.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-16, 07:58 AM
Thanks for clarifying, only1doug. I like that fix, Genn (I'll try to remember it so that I can try it at some point).

Person_Man
2008-10-16, 01:09 PM
Here are the best Alternate Class Features (forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-906113) I'm aware of:

Barbarian: Lion Totem: Complete Champion: Fast Movement for Pounce.

Barbarian or Rogue: Spell Sense: Complete Mage: Lose trapsense. Gain AC bonus vs spells.

Bard: Bardic Knack: PHB II: Lose bardic knowledge, gain the ability to use half your class level in place of skill ranks.

Druid: Fangshield: Champions of Valor: Lose Resist Nature's Lore and one Wildshape use per day. Gain Spontaneous Cure Light Wounds, the ability to Wildshape HANDS while in animal form, and the ability to Wildshape into humanoids.

Favored Soul: Favored of Bahamut/Tiamat: Dragon Magic: Lose weapon focus and specialization. Gain claw attacks, add some sorcerer spells to your spells known list, add the dragon touched feat. Gain DR 10/epic instead of normal DR.

Fighter: Resolute: Complete Champion: Lose a bonus feat. As an immediate action, reduce your BAB by half and add that amount to your Will save.

Fighter: Dungeon Crasher: Dungeonscape: Lose bonus feats, gain bonuses to break doors and traps. Gain a bonus on bull rush and do ridiculous extra damage when you bull rush an enemy into a wall or solid object. Combine with Knock-Back feat (Races of Stone).

Paladin: Curse Breaker: Complete Mage: Lose remove disease, gain remove curse and break enchantment.

Paladin: Shadow Cloak Knight: Champions of Valor web enhancement: gain Move Silently and Hide as class skills, Favored Enemy, and Hide in Plain Site. LOSE NOTHING.

Ranger: Shape-changing: Unearthed Arcana: Lose Combat Style feats. Gain limited wildshape (which can be improved with feats), and fast movement.

Kurald Galain
2008-10-16, 01:14 PM
Here are the best Alternate Class Features (forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-906113) I'm aware of:

Also,

Wizard:
Abrupt Jaunt (lose familiar, must be a conjurer, gain an immediate 10-foot teleport once per day per int bonus)

Focused Specialist (lose one school of magic, cast 1 additional spell per spell level per day)

Spontaneous Divination (lose 5th-level bonus feat, may spontaneously cast any divination spell)

Chronos
2008-10-16, 09:12 PM
Paladin: Shadow Cloak Knight: Champions of Valor web enhancement: gain Move Silently and Hide as class skills, Favored Enemy, and Hide in Plain Site. LOSE NOTHING.If text trumps table. From the table, though, it lists only those abilities at those levels, not the Turn Undead and Remove Disease that a normal paladin would get. So I think it's probably intended to replace those. Of course, quality control is poor enough for the regular books, and even worse for web enhancements.

thegurullamen
2008-10-16, 10:52 PM
If text trumps table. From the table, though, it lists only those abilities at those levels, not the Turn Undead and Remove Disease that a normal paladin would get. So I think it's probably intended to replace those. Of course, quality control is poor enough for the regular books, and even worse for web enhancements.

Turn Undead and Remove Disease? (long pause...lone cough) Not really losing much then, are they?

Keld Denar
2008-10-17, 01:33 AM
Turn Undead is arguably the most powerful class feature that a paladin has. It allows a paladin to fuel divine feats, most notably Divine Might, a GREAT source of damage for any character.

thegurullamen
2008-10-17, 01:57 AM
Turn Undead is arguably the most powerful class feature that a paladin has. It allows a paladin to fuel divine feats, most notably Divine Power, a GREAT source of damage for any character.

This is more than likely just me talking, but the idea of using a mechanic not for what it was designed to do (repel or destroy undead) but to fuel another splat ability is just so very, very WRONG. I'm all for the flavor of divine feats, but basing them on Turn Undead is just a little silly, particularly as it pertains to Paladins. With clerics, it makes sense (because how often are you going to fight undead in a day, really?) But paladins needing to get TU just to get access to another unrelated ability? No, just no.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-17, 02:03 AM
How can TU attempts grant a Paladin Divine Power? I thought it was a Cleric-only spell.

Magnor Criol
2008-10-17, 02:04 AM
This is more than likely just me talking, but the idea of using a mechanic not for what it was designed to do (repel or destroy undead) but to fuel another splat ability is just so very, very WRONG. I'm all for the flavor of divine feats, but basing them on Turn Undead is just a little silly, particularly as it pertains to Paladins. With clerics, it makes sense (because how often are you going to fight undead in a day, really?) But paladins needing to get TU just to get access to another unrelated ability? No, just no.

I understand what you're saying - the fact that people say "they gotta get this so they can use it to do other stuff" is kinda off the wall - but it doesn't really bother me. It helps me to think about TU a bit differently than they may have originally intended it.

I sort of envision it not as a specific release of energy that's specifically keyed to affect undead. Rather, I imagine TU attempts as clerics and pallys tapping more directly than ever into their deity's power, sort of like opening a faucet, with them as the spigot. The checks then represent sort of how much power they get and how strong that power is.

Think of it more as a momentary release of divine power, and the abilities that are powered by them as training in how to modify and control that power, and it makes much more sense.

So when just done normally, TU attempts function great against undead, turning or destroying them (or the opposite, if you're evil). But if you have the proper training, instead of just letting that energy flow out in a circular field from you like uncontrolled water, you instead can funnel its power into doing other things, like focused damage or metamagic for divine spells (which are also energy from that same god) and whatnot.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-17, 02:08 AM
How can TU attempts grant a Paladin Divine Power? I thought it was a Cleric-only spell.The feat(Divine Spell Power), not the spell. It allows you to roll a Turning Check, with the result modifying his CL for the next spell he casts.

Keld Denar
2008-10-17, 02:09 AM
How can TU attempts grant a Paladin Divine Power? I thought it was a Cleric-only spell.

I ment Divine Might...my bad. Not Divine Power, Divine Might. Back of Complete Warrior, round page 127 I think. Great feat, and the ultimate source of bonus damage for your cha based cleric, paladin, or sorc gish with a little Sacred Exorcist mixed in.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-17, 02:30 AM
can't find any trace of that feat in Complete Warrior.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-17, 02:35 AM
can't find any trace of that feat in Complete Warrior.I found it. Page 106, in the Divine Feats section. Anyways, the Feat lets you add Cha to damage for one full round at the cost of a Turn/Rebuke attempt.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-17, 02:56 AM
Thanks for telling me. I suppose it's an okay feat (it doesn't sound that good to me to be honest). It would be good if you could use it after you'd determined whether you hit or now.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-10-17, 08:33 AM
Thanks for telling me. I suppose it's an okay feat (it doesn't sound that good to me to be honest). It would be good if you could use it after you'd determined whether you hit or now.

Well, the feat is used as a Free action, so the argument could be made that it can be used after an attack roll but before the damage roll. I wouldn't allow it as a GM, but your GM may be a bit more friendly.

I don't see how this can be described as 'the ultimate source of bonus damage for [cha-based classes]'. Even with a Cha of 20, that's only a +5 damage. For one round.

Person_Man
2008-10-17, 08:55 AM
Also,

Wizard:
Abrupt Jaunt (lose familiar, must be a conjurer, gain an immediate 10-foot teleport once per day per int bonus)

I would never give up a familiar. They're way too powerful (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=875062) when used correctly.



Focused Specialist (lose one school of magic, cast 1 additional spell per spell level per day)

I'm not a fan of giving up Batman flexibility. But if you have another arcane caster in the group who can cover your losses, this would be a very good idea.


Spontaneous Divination (lose 5th-level bonus feat, may spontaneously cast any divination spell)

Excellent catch. There are a ton of useful Divination spells out there. Also, this alternate class feature makes being a Diviner Specialist pointless.



If text trumps table. From the table, though, it lists only those abilities at those levels, not the Turn Undead and Remove Disease that a normal paladin would get. So I think it's probably intended to replace those. Of course, quality control is poor enough for the regular books, and even worse for web enhancements.

You're right about this. Of course, I'm not sure most DMs allow web material anyway, especially if it gives you Hide in Plain Site so quickly and easily.

Kurald Galain
2008-10-17, 09:12 AM
I would never give up a familiar. They're way too powerful (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=875062) when used correctly.
True, but that same handbook lists wizard as one of the worst classes for familiar usage :smallsmile: I find that familiars are mostly useful in higher-level campaigns, i.e. where you can imbue them with spells to cast, whereas abrupt jaunt is mostly useful in lower-level campaigns, i.e. starting at level 1, until you have so much of a self-buff routine that the jaunt simply isn't necessary.


I'm not a fan of giving up Batman flexibility. But if you have another arcane caster in the group who can cover your losses, this would be a very good idea.
Matter of taste, really :smallsmile: I like the flexibility of more spells per day. Again, I believe that at higher levels, you'll probably want the extra school, whereas at lower levels, extra spells per day really make a difference.

Starbuck_II
2008-10-17, 09:17 AM
I would never give up a familiar. They're way too powerful (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=875062) when used correctly.


Take Obtain Familiar get it back. Not that hard.

valadil
2008-10-17, 09:56 AM
Does anyone actually play with cheesed out familiars? I usually ditch mine or leave it in my backpack because as a caster I'm overshadowing everyone else without the extra slice of cheese.

OverdrivePrime
2008-10-17, 09:58 AM
I really do like a lot of the Alternate Class features, particularly those for the Ranger and Druid.

For rangers in particular, the Spiritual Guide alternate class feature from page 50 of Complete Champion is a godsend to me. I love playing rangers (or scout 4/ranger x) but I hate feeling like an ineffective pokemon trainer, always having to care for a weak animal companion that is generally more of a hinderance than an asset.
Spiritual Guide eliminates the ranger's animal companion and replaces it with a small bonus to Handle Animal, Knowledge (nature), Listen, Search, Spot and Survival, as well as a free use of commune with nature once per day - something that's fantastic for flavor but rarely used because rangers can cast so few spells. The benefits only function as long as the ranger is in the wilderness, but that's no less useful than the animal companion. Having a curious wolf or persnickety hawk in a city setting is generally a huge pain in the rear.

only1doug
2008-10-17, 10:05 AM
Hmm, I may have to take obtain familiar for my Gish, he's only got one level of Wizard so i didn't really want a familiar that is only any good for getting itself killed.

Eldariel
2008-10-17, 10:09 AM
Of course you should make use of your familiar if you happen to have one. I especially love Improved Familiar (Imp, Pseudodragon and Quasit are all quite impressive), but I'd use even the normal familiar more than that. Now, most of my gishes just pick some familiar with useful abilities and have it hide in a pocket or something during combat, but Beguilers, Unseen Seers, etc. use the familiar for skills and in combat, and Wizards/Sorcerers with "Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability"-spell to make Familiars effectively a secondary caster. Hexblades, Gishes and company can make Familiars into efficient combatants too, which is something to remember (Hexblade has full BAB and high HD giving it awesome familiars).

Really, it's probably not because of your familiar that you'll overshadow anyone. If you aren't gonna use it, it's probably a good idea to trade it away. Less hassle overall.

Keld Denar
2008-10-17, 10:28 AM
One often overlooked aspect of familiars is the ability to target them with "personal" spells. While most DMs I know BAN polymorph, they generally allow almost all of the specific polymorph forms from the polymorph subschool. This includes Trollshape, Displacer Shape, and Nightshade Transformation, etc. Normally, these spells are only meh, because they keep you from casting spells while polymorphed, but by casting them on your familiar can give you a decent tank in a pinch. Generally you don't want to share them with your familiar because of the no casting part and the staying within 5' part, but its perfectly fine to turn Squeeky the Wonder Weasel into a 9' slobbering troll and send him into the fray. Back him up with a few buffs and debuffs and you've got a little buddy that'll give the fighter a run for his money. :)

EvilElitest
2008-10-17, 03:11 PM
Hey guys, I just wanted to know what some people thought of some of the alternate class features presented throughout the books. Which ones you think are best, which ones you think are worthless; but most importantly, I have a few questions on the ones below:

Berserker Strength (Barbarian, Player's Handbook II): This barbarian variant allows you to enter some kinda "Super-rage" when reduced pretty low in hit points. I've never seen this feature commented on; is it at all useful?

Shapeshifter (Druid, Player's Handbook II): I see it mentioned every-so-often but I don't know how it actually compares to what you lose.

Divine Spirits (Paladin, Dungeonscape): I personally think it looks awesome, but is it really as useful as it seems?

Battle Sorcerer (Sorcerer, Unearthed Arcana): Fun? Useful? I've never gotten the chance to bring one into play for an extended period.

Spontaneous Dispel (Wizard, Unearthed Arcana): Dropping known spells to cast Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic sounds really useful, but is it worth losing spell slots?

Fiendish Flamewreath (Warlock, Player's Handbook II): It looks flavorful, but is it worth giving up Fiendish Resilience?

Dragonscale Husk (Fighter OR Cleric OR Paladin, any class that grants heavy armor, Dragon Magic): You lose Heavy Armor proficiency to grow scaly medium-armor that also gives Energy resistance. It sounds nice, but it also says it doesn't stack with any other AC bonus...

Thanks in advance!

wait, are you asking based on mechanical balance or just general usefulness and flavor?
from
EE

Xallace
2008-10-17, 03:15 PM
wait, are you asking based on mechanical balance or just general usefulness and flavor?
from
EE

Either/Or. There are plenty of flavorful alt-features out there, but their usefulness and balance is something that is not always readily apparent. Especially to one with little ability to compare class features, such as myself (I didn't even know there was such thing as "broken" until I went on the internet).

EvilElitest
2008-10-17, 03:16 PM
Either/Or. There are plenty of flavorful alt-features out there, but their usefulness and balance is something that is not always readily apparent. Especially to one with little ability to compare class features, such as myself (I didn't even know there was such thing as "broken" until I went on the internet).

well i think they are great in terms of flavor and general cool uses, particularly for antagonists. It adds some fun diversity and options to the class
from
EE

Temp.
2008-10-17, 03:32 PM
Does anyone actually play with cheesed out familiars? Always. Share Spell alone makes it worthwhile for most Gishes/Sneak Attackers; Share skills makes it priceless for Skillmonkeys; the extra turn per round makes it useful for everyone else (my last Wizard had a sort of Giaco-Raven; since I was scribing my own scrolls, the extra spell per round was reasonably affordable).