Roy's new move

[Linkavitch]

Anyone have any ideas about what sort of move Roy's grandpa taught him in the afterlife? (If there was already a thread about this, leave me a link, and please alert a moderator to delete.)

[Spiryt]

It looks that his strikes now will increase DC of Concentration checks made to cast defensively/continue casting when being hit.

Nothing more can be really said. The only actual feat from D&D that comes to my mind is Spellcasting harrier. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#spellcastingHarrier)

[Oregano]

Well it sounds like the Mageslayer feat or something from 3.5 D&D, it'd make sense as well, I wonder why we haven't had many 4E jokes.:smallconfused:

[Who_Da_Halfling]

Probably 4E jokes are either A) harder to make or B) harder to make work within a 3.5 world. Jokes about daily powers or whatnot don't make much sense to people with "class abilities."

-JM

[Requiem_Jeer]

It might be a custom feat, one that allows Roy to dispel buffs.

Or automatically disrupts spells, no concentration check allowed.

Something really nasty for spellcasters.

[Theodoriph]

Or automatically disrupts spells, no concentration check allowed.

That would be too broken. It's probably akin to one of the aforementioned feats that hinder Xykon's ability to cast defensively.

[Spiryt]

That would be too broken. It's probably akin to one of the aforementioned feats that hinder Xykon's ability to cast defensively.

From the pure D&D perspective it won't be broken at all. In fact kinda useless. If any high level warrior with large weapon is able to hit the mage in the first time, he is able to do so much damage, that:

- wizard would probably die right away
- won't pass the DC of concentration check beaucuse of too much damage (DC 10 + damage done.)

From the less restrictive point of OotS, it may be just OK feat.

[R.O.A.]

I wonder why we haven't had many 4E jokes.:smallconfused:

Because
1. It wouldn't work well to say OOts is now functioning under 4thed rules without doing an 'update' strip such as #1 was.
2. Most of the d&d players who read oots are most familar with v3 / 3.5, so might not 'get' the 4thed jokes

[derfenrirwolv]

Theres a non epic version of the feat that , ironically, is just as bad as the epic version. Sort of. i think its called magebane. It dissalows the use of concentration checks in order to avoid attacks of opportunity. The prerequisite is a feat that lets you AUTOMATICALLY dispell a magical protection every time you hit the wizard. Overpowered stuff, and very available before 5th level.

The kicker is that the feat is either useless or overpowered, depending on what you do with it. With a normal weapon, the feat is junk because a wizard can keep 5 foot stepping away from you for 5 or 6 rounds untill you MIGHT back them into a corner(and will do so even if they don't know you have the feat, rather than risk missing the concentration check)

With a reach weapon or a spiked chain though... you become god against casters. They'll never get another spell off again

[Requiem_Jeer]

That would be too broken. It's probably akin to one of the aforementioned feats that hinder Xykon's ability to cast defensively.

When I said 'disrupt', I meant the spell the caster would be casting right now.

We know that the feat is an attack. Thus, it cannot be a passive ability, such as hindering defensive casting.

A more reasonable assertion would be that whenever he attacks (such as by a readied action) a spellcaster while they are casting, the spell automatically interrupts, not even a concentration check to prevent it.

Alternatively, it could make him able to attack once, stacking on the damage of some or all of his secondary attacks (Like a melee manyshot), making the concentration DC so high no one could pass it. This is supported by the foreshadowing back when the evil adventuring party arrived. (it was mentioned that Horace one-shotting that cleric was due to a feat, and this might be it)

[Theodoriph]

From the less restrictive point of OotS, it may be just OK feat.

What other viewpoint is there in this comic. And last I checked, in the last battle with Xykon atop the Dragon, he couldn't kill Xykon in one hit. Or two...or three...or four etc.

[Theodoriph]

When I said 'disrupt', I meant the spell the caster would be casting right now.

We know that the feat is an attack. Thus, it cannot be a passive ability, such as hindering defensive casting.

A more reasonable assertion would be that whenever he attacks (such as by a readied action) a spellcaster while they are casting, the spell automatically interrupts, not even a concentration check to prevent it.

Alternatively, it could make him able to attack once, stacking on the damage of some or all of his secondary attacks (Like a melee manyshot), making the concentration DC so high no one could pass it. This is supported by the foreshadowing back when the evil adventuring party arrived. (it was mentioned that Horace one-shotting that cleric was due to a feat, and this might be it)

Just a note, hindering defensive casting does not have to be a passive action. I don't know where you get that idea. If I stab you in the heart, I am hindering your ability to live. It's in no way passive. Likewise, if Rich created a feat that allows Roy to attack and hinder said ability, it wouldn't be passive.

The problem with your theory is that if Xykon casts defensively, you don't get to attack him while he's casting his spell...unless Roy just keeps readying actions, which, if he were to repeat it ad nauseum, would be an annoying and easy to counter strategy. So it would make more sense for there to be some aspect of the feat which allows Roy to negate a spellcaster's option to cast defensively. Then he can make is AOO (perhaps a special attack) and force a concentration check.



Thank you for clarifying.

[RTGoodman]

Mage Slayer
You have studied the ways and weaknesses of spellcasters and can time your attacks and defenses against them expertly.

Prerequisite: Spellcraft 2 ranks, base attack bonus +3.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on Will saving throws. Spellcasters you threaten may not cast defensively (they automatically fail their Concentration checks to do so), but they are aware that they cannot cast defensively while being threatened by a character with this feat.
Special: Taking this feat reduces your caster level for all your spells and spell-like abilities by 4.

My money's on ^that, or something similar. And it's the first of a series of feats, which also includes Pierce Magical Concealment (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Pierce_Magical_Concealment,CAr) and Pierce Magical Protection (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Pierce_Magical_Protection,CAr), from the same book.

Also, I'd argue it's not overpowered AT ALL for a melee character to be able to fight a spellcaster effectively.

[Chronos]

With a reach weapon or a spiked chain though... you become god against casters. They'll never get another spell off againUnless, of course, they're more than ten feet away. Fighters are supposed to kick the butt of any wizard stupid enough to let a fighter get into melee range. That's supposed to be what keeps fighters balanced with spellcasters.

[the_tick_rules]

It's most likely one of the feats mentioned above or a OOTS custom.

[Lowkey]

The problem with the idea that it affects Xykon's attempts at casting defensively is that Xykon does not cast defensively. To him the best defense is a good offense.

[only1doug]

The problem with the idea that it affects Xykon's attempts at casting defensively is that Xykon does not cast defensively. To him the best defense is a good offense.

Casting Defensively is a term used to describe the caster making a concentration check while casting to avoid provoking attacks of opportunity, it takes no extra time and has no risk of failure (if concentration skill is high enough) and does not affect choice of spell.

Xykon can cast offensively while casting defensively.

If Xykon cast offensively without casting defensively it would provoke an attack of opportunity from nearby opponents. this might result in them hitting Xykon and forcing him to make a concentration roll to avoid losing the spell.

Xykon is an epic Level Lich and therefore has no Con stat (no bonus to concentration skill, no penalty either? / -5 penalty for 0 stat?) and we can assume that it will be one of the few skills he has maxed out (21+ ranks)

so Xykon can pass most concentration checks to avoid losing his spell under most circumstances.

Speculation: Ray's feat will cause the concentration check to be made at 10+double the damage taken instead of 10+damage taken.
this doesn't break the system, just gives melee a better chance of disrupting casters.

[The Rose Dragon]

Xykon is an epic Level Lich and therefore has no Con stat (no bonus to concentration skill, no penalty either? / -5 penalty for 0 stat?) and we can assume that it will be one of the few skills he has maxed out (21+ ranks)

Charisma modifier to Concentration checks. Which, as an epic sorcerer, Xykon has in spades.

[Fostire]

Charisma modifier to Concentration checks. Which, as an epic sorcerer, Xykon has in spades.

:smallconfused: Why would he use charisma modifier? last time I checked concentration goes with constitution

[The Rose Dragon]

If you don't have an ability score and you can use a skill associated with it, you use Charisma modifier instead.

It's written somewhere in Monster Manual.

[DrunkMonkGar]

If you don't have an ability score and you can use a skill associated with it, you use Charisma modifier instead.

It's written somewhere in Monster Manual.

And even if it isn't, undead specifically use charisma for concentration checks. Link. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType)

I would vote for Mage Slayer being the new feat, except I don't recall any caster in the entire comic casting defensively. V in particular eats an AoO every time he casts in melee. An interesting, though extremely unlikely, idea I just had is that everyone in the comic is treated as having Mage Slayer for free, and Roy is learning Pierce Magical Protection.

[derfenrirwolv]

Unless, of course, they're more than ten feet away. Fighters are supposed to kick the butt of any wizard stupid enough to let a fighter get into melee range. That's supposed to be what keeps fighters balanced with spellcasters.

Whats supposed to keep fighters balanced with spellcasters is the number of encounters and rounds of combat per day, and the fact that the contribution is measured in terms of what you're supposed to bring to your group in an advenuring party, not a duel. A fighter's contribution comes from his ability to avoid damage (through high ac) and absorb damage (high hit points) and his ability to swing a sword effectively every single round while a wizard is supposed to have to conserve their energies.

Alot of campaigns i've been in though have some element of role play and investigation, that means you can only fit 1, mayby two, fights into an average gaming session, which increases the power of a caster (See V's explanation about random encounters via a blackboard) Alot of groups i've seen fit in a similar number of fights, which either results in more rests/encounter or everyone having to "save" their characters between sessions, which most groups don't want to bother with.

In D&D with its abstract HP system it is VERY hard to keep a determined melee fighter from getting to the wizard unless the wizard is willing to withdraw completely from the fight or has a form of mobility denied to the melee. If the meleer in question is a monk,a rogue, or a barbarian smart enough to take ranks in tumble, forget about it. They can simply take an attack of opportunity from the BBGED 's minions and walk right up to big bad himself.

There's a reason this feat is on par with an epic level spell. Its THAT good. If getting an epic level spell at 3rd level isn't the definition of overpowered i don't know what is

[Sereg]

DrunkMonkGar, V once cast cone of cold defensively. Elan used his song to help V concentrate but V got irritated and cast it on Elan too.

[Spiryt]

In D&D with its abstract HP system it is VERY hard to keep a determined melee fighter from getting to the wizard unless the wizard is willing to withdraw completely from the fight or has a form of mobility denied to the melee. If the meleer in question is a monk,a rogue, or a barbarian smart enough to take ranks in tumble, forget about it. They can simply take an attack of opportunity from the BBGED 's minions and walk right up to big bad himself.


Or cast fly, solid fog or anything like that.

[Prowl]

I would vote for Mage Slayer being the new feat, except I don't recall any caster in the entire comic casting defensively.

V does it early on with a Cone of Cold that 'accidentally' hits Elan.

[DrunkMonkGar]

Yeah, you two are right. And rereading some old strips it looks like Redcloak and Tsukiko cast defensively often, if not always, but it looks like Xykon prefers to tank the hits and make the checks. Probably has something to do with his love of false hope.

[only1doug]

so Xykons probably got a concentration check of roughly +30
meaning he needs to roll 1d20 and add 20 and get more than the damage caused by the melee attack. assuming a poor concentration check you still need to hit Xykon for 22 damage to break his spell.

22 is a large amount for a single attack from an normal fighter and thats assuming a 1 on Xykons check. 41 assumes he got 20, thats a huge amount of damage for a fighter to do in one blow.

if the feat that Roy just learnt has the effect of doubling the effect of the damage for the purpose of concentration checks... well, that would make it more likely that Xycon could fail.

[derfenrirwolv]

Or cast fly, solid fog or anything like that

Flight would be a means of mobility, which the melee may or may not have access to. Its also situationaly usefull, as a good many dungeons and dragons encounters wind up in... well... dungeons. Solid fog would essentialy be withdrawing from combat, as you cant see through it to cast spells through it (see the reference to fog cloud). you could always drop it down and then start summoning critters, but then you're back where you started.


solid fog

Material Component
A pinch of dried, powdered peas combined with powdered animal hoof.

Heh..pea soup and Jello

[Nibelung]

so Xykons probably got a concentration check of roughly +30
meaning he needs to roll 1d20 and add 20 and get more than the damage caused by the melee attack. assuming a poor concentration check you still need to hit Xykon for 22 damage to break his spell.

Lets count, then.

Roy use a 2-handed weapon, so his str modifier gets 50% bonus. He has Power Attack because he already used Great Cleave, which needs PA. He show Weapon Specialization to Thog too. His sword have a "green energy who harm undeads" and a "25% increased chance to hit, with a similar bonus to damage". I bet this is a Undead Bane Greatsword +5. He is, at least, lvl 13. Let's start the math.

2d6 + 6 (18 str + 50%) + 2 (WS) + 7 (enhacement) + 2d6 (undead bane) + 10 (-5 PA) = 4d6 (14) + 25 = 39 damage per hit.

And i bet that Roy's str is greater than 18.

[Roderick_BR]

Just a note, hindering defensive casting does not have to be a passive action. I don't know where you get that idea. If I stab you in the heart, I am hindering your ability to live. It's in no way passive. Likewise, if Rich created a feat that allows Roy to attack and hinder said ability, it wouldn't be passive.

The problem with your theory is that if Xykon casts defensively, you don't get to attack him while he's casting his spell...unless Roy just keeps readying actions, which, if he were to repeat it ad nauseum, would be an annoying and easy to counter strategy. So it would make more sense for there to be some aspect of the feat which allows Roy to negate a spellcaster's option to cast defensively. Then he can make is AOO (perhaps a special attack) and force a concentration check.


Thank you for clarifying.
Just an addition: An AOO provoked from casting a spell will always force a concentration check from the caster, or lose the spell.

[DBJack]

Roy thanks his grandfather for teaching him "custom" moves. 'Custom' probably means that Roy's grandfather invented these moves himself, and is now imparting them to Roy. Therefore, this is probably a move unique to OoTS.

Also, Roy says "all of these moves," meaning that there are many of them. All of you are probably right.

[Ascension]

Also, Roy says "all of these moves," meaning that there are many of them. All of you are probably right.

I'm figuring it must be a homebrewed Tactical Feat in order for him to pay for learning several moves by spending a single feat.

[only1doug]

Lets count, then.

Roy use a 2-handed weapon, so his str modifier gets 50% bonus. He has Power Attack because he already used Great Cleave, which needs PA. He show Weapon Specialization to Thog too. His sword have a "green energy who harm undeads" and a "25% increased chance to hit, with a similar bonus to damage". I bet this is a Undead Bane Greatsword +5. He is, at least, lvl 13. Let's start the math.

2d6 + 6 (18 str + 50%) + 2 (WS) + 7 (enhacement) + 2d6 (undead bane) + 10 (-5 PA) = 4d6 (14) + 25 = 39 damage per hit.

And i bet that Roy's str is greater than 18.

there's a problem with your maths:
It didn't work for Roy before which is why he's learnt extra moves.


Is it Xykons AC which is the problem? lets drop power attack from the equation and give Roy his best chance of hitting:
2d6 + 6 (18 str + 50%) + 2 (WS) + 7 (enhancement) + 2d6 (undead bane) + 10 (-5 PA) = 4d6 (14) + 15 = 29 damage per hit.

leaves Xykon needing a 9 or better on his concentrate check (subject to Xykon's concentrate skill being roughly 30)


why not use Power attack? if you have a chance of a full attack option against a heavily armoured target PA is a bad choice, you are likely to do more damage with iterative attacks than PA will add to the successful strike.
and how good is 39 points of damage that just missed compared to 29 that hit?
if the enemy has DR then yes PA is the way through.

your build for Roy does more damage than my current (L12) melee character (a gish with selfbuffed +3 maul) who deals 3d8+1d6+6=23 damage per hit
and our party tank does just 1d10+9 unbuffed (1d10+1d6+11 at his current best).
(mind our builds are focused on surviving enemy criticals in a VP/WP system
(crits go direct to wounds, wounds=con score, all wounds gone=dead))
but I was forgetting that Roy's sword is quite so good (+5 undead bane, Sweet!)

[AceOfFools]

Broken 9th lvl two weapon fighter require only PHB, DMG and CW:

Dip samurai for EWP, then run fighter 4. I went monk 2 for saves, then exotic weapon master 1 (double str mod with katana)/Ronin 1. This could be made worse by replacing the monk levels with barbarian or some such.

+2 bastard sword and belt of giant's strength+4 are well within 9th wealth by level.

Starting with an 18 Str and bumping it ives a total of +18/+13 attack for d10 +18 (= +14 str +2 weapon +2 spec.) damage, prior to sneak.

...

AC is far from Xykon's most significant defense against Roy. That would the lich's DR 15/magic and bludgeoning.

All of Roy's attack lose 15 points of damage, so without PA, he's doing very little damage with each hit. It gets to the point without two handed weapons & PA (or y'know, the right materials), DR is virtually impossible to overcome.

[only1doug]

<snip>

AC is far from Xykon's most significant defense against Roy. That would the lich's DR 15/magic and bludgeoning.

All of Roy's attack lose 15 points of damage, so without PA, he's doing very little damage with each hit. It gets to the point without two handed weapons & PA (or y'know, the right materials), DR is virtually impossible to overcome.

Ok, so going back to Roys damage output

<snip>
2d6 + 6 (18 str + 50%) + 2 (WS) + 7 (enhacement) + 2d6 (undead bane) + 10 (-5 PA) = 4d6 (14) + 25 = 39 damage per hit.
<snip>

39-15=24
played against Xykons concentration of 30ish...

so a feat that increases the effect of damage done for the purposes of concentration check is still a good option.


<snip>
so Xykon can pass most concentration checks to avoid losing his spell under most circumstances.

Speculation: Ray's feat will cause the concentration check to be made at 10+double the damage taken instead of 10+damage taken.
this doesn't break the system, just gives melee a better chance of disrupting casters.

[nleseul]

When I said 'disrupt', I meant the spell the caster would be casting right now.

We know that the feat is an attack. Thus, it cannot be a passive ability, such as hindering defensive casting.



Roy thanks his grandfather for teaching him "custom" moves. 'Custom' probably means that Roy's grandfather invented these moves himself, and is now imparting them to Roy. Therefore, this is probably a move unique to OoTS.

Also, Roy says "all of these moves," meaning that there are many of them. All of you are probably right.I'm figuring it must be a homebrewed Tactical Feat in order for him to pay for learning several moves by spending a single feat.

What people need to remember is that the rules are an abstraction of real combat. Just because the rules define combat actions in the way they do doesn't mean that people literally stand around in five-foot squares, swinging their weapon once every six seconds. People in melee combat are exchanging blows continually; the actual attack action just represents the telling blow of that exchange.

So just because we see Roy sticking his sword into the dummy doesn't mean necessarily that he "attacked" the dummy in rules terms. Casting defensively doesn't magically mean that you're immune to swords, and hindering defensive casting doesn't mean that you stand there projecting a magical aura that just makes people not cast defensively. When you're casting defensively, you're trying to cast while also making an effort to dodge the non-decisive swings that are constantly coming at you from any melee fighter you're standing near. And someone who hinders defensive casting is just significantly more skilled at swinging his sword at casters trying to do that. Whether it's a passive ability or not, poking at the caster with a sword is going to be involved.

Also, multiple "moves" doesn't necessarily translate into multiple feats. Think about something like Mounted Combat. There are a lot of specific techniques that a person can use to be effective at fighting on horseback, but all of those techniques are assumed to be encompassed under the single Mounted Combat feat. Also, Horace says specifically, "Don't forget to spend a feat on them," implying that everything he taught Roy is effectively a single feat.

[starfalconkd]

I'm not sure Xykon has such a great concentration skill.
See here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html)
A smite slash from a paladin cause him to fumble his meteor swarm. Xykon was kind of a moron at lower levels, his less than 10 Int means he was only getting one skill point per level, until he got older and his Int went up.

[Lamech]

Lets count, then.

Roy use a 2-handed weapon, so his str modifier gets 50% bonus. He has Power Attack because he already used Great Cleave, which needs PA. He show Weapon Specialization to Thog too. His sword have a "green energy who harm undeads" and a "25% increased chance to hit, with a similar bonus to damage". I bet this is a Undead Bane Greatsword +5. He is, at least, lvl 13. Let's start the math.

2d6 + 6 (18 str + 50%) + 2 (WS) + 7 (enhacement) + 2d6 (undead bane) + 10 (-5 PA) = 4d6 (14) + 25 = 39 damage per hit.

And i bet that Roy's str is greater than 18.
He could barely hit Xykon the last time he fought him power attacking is out. Secondly he lost a level from death. Thirdly, he can't brake the DR. So we should take a good 25 off of that down to 14. And his secondary attacks have naught but a prayer of hitting. Hmm... won't roy full power attack on the next two strikes since he will probably need a twenty anyways. So 14 maybe a 30% chance, + 5% of 28 (from 7 power attack) and 5% 18. So 6.5 a round.
Lets run Xykon now...
Xykon on the other hand is epic and probably has a decent dex (as he did cartwheels in SoD so +13/+8. His will probably hit except on a one and the crit will take care of that. So 1d6 time two attacks is 7 damage around. Xykon probably has the improved toughness and probably came to life in a desacrated area, so lv 22 = 22d12+44= 11(13)+44=121+66= 187hp. Roy on the other hand has 11d10+10+12(con bonus) so 60.5+10+12*4ish=70.5+48=120hp.

As things stand right now even if Roy's ablity prevents casters from leaving melee and casting spells, Roy dies. Xykon can beat him in melee, no amount spell disruption will change it.

Of course, I completely ignored Xykons paralyze touch. Unless Roy is warded by something every hit will be a save or lose around the area of DC 30. A dispell magic by Xykon will probably drop the ward fairly quickly and I don't see how he can close without Xykon getting a shot in.

[RMS Oceanic]

Point of Order: Roy DID get through the damage reduction. Look at Xykon in 442: he's got all sorts of cracks on his body, and he needs Tsukiko to heal him in 446.

[Nibelung]

I take of 5 points in Power Attack because, in most of time, this is a "safe spot" to throw PA against most enemies. A pure fighter have a big attack bonus, and PA acts exactly using this extra bonus to something usefull.

Again, lets suppose that Roy is lvl 13 with a 18 str. According with the Class and Level Geekery, this is underestimate Roy's power.

13 (lvl) +7 (sword enhacement) +1 (weapon focus) +4 (str) = +24 to hit.

A basic lich AC (according with MM) is 23, using a good Armor Bracers and Ring of Protection. Of course, Xykon isnt a basic lich and probly have a batter AC, maybe near 30. But this still is a good chance to Roy to hit even his third attack without any PA.

Knowing that he have some DR, using PA looks like a good tactic.

Lamech: Xykon wasnt raised in a desacrated area. You said you read SoD, so you know about the place where he was when he turned in a lich. And just do cartwheels dont mean a +13/+8 dex modifier. Any child can do a cartwheel. :smalltongue:

[DrunkMonkGar]

What people need to remember is that the rules are an abstraction of real combat. Just because the rules define combat actions in the way they do doesn't mean that people literally stand around in five-foot squares, swinging their weapon once every six seconds. People in melee combat are exchanging blows continually; the actual attack action just represents the telling blow of that exchange.

Yes, but we're talking about OotS and people do stand in five-foot squares (sort of) and, usually, wait their turn to attack. See here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0018.html), here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0175.html), and, arguably, here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html).

To starfalconkd: Well, he was simultaneously hit by O-Chul and smitten by nameless-paladin girl, that adds up, literally.

[only1doug]

Heh, figured out what Roys new move does.

It kills casters in one shot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0498.html)

only realised it because someone else had linked the strip in another thread.

Edit: the feat may be the start of a feat chain that leads to being able to kill a caster in one blow.

[Suzuro]

.....what does fishing have to do with killing casters...?


-Suzuro

[derfenrirwolv]

take of 5 points in Power Attack because, in most of time, this is a "safe spot" to throw PA against most enemies. A pure fighter have a big attack bonus, and PA acts exactly using this extra bonus to something usefull


It depends on whether or not you move. If a fighter with a good + hit has to move, he's probably safe throwing a few points in power attack. If you have multible attacks then making a second attack miss probably isn't worth the extra few points of damage.

The funny thing about power attack is the more damage you do with a swing the LESS it makes sense to use it. If you need a 2 or higher to hit, You need to get 1/20th of your damage for each point of power attack you spend.

[Zeful]

.....what does fishing have to do with killing casters...?


-Suzuro

Second Panel:
Roy:And that move you did? Where you killed the cleric in one Shot
Roy's Grandpa: Oh yeah. Heh. Great feat, pain in the ass to learn though.
Roy: Oh

[Nibelung]

The funny thing about power attack is the more damage you do with a swing the LESS it makes sense to use it. If you need a 2 or higher to hit, You need to get 1/20th of your damage for each point of power attack you spend.

Or maybe its just your pro-cons about the 3rd or 4th asttack hitting. Honestly, i never expect that the last attack conects, so if i could hit the 3rd attack with a 15, its nice enough to me. And most high-level pure warriors can hit with PA in -5. More math ahead.

20 (lvl) +2 (w. focus) +5 (magic weapon) +8 (str 26, 15 starting) = +35 to hit. Without any other buffs and only core feats. With some friendly help, this thing can surpass +40 easily. Most things of CR 17~20 have an AC of 30~35. Thrid attack being with a 10? Win.

With Roy, i could expect him to use more often yet PA because (1) his weapon is very powerfull for his level, (2) even being a Lich, Xykon is a caster, and all casters have crappy AC, and (3) He depends of his magic bonus so much (magic weapon and buffs) that while he was with his greatclub, he couldnt even land a single blow in Miko without a flank.

So... anyone still see any problem with Xykon's DR, and how Roy can surpass it whitout even try too hard? :smallbiggrin:

[MReav]

If you don't have an ability score and you can use a skill associated with it, you use Charisma modifier instead.

It's written somewhere in Monster Manual.

No, only Concentration checks. Undead don't use their Cha score for extra HP (until some MM3 Monsters later), nor do they add it to their Fort saves (unless they're blackguards).

[Frosty]

This is why you wantto have stuff that makes PA scale even more like Leap Attack. You need these feats to hit harder as you level.

[pjackson]

Whats supposed to keep fighters balanced with spellcasters is the number of encounters and rounds of combat per day, and the fact that the contribution is measured in terms of what you're supposed to bring to your group in an advenuring party, not a duel. A fighter's contribution comes from his ability to avoid damage (through high ac) and absorb damage (high hit points) and his ability to swing a sword effectively every single round while a wizard is supposed to have to conserve their energies.


That theory is disproved by the facts.
By staying out of melee a wizard avoids damage far more effectively than a fighter who goes into it.
Doing damage is an ineffective way of fighting compared to what a wizard can do.
By using his spells the wizard can end the fight faster, conserving everyone's energies.



Alot of campaigns i've been in though have some element of role play and investigation, that means you can only fit 1, mayby two, fights into an average gaming session, which increases the power of a caster (See V's explanation about random encounters via a blackboard) Alot of groups i've seen fit in a similar number of fights, which either results in more rests/encounter or everyone having to "save" their characters between sessions, which most groups don't want to bother with.


That assumes you get to rest between sessions, which does not always happen in my experience.
If the campaign has a lot of fights between rests then by half way through first level the wizards should have a stock of scrolls so that they still don't run out of spells. They get the feat to make them for free.
The clerics don't, so they are weakened by having to save their spells for healing, and when they run out of cures it's the fighters need to rest, before the wizards do.



In D&D with its abstract HP system it is VERY hard to keep a determined melee fighter from getting to the wizard unless the wizard is willing to withdraw completely from the fight or has a form of mobility denied to the melee. If the meleer in question is a monk,a rogue, or a barbarian smart enough to take ranks in tumble, forget about it. They can simply take an attack of opportunity from the BBGED 's minions and walk right up to big bad himself.


Not a major problem for a smart wizard, who has spells that give him such movement (even if only spider climb and levitation at low levels), plus spells with a much longer range than a normal rounds movement, even for a monk (such as sleep at first level). Then there are spells that hinder movement (grease) and ones that provide good protection from melee attacks (mirror image).
Also if the BBEG was smart when hiring minions that AoO would have been a trip or a grab, stopping the melleer.



There's a reason this feat is on par with an epic level spell. Its THAT good. If getting an epic level spell at 3rd level isn't the definition of overpowered i don't know what is

Sleep is overpowered at first level - mass save or lose.
The Mageslayer feat justs gives the meleer a better chance when adjacent. Mirror image makes that a small chance, so wizards do have a counter.

[Roderick_BR]

I'm figuring it must be a homebrewed Tactical Feat in order for him to pay for learning several moves by spending a single feat.
That would be sweet. And I can see people ready to stat it out after Roy shows it in the strip :smallbiggrin:

[AKA_Bait]

That would be sweet. And I can see people ready to stat it out after Roy shows it in the strip :smallbiggrin:

Well, if it is a homebrew feat I'm not really sure if we will get to stat it out beyond some general effects. Unless the actual mechanics are at some point explained by Roy, I don't see us being able to determine anything for sure just based upon seeing it used in combat.

[Kcalehc]

Is it Xykons AC which is the problem? lets drop power attack from the equation and give Roy his best chance of hitting:
2d6 + 6 (18 str + 50%) + 2 (WS) + 7 (enhancement) + 2d6 (undead bane) + 10 (-5 PA) = 4d6 (14) + 15 = 29 damage per hit.

leaves Xykon needing a 9 or better on his concentrate check (subject to Xykon's concentrate skill being roughly 30)


4D6 is only an average of 14. Sometimes it will be higher... something that seems to have been forgotten during the discussion. With a range of (4D6+15) giving 19 - 39, some hits will be blocked and some will not.