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Comet
2008-10-15, 03:50 PM
While I think that the 4th ed. encounter making guidelines are very good and helpful, they don't seem to mesh particularly well with parties consisting of fewer than four members.

In my particual case we only have two players. They're both 1st level so the official guideline would be to make each encounter with a XP budget of 200 or so points (100 per character at 1st level).
Now, the problem is that 200 XP doesn't really get you anything other than two enemies max or five or so minions. This in turn doesn't really work with the monster roles and such. Artillery, for example can't really hide behind a meat shield when he's alone against the party.

How much of a problem is this really? Is it OK to have smaller encounters?
Also, how much more difficult can I make the encounters before making them unentertaining for the players? If 200 XP is the regular budget for this party's encounters, how much higher can I go? 400? 800?

Thank you muchly for any input.

Erk
2008-10-15, 03:57 PM
Two first level characters can still fight up to about six first level monsters with no problems. And with clever design you can have even more. For example, say you're fighting kobolds. Rather than kobold skirmishers, include kobold minions to defend the slingers at close range. You can fit in two slingers and four minions to make a decent fight that is reasonably balanced and easy. Throw in a skirmisher to crank it up to a decent challenge. Add a dire rat to make it pretty tough but still totally doable.

Terrain features can also make a smaller number of enemies challenging. Imagine having only two slingers, but they are on ledges above the players with little nooks to hide in. On their turns, they use shifty to step out, attack the players, then use their move action to duck back under cover. The players cannot get it with a direct attack and have to use their brains (eg. ready an action for when the kobold steps out)

Have one slinger doing that while two minions below pester the PCs. Voila, open fighting as well as a tricksy bugger up top, but still a small fight.

Once the PCs pass level 2-3, you are free to use lower level monsters to get nice and fullfilling encounters. It's great fun.

erikun
2008-10-15, 05:20 PM
Remember that "five or so" minions can be quite deadly, depending on what two classes we're talking about. Leader + Striker can't really hit more that once target each in a round, so they are easier to swarm. Defender + Controller can normally handle larger numbers, but don't deal the same damage to elites or solos. You can try some combination, like Paladin + Warlock, to try to cover all your bases, but they're still easily to overpower or overrun. (Well, easier that 5 people together.)

JaxGaret
2008-10-15, 05:48 PM
Now, the problem is that 200 XP doesn't really get you anything other than two enemies max or five or so minions. This in turn doesn't really work with the monster roles and such. Artillery, for example can't really hide behind a meat shield when he's alone against the party.

Use lower level monsters. Use the DMG guidelines for reducing monster level if you can't find enough level-appropriate monsters.


Is it OK to have smaller encounters?

Yes. Varying encounter size is usually a good idea, though.


Also, how much more difficult can I make the encounters before making them unentertaining for the players? If 200 XP is the regular budget for this party's encounters, how much higher can I go? 400? 800?

Double the standard XP budget is a very difficult encounter, usually reserved for climactic battles. Since you only have two PCs, try and not to pull out too many hard encounters on them. If one of them goes down, they'll be in a pretty pickle. I would suggest trying to keep most encounters pretty close to the standard encounter budget. You can always make the encounters harder if they seem to be cakewalking through them.

Keep in mind that you can also introduce terrain features advantageous to the NPCs instead of increasing the XP budget of the encounter.


Thank you muchly for any input.

You're welcome :smallsmile:

Yakk
2008-10-15, 08:41 PM
A level 2 or level 3 encounter for a group will be harder, but not crazy-hard.

Level 3 to 5 starts getting into "party wipe" territory.

Between that, and healthy use of minions, you can make a good encounter at low levels. As they gain levels, their budget will go up, and you can use multiple lower level opponents instead of a few higher level ones.

Arbitrarity
2008-10-15, 10:53 PM
Hm, how much XP is a 0'th level creature worth? ~75? -1'st level? ~50?

Eorran
2008-10-16, 03:09 PM
Keep in mind your party's roles, and if you play to their strengths instead of their weaknesses, you can make encounters toughter.
IE, Defender & striker work well against single-target monsters (an Elite or Solo). Defender & controller? Good tactics let the controller waste them while the defender keeps them back. Give the players opportunity to find a set of tactics that work well for them. (Don't make smart monsters obviously stupid - they should try to gain advantage when they can, but if a fighter and melee ranger, say, happen across a group of all artillery by chance, they still have the advantage.)
How you use the monsters you have makes a very large difference in 4e.

NeoVid
2008-10-17, 02:02 AM
You could try solving the problem from the other direction: Have your players each run 2 characters. You'll get an average sized party that's much easier to plan for.

It's worked for the undersized games I've been in.

DM Raven
2008-10-17, 03:42 AM
If you're going to be running a two player game for an extended period of time, you could also include more non-traditional encounters. Challenges like traps can be good when used against smaller parties. Puzzles are also a great challenge for a smaller group. How about a skill challenge involving diplomacy, navigation, or some other non-combat encounter where players can shine. If you're looking to keep it more battle oriented, roll up some NPCs and have them join your two members. Heck you could even have your people team up with some humanoid "monster" mercenaries. Might be interesting to fight with goblins or orcs as allies. Just make sure your NPCs don't outshine the players...unless you intend them to be an intricate part to your story, the PCs should be the main heroes.

Yakk
2008-10-17, 10:04 AM
Hm, how much XP is a 0'th level creature worth? ~75? -1'st level? ~50?
There aren't any 0'th level creatures in core.

If there where, there is a pretty clear "double every 4 or 5 levels" (I forgot off the top of my head) pattern to the XP values. So you just take the XP of a higher level creature (the appropriate one), and halve it.

This really doesn't work that well, as you end up with a "brutes have less HP than other monsters at level -1?!" problem.

Erk
2008-10-17, 12:08 PM
There aren't any 0'th level creatures in core.

If there where, there is a pretty clear "double every 4 or 5 levels" (I forgot off the top of my head) pattern to the XP values. So you just take the XP of a higher level creature (the appropriate one), and halve it.

This really doesn't work that well, as you end up with a "brutes have less HP than other monsters at level -1?!" problem.

Or you can just use the guide in the DMG to lowering monster levels by dropping defenses and attack bonuses. It works well enough even on level 1 monsters to just make them a tad easier to hit and worse at hitting PCs, call them "level 0" and cut the XP in half. Not a bad idea really, I will probably do that for the next encounter in my 2pc game, since we're pretty sure we can't handle it otherwise.