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Ricky S
2008-10-16, 03:45 AM
Hi.

I was wondering what the ideal 4 member party makeup would be? and any reasons for it. Much appreciated:smallsmile:

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-16, 03:53 AM
Depends on what you want the party to do. Druid/Cleric(with DMM cheese)/Foc Spec Transmuter(banning Evoc/Enchant/Abjur)Wizard/Dark Whisper Gnome Beguiler(Mindbender/Shadowcraft) is the best from a pure power standpoint, IMHO, but any of that is replacable with similar ones from the big 5. Otherwise, just go with whats fun. Remember, the Hobbit was 13 Dwarven Fighters and a Halfling Thief. :smallwink:

Gorbash
2008-10-16, 04:00 AM
1. Wizard - Polymorpher
2. Wizard - Battlefield Controler
3. Wizard - Debuffer
4. Wizard - Buffer

Congratulations, you just won D&D! :smallbiggrin:

Ricky S
2008-10-16, 04:08 AM
Yea I just wanted personal opinions on what would be the best party for every aspect of dnd ie all rounder group. Also any previous groups you have played. I'm just curious. My previous party was a halfling cleric, human scout, human crusader and gnome wizard. It was really fun :smallbiggrin:

kamikasei
2008-10-16, 04:10 AM
I'm partial to Team Genius myself. Wizard, Warblade, Archivist, Factotum.

Miraqariftsky
2008-10-16, 04:22 AM
Iconic four PCs are a fighter, a cleric, a wizard and a rogue... or any variation of the tank, the mystic, the arcanist and the sneak.

The tank gets up close and personal with the enemy--- hacking, stabbing and crushing away, dealing large amounts of damage, pinning them down and absorbing a lot of damage in turn. Without the tank, foes can easily overwhelm the other members of the party. Classes that primarily qualify as tanks are fighters and barbarians.

The mystic is the party's main source of magical healing, patching them up when hurt. Of course they can cast a whole lot more spells that do everything from casting a little light to calling down a miracle but day in, day out with a four-person party? They'll be lookin' fer healin', yeah. And buffs, too. Classes that qualify for mystics are usually either clerics or druids. Clerics are usually good at dealing with undead whereas druids are good at dealing with animals and other beasts. Recently, there have also come the favoured souls, a new class that emphasizes a more intuitive and inherent call to the divine for the character, rather than an active study of divine mysteries.

The arcanist provides the firepower for the party, oftentimes. When not buffing, divining or crafting, arcanists are there, blasting away. They're usually wizards and sorcerers.

The sneak... well, sneaks around the battlefield, or in this case, the dungeon, scouting ahead and dealing death from the shadows. The sneak is often a flanking buddy with the tank and backstabs whoever the tank has engaged. Also, the sneak's huge bevy of skills allows her to excel at anything from socialization, to athletics, to perception and even to dabbling in some magic. Often, this niche in the four-person party is filled by a rogue.

However, there are also classes that can fill multiple roles. The paladin can heal, deal with undead and fight well. The ranger fights well and is very wise in the ways of the woods. Bards have many of the rogue's skills as well as some might in magic. Et cetera.

Ideal four PCs? Any that you personally like! If ye enjoy playing a certain class, then go for it!

SolkaTruesilver
2008-10-16, 04:30 AM
A wizard - cleric - Duskblade - Artificier team might be very, very powerful...

I don't see what it lacks in term of power..

FMArthur
2008-10-16, 04:43 AM
4 changeling Chameleons, routinely swapping roles to make things more interesting. The roleplaying involved is quite literally insane.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-16, 04:55 AM
I tend to like to fill the tratitional 4 rolls, so I'd probably go with Crusader as a Tank/secondary Healer, Cleric as a Healer/secondary Tank, Wizard focussing on battlefield control, buff and Utility spells and a Rogue as a Skill Monkey.

kamikasei
2008-10-16, 05:04 AM
Interesting sub-problem: what'd be the best team composition so that every member can cover for at least one other in an emergency? For example, a cleric who's a primary healer and a secondary tank, as Tempest Fennac mentions.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-16, 05:12 AM
Beguiller as an Arcanist/Skill Monkey, Artificier as a Skill Monkey/Item-Based Magic-Caster/Trapfinder and Cleric and Warblade would probably work well. The drawback is that the Artificier and Beguiller would need a lot of items to be as versatiles as they would probably need to be.

EDIT: Core Druid could possibly be better then the Cleric for this purpose due to the Animal Companion and Wildshape's brokeness.

Hal
2008-10-16, 05:40 AM
All Bard. It's D&D: Rock Band.

kamikasei
2008-10-16, 05:48 AM
Team Evil Is Sexy: Warlock, Binder, Dread Necromancer... Hexblade/Blackguard?

Swooper
2008-10-16, 05:51 AM
I prefer a rather traditional four-man party of melee, divine caster, skillmonkey and arcane caster as well:

A Warblade or a Crusader for the mle role (Warblade is better for dealing damage while crusaders make better tanks I think).
A cleric for healing and secondary mle.
A rogue (or possibly a factotum - I have little experience with them) for skills and secondary mle (or secondary everything in the factotum's case).
A wizard for the party's arcane needs.
The fifth character is where it gets interesting. This could be virtually any decent class. The bard is often mentioned, but duskblade, warlock, swordsage, hexblade (with the unofficial fix), beguiler, druid, psychic warrior; even dragon shaman or marshal all make valid contributions.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-16, 05:54 AM
If I added a 5th person, Druid would probably be my 1st choice if I was using a melee class other then the Crusader. If I had a Crusader, I'd probably pick the Dragon Shaman, with Bard being my 2nd choice. A Psionic character would be good, though. (An Ardent could be used in place of thre Cleric.)

Curmudgeon
2008-10-16, 06:30 AM
The best choice for party makeup is going to depend somewhat on level. Some solutions only work at low levels; others don't start to make sense until later. If you really want each party member to be able to serve as backup for others, here are my choices:

Healer with some backup for both arcane caster and tank: Cloistered Cleric with Magic domain and Knowledge Devotion feat. Has some overlap into otherwise arcane spells, and can use arcane wands and scrolls. Knowledge Devotion gives decent bonuses to attack and damage -- but this only makes sense from level 7 on, because a weak Cleric needs Divine Power to be able to enter combat.

Sneak with some backup for tank: Rogue tricked out for sneak attack (Penetrating Strike alternative class feature, Craven feat, keen rapier with Greater Demolition and Greater Undeath weapon augment crystals). At higher levels add a 1-level dip into Shadowdancer for Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight, because Greater Invisibility is frequently going to be ineffective.

Tank with some backup for sneak: Swordsage/Factotum (dip) taking full advantage of the typo that gives x6 for Swordsage skills at 1st level:
Class Skills (6 + Int modifier per level, 6 at 1st level):

Arcane Caster with some backup for healer: Wizard/Ur-Priest/Mystic Theurge using Practiced Spellcaster feat and any of several ways to gain early entry into MT.

Jack_Simth
2008-10-16, 07:25 AM
Hi.

I was wondering what the ideal 4 member party makeup would be? and any reasons for it. Much appreciated:smallsmile:
Ideal: Whatever makes everyone have the most fun (D&D is, first and foremost, a game, after all; Fun's the fundamental point).

Mechanically strong:
1) 2 Clerics of the same deity, abusing DMM(Persist) and nightsticks on party-level buffs (Mass Lesser Vigor, Recitation, Holy Aura (or whichever one matches the party's alignment), Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Elation, and so on) (Healers, Buffers, and Tanks - and just about anyone can tank if they've got all of those buffs up...). With two, they can afford to take the Elemental Summoning reserve feat to play trapfinders if needed (have elemental run on ahead, watch with a DMM(Persistent Spell) Detect Magic)
2) 1 Beguiler (Trapfinder, backup arcanist; has UMD, and thus can use wands of Cure Light as a backup healer, too); follows the same deity as the Clerics.
3) 1 Specialist Wizard (Ban Enchantment and Illusion - Beguiler has that covered); makes sure to take the Elemental Summoning Reserve Feat, and Permanency Arcane Sight, to play the party trapfinder if needed (can do it earlier by repeated castings of Unseen Servant (who drags a 100 lbs bag of rocks) and Detect Magic).

Ethdred
2008-10-16, 08:45 AM
Yea I just wanted personal opinions on what would be the best party for every aspect of dnd ie all rounder group. Also any previous groups you have played. I'm just curious. My previous party was a halfling cleric, human scout, human crusader and gnome wizard. It was really fun :smallbiggrin:

Congratulations, you have just answered your own question. The ideal party is one in which all the players are friends who are enjoying themselves.

JupiterPaladin
2008-10-16, 08:47 AM
4 monks with ranks in Perform: Oratory (or whatever you consider singing). They run across the land very fast and when trouble comes up they sing at the enemy:

"Hey hey we're the monk-eez"

:smallconfused:....

Ba-dump-bump!

I'm actually a big fan of the iconic 4. All those other retardo classes that can fill multiple roles were only printed intentionally to be overpowered to invoke that "gotta have it" feeling to sell the books.

"Hey guys I know how to sell more books, lets remake all of the classes but better and rename them... again... and again... and add more full caster prestige classes with no drawbacks... and make the class features sick!"

only1doug
2008-10-16, 09:14 AM
I've seen a webcomic where the players break their GM by having 4 dwarven clerics:

"my turn to be tank: divine power"
"my turn to be buffer: Enlarge"
"my turn to be Nuker: Flamestrike"
"i'll buff as well: Bull strength"

result: tons of healing on demand, all can tank, all can buff, all can nuke.

Go team cleric
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0077.html)

Keld Denar
2008-10-16, 10:25 AM
Best party for an arbitrarily large number of encounters/day?

Bardsader Tank (you only need 1 IC if you keep it going all day)
Dragonfire Adept crowd controller
Dragon Shaman backup healer/tanker/buffer
Factotum13/Chameleon7 skillmonkey damager/caster/whatever

This party is almost completely on a /encounter or unlimited supply of resources, with the Bardsader providing massive buffage and nigh unlimited healing, the DFA providing CC/BC and a little sumplimental damage, the DS augementing the DFA and providing Vigor Aura and a bit of melee support (buffed by the Bardsader), and the Factotum doing what it is that factotums do best....everything.

This party could literally do it all day without having issues. The only thing I could think of that might hinder the party is a lack of the abilty to cure status ailements like ability damage (UMD Factotum?) and whole party flight (again, UMD Factotum?), which could be an issue against something like a dragon or a couple of the larger demons that fly, but in an underground dungeon type scenario that's basically 2D, this party could probably tackle the WLD in a single "day".

DragonBaneDM
2008-10-16, 11:06 AM
I've seen a webcomic where the players break their GM by having 4 dwarven clerics:

"my turn to be tank: divine power"
"my turn to be buffer: Enlarge"
"my turn to be Nuker: Flamestrike"
"i'll buff as well: Bull strength"

result: tons of healing on demand, all can tank, all can buff, all can nuke.

Go team cleric
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0077.html)

Hahaha! My favorite character, too! That's superb, Doug!

But Ethdred has a good point too. The all around idea I have when making a party is that I don't want anyone to play the same class if at all possible.

Having the same abilities gets boring, and often leads to not-so-friendly rivalries among those who share classes. I DMd two wizards once. Both were power gamers.

All around, aim for the whole tank, mystic, arcane, scout combonation. But as long as the party's balanced and fun, you've done your job well.

*shudder*

Telonius
2008-10-16, 11:52 AM
My ideal 4-person party:

Knight
Cloistered Cleric
Sorcerer
Rogue

Add in a Bard or a Warlock if we're going for 5.

Swooper
2008-10-16, 12:00 PM
Tank with some backup for sneak: Swordsage/Factotum (dip) taking full advantage of the typo that gives x6 for Swordsage skills at 1st level:
I really hope you're joking by taking that typo seriously :smallconfused:

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-16, 12:27 PM
"Hey guys I know how to sell more books, lets remake all of the classes but better and rename them... again... and again... and add more full caster prestige classes with no drawbacks... and make the class features sick!"Druid 20 is still almost the most powerful build in the game. Don't try to say splatbooks are responsible for imbalance.

monty
2008-10-16, 12:42 PM
Druid, druid, druid, wizard. There's your 4-man party. Tank, buffer/healer, skill-monkey, and wizard respectively.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-16, 12:56 PM
Would Druid really work for that roll without either a variant which grants Trapfinding or until they qualify for the Elemental Reserve Feat at level 7?

Another_Poet
2008-10-16, 01:15 PM
I've always thought that 1 druid and 3 clerics (healer/buffer, melee/buffer and necromancer) would make the perfect team.

It would also answer the age-old question: how much XP do you get for killing your DM with a heart attack?

Edea
2008-10-16, 01:26 PM
Four people with a high enough skill modifier in Knowledge (the planes) to call upon Pazuzu at 1st level. So yeah, probably four Wizards, or any other INT-based class that has Knowledge (the planes) as a skill.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-16, 01:27 PM
What would summoning Pazuzu be useful for, Edea?

arguskos
2008-10-16, 01:28 PM
What would summoning Pazuzu be useful for, Edea?
First, hi thar Tempest. /waves

Second, summoning Pazuzu lets you make a wish of him, which he will typically grant. From there, you get a candle of invocation, and begin the long path towards Pun-Pun-ery.

-argus

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-16, 01:31 PM
Thanks. Punpun involves being a scaly creature while using the Candle to summon a Djinni to cast Wish to change your form, right?

Kurald Galain
2008-10-16, 01:33 PM
Thanks. Punpun involves being a scaly creature while using the Candle to summon a Djinni to cast Wish to change your form, right?

That's one way of approaching it, yes.

Another simply involves invoking Pazuzu, which only requires a knowledge check and no candle. Then use one of the wishes he grants you to transform into a scaly creature.

arguskos
2008-10-16, 01:35 PM
Well, actually, not really. You are a LG paladin. You summon Pazuzu (changing your alignment to LE). You wish for a LE Candle of Invocation, and summon an Efreeti. You then wish to be a Sarrukh, and to have an Animal Companion that is a lizard or something. You then abuse the Sarrukh's abilities. You and your animal companion are now beyond godhood. Congrats, you win everything.

-argus

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-16, 01:47 PM
Thanks. Which book are Sarrukhs in?

chiasaur11
2008-10-16, 01:47 PM
Well, actually, not really. You are a LG paladin. You summon Pazuzu (changing your alignment to LE). You wish for a LE Candle of Invocation, and summon an Efreeti. You then wish to be a Sarrukh, and to have an Animal Companion that is a lizard or something. You then abuse the Sarrukh's abilities. You and your animal companion are now beyond godhood. Congrats, you win everything.

-argus

No, it's even better. You switch to Neutral Good. You probably slide a tiny bit towards Evil with that Efreeti summon, but not much. And, instead of wishing to be a Sarrukh, you wish for another candle, to move somewhere safe out of the range of the gods (can't be too careful), and one wish (assuming you're a Kobold, like all good citizens should be) to spare for a human sized hamster ball or whatnot. Then you call in the Sarrukh, and have it Manipulate form you so you have manipulate form. It leaves, and now you can give yourself any power or ability you want. And you don't even need to become evil.

This delicious Cheddar brought to you by Serpent Kingdoms, and the letter "P".

arguskos
2008-10-16, 01:51 PM
Ah. I like yours more. XD Also, I thought that summoning a demon prince knowingly probably shoved you straight to EVIL (do not pass Neutral, do not collect 200gp).

Sarrukhs are from Serpent Kingdoms, Tempest.

-argus

chiasaur11
2008-10-16, 01:56 PM
Ah. I like yours more. XD Also, I thought that summoning a demon prince knowingly probably shoved you straight to EVIL (do not pass Neutral, do not collect 200gp).

Sarrukhs are from Serpent Kingdoms, Tempest.

-argus

Nope.

A wish from smaller, eviller P only moves you one step closer to Chaotic Evil, with a preference for Chaotic. One move only drops a Paladin to Neutral Good.

Weird, but rules legal.

Of course, Pun Pun's ascent to godhood is even better from a rule standpoint.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-16, 01:57 PM
I don't have access to Serpent Kingdoms. :smallfrown: What are that races abilities?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-10-16, 01:57 PM
A party of 4 Clerics can easily fill all the iconic roles and accomplish any adventure.

Tank: Human Cleric of Zarus (RoD) 6/ Divine Oracle 4/ Contemplative 10, War and Strength domains at 1, Oracle at 7, Law at 11, Destiny at 16, DMM: Persist at 3, Extra Turning, Power Attack, Craft Rod, Leap Attack, and probably Quicken Spell at 18. He can make Night Sticks and any Metamagic Rods of any metamagic feats he or his party members possess.

Trapmonkey/Skillmonkey: Kobold Cloistered Cleric 20, Kobold and Trickery domains, switch to worshiping Vecna and take the feat Whispered Secrets (RoD), obtain a Dagger of Denial (CD) making sure to follow the appropriate rules to avoid betrayal, and be good at rebuking undead on top of everything else.

Primary Offensive Caster: Archivist would be best, but a Gnome Cleric/ Shadowcraft Mage build is definitely a strong choice, using the PHB2 variant on a domain that grants Silent Image. A blastier choice would be to go Wild Elf Cleric (of nature) 6/ Ruathar (RotW) 3/ Seeker of the Misty Isle 1/ Contemplative 10, take the Cold domain with the PHB2 spontaneous conversion variant, Animal domain for Spontaneous Summoner and to get Shapechange, Travel domain from SotMI for all the teleportation spells, probably Time and Luck for the Contemplative domains.

Healer/etc.: Cleric of Pelor 5/ Morninglord of Pelor 10/ Radiant Servant of Pelor 5, taking RSoP asap. Take the Healing domain at 1 with the PHB2 spontaneous conversion variant so that RSoP's free metamagic effects to your healing domain spells apply to all of your spontaneously cast healing domain spells and not just one spell of each level per day. Get a Phylactery of Undead Turning and Scepter of the Netherworld and your DM won't even include undead encounters ever again. Get Augment Healing and you'll be amazing at that too. Just as good as a classic CoDzilla, plus RSoP grants proficiency in all martial weapons.

monty
2008-10-16, 02:01 PM
I don't have access to Serpent Kingdoms. :smallfrown: What are that races abilities?

The only important one is Manipulate Form. If I remember right, it allows you to change one of the target's ability scores, up to yours, or add or remove an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability with NO restrictions listed. This allows you to do some cheesy loop tricks, or just give yourself the I Win ability (you can imagine what that does).

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-16, 02:02 PM
That sounds really overpowered. (I can see why people with that form would make a great party, though).

monty
2008-10-16, 02:05 PM
That sounds really overpowered. (I can see why people with that form would make a great party, though).

What, arbitrarily high stats and any ability you want, including ones you make up on the spot, sounds overpowered to you?

Zenos
2008-10-16, 02:06 PM
I've seen a webcomic where the players break their GM by having 4 dwarven clerics:

"my turn to be tank: divine power"
"my turn to be buffer: Enlarge"
"my turn to be Nuker: Flamestrike"
"i'll buff as well: Bull strength"

result: tons of healing on demand, all can tank, all can buff, all can nuke.

Go team cleric
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0077.html)


What webcomic would that be?

chiasaur11
2008-10-16, 02:08 PM
What webcomic would that be?

This one, oddly enough.

Linked an' everything.

monty
2008-10-16, 02:11 PM
This one, oddly enough.

Linked an' everything.

I only see two dwarven clerics there, not 4.

I think he was referring to the first one.

Laurellien
2008-10-16, 02:14 PM
Archivist (of Io) IX/Sacred Exorcist I/Scion (ultimate prestige classes) X
Abjurer II/Master Specialist III/Abjurant Champion II/IoSV VII/Archmage V/Abjurer I
Artificer XX
Archivist I/Wizard IV/Ur-Priest II/Mystic Theurge XIII


That would steamroller it's way through anything!

Epinephrine
2008-10-16, 02:14 PM
Yeah, I'll support the 4 druid party. Animal Growth starts looking really nice. Or maybe 3 Druids and a War Weaver, who can buff all 3 animal companions and 4 PCs with a move action.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-16, 02:16 PM
He's talking about AGC (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=252). It's a bit rules-heavy, but an awesome comic. Now if only he would update more than once a week...

chiasaur11
2008-10-16, 02:16 PM
I only see two dwarven clerics there, not 4.

I think he was referring to the first one.

Ah.

That makes a good deal more sense. I didn't think the first part was from a comic, though.

monty
2008-10-16, 02:17 PM
Archivist I/Wizard IV/Ur-Priest II/Mystic Theurge XIII

Why Archivist? And you can't get 13 levels of Mystic Theurge pre-epic.
Also, why Roman numerals? That's hard to look at.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-10-16, 02:28 PM
Why Archivist? And you can't get 13 levels of Mystic Theurge pre-epic.
Also, why Roman numerals? That's hard to look at.

His Abjurer 2/ Master Specialist 3/ Abjurant Champion 2/ Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7/ etc. doesn't qualify for any of those prestige classes by the time it takes them, unless he's using some serious 3rd party sploitz that would/should never be allowed in an actual game.

Draz74
2008-10-16, 02:33 PM
Let's see. 4 Druids really isn't optimal. It's intimidating, but it's so ... uniform. Druid, Cleric, Wizard, Beguiler is really much scarier. With appropriate PrCs, of course. Arguably, Archivist or Artificer can sub for one of these.

But personally, I'd prefer to avoid Vancian magic and all its issues, plus put a few more restrictions on myself to keep things interesting. With "no LA races, no multiclassing or PrCs, no Psions, no setting-specific material, nothing obviously broken," and no Vancian magic, I came up with my ideal party that I'm in the process of building. I'd love to play in this party!

Raptoran Warblade
Azurin Ardent
Whisper Gnome Factotum
Human Dragonfire Adept

Jack_Simth
2008-10-16, 04:43 PM
Would Druid really work for that roll without either a variant which grants Trapfinding or until they qualify for the Elemental Reserve Feat at level 7?
Summon Nature's Ally I can cover it. Grab something fast and heavy, charge down the hallway.

The Wizard can handle it - an Unseen Servant can drag a 100 pound bag of rocks, and the Wizard can look on with Detect Magic. 100 pound bag of rocks grabs basically all mechanical traps of note, Detect Magic finds basically all magical traps of note (it misses those that are specifically designed against it, though, and can miss magical traps where the trap itself has a range of 60 feet or better, like some of the Symbol spells).

Mostly, though, low-level traps are HP damage. As a Druid really only needs Wisdom and Constitution, that Constitution tends to be quite high. The Dwarven Druid Detection Device works fairly well.

Curmudgeon
2008-10-16, 05:49 PM
I really hope you're joking by taking that typo seriously :smallconfused: No, I'm not. There's been plenty of time for an erratum to fix this, and WotC has left it alone. With all the effort players put into exploiting things in D&D that are merely ambiguous rather than wrong, I think it's fine to use something that's clearly stated in the rules. Who knows? It might have even been intentional, as a way to distinguish a class that serves as a viable replacement for the weakest of the core set -- the Monk.

Eldariel
2008-10-16, 06:10 PM
Druid
Druid
Wizard
Unseen Seer/any Rogue/Wizard-variant

Incantatrix
Incantatrix
Incantatrix
Incantatrix

Kobold Expert 1
Kobold Expert 1
Kobold Expert 1
Kobold Expert 1

Cleric
Cloistered Cleric
Druid
Druid

Artificer
Archivist
Artificer
Archivist

Ruby Knight Vindicator
Unseen Seer
Archivist Archer
Druid

Artificer
Artificer
Artificer
Artificer


Just a few personal favourites.

EDIT: Without Psionics in the mix. With Psionics, toss few Erudites into the higher powered parties and Psions into the lower-powered ones.

infinitypanda
2008-10-16, 06:44 PM
Best party for an arbitrarily large number of encounters/day?

Bardsader Tank (you only need 1 IC if you keep it going all day)
Dragonfire Adept crowd controller
Dragon Shaman backup healer/tanker/buffer
Factotum13/Chameleon7 skillmonkey damager/caster/whatever

This party is almost completely on a /encounter or unlimited supply of resources, with the Bardsader providing massive buffage and nigh unlimited healing, the DFA providing CC/BC and a little sumplimental damage, the DS augementing the DFA and providing Vigor Aura and a bit of melee support (buffed by the Bardsader), and the Factotum doing what it is that factotums do best....everything.

This party could literally do it all day without having issues. The only thing I could think of that might hinder the party is a lack of the abilty to cure status ailements like ability damage (UMD Factotum?) and whole party flight (again, UMD Factotum?), which could be an issue against something like a dragon or a couple of the larger demons that fly, but in an underground dungeon type scenario that's basically 2D, this party could probably tackle the WLD in a single "day".

What's the exact build for a Bardsader? I think it means Bard X/Crusader (20-X), right?

My ideal team would probably be something like Warblade, Bard, Cleric, Wizard. In a lot of campaigns I've played in, diplomacy is a lot more important than trapfinding, and the Bard can be your backup Warblade, Cleric, or Wizard.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-16, 06:49 PM
What's the exact build for a Bardsader? I think it means Bard X/Crusader (20-X), right?

My ideal team would probably be something like Warblade, Bard, Cleric, Wizard. In a lot of campaigns I've played in, diplomacy is a lot more important than trapfinding, and the Bard can be your backup Warblade, Cleric, or Wizard.Bard (number equal to however many encounters you have each day)/Crusader. Take the Song of the White Raven feat to stack your Bard and Crusader levels for music effects and make IC a Swift Action. If you can, double your Bard levels and go Dragonfire Inspiration, or triple them and go both DfI and SfW.

infinitypanda
2008-10-16, 06:58 PM
Ah, thanks.

Keld Denar
2008-10-16, 09:10 PM
My idea of a Bardsader would probably be a Bard4/Crusader16 in that order if starting above 5, or Crusader1/Bard4/Crusader15 otherwise (its more fun to have maneuvers at the start of the game!). Important feats would be PA, EWP:Spiked Chain, Combat Reflexes, Song of the White Raven, and Standstill. Standstill combined with the Entangling Exhalation of the DFA (who uses the invocation to make his party immune) would be some pretty severe lockdown. With everything in place, the Factotum and Dragon Shaman could whack away, possibly with reach weapons, while the Bardsader keeps the foe in place with a combination of PA, IC, Thicket of Blades, and Standstill.

Swooper
2008-10-16, 10:03 PM
No, I'm not. There's been plenty of time for an erratum to fix this, and WotC has left it alone. With all the effort players put into exploiting things in D&D that are merely ambiguous rather than wrong, I think it's fine to use something that's clearly stated in the rules. Who knows? It might have even been intentional, as a way to distinguish a class that serves as a viable replacement for the weakest of the core set -- the Monk.
I swear I read a Sage Advice or Q&A column or something of that sort that confirms that it's a typo, but after more than twenty minutes of looking through the impossible-to-navigate wizards.com I couldn't find it.

But really. The x4 skill points at 1st level is a fundamental part of the system, a derivative (sp?) of the fact that 1st level characters can have 4 ranks in their class skills. I don't even understand why they bother writing it out for every base class. Why would any one class ever break that rule? :smallconfused: I'm not going to argue the point further (no point in derailing the thread more), unless I find that article/column/whatever, but really... It's an obvious typo.

monty
2008-10-16, 11:54 PM
I swear I read a Sage Advice or Q&A column or something of that sort that confirms that it's a typo, but after more than twenty minutes of looking through the impossible-to-navigate wizards.com I couldn't find it.

That's not RAW, though. Errata are.

FMArthur
2008-10-17, 12:00 AM
Honestly, that's failing to RAI on a very basic level. Like, "death is undefined" level. You know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's a mistake and you know exactly what needs to be corrected.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-17, 01:37 AM
Regarding Druids using Summon Nature's Ally 1 for disarming traps, shouldn't that cause them to fall for disrespecting nature?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-17, 01:44 AM
Regarding Druids using Summon Nature's Ally 1 for disarming traps, shouldn't that cause them to fall for disrespecting nature?The creature is summoned from another plane and is reformed perfectly fine 24 hours later at it's home.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-17, 01:45 AM
Okay. I thought that SNA used normal animals from the material plane, though.

Keld Denar
2008-10-17, 01:48 AM
Summoned creatures come from other planes. Typically a SNA would come from someplace like the Beastlands or Aboria or whatever the nature themed neutral planes are on the great wheel. The creatures existance on the prime is meaningless, and upon its conclusion, the creature is returned from where it came with no harm to it.

Now, on top of that, you could fluff it out a bit that SNA creatures don't actually feel pain. HP are an abstract relation to the strength of the planar bond between the summoned creature and its home plane. Therefore, when it takes damage, it flickers a little, as its being pulled home. When the HP or duration reach zero, the cord that binds it to the Prime is severed, allowing the creature to fully return home. There, no cruelty at all, since the animal doesn't actually feel "pain", just an increasingly potent draw back home.

Plus, if summoning a badger onto a pressure plate causes a druid to fall, shouldn't summoning that same badger in front of a hungry Owlbear to where it get promptly gobbled up in place of the druids friends cause that same druid to fall? Summoning a creature to a near certain death situation is a common thing for druids to do. Extraplanar creatures don't have souls anyways. :smallwink:

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-17, 01:52 AM
That's a good point. I was thinking this could be seen as a reason to fall due to how you're specifically summoning te creature to potentially job to a trap rather then using it to fight creatures who are a threat to nature.

Keld Denar
2008-10-17, 02:13 AM
Well the trap might be in the way of the druid rooting out some great evil beyond it which IS a threat to nature yadda yadda yadda. You should take some engineering courses, and you'll come to find out that EVERYTHING in life is about finding the right frame of reference!

JupiterPaladin
2008-10-17, 02:18 AM
Druid 20 is still almost the most powerful build in the game. Don't try to say splatbooks are responsible for imbalance.

Just because there is something broken in core does not mean that splatbooks didn't add to the problem as well. Look at stuff like Incantatrix, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, and Planar Shepard. All from splatbooks, and all just as offensive if not more. Yes, splatbooks helped the imbalance. Yes core has broken stuff, and no that does not justify more broken garbage in other books. It was done knowingly to sell books. The had plenty of ability to make balanced content, like the Warlock and the Scout. So I didn't try to say it, I said it.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-17, 02:19 AM
I'm not really into mechanics to be honest. I was just thinking how nature would see using Summoned creatures like that.

Temp.
2008-10-17, 02:27 AM
The had plenty of ability to make balanced content, like the Warlock and the Scout.Balance is subjective. The Iot7V, Incantor, and Planar Shepherd are all very well balanced when weaker classes are removed from the picture.

The Warlock, Scout and Spellthief are all very well balanced when stronger and weaker classes are removed from the picture.

The Monk, Samurai and Truenamer are all very well balanced when stronger classes are removed from the picture.


WotC can't reasonably be expected to generate everything on the same power level. Players can be expected to recognize imbalance and compensate.

Also, you seem to be giving WotC a lot of credit. I doubt they realized the power difference between Seeker of the Song and Sublime Chord at the time of printing.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-17, 02:27 AM
Just because there is something broken in core does not mean that splatbooks didn't add to the problem as well. Look at stuff like Incantatrix, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, and Planar Shepard. All from splatbooks, and all just as offensive if not more. Yes, splatbooks helped the imbalance. Yes core has broken stuff, and no that does not justify more broken garbage in other books. It was done knowingly to sell books. The had plenty of ability to make balanced content, like the Warlock and the Scout. So I didn't try to say it, I said it.No, I just get upset whenever people blame Splats for imbalance, or won't allow ToB or Psionics because they're 'OP'. Incantrix, Iot7V, and PS are all horrid, but beyond those, I don't think most PrCs are that bad. The fault lies in Core, when it set the baseline by not giving any features beyond casting after 1st level. PrCs that didn't advance casting 5/5 were pretty much ignored, so they had to make them advance casting as well as do something else so people would take them. If spells were weaker and casters had benefits beyond "Casting+1" for their base class, it would be more balanced, and people wouldn't take nearly as many PrCs.

Superglucose
2008-10-17, 02:30 AM
Depends on what you want the party to do. Druid/Cleric(with DMM cheese)/Foc Spec Transmuter(banning Evoc/Enchant/Abjur)Wizard/Dark Whisper Gnome Beguiler(Mindbender/Shadowcraft) is the best from a pure power standpoint, IMHO, but any of that is replacable with similar ones from the big 5. Otherwise, just go with whats fun. Remember, the Hobbit was 13 Dwarven Fighters and a Halfling Thief. :smallwink:

Actually, it was 12 dwarven Warriors, a dwarven Aristocrat, and a Halfling aristocrat.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-17, 02:32 AM
Actually, it was 13 dwarven Warriors and a Halfling aristocrat.Halflings are one step above Kender; it's the same thing.

JupiterPaladin
2008-10-17, 02:40 AM
Well let's be fair then, from one old-schooler to another (15 years+ starting in AD&D). I never said core wasn't broken, but some of those things in the splatbooks were worse in my examples, and some just as bad as the core offenders. As far as the other things, I do allow Psionics and ToB in my games. My only complaint with ToB is not the anime argument or anything crappy like that at all... it's that content should have been released as additions to the Fighter, Monk, and Paladin instead of making "martial adepts" as whole new classes. If a Fighter isn't a martial adept, who is? That part just never made sense to me, but completely not the point. I like what ToB tried to accomplish for melee classes in general.

Kurald Galain
2008-10-17, 02:51 AM
That's a good point. I was thinking this could be seen as a reason to fall due to how you're specifically summoning te creature to potentially job to a trap rather then using it to fight creatures who are a threat to nature.

I believe that it could. Summoning a creature to a place where it's expected to fight is one thing; summoning a creature to where you expect it to die is quite another.

And yes, you can rationalize away everything, just like :miko: could. That doesn't mean your deity will agree with your analysis. The end does not justify the means to everybody.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-17, 03:23 AM
I believe that it could. Summoning a creature to a place where it's expected to fight is one thing; summoning a creature to where you expect it to die is quite another.

And yes, you can rationalize away everything, just like :miko: could. That doesn't mean your deity will agree with your analysis. The end does not justify the means to everybody.The thing is, would you count it as fall-worthy if you summon it against an opponent who will kill it easily? Summon 1d4+1 Wolves to swarm the enemy and keep him occupied with trips while the Druid and his friends beat a retreat? Those wolves are meat in 2 rounds, maybe 3. At least the trapmonkey has a shot the hallway is safe.

TheThan
2008-10-17, 10:36 AM
Well let's be fair then, from one old-schooler to another (15 years+ starting in AD&D). I never said core wasn't broken, but some of those things in the splatbooks were worse in my examples, and some just as bad as the core offenders. As far as the other things, I do allow Psionics and ToB in my games. My only complaint with ToB is not the anime argument or anything crappy like that at all... it's that content should have been released as additions to the Fighter, Monk, and Paladin instead of making "martial adepts" as whole new classes. If a Fighter isn't a martial adept, who is? That part just never made sense to me, but completely not the point. I like what ToB tried to accomplish for melee classes in general.

I agree,


Anyway, someone on the first page said it in greater detail.

The classic 4-5 character party build: fighter type, rogue type, wizard type, cleric type, and bard type pretty much covers all of your bases. Regardless of which classes you use to fill those roles. Deviating away from this leads to party imbalance, which may or may not work out well, depending on the classes involved, the skill of the player and the style of campaign your running.

EvilElitest
2008-10-17, 07:46 PM
wait are you talking in terms of race/class combo or people i'd like to play with?
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