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Mushroom Ninja
2008-10-16, 05:03 PM
Disclaimer: Many catgirls have died to bring us this information...

For a while now, I have been troubled by an interesting question. This question is "If a character is moving very fast and runs into something, will any damage be dealt?" For a while I pondered this. Then I realized that if I were to calculate the character's velocity at impact time, and compare that to the instantaneous velocity at time of impact for something falling, by the rules section, "Damage from Falling Objects", I could determine how much damage would be dealt.

Here's the math:

Let's assume that my character, a wizard, weighed 200 pounds (with equipment).

He gets on his phantom steed (240 ft movement) and uses the run option (4x movement) to run into a dragon. His velocity on impact is 160 ft/sec.

240 ft movement x 4 (run modifier) = 960 ft
because this movement is moved over a course of a round, we divide this by 6 to get 160 ft/sec.

Now, to calculate the height that an item impacting ground at this velocity would have to be at, we're going to need to use some calculus. :smallbiggrin:

The position of falling objects formula is height = -16(time)^2 + (initial height). To find the velocity of a falling object at any given point, we're going to have to take the 1st derivative of that equation and get velocity = -32(time).

Now, we're trying to find the height of something that, when hitting the ground, has a velocity of 160 ft/sec. Because velocity is directional, I'm going to turn that into -160ft/sec so we don't come up with a negative time. This isn't necessary, but I'm going to do it anyway because I like positive numbers.

Okay, so we need to plug -160 ft/sec into the instantaneous velocity formula. This gives us (-160) = -32(time). With just a little simple algebra, we get (time) = 5.

From here, we just need to plug this value back into the position function, using 0 as the final height:

0= -16(5)^2 + (initial height)

By a little more algebra, we get the initial height to equal 400 feet!

This means that velocity of my wizard when he runs into the dragon is equal to the velocity of an object when it hits the ground after a 400 foot fall.

So, by the rules found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#tableDamagefromFallingObjects), we see that my 200 lb wizard is doing about 20d6 damage. Nifty! :smallbiggrin:

The one problem is, of course, due to those silly laws of physics, my wizard would also take 20d6 damage.:smallfrown:

Just thought others might want to know...

P.S.: If I've got my math wrong, please tell me so.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-16, 05:34 PM
Awesome level 12 touch attack. Especially with a Familiar or Follower who you can have ride the mount instead of you. :smallbiggrin:

Mushroom Ninja
2008-10-16, 05:38 PM
Now that's progressive!

Pie Guy
2008-10-16, 05:45 PM
Or you could get the meatshie- I mean fighter, to do it.

Iku Rex
2008-10-16, 05:51 PM
http://i35.tinypic.com/vs068m.jpg

Lord Herman
2008-10-16, 05:53 PM
:smallbiggrin:

My calculations of running into people on foot:

In 3.5:

(30ft) * (4) / (6 seconds) = 20 ft per second
20ft/s / 32ft/s2 = 0.625 seconds
16ft/s2 * (0.625 seconds)^2 = 6.25 feet

In 4E:

(40ft) * (2) / (6 seconds) = 13 1/3 ft per second
13 1/3ft/s / 32ft/s2 = 0.416 seconds
16ft/s2 * (0.416 seconds)^2 = 2.77 feet

No damage in either case :smallfrown:

Yehomer
2008-10-16, 05:56 PM
Actually, the 20d6 max falling damage is because of the top falling speed of an object. Since you don't have that problem while riding a mount, you should take the full 40d6 damamge :X

sleepy
2008-10-16, 06:20 PM
You could get technical here and say since your Run option can begin and end at a complete stop, your distance over time for the round is averaging your speed which peaked at twice 160m/s, so your top burst speed is 320m/s for... what, 80d6?

Of course, your DM will rule, correctly and fairly, that accelerating to mach 1 in 3 seconds is the equivilent of jumping in front of a mac truck as far as your neck and innards are concerned.


(edit: this speed actually breaches the sound barrier at around -18c/0F and below. Travel to frostfel and make sonic booms with your phantom steed today!)

Lord Herman
2008-10-16, 06:21 PM
We'll need to ascertain how much momentum equates to how much damage, assuming a non-pointy, humanoid object.

The terminal velocity of the average adventurer is:

sqrt(2mg/ρACd)

m = mass = about 140 kg, assuming full gear and armour on a well-muscled male
g = gravitational acceleration = 9.8 m/s2
ρ = air density = 1.204 kg/m3
A = projected area = about 1.5 m2, considering size of gear and armour, assuming adventurer isn't assuming a streamlined position
Cd = drag coefficient = 1.5, slightly above the average for a person, accounting for gear that sticks out

That makes:

sqrt(2 * 140 * 9.8 / 1.204 * 1.5 * 1.5) = 32.8 m/s

With the assumed mass of the adventurer, the momentum is:

32.8 m/s * 140 kg = 4456 Ns

This amount of momentum equals 20d6 falling damage. That means one die of damage equals 223 Ns of momentum.

Now, an adventurer, running into someone at full speed, has a momentum of:

140 kg * 30 ft * 0.3 m/ft * 4 / 6 seconds = 840 Ns

840 Ns / 223 Ns/d6 = 3.8d6 damage

...well, it's more damage than I got in my last post.

Pie Guy
2008-10-16, 07:15 PM
840 Ns / 223 Ns/d6 = 3.8d6 damage


Someone pass the d5

FMArthur
2008-10-16, 08:08 PM
But what are the applications for stylish Power Attacks? Do we add this if we're hitting them with a weapon? Does the weapon hit, and then this thing resolves after? It is imperative that this be applied to squeeze every last bit of awesome out of certain attacks.

Pie Guy
2008-10-16, 09:10 PM
Also, use a spear and charge.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-10-16, 09:45 PM
Also, use a spear and charge.

hmm, how do we incorporate pointy things attatched to the adventurer into the damage?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-16, 09:49 PM
hmm, how do we incorporate pointy things attatched to the adventurer into the damage?Armor Spikes, including Spiked Barding for the mount. You don't want to add an attack roll to this.

bosssmiley
2008-10-17, 03:26 AM
Disclaimer: Many catgirls have died to bring us this information...

For a while now, I have been troubled by an interesting question. This question is "If a character is moving very fast and runs into something, will any damage be dealt?"

Only if you have the powerful charge ability, or if you bull rush someone into a wall, or if the spell description says so. :smallwink:

As a quick DM call, I'd say that running into a wall does 1d4 nonlethal damage and leaves you dazed for a few rounds. Not something you want to make a habit of in high-risk environments then. :smallamused:

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-17, 03:33 AM
Only if you have the powerful charge ability, or if you bull rush someone into a wall, or if the spell description says so. :smallwink:

As a quick DM call, I'd say that running into a wall does 1d4 nonlethal damage and leaves you dazed for a few rounds. Not something you want to make a habit of in high-risk environments then. :smallamused:He's not running into a wall. He's summoning a magic horse and having it run into a wall. The horse has a move of 240, so it can run at 109.1 miles/hour. You can't tell me that won't hurt.

Ravens_cry
2008-10-17, 03:37 AM
http://i35.tinypic.com/vs068m.jpg
Yeah, this whole thread should keep the vermin at bay.
Death to Cat Girls!:smalltongue:

bosssmiley
2008-10-17, 03:51 AM
He's not running into a wall. He's summoning a magic horse and having it run into a wall. The horse has a move of 240, so it can run at 109.1 miles/hour. You can't tell me that won't hurt.

110mph horse? :smallconfused:

I think that's massive damage territory then. Say, 1d6 damage/10mph. Ref save to dodge.

Ravens_cry
2008-10-17, 04:00 AM
Of course, since this is Heroic Fantasy, he could just jump off the horse and roll, that always works in the movies.

jcsw
2008-10-17, 07:19 AM
Okay. Now to optimize the build!

Assuming terminal velocity is negligible here. (Much more so than when falling at least...)

First lets get the multiplier as high as possible.
Base Run: x4
Run Feat gives you x5
Travel Devotion lets you move once as a swift action: x6.

Now to reach as much speed as you possibly can.
Class: Cleric
Lets use Footsteps of the Divine, a spell from complete champion. If you're a cleric of Fharlanghn, (which is a god who *would* support such tactics, and also grants travel devotion...) you get +50ft movespeed...

However, you can end the spell at the end of the turn to gain (Rounds Remaining)x10ft bonus speed, in addition to the +50, this turn.

At CL 12, the same CL as you use to gain 240 movement with a phantom steed, this is a total of 110+50 speed. This is boring... so instead...

DMM persist. 14400 round duration means a total speed of 30(Base)+50(Base Bonus)+144000 feet = 144080 ft base speed.

x6 modifier, divided by 6 seconds... so 144080ft/second. I hate imperial, so 43916 m/s

Using the calculations... v=at. Where a is 10kg/N... t=4392s
s=(0.5)(10)(4392)^2=96448320meters=312737743ft
Which means approximately 3,000,000d6 damage.

Lord Herman
2008-10-17, 07:39 AM
Now all we have to do is prevent the character from taking that same amount of damage. Are there any ways to prevent all damage for one round?

The Glyphstone
2008-10-17, 07:43 AM
There's Timeless Body.

Xallace
2008-10-17, 07:52 AM
Now all we have to do is prevent the character from taking that same amount of damage. Are there any ways to prevent all damage for one round?

Yeah, there's a feat that lets barbarians do it in PHBII. You could also get someone to cast Surelife on you keyed to this specific situation (though that wouldn't stop the damage, just stop it from killing you).

Telonius
2008-10-17, 08:05 AM
Now all we have to do is prevent the character from taking that same amount of damage. Are there any ways to prevent all damage for one round?

That was my thought as well. The rules never say how much damage the ground takes when the falling person hits it... do they?

Duke of URL
2008-10-17, 08:10 AM
Someone pass the d5

Sorry... in D&D, we round down. :smallbiggrin:

Epinephrine
2008-10-17, 08:26 AM
The stance Immortal Fortitude could let you survive the collision, but it wouldn't prevent all the damage, just enough to keep you conscious.

That said, a 70kg person's impact isn't even equivalent to a kiltoton of TNT, even at 130 times the speed of sound. 68 billion Joules is only about 1.6% of a kiloton.

First, you want to be bigger (more massive), so you want to change into a really dense/big form (sure, mass is only linear, but it's still important). Some combination of Enlarge and Iron Body, or a polymorph into some large-sized dense creature could boost mass by a factor of 80 or so (x8 for enlarge, x10 for Iron Body). That puts the energy up over a kiloton.

You need some way to move a bit faster - perhaps a few times that speed. The speed boost sounds like it is only lasting one round, else one could use a Swiftblade's power. A 10th level Swiftblade could subsume a 9th level version of the Haste spell, getting 4 rounds of extra actions as a result. Provided one could cast the subsumed haste as a quick action (using a very pricy rod of metamagic?) one could get 5 full round actions (4 of them with swift actions too). If one had the ability to move at that insane rate in each of those rounds, you could nearly quintuple your speed, boosting energy by a factor of 25? That'd be more energy than Fat Man released. Of course, you've got to be able to get the insane speed on each of those rounds, which would require casting and releasing a copy of Footsteps of the Divine each round, as a swift action? It's sounding epic, but that's a lot of possible speed.

jcsw
2008-10-17, 08:35 AM
Surelife (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/spells/surelife.htm)

Just pick: Deadly Collisions

Alternatively, buy/craft a contingent revivify.

As for additionally multiplying the number... belt of battle. Spend three charges for another Run action. (If you use this you can't use Travel Devotion, since activating is a swift action...)

koldstare
2008-10-17, 08:37 AM
IIRC falling damage is classifed as bludgeoning, and since lich are immune to bludgeoning damage...

Animefunkmaster
2008-10-17, 08:43 AM
Movement in dnd isn't always constant, I think it is assumed you are not just running into someone (that's what slam attacks are for). Theoretically, I can see this being used for a trap or something that interrupts a charge/run, but running into an enemy as a form of offense is a tad bit silly.

With that I present the Commoner Hireling Bucket Brigade Chicken Death Star.
PC: Anyone that can organize large groups of individuals. (Thrallherd works well when available).

Ingredients:
-Hirelings untrained (1sp per 5feet essentially, worried about dropping the item, go with two hirelings per 5ft)
-1 chicken infested commoner (ammunition)
-Line them up shoulder to shoulder. Organize them so that they all ready an action to hand a chicken from the person on there right to the person on there left. Last person uses a free action to drop the item. The velocity of that chicken is only limited by the number of hirelings purchased.
-Fabricate some kind of intricate device to aim your chain gang of hirelings.
-???
-Profit

Alternatively The original man powered lightning rail consisted of miles and miles of hirelings who would ready an action to pass an object from one person to another. Those objects happened to be connected to a small car for passengers. These cars would quickly travel around eberron at nearly light speed. Then the hirelings went on strike and the wizard in HR got fed up and fired them all, deciding that magic will solve all his problems (yet for some reason, never learned dominate or charm person)

Suzuro
2008-10-17, 08:45 AM
Just make sure you have a scarab of invulnerability, and you can...pretty much kill anything....ever...


-Suzuro

Eorran
2008-10-17, 08:47 AM
If you can get a character to move more than 40 km/s, you don't need to run into anything. Just run past. As long as they're not immune to sonic damage, the shock wave should disrupt them pretty thoroughly, and at that speed, you would light the air on fire like a meteor. I don't know the physics well enough to calculate, but air resistance is a cubic function of velocity, so your speed creates drag, aka friction. Since by RAW, air resistance doesn't slow you down, all that friction is turned into heat.
Better get fire resistance on your armor.
So, it would do moderate sonic damage, and pretty serious fire damage.

DracoDei
2008-10-17, 08:47 AM
I have wondered about this myself... walls of force are supposed to be invisible last I checked...

Lord Herman
2008-10-17, 09:12 AM
Drag:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/7/2/d/72d686af4bdf6ffdff7928e3a20cb4b5.png

(-)1/2 * 1.204 * v2 * 1.5 * 1.5

Fd = 1.3545 * v2


Kinetic energy:
Ek = Fd * t = -1.3545 * v2 * 6 = 8.127 * v2


I'm afraid I don't know enough about thermodynamics to convert energy into temperature. Is there a physicist in the room?

Roderick_BR
2008-10-17, 09:36 AM
The one problem is, of course, due to those silly laws of physics, my wizard would also take 20d6 damage.:smallfrown:

Cast stoneskin on the barbarian, and hope he rolls poorly on the damage on himself :p Regeneration and/or fast healing are also good.
What are the calculations if you do it with a barbarian goliath?

And the obligatory joke:
"A human, an elf, and a dwarf walked into a bar. The human and the elf said "ouch". The dwarf walked under it."

@koldstare: Isen't it the opposite? Lichs aren't vulnerable *exactly* against bludgeoning?

Ethdred
2008-10-17, 09:36 AM
but running into an enemy as a form of offense is a tad bit silly.


No, really? I thought we were working out a perfectly serious, if tricky, new form of attack.

Smeggedoff
2008-10-17, 09:56 AM
Are we gonna need the splash damage rules for this?

Lord Herman
2008-10-17, 10:22 AM
Hmm... how about using running adventurers as siege weapons?

...how fast would you need to go to run straight through a city wall?

You'd be looking at a gargantuan object (200 base HP), made of stone (x2 HP), and it probably counts as reinforced (x1.5). That's 600 hit points, going by 4E rules.

3.5 rules would make it a 15-foot (180-inch) thick stone object. Stone has 15 HP per inch, so the wall would have 2700 hit points and hardness 8.

My calculations would indicate that, going by 3.5 rules, a running adventurer deals an average of 10.5 damage when he runs into something. He deals half damage, since it's an object. Less the hardness, that's under 0 damage. Which means running adventurers won't even scratch a city wall.

...at least, if you only consider average damage. But the adventurer will deal 18 damage 1 out of 216 times. Divided by two and substracting hardness, that deals exactly 1 point of damage.

Ergo...

An adventurer has to run into the city wall 583200 times to break it down. Assuming it takes him one round to get up and get back in position, it will take one adventurer 81 days of non-stop bashing to make a hole in the wall.

Luckily, there's no need to use actual adventurers for this; random peasants work just as well, except that an adventurer in full gear is heavier. So if we make every peasant carry a pig, he and the pig should weigh just about the same as an adventurer.

Using human (and pig) wave tactics, those walls will take less than a day to bash down.


Who needs trebuchets when you can use hordes of pig-wielding peasants?

Swooper
2008-10-17, 10:45 AM
This thread is pure gold. If SwordGuy hadn't destroyed it with anti-osmium some months ago, I'd award you an internet for this idea. :smallbiggrin:

Mushroom Ninja
2008-10-17, 10:47 AM
Hmm... how about using running adventurers as siege weapons?

...how fast would you need to go to run straight through a city wall?

You'd be looking at a gargantuan object (200 base HP), made of stone (x2 HP), and it probably counts as reinforced (x1.5). That's 600 hit points, going by 4E rules.

3.5 rules would make it a 15-foot (180-inch) thick stone object. Stone has 15 HP per inch, so the wall would have 2700 hit points and hardness 8.

My calculations would indicate that, going by 3.5 rules, a running adventurer deals an average of 10.5 damage when he runs into something. He deals half damage, since it's an object. Less the hardness, that's under 0 damage. Which means running adventurers won't even scratch a city wall.

...at least, if you only consider average damage. But the adventurer will deal 18 damage 1 out of 216 times. Divided by two and substracting hardness, that deals exactly 1 point of damage.

Ergo...

An adventurer has to run into the city wall 583200 times to break it down. Assuming it takes him one round to get up and get back in position, it will take one adventurer 81 days of non-stop bashing to make a hole in the wall.

Luckily, there's no need to use actual adventurers for this; random peasants work just as well, except that an adventurer in full gear is heavier. So if we make every peasant carry a pig, he and the pig should weigh just about the same as an adventurer.

Using human (and pig) wave tactics, those walls will take less than a day to bash down.


Who needs trebuchets when you can use hordes of pig-wielding peasants?

Hmmm... then if we've got the minions riding on phantom steeds at 160 ft/sec average, how quick do we knock down the wall?

Lord Herman
2008-10-17, 10:56 AM
140 kg * 160 ft/s * 0.3 m/ft / 223 Ns/d6 = 30d6

That's 105 damage on average. Adjusted for hardness and half damage to objects, that's still 44.5 damage.

2700 HP / 44.5 HP/round = 61 rounds = 6 minutes

And now that I come to think of it, we don't even have to include extra rounds for the peasants to get up and walk back - the impact will instantly kill all but one out of 864 peasants.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-10-17, 10:58 AM
And now that I come to think of it, we don't even have to include extra rounds for the peasants to get up and walk back - the impact will instantly kill all but one out of 864 peasants.

Excellent! This way only one of them can collect the paycheck!:smallbiggrin:

Lord Herman
2008-10-17, 11:02 AM
Of course, bashing down the walls with running peasants with pigs will cost the lives of 582,525 peasants (and pigs), assuming we let the 675 survivors go.

This is all assuming the city's defenders won't do anything to stop the peasants (and the pigs).

Moriato
2008-10-17, 11:05 AM
IIRC falling damage is classifed as bludgeoning, and since lich are immune to bludgeoning damage...

Not true


Damage Reduction (Su)
A lich’s undead body is tough, giving the creature damage reduction 15/bludgeoning and magic. Its natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Magic bludgeoning weapons *negate* a lich's damage reduction, they're far from immune to it. Even if it's just bludgeoning that's still only 15 points worth, which is substatial, but they'd still take most of the damage.

Ethdred
2008-10-17, 11:05 AM
Using human (and pig) wave tactics, those walls will take less than a day to bash down.


Who needs trebuchets when you can use hordes of pig-wielding peasants?

OK, you definitely win an entire Internet's-worth of cookies (or an entire cookie's-worth of Internets, your choice). I thought this thread was good to start with, but peasant-pig warfare just takes it to an entire new level.

However, is this method more efficient than a peasant railgun throwing pigs at the wall?

Edit: my spelling/typing has really gone to pot today....

Lord Herman
2008-10-17, 11:08 AM
However, is this method more efficient than a peasant railgun throwing pigs at the wall?

It's not. Using enough peasants to accelerate it, a single pig can demolish the wall, the city, and everyone in it.

Then again, my method isn't really about maximizing efficiency as much as maximizing casualties.


Edit: Here's the mini that made me think of the pigs:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dod_gallery/Farmer.jpg

Roderick_BR
2008-10-17, 01:20 PM
However, is this method more efficient than a peasant railgun throwing pigs at the wall?


I'm still not convinced that the peasant railgun really works. The exact instant the last peasant picks up the stick (or pig bomb in this case), the projectly instantly loses all it's momentum, and is thrown as a normal object. Unless we actually apply the maths used in this very thread, of course. Then it's doable.

Hmm.. silly question: What if we get a legendary dreadnought? It's an epic PrC that pretty much becomes Marvel's Juggernaut. Can he destroy a city by himself?

Epinephrine
2008-10-17, 01:24 PM
I'm still not convinced that the peasant railgun really works. The exact instant the last peasant picks up the stick (or pig bomb in this case), the projectly instantly loses all it's momentum, and is thrown as a normal object. Unless we actually apply the maths used in this very thread, of course. Then it's doable.

Hmm.. silly question: What if we get a legendary dreadnought? It's an epic PrC that pretty much becomes Marvel's Juggernaut. Can he destroy a city by himself?

Well, we can do turn-based stuff I suppose. The peasant railgun simply places the pig by the wall. On the pig's turn, the deceleration from thousands of times the speed of sound kicks in, and the pig also deals radiant heat damage based on its current temperature (achieved from friction/deceleration). Wall melts (vaporizes) as does pig, and all nearby peasants.

EvilElitest
2008-10-17, 03:14 PM
Disclaimer: Many catgirls have died to bring us this information...

For a while now, I have been troubled by an interesting question. This question is "If a character is moving very fast and runs into something, will any damage be dealt?" For a while I pondered this. Then I realized that if I were to calculate the character's velocity at impact time, and compare that to the instantaneous velocity at time of impact for something falling, by the rules section, "Damage from Falling Objects", I could determine how much damage would be dealt.

Here's the math:

Let's assume that my character, a wizard, weighed 200 pounds (with equipment).

He gets on his phantom steed (240 ft movement) and uses the run option (4x movement) to run into a dragon. His velocity on impact is 160 ft/sec.

240 ft movement x 4 (run modifier) = 960 ft
because this movement is moved over a course of a round, we divide this by 6 to get 160 ft/sec.

Now, to calculate the height that an item impacting ground at this velocity would have to be at, we're going to need to use some calculus. :smallbiggrin:

The position of falling objects formula is height = -16(time)^2 + (initial height). To find the velocity of a falling object at any given point, we're going to have to take the 1st derivative of that equation and get velocity = -32(time).

Now, we're trying to find the height of something that, when hitting the ground, has a velocity of 160 ft/sec. Because velocity is directional, I'm going to turn that into -160ft/sec so we don't come up with a negative time. This isn't necessary, but I'm going to do it anyway because I like positive numbers.

Okay, so we need to plug -160 ft/sec into the instantaneous velocity formula. This gives us (-160) = -32(time). With just a little simple algebra, we get (time) = 5.

From here, we just need to plug this value back into the position function, using 0 as the final height:

0= -16(5)^2 + (initial height)

By a little more algebra, we get the initial height to equal 400 feet!

This means that velocity of my wizard when he runs into the dragon is equal to the velocity of an object when it hits the ground after a 400 foot fall.

So, by the rules found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#tableDamagefromFallingObjects), we see that my 200 lb wizard is doing about 20d6 damage. Nifty! :smallbiggrin:

The one problem is, of course, due to those silly laws of physics, my wizard would also take 20d6 damage.:smallfrown:

Just thought others might want to know...

P.S.: If I've got my math wrong, please tell me so.

Can you explain that again for people who aren't good at math please?
from
EE

Fostire
2008-10-17, 05:51 PM
Hmm... how about using running adventurers as siege weapons?

...how fast would you need to go to run straight through a city wall?

You'd be looking at a gargantuan object (200 base HP), made of stone (x2 HP), and it probably counts as reinforced (x1.5). That's 600 hit points, going by 4E rules.

3.5 rules would make it a 15-foot (180-inch) thick stone object. Stone has 15 HP per inch, so the wall would have 2700 hit points and hardness 8.

My calculations would indicate that, going by 3.5 rules, a running adventurer deals an average of 10.5 damage when he runs into something. He deals half damage, since it's an object. Less the hardness, that's under 0 damage. Which means running adventurers won't even scratch a city wall.

...at least, if you only consider average damage. But the adventurer will deal 18 damage 1 out of 216 times. Divided by two and substracting hardness, that deals exactly 1 point of damage.

Ergo...

An adventurer has to run into the city wall 583200 times to break it down. Assuming it takes him one round to get up and get back in position, it will take one adventurer 81 days of non-stop bashing to make a hole in the wall.

Luckily, there's no need to use actual adventurers for this; random peasants work just as well, except that an adventurer in full gear is heavier. So if we make every peasant carry a pig, he and the pig should weigh just about the same as an adventurer.

Using human (and pig) wave tactics, those walls will take less than a day to bash down.


Who needs trebuchets when you can use hordes of pig-wielding peasants?

Did you know that on one of the dragon magazines there is a flaw for commoners that makes them carry a pig? The flaw makes it so that they can never drop the pig or else I think they die. So just get a bunch of commoners with this flaw.

Lord Herman
2008-10-18, 12:52 PM
Did you know that on one of the dragon magazines there is a flaw for commoners that makes them carry a pig? The flaw makes it so that they can never drop the pig or else I think they die. So just get a bunch of commoners with this flaw.

:smallbiggrin:

I did get that mini from a Dragon (or possibly Dungeon) article about some adventure one of the Wizards guys ran, where the PCs found themselves in a town where everyone carried a pig under their arm. Somehow, it was very creepy.

Ascension
2008-10-18, 01:05 PM
Okay. Now to optimize the build!

Assuming terminal velocity is negligible here. (Much more so than when falling at least...)

First lets get the multiplier as high as possible.
Base Run: x4
Run Feat gives you x5
Travel Devotion lets you move once as a swift action: x6.

Now to reach as much speed as you possibly can.
Class: Cleric
Lets use Footsteps of the Divine, a spell from complete champion. If you're a cleric of Fharlanghn, (which is a god who *would* support such tactics, and also grants travel devotion...) you get +50ft movespeed...

However, you can end the spell at the end of the turn to gain (Rounds Remaining)x10ft bonus speed, in addition to the +50, this turn.

At CL 12, the same CL as you use to gain 240 movement with a phantom steed, this is a total of 110+50 speed. This is boring... so instead...

DMM persist. 14400 round duration means a total speed of 30(Base)+50(Base Bonus)+144000 feet = 144080 ft base speed.

x6 modifier, divided by 6 seconds... so 144080ft/second. I hate imperial, so 43916 m/s

Using the calculations... v=at. Where a is 10kg/N... t=4392s
s=(0.5)(10)(4392)^2=96448320meters=312737743ft
Which means approximately 3,000,000d6 damage.

What's the race with the best base move for its LA? I'm pretty sure we can make this even better...

Fostire
2008-10-18, 01:40 PM
what about time stop? you get 1d4+1 rounds that happen in 1 standard action

Mushroom Ninja
2008-10-18, 06:24 PM
Can you explain that again for people who aren't good at math please?
from
EE

Alright, I'll try.

The D&D rules state here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#tableDamagefromFallingObjects) what the damage for being squished by an object of a certain weight falling from a certain height is.

Now, we know the velocity of a wizard riding on a phantom steed is 160 ft/sec. To find out the damage the wizard does by ramming something, we have to find out how far an object would have fallen to have a velocity of 160 ft/sec (or -160 ft/sec, direction doesn't matter).

To do this we've got to use the position function: (current height of object) = (initial height of object) - 16(time in seconds)^2

Now, as you may have noticed, this equation in its current form will not help us because we are planning to plug in the velocity (our known variable). So, we're going to have to convert this formula into the velocity function.

To do this, we must take the derivative of the position function. This gives us: (velocity of object) = -32(time in seconds).

So now, we have to plug in the velocity, which we know is 160 (or -160).

And so, with a little algebra:
-160 = -32(time in seconds)
5 = (time in seconds)

We find that, for a falling object to have a velocity of 160 ft/sec, the object must have been falling for 5 seconds.

Now we have to solve for the initial height of an object that, after 5 seconds of freefall hits the ground. So, we just need to plug the 5 seconds back into the position function.

A bit of algebra:
(current height of object) = (initial height of object) - 16(time in seconds)^2
0 = (initial height of the object) - 16(5)
0 = (initial height of the object) -400
400 = (initial height of the object)

And here we have it. A wizard traveling at 160 ft/sec is traveling at the same velocity as an object that has fallen for 400 feet.

To find the damage the wizard does when he runs into something, we simply need to look at this information in relation to the falling objects damage table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#tableDamagefromFallingObjects) and we find that the damage.

I hope that this has helped.:smallsmile:

Roderick_BR
2008-10-18, 06:34 PM
Well, we can do turn-based stuff I suppose. The peasant railgun simply places the pig by the wall. On the pig's turn, the deceleration from thousands of times the speed of sound kicks in, and the pig also deals radiant heat damage based on its current temperature (achieved from friction/deceleration). Wall melts (vaporizes) as does pig, and all nearby peasants.
Peasant A-Bomb?

Mushroom Ninja
2008-10-18, 06:43 PM
What if we were to have two huge peasant railguns facing off, and the last peasant in each line threw the pigs at each other? Couldn't we get them up to speeds where they would have similar effects to CERN's Large Hadron Colliders?

Smeggedoff
2008-10-18, 07:01 PM
Large Pig Collider?
meh, I prefer Pig-Mo-Tron or the like.

or taking a line from FF7
The Pig-ster Ray!

Mushroom Ninja
2008-10-18, 08:22 PM
Large Pig Collider?
meh, I prefer Pig-Mo-Tron or the like.


I'm not sure we'd be able to use large pigs. They'd probably require a strength check to lift. :smallbiggrin:

I guess that, instead of the higgs particle, we'd have to search for the pigs particle.

Starbuck_II
2008-10-18, 08:44 PM
Large Pig Collider?
meh, I prefer Pig-Mo-Tron or the like.

or taking a line from FF7
The Pig-ster Ray!

Whoa, that is crazy talk. Colliders are made for squirrels and bunnies.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-10-18, 09:37 PM
Whoa, that is crazy talk. Colliders are made for squirrels and bunnies.

But there are no Piggs particles in bunnies...

Lord Herman
2008-10-19, 03:48 AM
Hmm... peasant-and-pig powered death star?

Could a peasant rail gun (one that fits in the death star) be used to destroy a planet?

Edit: Math to the rescue!

The first death star was 160,000 meters in diameter. That's 524,934 feet. Divided by 5, that gives us the maximum number of peasants we can fit in a straight line: 104,986. The number of peasants isn't important to the calculation, but it's nice to know how many peasants the empire must draft for this job.

Alright, so we have a pig. We'll take a small one, so the peasants won't drop it - say, 50 kg, which seems to be about the minimum weight of an adult pig.

Now to find out the speed of the pig. It moves 160,000 meters in 6 seconds; that's 26,666 meters per second. But that's the average speed, and we need to know the pig's speed when it leaves the Death Star. That's twice the average speed, or 53,333 m/s.

Now we know the pig's speed and the pig's mass, we can calculate its kinetic energy, which is:

Ek = 1/2 m v2 = 1/2 * 50 kg * (53,333 m/s)2 = 71,110,222,225 J

That's quite a lot, but is it enough to destroy a planet?

Let's take a planet we're familiar with - Earth. Its mass is 5.9736 * 1024 kg. That's quite a lot.

According to the all-knowing wikipedia, we need to exceed the planet's gravitational binding energy to break it apart.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/1/8/4/184e59437933fb584cf793840bd5c9b5.png

U = The energy we need to blow up the planet
G = Gravitational constant = 6.67428 * 10-11
M = Mass = 5.9736 * 1024 kg
r = Radius = 6,371.0 km = 6,371,000 m

Ergo:
U = (3/5)(6.67428 * 10-11)(5.9736 * 1024 kg)2/(6,371,000 m) = 2.24295 * 1032

Alright... that's quite a bit more than the energy we get from the pig. The question, then, is: how many pigs do we have to fire at the planet to make it explode?

The answer: 3.15419 * 1021, or 3 sextillion pigs.


Edit: Good news! We need only 1.7 quintillion pigs to blow up the moon!

Another edit: If we use the fattest pig we can find (350 kg), we can increase our energy output sevenfold!

Yet another edit: And if we use the second death star, the energy will increase by a factor of 31!

Last edit, I swear: That means with extra fat pigs lauched by the second death star, we only need 7.8 quadrillion pigs to blow up the moon.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-10-19, 08:54 AM
Hmm... peasant-and-pig powered death star?

Could a peasant rail gun (one that fits in the death star) be used to destroy a planet?

Edit: Math to the rescue!

The first death star was 160,000 meters in diameter. That's 524,934 feet. Divided by 5, that gives us the maximum number of peasants we can fit in a straight line: 104,986. The number of peasants isn't important to the calculation, but it's nice to know how many peasants the empire must draft for this job.

Alright, so we have a pig. We'll take a small one, so the peasants won't drop it - say, 50 kg, which seems to be about the minimum weight of an adult pig.

Now to find out the speed of the pig. It moves 160,000 meters in 6 seconds; that's 26,666 meters per second. But that's the average speed, and we need to know the pig's speed when it leaves the Death Star. That's twice the average speed, or 53,333 m/s.

Now we know the pig's speed and the pig's mass, we can calculate its kinetic energy, which is:

Ek = 1/2 m v2 = 1/2 * 50 kg * (53,333 m/s)2 = 71,110,222,225 J

That's quite a lot, but is it enough to destroy a planet?

Let's take a planet we're familiar with - Earth. Its mass is 5.9736 * 1024 kg. That's quite a lot.

According to the all-knowing wikipedia, we need to exceed the planet's gravitational binding energy to break it apart.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/1/8/4/184e59437933fb584cf793840bd5c9b5.png

U = The energy we need to blow up the planet
G = Gravitational constant = 6.67428 * 10-11
M = Mass = 5.9736 * 1024 kg
r = Radius = 6,371.0 km = 6,371,000 m

Ergo:
U = (3/5)(6.67428 * 10-11)(5.9736 * 1024 kg)2/(6,371,000 m) = 2.24295 * 1032

Alright... that's quite a bit more than the energy we get from the pig. The question, then, is: how many pigs do we have to fire at the planet to make it explode?

The answer: 3.15419 * 1021, or 3 sextillion pigs.


Edit: Good news! We need only 1.7 quintillion pigs to blow up the moon!

Another edit: If we use the fattest pig we can find (350 kg), we can increase our energy output sevenfold!

Yet another edit: And if we use the second death star, the energy will increase by a factor of 31!

Last edit, I swear: That means with extra fat pigs lauched by the second death star, we only need 7.8 quadrillion pigs to blow up the moon.

So close, yet so far away...

Project_Mayhem
2008-10-19, 09:31 AM
Can you explain that again for people who aren't good at math please?

Running really hard into stuff breaks it.

Vexxation
2008-10-19, 09:33 AM
Hmm... peasant-and-pig powered death star? *snip*

Hm... What about filling the entire volume of the second death star with peasants? It doesn't have to be a straight line, does it? Just start at the top and spiral down until the desired velocity to destroy a planet is reached. Granted, it requires some reverse-maths, but it's a valid shot.

Lord Herman
2008-10-19, 09:38 AM
Unfortunately, it has to be a straight line. Physics commands it.

Vexxation
2008-10-19, 09:46 AM
Unfortunately, it has to be a straight line. Physics commands it.

Bah.
Stupid physics and my lack of knowledge relating to it.

Oh well.

Project_Mayhem
2008-10-19, 09:49 AM
Unfortunately, it has to be a straight line. Physics commands it.

Thats true. What if we use teleportation circles? How long could we make the line then?


in b4 portal reference

Lord Herman
2008-10-19, 09:51 AM
in b4 portal reference

The cake is a lie?

Project_Mayhem
2008-10-19, 09:54 AM
The cake is a lie?

The one about thinking with portals.

Would that work? Could we pass the pig through the teleportation circle to a peasant on the other side as a free action?

Lord Herman
2008-10-19, 10:07 AM
Assuming it does work:

You can fit 635,454,988,103,891 5-ft cubes in the first death star. Each fits a single peasant. So we need 635 trillion peasants.

That means we can make a 'straight' line of peasants 953,182,482,155,836 meters long. That means the final velocity of the pig is:

v = 953,182,482,155,836 m * 2 / 6 seconds = 317,727,494,051,945 m/s

Using the really fat pig, the kinetic energy is:

Ek = 1/2 m v2 = 1/2 * 350 kg * 317,727,494,051,9452 = 1.7 * 1031 J = 17 nonillion joules

So close, but still not enough. These results do mean we can blow up the moon easily, even with the lighter pig.

We did, however, use the first death star. If we use the second one, which is 900 km in diameter, we have a 169,646,003,293,848,834-meter line of peasants; about 500 times as long as the one in the first death star.

v = 169,646,003,293,848,834 m * 2 / 6 seconds = 56,548,667,764,616,278 m/s

The kinetic energy is:

Ek = 1/2 * 350 kg * 56,548,667,764,616,2782 = 5.6 * 1035 J = 559 decillion joules

This is more than enough energy to blow up the planet; we can use the smaller pig if we want; the kinetic energy of the pig is about a thousand times as much as we need.

Project_Mayhem
2008-10-19, 10:12 AM
Assuming it does work:

You can fit 635,454,988,103,891 5-ft cubes in the first death star. Each fits a single peasant. So we need 635 trillion peasants.

That means we can make a 'straight' line of peasants 953,182,482,155,836 meters long. That means the final velocity of the pig is:

v = 953,182,482,155,836 m * 2 / 6 seconds = 317,727,494,051,945 m/s

Using the really fat pig, the kinetic energy is:

Ek = 1/2 m v2 = 1/2 * 350 kg * 317,727,494,051,9452 = 1.7 * 1031 J = 17 nonillion joules

So close, but still not enough. These results do mean we can blow up the moon easily, even with the lighter pig.

We did, however, use the first death star. If we use the second one, which is 900 km in diameter, we have a 169,646,003,293,848,834-meter line of peasants; about 500 times as long as the one in the first death star.

v = 169,646,003,293,848,834 m * 2 / 6 seconds = 56,548,667,764,616,278 m/s

The kinetic energy is:

Ek = 1/2 * 350 kg * 56,548,667,764,616,2782 = 5.6 * 1035 J = 559 decillion joules

This is more than enough energy to blow up the planet; we can use the smaller pig if we want; the kinetic energy of the pig is about a thousand times as much as we need.

Yay blahblahblah

Vexxation
2008-10-19, 10:12 AM
The one about thinking with portals.

Would that work? Could we pass the pig through the teleportation circle to a peasant on the other side as a free action?

Teleportation Circles function as Greater Teleport, which in turn functions as Teleport, which is listed as instantaneous. So it seems they work just like Portal's portals, save the "falling back through once you've landed" bit. Can it be assumed that they conserve momentum and all that?

Project_Mayhem
2008-10-19, 10:14 AM
Teleportation Circles function as Greater Teleport, which in turn functions as Teleport, which is listed as instantaneous. So it seems they work just like Portal's portals, save the "falling back through once you've landed" bit. Can it be assumed that they conserve momentum and all that?

It doesn't say, does it. Is there a precedent anywhere else in the rules?

Draco Dracul
2008-10-19, 10:16 AM
Assuming it does work:

You can fit 635,454,988,103,891 5-ft cubes in the first death star. Each fits a single peasant. So we need 635 trillion peasants.

That means we can make a 'straight' line of peasants 953,182,482,155,836 meters long. That means the final velocity of the pig is:

v = 953,182,482,155,836 m * 2 / 6 seconds = 317,727,494,051,945 m/s

Using the really fat pig, the kinetic energy is:

Ek = 1/2 m v2 = 1/2 * 350 kg * 317,727,494,051,9452 = 1.7 * 1031 J = 17 nonillion joules

So close, but still not enough. These results do mean we can blow up the moon easily, even with the lighter pig.

We did, however, use the first death star. If we use the second one, which is 900 km in diameter, we have a 169,646,003,293,848,834-meter line of peasants; about 500 times as long as the one in the first death star.

v = 169,646,003,293,848,834 m * 2 / 6 seconds = 56,548,667,764,616,278 m/s

The kinetic energy is:

Ek = 1/2 * 350 kg * 56,548,667,764,616,2782 = 5.6 * 1035 J = 559 decillion joules

This is more than enough energy to blow up the planet; we can use the smaller pig if we want; the kinetic energy of the pig is about a thousand times as much as we need.

I take it that we are ignoring that the pig has been accelerated faster than the speed of light (of course silly things like that don't matter in the starwars universe)

Mushroom Ninja
2008-10-19, 10:18 AM
Assuming it does work:

You can fit 635,454,988,103,891 5-ft cubes in the first death star. Each fits a single peasant. So we need 635 trillion peasants.

That means we can make a 'straight' line of peasants 953,182,482,155,836 meters long. That means the final velocity of the pig is:

v = 953,182,482,155,836 m * 2 / 6 seconds = 317,727,494,051,945 m/s

Using the really fat pig, the kinetic energy is:

Ek = 1/2 m v2 = 1/2 * 350 kg * 317,727,494,051,9452 = 1.7 * 1031 J = 17 nonillion joules

So close, but still not enough. These results do mean we can blow up the moon easily, even with the lighter pig.

We did, however, use the first death star. If we use the second one, which is 900 km in diameter, we have a 169,646,003,293,848,834-meter line of peasants; about 500 times as long as the one in the first death star.

v = 169,646,003,293,848,834 m * 2 / 6 seconds = 56,548,667,764,616,278 m/s

The kinetic energy is:

Ek = 1/2 * 350 kg * 56,548,667,764,616,2782 = 5.6 * 1035 J = 559 decillion joules

This is more than enough energy to blow up the planet; we can use the smaller pig if we want; the kinetic energy of the pig is about a thousand times as much as we need.

Very nice! Now, what if we had two of these pig cannon deathstars pointed at eachother?

Lord Herman
2008-10-19, 10:18 AM
@Draco Dracul: Shush, details. Besides, the actual speed of the pig isn't important - if we're going by the theory of relativity, the pig cannot be accelerated to the speed of light, but the laws of kinetics are adjusted accordingly; in the end, the kinetic energy will still be the same as it would be in Newtonian physics.

@Mushroom Ninja: Well, the kinetic energy of both pigs would be combined, and converted into a more convenient form. Possibly heat. Of course, at those energies, the pigs' atoms would undergo fusion, or maybe they would even collapse into a black hole.

Flickerdart
2008-10-19, 10:42 AM
Don't Tiny creatures take up half a square? If we use really small Commoners, we can effectively double the power of the cannon! Of course, we would have to sacrifice pig weight. Can someone work out what the optimal commoner size category would be?
I would be very amused at a million Pixies passing along a marble and blowing up a planet with it.

Lord Herman
2008-10-19, 10:45 AM
Well, the size of the peasants doesn't really matter; it's all about the distance the pig travels. However, smaller peasants take up less vertical space, so you can squeeze more lines of them in a death star.

Vexxation
2008-10-19, 10:49 AM
Well, the size of the peasants doesn't really matter; it's all about the distance the pig travels. However, smaller peasants take up less vertical space, so you can squeeze more lines of them in a death star.

So what we need are pygmies. Now... to find a D&D race of actual pygmies...

Keld Denar
2008-10-19, 11:19 AM
For the single character speed record, go to the forums formally known as Gleemax and search for Chuck, the Ruby Knight Windicator. His land speed is measured in Chuck Units, which are something like 122,000 feet/round IIRC. Basically, Chuck and his Cohort (Max Turnage) expend an arbitrarily large number of Turn Attempts to gain swift actions to activate an infinite Staff of Greater Celerity and taking a run action moving 5 Chuck Units per turn attempt. The end result is a Tornado Throw that launches the target somewhere to the far end of the Multiverse, barring any major incidences likes...running into a star.

Chuck uses some kind of sketchy rules though, including abuse of the RKV's Divine Impetus, which was recently FAQed to be usable only once per round. Still, if you want to see the highest possible land speed reachable by any character, Chuck is the way to go.

Smeggedoff
2008-10-19, 11:41 AM
so you're saying we need to have Chuck Race the Pig?

Flickerdart
2008-10-19, 11:44 AM
so you're saying we need to have Chuck Race the Pig?
A game of Extreme Pigball, which is just like football, except the players are Chucks and the quarterback is a commoner railgun.

Smeggedoff
2008-10-19, 12:00 PM
I would be very amused at a million Pixies passing along a marble and blowing up a planet with it.

hang on, greater invisibility + fly = greater railgun positioning, stealth and maneuverability

find some way to "paint" the BBEG, have a couple million pixies line up above him with a marble

DEATH FROM ABOVE!
Pixie Marble Death Ray!

Draco Dracul
2008-10-19, 12:12 PM
DEATH FROM ABOVE!
Pixie Marble Death Ray!

That sounds like it would be a very good name an ultimate technique for a silly fighting game.

Smeggedoff
2008-10-19, 12:29 PM
That sounds like it would be a very good name an ultimate technique for a silly fighting game.

lol, or an anime

Take this! my love, my anger and all of my sorrow!
DEATH FROM ABOVE
PIXIE RAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!

Draco Dracul
2008-10-19, 12:34 PM
lol, or an anime

Take this! my love, my anger and all of my sorrow!
DEATH FROM ABOVE
PIIIIXIE MAAARRRRBLE DEEEATH RAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!

Fixed for you, the full name is what makes it awsome.

xPANCAKEx
2008-10-19, 02:22 PM
wait.... did you factor in the Death-pig-stars original speed of planetary rotation? Or is it in geo-syncronous orbit?

THESE ARE IMPORTANT AND FUNDAMENTAL QUESTIONS, PEOPLE!

and also - would the pig shatter the moon, or would it drill straight through it?

Flickerdart
2008-10-19, 03:01 PM
and also - would the pig shatter the moon, or would it drill straight through it?
It would drill through the heavens, do the impossible and see the invisible.

Draco Dracul
2008-10-19, 03:14 PM
Assuming we have a 50lb pig how much damage would a mile long pig railgun do?

Smeggedoff
2008-10-19, 03:19 PM
It would drill through the heavens, do the impossible and see the invisible.

ah, but could it kick reason to the curb?

(I knew I should have made a TTGL ref when I have the chance curse you)

PotatoCultist
2008-10-19, 03:39 PM
DEATH FROM ABOVE
PIIIIXIE MAAARRRRBLE DEEEATH RAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!

Sig material. This thread will always have a special place in my heart.

FMArthur
2008-10-19, 06:13 PM
For the single character speed record, go to the forums formally known as Gleemax and search for Chuck, the Ruby Knight Windicator. His land speed is measured in Chuck Units, which are something like 122,000 feet/round IIRC. Basically, Chuck and his Cohort (Max Turnage) expend an arbitrarily large number of Turn Attempts to gain swift actions to activate an infinite Staff of Greater Celerity and taking a run action moving 5 Chuck Units per turn attempt. The end result is a Tornado Throw that launches the target somewhere to the far end of the Multiverse, barring any major incidences likes...running into a star.

Chuck uses some kind of sketchy rules though, including abuse of the RKV's Divine Impetus, which was recently FAQed to be usable only once per round. Still, if you want to see the highest possible land speed reachable by any character, Chuck is the way to go.

Are you referring to Chuck E Cheese (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=993832)? Because 122,000 ft/round is laughably small compared to what he's apparently capable of:

Full Run
1104 x greater celerity(run speed = 5,760,700 ft) = 6,359,812,800 ft = 1,223,040.92 miles.

The circumference of the earth at the equator is 24,902 mi, so Chuck moves 49.1 times around the Earth.

Average Speed (feet per second)
6,354,052,100 ft / 6 sec = 1,059,008,683 ft/sec

The speed of light is 299,792,428 m/sec or 983,571,056 feet per second.

So Chuck moves faster than the speed of light!

Haikiah
2008-10-19, 09:44 PM
Just out of curiousity.... What happens if you hit the slightest bump whilst moving at these kind of speeds? ;) Hell, could your momentum be enough to leave the earths gravity simply by travelling straight?

Draco Dracul
2008-10-19, 10:04 PM
Could someone give me a rough estimate for the damage that a pig rail gun would do if the pig is 50 pounds and the the commoners are lined up for about a mile.

Lord Herman
2008-10-20, 02:52 AM
Alright, first we should find out how fast the pig will be going:

v = 1,609.344 m * 2 / 6 seconds = 536.448 m/s

And then calculate the damage a 50 kg pig will do at that speed (you said 50 pounds, but according to all-knowing wikipedia, adult pigs don't get much lighter than 50 kg):

50 kg * 536.448 m/s / 223 Ns/d6 = 120d6 damage


Edit: So a 50 pound piglet will do 60d6, and the really fat pig would do 840d6.

Ascension
2008-10-20, 02:54 AM
Actually, he said pounds, not kilograms.

Silly Europeans, keep your metric out of our D&D! :smalltongue:

Kidding, kidding...

Lord Herman
2008-10-20, 02:58 AM
Silly Americans, keep your imperial out of our science! :smalltongue:

But yeah, I got that. I just assumed he misread my earlier post as saying the lightest possible adult pig is 50 pounds (instead of 50 kg).

Ravens_cry
2008-10-20, 04:38 AM
This thread is catgirl genocide. . . I love it!
:smallbiggrin:

Neutrino
2008-10-20, 04:55 AM
Edit: Good news! We need only 1.7 quintillion pigs to blow up the moon!



O'course, firing the pigs individually at the moon (or whereever) will achieve little more than completely resurfacing the planet, and a new, thick atmosphere composed largely of vapourised bacon. If you want to actually destroy it, you're going to have to gather all of your pigs together in one giant ball (it'll mass something like a thousandth of the moon itself). Only then will your pig-planet be able to actually destroy the moon.

_Zoot_
2008-10-20, 06:20 AM
Man this is to much fun :smallbiggrin:

Thanks to those that do math because the rest of us can't.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-10-20, 09:44 AM
Are you referring to Chuck E Cheese (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=993832)? Because 122,000 ft/round is laughably small compared to what he's apparently capable of:

:smalleek:Chuck E Cheese pig passing relay?:smalleek:

EPIC WIN!:smallbiggrin:

Epinephrine
2008-10-20, 12:40 PM
Hmm, I just realised that a Crusader X/Knight Protector 3 can actually move faster than Chuck E Cheese. Once you have the Aura of Perfect Order, you can take an 11 on your to hit roll (eliminating those pesky 1s).

0.) Enter Aura of Perfect Order stance with your character, and a weapon/strength that will guarantee a kill on a kobold.
1.) Line up N kobolds, where N is the distance you wish to travel/5 feet.
2.) n=1
3.) Hit the nth kobold
4.) n=n+1
5.) Using Supreme Cleave, take a free 5 foot step before your Great Cleave
6.) Great Cleave the nth kobold
7.) if n<=N, repeat 3.) through 6.), else 8.)
8.) ???
9.) Profit!Arrive at your destination, with a move and swift action left over.

Eldariel
2008-10-20, 12:42 PM
Once you have the Aura of Perfect Order, you can take an 11 on your to hit roll (eliminating those pesky 1s).

Once per round.

Epinephrine
2008-10-20, 12:45 PM
Once per round.

Oops. Hmm, any other way to eliminate 1s? We play with the variant rule that a 20 is actually a 30, and a 1 is actually a -9 (or -10, I forget), so we could still manage it with a sufficiently high BAB/attack bonus, but it seldom comes into play.

Lord Herman
2008-10-20, 12:50 PM
Also, I believe you don't actually get free 5-foot steps with supreme cleave; you just get to use that turn's 5-foot step in between cleave attacks.

Epinephrine
2008-10-20, 01:00 PM
Also, I believe you don't actually get free 5-foot steps with supreme cleave; you just get to use that turn's 5-foot step in between cleave attacks.

Well, the quote is:
"Beginning at 3rd level, a knight protector can take a 5-foot step between attacks when using the Cleave or Great Cleave feat."

So it's a bit ambiguous (what a surprise...) - if it meant the only 5 foot step permitted, it might well read "his" 5-foot step, instead of "a" 5-foot step, or might mention a limit. Semantically, the use of "can" rather than "may" indicates that it's not just a permitted action, but a possible action, which would imply that they have a free 5-foot step. Sure, it's cheesy, but if one interprets it as being able to make the step between any two cleave/great cleave attacks, you've got infinite possible speed, provided you hit repeatedly.

Zeful
2008-10-20, 01:19 PM
Whatever that aura is to reroll 1's in the infinate damage build. I though it was Aura of Chaos but that adds more dice when ever you roll the maximum with the die.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-20, 01:22 PM
Whatever that aura is to reroll 1's in the infinate damage build. I though it was Aura of Chaos but that adds more dice when ever you roll the maximum with the die.It's Imbued Healing:Luck, a Cleric feat, and requires casting Cure spells. It works here, as it makes all ones rolled turn into 2s.

Lord Herman
2008-10-20, 01:28 PM
Back to sieges!

With the 1-mile peasant railgun, we shall try to blow a hole in a city wall. This wall, as we remember, has 2700 hit points and hardness 8. Since it's an object, all attacks do only half damage to it.

With a 50-kg pig:
2700 / (Avg(120d6) / 2 - 8) = 13.4

We need to fire 14 pigs at the wall to make a breach.

With a 350-kg pig:
2700 / (Avg(840d6) / 2 - 8) = 1.85

We only need 2 really fat pigs to breach the wall.

Smeggedoff
2008-10-20, 01:31 PM
what peasant has a carrying capacity of 350kg? O.O

Lord Herman
2008-10-20, 01:36 PM
A peasant who got really strong from carrying 350-kg pigs around all the time?

<_<
>_>

Oh, shush.

Keld Denar
2008-10-20, 01:41 PM
This thread brings new meaning to the expression "Bringing Home the Bacon"!

Also, doing math and physics in metric is a metric boop ton easier. Especially when you start talking about really big and really small numbers, base 10 system is much easier. I work as an engineer for a group of pipefitters, and decimal-inches are about the most bass-ackward thing every invented. Seriously, try adding fractional foot + inch measurements on a calculator? Unless you've got a construction calculator, you have to convert all your fractional inches into decimal feet, which is a royal pain in the rear, and THEN do the math, and THEN convert back to fractional inch notation because thats how everyone wants to see the dimensions expressed. Lame-o. Also, mechanical stresses. Imperial tries to be as cool as metric by using the kip, or kilopound, which is just about the most foolish thing I've ever heard...

[/rant]

Lord Herman
2008-10-20, 01:46 PM
Behold, the pig railgun equation:

Np = 160,000ww/(7mplr-21500)

Np is the number of pigs needed
ww is the width of the wall in meters
mp is the mass of the pig in kg
lr is the length of the peasant railgun in meters

Lord Herman
2008-10-20, 01:50 PM
Wait, I think my equation isn't quite correct. If the pig is too light or the railgun too short, you need a negative number of pigs to breach the wall.

...

Science proves it! Negative pigs can be used to breach walls!

Keld Denar
2008-10-20, 01:58 PM
Negative pigs? Is that like a Pig- or an antipig? What happens when a pig and a pig- come into contact? Do you get annihilation? Pork Chops? These are the kind of questions that science demands. Being not a pork-icle physicist myself, I don't have the knowledge, experience, or millions of dollars of government research funding to figure this out!

Roderick_BR
2008-10-20, 02:03 PM
Unfortunately, it has to be a straight line. Physics commands it.
Physics? In D&D? Haha. Is there a rule for losing momentun if you make a sharp 90º turn? Or objects being handled from one person to other being given to the guy at your right instead of in front/back of you?


This thread is catgirl genocide. . . I love it!
:smallbiggrin:
Forget killing catgirls, pigs, peasants, or destroying the planets of moons... My brain already burned out with all the math :smalltongue:


DEATH FROM ABOVE
PIIIIXIE MAAARRRRBLE DEEEATH RAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!
Draco Dracul, Smeggedoff, you two won D&D.

Draco Dracul
2008-10-20, 04:33 PM
With a 350-kg pig:
2700 / (Avg(840d6) / 2 - 8) = 1.85

We only need 2 really fat pigs to breach the wall.

You can achive the same result using a 50kg pig and a two mile railgun.

Lord Herman
2008-10-20, 04:41 PM
I don't think so. Doubling the length of the railgun should double the damage dealt by the pig's impact. You'd need a seven-mile railgun to deal as much damage with a 50-kg pig as you could do with a 350-kg pig on a one-mile railgun.

Eorran
2008-10-20, 04:55 PM
Just out of curiousity.... What happens if you hit the slightest bump whilst moving at these kind of speeds? ;) Hell, could your momentum be enough to leave the earths gravity simply by travelling straight?

Actually, moving through atmosphere at these speeds would cause a pressure wave to build in front of you (the air can't move around you fast enough). Once the pressure exceeds your body's ability to hold against it, you go splat.

Draco Dracul
2008-10-20, 05:02 PM
I don't think so. Doubling the length of the railgun should double the damage dealt by the pig's impact. You'd need a seven-mile railgun to deal as much damage with a 50-kg pig as you could do with a 350-kg pig on a one-mile railgun.

I used your formula. Since doubling the distance doubles the speed shouldn't that quadruple the kinetic energy?

Also according to your pig railgun equation a single 350kg pig fired out of a 1600 meter railgun should be enough to destroy a 15 foot wall.

Lord Herman
2008-10-20, 05:08 PM
Ah, okay, the kinetic energy formula. I've been using the momentum-to-damage formula.

The pig railgun equation doesn't work, though. I'm not sure what I did wrong, but if the pig is too light or the railgun too short, you need a negative number of pigs to breach the wall.

Flickerdart
2008-10-20, 05:20 PM
Ah, okay, the kinetic energy formula. I've been using the momentum-to-damage formula.

The pig railgun equation doesn't work, though. I'm not sure what I did wrong, but if the pig is too light or the railgun too short, you need a negative number of pigs to breach the wall.
That jsut means the wall is immune against that length of gun or weight of pig. DR X/antipig!

What size category would a mile-long cannon be? Colossal+++?

Draco Dracul
2008-10-20, 05:29 PM
That jsut means the wall is immune against that length of gun or weight of pig. DR X/antipig!

What size category would a mile-long cannon be? Colossal+++?

Its really 1000 medium creatures.

Flickerdart
2008-10-20, 05:50 PM
Its really 1000 medium creatures.
No, but if there's DR against it, it's a weapon, and needs a size category. Maybe they can count as a Swarm.

Draco Dracul
2008-10-20, 06:01 PM
No, but if there's DR against it, it's a weapon, and needs a size category. Maybe they can count as a Swarm.

A commoner swarm? Could work. Also this:

GO ULTIMATE ATTACK
COMMONER SWARM PIG CANNON!!!

Smeggedoff
2008-10-20, 07:31 PM
what's the CR for a peasant?
how many summon monster spells would you need to summon 1000 peasants?..orc peasants...peons...whatever
zugzug

I could just imagine this, an lvl 20 gnomish summoner, royal blue steampunk costume..maybe pink
with a single custom spell summons 1000 gnomish peasants dressed in matching uniform
as a prepared action for the summoned team
one at one end who has one wizard or druid level casts summon:pig, one at the other end with a bard level sings an oompa loompa song

oompah-loompah doompity doo
I've got a pork based present for you!
oompah-loompah doompity dat
this little pi-ggy goes oompity, doompity splat!
SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEL!!!!! *KA-PIGGY!*

Lord Herman
2008-10-20, 07:49 PM
That jsut means the wall is immune against that length of gun or weight of pig. DR X/antipig!

What size category would a mile-long cannon be? Colossal+++?

Hmm... you might be right; at some point, the wall's toughness will absorb all damage dealt to it. Still strange that the equation spits out a negative number, rather than an infinitely large one.

ashmanonar
2008-10-20, 08:17 PM
IIRC falling damage is classifed as bludgeoning, and since lich are immune to bludgeoning damage...

...Immune to bludgeoning? I could swear that that was the only way to kill 'em. Unless you cast magic weapon on...yourself.

Okay, checked the listing. Liches have DR 15/Bludgeoning and Magic, which means you need bludgeoning magic weapons to bypass.

nc-edsl
2008-10-20, 09:02 PM
Is there some spell that could be used to remove the air from inside a Resilient Sphere? If there is, the two spells could be used together with Teleportation Circle (supported by a platform within the sphere) to accelerate a pig to any speed, and a Greased quarterpipe could redirect the pig to be fired when the spell ends.

If, however, we used a villager instead of a pig, the scenario is much better. Place a contingency Animate Dead on them, as well as contingency Enlarge Person, both cued to go off as soon as they clear the quarterpipe. If they are going any type of reasonable speed then the friction from the quarterpipe will set them on fire (and the force of redirection will kill the villager if they haven't suffocated yet), meaning the end result would be to launch a giant flaming zombie at the target at relativistic speeds.

Edit: Thought of a way to solve the air problem. Cast Teleportation Circle on a platform, and submerge it in molten iron (or some other metal). Create a single use time-delayed Disintegrate magic item, and suspend exactly five feet above the Teleportation Circle. When the iron cools and the item goes off, it will annihilate a 10 foot cube (centered on the magic item) exposing but not damaging the Teleportation Circle, and creating an absolute vacuum. Teleport the villager into the vacuum chamber, and he will accelerate infinitely, until Disintegrate is used to remove the bottom of the vacuum chamber, at which point he will be launched as described above.

Lord Herman
2008-10-21, 04:22 AM
If, however, we used a villager instead of a pig, the scenario is much better. Place a contingency Animate Dead on them, as well as contingency Enlarge Person, both cued to go off as soon as they clear the quarterpipe. If they are going any type of reasonable speed then the friction from the quarterpipe will set them on fire (and the force of redirection will kill the villager if they haven't suffocated yet), meaning the end result would be to launch a giant flaming zombie at the target at relativistic speeds.

How about we use a villager and a pig? Giant flaming pig-wielding zombie, ahoy!

BobVosh
2008-10-21, 04:31 AM
How about we use a villager and a pig? Giant flaming pig-wielding zombie, ahoy!

Better yet, giant fire zombie bringing fresh roasted bacon in order to make sure anyone would let him through any zombie cannon launcher defenses. Can't resist bacon...

Make will save vs delicious meat!

Smeggedoff
2008-10-21, 04:51 AM
Better yet, giant fire zombie bringing fresh roasted bacon in order to make sure anyone would let him through any zombie cannon launcher defenses. Can't resist bacon...

Make will save vs delicious meat!

except that one enemy druid who'll ruin it for everyone by walking off the ramparts in a huff mumbling something about "no vegetarian option" and "talking to HR in the morning" you all know the one

llamamushroom
2008-10-21, 04:54 AM
How about we use a villager and a pig? Giant flaming pig-wielding zombie, ahoy!

And, if Roman warfare has taught us anything, will scare the living daylights out of any passing elephants.

Lord Herman
2008-10-21, 04:57 AM
Indeed. After all, have we not all heard the story about how the Romans used a peasant railgun to obliterate Hannibal's army of elephants?

BobVosh
2008-10-21, 05:08 AM
Indeed. After all, have we not all heard the story about how the Romans used a peasant railgun to obliterate Hannibal's army of elephants?

Ah, yes, the Holy Senate's Mighty Pigballista. One of my favorite bedtime stories.

Smeggedoff
2008-10-21, 07:32 AM
Ah, yes, the Holy Senate's Mighty Pigballista. One of my favorite bedtime stories.

and faithfully translated into the ROME: Total War expansion "Pork Warfare"
the look on that opponents face when you build your 1000th peasant and hit the button

Roderick_BR
2008-10-21, 08:30 AM
Speaking of damage type.. pulling a quote from DragonFable: "Does it deal bacon damage?"

ericgrau
2008-10-21, 10:01 AM
Your wizard would take 20d6 for falling into the dragon, assuming you hit stone-hard scales. The dragon would not take nearly so much damage, because he is larger than you. It should be roughly proportional to weight, plus you'r softer than him. In the end he probably receives 1 point of damage from the 100mph impact, except maybe if he weighs less than 70 times your weight.

Plus d&d seems to be a low gravity yet low terminal velocity world. Yet strength scores lift the same amount of weight. So it's hard to say how much damage you'd actually deal.

This is a common problem when people try to bring physics into d&d. The common answer is to say, "This isn't real!" or "D&d has magic", which is even worse (because d&d at least tries). The real answer is that people usually screw up the physics so horribly that you shouldn't use something you don't understand. You'll only ruin the game for something you think is right, when common sense would be better than your poor understand of physics.

Or, short answer:
"You scream towards the dragon at 100mph on your steed, collide with him and take 20d6 damag. You are thrown off your steed and prone. The dragon is unscathed, since he's a friggin' 10 ton dragon. What were you thinking??"

Draco Dracul
2008-10-21, 06:51 PM
Okay how can we use our commoner swarm pig cannon to defeat a Tarrqasque as per the rules of this thread? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94501)
I ask because according the rules of the thread commoners are free, so we can get as many as we need.

Lord Herman
2008-10-21, 07:11 PM
Well, that thread does say we're not allowed to use obvious cheese. Such as the commoner railgun. But if we conveniently ignore that bit, we can easily kill the tarrasque.

Commoners are free, and we're on an infinite, featureless plain. We can arrange our forces as we wish, and we get a surprise round. This means we can make the commoner railgun as long as we like. Ergo, we can do as much damage as we like. So if we simply make, say, a 1 lightyear railgun, we should be able to blow the Tarrasque to smithereens, no problem. And the other thread even says we don't need to cast a wish to keep it dead.

For the record, a 50-kg pig fired from a lightyear-long railgun deals 707 trillion d6 damage.

The cost of our little project: 4 gp for the pig. That's it.

Edit: If we use an epic pig, we can even ignore the Tarrasque's damage reduction!

Starbuck_II
2008-10-21, 07:21 PM
IIRC falling damage is classifed as bludgeoning, and since lich are immune to bludgeoning damage...

False, reread the DMG, DR only protects against weapons (manufactored like a sword/natural weapon like a claw). Falling damage is neither.

Fall damage deals full damage to Golem, Liches, etc.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-10-21, 10:57 PM
Hmmm, I'm not sure that using teleportation circles would work. Doesn't the pig's velocity go back to zero when it's passed through the circle?

Lord Herman
2008-10-22, 02:34 AM
Why would it? The text of the spell doesn't say it stops a moving creature. If the spell doesn't specify otherwise, the laws of physics apply as normal; momentum is preserved.

...and why do people keep telling poor koldstare he's wrong about the lich's DR every other page of the thread?

Ethdred
2008-10-22, 05:56 AM
Your wizard would take 20d6 for falling into the dragon, assuming you hit stone-hard scales. The dragon would not take nearly so much damage, because he is larger than you. It should be roughly proportional to weight, plus you'r softer than him. In the end he probably receives 1 point of damage from the 100mph impact, except maybe if he weighs less than 70 times your weight.

Plus d&d seems to be a low gravity yet low terminal velocity world. Yet strength scores lift the same amount of weight. So it's hard to say how much damage you'd actually deal.

This is a common problem when people try to bring physics into d&d. The common answer is to say, "This isn't real!" or "D&d has magic", which is even worse (because d&d at least tries). The real answer is that people usually screw up the physics so horribly that you shouldn't use something you don't understand. You'll only ruin the game for something you think is right, when common sense would be better than your poor understand of physics.

Or, short answer:
"You scream towards the dragon at 100mph on your steed, collide with him and take 20d6 damag. You are thrown off your steed and prone. The dragon is unscathed, since he's a friggin' 10 ton dragon. What were you thinking??"


Don't you love it when people completely fail to see the joke? This was the funniest post in the thread, up until the mention of the epic pig.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-10-22, 07:41 AM
Why would it? The text of the spell doesn't say it stops a moving creature. If the spell doesn't specify otherwise, the laws of physics apply as normal; momentum is preserved.

I suppose that makes sense, come to think of it.

Roderick_BR
2008-10-22, 08:51 AM
Or, short answer:
"You scream towards the dragon at 100mph on your steed, collide with him and take 20d6 damag. You are thrown off your steed and prone. The dragon is unscathed, since he's a friggin' 10 ton dragon. What were you thinking??"
A 10 ton dragon that STILL takes damage if something hits him at incredible speed, still counting damage reduction and all. Or else they'd be immune to boulders from catapults, and other "falling ammunition".

Mushroom Ninja
2008-10-22, 09:54 AM
Or, short answer:
"You scream towards the dragon at 100mph on your steed, collide with him and take 20d6 damag. You are thrown off your steed and prone. The dragon is unscathed, since he's a friggin' 10 ton dragon. What were you thinking??"

Actually, by some law of physics (maybe Newton's third? I can't remember) they should take equal damage. Mind, the dragon, having hundreds of Hps may be able to survive it much better than the wizard.

Dentarthur
2008-10-22, 12:05 PM
Actually, by some law of physics (maybe Newton's third? I can't remember) they should take equal damage. Mind, the dragon, having hundreds of Hps may be able to survive it much better than the wizard.
They wouldn't take equal damage, they'd experience the same change in momentum. For creatures of greatly differing sizes, that means completely different amounts of damage.

Let's figure out a formula. Assume that falling/collision damage is proportional to kinetic energy. If you fall d feet, and your acceleration due to gravity g is 32 feet per second^2, your speed at the end of that fall is v = sqrt(d*32) feet per second. If you weigh m pounds, your kinetic energy k is proportional to m*v^2, and the damage you take is proportional to k/m.

If you hurl yourself at a dragon at speed v, and the dragon weighs M pounds, the damge he takes should be proportional to k/M. So he should take damage as if he fell D = d*m/M feet. Expressing d in terms of v, we get D = v^2 * m/M / 32. That's the equivalent fall for the dragon, and he should take d6 damage for each 10 feet of it, so he takes (v^2 * m/M / 320)d6 damage.

For convenience, let's express velocity as f, the number of feet you traveled in a round. f = 6v, so that's (f^2 * m/M / 11520)d6 damage. So if we get a thousand commoners chucking a Medium pig at a Huge dragon, assuming the dragon weighs 64 times as much as the pig, then f=5000 and m/M = 1/64, and the damage to the dragon is (5000*5000 / 64 / 11520)d6, or 33d6. The pig, however, takes 2170d6 damage, making him a faint greasy spot on the dragon's hide. Which smells like bacon.

Asbestos
2008-10-22, 01:17 PM
They wouldn't take equal damage, they'd experience the same change in momentum. For creatures of greatly differing sizes, that means completely different amounts of damage.

Let's figure out a formula. Assume that falling/collision damage is proportional to kinetic energy. If you fall d feet, and your acceleration due to gravity g is 32 feet per second^2, your speed at the end of that fall is v = sqrt(d*32) feet per second. If you weigh m pounds, your kinetic energy k is proportional to m*v^2, and the damage you take is proportional to k/m.

If you hurl yourself at a dragon at speed v, and the dragon weighs M pounds, the damge he takes should be proportional to k/M. So he should take damage as if he fell D = d*m/M feet. Expressing d in terms of v, we get D = v^2 * m/M / 32. That's the equivalent fall for the dragon, and he should take d6 damage for each 10 feet of it, so he takes (v^2 * m/M / 320)d6 damage.

For convenience, let's express velocity as f, the number of feet you traveled in a round. f = v/6, so that's (f^2 * m/M / 11520)d6 damage. So if we get a thousand commoners chucking a Medium pig at a Huge dragon, assuming the dragon weighs 64 times as much as the pig, then f=5000 and m/M = 1/64, and the damage to the dragon is (5000*5000 / 64 / 11520)d6, or 33d6. The pig, however, takes 2170d6 damage, making him a faint greasy spot on the dragon's hide. Which smells like bacon.

So, if I shoot a 100kg animal with a 4g object traveling at 940 m/s... how much damage do I do?

Lord Herman
2008-10-22, 01:24 PM
They wouldn't take equal damage, they'd experience the same change in momentum. For creatures of greatly differing sizes, that means completely different amounts of damage.

Let's figure out a formula. Assume that falling/collision damage is proportional to kinetic energy. If you fall d feet, and your acceleration due to gravity g is 32 feet per second^2, your speed at the end of that fall is v = sqrt(d*32) feet per second. If you weigh m pounds, your kinetic energy k is proportional to m*v^2, and the damage you take is proportional to k/m.

If you hurl yourself at a dragon at speed v, and the dragon weighs M pounds, the damge he takes should be proportional to k/M. So he should take damage as if he fell D = d*m/M feet. Expressing d in terms of v, we get D = v^2 * m/M / 32. That's the equivalent fall for the dragon, and he should take d6 damage for each 10 feet of it, so he takes (v^2 * m/M / 320)d6 damage.

For convenience, let's express velocity as f, the number of feet you traveled in a round. f = v/6, so that's (f^2 * m/M / 11520)d6 damage. So if we get a thousand commoners chucking a Medium pig at a Huge dragon, assuming the dragon weighs 64 times as much as the pig, then f=5000 and m/M = 1/64, and the damage to the dragon is (5000*5000 / 64 / 11520)d6, or 33d6. The pig, however, takes 2170d6 damage, making him a faint greasy spot on the dragon's hide. Which smells like bacon.

This is all assuming it's an elastic collision. It's not; both the dragon and the pig deform during the collision, and get damaged as a result. It doesn't matter how heavy the dragon is; it'll take just as much damage from the pig as a human would (minus damage reduction, which represents the tougher material the dragon is made of). The dragon's skin will break if it's hit by a speeding pig; it doesn't matter how many pounds of dragon are attached to it.

Dentarthur
2008-10-22, 01:41 PM
So, if I shoot a 100kg animal with a 4g object traveling at 940 m/s... how much damage do I do?
I've actually considered converting my D&D game to SI, but all my players are more comfortable with imperial measurements. Oh well.

Your 3700-commoner paperclip railgun will deal 1d6 damage, btw.

Lord Herman
2008-10-22, 04:37 PM
Hmm... what if we used 1st-level rogues instead of peasants? Would the pig deal +1d6 sneak attack damage per rogue?

Of course, we'll have to be real sneaky about setting up this mile-long row of rogues. Maybe we could tell them to whistle innocently or something.

Smeggedoff
2008-10-22, 05:02 PM
Hmm... what if we used 1st-level rogues instead of peasants? Would the pig deal +1d6 sneak attack damage per rogue?

Of course, we'll have to be real sneaky about setting up this mile-long row of rogues. Maybe we could tell them to whistle innocently or something.

only if the target's within 30 feet, and technically only the peasant at the end needs to have rogue levels as he's doing the throw, everyone else is just getting it up to speed
hmm, or would the pig need rogue levels?

alternatively, we may have found a use for ninja, load up a ninja pig, fling him at a castle, have him ghost step through the wall into the kings sleeping quarters/war room and BAM! sudden strike..shortly followed by bacon bits

Lord Herman
2008-10-22, 05:06 PM
Oh gods... a ninja railgun sneaks up to an enemy city's walls, fires a ninja pig, and blows the king to bacony smithereens without anyone noticing. It's the ultimate weapon in D&D warfare!

kopout
2008-10-22, 05:51 PM
Well, that thread does say we're not allowed to use obvious cheese. Such as the commoner railgun. But if we conveniently ignore that bit, we can easily kill the tarrasque.

Commoners are free, and we're on an infinite, featureless plain. We can arrange our forces as we wish, and we get a surprise round. This means we can make the commoner railgun as long as we like. Ergo, we can do as much damage as we like. So if we simply make, say, a 1 lightyear railgun, we should be able to blow the Tarrasque to smithereens, no problem. And the other thread even says we don't need to cast a wish to keep it dead.

For the record, a 50-kg pig fired from a lightyear-long railgun deals 707 trillion d6 damage.

The cost of our little project: 4 gp for the pig. That's it.

Edit: If we use an epic pig, we can even ignore the Tarrasque's damage reduction!
we don't need to ignore damage reduction!

Flickerdart
2008-10-22, 05:54 PM
we don't need to ignore damage reduction!
It's just a lot cooler this way.

I wonder...can we punch through creatures this way? Obliterate a line of dragons or somesuch.

kopout
2008-10-22, 05:57 PM
It's just a lot cooler this way.

I wonder...can we punch through creatures this way? Obliterate a line of dragons or somesuch.
Probably, But how would we get them to line up?:smallconfused:

Flickerdart
2008-10-22, 06:01 PM
Probably, But how would we get them to line up?:smallconfused:
An enemy army is marching down the road to the keep. This road was built straight because the king has a secret weapon and a thousand men ready to assemble...

Starbuck_II
2008-10-22, 06:08 PM
...and why do people keep telling poor koldstare he's wrong about the lich's DR every other page of the thread?

Keep mentioning something and maybe it will stick.

Asbestos
2008-10-22, 06:16 PM
I've actually considered converting my D&D game to SI, but all my players are more comfortable with imperial measurements. Oh well.

Your 3700-commoner paperclip railgun will deal 1d6 damage, btw.
Did SI for ease of the calculations. :smallsmile:
:smallwink: My numbers btw, were not arbitrary. The weight and speed were for a standard NATO round fired from an M-16 at a 100kg target. I'm pretty sure that a 50kg pig traveling significantly faster than a bullet will obliterate the dragon, given that the pig will most likely massively deform I can envision it being a sort of bone shotgun once it hits the dragon, ripping apart the beastie with pig-shrapnel. I don't see the pig-bits following the original pig-path after the initial hit though. The math you're using is only telling if we're attempting to push the target, we're attempting to kill the target.

kopout
2008-10-22, 06:30 PM
Did SI for ease of the calculations. :smallsmile:
:smallwink: My numbers btw, were not arbitrary. The weight and speed were for a standard NATO round fired from an M-16 at a 100kg target. I'm pretty sure that a 50kg pig traveling significantly faster than a bullet will obliterate the dragon, given that the pig will most likely massively deform I can envision it being a sort of bone shotgun once it hits the dragon, ripping apart the beastie with pig-shrapnel. I don't see the pig-bits following the original pig-path after the initial hit though. The math you're using is only telling if we're attempting to push the target, we're attempting to kill the target.
well said.

An enemy army is marching down the road to the keep. This road was built straight because the king has a secret weapon and a thousand men ready to assemble...

:smallamused:

Draco Dracul
2008-10-22, 07:30 PM
An enemy army is marching down the road to the keep. This road was built straight because the king has a secret weapon and a thousand men ready to assemble...

Would the collision of two Commoner Swarm Pig Cannonstm count as a Large Hamron Collider?:tongue:

Flickerdart
2008-10-22, 08:24 PM
Would the collision of two Commoner Swarm Pig Cannonstm count as a Large Hamron Collider?:tongue:
I think we already did this joke, but with Piggs Bosons.

kopout
2008-10-22, 08:30 PM
We did. Large pigdron collider. Evan had a joke about how large pigs would effect the experiment

Draco Dracul
2008-10-22, 08:39 PM
Sorry, forgot about those. :smallredface:

Lord Herman
2008-10-23, 02:58 AM
Probably, But how would we get them to line up?:smallconfused:

They're probably setting up a railgun of their own :smalleek:

Coke_Can64
2008-10-23, 03:59 AM
And we know what happens when two high-energy and sufficiently fast atoms pigs collide...

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll221/Coke_can64/Nuke.jpg

:biggrin:

However, you'd (possibly, my uh, nuclear science is kinda rusty :smalltongue:) need sufficient mass, some radioactive pigs, extreme speed and... you'd get a nuclear fusion reaction. WITH PIGS! :D

Let's make a pig nuke! :smallbiggrin:

Smeggedoff
2008-10-23, 05:30 AM
Radioactive pigs? don't get bitten :D
spider-pig, spider-pig

BobVosh
2008-10-23, 06:24 AM
Guys, guys! I have something to revolutionalize the industry!

The pig just has to move the distance through x squares, each containing a common to pass it right? Why does it have to be straight? We can use block formations and pass it around in going through the x axis, pass up 1 y, repeat. No longer do you need 3700 by 1, you can just have 3700 square spaces. Which is 3700 square 5ft squares :smallconfused:

Much easier to have a mob than a line.

Lord Herman
2008-10-23, 06:29 AM
It only works when the commoners are arranged in a line, I'm afraid. Momentum is directional, so only the movement in the direction in which you fire the pig counts.

BobVosh
2008-10-23, 06:35 AM
That is momentum. This is D&D rules. Plus it has the same momentum even if it changes directions and continues at the same speed. Or rather continues accelerating at the same pace.

DwarvenExodus
2008-12-22, 04:18 PM
Um, sorry guys, but can I point out a fatal flaw in any commoner railgun? Simple Physics tell us that speed increases mass. the last comoner is gonna be dealing with a pig, like, 1,000,000 kg

Flickerdart
2008-12-22, 04:25 PM
What a nice way to celebrate the day before this would've been thread necromancy. Do you people honestly try to aim for that last day or what?

It can be a Feather Fall-enabled pig that doesn't weigh almost anything downward. Or a zone of Null Gravity. Lots of things to bypass weight.

Zeful
2008-12-22, 04:31 PM
Um, sorry guys, but can I point out a fatal flaw in any commoner railgun? Simple Physics tell us that speed increases mass. the last comoner is gonna be dealing with a pig, like, 1,000,000 kg

Greatest issue with the commoner railgun: D&D doesn't possess earth like physics. Even a Pig moved 100,000,000,000squares in 6 seconds will travel 50' maximum, and deal maybe 1d8 damage (or less).

Pie Guy
2008-12-22, 04:36 PM
Greatest issue with the commoner railgun: D&D doesn't possess earth like physics. Even a Pig moved 100,000,000,000squares in 6 seconds will travel 50' maximum, and deal maybe 1d8 damage (or less).

Can you hold still while I line up some of my friends?

Epinephrine
2008-12-22, 04:41 PM
Simple Physics tell us that speed increases mass.

That's not simple physics. Simple physics is "pigs have mass", or "F=ma".

Lord Herman
2008-12-22, 04:41 PM
Um, sorry guys, but can I point out a fatal flaw in any commoner railgun? Simple Physics tell us that speed increases mass. the last comoner is gonna be dealing with a pig, like, 1,000,000 kg

This isn't exactly true. Some physicists use a virtual mass increase to describe relativistic effects. This is a bit confusing though, because now we're dealing with two separate types of mass, which are normally one and the same: we have inertial mass, which does effectively increase (but not physically; it's just a math thing), and gravitational mass, which doesn't change. So even though the pig does get harder to accelerate with increasing speed, it never actually gets harder to lift for the peasants.

In any case, I explained a few pages back that it doesn't matter if you use relativistic physics or not. The effective energies stay the same, so the pig will still deal the same amount of damage.


Edit:

That's not simple physics. Simple physics is "pigs have mass", or "F=ma".

Exactly. We're talking university level physics here.

Zeful
2008-12-22, 05:29 PM
Can you hold still while I line up some of my friends?

Sure you line up 100 people with a pig. I'll stand 100ft away for six seconds. If you can hit me I'll retract my statement.

Curmudgeon
2008-12-22, 05:43 PM
That's not simple physics. Simple physics is "pigs have mass", or "F=ma". Actually, that's simplified physics, not simple physics. Newton's original formula was F = dp/dt (p = momentum, and dp/dt is the change in momentum over time). Newton never presumed that momentum was always separable into mass and velocity, and that the change applied only to the velocity part. And of course Newton was right.

In D&D terms, no matter how many squares you move the pig through, it's always going at its listed speed at the end. There's certainly accommodation for constant acceleration in D&D, because the falling damage equation is correct (except for 200' instead of ~500' as the cap), but no concern for jerk (the change in acceleration over time). So the pig can go indefinitely fast as it's handed along, yet slow down to its low thrown speed immediately at the end of the hand-offs.

kopout
2008-12-23, 05:07 PM
What a nice way to celebrate the day before this would've been thread necromancy. Do you people honestly try to aim for that last day or what?


there's a cut off date!????

Flickerdart
2008-12-23, 05:10 PM
there's a cut off date!????
3 months is the general rule before it's necromancy. Before that, it's just hideously awful manners.

Lord Herman
2008-12-24, 04:16 PM
Thread Necromancy
Bringing a thread back from “the dead.” If a thread has fallen to page three and hasn’t been posted in for a month and a half, don’t post to it. Start a new topic if you want to discuss the subject.




Actually, that's simplified physics, not simple physics. Newton's original formula was F = dp/dt (p = momentum, and dp/dt is the change in momentum over time). Newton never presumed that momentum was always separable into mass and velocity, and that the change applied only to the velocity part. And of course Newton was right.

In D&D terms, no matter how many squares you move the pig through, it's always going at its listed speed at the end. There's certainly accommodation for constant acceleration in D&D, because the falling damage equation is correct (except for 200' instead of ~500' as the cap), but no concern for jerk (the change in acceleration over time). So the pig can go indefinitely fast as it's handed along, yet slow down to its low thrown speed immediately at the end of the hand-offs.

What listed speed? There's no listed speed for thrown objects. After all, if an ogre tosses a halfling, the halfling isn't limited to his base movement speed. The speed of the halfling isn't even explicitly stated by the rules; it's only implied by the distance it travels in a single round.

Curmudgeon
2008-12-25, 12:02 AM
The listed speed is the distance traveled from the point where the object was thrown divided by either 3 seconds (for a standard action) or 6 seconds (for a full-round action).
To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action.
Each round represents 6 seconds in the game world. I thought we were talking simple physics, where speed = distance/time. Right? :smallconfused:

Habeed
2008-12-25, 01:05 AM
I just read this thread, and I agree with later interpretations : a realistic calculation of damage has to factor in the fact that if a 10 ton dragon hits the ground, the momentum change for the collision of the fall is very different from the momentum change if your 200lb wizard hits the ground.

But another idea : can you build a railgun using teleportation circles that works like in Portal? In the vacuum of space on the surface of a moon, you would set up two teleport circles, one above the other. Drop a lead weight between the two, and have the weight fall into the lower circle, set to teleport it to the upper circle.

The weight would accelerate, going faster and faster until it reached the speed of light (eventually, it would take about 6 years if the gravity of the moon were the same as on Luna, but long before that it would have enough kinetic energy to kill any foe)

Now you just change the destination portal of the bottom teleport circle to one right in front of your target.

Zeful
2008-12-25, 01:12 AM
I just read this thread, and I agree with later interpretations : a realistic calculation of damage has to factor in the fact that if a 10 ton dragon hits the ground, the momentum change for the collision of the fall is very different from the momentum change if your 200lb wizard hits the ground.

But another idea : can you build a railgun using teleportation circles that works like in Portal? In the vacuum of space on the surface of a moon, you would set up two teleport circles, one above the other. Drop a lead weight between the two, and have the weight fall into the lower circle, set to teleport it to the upper circle.

The weight would accelerate, going faster and faster until it reached the speed of light (eventually, it would take about 6 years if the gravity of the moon were the same as on Luna, but long before that it would have enough kinetic energy to kill any foe)

Now you just change the destination portal of the bottom teleport circle to one right in front of your target.

Just to be a joykill, there are no momentum rules, all objects regardless of size cap at 20d6 falling damage, even if they move several hundred times the speed of light.

Lord Herman
2008-12-25, 06:34 AM
The listed speed is the distance traveled from the point where the object was thrown divided by either 3 seconds (for a standard action) or 6 seconds (for a full-round action). I thought we were talking simple physics, where speed = distance/time. Right? :smallconfused:

True, but using the peasant railgun, we can let the pig move as far as we want in those 6 seconds. Therefore, the speed of the pig is theoretically unlimited.

In fact, we can make the pig move faster than the speed of light this way, relativity be damned.

Curmudgeon
2008-12-25, 01:08 PM
True, but using the peasant railgun, we can let the pig move as far as we want in those 6 seconds. That doesn't matter. There's no jerk in D&D, so the speed is only determined from the point at which it's thrown, where it starts at rest. How far it's handed along before that isn't counted at all.

Lord Herman
2008-12-25, 02:32 PM
Why do people insist on using the most logical and sensible interpretation of the rules to disprove the peasant railgun? The whole point of the railgun is the selective use (and abuse) of D&D rules and real-world physics with a focus on causing maximum destruction, not on trying to emulate the real world, or in fact making any sense whatsoever.

Now stop trying to break our railgun, dammit! :smalltongue:

Flickerdart
2008-12-25, 02:58 PM
Now stop trying to break our railgun, dammit! :smalltongue:
Or we'll shoot you with it. Taste bacon, naysayers!

Mushroom Ninja
2008-12-25, 11:42 PM
Or we'll shoot you with it. Taste bacon, naysayers!

Yes they must beware the

PIXIE DEATH RAY!!!!!!!!!!