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infinitypanda
2008-10-16, 07:28 PM
Has anyone run these in a campaign? I'm running some Tucker's Goblins Lite right now, and my players really enjoy the challenge of fighting them (0 and 2 so far, goblin's favor).

Anyways, onto the question. What are your experiences with running Tucker's Kobold-type groups?

Eldariel
2008-10-16, 07:40 PM
I expect every militant, intelligent species to defend in "Tucker's Kobold"ish manner if PCs are dumb enough to move in a hostile manner against their home/fortress/whatever. In fact, I expect that kind of hell every single time PCs attack a fortified position. With an abundant application of dimensional barriers (also the F&K "solid stuff blocks teleportation"-stuff) and anti-magic effects. I mean, fortified positions aren't meant to fall in the face of few adventurers, no matter how tough they may be. Basically, walk into a place the defenders have specifically worked with defense in mind = traps, burning oil, shortcuts, commando teams, etc. Of course, exact make-up of the defense depends on the race and the locale, but you can bet that attacking elven woods or kobold caves is a v. bad idea. So far, one party has experienced a TPK trying to arrange an "elf genocide".

SilverClawShift
2008-10-16, 07:45 PM
One of my groups campaigns opened with a massive poltergeist style haunting in a ridculously wealthy nobles ridiculously huge mansion/compound. Retroactively, we refer to the encounter as "Tuckers Revenge", as the tiny animated objects which should have posed no threat sytematically used the house against us to plunge us into a nightmare from which there was no waking. It was like fighting tuckers kobolds, if they could shapeshift into pots and pans and vases and books and hide in a trapped mansion. Our suffering knew no end.
The experience was so traumatic, we barely talk about it, and our DM has never done anything like that to us since. It was Tomb of Horrors style brutality visited on us by a true sadist... I'm still creeped out by candelabras.

So all in all, I highly recomend it. :smallsmile:

Swooper
2008-10-16, 07:52 PM
No experience, but I'm dying to try it on my players one day. I'll let them gain a few levels first, wouldn't want to send a group of less than 8th level in there :smallamused:

In fact, I just contacted some of them to arrange a 1-shot dungeoncrawl soon... This will be fun...

chiasaur11
2008-10-16, 08:09 PM
Just be sure to have them say "Bow Chicka Wow Wow" at the slightest hint of a double entendre.

Suzuro
2008-10-16, 08:12 PM
...what is Tucker's Goblins..?


-Suzuro

EvilElitest
2008-10-16, 08:12 PM
my are really nasty trap guys, but if worst comes to worst, the elderly are willing to become sucied bombers
from
EE

NecroRebel
2008-10-16, 08:18 PM
...what is Tucker's Goblins..?


-Suzuro

Tucker is the name of a DM that is somewhat-(in)famous for a dungeon he ran once, wherein the midlevel party was invading a kobold warren... And got owned, because the kobolds used brutally effective tactics, including murderholes so the kobolds could shoot the party without being vulnerable to counterattack, Small tunnels so the party could not pursue when the kobolds fled, hit-and-run tactics using said murderholes and tunnels, assorted traps that wouldn't trigger for kobold-weight creatures but would for larger intruders, pincer attacks, and perhaps most of all never ever letting up to let the adventurers have a rest. It got to the point where the party was relieved when they fell down a deep chasm into the deeper levels, which were inhabited by demons.

These kobolds are now referred to as Tucker's Kobolds, as are any other kobolds who use similar tactics. "Tucker's" is also applied to creatures of other races who use this style of base defense, so Tucker's Goblins would be, appropriately enough, goblins that are abnormally-tough due not to higher-than-normal personal strength but rather due to the strong defenses they have set up.

Cuddly
2008-10-16, 08:38 PM
somewhat-(in)famous

When you become a meme on the interweb's D&D boards, I think that qualifies for infamy, no longer modified by "somewhat".

archmage45
2008-10-17, 06:27 AM
Tucker is my hero.

Duke of URL
2008-10-17, 06:53 AM
...what is Tucker's Goblins..?


-Suzuro

I can't believe you got multiple response, and no links (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/).

Read, laugh, weep, and enjoy.

Irreverent Fool
2008-10-17, 07:01 AM
I have used Tucker's Kobolds and even some of the actual tricks they used. My players are afraid of kobolds now, and never EVER let a random kobold run away to sound the alarm.

They are less cautious around DRAGONS.

bosssmiley
2008-10-17, 07:17 AM
Primitive goblins armed with wasp nests in sacks. Big question marks over the players' heads, right up until the Goblins start throwing these things over their barricades at the PCs. Nothing ruins your day like a wasp swarm in the face, except possibly the wizard trying to burning hand them off you. :smallbiggrin:

Mr.Bookworm
2008-10-17, 07:22 AM
I have used Tucker's Kobolds and even some of the actual tricks they used. My players are afraid of kobolds now, and never EVER let a random kobold run away to sound the alarm.

They are less cautious around DRAGONS.

You know where you stand with a dragon. It's big, strong, breathes some variety of melt-your-face, and has treasure.

Tucker's Kobolds, though, are just vicious. A metric ton of smart, cunning little buggers in a specially prepared defensive position that takes full advantage of their strengths and the enemies weakness's? That's a nightmare.

Irreverent Fool
2008-10-17, 07:23 AM
You know where you stand with a dragon. It's big, strong, breathes some variety of melt-your-face, and has treasure.

Tucker's Kobolds, though, are just vicious. A metric ton of smart, cunning little buggers in a specially prepared defensive position that takes full advantage of their strengths and the enemies weakness's? That's a nightmare.

Oh and they don't have any worthwhile treasure because they gave it all to the dragon.

Ethdred
2008-10-17, 07:27 AM
I can't believe you got multiple response, and no links (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/).

Read, laugh, weep, and enjoy.


Of coourse, as has been pointed out before when this subject was raised, the thing to note about this example is that the party did not try to do anything to neutralise the threat - they just tried to run through it (not even run away). And even though they knew it was coming they didn't prepare for it.

Tucker was a wimp.

Mr.Bookworm
2008-10-17, 07:27 AM
Oh and they don't have any worthwhile treasure because they gave it all to the dragon.

You could...

Take their burning junk, I guess.

Might come in handy if you fight a White dragon.

Also, has anyone ever modifying the Tomb of Horrors and putting Tucker's Kobolds in them? That would be insane.

Irreverent Fool
2008-10-17, 07:30 AM
You could...

Take their burning junk, I guess.

Might come in handy if you fight a White dragon.

Also, has anyone ever modifying the Tomb of Horrors and putting Tucker's Kobolds in them? That would be insane.

Who do you think the invisible demons are?

Emperor Tippy
2008-10-17, 07:36 AM
YAlso, has anyone ever modifying the Tomb of Horrors and putting Tucker's Kobolds in them? That would be insane.

Never play a game DMed by one of the members of my RL group. Every baddie uses smart (Tucker like or better) tactics and every dungeon makes the ToH look like a cake walk. At least ToH doesn't drop a damn mountain on your head, or teleport you into the sun (or black holes)

Irreverent Fool
2008-10-17, 07:37 AM
Never play a game DMed by one of the members of my RL group. Every baddie uses smart (Tucker like or better) tactics and every dungeon makes the ToH look like a cake walk. At least ToH doesn't drop a damn mountain on your head, or teleport you into the sun (or black holes)

It really throws them off when enemies use choke points, cover, barred doors, and don't fight to the death, doesn't it?

Emperor Tippy
2008-10-17, 07:45 AM
It really throws them off when enemies use choke points, cover, barred doors, and don't fight to the death, doesn't it?

Those are the low level ones. Try strategically dropping ceilings, flooding passages, gas attacks, rooms that can only be passed through 1 at a time, illusions of water/walls/ceilings/floors/monsters, antimagic zones combined with all of the above, entire bases that are on fire (stupid red dragon and its fire immunity), and various other things.

Irreverent Fool
2008-10-17, 09:13 AM
Those are the low level ones. Try strategically dropping ceilings, flooding passages, gas attacks, rooms that can only be passed through 1 at a time, illusions of water/walls/ceilings/floors/monsters, antimagic zones combined with all of the above, entire bases that are on fire (stupid red dragon and its fire immunity), and various other things.

I've got a lovely Iceheart/Energy Transformation Field/Invisible water/Major Image/mechanical contraption trap just waiting for the next campaign I DM. Of course, the implications of such a thing include the creator being a devotee of Iborighu and a powerful spellcaster to boot, at which point they're just not Tucker's Kobolds any more.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-10-17, 09:24 AM
do any of you have experiance running or being run through a tucker style game/adventure?

I've always wanted to do some thing like this, but was unsure about how my pcs would handle it..

Talic
2008-10-17, 09:26 AM
I've set PC's up with ultimatums to BE Tucker's Kobolds, or face death to superior firepower. They rarely disappoint.

Eldariel
2008-10-17, 09:34 AM
If the players are not paranoid and tactically brilliant (with spellcasters! The optimal solution, or at least a key part of it, to basically every tactical problem tends to be "cast a few spells"), you'll probably have to tone it down a few notches. That said, every party needs to be reminded that the most creatures they fight are thinking beings too and most of them are just as intelligent as Humans, and it only takes one tactical genius to create hell. But throw it at the players. Chances are, they'll cope. That or they'll panic and die, but at least that'll teach them not to panic.

Your average Dragon isn't going to just engage the party out in the open and risk death. Likewise, entering a Dragon's lair, even if the Dragon itself is multiple CRs lower than the party level, is near certain death. Generally, fighting any creature/creatures on their terms should be something to remember. The end result (TPK, narrow escape or even narrow victory) is not important as long as the process is memorable.

Emperor Tippy
2008-10-17, 10:59 AM
do any of you have experiance running or being run through a tucker style game/adventure?

I've always wanted to do some thing like this, but was unsure about how my pcs would handle it..

I've run them and had them used against me. If the players are intelligent and think then they should generally be alright (assuming a winnable challenge in the first place), if they don't think then they will die quick.

I've found that players who play Shadowrun a lot tend to be better at this kind of thing (that whole game assumes that anyone who launches a frontal attack will die, painfully).

Epinephrine
2008-10-17, 12:20 PM
do any of you have experiance running or being run through a tucker style game/adventure?

I've always wanted to do some thing like this, but was unsure about how my pcs would handle it..

Yes, in fact there was a decent goblin-based version in a Dungeon magazine called Tallow's Deep. I remember it being fun.

Satyr
2008-10-17, 12:29 PM
I have never understand what is so special about these kobolds. I always assume that the PC's opposition wil use their ressources as good as possible and will literally fight for their lives when attacked by people who are bigger and meaner than themselves.
And I assume that the players try to come up with a suitable plan and don't try to charge without using their brains. If not, they shouldn't be surprised if they are outsmarted by their oppostion and will eventually be overcome by them, even when they ar only lowly goblins or kobolds.

Zeful
2008-10-17, 12:35 PM
I think it has more to do with the entire area being designed for small people to use freely, making the big people fight them on their turf.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-17, 12:42 PM
I have never understand what is so special about these kobolds. I always assume that the PC's opposition wil use their ressources as good as possible and will literally fight for their lives when attacked by people who are bigger and meaner than themselves.
And I assume that the players try to come up with a suitable plan and don't try to charge without using their brains. If not, they shouldn't be surprised if they are outsmarted by their oppostion and will eventually be overcome by them, even when they ar only lowly goblins or kobolds.

What's so special is that these kobolds are much, much tougher in the PCs vision than they could possibly be. It's a prime example of DM-induced terror, a psyche-out of the highest calibre. What's notable is not so much that these monsters are acting intelligently; rather, it's that the players are terrified of the kobolds.

Irreverent Fool
2008-10-17, 02:51 PM
Your average Dragon isn't going to just engage the party out in the open and risk death. Likewise, entering a Dragon's lair, even if the Dragon itself is multiple CRs lower than the party level, is near certain death.

While I agree that the second part should be true, adventurers are supposed to creep into dragon lairs and slay the beasts. Granted, any dragon worth it's salt should have multiple escape routes, traps, minions, etc but when you think about it, a creature's own lair is usually the best place to kill it -- assuming you compare things to the real world.

I got sidetracked. The thing I wanted to say is that I think "out in the open" is the best place in the world for a creature that can fly and shoot fire(ice/acid/lightning/etc) out of its face to fight!

EvilElitest
2008-10-17, 02:54 PM
Honestly, Tucker's Kobolds are generally what i'd expect from creatures like them in a D&D world
from
EE

Eldariel
2008-10-17, 04:06 PM
While I agree that the second part should be true, adventurers are supposed to creep into dragon lairs and slay the beasts. Granted, any dragon worth it's salt should have multiple escape routes, traps, minions, etc but when you think about it, a creature's own lair is usually the best place to kill it -- assuming you compare things to the real world.

I got sidetracked. The thing I wanted to say is that I think "out in the open" is the best place in the world for a creature that can fly and shoot fire(ice/acid/lightning/etc) out of its face to fight!

And when the said creature has Int 20+ and utmost certainty of the fact that people will come hunting for it, the comparison is pretty far off anything in our world (maybe military bases are the closest real world comparison - while nobody of such intellect exists, a hundred great minds can get within visual range).

arguskos
2008-10-17, 04:17 PM
You know, I read about Tucker's Kobolds, and I recalled that in the AD&D Adventure, Dragon Mountain, the kobolds there are listed as acting the same as Tucker's infamous kobolds. I've always run kobolds, orcs, goblins, and the like as being intelligent, but not overwhelmingly so, much like Tucker did (since I can think of a few ways his players could have dealt with the kobolds. It wasn't impossible, just hard), but I've noticed that the big deal with monsters like this isn't the monsters themselves or their tactics, it's that the players are often idiots. Really, who expects the home of the kobold tribe to be unguarded? REALLY?? Bah!

-argus

Kobold-Bard
2008-10-18, 03:58 PM
Not three days I sent my group into a challenge very similar to this. Difference is that I had never heard of Tucker until I saw this thread.

It really was satisfying watching them charge the half-dragon sorcerer to get away from the kobold archers.

EvilElitest
2008-10-18, 09:13 PM
You know, I read about Tucker's Kobolds, and I recalled that in the AD&D Adventure, Dragon Mountain, the kobolds there are listed as acting the same as Tucker's infamous kobolds. I've always run kobolds, orcs, goblins, and the like as being intelligent, but not overwhelmingly so, much like Tucker did (since I can think of a few ways his players could have dealt with the kobolds. It wasn't impossible, just hard), but I've noticed that the big deal with monsters like this isn't the monsters themselves or their tactics, it's that the players are often idiots. Really, who expects the home of the kobold tribe to be unguarded? REALLY?? Bah!

-argus

well i think all battle plans rely upon your enemy not being smart to a certain extent
from
EE

Triaxx
2008-10-19, 03:34 PM
I don't normally recall murder holes when designing a PC Hell. I usually use arrow slits and crossbow traps. The one man rooms are classic though, usually with a time delay trap at the other end, so that as two characters are in line, one entering, one leaving, a lightning bolt lances through the space. Then there are the actual enemies, who typically only show up once or twice and rarely have a stand and fight battle.

Except for the appearence of the Mad Kobold Sorceror, who claims his brilliance is the reason for the traps, and terrifyingly taunts the PC's until they chase him into an ambush. Or more crossbow traps. Or acid falls, most of them die. Then there are sections which are back trapped. Areas filled with archers or other impediments, but the first trap causes the ceiling behind them to fall, giving them no choice but to advance.

Lappy9000
2008-10-19, 03:56 PM
You could...

Take their burning junk, I guess.

Might come in handy if you fight a White dragon.

Also, has anyone ever modifying the Tomb of Horrors and putting Tucker's Kobolds in them? That would be insane.

Yes. AgentPaper is working on a 4e version in the homebrew section here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93978).

lord_khaine
2008-10-19, 04:44 PM
i must say i have allways thought Tucker's kobolds were overrated, they wasnt that smart again, they was just using smart tactics against stupid pc, who was not able to adapt from the clasic 10*10 room with a orc guarding a chest.

Ethdred
2008-10-19, 05:51 PM
<snippity>it's that the players are often idiots. Really, who expects the home of the kobold tribe to be unguarded? REALLY?? Bah!

You should have been at the table in the session I've just come home from. I spent ages thinking up ways of hurting the party given I knew they would be taking 20 on all search roles and such, but the real munchkin (or rather, the other one) wasn't there today. So party turn up to entrance to kobold lair (knowing it's full of kobolds and that it's one of my dungeons not a module) and the party scout (a VoP monk, don't ask) says "Well, I'll go ahead about 60'" and JUST WALKS IN!!!! No trap checking, not even a spot or listen check. Obviously falls straight into the pit right in front of the entrance, and things go downhill from there.

I enjoyed it though :)

Starbuck_II
2008-10-19, 06:19 PM
You should have been at the table in the session I've just come home from. I spent ages thinking up ways of hurting the party given I knew they would be taking 20 on all search roles and such, but the real munchkin (or rather, the other one) wasn't there today. So party turn up to entrance to kobold lair (knowing it's full of kobolds and that it's one of my dungeons not a module) and the party scout (a VoP monk, don't ask) says "Well, I'll go ahead about 60'" and JUST WALKS IN!!!! No trap checking, not even a spot or listen check. Obviously falls straight into the pit right in front of the entrance, and things go downhill from there.

I enjoyed it though :)

Munchkin is what way? Breaks rules or what?
The rest of the party sounds underpowered. I mean, VoP Monk?

afroakuma
2008-10-19, 08:03 PM
I run semi-Tucker goblins, non-Tucker orcs and bugbears and full-Tucker hobgoblins. The flavor has made my PCs reevaluate the threat of these races.

Ethdred
2008-10-20, 04:56 AM
Munchkin is what way? Breaks rules or what?
The rest of the party sounds underpowered. I mean, VoP Monk?

No, definitely doesn't break the rules - just knows them off by heart (well, until he got married!). Yeah, the party is a bit odd - munchkin is playing a druid with definite pretensions towards druidzilla, and we've got a pretty optimised archer, but the other choices are...interesting. Basically, I was able to let the optimisers run wild because I knew that the other players wouldn't be over-powered so it would all balance, and the players are good enough (and friendly enough) not to overshadow or leave people out. But it never occured to me that anyone would walk into a dungeon without checking for traps!

_Zoot_
2008-10-20, 05:34 AM
This sounds like alot of fun to DM or to play....

I like the idea of Tucker's Goblins more than Kobolds, but that just coz i love Goblins

only1doug
2008-10-20, 08:16 AM
i must say i have allways thought Tucker's kobolds were overrated, they wasnt that smart again, they was just using smart tactics against stupid pc, who was not able to adapt from the clasic 10*10 room with a orc guarding a chest.

I've got to agree, i read the tuckers kobolds post and thought how inept the players were and how Tucker must have been laughing his socks off at how silly his players were for just walking in without a plan.

L12 wizard yet he's incapable of preparing the 2 L2 spells that would of let the tanks kill the kobolds at their leisure.

Ethdred
2008-10-20, 09:18 AM
This sounds like alot of fun to DM or to play....

I like the idea of Tucker's Goblins more than Kobolds, but that just coz i love Goblins

All of the maligned humanoid races can be played in this way - in fact, should be. The only reason not to is that they then cease to be a reasonable challenge for anything under about 20th level. Where would we be without a dungeon full of hapless kobolds for 1st leve characters to beat up?

MeklorIlavator
2008-10-20, 09:34 AM
I've got to agree, i read the tuckers kobolds post and thought how inept the players were and how Tucker must have been laughing his socks off at how silly his players were for just walking in without a plan.

L12 wizard yet he's incapable of preparing the 2 L2 spells that would of let the tanks kill the kobolds at their leisure.

I believe that its 1st ed, so things might be a bit different. Also, I got the feeling that it was less that they had no plan and more that the plan fell apart in the battle.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-10-20, 09:44 AM
I believe that its 1st ed, so things might be a bit different. Also, I got the feeling that it was less that they had no plan and more that the plan fell apart in the battle.

It was second ed, could have been a mix of the two... and yes even if the wizard did have that memorized it would only last so long. and the Kobolds would prolly just poor boiling oil on the wizards head... or who ever the wizard cast it on.

Me and a few friends where discussing the tucker kobolds this weekend and weather or not you can do it effectively with 3.5. i said you could, although you would need to restrict some spells to make it more difficult.. then again attrition can be a bitch.

Man i need to design me a dungeon, tucker style...Where did i put that drawing board :)

Triaxx
2008-10-20, 02:05 PM
Even so, an application of web would have solved the problem of the kobolds running away.

AKA_Bait
2008-10-20, 02:09 PM
Even so, an application of web would have solved the problem of the kobolds running away.

Thinking back on it, assuming you could come up with some reasonable justification for it, I'd think that AMF areas (preferably permanent ones) would be a signifigant aspect of 3.5 Tuckers design.

Zenos
2008-10-20, 02:14 PM
I think the most important thing to do when running Tuckers is to keep the players on their heels, harry and chase them into well-prepared traps, if they manage to keep their minds cool and steady footing the Tucker strategy won't work nearly as well.

Dervag
2008-10-20, 02:35 PM
well i think all battle plans rely upon your enemy not being smart to a certain extent
from
EEOn the contrary. Many plans rely on the enemy acting 'smart' in a predictable way. It is predictable that when you shoot one member of an infantry platoon with a sniper, the rest will take cover and try to identify where the shot came from. That's the smart thing to do against the sniper- anything else you can do will probably get more people killed.

But it may be the first step in a disastrous defeat to do that if the sniper took the shot so that the platoon would be pinned in place while other forces maneuvered into position to cut them off.


i must say i have allways thought Tucker's kobolds were overrated, they wasnt that smart again, they was just using smart tactics against stupid pc, who was not able to adapt from the clasic 10*10 room with a orc guarding a chest.Which is kind of the purpose. They're supposed to be a refreshing change for DMs who are tired of creating 10x10 foot rooms with orcs guarding treasure chests, and a learning experience for the stupid PCs.

Yakk
2008-10-20, 02:43 PM
I thought orcs guarded a pie in a 10x10 room?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-20, 02:51 PM
I thought orcs guarded a pie in a 10x10 room?http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m126/stoopidtallkid/RPG%20motivational/Philosophy/cookie.jpg

chiasaur11
2008-10-20, 03:28 PM
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m126/stoopidtallkid/RPG%20motivational/Philosophy/cookie.jpg

Easier said than done.

That monster'll eat the cookie before even a timestopped wizard can get at it.

Then he'd eat the party.

Siegel
2008-10-20, 04:01 PM
I thought orcs guarded a pie in a 10x10 room?

Like this ?

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a92/Dakotahund/Motivators/199501056_ee28cbe207_o.jpg

Tengu_temp
2008-10-20, 04:47 PM
If a party above level 5-6 gets defeated by Tucker's Kobolds, then there's something wrong with their tactics - 1d8 bolts don't do much against Protection From Arrows and characters with huge AC and/or HP.

Siosilvar
2008-10-20, 04:54 PM
If a party above level 5-6 gets defeated by Tucker's Kobolds, then there's something wrong with their tactics - 1d8 bolts don't do much against Protection From Arrows and characters with huge AC and/or HP.

The Kobolds could easily have traps set up not to damage, but to delay, the party so that you can set them and everything around them on fire. Plus, the sheer amount of attacks would overwhelm them. Can you survive fighting 100 Kobolds until we can reinforce your position? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0417.html) And there are no reinforcements for the adventurers, and the Kobolds can quite easily escape and come back to harass the party when they try to escape whatever trap they have this time.

Raum
2008-10-20, 05:01 PM
I've got to agree, i read the tuckers kobolds post and thought how inept the players were and how Tucker must have been laughing his socks off at how silly his players were for just walking in without a plan.
Even so, an application of web would have solved the problem of the kobolds running away.It's not quite that easy a problem to solve. Tucker's Kobolds essentially have the advantages of terrain, preparation, and numbers. The PCs have the advantage of individual power. Any kobolds in sight probably end up dead. But when the kobolds are in smaller tunnels using hit and run tactics through murder holes and manually triggered traps it's difficult to see more than one or two at a time.

AoE spells end up getting wasted on one or two kobolds at a time...or are ineffective if they can't target inside the murder holes. Going in the smaller kobold tunnels to root them out becomes a near requirement. But that requires a spell (Reduce Person) which doesn't last long and is easily countered by any kobold casters. Without it you're fighting at a disadvantage.

Also remember the original Tucker's Kobolds was in a previous version where casters weren't as overpowering. Put all that together and it's easy to see why they'd be challenging.

Tengu_temp
2008-10-20, 05:13 PM
The Kobolds could easily have traps set up not to damage, but to delay, the party so that you can set them and everything around them on fire. Plus, the sheer amount of attacks would overwhelm them. Can you survive fighting 100 Kobolds until we can reinforce your position? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0417.html) And there are no reinforcements for the adventurers, and the Kobolds can quite easily escape and come back to harass the party when they try to escape whatever trap they have this time.

Normal fire is ignorable at this level, especially when you throw in several element-protecting spells. A single casting of Wind Wall renders the crossbow bolts completely ineffective. A level 6 melee guy should be able to make a hole in a typical stone wall in one, two rounds.

The kobolds are humped against a good party.

Triaxx
2008-10-20, 05:36 PM
I can justify anything. After all this is D&D, and if nothing else: A Wizard did it.

The way I play them is this: I can justify complex traps, because they'll go to the Dragon they are protecting and ask it to acquire/make a wand of lightning for the trap. Or inscribe an object with AMF. Any race smart enough to realize it needs these kinds of defenses, is smart enough to find allies, neutral parties or such to provide it with more sophisticated means of doing them, while not forgetting about non-magical methods which can't be eliminated by something so simple as an AMF.

Great design thought: Use nothing but magical traps to the edge of the first AMF. Once the party figures out that the AMF is blocking magic, they'll assume the traps aren't active, or simply non-existant. Replace with non-magical, and ambushes.

Better still, Hobgoblins with Kobold allies to take advantage of all viable tactics. Including hasted enemies, and Skull Traps, or even Delayed Blast Fireballs, combined with rock falls, crossbow traps, and Kobold traps.

Raum
2008-10-20, 05:54 PM
Normal fire is ignorable at this level, especially when you throw in several element-protecting spells. A single casting of Wind Wall renders the crossbow bolts completely ineffective. A level 6 melee guy should be able to make a hole in a typical stone wall in one, two rounds.

The kobolds are humped against a good party.What happens when the kobolds are firing from murder holes on both sides of the corridor? Add the ceiling and stabbing upwards from the floor for more complications. Even if your Wind Wall / Protection from Arrows works in corridor A, what are you going to do in corridor B twenty minutes later? You're going to burn through spells quickly. Then, when the melee type does break into the tunnel, they just retreat and cave the tunnel in on any followers.

They're certainly not unbeatable. But any PCs who think they aren't a threat simply because of individual power differences may end up in a world of hurt.

Ravens_cry
2008-10-20, 05:57 PM
You know, the point of Tuckers Kobalds wasn't to make kobolds scary, it was to make the point that SMART creatures, even relatively weak ones, can be a terror to a party that takes the 'hack and slay' route to victory. Try using different creatures. It is basically the lesson of 'force multipliers'.

Tengu_temp
2008-10-20, 05:59 PM
And I'm not saying they're ignorable - if the PCs act stupid, they might get hurt badly here. But if they have good tactics and/or builds, Tucker's Kobolds will just be a standard encounter, not the second Tarrasque some people seem to consider them to be.

chiasaur11
2008-10-20, 06:15 PM
And I'm not saying they're ignorable - if the PCs act stupid, they might get hurt badly here. But if they have good tactics and/or builds, Tucker's Kobolds will just be a standard encounter, not the second Tarrasque some people seem to consider them to be.

Well, considering how easily wizards beat big T...

Coidzor
2008-10-20, 06:17 PM
Any ideas about how to figure out how much resources a tribe of kobolds would have put into their lair, after say, first getting dug in (or, y'know, getting a rough map of what the area looks like if they're just being squatters)?

Because kobolds split off and form new tribes rather than butcher each other (generally), it seems to me that it would be only older, more established tribes that could have a lot of the fancier things.

So the question then becomes, how long do they have to be there before they get up to that level? How much time and effort does it take them to make their honeycomb of small-size tunnels that medium sized creatures can't get into in addition to the deathtrap tunnels/major work areas/caverns that the non-gnome/halfling PCs can actually enter?

Say a tribe's moved into the mountains south of starting town X about 12 years ago, so 2 full generations (I believe I've read that it takes 6 years until adulthood) have been born and raised to adult status thus bringing the tribe up from a rather small group of colonists to a "stable" population. What sort of deviousness would they have gotten up to in that time? What more deviousness could they get up to with another generation?

They have the resources and technology for creating, clearing, and resetting cave-in traps and other stone-based traps due to the mountains of rock they'd be digging into in the first place and the fact that the majority of their population are miners. It seems they're mainly limited by time/koboldpower (kobold hours) though, and the fact that they're not only creating tunnels to create a death-trap to lure adventurers or game (gotta eat) into.

Hmm... Stronghold builder's guide have any insights into this particular quandrary of how built up a lair might be over the passing years? Is that 3.5?

Any ideas about where to look for further inspiration as to how to use tucker's humanoids?

Ethdred
2008-10-21, 05:15 AM
And I'm not saying they're ignorable - if the PCs act stupid, they might get hurt badly here. But if they have good tactics and/or builds, Tucker's Kobolds will just be a standard encounter, not the second Tarrasque some people seem to consider them to be.

Obviously they'll come out better if they use good tactics - that's rather the point. But the kobolds won't be a standard encounter - even you think that they will be challenging for a level 7-8 party, and we're talking about CR1/6 monsters.

only1doug
2008-10-21, 05:48 AM
<snip>

Say a tribe's moved into the mountains south of starting town X about 12 years ago, so 2 full generations (I believe I've read that it takes 6 years until adulthood) have been born and raised to adult status thus bringing the tribe up from a rather small group of colonists to a "stable" population. What sort of deviousness would they have gotten up to in that time? What more deviousness could they get up to with another generation?
<snip>

6 years is young adult (teenager)
10+ years is adult.

Any creature properly GM'd can be a threat to a party with the wrong approach, Tuckers players could of solved their problems but didn't want to change their hack and slash tactics and plan how to deal with the kobolds.



The Kobolds could easily have traps set up not to damage, but to delay, the party so that you can set them and everything around them on fire. Plus, the sheer amount of attacks would overwhelm them. Can you survive fighting 100 Kobolds until we can reinforce your position? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0417.html) And there are no reinforcements for the adventurers, and the Kobolds can quite easily escape and come back to harass the party when they try to escape whatever trap they have this time.

the Kobold tactics of narrow hallways etc would never expose 100 at a time. could a L6+ party survive 6 (or 12 or 18) kobolds sniping at them for as long as it takes them to break down the door they just came through? yes easily.

could a ranged combatant return fire and kill some of the attackers?
probably.

once out of the kill zone could the players devise a new strategy to cope with the kobold tactics? yes.

Tuckers Kobolds isn't a bad strategy, its a good GM tool.
Its not an unusual strategy either, its the way most GMs i know run their monsters.

Ethdred
2008-10-21, 08:12 AM
6 years is young adult (teenager)
10+ years is adult.

the Kobold tactics of narrow hallways etc would never expose 100 at a time. could a L6+ party survive 6 (or 12 or 18) kobolds sniping at them for as long as it takes them to break down the door they just came through? yes easily.

could a ranged combatant return fire and kill some of the attackers?
probably.

once out of the kill zone could the players devise a new strategy to cope with the kobold tactics? yes.



But the point is there's more than one kill zone - the DM should never give the players time to regroup, let alone replan. Once they're in (and you keep them in with more than just a simple door) they go from one problem to another. I think this is one difficulty with running this sort of dungeon in 3.xE. People are so used to the four CR-appropriate encounter routine that they have difficulty visualising this sort of running encounter, where there are constant reinforcements, and the battlefield is the whole dungeon. Though it does mean you get full value from your time-limited buffs.

So no, the 100 kobolds wouldn't be attacking all at once. But if the ranged attacker does manage to kill one of the (very well protected) kobolds, then there's an instant replacement. And once the party break through that particular door, they find it just takes them into another killing zone, with more kobolds using different tactics and weapons.

only1doug
2008-10-21, 08:22 AM
But the point is there's more than one kill zone - the DM should never give the players time to regroup, let alone replan. Once they're in (and you keep them in with more than just a simple door) they go from one problem to another. I think this is one difficulty with running this sort of dungeon in 3.xE. People are so used to the four CR-appropriate encounter routine that they have difficulty visualising this sort of running encounter, where there are constant reinforcements, and the battlefield is the whole dungeon. Though it does mean you get full value from your time-limited buffs.

So no, the 100 kobolds wouldn't be attacking all at once. But if the ranged attacker does manage to kill one of the (very well protected) kobolds, then there's an instant replacement. And once the party break through that particular door, they find it just takes them into another killing zone, with more kobolds using different tactics and weapons.


GM: "as you explore the room you are suddenly ambushed by Kobolds and the ceiling of the corridor you entered by collapses."

Player 1: "hey! we checked that corridor for traps!"

Player 2: "how come we didn't get a spot check to notice the ambush!"


Player 3: "why don't you just arbitrarily make the ceiling of this room collapse too, then we can play something where our skills have some effect on the game!"

Lord_Gareth
2008-10-21, 09:51 AM
It depends on how you want to define a trap and how you want to look for it, Doug. The party walks through the front door, and before they start searching, the kobolds, say, slam down a concealed stone door from the cieling. The ambush starts right damned now and it doesn't let up; the idea is that the party does not have the time to plan, think, or even pray before the bolts and traps start flying.

That said, I've been in a campaign where the DM set the players as kobolds defending their lair. Things got rather sickening quickly; despite the fact that our tunnels were Medium-sized, everything else was up to us. Most of the power was, in fact, in the combination of several low-CR traps or tactics - nothing like an oil slick to send someone into a spike pit, or the flask of Alchemist's fire that follows.

It's quite possible for Tucker's Kobolds to work in 3.X/4.0, if the DM thinks tactically. Use manual-trigger traps, area-effect weapons, narrow corridors, captured monsters and whatever else strikes your fancy. You can keep the pressure up if you try.

(My favorite part - we moved the young silver dragon that ruled our town to an alternate lair, then collapsed his old lair on top of the adventurers sent in as the first wave without bothering to trigger any of our other traps.)

RagnaroksChosen
2008-10-21, 10:07 AM
GM: "as you explore the room you are suddenly ambushed by Kobolds and the ceiling of the corridor you entered by collapses."

Player 1: "hey! we checked that corridor for traps!"

Player 2: "how come we didn't get a spot check to notice the ambush!"


Player 3: "why don't you just arbitrarily make the ceiling of this room collapse too, then we can play something where our skills have some effect on the game!"



Question is just cuz they know there are murder holes doesn't mean there are kobolds behind them at the time... especially in a place that has murder holes all over the place. although i agree they should get at least a listen check...

Sorry for killing the sarcasm... I need more coffee.

only1doug
2008-10-21, 10:28 AM
It depends on how you want to define a trap and how you want to look for it, Doug. The party walks through the front door, and before they start searching, the kobolds, say, slam down a concealed stone door from the cieling. The ambush starts right damned now and it doesn't let up; the idea is that the party does not have the time to plan, think, or even pray before the bolts and traps start flying.

<snip>

the trouble is that this an example of how the kobolds will still be a threat to higher level characters.

Lets take my current party as an example. (i'll only do spell casting with spells I know are always readied).

(note: my GM is running spellpoint system which would effect number of spells able to be cast)

Door slams down, you are trapped, concealed archers open fire alchemists fire is thrown at you.

my character in following spoiler

Alvin Silvermaul
duskblade5 / wizard 1 / abjurant champion 5 / spellsword 1

+3 Adamantine Maul; AB +17; 1d10+6 (3d8+6 with greater mighty wallop)
AC:23 (32 with shield spell)


Me: cast reverse arrows as a swift action Target: me (abjuration spell, duration doubled, casting time reduced)
full attack action, stone door, 3 auto hits for 3d8+6, hardness is removed due to adamantine weapon.
Druid: cast mass protection from energy (fire)

each round i would cast reverse arrows on another ally and batter at the door some more. How long will it last?

even without buffs the kobolds will need near 20's to hit my AC, if they hit consistantly i'll swift cast shield to reduce the incoming.
so natural 20 needed to hit, damage is less than 10 points (unless they confirm crit with another natural 20) so reverse arrows causes arrow to hit firer (using same attack roll, ie natural 20)

Kobolds kill themselves and i break open door.

we could leave now and prepare for what we know is coming or slowly advance with rogue clearing traps and kobold archers killing themselves whenever they roll a 20.

Please note; I haven't created this character for this specific example, this is the character i play in my regular DnD game.

i didn't bother mentioning that the character has fire resistance 5 so wouldn't be bothered much by flame anyway, thats irrelevant when the druid keeps mass energy resistance memorised.

Doomsy
2008-10-21, 11:49 AM
And I'm not saying they're ignorable - if the PCs act stupid, they might get hurt badly here. But if they have good tactics and/or builds, Tucker's Kobolds will just be a standard encounter, not the second Tarrasque some people seem to consider them to be.

Scrubbed the post, 'twas stupid. Tuckers Kobolds seem more like a way to make an encounter more interesting then OMG DEATH, since technically most of the high level parties I've seen would do things to a tarresque that verge on the obscene in about ten seconds. It is not about being overpowering it is about making them fun and challenging at almost any level.

Tengu_temp
2008-10-21, 11:58 AM
So theoretically, playing an intelligent group of classed NPCs at the same levels as the PCs Tucker style should actually be the most brutal encounter possible, especially if they make intelligent use of cohorts, hirelings, magic, traps and fortifications?

At lower levels. Where casters get access to spells that can easily shape the battlefield or move the party around, the fight could as well take place on a flat arena.

Lord_Gareth
2008-10-21, 12:36 PM
@Doug: The simple solution is to scale the kobolds up a bit, scale up the traps, yada yada - basically, don't keep using level 1 kobolds against a level 12 party.

Colmarr
2008-10-22, 01:08 AM
@Doug: The simple solution is to scale the kobolds up a bit, scale up the traps, yada yada - basically, don't keep using level 1 kobolds against a level 12 party.

Actually, it's even easier than that.

The kobolds slow the party down long enough that spell durations expire and/or use a variety of damage types so that the party can't possibly be protected against them all. Even at level 1, kobolds would conceivably have access to:


pit traps, crushing traps, simple blade, spear and arrow traps
contact poison
alchemist fire
oil + flames
brown mould
swarms
low-level spells such as grease and backbiter, acid splash and magic missile

all of which can be used to make things a pain for adventurers.

The point of Tucker's Kobolds is not that they are unbeatable, but that they are much tougher than their CR/level would suggest.

horseboy
2008-10-22, 01:58 AM
I've found that players who play Shadowrun a lot tend to be better at this kind of thing (that whole game assumes that anyone who launches a frontal attack will die, painfully).This I very much agree with. You should see some of the crazy defenses players have come up with, and vice versa when I ran SR. Of course, that it's much higher lethality helps too. I think it helps teach the difference between "Infiltrate" and "Assault".

lord_khaine
2008-10-22, 03:54 AM
pit traps, crushing traps, simple blade, spear and arrow traps
contact poison
alchemist fire
oil + flames
brown mould
swarms
low-level spells such as grease and backbiter, acid splash and magic missile

but some of these things cost quite a bit of gold, so there should be a limit to how much of it they could actualy get their hands on.

Prustan
2008-10-22, 04:07 AM
but some of these things cost quite a bit of gold, so there should be a limit to how much of it they could actualy get their hands on.

Yes, but they're kobolds. They're not going to be buying the stuff from the local alchemist, they'll be stealing it, or making their own.

only1doug
2008-10-22, 04:17 AM
Actually, it's even easier than that.

The kobolds slow the party down long enough that spell durations expire and/or use a variety of damage types so that the party can't possibly be protected against them all. Even at level 1, kobolds would conceivably have access to:


pit traps, crushing traps, simple blade, spear and arrow traps
contact poison
alchemist fire
oil + flames
brown mould
swarms
low-level spells such as grease and backbiter, acid splash and magic missile

all of which can be used to make things a pain for adventurers.

The point of Tucker's Kobolds is not that they are unbeatable, but that they are much tougher than their CR/level would suggest.

and you will make them so by giving them CR inappropriate equipment.

I've proposed reasons why a group of prepared PC's has no reason to be scared of a group of Tuckers Kobolds (Low CR threat to a high CR party) and the general solution seems to be to equip them above their CR to nullify the PCs level based advantages.

Great, you've given them high CR traps so they can hurt the PC's how can you still call them a Low CR threat?


pit traps, crushing traps, simple blade, spear and arrow traps: easy reflex save to avoid unless raised above kobolds CR
contact poison: easy fortitude save unless CR raised
alchemist fire: yawn, fire damage
oil + flames: yawn, fire damage
brown mould: add extra monsters, increase CR of encounter
swarms: add extra monsters, increase CR of encounter
low-level spells such as grease and backbiter, acid splash and magic missile: Party has access to much more powerful versions of same spells, Kobold spellcasters won't last long.


Inconveniencing a high level party is a bad strategy in the long term for the Kobolds.

If my party needed to regularly pass through an area and it was occupied by a group of Tuckers Kobolds who insisted on inconveniencing us we would exterminate them.
Clear out the entire lair so they can't keep bothering us whenever we need to get by.

Smarter Kobolds would learn from the first encounter that the high level PC's should be avoided unless absolutely necessary (ie the PC are determined to enter the Kobold Lair without negotiating)

Coke_Can64
2008-10-22, 04:18 AM
but some of these things cost quite a bit of gold, so there should be a limit to how much of it they could actualy get their hands on.

Uh, we *are* talking about kobolds right? Why would they need gold to do anything?

Pit Traps: A hole in the ground covered with crossed branches and leaves peppered with dirt.

Crushing traps: A rock plate, slightly raised with a stick underneath connected to a rope. Rope passed under and into the wall, over and up to a suspended plate of rock on the roof holding back more rocks. 150lb+ adventurer steps on the plate, stick snaps, rope withdraws, rocks fall, everybody dies. (No puns here! :smallwink:)

(I could make the rest, but that'd take too long to think out :smalltongue:)

Edit: Wow, ninja'd by Prustan.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-22, 04:21 AM
and you will make them so by giving them CR inappropriate equipment.

I've proposed reasons why a group of prepared PC's has no reason to be scared of a group of Tuckers Kobolds (Low CR threat to a high CR party) and the general solution seems to be to equip them above their CR to nullify the PCs level based advantages.

Great, you've given them high CR traps so they can hurt the PC's how can you still call them a Low CR threat?


pit traps, crushing traps, simple blade, spear and arrow traps: easy reflex save to avoid unless raised above kobolds CR
contact poison: easy fortitude save unless CR raised
alchemist fire: yawn, fire damage
oil + flames: yawn, fire damage
brown mould: add extra monsters, increase CR of encounter
swarms: add extra monsters, increase CR of encounter
low-level spells such as grease and backbiter, acid splash and magic missile: Party has access to much more powerful versions of same spells, Kobold spellcasters won't last long.


Inconveniencing a high level party is a bad strategy in the long term for the Kobolds.

If my party needed to regularly pass through an area and it was occupied by a group of Tuckers Kobolds who insisted on inconveniencing us we would exterminate them.
Clear out the entire lair so they can't keep bothering us whenever we need to get by.

Smarter Kobolds would learn from the first encounter that the high level PC's should be avoided unless absolutely necessary (ie the PC are determined to enter the Kobold Lair without negotiating)Most of the time the Kobolds are Experts who crafted the stuff themselves. Like Summoning, it is considered part of their CR. And the GP expenditure is minimal, especially since they have the resources of a warren to draw on(most of the fodder facing the PCs spends maybe 20 GP on weapons, or they even craft those).

only1doug
2008-10-22, 05:18 AM
Most of the time the Kobolds are Experts who crafted the stuff themselves. Like Summoning, it is considered part of their CR. And the GP expenditure is minimal, especially since they have the resources of a warren to draw on(most of the fodder facing the PCs spends maybe 20 GP on weapons, or they even craft those).

but kobold crafted traps will have a low DC (rogue can find while taking a 10) and thus the players won't be affected.

Unless you increase the search DC to the point where it becomes a danger to the players in which case the low CR Kobolds couldn't of made it.

Ethdred
2008-10-22, 06:07 AM
pit traps, crushing traps, simple blade, spear and arrow traps: easy reflex save to avoid unless raised above kobolds CR
contact poison: easy fortitude save unless CR raised
alchemist fire: yawn, fire damage
oil + flames: yawn, fire damage
brown mould: add extra monsters, increase CR of encounter
swarms: add extra monsters, increase CR of encounter
low-level spells such as grease and backbiter, acid splash and magic missile: Party has access to much more powerful versions of same spells, Kobold spellcasters won't last long.
)

There are plenty of traps that don't need a Reflex save, and plenty of attacks that use a touch attack, so high AC is negated. Summoning swarms (or other monsters) does not increase the CR. And if you can't think of a way of setting an ambush that takes account of the party getting spot checks, then you obviously aren't a DM.

Also, from your description of how you'd tackle one encounter, it sounds like you're burning a heck of a lot of spells. On an encounter that is so far below your level you won't get XP for it. That sounds like inconvenience to me - especially if you are just passing through on the way to a bigger fight.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-22, 06:13 AM
but kobold crafted traps will have a low DC (rogue can find while taking a 10) and thus the players won't be affected.

Unless you increase the search DC to the point where it becomes a danger to the players in which case the low CR Kobolds couldn't of made it.Search requires a Full-Round action per square, and the Rogue can't take 10 due to Kobold fire. Many traps mentioned here would be rendered useless if the party had time to search.

Now, as for basic traps that have been mentioned here:The Shutting Door
DC 30 search check to find
Disable DC of 5
DC 10 if you are within 5' to step to the opposite side
CR of 1
Trigger type:Remote-activated by observing Kobolds, figure same cost as touch
No bypass
Requires repair

This simple trap hardly deserves the name. It is simply a steel door rigged to slam shut when a Kobold in the wall nearby presses a button causing a system of levers to collapse a heavy piece of stone behind those foolish enough to use the front door(the Kobolds use a passageway in the side of a mountain that would barely fit a housecat for everything except large loads, which are brought through the front and then immediatly passed through a secret door in the ceiling, avoiding all the other traps). It is CR 1 and costs 200 GP to make.
The Fall
Search DC 30
Disable Device DC 10
Reflex DC 20
Multiple Target
Repair reset
Location Trigger

The Kobolds immediately drop those foolish enough to enter, encouraging them to run ahead and slaughter themselves in the other traps. The fact that they don't get a chance to avoid the arrow ones they're dropped into helps, too. This particular setup works by using a small number of Kobold Archers(too small a number to waste a Fireball on) as bait, appearing to be guards who were caught by surprise, on the other side of the trap. Those enemies that make the save are still forced to head down, as their friends who stupidly charged ahead are being slaughtered and they can't retreat. CR 1, 100 GP.The Bath(2 separate traps with similar mechanics, damage type determined by specific trap)
Search DC 10
Disable Device DC 10
Reflex DC 10 for half
Damage 2d6
Liquid
Location trigger
Automatic reset
No bypass
CR 3, cost 300

Fire and Acid make these 2 traps especially scary, each dealing a pittance of damage, but forcing the adventurers to move or be quickly worn down. Due to the immediate reset, this trap quickly eats through any HP, especially as it does not care about most protections, and the different energy forces the enemy to consume more resources.3 basic traps, which in combination with a basic arrow trap at the base of the pit force a party to start moving quickly ahead, especially with arrows being launched from murder holes, dropping vials of acid, and similar assaults. None are deadly, but all feel deadly.

only1doug
2008-10-22, 06:59 AM
<snip>

Also, from your description of how you'd tackle one encounter, it sounds like you're burning a heck of a lot of spells. On an encounter that is so far below your level you won't get XP for it. That sounds like inconvenience to me - especially if you are just passing through on the way to a bigger fight.

In group where i play the PC mentioned we don't view anything as a minor encounter, every encounter is assumed to have the potential to kill us.

So far below our level that we would get no xp? why would the PCs make an assumption like that.
In your game perhaps the players assume that there are things so weak that they cannot hurt them but not in any that i've played in or run (yes run, i am an experienced GM regardless of your comments to the contrary).

If you treat every encounter like a viable threat then you don't need to quake in terror when they actually are.

throwing a heck of a lot of spells?

as i previously stated our GM runs a spellpoints system, my character has 20 duskblade spellpoints and 68 wizard spellpoints.
5 spellpoints to Greater Mighty Wallop my maul (1hr/lvl, cast at beggining of day) leaves 63
i cast 4 level 3 spells for 20 wizard spellpoints leaves 43
oh no, i burnt more than 1/4 of my wizard spellpoints!
big deal, i don't use them at all in CR appropriate encounters as i'm too busy walloping stuff for 3d8+6 while tanking.
as long as i have enough spellpoints to refresh my GMW and cast shield a few times i'm fine.
shield: 1 spellpoint for 22 mins

the druid has a 90+ spellpoints
Resist energy mass has a duration of 1hr/level, we often load it on against fire and sonic at the beginning of the day, just in case.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-10-22, 07:26 AM
In group where i play the PC mentioned we don't view anything as a minor encounter, every encounter is assumed to have the potential to kill us.

So far below our level that we would get no xp? why would the PCs make an assumption like that.
In your game perhaps the players assume that there are things so weak that they cannot hurt them but not in any that i've played in or run (yes run, i am an experienced GM regardless of your comments to the contrary).

If you treat every encounter like a viable threat then you don't need to quake in terror when they actually are.

throwing a heck of a lot of spells?

as i previously stated our GM runs a spellpoints system, my character has 20 duskblade spellpoints and 68 wizard spellpoints.
5 spellpoints to Greater Mighty Wallop my maul (1hr/lvl, cast at beggining of day) leaves 63
i cast 4 level 3 spells for 20 wizard spellpoints leaves 43
oh no, i burnt more than 1/4 of my wizard spellpoints!
big deal, i don't use them at all in CR appropriate encounters as i'm too busy walloping stuff for 3d8+6 while tanking.
as long as i have enough spellpoints to refresh my GMW and cast shield a few times i'm fine.
shield: 1 spellpoint for 22 mins

the druid has a 90+ spellpoints
Resist energy mass has a duration of 1hr/level, we often load it on against fire and sonic at the beginning of the day, just in case.


I think if you had an example of a non spell point encounter. As some people view that as having more power. I know they are supposed to be even but a few of the people I game with don't like it... And i have to agree for the sake of this argument i would keep Things like spell points, and flawed characters and things general not accepted as "normal" game out of it.

Especially spell points because it does added a level of flexibility to the spells you cast... it also takes away a level of resource management(which is what it was designed to do) that kinda Breaks this example and what we are talking about. Just like I'm sure gestaults would also break this example.


I've seen alot of pcs look at encounters as below them, which i can understand if you have a group of optimizers that play well together some encounters they have already delt with and won... orcs/kobalds/goblins and the like they go at with almost pompousness. Bad for them when you throw them against tuckers kobolds but meh.

Ethdred
2008-10-22, 08:37 AM
In group where i play the PC mentioned we don't view anything as a minor encounter, every encounter is assumed to have the potential to kill us.

So far below our level that we would get no xp? why would the PCs make an assumption like that.
In your game perhaps the players assume that there are things so weak that they cannot hurt them but not in any that i've played in or run (yes run, i am an experienced GM regardless of your comments to the contrary).

If you treat every encounter like a viable threat then you don't need to quake in terror when they actually are.

throwing a heck of a lot of spells?

as i previously stated our GM runs a spellpoints system, my character has 20 duskblade spellpoints and 68 wizard spellpoints.
5 spellpoints to Greater Mighty Wallop my maul (1hr/lvl, cast at beggining of day) leaves 63
i cast 4 level 3 spells for 20 wizard spellpoints leaves 43
oh no, i burnt more than 1/4 of my wizard spellpoints!
big deal, i don't use them at all in CR appropriate encounters as i'm too busy walloping stuff for 3d8+6 while tanking.
as long as i have enough spellpoints to refresh my GMW and cast shield a few times i'm fine.
shield: 1 spellpoint for 22 mins

the druid has a 90+ spellpoints
Resist energy mass has a duration of 1hr/level, we often load it on against fire and sonic at the beginning of the day, just in case.


You've got 1 wizard level and you get enough spellpoints to cast over a dozen third level spells? No wonder you don't think this is much of a problem. But as said, if you are playing the game in a non-standard way, you shouldn't be rubbishing people who aren't.

Also, I never said the PCs were assuming anything - the encounter IS too low for you to gain XP. Yes, as a player you can throw any amount of resources into it, but again, you shouldn't then wonder that it's a walkover. You should also be ready for the other encounters that day to be much harder as you won't be able to throw as many resources into them. By your own reckoning, you can only deal with three ambushes a day before running out of spellpoints.

only1doug
2008-10-22, 10:38 AM
You've got 1 wizard level and you get enough spellpoints to cast over a dozen third level spells? No wonder you don't think this is much of a problem. But as said, if you are playing the game in a non-standard way, you shouldn't be rubbishing people who aren't.


24 int, 7 levels of wizard casting, 1 level of wizard, caster level 11. Sorry if my Gish build scares you. (only 16 stregth though)

You won't want to know what a L12 sorcerer can manage in the way of spell output with the spellpoint system.

I'm not rubbishing anyone, any group that treats the encounter seriously can deal with it regardless of what system they are using. I gave the example of my current group because thats what I'm currently used to. (as i said originally).
I would throw up my buff because yes, i have the points to cast it. if i weren't in a spellpoint system i wouldn't use that buff and it would make almost no difference to the encounter (how many natural 20's are the kobolds realistically going to achieve? 5/100).
The spell that makes the biggest difference is the druids resist elements (mass) (a spell compendium spell) supposing you disallowed that too then we are left with the fact that both the rogue and i have innate fire resistance (rogue 10 pts, me 5 pts) if you rule that we wouldn't have that either then i suppose we might be in trouble (unless we bought items granting fire resistance).



Also, I never said the PCs were assuming anything - the encounter IS too low for you to gain XP. Yes, as a player you can throw any amount of resources into it, but again, you shouldn't then wonder that it's a walkover. You should also be ready for the other encounters that day to be much harder as you won't be able to throw as many resources into them. By your own reckoning, you can only deal with three ambushes a day before running out of spellpoints.

the first suprise encounter should be the only one the kobolds get, after that the PCs should be expecting ambushes.
Given Multiple Kobold Ambushes my Party would focus on eliminating the Kobold threat instead of progressing the mission. (oh, we were supposed to be in a hurry? why are we walking there then?)
two or three days of focus from the party would be enough to wipe out the entire kobold lair.
Sure we'd be skipping the level appropriate encounters to wipe out a nuisance, thats a better response than tuckers group managed.

As i stated i don't use spells during CR appropriate encounters, i'm too busy tanking. spells are for buffs when we have a chance if appropriate (i chose buffs instead of offensive spells so i can have a support/defense role instead of being a nuker).

In my opinion if the GM adds enough cheese to an encounter to make it a threat to a High level party then he should admit to himself that he is doing so. If your Players are facing a valid threat then they are entitled to XP for defeating it.
If you create a threat that the PCs cannot defeat then you are risking walkout from players. "you TPK'd us with an encounter we couldn't win and wouldn't get xp for? why bother using kobolds, rocks are cheap enough"

AKA_Bait
2008-10-22, 11:14 AM
24 int, 7 levels of wizard casting, 1 level of wizard, caster level 11. Sorry if my Gish build scares you. (only 16 stregth though)

You won't want to know what a L12 sorcerer can manage in the way of spell output with the spellpoint system.

Ok, I'm slightly confused. Do you have a joint pool of spellpoints for both your wizard and duskblade spells? Given the spell points, do you need to prepare your wizard spells (i.e. lock up those points into specific spells at the beginning of the day?). If yes to the first and no to the second then you have a much, much more flexible and powerful character than an average gish of your level.


The spell that makes the biggest difference is the druids resist elements (mass) (a spell compendium spell) supposing you disallowed that

Or the kobolds got hip to fire not working and starting throwing vials of acid and lining the floors with caltrops.


too then we are left with the fact that both the rogue and i have innate fire resistance (rogue 10 pts, me 5 pts)

How did you get that by the way. I don't know too many characters with innate resistances to things.


the first suprise encounter should be the only one the kobolds get, after that the PCs should be expecting ambushes.

Ok, heres the thing: There is only one encounter. The attacks don't stop. If the rogue disables the collapsing cieling then kobolds attack through the walls as other kobolds try and sneak over to where the mechanisim was and fix it. There's no second encounter. It's one long encounter.


two or three days of focus from the party would be enough to wipe out the entire kobold lair.

You expect to be able to rest where exactly?


In my opinion if the GM adds enough cheese to an encounter to make it a threat to a High level party then he should admit to himself that he is doing so. If your Players are facing a valid threat then they are entitled to XP for defeating it.

Well, Tuckers is an example of how you can make threats to higher level parties using lower level creatures. I.E. how you can keep those creatures interesting and in the game world despite the fact that the players have leveled a bunch of times. In a situation like this, the players should get exp at the end. The point is that normally, fighting a bunch of creatures of this CR they wouldn't.

Triaxx
2008-10-22, 12:27 PM
A Level 12 Sorceror on a spellpoint system doesn't bother with the caverns, he just knocks the mountain down. :smallbiggrin:

Something that's not being clearly illustrated is this: The kobold's aren't coming out and harassing you. They are harrassing you while you're tromping through their lair, presumably while you're on your way to other parts of the dungeon crawl.

only1doug
2008-10-22, 02:05 PM
Ok, I'm slightly confused. Do you have a joint pool of spellpoints for both your wizard and duskblade spells? Given the spell points, do you need to prepare your wizard spells (i.e. lock up those points into specific spells at the beginning of the day?). If yes to the first and no to the second then you have a much, much more flexible and powerful character than an average gish of your level.

No to the first; I have seperate pools for duskblade spells and wizard spells

sort of no to the second; I have to learn spells each day, to fill the wizards spells by level from the wizard table (no bonus spell slots from high intelligence, you get extra points instead) but during the day I can cast any combination of spells.

Full Spellpoint variant rules.

Any magic user in the spellpoint system could be considered more powerful than an average spellcaster.
(http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm)

Or the kobolds got hip to fire not working and starting throwing vials of acid and lining the floors with caltrops.

Acid resistance is as easy to cast as fire resistance, and is again covered by innate's


How did you get that by the way. I don't know too many characters with innate resistances to things.
well the rogue is a Tiefling and has some kind of paragon ability that increased his resistance further.
I'm have the Dragonscale husk alternate class feature (exchanged for duskblade heavy armour proficiency) granting me resistance 5 to all elements except sonic (and 7 AC)


Ok, heres the thing: There is only one encounter. The attacks don't stop. If the rogue disables the collapsing cieling then kobolds attack through the walls as other kobolds try and sneak over to where the mechanisim was and fix it. There's no second encounter. It's one long encounter.

It would of been, if i hadn't broken down the door and left already.



You expect to be able to rest where exactly?
Outside, with standard watches.




Well, Tuckers is an example of how you can make threats to higher level parties using lower level creatures. I.E. how you can keep those creatures interesting and in the game world despite the fact that the players have leveled a bunch of times. In a situation like this, the players should get exp at the end. The point is that normally, fighting a bunch of creatures of this CR they wouldn't.

The way the majority of this thread has read to me has seemed to be something that isn't worth xp can kill you.

I treat all threats as potentially fatal, partly because my GM also uses the WP and Vitality points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm) variant which makes anything that can critical against you a very big danger.

lord_khaine
2008-10-22, 02:24 PM
Originally Posted by AKA_Bait
Or the kobolds got hip to fire not working and starting throwing vials of acid and lining the floors with caltrops.

Acid resistance is as easy to cast as fire resistance, and is again covered by innate's

also, its not like acid is cheap, and usualy if a kobold gets into position to throw someof the stuff at a pc, then he will also be in position to return the favor with a few arrows.


Originally Posted by AKA_Bait
Ok, heres the thing: There is only one encounter. The attacks don't stop. If the rogue disables the collapsing cieling then kobolds attack through the walls as other kobolds try and sneak over to where the mechanisim was and fix it. There's no second encounter. It's one long encounter.

It would of been, if i hadn't broken down the door and left already
and its not like its easy to make a celling collapse either, it would take a awfull lot of work to make sure the pc could not withdraw, and it would be the worst mistake the kobolds could make, as it would force whoever got captured to actualy stay and fight to the bitter end.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AKA_Bait
You expect to be able to rest where exactly?

Outside, with standard watches.

yeah, and if the kobolds actualy try and follow them outside, then they would suddenly risk being caught in the open.

in the end, i do belive a lot of people overestimate how much enginering a bunch of small humanoids can actualy manage, while also gathering food and defending themself.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-10-22, 02:37 PM
also, its not like acid is cheap, and usualy if a kobold gets into position to throw someof the stuff at a pc, then he will also be in position to return the favor with a few arrows.


and its not like its easy to make a celling collapse either, it would take a awfull lot of work to make sure the pc could not withdraw, and it would be the worst mistake the kobolds could make, as it would force whoever got captured to actualy stay and fight to the bitter end.


yeah, and if the kobolds actualy try and follow them outside, then they would suddenly risk being caught in the open.

in the end, i do belive a lot of people overestimate how much enginering a bunch of small humanoids can actualy manage, while also gathering food and defending themself.

To your first point:
No thats the point of murder wholes shooting throwing with out risk or with close to no risk of return fire.
Theres a few ways i can think of to deliver a Alchemies fire without fear of return fire especially if i had the resources of a large warren.

And rigging a ceiling to fall in dnd isn't that hard its a CR 1 trap.. 2-3 Trapsmiths should be able to do it in less then a day. And its actualy usfull as you can heard or trap people in said hallways.

I agree with you people don't understand how much they can do... im sure its alot more then we can imagine.. as there pritty proficent miners/trapsmiths so i would imagine that an older warren would be well prepared. and or defended.


@ doug:

I think again you underestimating the spell point system it allows you alot of versitility. Where as a normal wizard duskblade you would only have so many low level spells to use. (especialy from your wizard side) that if said kobolds where to where you out or trap you it would be alot more difficult... so again your example fall short, as it seems you play in alot more powerful games then the average game... If you use examples from normal games not using UA alternate rule sets then I think people would more inclined to see what your saying.

AKA_Bait
2008-10-22, 02:37 PM
Acid resistance is as easy to cast as fire resistance, and is again covered by innate's

But costs resources to cast again.


well the rogue is a Tiefling and has some kind of paragon ability that increased his resistance further.
I'm have the Dragonscale husk alternate class feature (exchanged for duskblade heavy armour proficiency) granting me resistance 5 to all elements except sonic (and 7 AC)

So, unusal build features and variants not present in most games. Perhaps we should switch to an example closer to most 3.5 games?


It would of been, if i hadn't broken down the door and left already.

Outside, with standard watches.

Door? What door? A 3.5 tuckers-like scenario doesn't start 10ft inside the dungeon like it could in earlier editions. It starts 120 ft or more and 3 or 4 rooms inside the dungeon. They don't shut the door behind you, they collapse the tunnel behind and on you. You would need to dig your way out.

Now, in 3.5 you could probably just teleport out if you are high enough level. That's probably the most problematic aspect of a tuckers-like encounter in the 3.x systems. The teleport line can really mess up ambushes. Of course, the teleport line can really mess up pretty much anything in 3.5 unless the DM specifically plans against it.

That said, even if the party does just hightail it back out of the dungeon to avoid death and destruction, that doesn't mean they 'have no reason to be scared' of Tuckers Kobolds. It means that they are scared of Tuckers Kobolds and deliberatley retreating and proceeding cautiously to exterminate them (rather than doing whatever it was they actually came to the dungeon to do).


The way the majority of this thread has read to me has seemed to be something that isn't worth xp can kill you.

Honestly, it's not so much that the Kobolds themselves are what you get the exp for. It's the surviving and succeeding in the situation that you get the xp for. According to the table, yeah, you'd get nothing for the kobolds themselves.

Edit:


and its not like its easy to make a celling collapse either, it would take a awfull lot of work to make sure the pc could not withdraw, and it would be the worst mistake the kobolds could make, as it would force whoever got captured to actualy stay and fight to the bitter end.

Not if the cieling is designed to collapse. Causing a tunnel cave in really isn't that hard. It's only a bad strategy in the short term. If the Kobolds don't want anyone to know they are there, they are hiding and shifty little buggers, then they don't want anyone getting out alive and returing prepared with a bunch of friends. If that means 30 more kobolds bite it in the fight and they need to rebuild a bunch of tunnels, so be it. It's better than all of them being exterminated or having to relocate the entire warren.


in the end, i do belive a lot of people overestimate how much enginering a bunch of small humanoids can actualy manage, while also gathering food and defending themself.

Kobolds are explicitly designed and described as being crazy little trap making engineers. Lets not delve too deep into how they manage to feed themselves down in them there caves or we will have to ask that question about all of D&D ecology. Which unless you like the dungeonomicon is going to give you nightmares.

Doug Lampert
2008-10-22, 02:59 PM
While I agree that the second part should be true, adventurers are supposed to creep into dragon lairs and slay the beasts. Granted, any dragon worth it's salt should have multiple escape routes, traps, minions, etc but when you think about it, a creature's own lair is usually the best place to kill it -- assuming you compare things to the real world.

I got sidetracked. The thing I wanted to say is that I think "out in the open" is the best place in the world for a creature that can fly and shoot fire(ice/acid/lightning/etc) out of its face to fight!

3.0 and 3.5 Dragons could trivially hear or spot the characters coming. (Just look at the typical spot and listen bonuses... FAR more HD than CR and they normally maxed these two out.)

You aren't sneaking up on it without a silence spell and it STILL gets you when you get in blindsight range.

They had longer range senses, of just about every kind then just about any party could (absurd range blindsight, longer darkvision than anything else in the entire monster manual, double range normal vision, quadruple range low-light vision).

They had movement that dwarfed that of most parties', the only way to keep up was teleport or dimension door.

Outdoors by all means. Especially on a dark night. At equal CR you should be able to manage a TPK pretty well every time. With the longer ranged line breath weapons you may well be able to manage it without EVER giving them a reasonable shot back. Try to see if you can loose zero HP. Remember that if you cast as a level 3 sorcerer that's many castings of shield and mage armor each day.

If they cast protective spells against your breath then just wait for them to go down (check that spellcraft score, the dragon does in fact know what they've cast and about how long it will last).

In a dungeon or your lair you can't manuever, you can't really hide, those senses are mostly wasted unless you're arranging multiple ambushes, you can't wait out short duration buffs, you can't fly out of range or behind cover to wait for your breath to recycle. Sure it's tempting to stand and fight and get in that standard attack with half a dozen weapons, but it's just not worth it unless you've got a wizard or archer cornered and are finishing him off before help can show up.

DougL

only1doug
2008-10-22, 03:25 PM
<snip>
@ doug:

I think again you underestimating the spell point system it allows you alot of versitility. Where as a normal wizard duskblade you would only have so many low level spells to use. (especialy from your wizard side) that if said kobolds where to where you out or trap you it would be alot more difficult... so again your example fall short, as it seems you play in alot more powerful games then the average game... If you use examples from normal games not using UA alternate rule sets then I think people would more inclined to see what your saying.

I'm not underestimating it, I understand that its more versatile. that said, I also know that the spells weren't the overriding factor.




So, unusal build features and variants not present in most games. Perhaps we should switch to an example closer to most 3.5 games?

i did explain in my example that i was using my current character because i am now more familiar with it than standard builds.




Door? What door? A 3.5 tuckers-like scenario doesn't start 10ft inside the dungeon like it could in earlier editions. It starts 120 ft or more and 3 or 4 rooms inside the dungeon. They don't shut the door behind you, they collapse the tunnel behind and on you. You would need to dig your way out.

This door: (being the specific example i was answering)

It depends on how you want to define a trap and how you want to look for it, Doug. The party walks through the front door, and before they start searching, the kobolds, say, slam down a concealed stone door from the cieling.


Now, in 3.5 you could probably just teleport out if you are high enough level. That's probably the most problematic aspect of a tuckers-like encounter in the 3.x systems. The teleport line can really mess up ambushes. Of course, the teleport line can really mess up pretty much anything in 3.5 unless the DM specifically plans against it.

Actually under our house rules you couldn't, because teleport doesn't work that easily (the GM doesn't like it) so you'd need a existing portal stone or time to make one (which is irrelevant as you don't want examples from variant houserules)


That said, even if the party does just hightail it back out of the dungeon to avoid death and destruction, that doesn't mean they 'have no reason to be scared' of Tuckers Kobolds. It means that they are scared of Tuckers Kobolds and deliberatley retreating and proceeding cautiously to exterminate them (rather than doing whatever it was they actually came to the dungeon to do).

As I've stated, our party is cautious of everything that could be a danger to them. we aren't scared of them, we know we are far more powerful than they are, that doesn't mean we'll ignore them.


Honestly, it's not so much that the Kobolds themselves are what you get the exp for. It's the surviving and succeeding in the situation that you get the xp for. According to the table, yeah, you'd get nothing for the kobolds themselves.

And our party would be quite likely to negotiate with the Kobolds and make treaties for safe passage (but be constantly on guard while accepting passage). Only if the Kobolds were unwilling to agree to allowing us to pass (or broke their treaty) would we exterminate them all.

Summary:


Can low CR creatures still be a threat? Yes, if the GM wants to make them so.

Should PC's be scared of them? No, but they should be cautious whenever they are in a dungeon and they shouldn't assume something is harmless just because it is individually easy to kill.

Is Doug ever going to stop arguing? Long term observation indicates that this outcome is unlikely.

AKA_Bait
2008-10-22, 03:46 PM
i did explain in my example that i was using my current character because i am now more familiar with it than standard builds.

Ok, but here's the thing, when one is attempting to make a general point about how well something would or would not work in a given gaming system, the examples they choose to use need to be typical of the system if they are to be useful. Your example, though familiar, is atypical of the system in at least 4 signifigant ways that have come up so far. It's therefore not a good example to support any general proposition about the viability of a Tuckers Kobolds like scenario in 3.5.


This door: (being the specific example i was answering)

Ok. Now, in my example, how does the party escape to rest and have just one surprise encounter with other encounters they are prepared for following rather than one extended encounter (other than teleporting out)?


As I've stated, our party is cautious of everything that could be a danger to them. we aren't scared of them, we know we are far more powerful than they are, that doesn't mean we'll ignore them.

To me that's just a sematic difference. If there is fear in your PC's hearts or not, their actions are cautious and treating these lowly Kobolds as a signifigant threat. The point of Tuckers Kobolds is to show that with the right set up even very low CR creatures can still be enough of a threat to be taken very, or more, seriously than enimies of equivalent CR to party level. Being cautious about them proves the point rather than undermines it. At best, if you maintain that they are cautious about everything, it doesn't effect the point, since they would act this way regardless of if the Kobolds were a real threat or not.


Can low CR creatures still be a threat? Yes, if the GM wants to make them so.

Agreed. Not only that, the GM can do it with tactics, rather than just adding additional wealth, HD, or class levels to the creatures.


Should PC's be scared of them? No, but they should be cautious whenever they are in a dungeon and they shouldn't assume something is harmless just because it is individually easy to kill.

If the PCs should be cautious, that's as good as being scared for all practical purposes.


Is Doug ever going to stop arguing? Long term observation indicates that this outcome is unlikely.


Same with Bait. :smallwink:

horseboy
2008-10-22, 11:45 PM
After going back and rereading the story, I gotta agree that it was a case of incompetent players. I mean, they knew they were there and took no precautions. They knew they were one of the most dangerous things in the dungeon and did nothing. They got what they deserved. Their best plan was "Run real fast and hope". Even if your just wanting to go through because you've got more pressing concerns lower instead of it just being a hack-it-up dungeon there's easy ways of dealing with them.
2nd edition? Okay, you go buy a dozen attack dogs, they've got a better THAC0, more hp (they were, what? 2 HD) and did d4 damage per bite. You cast stoneskin on the alpha. The first time they try that whole "shoot through a murder hole" the cleric either casts stone shape or the mage pulls out a scroll of rock to mud and opens up the hole. Release the alpha, stone skin makes him impervious to their arrows, they freak, you release the rest of the hounds, now they're busy trying to save the warren from Invincible canines that fit easily in their tunnels, and don't trigger their weight triggered traps. While they're busy with that you progress as normal. Want them dead? Well, that'd take a lot of cloudkill and gust of wind and Greek Fire projectors. Mmmm, Greek Fire projectors.

Doomsy
2008-10-23, 12:12 AM
Why would the Kobolds even make their warrens big enough for big people to enter if they were as smart as Tuckers should be? I mean, I just kind of realized that now. Besides unloading dirt and heavy cargo loads (which would be very narrow rat runs) you really would think that everything, including the doors and passages, would be...kobold sized, wouldn't you?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-23, 12:15 AM
Why would the Kobolds even make their warrens big enough for big people to enter if they were as smart as Tuckers should be? I mean, I just kind of realized that now.Supplies, primarily. They need to be able to move food and such, and that requires large tunnels. If they don't make the decoy tunnels large enough, the big people might find the real ones.

Raum
2008-10-23, 07:26 AM
Why would the Kobolds even make their warrens big enough for big people to enter if they were as smart as Tuckers should be? I mean, I just kind of realized that now. Besides unloading dirt and heavy cargo loads (which would be very narrow rat runs) you really would think that everything, including the doors and passages, would be...kobold sized, wouldn't you?That's part of the setup. Tucker's kobolds lived in and around a larger dungeon created and used by larger creatures. However the tunnels they created for murder holes, undermining floors, traps, living quarters, etc would be kobold sized. Which makes going after them very difficult.

Thane of Fife
2008-10-23, 08:05 AM
After going back and rereading the story, I gotta agree that it was a case of incompetent players. I mean, they knew they were there and took no precautions. They knew they were one of the most dangerous things in the dungeon and did nothing. They got what they deserved. Their best plan was "Run real fast and hope". Even if your just wanting to go through because you've got more pressing concerns lower instead of it just being a hack-it-up dungeon there's easy ways of dealing with them.
2nd edition? Okay, you go buy a dozen attack dogs, they've got a better THAC0, more hp (they were, what? 2 HD) and did d4 damage per bite. You cast stoneskin on the alpha. The first time they try that whole "shoot through a murder hole" the cleric either casts stone shape or the mage pulls out a scroll of rock to mud and opens up the hole. Release the alpha, stone skin makes him impervious to their arrows, they freak, you release the rest of the hounds, now they're busy trying to save the warren from Invincible canines that fit easily in their tunnels, and don't trigger their weight triggered traps. While they're busy with that you progress as normal. Want them dead? Well, that'd take a lot of cloudkill and gust of wind and Greek Fire projectors. Mmmm, Greek Fire projectors.

What level are these PCs? 10? That stoneskin protects the dog from 6-9 attacks. Not hits. Attacks. It's gone in one round, maybe two. And he's still taking damage from the attacks destroying his stoneskin if there's some sort of elemental damage attached. Stone shape is fairly futile - it takes a full round to cast, and any hits whatsoever during that round negate it.

Cloudkill's not a bad idea, though it will sink through any holes whatsoever.

Coplantor
2008-10-23, 09:35 AM
This is funny, because I was building a dungeon to defeat a group of high level characters using only kobolds (YES, I WANT THEM TO DIE). And last week I found about tucker's kobolds

AKA_Bait
2008-10-23, 10:47 AM
This is funny, because I was building a dungeon to defeat a group of high level characters using only kobolds (YES, I WANT THEM TO DIE). And last week I found about tucker's kobolds

Well, if you are actually planning to kill them, be sure to have some Kobolds with lots of spell casting class levels, Forbiddances and dimensional locks all over the lair, low number of charge Orb wands for the minions to be fired into AMFed rooms from the murder holes.

only1doug
2008-10-23, 12:51 PM
Well, if you are actually planning to kill them, be sure to have some Kobolds with lots of spell casting class levels, Forbiddances and dimensional locks all over the lair, low number of charge Orb wands for the minions to be fired into AMFed rooms from the murder holes.

don't forget to use Races of the Dragon for making your Kobold's ultra Uber.

there is a ritual that gives any Kobold with 100gp to spend a Spell like ability 1st level spell 1/day. and sorcerer kobolds can get a free level of sorcerer for a DC20 concentration check, 1000gp and a feat (which increases the spell like ability to 3/day)

Coplantor
2008-10-23, 12:52 PM
AMFed???
The dungeon as it is can easily handle a party of 5th level using only 2 lvl 1 warrior kobolds and 2 lvl 2 fighter kobolds.

And I want them to be in situations that they know that they are going to die soon, I WANT THEM TO SUFFER!

AKA_Bait
2008-10-23, 12:55 PM
AMFed???
The dungeon as it is can easily handle a party of 5th level using only 2 lvl 1 warrior kobolds and 2 lvl 2 fighter kobolds.

And I want them to be in situations that they know that they are going to die soon, I WANT THEM TO SUFFER!

I thought you said high level? High level means access to the teleport line and spells that autokill large numbers of things with low HD. AMF checks those issues.

Coplantor
2008-10-23, 01:00 PM
I was asking actually what AMF was. My head doesnt work with initials when it comes to D&D terms.

AKA_Bait
2008-10-23, 01:01 PM
I was asking actually what AMF was. My head doesnt work with initials when it comes to D&D terms.

Oh. Antimagic Field. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm)

Coplantor
2008-10-23, 01:06 PM
Great, now I feel like an idiot.

There was a trap that I wanted to test with this guys, but it is more useful against low or mid level characters.

In case you are one of my players just dont click on the spoiler tags!

do you think that locking the players in a room with the floor made entirely of metal that later activates "heat metal" untill they die is a good way to kill the guys? I like the slow death thing about it, but I know that there are hundreds of ways they can overcome the situation. You guys have any idea of how could I make such a trap more efficent?

AKA_Bait
2008-10-23, 01:32 PM
Great, now I feel like an idiot.

There was a trap that I wanted to test with this guys, but it is more useful against low or mid level characters.

In case you are one of my players just dont click on the spoiler tags!

do you think that locking the players in a room with the floor made entirely of metal that later activates "heat metal" untill they die is a good way to kill the guys? I like the slow death thing about it, but I know that there are hundreds of ways they can overcome the situation. You guys have any idea of how could I make such a trap more efficent?


Well...

Make the floor and the walls all adamantine. Heat up all the sufaces. Have there be a thin layer of liquid on the floor that is a liquefied inhailed poison. As the water and floor heat up, the liquid evaporates causing the PCs to need to make repeated saves against the poison every time they inhale.

As a note, that's still escapeable if the PCs are smart about it. Drop a forbiddance on it and it becomes less so. Drop an AMF (and use something else to heat the floor, like a room below full of coal that the Kobolds start stocking once the PCs enter) and it's a pretty solid deathtrap.

Coplantor
2008-10-23, 06:35 PM
Well...

Make the floor and the walls all adamantine. Heat up all the sufaces. Have there be a thin layer of liquid on the floor that is a liquefied inhailed poison. As the water and floor heat up, the liquid evaporates causing the PCs to need to make repeated saves against the poison every time they inhale.

As a note, that's still escapeable if the PCs are smart about it. Drop a forbiddance on it and it becomes less so. Drop an AMF (and use something else to heat the floor, like a room below full of coal that the Kobolds start stocking once the PCs enter) and it's a pretty solid deathtrap.


Loved it!
Also:
I thought this one for a party whose average level is five, the guys open a door that leads to a narrow corridor, in the middle of it there's a pit, between the pit and the party there are two kobolds, one holding a tower shield that covers the entire corridor and with enough feats and items to make him have an insanley high AC, behind him, another kobold throws grenade weapons towards the party, the wizard cannot use area spells because of the little space of the room so the fighter will probably go and attack the kobolds, they will slowly go back, "retreating" untill they are both about to fall to the pit, the fighter will probably try to push them down, and he will "succeed". The kobolds will actually jump into the pit, after that, a cage falls from above the fighter and thus trapping him. Small murder holes open anove him and kobolds start pouring oil above him, after a few seconds, the fighter will see kobolds aiming at him with flaming arrows, then, I take my camera and take a picture of the player's face when I tell him that he was burnt to death.

Prustan
2008-10-24, 04:48 AM
There is one fairly nasty trap I read for AD&D some years ago, but it only works on parties without access to Light or Darkvision. Fairly long, pitch black corridor with dips and rises at semi-regular intervals. Party must have light, or take damage from stumbling around in the dark, running into the walls, etc. Only problem is, the dips and rises have a couple of different gases that have collected. In the dips is a heavy gas, like carbon monoxide, so the party has to take a deep breath and run, or start suffocating. In the rises is a very flammable gas, so the party legs it through the carbon monoxide, only to have their torches catch the other gas on fire - BOOM!
By the way, my first spoiler tag :smallbiggrin:

Triaxx
2008-10-24, 11:03 AM
Coplanter:Just hope the Wizard isn't packing Lightning Bolt.

Coplantor
2008-10-24, 11:12 AM
Coplanter:Just hope the Wizard isn't packing Lightning Bolt.

Yeah, I need to take care of that. Any idea? Besides anti magic field?

New Idea: A room witha spikes on the roof, the guys fall into a pit with spikes on the floor. Once they touch the ground, the defenestration spell trap activates and sends them flying towards the spiked roof, then, gravity acts and the fall again into the pit. If the trap resets automatically then you have a beautiful cycle of death.

Triaxx
2008-10-24, 11:41 AM
In 2e, where the bolt's bounced, I'd have said a 5' tall wall of force. The Kobold can toss over it, Lightning bolt would bounce off. Now it'd just be stopped. If he's got DDoor he'll likely teleport past, and MM them in the back of the head.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-24, 12:41 PM
The other not-quite RAW option for dealing with LB is having the corridor with about an inch of saltwater in the bottom. Should at least worry the Wizard.