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Thurbane
2008-10-16, 08:36 PM
Hey all,

I was just wondering which classes do the best at adventuring "around the clock" (i.e. don't have [many] abilities that need to replenished daily).

Here's what I can think of so far:

Binder, Dragon Shaman, Dragonfire Adept, Fighter, Monk, Rogue, Scout, Swashbuckler, Warlock, Factotum, Ranger, Warblade, Swordsage, Crusader, Marshal, Totemist, ...

...I know some of these have dailies, but not generally as a primary ability. Also, I haven't included psionic or ToB classes, as I don't have those books.

Any thoughts? I know this was a big issue in 4E, that they wanted to get away from the so called "15 minute adventuring day".

Cheers - T

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-16, 08:39 PM
All ToB classes, none of the Psionic ones. In all honesty, casters last longer than most melee classes. Fighters have rest-based abilities too. They're called HP.

MeklorIlavator
2008-10-16, 08:39 PM
Warblade, Swordsage, and Crusader also fit the bill.

Staven
2008-10-16, 08:41 PM
As a rule, let's discount ToB classes. They're unbalanced and can destroy your face. However, I think the ranger, if played right, can go on for awhile.

Thurbane
2008-10-16, 08:42 PM
Fighters have rest-based abilities too. They're called HP.
True, but given the low cost of a CLW wand, and the Binder's and Dragon Shaman's abilities to continually heal, this isn't too hard to get around.

Thurbane
2008-10-16, 08:43 PM
As a rule, let's discount ToB classes. They're unbalanced and can destroy your face. However, I think the ranger, if played right, can go on for awhile.
Oh please, let's not go down that road, that topic has flame-war written all over it. :smallfrown:

JaxGaret
2008-10-16, 08:44 PM
Add Marshal to the list.

I think some of the MoI classes would count for this as well, I'm not too familiar with Incarnum.

EDIT: The Totemist seems to have no major daily abilities, so add that one to the list. The Incarnate and Soulborn both have daily abilities, but I'm not sure how important they are to the class.

Cuddly
2008-10-16, 08:45 PM
Fighters have rest-based abilities too. They're called HP.

Or a wand of heal light wounds. 750 gp for an average of 225 HP. Let the rogue UMD it.

MeklorIlavator
2008-10-16, 08:47 PM
You know, Paladins and Barbarians should probably be added to the list as well. Sure, rage and smite evil are limited per day but neither classes ability drops too far without those bieng present. If nothing else, they're still on par with the Monk. Also, does anyone know if the Marshal from the Minitures handbook has per day features?

Edit: also, Knights might fall into this category as well.

streakster
2008-10-16, 08:47 PM
As a rule, let's discount ToB classes. They're unbalanced and can destroy your face. However, I think the ranger, if played right, can go on for awhile.

No, see that's a druid. Or a Wizard, Artificer, Archivist, or cleric. ToB classes can't match any of those.

JaxGaret
2008-10-16, 08:51 PM
You know, Paladins and Barbarians should probably be added to the list as well. Sure, rage and smite evil are limited per day but neither classes ability drops too far without those bieng present. If nothing else, they're still on par with the Monk.

Paladins also get spells, and Lay On Hands, and other per-day or per-week abilities. I would leave them off the list.

I would leave off Barbarians as well, since a lot of their power comes from their Rages. It's definitely not a peripheral ability.


Also, does anyone know if the Marshal from the Minitures handbook has per day features?

It has one, but it is very minor.


Edit: also, Knights might fall into this category as well.

The Knight's Challenge, its main class feature, is only usable a certain number of times per day.

Jack_Simth
2008-10-16, 08:52 PM
Any thoughts? I know this was a big issue in 4E, that they wanted to get away from the so called "15 minute adventuring day".

Cheers - T
DMM(Persistent Spell) Cleric - when you're combining Vigor with Divine Favor, Divine Power, and Righteous Might, the only thing you need to worry about are anti-spell effects (Dispel Magic and it's Greater cousin, Antimagic fields, disjunction) and save-or-lose effects.

Eldariel
2008-10-16, 09:00 PM
No rest at all? Probably Crusader, Warlock, Dread Necromancer, Factotum and DFA. Swift Hunter is ok too as is Rogue, but they're quite reliant on items to keep themselves going (gl surviving without Wands of Healing). This is assuming that there's absolutely no rest of course - just 24/7 adventuring and combat ('cause if resting in perfectly secure places for few minutes local time counts, casters are back in business). Oh yeah. Make 'em Warforged. No rest. No mercy. No matter what.

Cuddly
2008-10-16, 09:02 PM
DMM(Persistent Spell) Cleric - when you're combining Vigor with Divine Favor, Divine Power, and Righteous Might, the only thing you need to worry about are anti-spell effects (Dispel Magic and it's Greater cousin, Antimagic fields, disjunction) and save-or-lose effects.

Reading up on psionics, I've found that dispel psionics would pretty much ruin your day at any level.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-16, 09:05 PM
Reading up on psionics, I've found that dispel psionics would pretty much ruin your day at any level.Clerics have massive ways of boosting CL, though. Makes it really hard to Dispel. That's the basis for the Cheater of Mystra, in fact.

SadisticFishing
2008-10-16, 09:11 PM
Who uses Cure Light Wounds anymore? Lesser Vigor is where it's at. 550 healing for 750gp.

Jack_Simth
2008-10-16, 09:13 PM
Clerics have massive ways of boosting CL, though. Makes it really hard to Dispel. That's the basis for the Cheater of Mystra, in fact.
Yes, but at level ten, a Psion can be putting out a +20 Dispel check.

Keld Denar
2008-10-16, 09:18 PM
My post on the best party thread

Human Bardsader tank
Dragonborn Mongrelfold DFA controller
Something Dragon Shaman support
Human Factotum (Chameleon?) everything else

The Bardsader technically wouldn't stop his IC song unless he lost consiousness or was otherwise impared, so the 4 songs he'd get per day would last quite a while. Near infinite ooc healing from the DS and Bardsader. Mega control with the DFA using Entangling Exhalation and the DFA's solid fog cloud invocation. And general support plus minor beats from the DS, especially if he's empowering the DFA's breath weapon with one of his auras.

Alternately, the DS could probably be swapped for a Binder, but I know little about the class.

JaxGaret
2008-10-16, 09:18 PM
Yes, but at level ten, a Psion can be putting out a +20 Dispel check.

Looking at Dispel Psionics (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dispelPsionics.htm), you seem to be dead on here.

Vortling
2008-10-16, 09:20 PM
Yes, but at level ten, a Psion can be putting out a +20 Dispel check.

This is of course assuming that psionics are in the game and that the DM will be targeting the cleric with said tactics. So seconded on the DMM persist cleric. Really, if the cleric is going the mass buff route instead of the replace the fighter route there'd be no real reason to smack them down like that.

Cuddly
2008-10-16, 09:24 PM
Yes, but at level ten, a Psion can be putting out a +20 Dispel check.

I think a level 5 psion with 3 HD from anything could get the same results. Overchannel and practiced manifester. Gives CL 8, and overchannel raises manifester level for dispel checks, as well as augmenting, by two, for CL 10.

JaxGaret
2008-10-16, 09:25 PM
This is of course assuming that psionics are in the game

And assuming that DMM is in the game.

Thurbane
2008-10-16, 09:30 PM
No, see that's a druid. Or a Wizard, Artificer, Archivist, or cleric. ToB classes can't match any of those.
Please, can we let this slide. ToB debates always tend to derail threads - let's just say some people love ToB, and some hate it. :smallwink:

...OK, I've updated the initial list with classes suggested here.

Eldariel
2008-10-16, 09:34 PM
Add Dread Necromancer. Seriously. Infinite (yes, infinite) self-healing and an Undead Army you can keep on healing (just make sure you don't lose more than you can raise and you're set). Sure, they're spellcasters, but that's not really their strong suite - what they are good at is maintaining a constant undead army and keeping them all in tiptop shape.

Ascension
2008-10-16, 09:35 PM
I would leave off Barbarians as well, since a lot of their power comes from their Rages. It's definitely not a peripheral ability.

Although still limited in Rages per day, a Warforged Barbarian doesn't get fatigued. With a good Con score and maybe Extend and/or Extra Rage it wouldn't be a problem.

Stupendous_Man
2008-10-16, 09:36 PM
And assuming that DMM is in the game.

Or, indeed, assuming the DM allows anything but commoners.

Cuddly
2008-10-16, 09:40 PM
Hellreaver from FC2 gets a healing/encounter ability. Which is pretty much infinite healing. Pretty easy class to get into from ranger, I think.

JaxGaret
2008-10-16, 09:42 PM
Or, indeed, assuming the DM allows anything but commoners.

Ha ha. My point was that you can't assume that DMM is going to be in the game, but Psionics is not.

Seriously though, the OP question was about classes, not builds. DMM Cleric is a build, not a class.


Add Dread Necromancer. Seriously. Infinite (yes, infinite) self-healing

Are you talking about a Necropolitan DN? They have to be Undead to get the infinite self-healing, no?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-16, 09:48 PM
Are you talking about a Necropolitan DN? They have to be Undead to get the infinite self-healing, no?There's also a feat that does it.

JaxGaret
2008-10-16, 09:49 PM
There's also a feat that does it.

Oh okay. What feat is it?

Temp.
2008-10-16, 09:55 PM
With Complete Psionic, add a level 4 Wilder to this list.


Enervation Endurance and Bestow Power: A beautiful thing.

Have your psicrystal deliver 4 pp to you at the cost of 3.

.1 pp net gain per casting, when accounting for enervation. It's not great, but with time out of combat you can restore all of it.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-16, 09:57 PM
Oh okay. What feat is it?Tomb-Tainted Soul. You're healed by neg energy and hurt by pos, like an undead. Libris Mortis, of course.

JaxGaret
2008-10-16, 10:00 PM
Tomb-Tainted Soul. You're healed by neg energy and hurt by pos, like an undead. Libris Mortis, of course.

Oh, right, duh. My system mastery of 3e is fading away like a leaf in the wind.

Jack_Simth
2008-10-16, 11:15 PM
Oh okay. What feat is it?
Tomb-tainted soul.

The Elemental Summoning reserve feat, combined with the Vampiric Weapon Property can also cover infinite out-of-combat healing (summon elemental, beat with vampiric weapon until summoning expires or the elemental is un-summoned the hard way; vampiric weapon property is a +2 equivalent that gives +1d6 bonus damage against living creatures... and that +1d6 is used to heal the attacker - actual healing, not temp hp).

There's a handful of other ways - certain Martial Stances from the Tome of Battle, DMM(Persistent Spell) Mass Lesser Vigor, and so on.

Bassikpoet
2008-10-16, 11:23 PM
Tomb-tainted soul.

The Elemental Summoning reserve feat, combined with the Vampiric Weapon Property can also cover infinite out-of-combat healing (summon elemental, beat with vampiric weapon until summoning expires or the elemental is un-summoned the hard way; vampiric weapon property is a +2 equivalent that gives +1d6 bonus damage against living creatures... and that +1d6 is used to heal the attacker - actual healing, not temp hp).


Is an elemental considered a living though? It seems to me that you are simply attacking animated elements.

I agree on the Dread necromancer. Wouldnt the warlock also be good at this? I mean, the whole point of the class was to make a spell-caster that could last a full day.

Collin152
2008-10-16, 11:29 PM
Is an elemental considered a living though? It seems to me that you are simply attacking animated elements.

I agree on the Dread necromancer. Wouldnt the warlock also be good at this? I mean, the whole point of the class was to make a spell-caster that could last a full day.

It has a constitution score.

The Glyphstone
2008-10-16, 11:33 PM
Is an elemental considered a living though? It seems to me that you are simply attacking animated elements.

I agree on the Dread necromancer. Wouldnt the warlock also be good at this? I mean, the whole point of the class was to make a spell-caster that could last a full day.

Warlocks can't really heal themselves though, unless they take Tomb-Tainted Soul and are high enough level to get Utterdark Blast. At that point, they're Dread Necromancers with unlimited offense as well as unlimited self-healing.

Jack_Simth
2008-10-16, 11:39 PM
Is an elemental considered a living though? It seems to me that you are simply attacking animated elements.
Most type entries don't specify that explicitly (Animal and Construct Types do, the Undead type entry sort-of specifies), however....

Unlike most other living creatures, an elemental does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an elemental is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an elemental. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection, to restore it to life.(Emphasis and Emphasis added) - underlined phrase implies that the Elemental is a member of the group "living creatures" (even though they don't eat, sleep, or breath; even though they're not subject to critical hits, poison, paralysis, et cetera). The bolded word is noteworthy due to consistency - the book uses "destroyed" when referring to running an undead or construct out of HP, but "killed" or "slain" when referring to running a living critter out of HP.

Additionally, Elementals have Constitution scores, and if you check the Nonability entry for Con:

Constitution: Any living creature has at least 1 point of Constitution. A creature with no Constitution has no body or no metabolism. It is immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless the effect works on objects or is harmless. The creature is also immune to ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain, and automatically fails Constitution checks. A creature with no Constitution cannot tire and thus can run indefinitely without tiring (unless the creature’s description says it cannot run).(Emphasis added).

Fizban
2008-10-17, 12:48 AM
Anyone third level and higher take Draconic Aura [Vigor] and grant fast healing 1 to everyone in 20' up to half max hp (faster if you're dragon blooded). Binders can bind Buer at 7th level, and heal 14 hp every 5 rounds, which you can use to top everyone off after they've hit half max.

If you make sure you always have the upper hand, ambushing and having the whole party go before the enemy, you could probably could get by with just half max hp: just make sure you win or cripple your foe on the first round. Following that, anyone not wholly dependant on daily abilities is golden: ToB, Warlock, Dragonfire Adept, Factotum, etc.

How exactly does that infinite pp combo work?

vrellum
2008-10-17, 01:17 AM
Fighters (or any class) with combat vigor has access to a bunch of healing, especially if you've got someway to summon weak opponents. So I'd say they should be on the list. Since this is a potential way to get around their limited use ability (HP).

Stupendous_Man
2008-10-17, 01:41 AM
Fighters (or any class) with combat vigor has access to a bunch of healing, especially if you've got someway to summon weak opponents. So I'd say they should be on the list. Since this is a potential way to get around their limited use ability (HP).

Spar with a party member.

Kurald Galain
2008-10-17, 02:56 AM
Also, despite being a caster, "Wizard with a bunch of Reserve Feats" could work quite well, assuming a party member is available to heal him on the off chance he gets hurt.

Jack_Simth
2008-10-17, 07:11 AM
Also, despite being a caster, "Wizard with a bunch of Reserve Feats" could work quite well, assuming a party member is available to heal him on the off chance he gets hurt.

I mentioned how to get around that, above - Elemental Summoning Reserve feat, and a weapon with the Vampiric property from the Magic Item Compendium (even if it is cruel to do that).

bosssmiley
2008-10-17, 09:27 AM
Fighters have rest-based abilities too. They're called HP.

:smallconfused:

Fair cop. You totally had me for a second there. :smallbiggrin:


As a rule, let's discount ToB classes. They're unbalanced and can destroy your face.

Comedy gold! :biggrin:


If you make sure you always have the upper hand, ambushing and having the whole party go before the enemy, you could probably could get by with just half max hp: just make sure you win or cripple your foe on the first round. Following that, anyone not wholly dependant on daily abilities is golden: ToB, Warlock, Dragonfire Adept, Factotum, etc.

Yes, but such ideal 'alpha strike from ambush and cripple in the surprise round' conditions give the maximum return for minimum expenditure of resources for all classes. Using these tactics means that anyone - per day ability-dependent or not - is 'golden'.

streakster
2008-10-17, 09:39 AM
Also, despite being a caster, "Wizard with a bunch of Reserve Feats" could work quite well, assuming a party member is available to heal him on the off chance he gets hurt.

Isn't there a Shapeshift Reserve Feat that can do some healing? I thought there was, but I'm not sure.

Kurald Galain
2008-10-17, 09:43 AM
I mentioned how to get around that, above - Elemental Summoning Reserve feat, and a weapon with the Vampiric property from the Magic Item Compendium (even if it is cruel to do that).

Wouldn't that cause the elemental to attack you? Even if you dismiss it the next round, it could still get an attack in, which kind of defeats the point.

Keld Denar
2008-10-17, 09:53 AM
Isn't there a Shapeshift Reserve Feat that can do some healing? I thought there was, but I'm not sure.

It grants temp hp equal to your CL for a number of rounds equal to your CL that you can refresh as a swift action. Thus, as long as you keep a polymorph subschool spell held back, and never get hit for more than your CL, you would technically have unlimited healing, but that's not a very realistic model.

streakster
2008-10-17, 10:00 AM
It grants temp hp equal to your CL for a number of rounds equal to your CL that you can refresh as a swift action. Thus, as long as you keep a polymorph subschool spell held back, and never get hit for more than your CL, you would technically have unlimited healing, but that's not a very realistic model.

Ah, thank you. I forgot what that did.

Glimbur
2008-10-17, 12:24 PM
An Incarnate can shape the Lifebond Vestments to be able to heal each person 1/hour. Said Incarnate takes half the damage healed. If they're level 16 the time restriction seems lifted because they can then bind it to their Heart Chakra. So, either use the Dragon Shaman to keep the Incarnate alive as everyone else is topped off at level 16+, or just take two Incarnates. Low levels, it's not as useful if time is an issue.

Jack_Simth
2008-10-17, 05:19 PM
Wouldn't that cause the elemental to attack you? Even if you dismiss it the next round, it could still get an attack in, which kind of defeats the point.
The feat says the summoning effect acts like a Summon Monster spell.
Per Summon Monster I (from which all the others inherit):


This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.
(Emphasis added)
Per RAW, it is lacking in the free will department; it's behavior is defined by the spell.

Chronos
2008-10-17, 06:02 PM
Alternately, the DS could probably be swapped for a Binder, but I know little about the class.Except at low levels, the binder is absolutely better than the dragon shaman: The binder's healing is unlimited, as opposed to just getting you up to half, and the binder's offensive options are better than the DS's. But you have to be at least level 5 before you can bind Buer (the healing vestige), and level 8 before you can bind two vestiges at once (since Buer pretty much doesn't do anything but healing).

And it's not really fair to say that "The fighter's HP are a limited resource", since HP are a limited resource for everyone. Either you have one character in the party who can do unlimited healing, in which case nobody's HP get worn down, or you don't have a healer, in which case anyone's HP can get worn down.