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View Full Version : [4e]Does this sound balanced to you?



Mauril Everleaf
2008-10-16, 09:45 PM
So in my current campaign, we have a player who is playing a doppleganger. The player has been pressuring the DM to let him take feats that allow the doppleganger to assume the natural abilities of whatever creature it takes the form of. He claims that if he were to take the form of a harpy, for example, that he should gain the ability to fly. My DM said that he shouldn't just get that for free, so the player asked if spending a feat would be worth it. Does that sound right to you? It really bothers me that for the cost of a single feat, this player can gain the abilities of any humanoid creature. Since the player isn't accepting that his doppleganger shouldn't be able to do this, what would be an acceptable cost for this ability?

Draco Dracul
2008-10-16, 09:51 PM
So in my current campaign, we have a player who is playing a doppleganger. The player has been pressuring the DM to let him take feats that allow the doppleganger to assume the natural abilities of whatever creature it takes the form of. He claims that if he were to take the form of a harpy, for example, that he should gain the ability to fly. My DM said that he shouldn't just get that for free, so the player asked if spending a feat would be worth it. Does that sound right to you? It really bothers me that for the cost of a single feat, this player can gain the abilities of any humanoid creature. Since the player isn't accepting that his doppleganger shouldn't be able to do this, what would be an acceptable cost for this ability?

General rule if there is a feat that there would never be a reason not to take, its overpowered. (Sorry about the double negitive)

Colmarr
2008-10-16, 09:54 PM
No, it's not balanced, and it is the specific reason why Polymorph was such a problem in 3.5e.

If I were inclined to allow it (I normally wouldn't be because I don't recall dopplegangers ever having this ability), I'd be inclined to approach it by way of racial substitute powers.

EG.


Harpy's visage
You adopy the form and features of the dreadful harpy.
Doppleganger racial substitute Utility X
Pre-requisite: Doppleganger
Minor action - Keywords: Polymorph, stance
Effect: Until the end of the encounter, you gain the movement speed and modes, vision, resist and vulnerabilities of a harpy. You lose any movement speed and modes, vision, resists and vulnerabilities of being a doppleganger. You may end the effect as a free action.
Special: This power may be taken by doppleganger characters of any class. If taken, it replaces the utility power that the character would normally be able to take at level X.

I would place the power at the first available "utility" level above the level at which harpies appear. Eg. If harpies are level 8 opponents, this would be a level 10 power.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-10-16, 09:56 PM
General rule if there is a feat that there would never be a reason not to take, its overpowered. (Sorry about the double negitive)

Restatement: if the power or feat is something that a character would always take, then it is presumed overpowered.

It will only be OK if you restrict it to assuming the forms & powers of a creature you have killed, until the end of the Encounter. Make it a Daily Power you can get via Racial Feat, like Elven Precision being added onto Elven Accuracy.

Otherwise you'll just have the Shapechanger Problem all over again. When you can have the powers of anything, you are all-powerful :smallamused:

FoE
2008-10-16, 09:59 PM
This is asking for trouble. It's practically begging for trouble. He'll start with a harpy and move on to something ludicrous, like a mind flayer's psychic abilities.

Zeful
2008-10-16, 10:01 PM
So in my current campaign, we have a player who is playing a doppleganger. The player has been pressuring the DM to let him take feats that allow the doppleganger to assume the natural abilities of whatever creature it takes the form of. He claims that if he were to take the form of a harpy, for example, that he should gain the ability to fly. My DM said that he shouldn't just get that for free, so the player asked if spending a feat would be worth it. Does that sound right to you? It really bothers me that for the cost of a single feat, this player can gain the abilities of any humanoid creature. Since the player isn't accepting that his doppleganger shouldn't be able to do this, what would be an acceptable cost for this ability?

The proper responce is; "So what if you turn into a creature with wings? You never learned to fly with them." So no I don't think it's balanced.

As high power replacement, sure but it should be limited. Fly is a 16th (or 10th) level utility and lasts a)until the encounter ends or b) five minutes pass. That makes for a good baseline.

Colmarr
2008-10-16, 10:04 PM
Fly is a 16th (or 10th) level utility and lasts a)until the encounter ends or b) five minutes pass. That makes for a good baseline.

Fly is also a racial power of Air Genasi that is available to them 1/encounter from level 1.

There is precedent for it at lower levels, but I agree with your general point that early access to fly needs to be carefully adjudicated.

Mauril Everleaf
2008-10-16, 10:09 PM
This is asking for trouble. It's practically begging for trouble. He'll start with a harpy and move on to something ludicrous, like a mind flayer's psychic abilities.

This was exactly the point I made. The gods of fate smiled on my when I randomly flipped open the Monster Manual to the mind flayer when I was trying to point out how broken this feat was.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-10-16, 10:09 PM
Fly is also a racial power of Air Genasi that is available to them 1/encounter from level 1.

There is precedent for it at lower levels, but I agree with your general point that early access to fly needs to be carefully adjudicated.

Really? Friggin' FR :smallmad:

Anyhow, the problem with the proposed power is that the Doppleganger doesn't just want to turn into Harpies... he wants to gain the "natural" powers of everything in the game, at will.

I think my "eat what you kill" suggestion is probably the "fairest" you could come with. But then again, I would :smallbiggrin:

Zeful
2008-10-16, 10:23 PM
Really? Friggin' FR :smallmad:

Anyhow, the problem with the proposed power is that the Doppleganger doesn't just want to turn into Harpies... he wants to gain the "natural" powers of everything in the game, at will.

I think my "eat what you kill" suggestion is probably the "fairest" you could come with. But then again, I would :smallbiggrin:

It's a good idea, but it should replace class powers and require you to be in the monster's form. No mind flayer psychic blast while a harpy.

erikun
2008-10-16, 10:35 PM
Are you talking about flying for 1 move action, or being able to fly all the time, anywhere?

The first, I see no issues with, and is something that an Air Gensai can do at level 1. The second is something that Wizards don't get until level 16, and even then, it's only for one encounter (and needs to be sustained).

Zeful has the right idea: just because you have a physical feature doesn't mean you are automatically fully capable of using it. For that matter, 4e Dopplegangers can't change into other creatures - they can only change their appearance.

If you insist on something acceptable, then how about:

Minor Flight [Doppelganger]
(encounter, move action) You sprout wings and may fly at your move speed. If you are not on solid ground at the end of your move, you fall.

Wing Growth [paragon, Doppelganger]
(daily, standard action) You shift into a form that allows wings. You gain flying 6 until the end of the encounter.

That should work, or be a start for ideas.

Asbestos
2008-10-16, 10:38 PM
Every instance of "Change Shape" in the MM states that it allows you to "take on the appearance of..." I think that's the key distinction here. It doesn't say "to become" or to "change into". Also, it notes that the creature "retains its statistics". If you can't increase your STR by changing from a 9 STR Doppleganger into the appearance of a muscle bound orc I don't see why you should be able to gain even greater abilities. But, if you want to allow the player to cheese things up, the substitution powers are probably the way to go.

Also, the air genasi power isn't really that nuts when you look at the other movement related racial powers. It allows you to fly 8 squares and then float to the ground if you don't end the move on a solid surface. I think that Eldarin teleporting is at least as nuts, same with Watersoul genasi shifting at their speed through anything that isn't a solid wall. The player in question doesn't seem like he'd be content with just flying a little bit, I think he wants to fly continually.

elf
2008-10-16, 10:44 PM
Has the DM tried pointing out that the Doppelganger merely assumes the appearance of the new form. It doesn't get new stats or abilities. It might have gills, but still breaths air. It might have wing like appendages, but not the hollow bone structure or the musculature to lift off. You could take a feat to *learn* a new ability. But not a feat to gain something you don't have.

Keep in mind that players can make a bluff check to see through your ruse. Imagine if you could fly and your flying along and someone makes their check, now what? Oops!

=)

elf
2008-10-16, 10:48 PM
Heh, there was only 1 reply when I started writing my reply and then I had to stop and put the kid in bed, return, finish reply, and there's 10 more people ahead of me. You're quick here!

Kurald Galain
2008-10-17, 03:23 AM
So in my current campaign, we have a player who is playing a doppleganger. The player has been pressuring the DM to let him take feats that allow the doppleganger to assume the natural abilities of whatever creature it takes the form of.

I think this is reasonable, with the following three restrictions:

(1) One feat gets you one ability (as long as you're in a form for which the ability makes sense). So if you want flying, waterbreathing, and darkvision, that's three feats.
(2) Each of those feats works once per day, and lasts until the end of the encounter when used.
(3) Some of these abilities, in particular flight, come as Paragon feats rather than Heroic feats.


So for instance,
Ocular shapeshift (heroic feat). Prereq: doppelganger. Once per day, when you take the form of a creature that has low-light vision, you gain low-light vision until the end of the encounter.
Gillshape (heroic feat). Prereq: doppelganger. Once per day, when you take the form of a creature that can breathe underwater, you can breathe underwater until the end of the encounter.
Metamorphic wings (paragon feat). Prereq: doppelganger. Once per day, when you take the form of a creature that has wings, you gain a fly speed of 5 until the end of the encounter.
Ethereal body (epic feat). Prereq: doppelganger. Once per day, when you take the form of a creature that's immaterial, you become immaterial until the end of the encounter.

Hal
2008-10-17, 05:55 AM
This could also be a racial paragon/epic tier. Make it a capstone ability to get those transformative powers. However, you maintain your own statistics (skills, BAB, saves, etc.) while in the transformed state.

ColdSepp
2008-10-17, 07:22 AM
Fly is also a racial power of Air Genasi that is available to them 1/encounter from level 1.

There is precedent for it at lower levels, but I agree with your general point that early access to fly needs to be carefully adjudicated.

It's a 1/Encounter action that lets them fly 8 squares instead of a standard move action. Fun, but hardly broken.

Jayabalard
2008-10-17, 08:16 AM
Rather than offering a blanket feat to gain any creature's abilities you could either:

Charge a feat for each specific creature; have the GM build the feats for each creature that the player wants, and set requirements for the feat; in this case, you should also lose most of your normal abilities when transformed... so basically you trade out all of your abilities for another set that isn't too unbalanced at the time that you can take it.
charge a feat for each specific ability that you want to gain while changed, and again, the GM should build these feats with requirements so that you can't pick up an overpowered ability (at least, not when that ability is still overpowered). So you could pick something like "doppleganger flight" and be able to fly in any form that has that as an appropriate ability, but that would be only ability that you gained.


In either case, the abilities should come with some sort of mitigating factor or weakness.

bosssmiley
2008-10-17, 08:44 AM
Can Doppelgangers even take the form of Harpies in 4E? I thought they were limited to humanoid forms. :smallconfused:

You might want to look at making the Doppelganger 'adopt form' into a paragon path though...

Totally Guy
2008-10-17, 08:46 AM
Before character creation it might be a good idea to set some predefined attribute prequisites to take the feat. Example of the harpy Dex: 15.

Edit: I saw that the character had already been created but it would look like bullying to set it arbitrarily for an existing character. Maybe this could be set by the attributes of the creature's monster manual entry.

Roderick_BR
2008-10-17, 09:40 AM
Say, are doppleganger even supposed to copy powers? Like, can they even copy non-standard humanoid forms? In games or mithology? What he wants is some super-powered shapeshifter, not someone that just copies appearance.
Like, he wants to be the Martian Manhunter (DC Comics), instead of Mistique (Marvel Comics) (even though she started to be able to copy physical atributes like claws, wings, and big muscles as of late)

DM Raven
2008-10-17, 12:14 PM
Shapeshifting abilities have been overpowered in just about ever D&D edition. The level 9 Wizard/Sorc spell, "Shapechange" in 3e was the most broken BS spell...I can't think of a more OP WIZARD spell off the top of my head. Druids wild shape was nerfed multiple times and it was still super OP...

So yes, to answer your question, one feat that gives a shapechanger all the abilities of the creature he changes into is superbroken.

Examples:
Toughness gives you +5hp per tier.

Shapechange Feat can give you water breathing, flight, firebreathing, poison attacks, disease attacks, and numerous other abilities...

Balanced? I think not...

Mando Knight
2008-10-17, 02:14 PM
Can Doppelgangers even take the form of Harpies in 4E? I thought they were limited to humanoid forms. :smallconfused:

You might want to look at making the Doppelganger 'adopt form' into a paragon path though...

Harpy: Medium fey humanoid

Doppelganger's Change Shape power: You can alter your physical form to take on the appearance of any Medium humanoid, including a unique individual.

So, yes, the Doppelgangers are limited to humanoid forms, but Harpies are humanoids, so a Doppelganger can take the form of a Harpy.

I think that when Doppelgangers get a proper write-up (PHB II, perhaps?), they'll get some kind of Paragon Path or Epic Destiny that lets them start Mega Manning. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MegaManning)

Artanis
2008-10-17, 03:30 PM
There's a reason why the MM has seperate sections for monsters and PC races, even when said PC races show up elsewhere in the MM as monsters. What the OP's player is asking for is that reason.


"You want a Harpy's powers when you turn into a Harpy? OK, fine, you get its powers. Now start rolling a new character, because your part-time Harpy just became an NPC."