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Leliel
2008-10-17, 02:04 PM
So, lets say you have a stick-up-the-ass paladin in your group.

He says he Lawful Good, but he seems like a particuarly dumb variation on Lawful Evil.

Leeroy Jenkins is his role model.

He kills people for breaking traffic laws.

The list goes on and on.

So, one day, you say "Enough is enough! If he won't leave, and he won't listen to the party's advice, I'm going to hoist him by his own petard!"

So, how would you make the paladin pay for his crimes against you, humanity, and anyone who happens to actually be Lawful Good in a fashion that is, frankly, his own fault?

Duke of URL
2008-10-17, 02:07 PM
Have him be arrested, tried for crimes against the common good (with a airtight legal case against him), and then sentenced to execution.

If he sees the light after that, find some way to stay the execution (maybe a quest in exchange for a reduced sentence). If not... well... character creation doesn't take that long.

Edit: If he's a Paladin and consistently acting against the common good -- you as the DM have the power to make him "fall". That would be less extreme, though perhaps not as satisfying.

Calinero
2008-10-17, 02:08 PM
Send him somewhere where a law exists that would require his own execution.

Keld Denar
2008-10-17, 02:09 PM
Giant castle explosion resulting in the separation of the paladins upper and lower body at around mid point. During his last breaths, a servent of the paladin's diety shows up and expresses extreme displeasure at the actions of the paladin.

[/MIKO]

The Faceless
2008-10-17, 02:17 PM
Have him meet a more reasonable (and more powerful) paladin who decides he needs to be redeemed for his crimes, and tries to explain how he's being a jerk. If he refuses to listen give him a taste of smite evil.

Or maybe have a whole town show up run by a person like him taken to its logical extreme of an iron fisted dystopia where the entire populace is afraid and depressed, even individual blade of grass have to be spaced exactly, and the leader is beginning to set in motion his plan to bring "Perfect order" to the entire world.

FoE
2008-10-17, 02:20 PM
Have a villain cast illusions (or do it yourself) to make nearby innocent villagers (double points for orphans) appear as demons. Make him aware of the monsters, then break the illusion when he's slaughtered a dozen of them. When the authorities arrive, make sure the rest of your party agrees they saw no illusions and the paladin just started going ax crazy.

sleepy
2008-10-17, 02:42 PM
Start having his whole field of vision show up with this vague red tint when he flicks on Detect Evil. Don't be obvious about it, but drop hints looking out through his own aura being the source of the subtle change.

If he doesn't get the point, nightmares of demons trying to tempt him start... that center around granting him power to "right wrongs" and "maintain order" in bloodyhanded fashion. Past scenes of overzealousness visited again with an "accept me into your heart and we will purge the world together!" vibe.

Then, if that's not enough, he falls.

Then, if that's not enough, a Grey Guard of inappropriately high challenge rating tracks him down, catches him alone, and pounds him into the dirt. If you're feeling generous, he wakes up in a temple being tended by a sad-faced cleric of his diety who informs him he can still be saved. If he's annoying that day, descibe his death in graphic detail.

EvilElitest
2008-10-17, 02:55 PM
well the paladin would most likely fall for being stupid actually...
from
EE

valadil
2008-10-17, 03:00 PM
Derail him. Put him in a big city where laws are constantly broken. He'll get overwhelmed and you'll be free to do as you please.

I had a similar situation come up a while ago when I was a rogue. Another player metagamed whenever I went looting and had his character always show up to stop me, regardless of how well I bluffed and snuck). He was playing some sort of Teifling so every time we went to a new town I went to confessional and talked about adventuring with this evil demon spawn. Working with him made me sick to my stomach, but I felt powerless to do anything about it. The church sent out paladins to hunt him down and while he dealt with them I got to loot.

hamishspence
2008-10-17, 03:05 PM
I kind of like response to a tyranny: Do exactly what they claim to want, in such a way as it will destroy them. And in a totally non-violent fashion.

However, paladin morality doesn't usually go that far. Book of exalted deeds, while stating that unselfish reasons are usually good reasons, doesn't go so far as to say: Any unselfish act is a good act.

Strictly, paladin should have fallen long ago: killing when killing is not justified is considered evil "Violence must be just, to be good" and killing for minor crimes, is not just.

Stupendous_Man
2008-10-17, 03:07 PM
Ozymandias the Archmage decides that jaywalking laws are for sissies and jaywalks just as the paladin rounds the corner...

PnP Fan
2008-10-17, 03:07 PM
Just to be clear, is it the player being a jerk, or is he playing the character as a jerk because the group finds that entertaining?

If it's your player being a jerk, then you need to have a talk with him away from the rest of the group. Explain to him that playing his character in that fashion is making the game "not fun" for others. Explain what his other options are to continue playing that character. If he insists on being a jerk, then you should consider not inviting him back to the game.

If the player just isn't very bright, and doesn't 'get it', keep explaining his options. This guy isn't your enemy, he's just kinda dim and doesn't mean any harm. (Though if he's irritating enough you may still have to pursue the option of revoking his invitation.)

If the character is designed to be a jerk, for the sake of comedy relief, or to create a story of reflection and enlightenment, then lots of the previous suggestions could work and potentially be entertaining.

Trying to beat a problem player over the head with an in-game clue stick, however, is generally a waste of your time and energy. Life is short, and you don't have to put up with disfunctional jerks.

EvilElitest
2008-10-17, 07:56 PM
the biggest thing about the paladin code is taht it needs to be made really really clear to the players for it to work
from
EE

JaxGaret
2008-10-17, 08:03 PM
Cast Planar Ally type spells often so that there are LG Outsiders around for most of his shenanigans.

Hilarity ensues.

Doomsy
2008-10-17, 09:05 PM
Cast Planar Ally type spells often so that there are LG Outsiders around for most of his shenanigans.

Hilarity ensues.

I endorse this opinion and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

I'd also suggest paladins from his own religion start intervening if he is giving them a bad name. They have a reputation to uphold and ax-crazy LAW FOR THE LAW GOD is not part of that.

JaxGaret
2008-10-17, 10:48 PM
I endorse this opinion and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Darn it all to heck, now I have to start a newsletter? Feh! :smallsmile:


LAW FOR THE LAW GOD

SMITING IS AS SMITING DOES

horseboy
2008-10-17, 11:38 PM
Leeroy Jenkins is his role model.

He kills people for breaking traffic laws.[/B]
Uh, no. That's Frank Castle, up on top of a building with a sniper rifle shooting litterbugs. You could have Spiderman come by and kick his ass. If it's an RP heavy game you can try the "little, humanizing side kick" shtick, or smack the player upside the head with your Official Tales of the Floating Vagabond Head Spanking Rubber Chicken.

Tengu_temp
2008-10-18, 08:00 AM
As the DM, or fellow player?

Demented
2008-10-18, 08:30 AM
- Put a "No Trespassing" sign in the middle of the road.

- Put a "Please wait to be seated" sign in an abandoned tavern.

- Pull the tags off all the mattresses.


...Oh, wrong kind of Lawful Stupid.

- Face him against a cave full of eggs that spawn creatures when destroyed.
- A room that causes everything within to detect as evil. Including solars.
- Have a Lawful Neutral character copy his every whim.
- Damsel in Distress mission. Surprise! She's an orc with bad breath. Gratefulness may vary.
- Some poor farmer is getting the cheese stolen from the mouse traps he lays out by thieves. Thieves that are apparently infinite in number, appearing once a day, no matter how many times you kill them.
- Another Paladin insists on doing the proper paperwork for every administration of punishment. "Please sign this liability waiver before smiting."
- Another Paladin is even more Lawful Good, and insists on capturing everyone alive and putting them on trial. (Warforged -> Robocop)
- Everything and everyone is Lawful Good and has no actual intention of doing you any harm.
- Diplomancy cheese. Can't very well fight that which has just pledged to serve you.

chiasaur11
2008-10-18, 11:18 AM
Uh, no. That's Frank Castle, up on top of a building with a sniper rifle shooting litterbugs. You could have Spiderman come by and kick his ass. If it's an RP heavy game you can try the "little, humanizing side kick" shtick, or smack the player upside the head with your Official Tales of the Floating Vagabond Head Spanking Rubber Chicken.

No, that's Frank Castle out of his gourd on crazy drugs.

Now that is bad. If the Punisher looks sane compared to you...

SadisticFishing
2008-10-18, 11:32 AM
He is not Lawful Stupid, he is Lawful Evil.

If this is 3.5, make him fall hard.

If it's 4e, have his church abandon him, and make it clear to the party that hanging out with him is a terrible idea.

Killing people for traffic laws is a pretty big sign that you're in Black Guard territory.

Tengu_temp
2008-10-18, 11:57 AM
If this is 3.5, make him fall hard.

If it's 4e, have his church abandon him, and make it clear to the party that hanging out with him is a terrible idea.


And in both cases, he should expect a visit from "friendly" members of his church and/or his god's divine servants.

Flickerdart
2008-10-18, 12:00 PM
Stick him with a Helm of Opposite Alignment and surprise him by making him CG and not CE as he would expect.

OracleofWuffing
2008-10-18, 09:11 PM
He kills people for breaking traffic laws.
How vast are the traffic laws in your world, and how easy would it be for someone to observe him breaking them?

FMArthur
2008-10-18, 09:33 PM
If his spot checks are poor, have him wait in a line for an extended period of time before noticing a "no loitering" sign that the lineup is obviously exempted from or ignoring. He'll either have to leave them be and hopefully realize that he can't be the iron fist of the law all of the time for no reason, or attack noncombatants.

Raging Gene Ray
2008-10-18, 11:23 PM
So, lets say you have a stick-up-the-ass paladin in your group.

I've said it many times before: Brambles (in the Spell Compendium). Or Wood Rot...or Wood Warp.

Oh wait, you want irony, not disgusting and painful...I'd go with Flickerdart's Helm of Opposite Alignment turning him CG.

Yahzi
2008-10-19, 11:47 AM
He kills people for breaking traffic laws.
So have a young, dishevelled, dirty man break a traffic law right in front of him - running through the street and causing a stagecoach to almost crash. Then, after he summarily executes the man, let them find a healing potion on the guy.

Later that day, they'll be talking to the local priest, who will tell them he needs more materials for potions.

"Why, just the other day I had a young fellow in here - a chimney sweep, hard-working sort of fellow - and his wife was having a difficult birth. Well, I couldn't get away - had my hands full here - so I gave him a healing potion to make sure she made it through OK. Expensive, yes, but sometimes you just get overwhelmed and need to dip into the spell-buffer, you know?

Come to think of it, I haven't heard from him... or his wife. Hey, you guys are going to be on that side of town - can you check in and see if it was a boy or a girl? I need to know whether to get the pink or the blue drapes out for the christening ceremony."


When they go to the house, they find three corpses and a hysterical mid-wife. As soon as she spots the paladin she screams,

"We need justice! Tom O'Brien was running home with a healing potion to save his wife and infant daughter's lives, and he was cruelly murdered in the street and robbed! The gods demand justice for the three that have died today. I charge you, as justice is your calling, to find the villain responsible and destroy him!"

Thoughtbot360
2008-10-19, 11:57 AM
well the paladin would most likely fall for being stupid actually...
from
EE

Actually, I'm positive that 99% of times that Paladins in the group act like *******s and derail the game is because they feel like they have too, just to be safe.

Safe from what? Why, Falling of course.

Falling from grace and losing their powers! Maybe even half of the times they accost people, its a form of projection, so the DM won't examine them too closely and reduce thier character to a featless fighter.

Tengu_temp
2008-10-19, 12:28 PM
Actually, I'm positive that 99% of times that Paladins in the group act like *******s and derail the game is because they feel like they have too, just to be safe.

Safe from what? Why, Falling of course.

Falling from grace and losing their powers! Maybe even half of the times they accost people, its a form of projection, so the DM won't examine them too closely and reduce thier character to a featless fighter.

I'd say that such situations don't happen when you have a mature group where the DM and Chaotic Stupid other players aren't constantly looking for ways to screw the paladin over.

Jayabalard
2008-10-19, 02:55 PM
Trying to beat a problem player over the head with an in-game clue stick, however, is generally a waste of your time and energy. Life is short, and you don't have to put up with disfunctional jerks.Yup, this, exactly.

You have an out of game problem; you're only going to make a bad situation worse if you try to fix an out of game problem using in-game methods.

Leliel
2008-10-19, 05:12 PM
To everyone: Yes, I realize that generally, one should try to talk it over out of the game.

This thread, however, is not at all serious, and thus, is not bound by the Golden Rule.

erikun
2008-10-19, 05:44 PM
The problem with Lawful Stupid is that they generally don't think beforehand, and they rarely think afterwards. Setting up a scenario where the Paladin's actions will cause him to fall (slaughtering innocents, BBEG protected by the law) will be met with accusations of "DM out to get me!" Which may be true, but the only thing worse than Lawful Stupid is Lawful Stupid whining about DM favortism.

On thing I have always loved doing: LN Cleric of St. Cuthbert/Helm/appropriate diety specialized in grappling and unarmed combat. Put him in a position of Lawful Stupid-bait (perhaps breaking into a storefront to catch a murderer?) and when the Paladin tries to attack, Mr. Grapplecleric pins him to the ground and shackles him up. Probably drags said Paladin in for questioning about "helping the murderer get away". The PCs won't be arrested for it, of course - heck, the cleric did break into a house - but the Lawful Stupid gets some rightful humbling and the party gets a new lead. The Paladin also gets a foil out of the deal, who I'm sure he'll love meeting later in the campaign.

Tengu_temp
2008-10-19, 06:34 PM
Ozymandias the Archmage decides that jaywalking laws are for sissies and jaywalks just as the paladin rounds the corner...

Even better - replace Ozymandias with the high priest of the paladin's order.

Starbuck_II
2008-10-19, 06:54 PM
To everyone: Yes, I realize that generally, one should try to talk it over out of the game.

This thread, however, is not at all serious, and thus, is not bound by the Golden Rule.

Golden rule: Always loot the bodies?

Thane of Fife
2008-10-19, 07:11 PM
Golden rule: Always loot the bodies?

Never split the party (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waa2ucfgVgQ), actually.

Saint Nil
2008-10-19, 08:10 PM
So have a young, dishevelled, dirty man break a traffic law right in front of him - running through the street and causing a stagecoach to almost crash. Then, after he summarily executes the man, let them find a healing potion on the guy.

Later that day, they'll be talking to the local priest, who will tell them he needs more materials for potions.

"Why, just the other day I had a young fellow in here - a chimney sweep, hard-working sort of fellow - and his wife was having a difficult birth. Well, I couldn't get away - had my hands full here - so I gave him a healing potion to make sure she made it through OK. Expensive, yes, but sometimes you just get overwhelmed and need to dip into the spell-buffer, you know?

Come to think of it, I haven't heard from him... or his wife. Hey, you guys are going to be on that side of town - can you check in and see if it was a boy or a girl? I need to know whether to get the pink or the blue drapes out for the christening ceremony."


When they go to the house, they find three corpses and a hysterical mid-wife. As soon as she spots the paladin she screams,

"We need justice! Tom O'Brien was running home with a healing potion to save his wife and infant daughter's lives, and he was cruelly murdered in the street and robbed! The gods demand justice for the three that have died today. I charge you, as justice is your calling, to find the villain responsible and destroy him!"

I'll have to try that sometime.:smallamused:

Also, just take the player to another room, and explain to him what he is doing isn't LG. If anything, throw in an NPC paladin to show him the error of his ways, or better yet, make them fight a blackguard that is just like him. That might knock a little sense into his head. Paladins have it hard enough as it is without what he's doing.

Raging Gene Ray
2008-10-19, 08:55 PM
Leeroy Jenkins is his role model.

I think that may be the main issue here. Leroy Jenkins is the embodiment of having mindless fun. Maybe the player plays his Paladin like this, not because he wants to play a Holy Enforcer of Morality, but because he just wants to kill things and take their stuff, like good old-fashioned Dungeon Crawling should be. If that's the reason behind it, then there really isn't a whole lot you can do.

If they're that kind of player, the most you could do is get them to play a Barbarian or a Fighter, or something more suited to that "I Smash Stuff Because It's Fun!" mindset.

Vexxation
2008-10-19, 08:57 PM
If they're that kind of player, the most you could do is get them to play a Barbarian or a Fighter, or something more suited to that "I Smash Stuff Because It's Fun!" mindset.

Or a Paladin of Slaughter/Tyranny.

He sounds like Tyranny. Unrealistic enforcement of traffic laws? Yeah. Tyranny.

Raging Gene Ray
2008-10-19, 09:30 PM
Or a Paladin of Slaughter/Tyranny.

He sounds like Tyranny. Unrealistic enforcement of traffic laws? Yeah. Tyranny.

No, if Leroy Jenkins is his role model he's definitely slaughter. Tyranny just sits there c'mon...please break a law...I wanna kill something...DAMMIT, he followed the law! Slaughter doesn't let itself be bogged down with that Garglemesh. Example:

:miko:: I, Miko Miyazaki, proclaim you, Shojo guilty of ME-STICKIN' MY SWORD IN YOU 'CUZ IT'S FUN!!! WOOOOOOOO!
Shojo: My kidneys! (Dies)
:roy:: WTF?
:miko:: You too, Baldy. YAY! WHEE! BLARG!!!
:roy:: My liver! (Dies)
Hinjo: Miko! Are you on drugs?
:miko:: I'm-a kill you too! SLICE! DICE! MAKE JULIENNE FRIES!
Hinjo: My spleen! (Falls helpless) Somebody, help!
:belkar:: I...I think I'm in love.
:miko:: Oh, really? (Puts on a belt of Gender-Bending)
He-ko: You got purty feet.
:belkar:: AAAAAHHH!! (Throws a dagger, hurting He-ko slightly but activating his MoJ. Falls Helpless)
He-ko: AH'M GONNA MAKE YOU SQUEAL LIKE A PIGGY!!!
Hinjo: Why haven't you fallen? Why, WHY??? (Dies)
:belkar:: Please, please...coup de gras me NOW!!!
He-ko: Shut up 'n tighten them cheeks, boy!

Here's a character concept: A Changeling Paladin of Slaughter who uses the Minor Change-Shape and some sort of way of hiding his alignment that impersonates LG Paladins in order to gain access to the Virtuous, the Helpless, and the Otherwise Fun-To-Stab.

Vexxation
2008-10-19, 09:35 PM
Here's a character concept: A Changeling Paladin of Slaughter who uses the Minor Change-Shape and some sort of way of hiding his alignment that impersonates LG Paladins in order to gain access to the Virtuous, the Helpless, and the Otherwise Fun-To-Stab.

It's beautiful.
Find a way to max ranks in Bluff. Maybe a level of Beguiler or Bard. Whatever. Then just lie your way into, say, an orphanage, bathe in the blood of orphans, and claim it was someone else who you have to chase after! Then use the "I'm chasing an orphan-killing psycho" to gain access to other buildings. I like it.

monty
2008-10-19, 11:28 PM
If they're that kind of player, the most you could do is get them to play a Barbarian or a Fighter, or something more suited to that "I Smash Stuff Because It's Fun!" mindset.

That would make such a good t-shirt.

horseboy
2008-10-20, 01:27 AM
I've said it many times before: Brambles (in the Spell Compendium). Or Wood Rot...or Wood Warp.

Oh wait, you want irony, not disgusting and painful...I'd go with Flickerdart's Helm of Opposite Alignment turning him CG.
Well, if you could threaten to REALLY shove a stick (http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp05042002.shtml) up there.