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View Full Version : [4e]So I found a save-or-die spell...



GWLlosa
2008-10-17, 02:45 PM
Remove Affliction. You get a penalty to the ritual equal to the level of the affliction on you. Our 6 man party had been afflicted, and attempted to remove it ourselves. On the ranger, we rolled a '1'. The result was death. I thought this kind of "your-life-hinges-on-a-single-roll" thing was supposed to go away with 4e?:smalleek:

Cuddly
2008-10-17, 02:50 PM
Remove Affliction. You get a penalty to the ritual equal to the level of the affliction on you. Our 6 man party had been afflicted, and attempted to remove it ourselves. On the ranger, we rolled a '1'. The result was death. I thought this kind of "your-life-hinges-on-a-single-roll" thing was supposed to go away with 4e?:smalleek:

You didn't have to remove it. There's a difference between choosing to make a stupid risk, and having it shoved down your brain stem by an irate psion.

fractic
2008-10-17, 02:53 PM
The only guy in your party who could cast rituals had a negative heal check at level 8?

Even with the penalty that means bad wis and no training. Sounds more like poor party planning.

GWLlosa
2008-10-17, 03:23 PM
The only guy in your party who could cast rituals had a negative heal check at level 8?

Even with the penalty that means bad wis and no training. Sounds more like poor party planning.

Actually, our heal check was pretty good (+15 or so). But this ritual gives you the LEVEL of the affliction as a PENALTY to the roll. Given that it was a level 18 or so affliction...

Edit:

Also, it wasn't THAT risky... we'd have to roll a 3 or lower to die in that circumstance. But you have to roll once per party member, and well... someone got unlucky.

I'm not saying "ZOMG WTF 4E SUX" I was just rather startled to find a make-roll-or-die effect still in the game.

Zaeron
2008-10-17, 03:27 PM
If you were hit with a level 18ish affliction at level 8, that sounds like a horrible DM issue to me.

GWLlosa
2008-10-17, 03:35 PM
If you were hit with a level 18ish affliction at level 8, that sounds like a horrible DM issue to me.

Yes and no... the game has a high amount of 'divine intervention', in that the gods are totally real and totally interested in mucking about with things... And our paladin decided that mouthing off was an EXCELLENT idea. WWAD (What Would Asmodeus Do) to a mouthing-off paladin? The only irritating bit is that he's not the corpse, its the ranger that tried to talk him out of it the whole time that wound up failing the die roll.

Artanis
2008-10-17, 03:37 PM
That simply means that A) the affliction was significantly higher level than you, or B) yes, your heal-check-guy sucked.

If you're level 18, that's a +9 to skill checks. So for the best skill check to be 15, your Heal-trained PC would have a max WIS modifier of +1. If you didn't have anybody trained in Healing, it means you were trying to perform a potentially fatal ritual without anybody trained in the relevant skill, regardless of the fact that somebody would've had a WIS modifier of +1.

And if you did have somebody both trained in healing AND having decent WIS? Congratulations, you just tried to use a potentially-fatal ritual to remove something above your level, maybe even far above your level. In which case the DM deliberately stacked the odds against the players.


Edit: Ninja'd
This is regarding the +15 Heal Check thing.

Also, "only a 3 or less is fatal" is still more than 1 in 7 odds of dying. If you get the short end of a 1 in 7 chance...well...

Yakk
2008-10-17, 03:42 PM
Note that "penalty equal to the level of the affliction" might be due for an errata.

Skill DCs aren't scaling up with LEVEL anymore, more like LEVEL/2 to 2LEVEL/3.

Artanis
2008-10-17, 03:50 PM
Something else I just remembered: did that +15 include other party members using Aid Another? With 6 people in the party, that's still 4 people to use Aid Another (which, incidentally, is the max number of people who can help the ritual caster, but I digress). With that many PCs, even the worst theoretically possible set of skill check mods gives nearly a 95% chance of somebody adding +2 to the ritual's Heal check.


Edit: Addendum



At level 30, the person doing the ritual gets +15 to the check from level. If he's trained, that's another +5, for a total of +20. At that level, the cooperation checks are guaranteed to succeed, giving a total of +28. Since the lowest d20 roll is 1, that's a minimum check of 29. Thus Skill Focus or a Wisdom score of 14+ will guarantee a 1+ post-penalty tally, meaning no automatically-fatal ritual result.

With Skill Focus, the minimum check result with following these steps goes up to 32, for a minimum of 2 post-penalty check. Another 8 points (remembering a nat 1 is already factored in) means a non-dying character automatically succeeds. That's a stat score of 26 for a nat 1 to still work on a non-dying character. A WIS-reliant character will undoubtably be at least 20 or so, meaning a 4+ would heal a non-dying character without immediately killing him. That would give an 85% or more chance to remove a level 30 affliction to a character making even a half-hearted attempt to boost his Heal checks.

Take that as you will.

Kurald Galain
2008-10-17, 04:16 PM
Note that "penalty equal to the level of the affliction" might be due for an errata.

Agreed. Guess they proofread this as well as they did the "penalty equal to the level of the victim" for pickpocketing (which was errata'd).

KillianHawkeye
2008-10-17, 04:26 PM
Yes and no... the game has a high amount of 'divine intervention', in that the gods are totally real and totally interested in mucking about with things... And our paladin decided that mouthing off was an EXCELLENT idea. WWAD (What Would Asmodeus Do) to a mouthing-off paladin? The only irritating bit is that he's not the corpse, its the ranger that tried to talk him out of it the whole time that wound up failing the die roll.

Sounds like the results were very appropriate, then. Roleplay it to the max. The paladin player should use this experience to grow his character by dealing with the remorse of a trusted allies' death when he was the cause. It should also teach your players not to piss off a god when they're only level 8.

Heck, maybe the paladin could learn his lesson and go on a quest or do something else to redeem himself, and the paladin's deity could bring the dead character back to life.

JaxGaret
2008-10-17, 04:27 PM
So if your DM threw you up against a level 19 Solo, you would be cool with that too?

Inyssius Tor
2008-10-17, 04:54 PM
Throw some happy into this brewing fight: I love that ritual. Accidentally killing the person you were trying to save is awesome.

Also, like Killian said, extra roleplaying opportunity there with the paladin!

... Were you actually complaining, 'Llosa, or just saying? If the latter, quick, say something nice about 4e! Put it in bold, so they'll notice, and be very careful to note that the system also has flaws--so that EE doesn't show up, like a thread-derailing Hastur or Chrestomanci...

Artanis
2008-10-17, 04:58 PM
Also, it wasn't THAT risky... we'd have to roll a 3 or lower to die in that circumstance. But you have to roll once per party member, and well... someone got unlucky
OK, I just noticed this (and yes, my Perception check is apparently -35 today :smallredface: ), but you don't have to roll once per party member. The only one who rolls a skill check is the guy who casts the ritual. Everybody else can roll Aid Another checks, but all that happens is that a 10 or higher gives the main guy +2 on his roll. So if a 3 or lower on the Heal check would kill the person, having just two of the other party members succeed on their Aid Another rolls would make the ritual automatically succeed without killing the person.

erikun
2008-10-17, 05:08 PM
I thought this kind of "your-life-hinges-on-a-single-roll" thing was supposed to go away with 4e?:smalleek:
It was the "your life hinges on a single attack roll" that went away. Although it is amusing that the most dangerous thing a PC can face is their own friends...

GWLlosa
2008-10-17, 05:11 PM
... Were you actually complaining, 'Llosa, or just saying? If the latter, quick, say something nice about 4e! Put it in bold, so they'll notice, and be very careful to note that the system also has flaws--so that EE doesn't show up, like a thread-derailing Hastur or Chrestomanci...



I wasn't really complaining, was just sort of startled to find that situation in 4E.

GWLlosa
2008-10-17, 05:14 PM
So if your DM threw you up against a level 19 Solo, you would be cool with that too?


If I mouthed off to an evil diety? I'd expect nothing less...

JaxGaret
2008-10-17, 05:37 PM
If I mouthed off to an evil diety? I'd expect nothing less...

Okay :smallsmile:

So any system you play will still have SoDs, then. Or at least non-winnable situations.

Throwing a level 19 Solo at a level 8 party is pretty close to being a SoD, except the only save is to run a little faster than your friends :smallwink:

KillianHawkeye
2008-10-17, 05:54 PM
So if your DM threw you up against a level 19 Solo, you would be cool with that too?

If it was standing at the top of a mountain minding it's own business, and I climbed up there and started harrassing it despite knowing exactly how strong it was?

Yeah, I think I pretty much had it coming.

GWLlosa
2008-10-17, 07:41 PM
If it was standing at the top of a mountain minding it's own business, and I climbed up there and started harrassing it despite knowing exactly how strong it was?

Yeah, I think I pretty much had it coming.

Sadly, you're closer than you think.... We've had a LOT of deaths this campaign, over fairly varied things...


For example, did you know that a level 8 wizard does not quite have enough spells to solo an entire town of peasants? And the survivors, despite all being level 1 minions, are enough to drag the wizard down, tie her up, and burn her at the stake?


This is why you don't walk into a bar and say, "Bitches, I'm XXX the Wizard, and my drinks are free."

Tsotha-lanti
2008-10-17, 07:43 PM
If you were hit with a level 18ish affliction at level 8, that sounds like a horrible DM issue to me.

Yep, this is the issue.

It's not a "save or die" spell. It's a "if you take a really stupid risk casting this ritual, you might die."

Basic statistics also helps. With an 85% chance of survival and six characters, the odds were 37% that every single member of the party would survive.

You don't bet on 37% odds, unless you're really desperate.

(This is, of course, not considering what Artanis points out - that only one check was actually required.)


If I mouthed off to an evil diety? I'd expect nothing less...

So you think it was just dandy that the deity killed one of you? Great. I think that's appropriate, too. But if you're clearly wrong about the ritual, and you're not complaining about the death, then what's the subject of the thread?

GWLlosa
2008-10-17, 07:48 PM
I missed something. How is only one check required? Isn't it one check per person you're removing the affliction from?

And I'm not so much complaining (ZOMG NERF EBIL 4E SPELL) as startled and amused by the fact that you can be taken out by a healing ritual (LOLZ LOOK WUT HAPPENED).:smalltongue:

JaxGaret
2008-10-17, 07:59 PM
We've had a LOT of deaths this campaign, over fairly varied things...

For example, did you know that a level 8 wizard does not quite have enough spells to solo an entire town of peasants? And the survivors, despite all being level 1 minions, are enough to drag the wizard down, tie her up, and burn her at the stake?

This is why you don't walk into a bar and say, "Bitches, I'm XXX the Wizard, and my drinks are free."

Fred. It's always Fred the Wizard.

Also, I like your group.

Artanis
2008-10-17, 11:07 PM
I missed something. How is only one check required? Isn't it one check per person you're removing the affliction from?

And I'm not so much complaining (ZOMG NERF EBIL 4E SPELL) as startled and amused by the fact that you can be taken out by a healing ritual (LOLZ LOOK WUT HAPPENED).:smalltongue:
I thought you meant that one person in the party had been afflicted. Even still, each removal is one check, presumably by the guy with the best Heal check you've got.

And even if you have to remove it from multiple people, you're still talking about a situation where the DM is basically screwing you (whether deserved or not), and the fact that it comes in the form of a potential ritual failure really doesn't make any difference.

Jayabalard
2008-10-20, 08:13 AM
So if your DM threw you up against a level 19 Solo, you would be cool with that too?maybe, maybe not.

If, on the other hand, I threw myself up against a level 19 solo, I'd be fine with that. And since that's closer to what actually happened, it's probably the better analogy.

only1doug
2008-10-20, 08:58 AM
Actually, our heal check was pretty good (+15 or so). But this ritual gives you the LEVEL of the affliction as a PENALTY to the roll. Given that it was a level 18 or so affliction...

Also, it wasn't THAT risky... we'd have to roll a 3 or lower to die in that circumstance. But you have to roll once per party member, and well... someone got unlucky.




Yes and no... the game has a high amount of 'divine intervention', in that the gods are totally real and totally interested in mucking about with things... And our paladin decided that mouthing off was an EXCELLENT idea. WWAD (What Would Asmodeus Do) to a mouthing-off paladin? The only irritating bit is that he's not the corpse, its the ranger that tried to talk him out of it the whole time that wound up failing the die roll.

Given that the Gods intervene a lot, wouldn't it of been more sensible for the Paladin to ask his god to help remove the curse instead of trying (and dying) to do it yourselves?

GWLlosa
2008-10-20, 03:38 PM
Given that the Gods intervene a lot, wouldn't it of been more sensible for the Paladin to ask his god to help remove the curse instead of trying (and dying) to do it yourselves?

Probably, but the next time our group does the smart thing will be the second time, ever. And I think the first was just a lucky guess.

DM Raven
2008-10-20, 04:03 PM
Remove Affliction. You get a penalty to the ritual equal to the level of the affliction on you. Our 6 man party had been afflicted, and attempted to remove it ourselves. On the ranger, we rolled a '1'. The result was death. I thought this kind of "your-life-hinges-on-a-single-roll" thing was supposed to go away with 4e?:smalleek:

Next time I suggest killing the character and casting raise dead. It's a bit more expensive but much safer...you only get a small penalty for several encounters.

I believe killing someone removes their afflictions, doesn't it? ;p

Eorran
2008-10-20, 04:26 PM
Next time I suggest killing the character and casting raise dead. It's a bit more expensive but much safer...you only get a small penalty for several encounters.

I believe killing someone removes their afflictions, doesn't it? ;p
NPC: So, what's the prognosis, doctor?
Cleric: I have good news and bad news. The good news is I can cure you. The bad news is I have to kill you first.
:smalleek:

Yakk
2008-10-20, 04:29 PM
Um, if remove affliction fails, just raise dead?

Why not do the cheaper one first?

DM Raven
2008-10-20, 04:32 PM
Raise Dead is only 250 gold more than remove affliction. However, Raise Dead gets much more expensive once you hit paragon and epic tiers.

erikun
2008-10-20, 04:34 PM
I believe killing someone removes their afflictions, doesn't it? ;p
Good news, we found a cure for cancer!
*revs chainsaw*

DM Raven
2008-10-20, 05:10 PM
Good news, we found a cure for cancer!
*revs chainsaw*

I would laugh at your joke, but doing so would shift my alignment 5 points towards evil.

Instead I will just shake my head in a non-approving manner...

...

*shakes head in a non-approving manner*

potatocubed
2008-10-20, 06:22 PM
For example, did you know that a level 8 wizard does not quite have enough spells to solo an entire town of peasants? And the survivors, despite all being level 1 minions, are enough to drag the wizard down, tie her up, and burn her at the stake?

This is why you don't walk into a bar and say, "Bitches, I'm XXX the Wizard, and my drinks are free."

I haven't laughed so much in days. Thanks for that. XD

GWLlosa
2008-10-21, 11:49 AM
Next time I suggest killing the character and casting raise dead. It's a bit more expensive but much safer...you only get a small penalty for several encounters.

I believe killing someone removes their afflictions, doesn't it? ;p

Amusingly enough, the party cleric has an ethical problem with raising dead, it being interference in the Raven Queen's plans and whatnot.:smallbiggrin:

chiasaur11
2008-10-21, 12:21 PM
Good news, we found a cure for cancer!
*revs chainsaw*

Hey, we need to save those for curing zombieism!

Roderick_BR
2008-10-21, 02:04 PM
By what I heard, "healing" rituals (remove diseases, rise dead) are the new save-or-dies... against yourself.
I still need to get to that part of the book. Curse my slow reader-ness, too much work, too much school, and TeamFortress2 :smallsigh:

Oracle_Hunter
2008-10-21, 02:12 PM
By what I heard, "healing" rituals (remove diseases, rise dead) are the new save-or-dies... against yourself.
I still need to get to that part of the book. Curse my slow reader-ness, too much work, too much school, and TeamFortress2 :smallsigh:

No, 4e just made Magical Healing a little more chancy. Diseases are nasty things which you can recover from over time, or very quickly through a Ritual. Now, though, an inept Healer (one with a low Heal skill, or someone casting from a higher-level scroll) has a chance of either killing the patient outright, or doing substantial damage to their body.

Note that HP can only be recovered by spending Healing Surges (or via Paladin's Lay on Hands, which spends his surges) so if you have to do this on the fly, you may end up stuck with 4 less Healing Surges than you should have. This can be Very Bad if you were planning on fighting someone today :smallamused:

Starbuck_II
2008-10-21, 02:42 PM
Next time I suggest killing the character and casting raise dead. It's a bit more expensive but much safer...you only get a small penalty for several encounters.

I believe killing someone removes their afflictions, doesn't it? ;p

I don't think reviving some cures them. I think it just puts the disease on hold.
Nope, I read the DMG, you have the disease until cured whether by a good endurance check or ritual removing it.

kc0bbq
2008-10-21, 02:54 PM
Note that HP can only be recovered by spending Healing Surges (or via Paladin's Lay on Hands, which spends his surges) so if you have to do this on the fly, you may end up stuck with 4 less Healing Surges than you should have. This can be Very Bad if you were planning on fighting someone today :smallamused:There are plenty of ways to get hp back without using healing surges. Cure xxx Wounds spells and other similar powers, item powers...

Oracle_Hunter
2008-10-21, 03:16 PM
There are plenty of ways to get hp back without using healing surges. Cure xxx Wounds spells and other similar powers, item powers...

The Cure Series of spells are all Dailies, and save you a single Healing Surge. I don't know of any non-Cure Series powers in Heroic that allow you to recover HP without a Surge (Lay On Hands excepted) nor can I think of any items which do that either.

But perhaps you know of them? In any case, I hope you'll agree that it is very hard to heal in 4e without spending a Healing Surge, and that recovering from 0 HP from a botched Remove Affliction is no fun at all.

RTGoodman
2008-10-21, 03:20 PM
The Cure Series of spells are all Dailies, and save you a single Healing Surge. I don't know of any non-Cure Series powers in Heroic that allow you to recover HP without a Surge (Lay On Hands excepted) nor can I think of any items which do that either.

Dwarven Armor lets you heal yourself as if you'd spent a healing surge, once per day, as free action. It's probably my favorite low-level armor.

EDIT: I still agree with you, though - ALMOST all healing requires you to spend surges, and if you've had to spend them just to get over being cured, well, that sucks.