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gnomas
2008-10-17, 08:05 PM
Like so many others, I am looking to start star wars rpg as a new system, and was of course wondering...do I use the old one or saga edition?

and once that's cleared up, any general advice about the system and the types of games to run?

thanks in advance

EDIT: I am now a dwarf. yay.

Mando Knight
2008-10-17, 08:40 PM
Well, all of the material for the WEG or d20 Star Wars systems have been released already--if you want material based on, say, the Force Unleashed or Star Wars: The Clone Wars, you'll want/need SAGA edition.

SAGA doesn't have a lot of material yet, but so far they've released the KOTOR and Force Unleashed campaign manuals, the MM-ish Threats of the Galaxy, and the Starships of the Galaxy sourcebooks. Scum and Villainy, which will have additional rules for customizing equipment, will come out on the same day as 4E's Draconomicon I and Martial Power, November 18.

Threats has most of the enemies you'll need to run most games, while KOTOR and Force Unleashed have era-specific characters and additional Force Powers, talents, and equipment. Starships is useful for any time you want to run space combat (again, KOTOR and Force Unleashed campaign guides have additional era-specific starships), as it has rules for customizing ships, additional starship-oriented talents and powers, and a codex of ships running from 4000+ BBY to 130+ ABY.

Beleriphon
2008-10-17, 08:43 PM
Like so many others, I am looking to start star wars rpg as a new system, and was of course wondering...do I use the old one or saga edition?

and once that's cleared up, any general advice about the system and the types of games to run?

thanks in advance

EDIT: I am now a dwarf. yay.


I prefer Saga personally, its easier to run in general. The books thus far have been excellent. The KotOR book is made of win on toast.

Talya
2008-10-17, 09:00 PM
Saga? Absolutely yes. With one qualification:

Make heavy use of the destiny system, and allow the players to fulfill several destinies throughout a campaign. That's the only way the game can ever remain remotely balanced at higher levels. (Getting a permanent +5 destiny bonus to Use the Force checks means jedi signature abilities remain useful past level 15...otherwise they're useless.)

West End Games is probably just as good, but no more published material makes it less useful for many campaigns.

gnomas
2008-10-17, 09:03 PM
sounds like fun. i've never played a system with saga's "talent progression" method. i'm eager to try it, is it easy to learn?

edit: time to bring this up...ok how balanced are jedi vs everyone else?

Jack Zander
2008-10-17, 09:36 PM
Jedi are no more powerful than non-jedi. This is mainly due to the fact that everyone can use the force, jedi just get the feat for it for free at 1st level.

Also, Force powers are more powerful early levels than they are at higher levels as Tayla suggested.

The_Snark
2008-10-17, 10:16 PM
I'll add another vote for Saga. It's pretty simple (more so than the older d20 version), fairly well-balanced, and captures a fun Star Wars-y feeling, at least in the games I've played.

As others have noted, Jedi can be pretty powerful at low levels, but characters of other classes can still competeóeven in combat, if they're well-built. If you're worried about Jedi being too powerful at low levels, don't allow them to take Skill Focus (Use the Force) until level 9 or so. If you're worried about the opposite problem at higher levels (because skill modifiers do fall behind attacks and defenses as you get to that point), you might allow them to take it again, or go with Talya's destiny solution.

Knaight
2008-10-17, 10:21 PM
Saga is an impressive, and highly usable system. Its not what I would use, but thats because I dislike class based systems, and could easily coax Starwars out of Fudge.

Talya
2008-10-17, 10:26 PM
Saga is an impressive, and highly usable system. Its not what I would use, but thats because I dislike class based systems, and could easily coax Starwars out of Fudge.

If not using class based, I'd use WEG D6 Star Wars. It's just as usable, and frankly, the lack of source material for newer star wars settings is not all that much of a drawback, since it's so simple to homebrew in it that you can do it without thinking.

TRM
2008-10-17, 10:27 PM
My problem with SAGA is that the book is a non-standard size. :smallannoyed:

Besides that, it's simple and elegant; I highly recommend it over the earlier d20 edition.

Talya
2008-10-17, 10:28 PM
My problem with SAGA is that the book is a non-standard size. :smallannoyed:



However, it's a size that fits nearly perfectly on a widescreen monitor, with Acrobat Reader set to "Two pages up."

turkishproverb
2008-10-17, 10:31 PM
Weg is good classic stuff: A more elegant weapon from a more civilized time.

And you can find fan conversions of most newer stuff.


SAGA uses the new 4.0D20 better than Dungeons and dragons does

other d20 needs work.

horseboy
2008-10-17, 11:52 PM
My personal preference is for a WEG-Shadowrun hybrid. Instead of totaling your xd6's you use number of successes, except for damage. Cause there comes a time where you stop rolling the rest of your dice pool and just roll your botch die, cause you're going to succeed anyway. But, WEG is still better than d20.

Attilargh
2008-10-18, 02:55 AM
SAGA, without a doubt. It's current, popular, simple and just plain fun to play.

However, take any stat blocks with a container of salt. Many of them have a number of quite embarrassing mistakes, like KotOR's Darth Traya having the wrong Use the Force modifier.

Learnedguy
2008-10-18, 03:35 AM
Alternatively, use M&M. Very easy to create what you want, and should be quite balanced. From this page and forwards (http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?p=324530#324530) you'll find some archetypal Star Wards characters converted to M&M by people smarter than I am.

For grunts I suppose you can just copy stuff from the usual M&M supplements with minor changes.

Satyr
2008-10-18, 03:43 AM
If you can get it, try the West End Games Star Wars D6 - it is an easy to learn, easy to use system (the one problem is, that you will sometimes have to roll around 10 or so dices, but that is supposed for tthe crowning moments of a character's career).

I have very fond memories of this game and the campaigns even though we took a certain... artistic freedom with the background ("The movies are propaganda of the Rebel movement that contains as much truth as an Eisenstein movie - in truth, the Rebels are an alliance of terrorist movements and self-proclaimed 'freedom fighters' that are just as bad as the Empire and the Pisonic abilities work just as well for people who don't believe in the Jedi's pseudo-religious gibberish").

Hawriel
2008-10-18, 04:07 AM
I recomend WEG D6 Star Wars. The writing truely captures the feel of the setting. If you have trouble finding the books on amazon or ebay then look up WEG D6 Space. I picked it up afew months ago and I was very impressed. The WEG is set up to be genaric to a point. It gives rules for scale, character building, ship building and combat. It does it in a way so that you can use the rules to fit star wars, star trek, B5, or even farescape. Its kinda like Star Wars 2.5/3 Ed. There is also a ship building book that has detailed rules for creating ships. A whole lot better than the star wars game ever did. For all thoughs D6 fans out there I highly recomend getting this book. Especialy sence Tramp Freighters is almost impossable to find.

I cant truely say any thing against the SAGA version because I never picked it up. Its level based and that is a turn off for me and star wars. I found the D20 very restrictive.

Kiero
2008-10-18, 05:55 AM
If you must use a D20 system, Saga Edition is a lot better than the "D&D-with-the-serials-filed-off-IN-SPACE!!" that preceded it.

The Rose Dragon
2008-10-18, 07:08 AM
Or if you want to use the d20 system, you can always use M&M or True20.

I loved the d6 SW game, though. Never played it but the book was awesome.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-10-18, 09:26 AM
Jedi are no more powerful than non-jedi. This is mainly due to the fact that everyone can use the force, jedi just get the feat for it for free at 1st level.

Also, Force powers are more powerful early levels than they are at higher levels as Tayla suggested.

Yeah - however, Force-users are kinda more powerful than anyone else.

I don't really see any reason not to play a group of all Jedi/Force-users, though. Seems par for the Star Wars course, really.

SAGA is awesome.

Comet
2008-10-18, 09:34 AM
Sorry to derail a bit, but that Force Unleashed book kinda caught my eye.

Is it meant to expand on the period when Vader was hunting down the last of the jedi? Or is the book designed to let players around the world play with "unique" powerhouses of the Force, flinging Star Destroyers at each other's faces?

I just don't think that the main concept of Force Unleashed (which is to say, playing an overclocked machine of destruction the kinds of which the galaxy hasn't seen for quite some time) doesn't quite mesh with RPGs that well. The plot is very single-protagonist focused and transferring that to a group-oriented storytelling form doesn't seem like right to me.

I hope I'm wrong and the book is something else than "now YOU can be Darth Vaders secret apprentice! And your friends can, too!".

Tsotha-lanti
2008-10-18, 09:38 AM
Is it meant to expand on the period when Vader was hunting down the last of the jedi? Or is the book designed to let players around the world play with "unique" powerhouses of the Force, flinging Star Destroyers at each other's faces?

I haven't a clue, but the Move Object DC for Star Destroyers is already included in the SAGA core book, as I recall.

Talya
2008-10-18, 09:43 AM
Is it meant to expand on the period when Vader was hunting down the last of the jedi? Or is the book designed to let players around the world play with "unique" powerhouses of the Force, flinging Star Destroyers at each other's faces?


Yes.



As for flinging star destroyers at each other's faces, the "Unleashed" force powers in the book that do insane things all require destiny points to activate, so in typical Saga Edition style, you can be truly godlike, for a single action--make it count.

Beleriphon
2008-10-18, 01:03 PM
Alternatively, use M&M. Very easy to create what you want, and should be quite balanced. From this page and forwards (http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?p=324530#324530) you'll find some archetypal Star Wards characters converted to M&M by people smarter than I am.

Hey, thats my thread. :smallbiggrin:

Tsotha-lanti
2008-10-18, 01:08 PM
As for flinging star destroyers at each other's faces, the "Unleashed" force powers in the book that do insane things all require destiny points to activate, so in typical Saga Edition style, you can be truly godlike, for a single action--make it count.

Checked it out, and the Unleashed Move Object ability just increases damage done.

Unleashed Dark Rage is the bomb, though.

Lert, A.
2008-10-18, 02:29 PM
I have very fond memories of this game and the campaigns even though we took a certain... artistic freedom with the background ("The movies are propaganda of the Rebel movement that contains as much truth as an Eisenstein movie - in truth, the Rebels are an alliance of terrorist movements and self-proclaimed 'freedom fighters' that are just as bad as the Empire and the Pisonic abilities work just as well for people who don't believe in the Jedi's pseudo-religious gibberish").

You too? When the prequels started coming out we also went with the premise that while there are misguided noble-minded people in the Jedi Order, it was run by corrupt self-serving overlords. The reasoning is: there are those that follow the restrictive Jedi path and those who turn away. These ones are labeled as "tainted by the Dark Side" though they may not have committed evil acts. Those Dark Side users are banished and not seen again, because they are murdered by covert Jedi death squads. The Sith are actually force users who have survived from these attacks and work to strike against the Order so that they may free force users from a life of tyranny.

On topic: Saga is awesome. I still get weird vibes off the changed skill system, but that is likely because of all the skill point juggling goodness of previous games. Overall, very well thought out, but there is the common force users greater in power weakness to the game. It can be worked around, but it requires using a large amount of creativity. Of course, if you've played with D&D spellcasters, you would likely be used to this already.

Ascension
2008-10-18, 02:53 PM
the premise that while there are misguided noble-minded people in the Jedi Order, it was run by corrupt self-serving overlords. The reasoning is: there are those that follow the restrictive Jedi path and those who turn away. These ones are labeled as "tainted by the Dark Side" though they may not have committed evil acts. Those Dark Side users are banished and not seen again, because they are murdered by covert Jedi death squads. The Sith are actually force users who have survived from these attacks and work to strike against the Order so that they may free force users from a life of tyranny.

It's not that uncommon an idea, it seems... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94140)

On topic, I have a growing fondness for Saga. It has quirks I'm not so happy about, of course, but overall it's quite a nice system. My complaints can basically be summarized:
1.) Healing is really, really hard, even if you try to optimize specifically for it. The new Medic prestige class alleviates this greatly, though. Force users don't really have any trouble with healing either, thanks to regenerative qualities of the Force Trance, it's mainly low level mundanes that have a problem with it.
2.) Prestige class entry seems a bit late.
3.) The skill system means that if your first level is a skillmonkey level, you're a skillmonkey for life, but if your first level is a combat-oriented level, you'll never be particularly skillful. I guess it's more realistic to have the bulk of skill training occur prior to the start of the game, but it just feels... strange.

Other than that it's fine.

Starbuck_II
2008-10-18, 02:53 PM
Saga is an impressive, and highly usable system. Its not what I would use, but thats because I dislike class based systems, and could easily coax Starwars out of Fudge.

Seeing as there is no penalty to multiclassing and it is assumed you will (and balanced for that assumption): is Saga really that much a class system.

Heck, Jedis aren't any better than any other class at Force powers. Everyone must use their feat to get them.

Talya
2008-10-18, 03:37 PM
Seeing as there is no penalty to multiclassing and it is assumed you will (and balanced for that assumption): is Saga really that much a class system.

Heck, Jedis aren't any better than any other class at Force powers. Everyone must use their feat to get them.

While this is true, it's hard to ever match a jedi's skill with a lightsaber by using other classes. Block, Deflect, Redirect, Riposte, and a few of the Lightsaber Forms --particularly Soresu, Shii-Cho, Juyo, and Vaapad-- (which Sith can also take through "Stolen Form") are seriously amazing. Now, force secrets and force techniques can be acheived through the adept and disciple classes, which means anybody can be their equal at using the force, just not with a lightsaber (Other than Sith.)

Beleriphon
2008-10-18, 03:51 PM
While this is true, it's hard to ever match a jedi's skill with a lightsaber by using other classes. Block, Deflect, Redirect, Riposte, and a few of the Lightsaber Forms --particularly Soresu, Shii-Cho, Juyo, and Vaapad-- (which Sith can also take through "Stolen Form") are seriously amazing. Now, force secrets and force techniques can be acheived through the adept and disciple classes, which means anybody can be their equal at using the force, just not with a lightsaber (Other than Sith.)

Mind you levels in Jedi aren't necessary to take levels in Jedi Knight. All you have to have is a +7 base attack bonus and UtF as a trained skill, and be a member of the Jedi Tradition. This gives access to the Jedi Knight talent trees. So any character can be a Jedi, even without taking the Jedi class.

Ascension
2008-10-18, 04:45 PM
Mind you levels in Jedi aren't necessary to take levels in Jedi Knight. All you have to have is a +7 base attack bonus and UtF as a trained skill, and be a member of the Jedi Tradition. This gives access to the Jedi Knight talent trees. So any character can be a Jedi, even without taking the Jedi class.

Nope, you also have to have built your own lightsaber, which is an option only available to those with 7+ levels of Jedi. And even if you could, not having the Block/Deflect talents would hurt anyone trying to be a great saber duelist without taking levels of Jedi.

Mando Knight
2008-10-18, 04:47 PM
and be a member of the Jedi Tradition.

This is the important bit. Most members (maybe 90-99.9%) of the Jedi Tradition take a level in the Jedi class, and some GMs may say that taking a level in the Jedi class is one of the requirements of joining the ranks of the Jedi Tradition (and therefore qualify for Jedi Knight).

The Jedi class is certainly at least the quickest way to get UtF trained, join the Jedi tradition, and get lightsaber proficiency (which is required for most, of the Jedi Knight talents...). The full BAB doesn't hurt, either...

EDIT: Also, Ascension, you don't need any levels of Jedi to build a lightsaber--you just need to be level 7 and have both Force Sensitivity and lightsaber proficiency.

Amiria
2008-10-18, 04:48 PM
Nope, you also have to have built your own lightsaber, which is an option only available to those with 7+ levels of Jedi.

You don't need 7+ levels of Jedi to build a Ligstsaber. Just being 7th level, force-sensitive and proficient with lightsabers is enough. Read the boxed text on p. 40.

Talya
2008-10-18, 05:51 PM
Mind you levels in Jedi aren't necessary to take levels in Jedi Knight. All you have to have is a +7 base attack bonus and UtF as a trained skill, and be a member of the Jedi Tradition. This gives access to the Jedi Knight talent trees. So any character can be a Jedi, even without taking the Jedi class.

Block, Deflect, Redirect, and Riposte are Jedi-only talents, I'm not sure Jedi Knights can take them. And even if you could, you don't get enough talents if you don't take them early.

Attilargh
2008-10-19, 02:18 AM
Block, Deflect, Redirect, and Riposte are Jedi-only talents, I'm not sure Jedi Knights can take them.
They're a part of the Lightsaber Combat talent tree, which is available to Jedi Knights.

Talya
2008-10-19, 09:25 AM
Even so, if you're taking those at Jedi Knight, you've already missed them for 7 levels, and the actual Jedi who took them from levels 1-7 are taking the lightsaber forms that enhance them and make them worth it during those levels instead--plus the ultimate duelling talents (Juyo+Vaapad).

Beleriphon
2008-10-19, 01:37 PM
Even so, if you're taking those at Jedi Knight, you've already missed them for 7 levels, and the actual Jedi who took them from levels 1-7 are taking the lightsaber forms that enhance them and make them worth it during those levels instead--plus the ultimate duelling talents (Juyo+Vaapad).

Ataru is actually one of the better talents for the Jedi Knight prestige class, and all it requires is a high dexterity score.

Talya
2008-10-19, 04:47 PM
Ataru is actually one of the better talents for the Jedi Knight prestige class, and all it requires is a high dexterity score.

Ataru's okay. It uses a precious talent, but it turns strength into a dump stat. If you can last long enough without it, it's good.

The supremely good ones for a saber duelist are Soresu and Juyo.

And if you're busy taking Block/Deflect/Redirect/Riposte for your knight levels, you won't get them.