Dominic Deegan, thread VI, Wyrd Snarksters [Archive]

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Jayngfet

2008-10-18, 02:45 AM

Thread Six, my my, where does the time go? And the quality for that matter? What about Deejah? Or the barbarian? Better wrap this up before I ramble:

For those of you who wandered in without looking at the forum or thread name, we're a group founded on mocking Dominic Deegan:Oracle for higher. (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/)

We've got the epic thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53160), three hundred posts, OVER NINE THOUSAAAND posts.

The bizarro old thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26550) with real praise.

The third thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82855): Complete with archives.

Strip slays (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37014) and Strip slays 2: the best thread strikes back
(http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91628) The threads with the ability to turn suck to awesome.

Winterwind's Encyclopedia Dominica
THE ENCYCLOPEDIA DOMINICA!
created by the joint efforts of all the Mookiemockers in this very thread, working tiredlessly to reveal the secrets and inner workings of the Deeganverse and the broken plots, drawings and writing of our most favourite (to make fun of) author.

Aberthast Cathedral
Resocialization centre. People who go there return as mindless sheep in service to the Dominus. It is a horrible place, where - no, please, no, don't take me, take Oracle_Hunter instead, please, it was him who---
Nothing to see here, citizen. Keep going. The Dominic is Your Friend.

Airships
Magical boats that fly through the air at approximately twice the speed of plot, which can therefore only catch up for brief moments while the ship is in dock for extended periods. The planks on an airship change direction from moment to moment, possibly as a result of its powerful magic.

Ass Shot, Inappropriate
Is a myth, or maybe propaganda spread by vile Mookiemockers opposed to the just rule of Lord Dominus. There is, in fact, no situation which cannot be improved by showing the behind of a female character. Especially well suited are scenes when the character in question is either dying, traumatised, despaired or fighting her former friends. In short, drama and tragedy are enhanced by ass shots. The more you know!

Balloon Boobs
A sexual ideal. Albeit I don't want to know for whom.

Callan
Basically the US in a supposedly (but not really) medieval setting, this unfortunate realm has drawn the relentless wrath of the Dominus upon itself. Therefore, it's failings must be pointed out and despised (instead of tolerated, accepted and embraced, as would be the case with other nations).
The population consists of either mindless sheep (see Deegandrug) or ignorant racists (who happen to be 100% spot on with their prejudices).
It is also hated by everyone else.
Because.

Caste
See Caste System.

Caste System
The Deeganverse has a simple caste-system, with five castes with a strict hierarchy.

The First Caste is the Deegan Family; they have practically a monopoly on good karma in the Deeganverse. They are good, perfect, always right (including and especially if they are not), and ultimately always win. Association with Dominic is more important than the Deegan name, in this regard: Luna is First Caste, Jacob is not.
Examples: Dominic, Gregory, Luna.

The Second Caste are the Deegan Friends. They, too, are good and (save for occasional moral slips, like Pam's Incredibly Unjust Punishment of Dominic) moral, but lack the power to overcome anything on their own, and therefore need the Deegans to help them. With everything.
Examples: Pam, Milov, Jayden

The Third Caste are the Anti-Heroes. These are morally wrong, but are handsome, powerful and therefore worthy of being saved. The major difference between them and the Fourth Caste is that, while both often exhibit the very same negative traits, the Deegans arbitrarily decide that members of the Third Caste can be forgiven, whereas those of the Fourth Caste cannot. Even if the Third Caste members do things actually much worse.
Examples: Siegfried, Szark, Snowsong, probably Karnak, maybe Celesto

The Fourth Caste are the Enemies. They are precisely the same as the Third Caste, except that they are not redeemable. The reason is: Because. Yep, that's the entire reason. Fourth Caste is often, though not always, ugly, and almost comically over-the-top in their negative traits, prominently racism.
Examples: Taggerty, Boris, any infernomancer

Fifth Caste is all the non-magical people who live their lives without any relevance to the plot.
Examples: per definition, Fifth Caste members do not have a name.

The Caste a character belongs to is determined at his birth and, save for a few exceptions, usually does not change. The actual deeds and alignment of a character do not matter: First and Second Caste characters can do things as evil as they wish to, and will be praised for that.
The only Caste-change which occurs often is from Third to Second: redeemed Anti-Heroes ultimately become Deegan Friends. The most prominent examples of this are Szark Sturtz and Bumper. A rarer case might have occured with regard to Celesto: arguably, by blowing Dominic's leg away, the fool might have sealed his fall from Third to Fourth Caste.
Another Caste change could be observed rather recently with the initiation of Nimmel's ascension to First Caste.

Celesto 5
Our last best hope for Dominic's fall.

Cheap
See Death.

Cheekmouth
A common affliction in the Deeganverse, this horrible disease causes the victims to mutate into horrible things with a seperate mouth on both of their cheeks. Other side effects include a higher willingness to worship the Dominus, racism and inconsistency.

Chimney
Since glasswood is the only kind of lumber that has been positively identified by the people of the Deeganverse as such, they are forced to use it for the purpose of warming their houses. Burning glasswood produces a smoke so thin, so volatile that it can pass through solid bricks, allowing the Fifth-Casters to not build hollow chimneys in their fireplaces. Instead, they build solid brick columns. However, while glasswood smoke can pass through bricks, it doesn't pass through cloth. For this reason, people wanting to look all badass and cool often prowl atop these chimneys, so that their capes will billow out dramatically, lifted by the fumes.
A side-effect of glasswood fumes is terminal stupidity.
Possibly the source of the Deegandrug. See Deegandrug, Glasswood.

Churchspace
A place for holding currently unused characters, while redeeming them if necessary. See also Aberthast Cathedral.

Dancing
An awkward ritual whose primary function is to be a source of ass shots. Except in Semash(i), where it is a substitute for debates, brawls, and warfare. It doesn't seem to involve a lot of motion, though: See "Ass-shot, Inappropriate".

Death
An event which, if directed against higher Caste members, is tragic enough for The Dominic to be sad. Possibly even for as much as ten minutes. But don't worry, it is a highly temporary affliction, since deceased higher Caste members can reincarnate to keep protecting the main characters. Even if it includes dying again.
See also Cheap.
If applied to Fourth Caste members, on the other hand, it is a reason to celebrate. These tend to be gone permanently, too.

Deegandrug
An air-born substance released by the First Caste into the air. Causes sheep-like obliviousness to the First Caste's failings, blind following and deep admiration for all of the First Caste's deeds. Only few remain immune to the Deegandrug's effects.

Demonic Badass Leadership Disfunction
A law of nature states: The bad-assness of a demon lord is inversely proportional to his skills as leader. The stronger and combat-capable any given demon lord is, the more unlucky he will get with his followers: They will upstage, overthrow, betray and ridicule him. Thus any sense of bad-assness is drained from the comic again, and natural order is restored. All bad-assness to the First Caste!

Disfigurement
A thing of beauty, which must under no circumstances be removed. But who would want to do that, anyway? Other girls and boys love hideous disfigurements! Isn't that good to know, kids?

Dominic
The immaculate self-insertion character, the All-Seeing Eye who is never wrong and solves any problem before the problem even knows it is about to occur. His morals are not to be questioned (even if questionable), he is always right (especially when he is wrong), and his defeats can be but temporary. His mind is superior to demon lords, his perfection knows no bounds. Lord of the First Caste. The Dominus.

Dynamic Panel Layout
A way to put the plot on hold for a week. Means that the same layout will be used throughout that week each and every day, but it's a different layout than usual. Yay?

FaRIA
The land of elves, where nobility is decided by whether trees like you. These guys are so amazing they can pronounce certain letters in lower case. The magic of FaRIA protects its residents from plot.

Forsaken
Characters meant to appear in the strip and then forgotten. Include the Oracle Hunter and Huk Thak. See Trailer.

Fairies, Nipple
Nefarious creatures who steal the nipples of sentient creatures, and are largely responsible for the lack of nipples in Dominion. Merfolk are particularly badly-afflicted. Some say the fairies steal nipples for food, others for construction materials, while some insist that they are merely thralls to some greater power (see "Progenitor").

Fangly
A cute little symbiote that resides upside down under Luna's nose, this delightful parasite feeds on Luna's emotions but inverts them. In layman's terms, when Luna is happy, Fangy is sad, and vice versa. It is likely that the Travorias knew of Fangly's existence, and tormented Luna in order to cheer Fangly up.

Glasswood
This curious tree is the main source of building material in the Deeganverse - probably, because the inhabitants have not figured out that the green triangular mountains surrounding them are trees as well. They are hardly to blame for that. Unfortunately, glasswood has very poor properties as building material, for, true to its name, it is prone to shattering in a glass-like manner. For this reason, higher Castes prefer to live in stone-houses, while listening gleefully to the painful screams of the lower Castes as those are slashed to shreds by their walls and furniture. See Trees.
A second theory persists, however, which maintains that glasswood is actually not wood at all, and that lower Castes instead choose to build their houses out of baked pottery painted to appear like wood. Which, again, would be well within the limits of their stupidity, lacking a First Caste character to lead them.

Gregory
A brainwashed god.

Hobgoblins
Unpredictable creatures who act based on the results of a D20. Little is known about their language, but attempts to communicate have revealed that the hobgoblins are in possession of a large supply of babel fish. Those who do communicate believe that the word "Arf" roughly translates to "Hail Dominus". Very susceptible to the Deegandrug.

Hope
A strange substance often held in abundance by Dominic Deegan fans, but which we snarkers syphon off using agressive cynicism to use as fuel. Typically found in abundance at the beginning of every new arc, but wanes as time goes on.

Illusions
Problem solvers. No, really! There's no problem a well placed illusion could not solve! One might kinda call them Deus Ex Machinas, but that would be mean, right?
They are also well suited for fun activities, like children birthday parties or horribly traumatising friends. Fun times!

Inquisition
Prominently lead by h_v, the Inquisition serves to cart off all the heretic posters on this thread who dare to speak the name of Our Lord Dominus, Who Sees Everything, The Great Manipulator, The One Behind The Strings without proper reverence to Aberthast Cathedral. Main enforcer of the Dominus' control.
Noone expects the Deegan Inquisition!

Invisible King
The evil ruler of Callan who never appears or does anything in the strip, lord of the government. Which is evil. And never seen either.
We do not know why the government or the king are evil or why they do what they do, because they never actually appear in the strip to present their case, but since they are a government, they obviously must be evil. This is political sophistication for you.
Alternately, them being evil might be only propaganda, for they seem to be one of the last groups not yet under the Dominus' manipulative control.

Jocks
People who mocked Mookie in school, and therefore are Fourth Caste material destined to die horribly.

Klo-Tark
Why won't he die?! WHY WON'T HE DIE?!

LiveJournal
Basically Evil Twin Universe us. I can only assume there's each and every one of us represented there, with a goatee, babbling genuine praise towards Mookie and Lord Dominus. Also known as sheep.

Luna
The First Puppet. Tusks.

Magic
...sometimes is just Magic.

Manipulation
Desirable.

Mavpel
Long thought a relatively harmless (if addicting) candy, this substance is in fact the foundation of the First Caste’s powers. Using specialised glands, they transform Mavpel into the chemical known as the Deegandrug and expel it as a gas (see “Deegandrug”). Mavpel deprivation can lead to psychological breakdown in the First Caste, with symptoms including outbursts of berserk rage, drastically-lowered Mary-Sue levels and a higher-than-usual drive to mind rape. Ambitious lower-caste members can use this to their advantage, as when Cassafin usurped Dominus’ rightful position as headteacher.
The only known location of Mavpel plantations is the Winter Archipelago, increasing its importance to the First Caste and explaining the teleportation ban there. The supply of Mavpel was cut off by the Archipelago recently, possibly as part of a werewolf rebellion, but the crisis was resolved when the “archtraitor” Milov broke the embargo and granted the Dominus his own personal Mavpel supply.

Merfolk
Deceptive jerks who deserve whatever they get. Whatever they get.

Miranda
The heavy artillery. As long as Dominic's mother remains around, we can rest assured that even if something should go awry, the good guys can always call on this Deus Ex Momina support. That helps to not make things too exciting.

Mirror
The perfect psychological instrument, heals any depression, insecurities, mental trauma and shyness, may also induce a complete 180 degree personality flip. This occurs by the character taking 5 minutes to remind her or himself of their successes or the necessecity for them to behave that way.
It is unknown why Mookie has not yet patented this method, since it would easily replace all psychiatrists on the planet.
Note that a physical mirror is not necessarily required; it's the 5 minutes reflection that counts.

Mookie
See Dominic. Sans perfection.

Mookinsertion
A strange creature, of which two races, mookius vulgaris and mookius nobilis, have been identified so far. Distinguished for their intellect and flawlessness, Mookinsertions are living avatars of the Mookie on the physical plane, and are, as such, immortal - the most lethal weapons will cause only minor injuries to a Mookinsertion, which will (of course) be forgotten as soon as the arc is over. Typically, a Mookinsertion lives in human disguise for up to thirty years, before it begins its metamorphosis to a fully grown Mookie Sue. This process can be easily observed in a rapid rise through the Castes - within only a few years, a Mookinsertion can grow from Fifth Caste to Second, bordering First.
A mookius vulgaris is lauded for its intellect and skills at all times, and may even every now and then save the day.
A mookius nobilis is Dominic Deegan. 'Nuff said.

Moon
A huge, gargantuan round orb that is always in the background. How it accomplishes that feat is unknown yet.

Murder
Minor infraction. May cause Death. Easily redeemable (see Caste System, Redemption).

Nagastrali
Home of four-armed fish people and the world's only dragon.

Nineteen Eighty-Four
Main inspiration for Dominic Deegan.
Okay, not really, but for a major part of our MST3King anyway.

Orcs
Noble savages. Can save by rape.

Perspective
Is a lie told by Mookie's stupid art professor who didn't even like his awesome anime drawings.

Plot
A psychological disorder, leading to people behaving temporarily or permanently in a way completely inconsistent with their character as established previously (see Mirror).

Progenitor
Far removed from the turmoil of civilisation, just beyond the Edge of the Dominus' sphere of influence, lives a creature that is above time, nature, and even the Caste System itself. Few know of its existance, and whisper its many titles with fear and adoration: The Alpha. The Progenitor. The Anchor of Dominion. For none dare to call upon it by its true, world-shaking name: Bort.
First being to be shaped by the Mookreator's hand (and, admittedly, his shape does reveal a certain... lack of experience on this omnipotent god's part), the Progenitor is capable of re-writing reality on a whim, break continuity and drain any sense from his surroundings - clearly attributes he shares with the Mookreator himself and signs of his divine descent!
The Progenitor stands above the castes, and even the Dominus himself felt the need to bow down and do hard physical work for the Progenitor, which the latter could have easily accomplished in seconds - the grand manipulator finally found his master. Whether this was for fear of drawing his elder brother's wrath upon him, or whether the Dominus fell victim of the powerful Deegandrug that forced him to accept the superiority of a being of an even higher caste than his own remains a mysterium of Domiology.

Puns
The highest form of humour, and don't let anyone who isn't Mookie tell you differently! Perfectly suitable to any situation, be it everyday conversation or severe and traumatic loss of loved ones, because they do not harm drama! At all!

Races
There are two kinds: Callanians and Non-Callanians. The former are mostly individuals, but pay for this by having much more severe moral standards applied to them (see Callan).
Non-Callanians, on the other hand, are defined by single traits. Which is not racist at all. Obviously.
Of course, there are still single individuals who break with their races customs and redeem them that way, because, even though other cultures' traditions are great, they can't possibly be as great as our own, right?

Racism
See Death.

Rape
Salvation, if administered by a noble savage, preferably of Orcish heritage.

Rays, Manta
Ridden on saddleback despite all blatant safety hazards. Possibly immune to the Deegandrug.

Redemption
Handed out arbitrarily. Minor crimes, like murder, are redeemed easily, rendering everyone completely oblivious to them. Worse crimes, like speaking badly about the Deegans or thinking about other cultures in a somewhat critical way, however, cannot be redeemed (see Caste System). Even if they are, they still may lead to Spontaneous Fourth Caste Reemersion Syndrome.

Red Shirt Soup Wench
A very special specimen of the Fifth Caste species, this curious creature can live for as long as thirty years apart of the protagonists. However, sooner or later, in a fashion similar to lemmings' mass suicide, these beings are drawn into the proximity of First and Second Caste members, where their function is to serve them soup (though rarer sub-species have been observed to secrete other liquid beverages instead). When they do so, they produce special pheromones, which can be perceived by the current story arc's antagonist and throw him or her into a murderous frenzy, which does not end until the Red Shirt Soup Wench has been slaughtered horribly. Considering how unlikely it is that such a creature would have evolved on its own, it is probable that Red Shirt Soup Wenches have been genetically engineered by the First Caste to make their opponents look more bad-ass, and thus enhance the glory of the First Caste when they defeat them in the end.

Semashi
A mysterious people who steal beauty from other cultures and resolve any and all disputes with dance-offs. Their skin tone, like their country's name, varies from day to day. Being humans, some Semashi are allowed personalities even though they're not Callanian.

Seer
Apparently some other term for 'deity', albeit much less likeable due to its scheming, manipulative ways.

Snout
The horrible malformation of the nose/mouth-region, implanted into prisoners in Aberthast Cathedral and into any new-born child. It probably serves to improve the inhalation of the Deegandrug.

Soul Displacing Mookie Possession Syndrome (SDMPS)
Even the existance of self-insertion Mookie Sues and the wide spread of the Plot plague do not suffice sometimes for Mookie's broadcast of his enlightened world-view and ethical opinions. In such cases, the force of Mookie can temporarily take possession of a character to force him to do Mookie's bidding. The character completely turns into a mouthpiece for Mookie's messages. A much more dangerous mutation of this affliction is the Karma Balancing Soul Displacing Mookie Possession Syndrome (SDMPS-KB), where Mookie specifically possesses Third and Fourth Caste characters to force them to deal completely just and not at all exaggerated punishment on other Fourth Caste characters, such as womanizers and people who happen to be athletic, who may spontaneously pop or be mutilated to a never-ending unholy existance of eternal torment and agony. In spite of its dangerousness, this is a very important thing to the ecological balance of the Deeganverse, for it keeps the hands of First and Second Caste members free of blood, while dealing appropriately with people Mookie finds somewhat unsympathetic. See also: Mookinsertion, Plot.

Spine
Overrated. Noone in the Deeganverse uses these anymore.
Same goes for all anatomy, really.

Spontaneous Fourth Caste Reemersion Syndrome
A highly dangerous condition, lethal in 100% of all cases, so far incurable. It may occur in redeemed Third Caste members if their previous failings were grave enough (i.e. murder would not induce SFCRS, but being displeased with another culture's murdersome traditions might). The effect is an aura of Fourth Castiness in an otherwise Second Caste character, which may resurface at any time, thus causing the Deeganverse to believe the character is evil and must be purged.

Strip Slays
Pure awesomeness. averagejoe, ElfLad, Mewtarthio and Turcano are just a few of the grandiose artists who turn meager B-strips into victory with win on top.

SuperGreg
An abomination that must not be spoken of.

Tentacle Rape
Umm... let's change the subject, shall we?

Trailer
Mookie's attempts to make it seem that something is happening, or at least will happen at some point in the future. A good bunch of trailers were forgotten, thus creating the Forsaken.
Might also be a genuine attempt of Mookie to find out just what the hell he is doing. This might explain such questions like "Who is XXX?" or "What does YYY want?".

Trees
Green mountains with snow on top. Weird.

Tucklebruck Island
A place so idyllic that its occupants, dwarves and halflings, have nothing better to fight about than what type of alcohol the others like. Major exporter of bizarre, sometimes toxic beer, teddy bears, and pictures of the Dominus being punched in the balls.

TVTropes
The lifetime stealing device employed by Oracle_Hunter to fuel his ingenious evil plans (I'm on to you, pal!). Contains all the wisdom of mankind and the explanation for every dumb turn the comic takes - if you can find them.

Violin
A strange, flat, solid instrument played with the wooden back of a bow.

Werewolves
Schrödinger beings, fluctuating between people in furry suits and raging racists prone to murderous frenzies. Best left alone, which fits well with the theme of them wanting to be left alone, being an isolationist, territorial species. Except for 90% of them, who are open-minded towards strangers.

Winter Archipelago
In Winter Archipelago, Mookie mocks you!

Why We Snark - Winterwind at al. Not me, though. Not yet.
Since every few weeks somebody comes around and asks us why, if we apparently hate the Dominic Deegan comic so much, we still keep reading it instead of deleting it from our bookmarks. This post shall serve as a collection of all our stances on the comic and why we keep reading it after all, so that we can refer the person asking to this post (or just quote it), and be done with it.

Anyone who wants his opinion mentioned here - or who wants his previous statement changed - shall tell me so, so I can edit this post.

rubakhin
Honestly? I get more entertainment out of all the snark than I would probably get from Dominic Deegan if it were a good strip.

Also, it's interesting to read as a writer. For the same reason why in writing groups you're encouraged to listen to the critiques directed at other members as well. You learn a lot whenever you see the flaws in a work of fiction being dissected like this. You get a better feel for what works, what doesn't, and why.

Winterwind
Most (all?) of us used to enjoy reading DD and, when it went bad, stayed in the hope it might recover. Meanwhile, we kept discussing the comic, which invariably ended in mocking its failings. Over time, we found that mocking the comic is far more funny and enjoyable than the comic ever was even before its great fall. I presume you did not read this thread, else you would have noticed what this thread has spawned. There were many sides long parodies of Dominic's over-manipulativeness comparing the comic to 1984. There were parodies on his Mary Sue'ness, drawing an analogy to the Inquisition. There were such things as the Encyclopaedia Dominica, or just utterly bizarre and mind-blowing stories and explanations for the comic's logical fallacies. The strip slay thread, undeniably funny, is just the other side of the same coin, where this thread is the other - more of the same parody, except now in words, not in images.
Delete it from our bookmarks? Are you freakin' kidding me? Why the hell would we want to block ourselves from the fun which is this thread?

MReav
Originally I read DD because at first it was kinda cute and funny, and the consistent updates were a welcome change from some of my more favoured webcomics at the time (namely, Captain SNES). Yeah, the preachiness was annoying, as was the constant portrayal of common people as ignorant thugs, but I could skip those comics by and large. But it got a lot worse.

Now I read DD because it's kinda like watching a trainwreck in slow motion. It's entertaining in a MST3K sort of way now, going over with fellow mockers the incredible amounts of Mary Sue-ness, the idiot plots, the poor art, the attempts at the fetishistic, the rampant anti-jock sentiment (which I really think was derived from watching college films than any real human interaction), the Deus Ex Machinas, the gobs of poorly-thought-out Fantastic Racism, and all the other entertainingly bad actions of the comic and its writer.

I won't bash Mookie too much, since I don't pay for his comic nor is anyone making me keep the bookmark, but since his comic is on the web for all to see, I'll enjoy snarking about it over here.

averagejoe
If I could appreciate this thread, and strip slays, without reading the strip, I probably would. I've tried to quit several times, but these guys keep drawing me back!

M0rt
I can already say that I'm reading DD primarily out of curiosity- I want to see what will author screw up this time. But reading strips to them being mocked here is fun as hell too.

Oracle_Hunter
As I've said before, DD is compelling for me because of Mookie's guileless writing style. He is probably well read, and is in any case well familiar with a wide variety of Tropes, and he can even put a plot together in a Fridge Logic kind of way.

Yet, despite all this apparent sophistication, the man writes Eragon-level stuff. Vastly derivative and often very loopy... yet he is not like the average attempted webcomic writer. He occupies a twilight realm between Total Crap and Graphic Novel Writer and that makes him unique, and worthy of study.

Nobody else can do what Mookie does, for better or for worse.

CrazyFatGoblin
I personally read DD for literary ideas, for Mookie *does* have some good ideas, but really sucks at execution. Well, if he *did* have execution, it'd be awesome, but thats not the point.
I read DD to try and wonder what it would be like if such and such happened, or if Mookie was actually good at writing.
I read DD because Mookie is a *genius*, transporting his readers in a masterpiece of suffering so powerful, a few weak-willed ones do not even realize they are suffering, and ask for more. I read DD because I cannot look away, same as if a trainwreck was shown on constant loop.
I read DD because the madness that is Mookie is fascinating, like a book that cannot abide, yet still read to find out what happens in the end.
In short, I read DD because, quite simply, I desire what twisted knowledge Mookie has at his disposal to make us suffer so. What could I do with that knowledge?

Spiryt
The whole problem is that we (or at least I) don't hate that comic. I, in fact, think that it will be rather silly thing to hate damn poor internet comic.

I just recently discovered that making fun of it is good entertainment.

I however had Stoped Reading : some strips appeared so horrible to me (Sword of Centuries... Arghhh) that I literally hadn't dared to read them.

kukn
The reasons are varied. Mostly, I wouldn't call it hatred, at least not for me. The posts here are mostly an intellectual excersise in criticism and satire. Which is fun. (It can get a bit too much at times, a negative stance makes people see only the negative side of DD, often twisting neutral or even good aspects of a strip into yet more negativism.)

We can get a bit full of ourselves here, to be fair. But then, we're only human.

Johnny Blade
It all starts with the author, here, because you must think of DD not only as a webcomic that tells a story or tries to be funny, although it briefly (for the first few arcs) fell into the latter category. No, DD also serves as a means for Mookie to preach his opinionated world-view and show the greatness of his self-insertion, the namesake of this train wreck.
Well, I guess it’s unnecessary to discuss why a blatant Mary-Sue who knows everything about the setting, is always right, served as the chosen savior of the world and can solve almost every problem with his convoluted, logically questionable plans is not a sign of good writing.

So on to Mookie whoring out his opinions. First, it is done in a totally obvious way – the villains seldom let a chance to say how racist/sexist/homophobic they are pass, and don’t get me started on the “Nerds always get their revenge.” thing.
Second, it gets creepy from time to time. Well, often. Examples include Mookie using Celesto, one of the Third Caste (arguably) villains, to brutally kill Brett Taggerty as punishment for being a jock (by the way, there’s only one jock who isn’t stereotyped) and Mookie using Jacob, another Third Caste member, to torture Neilen as punishment for being a womanizer trying to get into Luna’s pants.
Third, Mookie is a pseudo-liberal hypocrite, though I don’t even know if he’s truly aware of this. Yes, racism is bad, but the cultures besides the United States of Wapan/Callan that he has shown us consist of noble savages oppressing their women and living in barbarism or bipolar nudist werewolves who are racists themselves. And yes, homophobia is bad, but yet Szark-who-is-gay’s sexuality is played for laughs where nobody else’s is (exception: Gregory, who now has a girl) and he is apparently unable to have any romantic feelings besides those for Dominic, shown by his reaction to Alseltio’s death. And yes, sexism is bad, too, but even though Mookie seems to be careful here, just take a look at Luna. A wonderful, intelligent, caring and whatnot woman, blah blah. Yet she obsesses about a (minor) physical detail and needs Dominic to save her from herself. Granted, this type of female character is an archetype in and of itself, but it really is a sort of damsel in distress who had the dragon holding her captive replaced by society and a bad childhood.
Fourth, Mookie likes to bash the United States in a way resembling Michael Moore. Callan is full of idiots, tries to invade another country every now and then and is run by an evil government of some sort. The Encyclopedia lists this as the Invisible King, but I guess it really is a president who came into office through election fraud by devising a system that didn’t count the votes of all Orcs in the country.

Then, there’s Mookie’s inconsistent world-building. Not only does it seem to be a really small world, given how at least Dominic apparently has friends everywhere. No, it’s also full of anachronisms which aren’t explained anywhere. It is generally assumed magic does the trick here, although we interestingly don’t get to see too many wizards besides the protagonists and the populace of Lynn’s Brook (GAH!) were quite easily scared by magic.
This leads to another point: magic in general and illusions in particular can solve everything. Everything, I tell you. Drive away an angry mob, trick extremely powerful enemies even if they know about magic, fake your death (to calm down loved ones in a frenzy, for example) and whatever else it is you want – illusions can do it.

Add in horrible writing, best shown by the recent proposal: So, we have Luna, who actively helped Dominic manipulate everyone back during the Snowsong arc, even if it meant risking the life of Greg and the rest of Barthis. And then there is Dominic, who as always been really patient when it comes to Luna being the emo crybaby she often was. But all of a sudden, Luna is pissed off by Dominic’s puppet-mastery and Dominic finds Luna’s emotional problems annoying, although they weren’t actually significant as of late – all we had was Luna running around babbling about how she feels inferior, which probably was done by Mookie to signify she still has these problems. Great. So they tell each other how annoying they are, bicker around a little, don’t resolve their problems at all, and then…marry! Yay!
I won’t even comment on the Snowsong arc with its downright bizarre jump-the-shark moments and yet another instance of Dominic saving the day with an overly complicated scheme.
Mookie’s laughable art also has been mocked to an overdue death and I wholeheartedly recommend reading the Encyclopedia entries on Balloon Boobs, Glasswood, Snout and Trees on this subject.
Actually, one Encyclopedia Dominica article is enough to prove why Dominic Deegan is bad, so I’ll just stop here. I forgot what I was going to write, anyway. Hopefully, more will come later, though.

But you shouldn’t think I hate Dominic Deegan. Most of those who post here don’t. I actually find it one of the most entertaining webcomics around, because no one can do what Mookie does. Yes, there are other webcomics which are so bad they’re funny, but Dominic Deegan actually has a setting created for it, relatively complex arcs, an extensive cast etc., yet it is a horrible train wreck that just keeps going on and on. Like Ed Wood producing comics with the subtlety of Ayn Rand’s works instead of movies.
Seriously, just look at a random DD strip, sit back, and think about it for two minutes. It may drive you insane, but it will make you giggle in a fashion implying you are in any case.
Oh, and this wonderful thread here is a great reason to love Mookie’s stillborn brainchild, too.

___________

Not exactly part of our declarations why we keep reading the comic, but, as I feel, an important message to newcomers into this thread nevertheless:

Jerthanis
If you like the strip, don't read this thread. I'm serious and am not being a jerk... this thread will indoctrinate you if you're not careful. You'll come to realize things about the writing, characters, art and so on that you would have never noticed, but once you see them, you can't stop thinking about them.

Basically, if you enjoy the comic, please continue enjoying it and don't let us ruin your fun. If, at some point, you find yourself scratching your head, dry heaving, or the like, remember that lambasting it here is still a way to enjoy it still. The sad fact is that while it would be nice to have an alternate opinion around these boards, we've all been burned by the comic, and to varying degrees we're all stubborn about our reasons for not liking it. Either way, good luck.
___________
Listen to Jerthanis here, for his words are distilled truth.

Let the snarking begin!

Mewtarthio

2008-10-18, 03:15 AM

You do realize that today's "revelation" completely invalidates the whole "not all necromancers are evil" thing, right? It's pretty obvious that Rillian no longer concerns himself with happy things like appreciating life and now spends all his time trying to save the world. Rillian is the First Necromancer: Therefore, we can assume that he developed necromancy to be all happy and stuff, but the art soon took him to lichdom and evolved into the evil zombification stuff we know and love today.

...On second thought, I kind of like this better now. Rillian's turning out to be quite a tragic character. I can't really give Mookie credit for it, though, because there's no evidence to suggest that he was thinking of Rillian when he wrote Brian's lines (and quite a bit to the contrary).

The Rose Dragon

2008-10-18, 03:38 AM

...On second thought, I kind of like this better now. Rillian's turning out to be quite a tragic character.

Now just wait until Rillian is derailed horribly. Since you sealed his fate by saying this.

lord_khaine

2008-10-18, 03:43 AM

planned or not, i also like this turn of event, makes Rilian even more interesting.

and omg, has the 5th thread allready been closed?

Jayngfet

2008-10-18, 03:46 AM

It's a few posts from page fifty so I thought a reboot would be good considering the recent turn of events.

Johnny Blade

2008-10-18, 03:51 AM

Now just wait until Rillian is derailed horribly. Since you sealed his fate by saying this.
I actually can't decide if this RetCon counts as development or derailment.
Because, while it adds some depth to Rilian, I find it hard to imagine that he, who is so focused on the role he believes he has to play (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2005-04-15) in this world, would open up to a man he might as well end up killing.

On second thought, this is derailment, although not horrible. I'll give Mookie seven more strips featuring Rilian to achieve that.

Edit: By the way, a link to the most recent thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91533) might be in order.

Jahkaivah

2008-10-18, 04:37 AM

I preferred Winterwind's thread subtitle ("snarky even in milk") , but that doesn't really matter, we can just wait untill next thread, as if that will take long :smalltongue:

Paragraph

2008-10-18, 06:13 AM

Ported in from the other thread.

Again, I don't think this derails Rilian at all. In Mookie's opinion, if you have a problem, you best deal with it if you first get some free time for yourself. Of course, Mr. M most often doesn't proceed from there, as seen with Milov, which is really bad and I hope not done now. But in the abstract, it's a sound philosophy, and it's again applied here. In the disguise as Brian, Rilian could, after all this time of being responsible and having to sacrifice his friends, becoming bitter, be himself again. Now, he's back to being the schemer he has become, and everyone hates him because of it, his problems come back to him, for him also the whole arc was just a respite - and maybe one he needed, too.

Dominic certainly did NOT need this in my opinion, not as vitally as Rilian seems to think, but actually, being Brian again has been really vital to RILIAN - so, in retrospect, it's him the vacation was about, and while it's still atrocious, this new meaning and shift of focus really accomplishes something: Dominic's really NOT important for the arc itself, it's all the others who interact with him, and it's Brian.

Simon

Morty

2008-10-18, 06:41 AM

Call me a heretic for that if you wish, but today's strip wasn't bad at all. At least if you interpret it as I did when I read it, i.e that Rilian's "plan" was just an excuse for him to feel human for a little while. Which doesn't make the disaster that was the vacation arc any more tolerable, but is better than "I need to enlist the aid of people from the whole world to make one jackass seer and his airhead emo girlfriend feel better".

The Rose Dragon

2008-10-18, 07:10 AM

Hey, Rillian is still not derailed and is still awesome.

I was just saying, when you say something remotely positive about someone, that person tends to be derailed real fast.

I did that with Gregory once, and look what happened to him now.

Spiryt

2008-10-18, 07:15 AM

Can you suffer from constipation while being some undead - thing?

Cause Rillian can.

About even another "plot twist":

http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~cema/courses/CSE3325/images/lect1/munchScream.jpg

HidaTsuzua

2008-10-18, 08:02 AM

I'm not entirely sure how I feel like "Brian is Rilian!" plot point. Reading back over the vacation arc, the "Brian is Rilian's old self" seems to work. It's not really hinted at all and Rilian is still deceiving Dominic. The only thing really out of place is the "EEEE!" after knowing Dominic met Rilian. Does this mean Rilian was really a squealing fat man? So overall, I think it's a retcon, but as retcons go, it's not too bad. There's no foreshadowing but no real wall-bangers.

So while my money is still on Rilian getting derailed, it's not yet.

RationalGoblin

2008-10-18, 09:38 AM

I actually liked this strip. Rilian's always been a tragic character, and this only compounds it. He used to be a jolly, happy, kind person, but as a result of having to kill people to save the world, he became cold and cruel. I think that makes Rilian the deepest character in DD at the moment.

And, even if it is Derailment, this seems to be a positive version of it.

One thing that hasn't been answered, and that I want to know, was Rilian originally fat? Or did putting rolls of skin, on a complete skeleton simply make him as large as Brian was?

And wait, why did he choose the name of "Brian"? Was Brian his original name, and Rilian his last name or new name or whatever?

Winterwind

2008-10-18, 09:51 AM

I concur, this revelation was probably the most graceful way out for Mookie, as far as Brillian is concerned, and I kinda like the resulting character. Whether this was intended by Mookie from the start, I still am not sure.

However, it still does not make the whole "conspiracy" any more sensible. It doesn't change anything about those "tests" being particularly unsuited for testing anything, it doesn't explain why these people agreed to whatever they were meant to do without being told why (and I do not buy this "they wanted to do it anyway" line. It might have worked this way for Milov or Scarlatti, but the Groin Puncher? I bet without any explanation telling him to do something would be the best way to ensure he did not!), why they are there now, what role some of them played in this (though I suspect somebody is going to ask the dragon what it is doing there tomorrow, with a long winded talking head explanation*1 following), and some of Brillian's utterings (like the 'squee!') do not make any sense whatsoever, with this new explanation of Brian being his true self even less so, because this implies Brillian would not have tried to act (as he would have to to react in the manner he did) but acted completely naturally instead.

*1 As opposed to a talking head explosion, which would be totally awesome.

And another thing that's really bugging me: Rillian is drawn rather differently this time (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-10-18) than he was the last time (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2005-06-03) we saw him. And he is quite exemplary for the evolution of Mookie's art - the lines are cleaner, sure, but whether the overall result is better is debatable at best.

InkEyes

2008-10-18, 10:27 AM

Meh, the development given to Rilian is interesting and it gives depth to the character, so points to Mookie for developing a character. I still don't see how the global conspiracy is necessary, though. If it had been Rilian by himself, it would've been way more awesome.

The Rose Dragon

2008-10-18, 10:27 AM

I totally expect Rillian to say "Curses! Foiled again!" and proceed to utterly annihilate the entire congregation with a barrage of illusions.

After all, there is nothing that can't be solved with liberal use of illusions.

Johnny Blade

2008-10-18, 11:16 AM

So while my money is still on Rilian getting derailed, it's not yet.
Well, the last time he appeared he was called cold by one of his few friends, left Luna to die (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2005-04-17) because she had served her purpose and more or less said that he saw Klo Tark's sacrifice as weakness (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2005-06-03).
Now he devised a plot to test Dominic, risking the destruction of the world by doing this, to see if he'd have to slay him instead of simply killing him.
And now it's revealed that he did this in part to be himself again after hundreds of years during which he apparently didn't feel the need to do so.

That's either very significant character development in the chronological sense - Rilian changed in the meantime - which could (and since it's Mookie, probably would) result in Dominic becoming an even worse Mary-Sue.
Or it's derailment.

Oracle_Hunter

2008-10-18, 11:21 AM

averagejoe

2008-10-18, 11:30 AM

We've got the epic thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53160), three hundred posts, OVER NINE THOUSAAAND posts.

I think you mean three hundred pages.

From the previous thread:

You know, I've heard it said that you can tell the mark of greatness when it provokes a great reaction.

How many pages worth of reaction has Mookie provoked so far? :smallwink:

I actually touched on this idea awhile ago. My thesis was basically that, while we snarkers consider DD to be a badly done comic, we all nonetheless like the comic. I said more, but I don't feel like trying to reproduce it.

On today's development:

Maybe it made Rilian a little more interesting, but in truth, this isn't anything that couldn't have been guessed at before. All Rilian has now is a backstory, and those are hugely overrated as story devices. I mean, "forsaken humanity for power" was always his whole shtick, all this does is put a face to his previous incarnation. Anyways, I'd also argue that Brian was a more interesting character than Rilian is or ever was; just awhile ago we were in fair agreement that the SFM was the best thing to happen to DD in awhile, and now you're all rejoicing that it turns out he was a much less interesting character all along and will never be seen again?

Also, this does derail his character a little bit. Today's strip was just Rilian saying, "I don't have emotions (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2005-04-15), and sometimes that makes me sad."

Edit: @OH: An excellent point, sir.

Clockwork_Seal

2008-10-18, 11:34 AM

Brian being the way Rilian actually was isn't a revelation at all. Terracciano has pretty much had Rilian exist to be the 'No ur wrong the stereotype isn't always rite >=O' guy since his inception. I mean, sure, he also had Dex. Whoopie. When was the last time Dex was even halfway relevant?

It's acceptable for Brian to be Rilian. It honestly isn't even that stupid, EXCEPT when taken in context. It doesn't make sense for him to be Rilian because Rilian's entire plan makes exactly no sense. The reasons for this have been pointed out and recycled repeatedly. If this weren't such a transparent ass-pull, I might be able to look at it and think, 'Terracciano had this in mind for Rilian from the start.' But no. It is very, very obvious that he didn't, and he had to come up with SOME justification for Rilian acting like a character who was, originally, a completely different character.

Johnny Blade

2008-10-18, 11:34 AM

@ Oracle_Hunter:
Huh?
I thought the main reason behind the trip still was to test Dominic and Rilian just decided to enjoy his time while keeping tabs on him.
(By hanging out with Dominic and Luna, which is very Mary-Sueish indeed and, considering he might have ended up killing Dominic and possibly Luna too, a little deranged.).

But I guess your interpretation...I actually don't want to think about this any further.

Anyways, I'd also argue that Brian was a more interesting character than Rilian is or ever was; just awhile ago we were in fair agreement that the SFM was the best thing to happen to DD in awhile, and now you're all rejoicing that it turns out he was a much less interesting character all along and will never be seen again?
I concur. Also, one of the things Brian had going for him was that he offered another perspective on necromancy, which is now lost.

Paragraph

2008-10-18, 11:51 AM

Ugh. So, people like today's strip. OK, I can live with that, but do you realize the subtext here?

RILLIAN'S "CONSPIRACY" WAS JUST AN EXCUSE
TO HANG OUT WITH DOMINIC

The ancient, immortal Necromancer who spends all his time saving the world shanghaied various peoples from distant lands for at least a month (comic time) to make Dominic's trip super-special-awesome. Then he makes up some excuse about "needing to test the Oracle's stability" (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-10-17) when in fact, all he told them to do is "do what you normally do, but work really hard at hanging out with Dominic." (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-10-18)

Dragon saw through this deception, and says it straight-out. Do you see what Mookie did? He turned Dominic's puppeteer into a Mookie Fanboi!

If all that Rillian wanted to do was play-act as his old self, he could have done it with anyone, since nobody really knows who he is. Heck, he could have gone on a cruise any time he wanted. But no, he needed to go on a trip with Mookie-D and make sure they both had a fabulous time. :smallfurious:

It makes me sick, it does. :smallfrown:
I have to disagree. Rilian has two urges:

1. The important one (for the world): Watch over Dominic while he has his "challenges" and kill him if he shows signs of mindbreak.

2. The selfish one: Be "himself" for a time.

This way, he could kill two birds with one shot. He tells everybody that they have to put Dominic under strain, and they agree, because they would not have to go out of their way for it (and truth to be told, they don't; if you look at it from a positive viewpoint, indeed, Milov's test isn't that great of a strain on his relationship with Dominic. Why? Because he doesn't like Rilian's plan - he just doesn't want to really test it and throws a party instead).

Later on, he reveals to everybody that he, unbeknownst to them, was there the whole time to watch over Dominic lest he show signs of reacting negatively; THEN they call his bluff, assuming that he just did this to be Brian.

Simon

Oracle_Hunter

2008-10-18, 12:06 PM

I thought the main reason behind the trip still was to test Dominic and Rilian just decided to enjoy his time while keeping tabs on him.
(By hanging out with Dominic and Luna, which is very Mary-Sueish indeed and, considering he might have ended up killing Dominic and possibly Luna too, a little deranged.).

But I guess your interpretation...I actually don't want to think about this any further.

Quite all right, but I shall elaborate all the same.

There are two possible interpretations to Rillian's Plan:
(1) Rillian is telling the truth (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-10-17), and his aim for this entire trip was to "monitor and test" Dom & Sub - I mean, Luna - as they "reacted to different stresses." If this is correct, then Rillian failed on many levels.
- The trip wasn't stressful at all (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-10-14) and everyone enjoyed it.

- Rillian's proposed stresses are incredibly weak. "A link to their foes in the Storm of Souls" "A strained friendship tested once more" - seriously? These are "stresses" that can really test the mental stability of someone who has entered the mind of a Demon Lord and has scried both Cosmic Horrors and an entire War in Hell?

- The most dangerous and stressful part of the whole trip - the WET - had Rillian sitting his ass on the airship while Dom & Sub wandered about with an untrained guide in an area of extreme peril. How was Rillian supposed to kill him before he went to Mindbreak if he doesn't even know where Dominic is. Heck, Rillian didn't even have anything planned for WET!

So if Rillian is telling the truth, then this whole trip was an utter fiasco and he should not be pleased with its outcome.

(2) Rillian is lying, and the Dragon is correct (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-10-18). This was just an excuse for Rillian to put on his old flesh and pretend to be himself for awhile. This is quite plausible because:
- Rillian didn't really give his pawns any instruction aside from hang out with Dom & Sub and act like they always do.

- Rillian spent most of the trip befriending Dominic and engaging in jovial interaction. He didn't do anything to really "test" Dominic the whole time, so it seemed like he just wanted the interaction.

- I Just Want To Be Normal (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IJustWantToBeNormal) works easily with someone who considers their activity a "role" (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2005-04-15) which requires him to be The Stoic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheStoic).

Now, if this is the most plausible explanation for the Vacation Arc (which I think it is) then Mookie has made it so that, in order to feel normal, the ancient and cunning Necromancer decided to hang out with Dominic and make sure Dominic had a fabulous time. This. Is. Ridiculous.

Yes, I know that Mookie probably would have needed to have Rillian hang out with Dominic to do this particular reveal, but there was no reason for Rillian to create this elaborate set-up to make sure everything was super-special-awesome.

Heck, Rillian could have just been a passenger on the ship who would socialize with everyone, and maybe get to know Dominic. Rillian would get his socialization, and maybe Mookie could have focused on some of the other passengers on the ship. Everyone would go on adventures as normal, and his "world building" would still be done - but rather than just being a "Dominic is so awesome" Arc, Mookie could have made this a character-building Arc ending with the Rillian reveal. But no, Mookie had to make it so that the single biggest Chessmaster (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Chessmaster) dropped everything he was doing to arrange a conspiracy to make sure Dom & Sub had a good time... and then go along for the ride.

This makes Rillian the biggest Dom-Fan in all of Dominion, and that is terrible :smallyuk:

EDIT:
@Paragraph - the problem here is what I said above: if Rillian wasn't really going to test Dominic, then why the conspiracy? Rillian could have just booked a ticket, actually gone with Dominic and Luna when they were wandering around the world, and observed whether or not Dominic was still unstable. Instead he chatted them up on the airship, and then sent them to each of his pawns (who he had instructed to pay attention to Dom & Sub!). Why?

Morty

2008-10-18, 12:10 PM

...
Curse you, Oracle Hunter. It was the first plot turn in a long while that wasn't awful and you had to ruin it by analyzing it. :smallannoyed::smalltongue:

Nevrmore

2008-10-18, 12:13 PM

Oracle_Hunter

2008-10-18, 12:16 PM

Well, on the one hand, I like the idea of an over-optimistic, jolly ******* being turned into a dour, fatalistic, taciturn *******. But on the other hand, it annoys me how Rilian was apparently using his stupid plan as an excuse to be himself again. That doesn't make any sense. If Rilian wanted to act like his old self, he'd just do it. I don't think he's the type of guy who'd be worried about his image. I doubt he cares if his other thousand-year-old pals think he's stupid. What, is wearing his old skin some sort of psychological crutch or something? He can't "be himself" unless he can look down and not see his feet? I don't know, I just don't like the idea of a character that I usually enjoy secretly pining to be a character who aggravates me a lot.

No, the skin makes sense. Remember, Brian is a very friendly, personable type, which means he likes interacting with people. It's really hard for someone looking like Rillian (who, apparently everyone knows about) to do that. I mean, his appearance is really unsettling. So the Brian Suit makes good sense.

What doesn't make sense is the conspiracy. Worse, the only way it makes sense makes Rillian some sort of Mookie-D Fanboi :smallyuk:

Paragraph

2008-10-18, 12:23 PM

if Rillian wasn't really going to test Dominic, then why the conspiracy? Rillian could have just booked a ticket, actually gone with Dominic and Luna when they were wandering around the world, and observed whether or not Dominic was still unstable. Instead he chatted them up on the airship, and then sent them to each of his pawns (who he had instructed to pay attention to Dom & Sub!). Why?
Several possible explanations. I'm a bit unsure about Rilian's motivations myself, but I think those are twofold. He really wants to test out if Dominic can withstand stress, and he really wants to be Brian. It's not only one thing or the other thing, and he doesn't have to have a single motivation; it's both.

The "great purpose", the testing, he tells everyone, and he makes sure that they go to their testing stations. His egoistic purpose, the being Brian, he wanted to keep a secret but failed.

As to the tests themselves: The Dominic who is tested here is not exactly the Dominic who has bested Demon Lords. He did do this, yes, but he is ALSO the Dominic that had a breakdown over candy. Which is not that great an illogical thing; I'm a stickler for the "the one drop that overflows the barrel"-theory. So, he is on a pleasant cruise and he has a good time; it's been the height of a series of "good times" he had recently, in COMPARISON to what he had to suffer through before. So the tests don't really have to be, they MUST not be of an epic difficulty; we are speaking about a success-pampered, but still unstable person here.

Look at it this way: If you know you're in the fan when crap hits it, you will laugh about a friend crying over a broken love, when you just lost your leg. If you have the time of your life and this friend confronts you with problems, not so much. Same item: You are, again, being admired because you are so awesome, then someone punches you in the balls. Will you punch back? Will you just not understand how anyone could be so mean as to ruin your good time?

Conclusion: If you are happy and ANY conflict comes up, it's a serious one. And maybe we have a third, unmentioned reason behind all of this: Perhaps Rilian really wanted Dominic to have a good time in the whole of it. He knows, after all, that there is a fan and a bucket of crap waiting for the Oracle. It's not like Rilian to care about the feelings of others, but it certainly is like Brian...don't you think?

Simon

Felius

2008-10-18, 12:25 PM

Yes. If the "tests" were more testing, we could buy that it was all a plan from the start.

If he told them the plan was to get Dominic to relax so he doesn't destroy the world, and he needed to keep an eye on him so if he starts to go on mind break and destroy the world he could kill him, we could accept it, barelly, but we could.

Now, how it's presented, it hurts and it burns.

Oracle_Hunter

2008-10-18, 12:52 PM

As to the tests themselves: The Dominic who is tested here is not exactly the Dominic who has bested Demon Lords. He did do this, yes, but he is ALSO the Dominic that had a breakdown over candy. Which is not that great an illogical thing; I'm a stickler for the "the one drop that overflows the barrel"-theory. So, he is on a pleasant cruise and he has a good time; it's been the height of a series of "good times" he had recently, in COMPARISON to what he had to suffer through before. So the tests don't really have to be, they MUST not be of an epic difficulty; we are speaking about a success-pampered, but still unstable person here.

But we're not talking about some guy who might become a Person of Mass Destruction (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PersonOfMassDestruction) if he's not pacified; we're talking about someone that Rillian fully expects to take on the greatest threats in the world.

Rillian sees that Dominic is currently at his weakest, yes? So, if Dominic were to ever break, it would probably be now. Therefore, this is a prime opportunity for Rillian to see whether Dominic's mind will shatter, or if it's inherently stable.

So... if you're going to do that, why not, I dunno, have some actual tests? He doesn't need to stare down Cthulhu, sure, but maybe in Elfland he could have been faced with one of Evil Elf's last-chancers who challenged Dominic to justify his actions as a Guardian of Balance, rather than one of Law? That would have tested Dominic's convictions, and could also stress his mind. No, instead Rillian makes sure that a repentant 3rd Caste member is there to tell Dominic the "Secret History of the Elves" and evoke pity and sadness.

Rillian did not set up a single challenge that would have tested any characteristic or quality of Dominic, in any way, shape or form. Dominic had a swell time, and aside from some physical comedy, nothing bad happened to him. No, the test claim is clearly bunk, or Rillian is really, really dumb.

Conclusion: If you are happy and ANY conflict comes up, it's a serious one. And maybe we have a third, unmentioned reason behind all of this: Perhaps Rilian really wanted Dominic to have a good time in the whole of it. He knows, after all, that there is a fan and a bucket of crap waiting for the Oracle. It's not like Rilian to care about the feelings of others, but it certainly is like Brian...don't you think?

Like I said before - there was no real conflict. Worse, the Groin Puncher didn't give Dominic time to react - Luna took over immediately (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-07-09).

BTW, I'm all for Rillian deciding that he needed to "cool down" Dominic with a nice, relaxing trip. After all, an overheated gun barrel is no good in the next fight. However, Dominic would have had a fine time just going to places that Rillian knew were awesome, or just drinking on the cruise - there was no reason to construct a massive world-spanning conspiracy for this. In fact, Rillian's actions here mirror exactly the actions of Dominic's students in "Oh Snap." Chew on that for a bit, and see if you like the taste. I don't.

Nevrmore

2008-10-18, 12:53 PM

No, the skin makes sense. Remember, Brian is a very friendly, personable type, which means he likes interacting with people. It's really hard for someone looking like Rillian (who, apparently everyone knows about) to do that. I mean, his appearance is really unsettling. So the Brian Suit makes good sense.
So then why doesn't Rilian just always wear his Brian suit so he can interact with people?

Oracle_Hunter

2008-10-18, 12:57 PM

So then why doesn't Rilian just always wear his Brian suit so he can interact with people?

Maybe he does, when he's not "working." It would explain why he's kept it all these years.

But when he's on business, his skeletal form lends a little credibility, no? Sometimes you have to be a cold, soulless manipulator to get things done. It's a classic Secret Identity (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SecretIdentity), to be honest.

Morty

2008-10-18, 12:58 PM

So then why doesn't Rilian just always wear his Brian suit so he can interact with people?

Because those people aren't Dominic. Duh.

Khosan

2008-10-18, 01:01 PM

So then why doesn't Rilian just always wear his Brian suit so he can interact with people?

He needs to put the lotion on its skin, which is hard for a zombie.

Gez

2008-10-18, 01:02 PM

So then why doesn't Rilian just always wear his Brian suit so he can interact with people?

I suppose he needs to bring it to the laundromat from time to time. And the seamstress as well since apparently the only way to remove it is to tear it away.

Tom_Violence

2008-10-18, 01:06 PM

The only way any of this could make any sense would be if someone tried to use the crappy explanation of "but all this so-called trouble made Dominic a better person and more able to withstand stress now". Any actual stress would make him go kapow, but the cruise on its own would have left him too sappy.

Not that I buy that for a second, but its the only way I can think of explaining it.

averagejoe

2008-10-18, 01:09 PM

Maybe he does, when he's not "working." It would explain why he's kept it all these years.

But when he's on business, his skeletal form lends a little credibility, no? Sometimes you have to be a cold, soulless manipulator to get things done. It's a classic Secret Identity (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SecretIdentity), to be honest.

No, Nevermore's got a point. The whole thing was that Rilian set up this thing partially to be able to be himself, as was said in today's. That clearly means that he doesn't normally feel like he's able to be "Brian," and has to set up these special circumstances with Dom and Luna to do it.

Clockwork_Seal

2008-10-18, 02:02 PM

Which is not that great an illogical thing; I'm a stickler for the "the one drop that overflows the barrel"-theory.

That doesn't really work when the barrel is full of 'the world is unilaterally a better place because you are in it and everything is going swell.'

Wraith

2008-10-18, 02:16 PM

Despite everything I have learned from this webcomic and this forum, I hope you will all forgive me for being optimistic.

We only have the Dragon's word for it that 'Brain' was Rillian's real skin, and until tomorrow - if then, even - we won't know for sure that this is the case. I for one am hoping that Rillian turns around and points out that the freaking Dragon is just being childish and petulant.

If we're really good little boys and girls, he might even decide that the Dragon is wasting his time and disintegrate it on the spot. "Happy Shiny Brian" that, you oversized gecko!

As for why Brian/Rillian didn't try to do anything in the WET, I think I have a theory; the WET distorts magic and makes it do strange things, whereas both the Brian-Suit and the zombie-like Lich are constantly sustained by magic. A reasonable analogy would be us not wanting to walk into a place that makes your blood boil and then turn into a flock of canaries while you're still using it.

The hypothesis is open to conjecture, of course, as it assumes that Magic on Dominia has at least some logic to it in contrary to everything we've witnessed so far....

Gez

2008-10-18, 02:24 PM

As for why Brian/Rillian didn't try to do anything in the WET

Knowing Mookie, I'd expect him to reveal the two wizards who did it were Bort and Brian. The aftermath left the place a chaotic wasteland, Bort a mutant monster, and Rilian a zombie. That explains why Bort wasn't invited to the Worldwide Conspiracy Debriefing.

Johnny Blade

2008-10-18, 03:18 PM

Quite all right, but I shall elaborate all the same.

There are two possible interpretations to Rillian's Plan:
(1) Rillian is telling the truth (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-10-17), and his aim for this entire trip was to "monitor and test" Dom & Sub - I mean, Luna - as they "reacted to different stresses." If this is correct, then Rillian failed on many levels.
- The trip wasn't stressful at all (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-10-14) and everyone enjoyed it.

- Rillian's proposed stresses are incredibly weak. "A link to their foes in the Storm of Souls" "A strained friendship tested once more" - seriously? These are "stresses" that can really test the mental stability of someone who has entered the mind of a Demon Lord and has scried both Cosmic Horrors and an entire War in Hell?

- The most dangerous and stressful part of the whole trip - the WET - had Rillian sitting his ass on the airship while Dom & Sub wandered about with an untrained guide in an area of extreme peril. How was Rillian supposed to kill him before he went to Mindbreak if he doesn't even know where Dominic is. Heck, Rillian didn't even have anything planned for WET!

So if Rillian is telling the truth, then this whole trip was an utter fiasco and he should not be pleased with its outcome.

(2) Rillian is lying, and the Dragon is correct (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-10-18). This was just an excuse for Rillian to put on his old flesh and pretend to be himself for awhile. This is quite plausible because:
- Rillian didn't really give his pawns any instruction aside from hang out with Dom & Sub and act like they always do.

- Rillian spent most of the trip befriending Dominic and engaging in jovial interaction. He didn't do anything to really "test" Dominic the whole time, so it seemed like he just wanted the interaction.

- I Just Want To Be Normal (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IJustWantToBeNormal) works easily with someone who considers their activity a "role" (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2005-04-15) which requires him to be The Stoic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheStoic).

Now, if this is the most plausible explanation for the Vacation Arc (which I think it is) then Mookie has made it so that, in order to feel normal, the ancient and cunning Necromancer decided to hang out with Dominic and make sure Dominic had a fabulous time. This. Is. Ridiculous.

Yes, I know that Mookie probably would have needed to have Rillian hang out with Dominic to do this particular reveal, but there was no reason for Rillian to create this elaborate set-up to make sure everything was super-special-awesome.

Heck, Rillian could have just been a passenger on the ship who would socialize with everyone, and maybe get to know Dominic. Rillian would get his socialization, and maybe Mookie could have focused on some of the other passengers on the ship. Everyone would go on adventures as normal, and his "world building" would still be done - but rather than just being a "Dominic is so awesome" Arc, Mookie could have made this a character-building Arc ending with the Rillian reveal. But no, Mookie had to make it so that the single biggest Chessmaster (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Chessmaster) dropped everything he was doing to arrange a conspiracy to make sure Dom & Sub had a good time... and then go along for the ride.

This makes Rillian the biggest Dom-Fan in all of Dominion, and that is terrible :smallyuk:
So, in short, it's either an utterly ridiculous scheme that makes no sense but is supposed to because the talking heads say so or a whole new level of Dominic's Mary-Sueism?

I don't think it's possible to make any kind of statement as to which is more likely to be true.

(At least we can settle on one thing: It's a painfully moronic ass pull.)

Knowing Mookie, I'd expect him to reveal the two wizards who did it were Bort and Brian. The aftermath left the place a chaotic wasteland, Bort a mutant monster, and Rilian a zombie. That explains why Bort wasn't invited to the Worldwide Conspiracy Debriefing.
I expect more or less the same, but I think the other wizard was Helixa. One of them was female (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-08-06), after all.
Although, with Bort, you never know...

Of course, it could also be someone we don't know about (like Ethelia :smallamused:), but Mookie introducing a new character when he could as well reuse an old one is about as likely as a First Caste jock.

Gez

2008-10-18, 03:24 PM

I expect more or less the same, but I think the other wizard was Helixa. One of them was female (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-08-06), after all.
Although, with Bort, you never know...

Nah, it would just be revealed kilts were in fashion at the time. :smallamused:

Nerd-o-rama

2008-10-18, 03:29 PM

Who said Bort started off male?

Or that he is male...

Johnny Blade

2008-10-18, 03:39 PM

Who said Bort started off male?

Or that he is male...
That's what I meant: You never know.

But I'm pretty sure Rilian had a hand in the Wild Edge Territory excursion too and both Stunt and Bort were briefed by him. Mookie will just add that little tidbit of information once it dawns him that the Wild Edge was the only dangerous part of the vacation.
I mean, do you remember the farewell scene (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-09-02) where Bort suddenly revealed that he could actually speak and even knew at least one word in English Callanian English?
That should lend itself to some easy RetConning. It would probably make little sense if at all, but it is Mookie we're talking about.

Nevrmore

2008-10-18, 03:42 PM

Khosan

2008-10-18, 03:50 PM

My prediction: He will do just that, telling off the Dragon for even thinking such a stupid thing as Rilian pining for feelings and interaction with people. Then, in the next strip, it will show him leave, sigh mournfully, and reveal that he really does want his life as Brian back and he was just putting on an act with the Dragon.

And then I'll cry blood and vomit.

Ah-ha, you forget. Tomorrow is Sunday.

That means we're only going to get a picture of Rilian in front of a sunset looking mournful while revealing he wishes he was normal.

Gez

2008-10-18, 04:53 PM

And then dragon will rip its dragon skin and it'll be revealed it was a disguise for Bort. :smalleek:

Mr. Scaly

2008-10-18, 05:08 PM

Gez

2008-10-18, 05:31 PM

Nerd-o-rama

2008-10-18, 05:32 PM

We all know it wasn't going to happen so it's just a cheap way to inject a pathetic dose of drama.Technically, you could say that about everything bad that looks like it might happen to Dominic.

Castel

2008-10-18, 05:37 PM

Getting to remember how he used to be was a bonus, not a major part of the plan.

The only thing that bothers me is: How do we know he is not always like that when He's not around world-destroying events? We can only take the dragons word for it, right now.

For all we know, he either hangs around in his Necrocave all day, being all stoic and watching what the people of importance to the world are doing (read The Deegans), or maybe he hangs around in some town in his Brian suit being jolly necromancer all day. And why shouldn't he? He wants to keep a cool image in case Dominic scries on him?. Nobody knows at this point, all the evidence we have is the word of a character with 4 or 5 appearances in-comic.

Gez

2008-10-18, 05:42 PM

Technically, you could say that about everything bad that looks like it might happen to Dominic.

Yeah, but in this case it doesn't even look like it might have happened since the threat is only revealed after it's made irrelevant.

Trazoi

2008-10-18, 05:49 PM

It depends which way the comic goes in the next couple of strips as to what I think of this added element of drama. If taken the right way it could be a positive element, but given how everything was handled in the vacation arc I'm sceptical to say the least.

My biggest beef with this is that after an entire arc chockers with people all across the Deeganverse having their spirits cheered by the appearance of Dominic, it also seems that Rilian the First Necromancer needed his Dom-fix. If this was in isolation from the rest of the arc, it wouldn't set off my Mary Sue overload alarm nearly as much.

My second concern is that I figure there's at least a 50-50 chance will be dealt with tritely in the Sunday splash page and then instantly forgotten as the strip loses interest. I'm doubting this will buck the trend of interesting plot hooks or opportunities for interesting character development to be instantly abandoned.

Mr. Scaly

2008-10-18, 06:11 PM

We all know it wasn't going to happen so it's just a cheap way to inject a pathetic dose of drama.

Technically you could say that about any work of fiction which involves volatile characters being watched by others.

Friv

2008-10-18, 06:30 PM

You people keep having to remind me that it's Sunday tomorrow.

I could have had another fourteen hours of blissful ignorance. Instead, I'm sitting here imagining all the ways that the Sunday Splash could go terribly, terribly wrong.

Curse you! :smallmad:

FoE

2008-10-18, 06:43 PM

Dragon saw through this deception, and says it straight-out. Do you see what Mookie did? He turned Dominic's puppeteer into a Mookie Fanboi!

By the gods, you're right! Rillian never liked Dominic or Luna; hell, he left the latter behind. But now he's just another Second Caste!

DAMN YOU, MOOKIE!

Ah-ha, you forget. Tomorrow is Sunday.

That means we're only going to get a picture of Rilian in front of a sunset looking mournful while revealing he wishes he was normal.

Five gp says he sheds a single tear. :smalltongue:

Johnny Blade

2008-10-18, 06:50 PM

I bet the splash page will be a flashback. I know it's strange, but I just have the feeling.
If I'm wrong, my betting debt slay for tomorrow will be an epic one. ("Epic" meaning 20+ panels.)

Gez

2008-10-18, 06:53 PM

I could have had another fourteen hours of blissful ignorance. Instead, I'm sitting here imagining all the ways that the Sunday Splash could go terribly, terribly wrong.

"And that's how I like it, yeah, that's how I want it to be..."

My reason for following DD is to watch Mookie's meticulous exploration of the myriad ways in which one can ruin a story. :smallbiggrin:

Johnny Blade

2008-10-18, 06:59 PM

My reason for following DD is to watch Mookie's meticulous exploration of the myriad ways in which one can ruin a story. :smallbiggrin:
Don't we all? (Well, actually, we don't, but whatever.)
And think, he even managed to ruin the vacation "arc" twice!
Once while doing it, and another time when RetConning it.

There is some sort of genius in this kind of failure, and beauty as well.

HidaTsuzua

2008-10-18, 07:17 PM

I think the big issue is that Mookie has exhausted all possible respect from us. If Dominic wasn't near perfect example of a Mary Sue, we'll be okay with Rilian wanting to hang out with him (maybe due to the fact Dominic saved the world too). If so many plots weren't brutally strangled in the crib, we might look forward to new plots. If Luna was anything more than First Puppet, we'll care about her. So here's a question, can Mookie ever regain this level of basic storytelling trust? If he wrote a decent arc? Multiple Arcs? Never?

averagejoe

2008-10-18, 07:23 PM

Technically you could say that about any work of fiction which involves volatile characters being watched by others.

Not really; I mean, I'm sure that there are some you could say that about, but I'm sure there are also some that are well written. Saying, "Oh, by the way guys, Dominic was in danger the whole time! :smallwink:" is pretty cheap. This isn't a terrible idea (in fact, we rarely accuse Mookie's ideas of being bad), and could have been pulled off well, but as it is the whole thing is a wreck.

Gez

2008-10-18, 07:34 PM

Don't we all? (Well, actually, we don't, but whatever.)
And think, he even managed to ruin the vacation "arc" twice!
Once while doing it, and another time when RetConning it.

There is some sort of genius in this kind of failure, and beauty as well.

Indeed.

Hey, can we get this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4498145&postcount=319) in that "Why we snark" box in the first post?

Oracle_Hunter

2008-10-18, 08:05 PM

I think people are putting too much critique into this. Rilian would have killed Dominic if he'd gone nuts...somehow I doubt that being a sue-fan means that you'd kill the object of your suedom. So what if he wore the Brian suit along? If he'd came as himself then Dominic would have figured something was going wrong, and if he'd stayed away to scry on him or something he wouldn't have been on hand to vapourise him. Getting to remember how he used to be was a bonus, not a major part of the plan.

But... why the conspiracy then? Couldn't Rillian just have been a fellow, conspicuous passenger in his Brian Suit who followed Mookie-D around, keeping an eye out for his mental stability? I mean, look at it - Brian never followed Dom & Sub while they were visiting the supposed "stress points." If Rillian needed to be close at hand to take care of a potential Mindbreak, why was he always off doing his own thing?

The whole conspiracy doesn't hang together as a "test Dominic for instability, and kill him if he is unstable" thing. As I've stated before (I'm sure it was tl;dr, which is fine :smallredface:) the whole "conspiracy" looks more like preparing for a surprise party. You make sure that everyone that the Guest of Honor wants to see is there, and make sure that they have a memorable time. Worst of all, Rillian only seems to spend his time with Dom either teaching him to like Necromancers (like himself) or just having a good time.

Put in context with everything else on this Arc, and it really looks like Rillian just wanted to make sure that Dominic had a great time on his trip, and that he would be able to hang out with Dominic and become his friend. It seems like the sort of thing that Prento (or any of Dom's students) would do, if they had the chance...
that is to say, the actions of a Fanboi. :smallfrown:

Mr. Scaly

2008-10-18, 08:08 PM

Not really; I mean, I'm sure that there are some you could say that about, but I'm sure there are also some that are well written. Saying, "Oh, by the way guys, Dominic was in danger the whole time! :smallwink:" is pretty cheap. This isn't a terrible idea (in fact, we rarely accuse Mookie's ideas of being bad), and could have been pulled off well, but as it is the whole thing is a wreck.

I didn't think it was that bad. It makes sense actually...Dominic went on the trip to relax but suppose they were attacked by sky pirates or dragons or something? Cue mind break and lots and lots of deaths. This way Rilian got to keep an eye on Dominic and set up the whole test thing.

Mr. Scaly

2008-10-18, 08:27 PM

But... why the conspiracy then? Couldn't Rillian just have been a fellow, conspicuous passenger in his Brian Suit who followed Mookie-D around, keeping an eye out for his mental stability? I mean, look at it - Brian never followed Dom & Sub while they were visiting the supposed "stress points." If Rillian needed to be close at hand to take care of a potential Mindbreak, why was he always off doing his own thing?

The whole conspiracy doesn't hang together as a "test Dominic for instability, and kill him if he is unstable" thing. As I've stated before (I'm sure it was tl;dr, which is fine :smallredface:) the whole "conspiracy" looks more like preparing for a surprise party. You make sure that everyone that the Guest of Honor wants to see is there, and make sure that they have a memorable time. Worst of all, Rillian only seems to spend his time with Dom either teaching him to like Necromancers (like himself) or just having a good time.

Put in context with everything else on this Arc, and it really looks like Rillian just wanted to make sure that Dominic had a great time on his trip, and that he would be able to hang out with Dominic and become his friend. It seems like the sort of thing that Prento (or any of Dom's students) would do, if they had the chance... that is to say, the actions of a Fanboi. :smallfrown:

Partially because it would have looked suspicious if the same guy followed them around everywhere they went. And partially because, as they said before, these tests weren't mind shattering. In Elf land (forget the name) he was reintroduced to the Chosen and their evil. In Aquilestra there was the blessed hydra's song. Then in Semash there was Scarlatti's problem. Each test was a prod, not a whack with a sledgehammer. A test to see how disturbed Dominic was.

And as for making sure he had a good time...well, maybe Rilian did want that on some level. I'm sure he doesn't WANT to kill him. And helping him to relax...heck, that's what the whole trip was about.

FoE

2008-10-18, 08:35 PM

I was just archive-trawling and I noticed this strip. (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-05-17) The sixth panel got me laughing and now I can't stop.

Luna: Dominic, let me answer the door. You've only got one leg.

Thank you, Captain Obvious! What, are you trying to rub it in? :smallbiggrin:

Oracle_Hunter

2008-10-18, 08:39 PM

Partially because it would have looked suspicious if the same guy followed them around everywhere they went. And partially because, as they said before, these tests weren't mind shattering. In Elf land (forget the name) he was reintroduced to the Chosen and their evil. In Aquilestra there was the blessed hydra's song. Then in Semash there was Scarlatti's problem. Each test was a prod, not a whack with a sledgehammer. A test to see how disturbed Dominic was.

And as for making sure he had a good time...well, maybe Rilian did want that on some level. I'm sure he doesn't WANT to kill him. And helping him to relax...heck, that's what the whole trip was about.

So... what was Rillian "testing?" According to him (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-10-17):

I needed to see how they reacted to different "stresses" .... If he "failed" any of his little tests he would have descended into Mindbreak and I would have killed him on the spot.

Did you see anything that looked like this in the Vacation Arc? Did any of Dominic's "tests" prod anything?

If not, then why did Rillian set them up? According to him (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-10-18):

None of you were forced to do anything. I merely stressed the importance of it.

What was important about those interactions? If they didn't prod Dominic's mind, then why is Rillian so sure that Dominic's mind is "stable?" Is listening to a sad story really a good test of someone's mental stability? Or not getting a ticket to a show you wanted to go to? This for someone who is expected to fight Cosmic Horrors?

Couldn't Rillian have, I dunno, gotten the random Merfolk to strain Dom & Sub's relationship and see if he could hold up with that? Or maybe make it so that Dominic saw a terrible injustice that he was unable to rectify? Either would have been extremely easy for Rillian to set up, and would have required the cooperation of the parties to the "conspiracy". And either would have subjected Dominic to a moderate strain which could have proved more conclusively whether Dominic is stable enough to live.

Why the conspiracy at all?

Enlong

2008-10-18, 08:45 PM

Because it makes it look as though the Vacation had something, anything at all, to make it not completely worthless and ignorable. So now not only have we had to sit through that arc, but now we can't even claim that it had no bearing on the plot.:smallsigh:

Mr. Scaly

2008-10-18, 08:58 PM

So... what was Rillian "testing?" According to him (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-10-17):

Did you see anything that looked like this in the Vacation Arc? Did any of Dominic's "tests" prod anything?

If not, then why did Rillian set them up? According to him (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-10-18):

What was important about those interactions? If they didn't prod Dominic's mind, then why is Rillian so sure that Dominic's mind is "stable?" Is listening to a sad story really a good test of someone's mental stability? Or not getting a ticket to a show you wanted to go to? This for someone who is expected to fight Cosmic Horrors?

That's the thing though. They DID prod into his mind...they just didn't smash it open. The sad story with the elf put him into contact with the Chosen, who'd been tormenting him pretty much his whole life, again. The Semash part wasn't about some stupid play, it was about what he did to Siegfried. If he hadn't stuck his nose into the Hell war Siegfried wouldn't have been corrupted and people Dom knows wouldn't have suffered. , and Scarlotti put that fact right in his face.

Couldn't Rillian have, I dunno, gotten the random Merfolk to strain Dom & Sub's relationship and see if he could hold up with that? Or maybe make it so that Dominic saw a terrible injustice that he was unable to rectify? Either would have been extremely easy for Rillian to set up, and would have required the cooperation of the parties to the "conspiracy". And either would have subjected Dominic to a moderate strain which could have proved more conclusively whether Dominic is stable enough to live.

Why the conspiracy at all?

I get the feeling that that part was all the merfolk's handiwork and that Rilian didn't have much to do with it.

Castel

2008-10-18, 09:15 PM

If he hadn't stuck his nose into the Hell war Siegfried wouldn't have been corrupted and people Dom knows wouldn't have suffered. , and Scarlotti put that fact right in his face.

Sigfried sealed his fate the moment he attacked a large group of First Caste members. (And I love him for that)

I always thought Sigfried went to hell because of the genocide against the orcs, not because of The Dominus's actions.

Mr. Scaly

2008-10-18, 09:30 PM

Siegfried had issues and did some terrible things in his past, but had some time to become a better person before the war. In that arc alone he cheerfully bent the law for his own purposes, savagely beat up someone who wasn't resisting, and slaughtered several innocent knights who happened to be in his way. Plus if Dom hadn't grabbed Karnak's attention (and pissed him off so much) he probably wouldn't have cared about warping his friend's soul.

averagejoe

2008-10-18, 09:34 PM

I didn't think it was that bad. It makes sense actually...Dominic went on the trip to relax but suppose they were attacked by sky pirates or dragons or something? Cue mind break and lots and lots of deaths. This way Rilian got to keep an eye on Dominic and set up the whole test thing.

Maybe it makes some amount of sense, but that's not what I was talking about. It was handled really badly; there was no hint of this (probably because he hadn't thought of it) and as a result the revelation was so out of left field that it's quite obviously not "what happened," but a way for Mookie to justify this pointless, wanktastic arc. I'm sure it can be justified; enough fans can justify anything. (Seriously. It's kind of scary what some Star Wars fans think up.) However, the mere existence of a justification doesn't make anything good or well done, especially not if it has to be spelled out so much.

Well, plus I always thought that mind break thing was dumb in the first place, even by the standards of this comic. Plus, I thought it didn't work that way, (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-05-20) so it was pretty jarring to hear about it. (Yes, there was this (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-05-25), but I thought that was a joke, especially since his seer powers have never worked that way before.) There weren't even any significant sources of stress in the first place, confusing the whole thing even more.

Clockwork_Seal

2008-10-18, 09:37 PM

{Scrubbed}

Friv

2008-10-18, 09:41 PM

That's the thing though. They DID prod into his mind...they just didn't smash it open. The sad story with the elf put him into contact with the Chosen, who'd been tormenting him pretty much his whole life, again. The Semash part wasn't about some stupid play, it was about what he did to Siegfried. If he hadn't stuck his nose into the Hell war Siegfried wouldn't have been corrupted and people Dom knows wouldn't have suffered. , and Scarlotti put that fact right in his face.

But all of that is stuff he's already dealt with, far more seriously.

I get the feeling that that part was all the merfolk's handiwork and that Rilian didn't have much to do with it.

You would be mistaken. (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-10-17) Note panel 6.

averagejoe

2008-10-18, 09:43 PM

{Scrubbed}

Come on, there's no need for that.

Clockwork_Seal

2008-10-18, 09:52 PM

Let's be perfectly frank, Joe. There's no need for a lot of things. We do them anyway.

Like reading Dominic Deegan. HAYOOOH!

Mr. Scaly

2008-10-18, 10:04 PM

{Scrubbed}

Duh, me no understand big words...

According to Rilian, this is exactly the opposite of what he was using this trip for. You can't logically support the 'Rilian's conspiracy is anything other than bull****' claim while also saying 'well OBVIOUSLY Rilian wanted him to have a good time.' The two statements are mutually exclusive.

Except that it wasn't Rilian who put him on that airship. It was Dominic's students...WHO DID IT FOR HIM TO RELAX. Rilian followed along for the ride.

Except that the guy was introduced as a sad, old man who just wanted someone to listen to his story. Kinda weak straws to grasp for, there.

I'd make some comment about sad old men who'd gunned down entire families in their youth provoking a reaction to this day but I want to avoid Godwin's law.

Dommykins had nothing to do with Siegfried's damning. {Scrubbed}

1) Dom pissed off Karnak. If he hadn't, K probably wouldn't have so blatantly damned his friend.
2) Dom manipulated events that put Siegried in the position where he brutally beat someone who'd done nothing to deserve it, and callosuly murder several knights who got in his way.

{Scrubbed} I mean, Rilian explicitly mentioned the Merfolk having an intended role with Luna.

{Scrubbed}

Prove that he wanted him to screw with her in that exact way rather than just randomly.

Try reading 'Shadows' at some point. Siegfried was damned for his horrible, racist past. It is explicit!

{Scrubbed} HAYOOOOH!

Mr. Scaly

2008-10-18, 10:08 PM

Maybe it makes some amount of sense, but that's not what I was talking about. It was handled really badly; there was no hint of this (probably because he hadn't thought of it) and as a result the revelation was so out of left field that it's quite obviously not "what happened," but a way for Mookie to justify this pointless, wanktastic arc. I'm sure it can be justified; enough fans can justify anything. (Seriously. It's kind of scary what some Star Wars fans think up.) However, the mere existence of a justification doesn't make anything good or well done, especially not if it has to be spelled out so much.

Well, plus I always thought that mind break thing was dumb in the first place, even by the standards of this comic. Plus, I thought it didn't work that way, (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-05-20) so it was pretty jarring to hear about it. (Yes, there was this (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-05-25), but I thought that was a joke, especially since his seer powers have never worked that way before.) There weren't even any significant sources of stress in the first place, confusing the whole thing even more.

You don't like Star Wars fans, do you? :smallwink:

Well anyway, you've got points there too. But hey...different strokes for different folks, right?

Friv, what I meant was that merfolk are tricksters. That guy would have done as Rilian asked him to but would have done it in his own way.

averagejoe

2008-10-18, 10:16 PM

Let's be perfectly frank, Joe. There's no need for a lot of things. We do them anyway.

Like reading Dominic Deegan. HAYOOOH!

Well, yes, but, even so, let's keep things friendly, or at least civil. Or else I'll sternly glare at you.

You don't like Star Wars fans, do you?

It isn't that I don't like them, it's just that I'm amazed at some of the stuff they come up with. It's like they contrived plot holes that I didn't even think were plot holes, just so they could think up ways to fix the plot holes. It's kind of fascinating in imagination and scope, actually.

A mild example of this is actually in episode III, when the emperor gets all old and gross from shooting lightning. I didn't even think the emperor getting all gross wasn't something that needed to be explained; I would have easily accepted any number of explanations, none of which needed to actually be in the movie.

Phase

2008-10-18, 10:17 PM

Let's be perfectly frank, Joe. There's no need for a lot of things. We do them anyway.

Like reading Dominic Deegan. HAYOOOH!

DISS!

It was a good diss.

It was a fine diss!
Did... did I really just quote one of the best webcomics of all time in the thread of THIS Webcomic?

Mr. Scaly

2008-10-18, 10:26 PM

[QUOTE=averagejoe;5131809
It isn't that I don't like them, it's just that I'm amazed at some of the stuff they come up with. It's like they contrived plot holes that I didn't even think were plot holes, just so they could think up ways to fix the plot holes. It's kind of fascinating in imagination and scope, actually.

A mild example of this is actually in episode III, when the emperor gets all old and gross from shooting lightning. I didn't even think the emperor getting all gross wasn't something that needed to be explained; I would have easily accepted any number of explanations, none of which needed to actually be in the movie.[/QUOTE]

Oh, I see what you mean now. I thought you were talking about the rabidness. It is kind of fascinating in a way. But fans are just that way. That's part of why I like this thread. People actually discuss (and mock of course) DD's plot holes instead of just flaming everything under the sun.

Killersquid

2008-10-18, 10:32 PM

My friends actually revoked my nerd license for not having seen Star-Wars.

Friv

2008-10-18, 10:32 PM

Friv, what I meant was that merfolk are tricksters. That guy would have done as Rilian asked him to but would have done it in his own way.

Well, that's all well and good, but Rillian still wants to discuss the merfolk's success in affecting her. This is about as strong an implication as you can get without outright saying "Thank you for that dubious mind screw" that he knew and approved of the plan.

Clockwork_Seal

2008-10-18, 10:34 PM

Rilian followed along for the ride.

Rilian followed around to test him and make sure that he was going to be able to handle saving the world.

And then spent the whole trip making him comfortable.

Which was NOT Rilian's stated goal.

Which means that it being the goal of the students is absolutely irrelevant as far as Rilian is concerned.

I'd make some comment about sad old men who'd gunned down entire families in their youth provoking a reaction to this day but I want to avoid Godwin's law.

This is still an invoking, but don't worry, I won't call you on it.

I'll just call you on 'the Chosen have hounded Dominic throughout all of his adult life (they were there for a while, then gone, then sorta back as background villains) and that guy having any real connection as he was, and this is important, introduced as a harmless, lonely old dude with a story to tell BEFORE he said 'btw I used to be part of an organization centuries ago.'

1) Dom pissed off Karnak. If he hadn't, K probably wouldn't have so blatantly damned his friend.

Siggy wasn't Dommy-kins' friend. Dominic was actually ANGRY that Siggy dragged him off to the castle when he had more important things to do.

2) Dom manipulated events that put Siegried in the position where he brutally beat someone who'd done nothing to deserve it, and callosuly murder several knights who got in his way.

You mean 'Klo Tark caused a jailbreak to get Dommykins out of the prison that he wanted nothing to do with?'

I mean, that's what HAPPENED, but it's kinda unrelated to what you said. Are you even reading the same comic that everyone else is?

Prove that he wanted him to screw with her in that exact way rather than just randomly.

Rilian referred to it as 'success.' Their target was Luna.

]Try reading what I said before.

What you said before is wrong, and you are wrong.

Edit:

Well, yes, but, even so, let's keep things friendly, or at least civil. Or else I'll sternly glare at you.

I'm being civil. I find 'bluntness' superior to 'tact.' As I recall, we've been over this in a previous topic.

Oracle_Hunter

2008-10-18, 10:41 PM

I'm being civil. I find 'bluntness' superior to 'tact.' As I recall, we've been over this in a previous topic.

Calling someone stupid is never civil. It's name-calling (or an ad hominem attack, to class things up) and as you can see from the responses here, it just provokes more yelling.

I don't agree with Mr. Scaly for many reasons (such as "sympathetic old men = The Chosen" or that anything in that episode can be called a "stress" under any sense of the word) but I don't think he's "stupid" for his opinions. And even if I did, it is not conducive to reasoned discourse (or pleasant conversation, in simpler language) to throw it in his face.

averagejoe

2008-10-18, 10:47 PM

I'm being civil. I find 'bluntness' superior to 'tact.' As I recall, we've been over this in a previous topic.

Bluntness is where you speak plainly without consideration for other people's feelings. Tact is where you go out of your way to preserve them. Insult is where you go out of your way to hurt other people's feelings. "You cannot be this stupid" is not bluntness. The comment has no other point but to attack someone else.

Clockwork_Seal

2008-10-18, 10:49 PM

{Scrubbed}

Mr. Scaly

2008-10-18, 10:50 PM

Rilian followed around to test him and make sure that he was going to be able to handle saving the world.

And then spent the whole trip making him comfortable.

Which was NOT Rilian's stated goal.

Which means that it being the goal of the students is absolutely irrelevant as far as Rilian is concerned.

Oh, fair enough.

"Let's screw with the mind of the powerful seer we hope to protect the world from cosmic horrors and then NOT calm him down in between. THAT will be sure to keep him from snapping and killing everyone in a mile radius when he does!"

This is still an invoking, but don't worry, I won't call you on it.

I'll just call you on 'the Chosen have hounded Dominic throughout all of his adult life (they were there for a while, then gone, then sorta back as background villains) and that guy having any real connection as he was, and this is important, introduced as a harmless, lonely old dude with a story to tell BEFORE he said 'btw I used to be part of an organization centuries ago.'

Helixa was Chosen. She maimed one brother and turned the other to necromancy. Both were a big thing for Dominic growing up. Thus, the Chosen have hounded him his whole adult life.

As for the old man, he was painted as a sympathetic figure at first BECAUSE it was more jarring when the truth was told.

Siggy wasn't Dommy-kins' friend. Dominic was actually ANGRY that Siggy dragged him off to the castle when he had more important things to do.

Sucks to be Siggy then, taking the fall for being 'an acquaintance of Domminic's with whom he had frequent conversation of an intimate nature.' Either way it was still Dommy's fault.

You mean 'Klo Tark caused a jailbreak to get Dommykins out of the prison that he wanted nothing to do with?'

If Dominic hadn't just stood there and let Siggy beat him half to death... He wasn't even in jail at the time of the break.

I mean, that's what HAPPENED, but it's kinda unrelated to what you said. Are you even reading the same comic that everyone else is?

Yep. The problem is that I'm enjoying it and not burning every frame that's posted.

Rilian referred to it as 'success.' Their target was Luna.

How succinct of you. He did not say that the operation was a success with her. Nor did he say that the merfolk tested her in the way he wanted.

What you said before is wrong, and you are wrong.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

Mr. Scaly

2008-10-18, 10:52 PM

It is. It's also an isolated incident that I have no interest in repeating unless he continues to go out of his way to miss the point. The fact that he continues to respond with the same rhetoric when his contradictions are pointed out means that there isn't much of an option beyond 'stupid or trolling.'

I have no interest in 'choosing my words carefully' in order to not offend people. I said that his statement was an incredibly stupid one, and that I had a hard time believing that his own qualities could possibly match up to it. I will not retract it, nor will I apologize. This is a simple fact and if people are going to get their panties in a twist they'd do well to move past it.

Okay...let's be honest with each other.

You're not going to convince me that I'm wrong. And I'm obviously not going to do the same to you. Can we agree to disagree or do we keep this up for the next fifty pages?

Draconic

2008-10-18, 10:57 PM

I've been lurking since the epic thread of epic, and have been tempted to post, but never had...until now.

It's truly amazing how awful a writer Mookie is, and now I'm seeing him derail Rilian (one of his last decent characters) in the worst way possible...by associating him with this TRAIN WRECK of an arc.

I really tried to force myself to be optimistic with this turn of the events and go along with some of the more kind views, but honestly...I think Oracle_Hunter is right and Mookie turned Rilian into a Mookie-D fanboi.

Besides this, recent discussion forced me to reflect on the whole reasoning behind this mindbreak thing. Dominic lost his job, but is independently wealthy so it doesn't threaten his financial stability and Walmart ran out of his favorite candy. Granted, he's stressed about the wedding, but who would have a NERVOUS BREAKDOWN (especially one that puts the world at risk) over the aforementioned? Hell, this week I've been given bills for stuff I've never ordered, told that my next paycheck is being withheld (just in time for rent), and have a bunch of expenses that are upcoming/already incurred (snow tires, law school apps. etc.) I'm not having a nervous breakdown, I'm just counting my blessings and trying to work things through. Honestly, I'm seriously wondering about the state of Mookie's mind/upbringing; does he even know what REALITY is anymore?

Anyway, I hope the next strip is a flash page of Rilian doing some serious damage...to what, I don't know. I can't wait for them to stop mentioning this stupid mindbreak thing.

Oracle_Hunter

2008-10-18, 11:01 PM

I've been lurking since the epic thread of epic, and have been tempted to post, but never had...until now.

Welcome to the thread!

Personally, I hope SSS is going to be Rillian disintegrating the Dragon for his impertinence. :smalltongue:

Clockwork_Seal

2008-10-18, 11:02 PM

"Let's screw with the mind of the powerful seer we hope to protect the world from cosmic horrors and then NOT calm him down in between. THAT will be sure to keep him from snapping and killing everyone in a mile radius when he does!"

Would work if they were actually screwing with the mind of a powerful seer. But everyone's just telling him how awesome he was.

Though, once again, telling him how awesome he was + no candy broke him before!

Helixa was Chosen. She maimed one brother and turned the other to necromancy. Both were a big thing for Dominic growing up. Thus, the Chosen have hounded him his whole adult life.

CHILDHOOD = ADULT LIFE.

What brilliance will you next lay upon my stoop?

Nevermind that Dominic -didn't even know- about the chosen growing up.

Either way it was still Dommy's fault.

lol no. Not even sort of. At this point I'm having a hard time buying the whole 'not trolling' case.

If Dominic hadn't just stood there and let Siggy beat him half to death... He wasn't even in jail at the time of the break.

So, how was Dommykins supposed to stop him?

This is a worse ass-pull than Rilian's conspiracy. Seriously. You're better off dropping this line of argument entirely.

Yep. The problem is that I'm enjoying it and not burning every frame that's posted.

I imagine that, if you ignore what happens in the comic and construct a new comic from whole-cloth, it would be much easier to enjoy!

Also, I actually enjoyed the comic (Urban Eddie/RAWK CONCERT notwithstanding) up to the point where Dommykins went on his post-story exposition in the Snowsong Arc. But then, you're just randomly assuming **** because it's convenient for your case anyway (just like the comic's own continuity, lolololol).

How succinct of you. He did not say that the operation was a success with her.

I will speak to the two of you later regarding the sorceress and your success with her. (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-10-17)

Try again?

Nor did he say that the merfolk tested her in the way he wanted.

He didn't say that merfolk weren't made out of waterproof marshmallows, either. That doesn't make it any less absurd of a consideration.

Okay...let's be honest with each other.

I've been doing this. I'm waiting for you to return the favor.

Can we agree to disagree or do we keep this up for the next fifty pages?

No, because you can only disagree on opinions. The things you are arguing against are events which observably happened. So we aren't going to so much 'agree to disagree' as you are going to insist on being wrong.

Edit:

Dominic lost his job, but is independently wealthy so it doesn't threaten his financial stability

Read through the arc again. Dominic found out that he STILL HAD A JOB (and was awesome) before the candy fiasco occurred.

He also found out that one of his students had their life saved from an otherwise undetectable disease because he was awesome.

averagejoe

2008-10-18, 11:05 PM

I have no interest in 'choosing my words carefully' in order to not offend people. I said that his statement was an incredibly stupid one, and that I had a hard time believing that his own qualities could possibly match up to it. I will not retract it, nor will I apologize. This is a simple fact and if people are going to get their panties in a twist they'd do well to move past it.

Interesting. I disagree with you and thus wear panties. Wearing panties makes me female, or at least a feminine male, and therefore I must be whining about nothing, which is a pretty womanish thing to do. Therefore my arguments must collectively be wrong. Clever.

However, I don't recall anyone asking you to retract or apologize for anything. I simply asked that you keep things civil, and would have been satisfied if you hadn't answered at all. I don't care if you choose your words carefully so as not to offend people, just don't choose them carefully for the purpose of offending people. {Scrubbed}

Clockwork_Seal

2008-10-18, 11:08 PM

{Scrubbed}

Draconic

2008-10-18, 11:12 PM

Read through the arc again. Dominic found out that he STILL HAD A JOB (and was awesome) before the candy fiasco occurred.

He also found out that one of his students had their life saved from an otherwise undetectable disease because he was awesome.

Mein gott, I couldn't stomach rereading the arc, but I believe you...It's actually even MORE improbable then I originally thought.

Excuse me, I'm going to go mourn the Rilian's derailment by, I don't know...listening to a Cannibal Corpse album or something.

averagejoe

2008-10-18, 11:13 PM

{Scrubbed}.

I never meant to say it was something you wrote. I was just using it as an example.

Clockwork_Seal

2008-10-18, 11:15 PM

I was just using it as an example.

But it wasn't a very good example.

Also, your paragraph about panties is confusing me to a ridiculous degree.

Killersquid

2008-10-18, 11:20 PM

Excuse me, I'm going to go mourn the Rilian's derailment by, I don't know...listening to a Cannibal Corpse album or something.

Oh no, don't do that awful thing to yourself.

Oracle_Hunter

2008-10-18, 11:21 PM

Also, your paragraph about panties is confusing me to a ridiculous degree.

You used the phrase "get your panties in a twist" which Averagejoe took to be some kind of slight against his masculinity or whatnot.

Much like "putting lipstick on a pig" this is just a common turn of phrase, at least... IN AMERICA :smallbiggrin:

EDIT:
Actually, it's very interesting how difficult cultural translation can be, and how important it is to be sensitive to such things when conversing on the Internet.

It's one reason I put links to things all the time :smallbiggrin:

Killersquid

2008-10-18, 11:22 PM

Much like "putting lipstick on a pig" this is just a common turn of phrase, at least... IN AMERICA :smallbiggrin:

And...IN AMERICA!...is sexist... I think.

averagejoe

2008-10-18, 11:22 PM

But it wasn't a very good example.

Also, your paragraph about panties is confusing me to a ridiculous degree.

I was just commenting on the sheer illogic in such a comment.

Mr. Scaly

2008-10-18, 11:26 PM

Would work if they were actually screwing with the mind of a powerful seer. But everyone's just telling him how awesome he was.

Though, once again, telling him how awesome he was + no candy broke him before!

I've said before the type of stress that he's facing. You're intent on ignoring it though.

No. Just, no. That doesn't even make sense. One person, Prennto, telling him how awesome he is is nothing compared to everything he's gone through since the Storm of Souls.

CHILDHOOD = ADULT LIFE.

What brilliance will you next lay upon my stoop?

So you're saying that whatever happens to someone in their childhood has no effect on them growing up. Brilliant deduction.

Nevermind that Dominic -didn't even know- about the chosen growing up.

Irrelevent. He knew a necromancer attacked his family when he was young. Learning that she was a chosen later makes no difference.

lol no. Not even sort of. At this point I'm having a hard time buying the whole 'not trolling' case.

I think I'm going to sig something about trolls now. Thanks for the inspiration.

So, how was Dommykins supposed to stop him?

This is a worse ass-pull than Rilian's conspiracy. Seriously. You're better off dropping this line of argument entirely.

Wizard+Sage+Champion of Balance= Spelling it out for you.

I imagine that, if you ignore what happens in the comic and construct a new comic from whole-cloth, it would be much easier to enjoy!

Also, I actually enjoyed the comic (Urban Eddie/RAWK CONCERT notwithstanding) up to the point where Dommykins went on his post-story exposition in the Snowsong Arc. But then, you're just randomly assuming **** because it's convenient for your case anyway (just like the comic's own continuity, lolololol).

Wow. There was nothing there worth responding to.

I will speak to the two of you later regarding the sorceress and your success with her. (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-10-17)

Try again?

How succinct of you. He did not say that the operation was a success with her.

He said he would discuss the success...as in how much of a success it had been. Admittedly that was poorly worded on my part.

He didn't say that merfolk weren't made out of waterproof marshmallows, either. That doesn't make it any less absurd of a consideration.

So you're making assumptions now.

I've been doing this. I'm waiting for you to return the favor.

I've meant every word I've said.

No, because you can only disagree on opinions. The things you are arguing against are events which observably happened. So we aren't going to so much 'agree to disagree' as you are going to insist on being wrong.

Fair enough. I'm going to be "wrong" then. And I'll let you stay on that plane of existence where you're "right." To sum up: I'm done arguing with you.

Draconic

2008-10-18, 11:26 PM

Oh no, don't do that awful thing to yourself.

Well, what do you suggest? I mean...there's always Impaled Northern Moon Forest, but that doesn't come across as very "Rilian" to me.

Or maybe, with his current derailment, he listens to things more emotional...like Annie Lennox or possibly, since he's now a fanbot, Oblivion Folder.

ALSO: Win on the Yu Gi Oh Abridged reference, Oracle_Hunter

Clockwork_Seal

2008-10-18, 11:35 PM

I was just commenting on the sheer illogic in such a comment.

Illogic in WHAT comment? Have you ever seen someone with tangled underwear? It tends to make one rather irritable.

I've said before the type of stress that he's facing.

Except that he ISN'T actually facing any of these types of stress. The old man is the most neutered threat in history. The dwarf punching him was the most he got in regards to 'stress.'

(Edit: The Dwarf Punching him and Not getting the tickets)

So you're saying that whatever happens to someone in their childhood has no effect on them growing up. Brilliant deduction.

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that an incident which eh grew up unaware of having anything to do with the chosen doesn't really qualify as 'the chosen hounding him throughout his adult life.'

You know, arguing with what you ACTUALLY said rather than some fanciful non-statement that you didn't make.

Irrelevent. He knew a necromancer attacked his family when he was young. Learning that she was a chosen later makes no difference.

Relevant. Try to keep in mind the context in which statements were made.

Wizard+Sage+Champion of Balance= Spelling it out for you.

Except that his 'champion of balance' powers have showed up exactly zero times since Storm of Souls. Likewise with Dommykins actually using non-seer-related magic.

Asspull.

Wow. There was nothing there worth responding to.

I imagine not, as there is no response you could reasonably give. Given that your stance relies on me always hating and eviscerating DD, and calling you on your own ignorance of events therein (which you demonstrated admirably), you're in a bit of a bind to do anything but admit fault.

Since your pride won't let you, we know how that's going.

He said he would discuss the success...as in how much of a success it had been. Admittedly that was poorly worded on my part.

asspull.

So you're making assumptions now.

Are you saying that it IS reasonable to consider that Merfolk might be made out of waterproof marshmallows?

I've meant every word I've said.

Then you simply haven't read the comic.

Fair enough. I'm going to be "wrong" then. And I'll let you stay on that plane of existence where you're "right."

So long as you can admit that you're wrong, I'm perfectly content to drop the subject and stay in reality. Problem solved.

Jayngfet

2008-10-18, 11:51 PM

Four pages today alone...

averagejoe

2008-10-18, 11:58 PM

Illogic in WHAT comment? Have you ever seen someone with tangled underwear? It tends to make one rather irritable.

I honestly have no idea if you really don't know what these things you say mean, or whether you're just being rhetorical. Either way, this is pointless.

Oracle_Hunter

2008-10-19, 12:00 AM

Four pages today alone...

Yeah, today was That Bad.

I'm not even sure why I'm this bothered by Rillian's derailment. I mean, we hardly knew the guy, and I certainly never cared about him. It was awful nice of him to show up now though - where was he
during the War In Hell? :smallconfused:

Phase

2008-10-19, 12:13 AM

He said he would discuss the success...as in how much of a success it had been. Admittedly that was poorly worded on my part.

asspull.

No, it actually isn't. I'm not happy with the current turn of events, but this is a logical conclusion. There are two conclusions that can be drawn from Rilian's statement here, this one seems more likely.

They failed. The merfolk led Luna out and all that retconny goodness happened. Dom was unphased by the conclusions stated by "Leviathan" and went on to explain his 'miserable' fetish to Luna. He then talked to "Brian" the next day and Rilian, realizing that the merfolk had failed in stressing Dominic, he quickly righted Dominic's view. His own speech with Dominus changes his thoughts on what makes him happy to both test his mental strength AND steer the Dominus away from unneccesary stresses. They failed in making the Dominus think something and messing with his head, so Rilian had to take over, going with the flow of their failure.

Khosan

2008-10-19, 12:16 AM

Four pages today alone...

Man, I thought I was being optimistic when I said it'd hit page 5 by Sunday.

Then again, I'm not certain whether or not to call it a solid five pages since the last two have been mostly Mr. Scaly and Clockwork Seal bickering.

Castel

2008-10-19, 02:01 AM

Then again, I'm not certain whether or not to call it a solid five pages since the last two have been mostly Mr. Scaly and Clockwork Seal bickering.

This is the internet, petty bickering is an essential part of it, and thus counting it is completely validated.:smallwink:

Trazoi

2008-10-19, 02:09 AM

Sunday Splash Strip Link! (http://dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-10-19)

It's not as Narm as I'd feared. I'd have feared Rilian would go completely emo.

But the puns are painful - and I'm someone who likes terrible puns (i.e., I like Irregular Webcomic). BTW, he should have gone with "Rilianmancy".

And I'm assuming from the angle of the wall behind the bookcase that his house is shaped like a dodecahedron.

pendejochy

2008-10-19, 02:16 AM

Actually, I kind of liked that "Ghost in the Spell" pun.....

Castel

2008-10-19, 02:21 AM

..I always thought that Rillians face was actually just muscles without skin, or with ripped parts of skin (and therefore expected it to be red). Never would've thought it was some black.... thing?

Trazoi

2008-10-19, 02:30 AM

Actually, I kind of liked that "Ghost in the Spell" pun.....
Maybe Mookie's punning just missed its mark with me.

My main critique of the puns is that half of them don't really work even as brainstormed names for necromancy. "Ghost in the Spell" doesn't sound like the sort of name you'd think of for a school of magic, especially in a world without anime films (um, I'm assuming the Deeganverse doesn't have anime films, but I'm fully prepared to be wrong. :smalleek:).

And being furtherly picky: "Killyoudead" and "Gross" just doesn't jive with me as something Brian-Rilian would come up with. "Killyoudead" implies necromancy is purely offensive and evil. "Gross" is even worse, as it implies there's something fundamentally distasteful with necromancy, which isn't something a necromancer would think. It'd be like a surgeon going "ugh, icky gooky stuff" when doing an operation.

If I really wanted to be picky, I'd say Brian-Rilian should be casting a shadow on that wall given the exaggerated shadows on those pieces of paper, but I don't mind minor art problems that much :smallsmile:. Except for the dreadful perspective problems: seriously, that bookcase is still freaking me out on second glance.

Nevrmore

2008-10-19, 02:36 AM

Rilian's face looks like it is all musculature, but he's wearing some sort of Dread Pirate Robert-esque bandana over his eyes...

YHuntressE

2008-10-19, 02:41 AM

I just with he pulled out the ruler so the lines on that panel would be staight and the bodies would look so crooked.

Felius

2008-10-19, 03:52 AM

Heh, I found this actually pretty funny. I can even accept Rillian was a jolly fat guy who liked to do naked stretches ( :smalleek: ), who became a cold and killed his emotions because he basically had to kill his friends to save the world. And then do it again. It's acceptable, I'd consider it decent character development, and I'd call him deep.

Now, I can't accept that asspull of a retcon of conspiracy. I could if the conspiracy had the purpose to guarantee that he relaxed, instead of finding stressing things at the places. I could accept if the vacations arcs actually were "testing" instead of so damn relaxing. What I can't accept is everything as it is now.

Deus_e_Machina

2008-10-19, 03:52 AM

I actually like the way Rillian looks here. I've liked his character design from his first appearance, and not even the snark here is changing that, I think.

That said, I completely missed that bookcase the first time. The second time, after reading the comments here, I thought, "It's a little skew maybe but what - " and then I saw the line where the two walls meet. That... that is a VERY impressively built bookcase.

Also, Rilianmancy, Death-o-magic, and Most Awesome Magic all amused me. The rest... splortch and killyoudead and dieface just sound so unnamelike, even ignoring the flaws in the names themselves, Ghost in the Spell breaks the separation between our world and that of Dominus, but that's no surprise, and Necromagia and Lightblight seem vaguely reasonable, if strange sounding.

Still. Splortch?

Also, is there a term for the idea of breaking the separation between a fictional world and the real one without actually breaking the fourth wall? The characters don't do the fourth-wall breaking, but elements from our world are reflected in the fictional world despite making no sense in that context. It's something we've seen a lot in Dominic Deegan and I've seen it commented and ranted on quite a bit, but I don't recall if there was a term for it.

FoE

2008-10-19, 03:53 AM

Turns out Johnny Blade was partially correct. It was half a flashback.

Ugh. Those were awful. The only pun I like was "LightBlight."

The thing that bugs me about this "Brillian" plot twist is that Rillian chose to hang out with Dominic and Luna, both of whom he had expressed severe contempt for.

EDIT: What, no unlikely brick wall in the background? :smalltongue:

Trazoi

2008-10-19, 04:00 AM

"Splortch" is one that I could see some justification for putting up there. If he's brainstorming names, Brian-Rilian could be just putting up some key words to help get the creative juices flowing. Splortch by itself itsn't a great name, but it might help spark off some ideas for better names. And Splortch is something he might think of when doing some "hands-on" necromancy.

Although if Brian-Rilian was truly doing that type of brainstorming, I'd have expected more simple words like plain old "Death", "Magic", pictures of skulls and the like up there.

And I'm forcing myself to believe that that slightly obscured word was "pieface". Because it amuses me.

Jayngfet

2008-10-19, 04:20 AM

If only DD was complex(without derailment or retcons) and could stand alone(without snark).

Jahkaivah

2008-10-19, 04:50 AM

If only DD was complex(without derailment or retcons) and could stand alone(without snark).

Hehe :smalltongue:

Fangly

2008-10-19, 05:10 AM

Sunday Splash Strip Link! (http://dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-10-19)
But the puns are painful - and I'm someone who likes terrible puns (i.e., I like Irregular Webcomic). BTW, he should have gone with "Rilianmancy".

I laughed. Out loud.

The shame.

Usually when I read things that are funny I appreciate them mentally while not actually laughing. The only time I really laugh is when it's shocked out of me, like today's "Killyoudead" (we all have some degree of bad taste) or, for another example, in Johnny Blade's recent barrage of dwarf ball punching goodness, I only really laughed when Melna showed up unexpectedly. I need to be sneak attacked. Also, it's 3 AM.

It amuses me that I feel such shame at laughing at a Dominic Deegan comic that I'm actually typed out a paragraph of justification. Either this says something unpleasant about Mookie's writing or about my ridiculous level of pretentiousness.

Anyways. While this particular strip did make me laugh, it doesn't excuse how badly this was pulled off. And I'm a sucker for damaged emo Anti-Heroes/Anti-Villains. I like the idea of Rillian sometimes wanting to be his old self. I don't buy this arc, which ruins Rillian's brilliant master manipulator status and, as Oracle Hunter so eloquently pointed out, turned him into a Dominic fanboy. It's another idea that was "Too good for that bastard" (it's 3 AM, I'm spending twenty minutes trying to remember how to hyperlink). Lame.

Arioch

2008-10-19, 05:32 AM

Wow, this strip is...not actually that bad. My only nitpick is Rillian's colouring.

Johnny Blade

2008-10-19, 06:40 AM

Okay, that wasn't so bad. Still more or less unnecessary, but that goes without saying.
I am, however, disappointed. I wanted to see if Oracle_Hunter's interpretation was right and the whole conspiracy was just an excuse for Rilian to be near Dominic and the first puppet.

By the way, I think it should be noted when (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-09-16) Milov said the line Rilian references today.
Looks like Rilian is even creepier and lonelier than I thought before.

Turns out Johnny Blade was partially correct. It was half a flashback.
It's actually almost exactly what I expected.
And having the same thought as Mookie is rather scary, but at least it gives me an excuse to do a lazy slay today.

TSA

2008-10-19, 06:49 AM

I'll just thank OH for comprising the rant which has been bubbling in my head since yesterday. Apparently the Briansuit runs on the Power of Friendship.
DEAR GODS THAT WAS STUPID

By the way, I think it should be noted when (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-09-16) Milov said the line Rilian references today.
Looks like Rilian is even creepier and lonelier than I thought before.

This brings up hilarious and inappropriate thoughts. :smallbiggrin:

FoE

2008-10-19, 07:06 AM

In retrospect, Milov's remarks in that strip (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-09-16) seem somewhat suspect.

"I'm certain he's going to excel at the Coldfire Academy. He's a bright young man who understands the importance of taking a BREAK. Life can BREAK you if you don't step away from it once in a while."

And then one strip earlier, he says "One of the last concessions I had to make was to stop exporting our land's Mavpel. I didn't think it would be a big deal. I heard about the, um, BREAKDOWN it caused."

Funny thing is, HOW WOULD MILOV HAVE HEARD ABOUT DOMINIC'S BREAKDOWN? What, did it make the news? "Local Seer Breaks Down Like Little Girl in Candy Store?"

Was he trying to give them hints about Rillian and they were just too dense to pick up on them?

Gez

2008-10-19, 07:10 AM

Funny thing is, HOW WOULD MILOV HAVE HEARD ABOUT DOMINIC'S BREAKDOWN? What, did it make the news? "Local Seer Breaks Down Like Little Girl in Candy Store?"

Well, the world does revolve around Dominic. And if you published a newspaper in Callanland, would you reject the opportunity of publishing a picture of panel 7 (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-05-14) in large format on your frontpage? (Alternatively, panel 4.)

Wraith

2008-10-19, 08:27 AM

Wow, this strip is...not actually that bad. My only nitpick is Rillian's colouring.

I thought exactly the same thing, to be honest - the connection between Brian and Rillian is supposed to be 1,000 years (maybe more) in the making, so it's no wonder that he has lost his sense of humour/wackiness after watching 15 generations of friends and family die, sometimes by his own hand.

The robe, though? Not so much a lich in nightmarish black silk, as it is a lich in shiny black rubber. Now THERE'S something Rule 34 has a lot to answer for....

FoE

2008-10-19, 08:35 AM

There's a Trope somewhere in this ... The hero that has to become a hardass in order to be effective as a hero ...

ORACLE HUNTER! WE NEED YOU!

*Turns on the Snark Signal*

Morty

2008-10-19, 08:37 AM

So, now we need a trope every time we see a character do something?:smallannoyed:

Clockwork_Seal

2008-10-19, 08:45 AM

{Scrubbed}

Gez

2008-10-19, 09:11 AM

I thought that 'too good for that bastard' was usually used when someone accidentally puts something brilliant together without intended, realizing, or ever acknowledging it?

No, it's just when an author has a good idea and but ruins it. Either directly by implementing the idea poorly, or indirectly by having too much crap alongside the Good Idea.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TooGoodForThatBastard

HidaTsuzua

2008-10-19, 09:26 AM

I must admit at first I was indifferent to the conspiracy, but after the arguments of OH, it does basically sacrifice Rilian for the sins of the Vacation Arc.

While this is obviously retconning, I have a theory. Rilian planned out a real conspiracy of all sort of tests and actual problems. However, Rilian decides to wear his old Brian skin. Maybe it's because he likes to wear it out in public but rarely does since he's been a recluse lately, or whatever. Here's where the problem is.

Brian has a snout and it's his snout his soulscape is used to receiving. Rilian got hit with the Deegandrug! It makes sense that Rilian wouldn't have realized the Deegandrug since it is only a recent phenomena and wearing other "skins" likely disables the snout-soulscape connection. So Rilian gets hit with the deegandrug and becomes a deeganslave. While Dominius was at his weakest, Rilian doesn't have any protection nor expected it. So Rilian now changes the tests so that Dominic has a good time.

Rilian who has breathed air that wasn't Deegandrug laden was able to smell it here (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-09-23) though it was too late by then.

Roland St. Jude

2008-10-19, 10:19 AM

Sheriff of Moddingham: Please remain civil in here. We expect all posters to know and follow the Forum Rules, especially those about treating others with respect. That means no flaming of any kind, including namecalling, passive-aggressive comments, accusing others of not reading what you wrote, etc. Please be nice.

Jibar

2008-10-19, 11:27 AM

I thought exactly the same thing, to be honest - the connection between Brian and Rillian is supposed to be 1,000 years (maybe more) in the making,

And yet fashion or... anything else, doesn't seem to have changed.

That's what bothers me most about this strip. His Deegan-Era outfit.

Clockwork_Seal

2008-10-19, 11:33 AM

Reposting my previous post sans what apparently counts as flaming here?

I'm not even sure why I'm this bothered by Rillian's derailment. I mean, we hardly knew the guy, and I certainly never cared about him.

Honestly, Rilian being Brian isn't derailment. Wanting to spend time as his old self again? Fine. Wanting to follow Dommykins on his vacation and discretely tailing him when he leaves the ship in order to check on him and make sure he doesn't need a murdering? Also fine.

It's the conspiracy that is unforgivably stupid. I suppose that this counts as derailment as Rilian was supposed to NOT be a moron, but the whole 'actually being like Brian centuries before' thing isn't really derailment.

That said, Some of the pun names are dumb, but not really enought o ruin this strip. It honestly isn't that bad. This isn't even a case as 'better than the rest of the vacation arc, but still pretty nasty,' it's just 'hey, it's alright.'

It's another idea that was "Too good for that bastard"

I thought that 'too good for that bastard' was usually used when someone accidentally puts something brilliant together without intended, realizing, or ever acknowledging it?

No, it's just when an author has a good idea and but ruins it. Either directly by implementing the idea poorly, or indirectly by having too much crap alongside the Good Idea.

In that case, yeah. Pretty much a textbook example.

averagejoe

2008-10-19, 12:06 PM

Today's was a little funny. Other than that it didn't really tell us anything we didn't know.

I thought exactly the same thing, to be honest - the connection between Brian and Rillian is supposed to be 1,000 years (maybe more) in the making, so it's no wonder that he has lost his sense of humour/wackiness after watching 15 generations of friends and family die, sometimes by his own hand.

But he didn't lose it, he, apparently, wishes he could be like that, but can't for the sake of the world, or whatever.

Jayngfet

2008-10-19, 12:08 PM

I think not going to WET was a smart move. He's a lich, who knows what will happen to him.

Wraith

2008-10-19, 12:26 PM

There's a Trope somewhere in this ... The hero that has to become a hardass in order to be effective as a hero ...

ORACLE HUNTER! WE NEED YOU!
*Turns on the Snark Signal*

The Chosen One? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheChosenOne) Designated Hero? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DesignatedHero) Took A Level In Bad-Ass? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TookALevelInBadass)The Only One? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheOnlyOne?from=Main.OnlyOne) Training From Hell? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TrainingFromHell) It's Up To You? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ItsUpToYou) Tedchnically, I suppose even He's Back! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HesBack) would apply, if he goes from his Holiday right back into saving the world.

All these things are supposed to be separate and individual, yet overlapping Tropes. I wonder if it's ironic, or merely embarrassing, that so many of them apply to Dominic simultaneously...

...Although if it degenerates into a Theme Music Power Up (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThemeMusicPowerUp) at any point, I think someone is going to have to die, and I don't care that it might be me...

Winterwind

2008-10-19, 01:33 PM

Mhh. Not much to comment upon today, it would seem.

So instead, I'll point out that there is a crystal ball on this shelf, which might indicate that Rillian does, indeed, possess real seer powers (as opposed to the generic Mysterious Mentor powers of "I have no way to know this, but I do anyway!"). Unless Mookie just put it in there without much thought as generic item a magician's shelf might contain, which is much more likely.
I'm surprised at how little stuff one might relate to necromancy somehow there is. No skulls, bones, flesh, blight, nothing?

Mr. Scaly

2008-10-19, 02:55 PM

I wonder if tearing the skin from the bottom half of your face is a requirement for necromancy? Hmm...we need some more rules for how magic works.

Oracle_Hunter

2008-10-19, 03:18 PM

I'm surprised at how little stuff one might relate to necromancy somehow there is. No skulls, bones, flesh, blight, nothing?

According to Brian, modern Necromancers are doing it wrong (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-06-27).

So, having stewed in my rant juices for an evening, I have the following conclusion:

Rillian wanted Dom & Sub to relax, and was willing to flex his Reputation muscles to force random mooks across the world ensure that Dominic would.

LONG
Rillian fed them a line about "testing" and "fate of the world" to make them cooperative, but really all he wanted them to do was be nice to Dom & Sub. He went along to make sure that Dominic was, in fact, relaxing, and that he could refocus his mind towards dealing with the world's problems again, instead of bitching about candy.

This does explain:
- why the Vacation was super-special-awesome
- why none of the "stress tests" were actually stressful
- Brian's advice throughout the trip
- why Brian didn't accompany Dom & Sub to their supposed "tests"

This does NOT explain:
- Why Rillian told Groin Puncher or The Merfolk Manipulator to injure/mindrape Dom & Sub
- Why Brian spent most of the trip justifying Necromancy (and therefore, himself) to Dominic

Now, Rillian's motivations enter into a lot of these final considerations. As I see it, Rillian either:

(1) Sees Dominic as a Person of Mass Destruction who can bludgeon most of the Big Problems into the ground. This leaves Rillian more time to subtly manipulate events, and also to keep an eye on Jacob - it's unclear why he thinks that he needs to do that personally.

Under this interpretation, Rillian just wanted to make sure his Big Gun wasn't going to jam up under the picyune problems of everyday life, and to push Dom towards getting off his ass and doing his job - fixing things for everyone, so Rillian doesn't have to.

(2) Is suddenly Dominic's Biggest Fan and wanted to do something nice for him. This trip will make Dom feel much better about himself, and the cruise ship gave Rillian plenty of time to make Dominic feel more comfortable with Necromancy and, hopefully, Rillian himself.

Sadly, this is the more plausible explanation - unless Rillian decided he really needed to justify himself to some mewling spawn of Miranda.

Now, I'm not particularly happy with this FanWank, but it seems like the fairest interpretation of this Arc I can give Mookie. It still requires you to presume that Dominic is so huge of a Mary Stu that even Rillian can't solve something like the Plains of Maltak (which is just a Necromatic problem... y'know, the school he invented!) on his own.

In any case, Rillian is now clearly of the Second Caste, with all the character decay that comes with it. :smallannoyed:

Kyeudo

2008-10-19, 03:27 PM

I had to laugh today. Brian as Rillian has turned out to be less horrible than Mookie could have made it.

For all that these last couple of strips have been clearly pulled from nowhere to retcon the vacation into something that matters, I surprisingly don't care too much. Either this is because I have forgotten the events of the vacation enough that Rillian's explanation makes sense so long as I don't think too hard, or I have been exposed to the Deegandrug. I fear it is the second. Has anyone developed an antidote yet?

Johnny Blade

2008-10-19, 03:54 PM

And yet fashion or... anything else, doesn't seem to have changed.

That's what bothers me most about this strip. His Deegan-Era outfit.
It's not just that. This strip shows us what Dominion looked like centuries ago. Close to a thousand years, if I'm not mistaken.
And what do we see? Apparently the same technological level and clothing, indicating that science and culture of Dominion have been relatively stagnant for a significant amount of time.

Of course, there is an explanation for this curious fact.
You see, this strip shows us a time when magic, an unpredictable force in Dominion anyway, wasn't yet fully explored, since Rilian managed to invent a whole school all by himself.
Now, a couple of years later, magic was probably fully explored - although, of course, it's sometimes just magic.
This, as any reader of this comic knows, allowed most of the problems one could now possibly face in life to be solved by saying a few simple words -and you don't even need to know what you're doing (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-03-29)!
So, the need for technological progress had been drastically reduced.

However, not all were capable of using it, and most of those that were belonged to the breed we know as the Noble Nerd. Add to that the cosmic order of the caste system which itself favours this subspecies too, and you end up with the foundation of a society in which those capable of achieving anything (the 1st Caste, and the following three to a much lesser extent) are magic-users hoarding their knowledge and artifacts so the unworthy Jocks will never be able to challenge them.
It's also a very hierarchical culture with impermeable borders - one is, after all, born a Nerd or Jock. On top of that, there's the eternal struggle between the subspecies and Castes, resulting in an increased need to pass on the defining traits of one's group through the generations, ultimately culminating in a highly traditional society with almost no evolution.
The apparently short lifespan of Dominion Apes should be noted here, too. A Dominion Ape simply doesn't have as much time as a human to make a change, much less if he belongs to one of the lower Castes.

(One notable exception to the usual cultural stagnancy are the Semashi, since they are ironically forced to constantly change their culture by the very nature of their race. But, look at their architecture (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-09-24) - for a culture that supposedly constantly reinvents itself and works new things into the mix, it's remarkably consistent.
The logical explanation? Well, first off, Dominion is of course an awfully small world, so there aren't so many things to add. Also, they are easily excited, as Dominic's attempt at dancing showed. Therefore, it seems certain that, whenever they stumble upon something beautiful, they just take it up.
However, since their very culture is an assemblage of things of beauty, as soon as they replace one part of it with something new, it doesn't take long until they see the part they just sorted out again - probably as soon as they return home in the evening. And, since they are so excitable, they invariably feel the irresistible urge to make it part of their culture yet again, resulting in an endless circle where a small amount of ideas is recycled again and again.)

By the way, it is amazing how seamlessly this fits into our present knowledge of Dominion.
I think this splash page is the best part of all the worldbuilding the last few months were dedicated to.

I ... actually don't know exactly how serious that last sentence was. :smallconfused:

Oracle_Hunter

2008-10-19, 03:55 PM

There's a Trope somewhere in this ... The hero that has to become a hardass in order to be effective as a hero ...

ORACLE HUNTER! WE NEED YOU!

*Turns on the Snark Signal*

Well, you'd be looking for a Silly Rabbit Idealism Is For Kids (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SillyRabbitIdealismIsForKids) moment back when Rillian first had to do something unspeakable For The Greater Good (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GoodIsNotNice). At the moment, though, we're looking at a Spikeification (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BadassDecay?from=Main.Spikeification) of Rillian.

I'll echo M0rt here in that, no, not everything needs a Trope. However, if it's helpful for discussing a concept (like Spikeification above) then I'm all for it's use.

aaaand I occasionally post my thoughts with as many Trope Links as I can find, because I enjoy trapping people in TV Tropes when they follow the links :smalltongue:

Johnny Blade

2008-10-19, 04:20 PM

Now, I'm not particularly happy with this FanWank, but it seems like the fairest interpretation of this Arc I can give Mookie. It still requires you to presume that Dominic is so huge of a Mary Stu that even Rillian can't solve something like the Plains of Maltak (which is just a Necromatic problem... y'know, the school he invented!) on his own.
Actually, it isn't (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2007-05-09), unless I'm forgetting something.
What Dominic could do to help there? Well, I have no idea. None at all (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GodModeSue).

So, yeah, about TV Tropes. I'm glad the inflationary linking to it seems to have regressed (although I don't visit the other subforums of these boards too often, so I don't know if it actually has). I mean, that was fun for a while, but after some time it started to become annoying. However, especially for character archetypes, I find it rather convenient, although the obscure naming of some tropes is annoying sometimes.
I mean (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheToblerone):

This trope is named after Mike and the Bots' nickname for Dablone, the loud, laughing leader of the underground gang in Mystery Science Theater 3000 Show #705, Escape 2000.

:confused:

Oracle_Hunter

2008-10-19, 05:30 PM

Actually, it isn't (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2007-05-09), unless I'm forgetting something.
What Dominic could do to help there? Well, I have no idea. None at all (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GodModeSue).

Nakta is Chandak Necromancy (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2007-05-02), and Chandaks use some sort of Ecomancy (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2005-06-15)... which doesn't make any more sense, of course.

In any case, the Shintula practice Nakta, and according to Dominic, they're the only ones who know how to fix the Plains. Of course, Dominic meant to add "with my help, of course" at the end :smalltongue:

EDIT:
Added well after the fact, but I noticed that Jacob refers to "earthly Necromancy" (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2007-05-06) after having studied the rock from Maltak.

And trying to understand Mookie's magic system is a lot like banging your head against a wall. It doesn't accomplish anything and it's a pain to do. :smallbiggrin:

Johnny Blade

2008-10-19, 06:52 PM

Nakta is Chandak Necromancy (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2007-05-02), and Chandaks use some sort of Ecomancy (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2005-06-15)... which doesn't make any more sense, of course.
Hm. I always just assumed that Dominic and Jacob found out that the Nakta wasn't necromantic at all and the "necromantic impression" Jacob mentioned was not part of it. But this doesn't quite seem to be what Mookie had in mind. However, Mookie's assumed idea makes no sense to me. I mean, if the Nakta is part Necromancy and part Ecomancy, and Rilian is the first necromancer who invented that school of magic, why do the reclusive Shintula know about that? Why did they make it part of their magic? Okay, that can be explained in a way that actually makes some sense - although Mookie probably won't do that - as a few hundred years have passed since Rilian came up with the concept of Necromancy and the Shintula probably weren't always racist recluses. Not before the war that poisoned Maltak, at least.
The concept itself, however, is still strange.

(I'd really like to know what "black magic" means in the strip I linked to. Does that include Necromancy? Probably, but what about the "Larathian Laws of Necromancy" then? Did they just use them to find out whether or not the Nakta was necromantic and it turned out not to be? Ah, well, whatever will be the answer Mookie gives us some time in the future will probably contradict every single logical interpretation that's possible right now anyway.)

Gez

2008-10-19, 06:56 PM

So instead, I'll point out that there is a crystal ball on this shelf, which might indicate that Rillian does, indeed, possess real seer powers (as opposed to the generic Mysterious Mentor powers of "I have no way to know this, but I do anyway!"). Unless Mookie just put it in there without much thought as generic item a magician's shelf might contain, which is much more likely.
I'm surprised at how little stuff one might relate to necromancy somehow there is. No skulls, bones, flesh, blight, nothing?

And I must protest at this depiction of a wizard's laboratory that does not contain a stuffed alligator hanging from the ceiling.

Zocelot

2008-10-19, 07:05 PM

Hm. I always just assumed that Dominic and Jacob found out that the Nakta wasn't necromantic at all and the "necromantic impression" Jacob mentioned was not part of it. But this doesn't quite seem to be what Mookie had in mind. However, Mookie's assumed idea makes no sense to me. I mean, if the Nakta is part Necromancy and part Ecomancy, and Rilian is the first necromancer who invented that school of magic, why do the reclusive Shintula know about that? Why did they make it part of their magic? Okay, that can be explained in a way that actually makes some sense - although Mookie probably won't do that - as a few hundred years have passed since Rilian came up with the concept of Necromancy and the Shintula probably weren't always racist recluses. Not before the war that poisoned Maltak, at least.
The concept itself, however, is still strange.

(I'd really like to know what "black magic" means in the strip I linked to. Does that include Necromancy? Probably, but what about the "Larathian Laws of Necromancy" then? Did they just use them to find out whether or not the Nakta was necromantic and it turned out not to be? Ah, well, whatever will be the answer Mookie gives us some time in the future will probably contradict every single logical interpretation that's possible right now anyway.)

I just figure that Rillian, being the self-indulgent guy that he is, visited the Plains of Maltak, saw necromancy, and took credit for it. He knew full well that the Callanians were both racist and stupid, so they wouldn't believe that orcs invented it.

Mr. Scaly

2008-10-19, 07:21 PM

And I must protest at this depiction of a wizard's laboratory that does not contain a stuffed alligator hanging from the ceiling.

Reptiles certainly make a wizard more wizardly.

Winterwind

2008-10-19, 07:26 PM

Excellent rants, Oracle_Hunter and Johnny. :smallsmile:

According to Brian, modern Necromancers are doing it wrong (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-06-27).Yes, but his present methods are not very different from those of other modern necromancers, now, aren't they? He has become half zombie himself, fighting his enemies with blight - so how come there are no signs of anything connected to what we know as necromancy nowadays whatsoever present in his laboratory?

It's not just that. This strip shows us what Dominion looked like centuries ago. Close to a thousand years, if I'm not mistaken.
And what do we see? Apparently the same technological level and clothing, indicating that science and culture of Dominion have been relatively stagnant for a significant amount of time.Judging by Brillian questioning Dominic with regards to Rillian's supposed achievements, it sounds as if even more time than that has passed.

Of course, there is an explanation for this curious fact.
You see, this strip shows us a time when magic, an unpredictable force in Dominion anyway, wasn't yet fully explored, since Rilian managed to invent a whole school all by himself.
Now, a couple of years later, magic was probably fully explored - although, of course, it's sometimes just magic.
This, as any reader of this comic knows, allowed most of the problems one could now possibly face in life to be solved by saying a few simple words -and you don't even need to know what you're doing (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-03-29)!
So, the need for technological progress had been drastically reduced.You are forgetting, however, that
a) We know of at least one more field of magic that was discovered (or, at least, greatly expanded) only later, this field being Law magic, by Acibek (Acibek's Principle, etc.), and
b) Luna is working in a magic laboratory, which seems to operate rather similarly (if more chaotically) to real laboratories.

So, not only should there be progress, it also should happen at a rate much closer to the rapid knowledge gain of our real-world-civilisation, instead of the somewhat slower progress of centuries long past.

Johnny Blade

2008-10-19, 07:41 PM

EDIT:
Added well after the fact, but I noticed that Jacob refers to "earthly Necromancy" (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2007-05-06) after having studied the rock from Maltak.

And trying to understand Mookie's magic system is a lot like banging your head against a wall. It doesn't accomplish anything and it's a pain to do. :smallbiggrin:
Okay, that's either the rare case of a pun that isn't bolded (since Mookie didn't actually get it himself), or simply Mookie.

By the way, I find it hilarious what Jacob says about this necromantic impression on a rock in the third panel of this strip (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2007-05-02). I mean, if you think this through, this rock is dead. As in, decomposing organic material dead. Confirmed by an expert Necromancer.

Poor little stone people. :smallfrown:

You are forgetting, however, that
a) We know of at least one more field of magic that was discovered (or, at least, greatly expanded) only later, this field being Law magic, by Acibek (Acibek's Principle, etc.), and
b) Luna is working in a magic laboratory, which seems to operate rather similarly (if more chaotically) to real laboratories.

So, not only should there be progress, it also should happen at a rate much closer to the rapid knowledge gain of our real-world-civilisation, instead of the somewhat slower progress of centuries long past.
Well, first off, I meant non-magical technology. I guess that wasn't really clear.
Also: Yes, Acibek seems to have appeared later, although I don't remember if it was ever stated when.
And the arcane lab seems to mainly take existing magic and apply or expand it.
Anyway, I guess it can be assumed that magic has replaced mundane technology hundreds of years ago, before the latter could even develop really far. (There are almost no combinations of the two, by the way.)

Oracle_Hunter

2008-10-19, 07:57 PM

Well... since I'm a glutton for punishment, I figured I should call up some of Mookie's Theory of Magic Strips to find some clarity.

First of all, we have Miranda's Theory of the Planes (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2005-01-10).

Destruction appears to be a Metaphysical Plane, possibly in opposition to Creation. Neither are defined, but the Nakta is tied to the Plane of Destruction (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2007-05-09).

Miranda failed to mention that there are actually an infinite number of planes (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2005-02-27) connected by a Planar Pathway. Klo Tark chills out there, when he's not dead.

In addition to these Planes, there appear to be many different "kinds" of magic:
Alteration Magic (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2005-01-08) that appears to exist to creep people out via Body Horror (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BodyHorror). These may be involved in creating an Elemental Changeling (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2007-03-21).

Time Magic (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2005-01-11) which can compress time dramatically. Though taught in school, nobody ever seems to use it.

Nature Magic (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2005-06-15) which is called "Chandak" by the Orcs and is tied to the elements. Callanians refer to this as Ecomancy. Nature Magic may have ties to the Elemental Planes as well.

Elemental Alchemy (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2005-06-16) is practiced by Cassafinn Sunderliss. This may or may not be "nature magic" but it is certainly elemental and it involves potions rather than spells.

Divination Magic (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2007-01-04) (or "Second Sight") is also taught in schools and apparently quite easy to learn. Strangely enough, nobody seems to ever use it either, despite it's ability to answer questions before they are asked (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2007-01-05) and solve crimes.

Necromancy (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-06-28) is generally used to speak with spirits, perform funerary rituals, and make zombies. Practitioners of Necromancy seem to enjoy shedding their flesh, and surviving quite well without it - so it may have strong healing powers (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2005-03-06) as well.

Psychic Magic, practiced by Sorcerer Psions (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2005-06-03), can look into the hearts and minds of people. Again, nobody aside from Dominic seems to be familiar with this incredibly useful magic.

White Magic is apparently quite effective against Devils (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2002-12-31) and can heal just about anything.

aaaand there's also Wolf Magic and Slime Magic, and some others I am now too tired to look up.

As for "what is Black Magic?"

I think it has to be magic tied to the Plane of Destruction or Hell, since White Magic seems tied to the Planes of Heaven and Creation. It should be noted that Dominic is then drawing the distinction between Nature Magic (which is element based) that also channels Destruction (as Aceibek's Principle channels Law) and magic that is Destruction based.

Mr. Scaly

2008-10-19, 08:07 PM

Yes, but his present methods are not very different from those of other modern necromancers, now, aren't they? He has become half zombie himself, fighting his enemies with blight - so how come there are no signs of anything connected to what we know as necromancy nowadays whatsoever present in his laboratory?

Two reasons as I see it. 1) He'd just thought up a whole new concept of magic and its underlying premise but hadn't fine tuned it yet. At the very least he hadn't ripped off half of his face yet. Or 2) he already knew what necromancy would entail but wanted to keep his old life so he keeps the necromancy stuff in a separate lab. Those are my first thoughts on it anyway.

MReav

2008-10-19, 08:39 PM

Miranda failed to mention that there are actually an infinite number of planes (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2005-02-27) connected by a Planar Pathway. Klo Tark chills out there, when he's not dead.

Well, he might be saying that the planes he's connected to are infinite, not the number of planes.

Oracle_Hunter

2008-10-19, 08:46 PM

Yes, but his present methods are not very different from those of other modern necromancers, now, aren't they? He has become half zombie himself, fighting his enemies with blight - so how come there are no signs of anything connected to what we know as necromancy nowadays whatsoever present in his laboratory?

Personally, I think the "this is prototype magic - we'll figure out applications later" explanation is persuasive. Though in the alternative, we haven't seen the other side(s?) of Rilian's lab; for all we know there's an Emo Altar of Skulls, Blood, and Black on the opposite wall, casting light with its unholy flame. :smalltongue:

EDIT:

Well, he might be saying that the planes he's connected to are infinite, not the number of planes.

That's pretty Zen. Are you saying that it's possible to be connected to an infinite number of planes when there are actually only a finite number of planes in existence? :smallconfused:

MReav

2008-10-19, 08:56 PM

That's pretty Zen. Are you saying that it's possible to be connected to an infinite number of planes when there are actually only a finite number of planes in existence? :smallconfused:

No, my comment was that there may be a finite number of planes, but the individual planes themselves are infinite. So if there are 10 infinite planes, and my pad is connected to each of them, then I am connected to all the infinite planes.

You know, I've been rereading some of the older stuff. The art has still stagnated and some of the stuff is rather eye-raising, but I have to admit, back in the Storm of Souls, it wasn't that bad. Sadly, it has since gone downhill.

Off a cliff.

Into an infinite chasm.

Deus_e_Machina

2008-10-20, 12:22 AM

No, my comment was that there may be a finite number of planes, but the individual planes themselves are infinite. So if there are 10 infinite planes, and my pad is connected to each of them, then I am connected to all the infinite planes.

I can see that reading from the text but I think it's more likely that there are in fact infinitely many planes - however, elemental planes and metaphysical planes are distinct from the infinite physical planes of reality, or something to that effect. Perhaps the planes of existence are forked like Everett's Many-Worlds, but are in a different category? Perhaps Mookie just overloaded the word 'planes' because it sounds really nifty in multiple connotations? Perhaps Mookie just didn't think about it? I dunno. You decide.

In other news, on the train ride I took today, I had a very eerie dream. I was in a costume of Dominic with the eyepatch (I was wearing my eyepatch at the time, strangely) at a con, and introduced myself as Lord Dominus to Mookie. He laughed and asked if I frequented these forums, swore me to secrecy, and revealed himself as one of the snarkers. However, for the life of me I can't remember what username he claimed was his.

Interpret that as you will.

Nerd-o-rama

2008-10-20, 12:39 AM

Clearly it's ElfLad.

Also, I sort of liked this splash page in a "everything's funnier with Batman" kind of way. Would have been better without the second set of speech bubbles, but eh.

Midnight Lurker

2008-10-20, 01:54 AM

He should have gone with "splorch."

Trazoi

2008-10-20, 02:14 AM

New strip for Monday! (http://dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-10-20)

Whoo, some kind of prophecy that involved Luna as "The One"? Well, at least it isn't Dom.

Two thumbs up for the last panel though. I love Celesto's expression and eye direction towards the four panels above him - you know he's thinking "Ah, to hell with this twist!"

Nevrmore

2008-10-20, 02:36 AM

Well, at least it isn't Dom.
This would be a valid reassurance if not for the fact that it's Luna.

Two thumbs up for the last panel though. I love Celesto's expression and eye direction towards the four panels above him - you know he's thinking "Ah, to hell with this twist!"
It just looks like he has a lazy eye to me. Apparently Michael just can't draw a pupil on the inner edge of someone's eyeball without it gravitating towards their nose.

Also, Rilian looks like he has some sort of Freddie Mercury moustache in panel 6.

Nerd-o-rama

2008-10-20, 02:44 AM

Okay, so that's...two shots for the generic fantasy tropes drinking game for "prophecy" and "The Chosen One", and three for the ways-Dominic-Deegan-fails drinking game for yet more retcons, Celesto's expression, and "Mookie is totally reading this thread" vibe.

BRB gotta get a new liver.

Trazoi

2008-10-20, 02:50 AM

I just noticed that in the eight panels there is only one hand shown, in a somewhat masked pose too. Briefly flicking through the previous few strips there also seems to be a lot of crossed arms, hands behind back and hands cut off by panel borders.

Anyone who has tried some cartooning knows that hands are one of the trickiest things to draw (I haven't got the hang of drawing them yet), so often beginner artists will pick poses that avoid having to draw hands. I know Mookie can draw simple hands in his strips, but the number of hidden hands in the last few strips look like he's trying to avoid having to draw them. Maybe he's rushed for time with all these characters in the one strip?

Jahkaivah

2008-10-20, 02:53 AM

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c226/saxcsa/ChosenOne.jpg

Nerd-o-rama

2008-10-20, 03:32 AM

Precisely.

The Rose Dragon

2008-10-20, 03:50 AM

Mookie is trying to be less original and meaningful than he was before.

Clearly, he is to be applauded for the effort.

Johnny Blade

2008-10-20, 04:11 AM

Wait...Lynn's Brook?
I bet the Infernomancer is about to burn Dominic's hometown for extra cliché.

This would be a valid reassurance if not for the fact that it's Luna.
Indeed.
Although, I think Dominic being the Chosen One twice would be even worse.

Oh, and Celesto should really go and see an eye specialist.

And stop going commando in skin-tight leather pants.

Gez

2008-10-20, 05:03 AM

Wait...Lynn's Brook?
I bet the Infernomancer is about to burn Dominic's hometown for extra cliché.

Remember that the Dominus hated everyone from this town (except for Rachel Heart, who has since moved to Barthis)? Celesto is therefore about to enact karmic justice by making everyone undergo severe cases of full-body explosion.

Dom will see it in vision and say "oh noes!" to uphold appearances, but in the secret of his dark heart, he'll rejoice and cackle maniacally.

Doompuppy

2008-10-20, 05:15 AM

I've decided to interpret today's comic so as to make "damage control" refer to the fourteen hours of skin graft magic necessary to heal the survivors of the fireball. It makes me a little happier...

Mauve Shirt

2008-10-20, 07:16 AM

Two thumbs up for the last panel though. I love Celesto's expression and eye direction towards the four panels above him - you know he's thinking "Ah, to hell with this twist!"

Heh. I interpreted it that way as well.
This will be another episode of Celesto exploding stupid people in order to make peace with Dominic....why hasn't he figured out that this doesn't work?

Nevrmore

2008-10-20, 07:31 AM

I've decided to interpret today's comic so as to make "damage control" refer to the fourteen hours of skin graft magic necessary to heal the survivors of the fireball. It makes me a little happier...
Deep down Rilian is just happy that he finally has some zombie servants that can be lifeguards for him when he goes swimming now.

Khosan

2008-10-20, 08:27 AM

Winterwind

2008-10-20, 08:38 AM

Well, first off, I meant non-magical technology. I guess that wasn't really clear.
Also: Yes, Acibek seems to have appeared later, although I don't remember if it was ever stated when.
And the arcane lab seems to mainly take existing magic and apply or expand it.
Anyway, I guess it can be assumed that magic has replaced mundane technology hundreds of years ago, before the latter could even develop really far. (There are almost no combinations of the two, by the way.)I don't see how the distinction of magical and non-magical "technology" is at all relevant. Fact is, they have a set of potent rules with myriads of applications and the means to research them for the sake of further understanding and new inventions - whether the rules in question are the laws of physics or the laws of magic is, ultimately, unimportant, as the end result is the same. Over a thousand years, they should have come up with enough magical innovations for their world to differ just as much from that of young Rillian as our world differs from the Middle Ages by virtue of our technological innovations. And this, I should note, would doubtlessly have a major impact even on things not directly magical, such as architectural style and fashion - after all, we do not dress like people in 1200 AD, either. If, on the other hand, magic was sufficiently well understood even a thousand years ago for all practical applications to have been invented back then already - or even just enough of them to make the process of coming up with new ones slow enough for this apparent stagnancy to be whatsoever believable - then magical labs, as the one Luna works in, have no justification whatsoever.

EDIT: I swear if this arc turns into Celesto going nova in Lynn's Brook and Dom 'saving' him, I am going to beat my head against a wall.No, no, Celesto is Mookie's drama character, whereas homosexuality exists only for laughs.
...oh, wait, you meant 'save' as in 'rescue' there, and not... umm, nevermind... :smalltongue:

Killersquid

2008-10-20, 08:39 AM

EDIT: I swear if this arc turns into Celesto going nova in Lynn's Brook and Dom 'saving' him, I am going to beat my head against a wall.

Hell, if its even destroying the Doomed Hometown, I'll die from Cliche Exposure.

Mauve Shirt

2008-10-20, 08:44 AM

I have a question.

Why hasn't Celesto suffered from this 'Mindbreak' shenanigan? Surely, out of any seer anywhere, he has the most potential to break under pressure (he's lost a lover, nearly died multiple times, been witness to some of the more horrifying murders known to Dominion Ape, and most importantly spent a large amount of time in a plane of existence where logic ceased to apply) and go supernova. Hell, he's just as powerful as Dom so it'd be just as bad, if not worse since he can blow people up with his mind.

EDIT: I swear if this arc turns into Celesto going nova in Lynn's Brook and Dom 'saving' him, I am going to beat my head against a wall.

Because he hasn't done much since the Storm of Souls but blow people up and walk around monologuing. This entire week will be gory Celesto explosions. Yes, Mookie, we've seen what horrible things Celesto can do, can we at least have him explode someone for a different reason than to get Dominic over to the dark side?

HidaTsuzua

2008-10-20, 09:22 AM

With magic tied to the planes (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2005-01-10) and seers coming into being on the same day (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2007-01-18), I have a theory regarding Deeganverse magic. The planes empower certain types of magic and move "closer" and "further away" over time weakening that school much like magic in general for Shadowrun. Thus Rilian is the first necromancer because the planes responsible got into alignment for the first time in recorded history and he realized this. All those seers get their visions when that threshold for divination allowed visions.

Divination would therefore be on the decline until fairly recently when it took an unexpected rapid upswing. That'll explain why an infernomancer could be Royal Seer since he wasn't expected to do much and that other seers don't really seem to have powers like Madam Zanzibar. The effects of this powering of divination would obviously lag a bit explaining the few number of divination students and why someone like Serk didn't have protection.

This would also explain magical research. You would check to see if certain schools of magic were getting weaker/stronger as well as trying to detect and figure out new schools of magic if they come into being.

Winterwind

2008-10-20, 09:29 AM

This sounds both interesting and sensible, HidaTsuzua, and gets further bonus points for referencing ShadowRun :smallcool: ; the only problem is that if Mookie had indeed come up with something so interesting and elaborate, he doubtlessly would have shoved it in our faces to show it off by now (if not sooner, then during this very "world-construction" arc).

Draconic

2008-10-20, 09:30 AM

Why do I have the awful feeling that this arc is supposed to be the one that is intended for Luna to establish herself as a powerful character and she can also be as much of a Mary Sue as Dom save the world? I'm all for the empowerment of women in comics, but Luna is so far gone she's irredeemable. I mean, out of ALL THIS TIME of world saving, she's just NOW being designated as a "Chosen One".

On a more amusing note, maybe Celesto is just on his way to meet the merry band of conspirators? Now that's an epileptic tree I'd enjoy. :smalltongue:

Nerd-o-rama

2008-10-20, 09:30 AM

Morty

2008-10-20, 09:32 AM

It would be amusing to see how people are coming up with plausible explanations for what Mookie throws in ad hoc when and how it's needed if it wasn't so depressing.

Nerd-o-rama

2008-10-20, 09:39 AM

Let's be fair, there's a long and honored tradition of things like this.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/al0013/1222885508932.png

HidaTsuzua

2008-10-20, 10:40 AM

It would be amusing to see how people are coming up with plausible explanations for what Mookie throws in ad hoc when and how it's needed if it wasn't so depressing.

Oh, I agree. I'm trying to figure out the limits of Mookie's planning myself. What I'm hoping is that Mookie reads this thread and uses it. It's a long shot, but it'll be nice that something makes sense in this "magic is just magic" world of Dominic Deegan.

Speaking of planning, it would have made some sense if Rilian's plan really was "plant Chekhov's Guns (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChekhovsGun) and see if Dominius and First Puppet can use them." It'll explain why Rilian was just fooling around just hanging out with them and why the vacation for being a "test" was actually pretty relaxing (and boring). Unfortunately, this makes little sense with the "test Dominic and kill him if he fails" plan. I guess it can be retconned that the test Dominic plan was the cover story and the gun planting was the real aim. I don't think Mookie planned it that way going forward, but could work overall.

Also Winterwind, Shadowrun is awesome. My next PC will definitely be a groin punching biker dwarf street samurai. :smallbiggrin: Was that dwarf ever named?

Gez

2008-10-20, 10:46 AM

Also Winterwind, Shadowrun is awesome. My next PC will definitely be a groin punching biker dwarf street samurai. :smallbiggrin: Was that dwarf ever named?

Nope, but I suggest Shorty McAwesome.

Speaking of him... I know why groin punching was part of the conspiracy. When Rilian told the guys they had to test Dominic, Shorty McAwesome understood that as having to testes Dominic. And that he did.

Enlong

2008-10-20, 10:55 AM

What result? Did the Dragon's speech actually do anyting visible?

Also, I'm having trouble with Celesto's face in the last panel. Am I seeing one really ornate eyebrow, or does he have his left eye closed and his right eye open, or are his eyes hidden by his glasses? I don't know! Help me out here.

Arioch

2008-10-20, 10:58 AM

Well I guess this strip wasn't so bad, I mean It's not as though OH DEAR GOD WHAT'S WRONG WITH HIS EYE!

Ahem. Sorry. Anyway. At least it deals with the whole Aquelostrindaladaladingdong thing, and SERIOUSLY, WHAT THE HELL IS UP WITH CELESTO'S EYE?

Conversely, since Luna's "expected" reaction to the dragon's words was "Dragon dragon oh my god dragon oh god dragon dragon!", perhaps that just "revealed" how braindead she was. Or maybe the dragon is just that vain.

Gez

2008-10-20, 11:06 AM

Conversely, since Luna's "expected" reaction to the dragon's words was "Dragon dragon oh my god dragon oh god dragon dragon!", perhaps that just "revealed" how braindead she was.
Actually, they didn't say "She's the One", they said "she's the 'one'" as that is how much she scored on her IQ test.

Mr. Scaly

2008-10-20, 11:13 AM

Morty

2008-10-20, 11:16 AM

Conversely, since Luna's "expected" reaction to the dragon's words was "Dragon dragon oh my god dragon oh god dragon dragon!", perhaps that just "revealed" hpw braindead she was. Or maybe the dragon is just that vain.

Am I the only one who finds Luna's recent brain-dead stupidity(I wanna see the hobgoblins! Weeee!) very amusing when compared to how "brilliant" she was supposed to be when introduced?
I guess not.

Mr. Scaly

2008-10-20, 11:19 AM

Smart people can get really dumb around things. My sister is very smart and gliding through university but babbles like a goofball around cats.

Morty

2008-10-20, 11:27 AM

Smart people can get really dumb around things. My sister is very smart and gliding through university but babbles like a goofball around cats.

There's a difference between cats and murderous, insane savages, though.

Tom_Violence

2008-10-20, 11:29 AM

he's just as powerful as Dom

Piffle! If anyone were ever to actually become as powerful as Dominic then Dominic would just become a little(/a lot) more powerful as a result. Last time I remember big changes in 'power levels' was the Storm of Souls thing (yeah, I'm sure other stuff has happened since, but I pay very little overall attention), when some people became awesome avatars of stuff. And then Dominic became the most awesomest.

So, the reason why Celesto hasn't gone boom, and perhaps the reason why the mindbreak thing is so very rare, is because Dommykins is the only person ever to be so gosh-darn amazing as to be a risk of it. I strongly suspect this may have been Mookie's attempt to add flaws to his Marty Stu, but I think he dropped the ball a bit. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CursedWithAwesome)

Why do I have the awful feeling that this arc is supposed to be the one that is intended for Luna to establish herself as a powerful character and she can also be as much of a Mary Sue as Dom save the world? I'm all for the empowerment of women in comics, but Luna is so far gone she's irredeemable. I mean, out of ALL THIS TIME of world saving, she's just NOW being designated as a "Chosen One".

I agree - isn't Luna already supposed to be one of the most powerful sorceresses (or whatever) around? Next up, Superman wins the Olympics!

What result? Did the Dragon's speech actually do anyting visible?

Obviously. Otherwise Mookie wouldn't've had to retcon it so.

Oh wait...

Oracle_Hunter

2008-10-20, 11:33 AM

Why hasn't Celesto suffered from this 'Mindbreak' shenanigan? Surely, out of any seer anywhere, he has the most potential to break under pressure (he's lost a lover, nearly died multiple times, been witness to some of the more horrifying murders known to Dominion Ape, and most importantly spent a large amount of time in a plane of existence where logic ceased to apply) and go supernova. Hell, he's just as powerful as Dom so it'd be just as bad, if not worse since he can blow people up with his mind.

Because unlike Dominic, Celesto can handle his personal problems. Usually by chaos bombing people, but to each their own, right :smalltongue:

Plus, Celesto is inherently stable. He has gone to a plane of pure madness and come back sane (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-04-22). Dominic, on the other hand, nearly explodes because he ran out of candy. If I were Rilian, I'd be more concerned about Dominic too :smallsigh:

Today's Comic
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

Why... why would Mookie do this? Make Luna a Mary Sue? I mean, more than she already was? Do you know how many Mary Sue Points being the Chosen One is worth? Gah!

Did Mookie really Asspull all of this? It... seems like he may have actually planned this out in advance, but sucked terribly at executing it. I think that has to be the case, I really do. :smallannoyed:

Well... at least we get to see the destruction of Lynn's Brook. That's... something?

averagejoe

2008-10-20, 11:41 AM

I consider myself vindicated.

I know the eye isn't that popular but I like the pose. It's like Celesto has an ooc fourth wall breaking hunch about what's going to happen next.

And I'm pretty sure that Lynn's Brook is safe. Celesto only kills people he sees as monsters or too corrupt to live, not annoying villagers. Of course if they break out the torches and pitch forks they're screwed...

As the end of today's strip probably hints... things may or may not get splattery around here.

Today's strip definitely hints at good things to come, though I've long ago learned not to trust hope when examining DD. I do have one concern: Celesto's newly developed lazy eye. No good villain can have a lazy eye. He'll have to get an eyepatch of doom to cover it up, which would be kinda silly on a guy who needs glasses.

Mr. Scaly

2008-10-20, 11:50 AM

There's a difference between cats and murderous, insane savages, though.

Several of those cats tried scratching her up badly. Didn't change much. :smallwink:

Today's strip definitely hints at good things to come, though I've long ago learned not to trust hope when examining DD. I do have one concern: Celesto's newly developed lazy eye. No good villain can have a lazy eye. He'll have to get an eyepatch of doom to cover it up, which would be kinda silly on a guy who needs glasses.

He could go for a monocle.

Oracle_Hunter

2008-10-20, 11:53 AM

Smart people can get really dumb around things. My sister is very smart and gliding through university but babbles like a goofball around cats.

This is a well known phenomenon (http://www.xkcd.com/231/).

Mr. Scaly

2008-10-20, 11:55 AM

This is a well known phenomenon (http://www.xkcd.com/231/).

Wow. Just...wow. If that's not a trope, then it should be.

Oracle_Hunter

2008-10-20, 12:02 PM

Wow. Just...wow. If that's not a trope, then it should be.

No, no trope. It has nothing to do with media, it's just a fact of life. :smallbiggrin:

Friv

2008-10-20, 12:06 PM

Well, I admit I was wrong. Once again, I overestimated Mookie - this time, his grasp of the English language.

As it turns out, "success" can be defined as "near-disaster that I had to step in and desperately turn around".

Enlong

2008-10-20, 12:15 PM

OK. Because I feel like putting it into writing, here's how I'd do parts of the next arc to fix a few things.

It starts out with a disaster back at Lynn's Brook. TIM has stormed the place, and is tearing up the populace. Dominic uses a Bookmark to take himself, Luna, and Gregory there.
The place is in ruins, and Gregory tries to heal one of the mortally wounded townspeople. Only it doesn't work, or not enough. He heals the guy, but only partway.
He asks Dom what's wrong with his magic, and Jacob (!) informs him that nothing's wrong. He shows up behind them, and explains that when he had the Blight, his natural reserves of magic built up behind the necrotic blockage, like a plugged-up hose. When the Blight was removed, Greg's magic flowed like crazy, leading to a crazy amount of power and random uncontrollable bursts of magic. However, he's burned off enough of the excess that he's dropped back down to his natural levels, and some feats are now well beyond his capacity.
Dom asks him what's going on, and Jacob vanishes, revealing TIM's figure. TIM is incoherent, deadly, and just plain crazy. Luna tries to use Illusions(TM) to fight him, but he just strides through everything like the Terminator. A battle ensues, involving Greg applying Weight to TIM's gloves, making the claws Bounce, etc, but eventually TIM impales Luna. Greg uses magic to stabilize her condition, but TIM starts carving him up instead. Dom tries everything he can, which is not much, to heal them or fight TIM, to no avail. Completely hopeless, he cracks, and goes into Mindbreak.
No clue what happens after that, except that Celesto invades Dom's mindscape, where things are going nuts. Celesto fights hordes of zombie Lunas and Gregories, and reaches Dom's mind, and there's a battle of the minds, where Celesto wins. There must be at least one point where he goes back to the points they made back in Storm of Souls, with Celesto telling Dom that he was wrong about Dom; Dominic is never really right, and does not deserve his title.
When Dom finally snaps out of it, the battle has been happening around him for a while. He's stuck in a bubble of white magic, next to Gregory, Luna, and Jayden, who is healing them and protecting him. Meanwhile, TIM is fighting Quilt, who is making full use of Chosen-style shadow claws and spierwebs and stuff. Someone has to scold Dominic for not trusting them enough to tell them about the impending threats before the story is done.

But that's just me.

Johnny Blade

2008-10-20, 12:27 PM

I don't see how the distinction of magical and non-magical "technology" is at all relevant.
It's relevant for explaining the lack of progress of non-magical technology.
However, it really doesn't have a lot to do with what you wrote.

Fact is, they have a set of potent rules with myriads of applications and the means to research them for the sake of further understanding and new inventions - whether the rules in question are the laws of physics or the laws of magic is, ultimately, unimportant, as the end result is the same. Over a thousand years, they should have come up with enough magical innovations for their world to differ just as much from that of young Rillian as our world differs from the Middle Ages by virtue of our technological innovations. And this, I should note, would doubtlessly have a major impact even on things not directly magical, such as architectural style and fashion - after all, we do not dress like people in 1200 AD, either. If, on the other hand, magic was sufficiently well understood even a thousand years ago for all practical applications to have been invented back then already - or even just enough of them to make the process of coming up with new ones slow enough for this apparent stagnancy to be whatsoever believable - then magical labs, as the one Luna works in, have no justification whatsoever.
What I meant was: Most of the important principles of magic are explored. (It still is just magic sometimes, of course.)
What Luna and her team are mainly doing is working with theories and categories that, apparently, are hundreds of years old. That's not quite how it is in our world, although they of course still make progress.
So, what I think is that, as far as practical applications are concerned, magic has replaced non-magical technology a long time ago, enabling the Noble Nerd to establish his superiority. This has lead to a fragmented, hierarchical society consisting of isolated strata, hostile to each other, and therefore a higher need for tradition and preservation among them.
Therefore, I reckon that, while not the same phenomenon, the stagnancy of non-magical technology and culture of the Dominion Apes are related.

Am I the only one who finds Luna's recent brain-dead stupidity(I wanna see the hobgoblins! Weeee!) very amusing when compared to how "brilliant" she was supposed to be when introduced?
I guess not.
Just look at the last few pages of the Strip Slays thread. :smallbiggrin:

Winterwind

2008-10-20, 12:58 PM

Also Winterwind, Shadowrun is awesome. My next PC will definitely be a groin punching biker dwarf street samurai. :smallbiggrin: Mmmm... groin punch assisted by Muscle Replacement/Augmentation and Titanium-Laced Bones... I think you are on to something here. :smallbiggrin:

OK. Because I feel like putting it into writing, here's how I'd do parts of the next arc to fix a few things.
[...]A most radical De-Sueification, but exactly what the comic would need right now, I dare say. Indeed, something along these lines might, perhaps, restore some of my respect for Dominic Deegan again.

It's relevant for explaining the lack of progress of non-magical technology.
However, it really doesn't have a lot to do with what you wrote.

What I meant was: Most of the important principles of magic are explored. (It still is just magic sometimes, of course.)
What Luna and her team are mainly doing is working with theories and categories that, apparently, are hundreds of years old. That's not quite how it is in our world, although they of course still make progress.
So, what I think is that, as far as practical applications are concerned, magic has replaced non-magical technology a long time ago, enabling the Noble Nerd to establish his superiority. This has lead to a fragmented, hierarchical society consisting of isolated strata, hostile to each other, and therefore a higher need for tradition and preservation among them.
Therefore, I reckon that, while not the same phenomenon, the stagnancy of non-magical technology and culture of the Dominion Apes are related.I think we have some misunderstanding here.

I do not contest that magic has replaced technology in the Dominion and has, by its many applications, made technology superfluous and hereby brought the advance of the latter to a halt. However, this has nothing to do with what I am trying to point out.

My point is that, since magic has replaced technology, the advance of magic should have just as dramatic consequences for Dominion's society as the advance of technology had for ours. Considering how the academic community in Dominion is structured (very similar to ours) and how scientific research is done (seemingly similar to ours as well), taking into account a school (though I think it's more akin to a university) has a fairly highly staffed lab, where strange magic is done every day and fabulous animals are being held for whatever reasons, it seems magical research is very well funded. I'm led to believe that there is just as much progress in magic as there is in real world sciences, which fits well with Dominion being just like the real world.

What I am ultimately trying to achieve is to point out the massive hole in the comic's continuity. Now, as easy it is to forget while posting within this thread, but the Caste System is our own creation that captures Dominic's Mary Sueishness and some subtleties beyond that, and not canon. Canonically, there is no fracture going through Callan's society, at least not along the lines of Nerds and Jocks, no true need for holding on to tradition. Therefore I deem it unlikely, to say the least, that the massive advance in magic that must have occured within the last thousand years*1 should not have had an equally massive impact on Callanian culture and all aspects of everyday life. In fact, even if there was such a divide, I still do not think it could have prevented the changes a massive magi-scientific advance would have brought with it from sipping into the rest of civilisation, not to mention that advance that had no purpose and no application would hardly be funded like this.

*1 One could argue that a large part of those thousand years was spent in stagnancy, before the culture changed in such a manner as to allow for the rapid research that apparently takes place now. However, this argument is self-defeating, for its very implication of big changes in the society.

PaladinFreak

2008-10-20, 01:05 PM

Soo.... What? Is The First Puppet the chosen one now? I mean, this arc has broken the WTF-o-meter, but this latest stuff is just bizzare.

Johnny Blade

2008-10-20, 01:06 PM

@ Winterwind:
Ah, okay, looks like I misunderstood you then, since this was actually the reason for my theory: making fun of the ridiculousness of the continuity by means of equally ridiculous pseudo-science.

I thought you were doing the same because, well, it's been known to happen. :smallwink:

However, looks like you weren't.

Winterwind

2008-10-20, 01:16 PM

No, this time I was just turning the comic's inconsistancy upon itself, in a sort of "Stop beating yourself! Stop beating yourself! Stop beating yourself!" manner. :smallbiggrin:

Fangly

2008-10-20, 01:30 PM

I like this idea of magic waxing and waning; that certain schools of magic are stronger than others at different times. But what if it was taken further? What if all of these magic planes grew extremely weak for a period of time? It would explain why Jocks, the obviously inferior species, still exists. Not too long ago they were the most powerful. This explains why there's only one university: there was more of a focus on physical prowess. And because Jocks are dumb, during their reign there was little to no intellectual advancement. Instead, we got Slaughterball.

Now, magic has just begun to rise again. This explains why there's so little magic and so few magic resistant people. It explains why there are nurses and not just white mages. This also explains why Dominic wasn't immediately hailed as the savior of all mankind in his original appearance in Lynn Brook. Magic hadn't begun to be recognized as the now dominate trait of a Dominion Ape.

Therefore, much magical "technology" is a recent development. This could explain how slowly society advances: because every time the planes shift they need to figure out a new way to exist. Now that there's more magic more magic is showing up in the world. Soon physical prowess will be less valuable.

The death of Siggy's father signals an end to the reign of strong, nonmagical kings. Like most regime changes, it was bloody and violent. There's an upheaval in Hell, the sudden Storm of Souls, the rise in Oracle Hunters (a resistance movement by the physical trying to combat the inevitable rise of the magical).

On another note: does anyone know where Luna says alterists are creepy? I spent a ridiculous amount of time trying to find it last night. I don't need the exact link, but if someone remembers what story arc it was in that'd be great. Too much archive binging on DD hurts my thinky place.

Oracle_Hunter

2008-10-20, 02:04 PM

On another note: does anyone know where Luna says alterists are creepy? I spent a ridiculous amount of time trying to find it last night. I don't need the exact link, but if someone remembers what story arc it was in that'd be great. Too much archive binging on DD hurts my thinky place.

Actually, Luna never says it, but Dom does (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2006-07-25).

sihnfahl

2008-10-20, 02:17 PM

Now, magic has just begun to rise again. This explains why there's so little magic and so few magic resistant people. It explains why there are nurses and not just white mages. This also explains why Dominic wasn't immediately hailed as the savior of all mankind in his original appearance in Lynn Brook. Magic hadn't begun to be recognized as the now dominate trait of a Dominion Ape.
So, you're saying that magic waxes and wanes.

Well, when the Shintula use some of their UberNakta to blow up a volcano or two in Callan to convince them to leave them alone and finally formalize hard borders ....

... we've already got the dragons, elves and dwarves ...

Fangly

2008-10-20, 02:43 PM

Actually, Luna never says it, but Dom does (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2006-07-25).

Well crap. Doesn't Luna explain why she hasn't gone to an alterist at some point?

we've already got the dragons, elves and dwarves

That is an excellent point. But dragons are typically pretty old, they could be leftovers. Elves and dwarves are not inherently magical, so I think my theory could still work.

But perhaps I haven't explained myself very well. I have a tendency to do that.

Gez

2008-10-20, 03:02 PM

Sinfahl was talking about turning DD into a Tolkien rip off. Which is indeed probable as it would be a method of failure that Mookie hasn't explored yet.

However, dragons are Always Chaotic Evil in Tolkien's books; something which is evidently not the case in the dominion. But dragons didn't play a large role in Lord of the Rings so it's okay. Maybe they could replace the giant eagles.

Oracle_Hunter

2008-10-20, 03:03 PM

Well crap. Doesn't Luna explain why she hasn't gone to an alterist at some point?

Um... not that I can see, actually. I don't think anyone's actually suggested it either. :smallconfused:

I guess we all just assumed that's why Luna didn't get her teeth fixed. Weird.

sihnfahl

2008-10-20, 03:07 PM

Sinfahl was talking about turning DD into a Tolkien rip off. Which is indeed probable as it would be a method of failure that Mookie hasn't explored yet.
Actually, my reference was to something else entirely. Old game system that suffered from numerous checks. (All... those ... ROLLS).

Shadowrun.

:smallyuk:

Cthclain

2008-10-20, 03:08 PM

Gesh, can't miss a day any more can you?:smalltongue:

Love the theory on Magic, the waxing and waning of different planes influencing the world and changing society. It's gives a good explanation for the state of the Dominion world; every X years there magic comes into and out of the world, changing the world as a whole. While magic is powerful we see t take the role of technology and leave behind powerful sorcerers that can alter the world to their wills, leading them to dominate and ruler in oligarchy over the non-users.

But once magic weakens the jocks and non-users are able to overthrow the sorcerers and seers, breaking down their regimes. From this they form new states divided regions and customs closer to the real world, unfortunately since pure technology was worthless in the previous age, and only a few are educated enough to be inventors, they fall back to a simpler medieval levels.

In fact this also can explain why societal values seem so modern: they were created during the age of magic and kept even after the fall, so ideas of equality, individual rights and such made a lasting impression on these cultures, perhaps because they expressed a view contrary to the Magic Ages' own values and systems.

Now that Magic is getting stronger again, the old systems are falling apart and magical rule is slowly returning. But first they must rediscover their old secrets, too much was lost during the last change by the fearful jocks hoping to prevent the cycle from continuing or out of vengeance. The really old and powerful users are simple those wise enough to hide away, and enter a state of magical hibernation to awaken when the planes came closer again, are mentoring and aiding the recreation of the new era.

There's no way this is actually the case, but I'd love to see this used somewhere.

Zocelot

2008-10-20, 03:18 PM

Question: When the infernomancer is refered to, people use the name TIM. Is this short for The InfernoMancer, or a Monty Python reference?

sihnfahl

2008-10-20, 03:24 PM

Question: When the infernomancer is refered to, people use the name TIM. Is this short for The InfernoMancer, or a Monty Python reference?
Both. (Darned minimum post length requirement...)

Mauve Shirt

2008-10-20, 03:27 PM

Well crap. Doesn't Luna explain why she hasn't gone to an alterist at some point?

This (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2003-09-29) is the closest thing to an explanation.

Fangly

2008-10-20, 03:37 PM

Actually, my reference was to something else entirely. Old game system that suffered from numerous checks. (All... those ... ROLLS).

Shadowrun.

:smallyuk:

Ah, I now understand. Sorry, I've been a tad dense lately.

This (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2003-09-29) is the closest thing to an explanation.

That'll work. Thanks.

Oracle_Hunter

2008-10-20, 03:39 PM

This (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2003-09-29) is the closest thing to an explanation.

*facepalm* The Party! I can't believe I forgot to check that mini-Arc. Nice sleuthing!

Mr. Scaly

2008-10-20, 03:57 PM

Of all the major characters, Luna is the most annoying to me so I'm not surprised that she'd revel in her tusk-induced misery.

Johnny Blade

2008-10-20, 03:57 PM

*facepalm* The Party! I can't believe I forgot to check that mini-Arc. Nice sleuthing!
If it makes you feel better, I forgot it too. After going through the three arcs before it. With a bittorrent client running in the background half the time.

At least I have most of the early strips on my hard drive now. :smallamused:

Just so this is rendered unimportant too: Does anyone here actually have the whole archive? If so, could you upload it at Rapidshare or Megaupload or something?

Oh, and @ HidaTsuzua, Fangly, and everyone else who wrote something regarding the planes and magic: I'm tired now, so I won't write anything about it before tomorrow, but this theory is intriguing. Good to see some new theories and researchers entering Domiology. :smallbiggrin:

Clockwork_Seal

2008-10-20, 04:13 PM

As it turns out, "success" can be defined as "near-disaster that I had to step in and desperately turn around".

No, they were successful in the thing Rilian told them to do (The 'water enchantment'), but they ALSO played a prank that upset the delicate balance and Rilian had to run damage control.

Which raises a question. Isn't 'damage control' for this plan supposed to be 'kill them if they start to destabilize?' Is Dommykins/Luna going to be saving the world on a curve?

Edit: Also, it's kind of amusing how out of place that panel 4 really is.

'Oh btw bad form. There are no consequences to this panel and the comic would lose nothing if it were taken out. Now back to the conversation that we WERE having.'

Mauve Shirt

2008-10-20, 04:59 PM

*facepalm* The Party! I can't believe I forgot to check that mini-Arc. Nice sleuthing!

Yeah, I went through the arcs before it to find it though, and they really aren't that bad, if you can put up with puns. :smallannoyed: The comic doesn't HAVE to suck!

Jahkaivah

2008-10-20, 05:06 PM

This (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2003-09-29) is the closest thing to an explanation.

Wait... so when Mookie realises a plot-hole his solution is to:

Point out the hole so those who didn't notice it acknowledge it.
Create an implausible explanation.
Create an entire new school of magic for his world in order to open the hole again making matters worse.
Fail to actually fill the hole.

Johnny Blade

2008-10-20, 07:40 PM

Apparently, I won't get any sleep tonight, so I installed the new printer/scanner/copier I bought today.
So, guess what I used as a first image to test my latest acquisition?

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii136/JohnnyBladeJN/screwedupbadly.jpg

Yeah, I screwed up quite a few things there. Badly. To my defense, I did this in about five minutes or so, and it's drawn with a ball pen. :smallcool:

Edit: And I spent a significant part of the time on "coloring" it. And it's late.

I guess I'm out of excuses now.

Yeah, I went through the arcs before it to find it though, and they really aren't that bad, if you can put up with puns. :smallannoyed:
And with two Mary-Sues in the making. Well, at least Dom & Sub didn't save the world back then, they were only brilliant and used every spell known to mankind in the most innovative way you could possibly think of if you were as awesome as them.
Oh, and the subtle elitism.
And Dominic explaining everyone what they should know better themselves. (Such as telling Gregory what exactly white magic does.)

Meh. Looks like I just can't bring myself to like any of the main characters.

At least Spark got more lines back then.

Lord Seth

2008-10-20, 08:30 PM

Wait... so when Mookie realises a plot-hole his solution is to:

Point out the hole so those who didn't notice it acknowledge it.
Create an implausible explanation.
Create an entire new school of magic for his world in order to open the hole again making matters worse.
Fail to actually fill the hole.
Voodoo Shark (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VoodooShark)?

YeahThatGuy

2008-10-21, 02:02 AM

If Pam becomes Jayden ver. 2...

Actually, with firing Garrit it sounds more like when Dominic lost his job ( meaning that everything will be fine in two comics ).

Cthclain

2008-10-21, 02:05 AM

Jayngfet

2008-10-21, 02:17 AM

Couldn't wait for him to enter the room, could you?

Fangly

2008-10-21, 02:25 AM

New Comic is up (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2008-10-21)

It's late, so perhaps I'm not thinking clearly, but it appears Pam is now acting reasonably about Gregory, since he is a Man Child (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ManChild) and leads face it a governing job is supposed to be stressful.

Though firing Dex? You better have a good justification for that, or at least A reason.

Obviously Pam is now sleeping with Dex. She had no problem letting him watch (that was her and Greg, yes? I don't trust my memory anymore). Even if that's not true, he looks suspiciously like Dominic. Who do you pick, the brother of Dominic or someone you can pretend is Dominic?

She's firing him to prevent any legal complications from being involved with her sheriff.

Or Dex is just that good. Never take your eyes off the interceptor!!

Winterwind

2008-10-21, 03:38 AM

It's definitely far from the stupidest things ever said in this comic, but I do not remember the last time the dialogue was this dumb (which probably means it must have been at least a week or two).
The first panel alone is snark-worthy (which little brother talks like that to his big brother?!), not to mention it shoots Dominic's Mary-Sueishness even more through the roof (I think Mookie must be actively trying now; maybe somebody pointed him to that list and he mistook it for a summary of his Writing Unique Characters And Villains panel?), but then we also have pearls such as the fifth panel ("I didn't break up with him because he suggested a vacation"? D'uh, really? Next thing you will be telling us you did not break up with him because he breathes air - though, in fact, the last part could at least be considered a convincing reason amongst fish, so you get the dubious honour of making even less sense than freaky fish guys!).

And it seems Pam is actively trying to get into Fourth Caste, for some reason. This might be interesting, actually, it will show us how durable the boundary between the Fourth Caste and the upper classes is. I doubt she makes it, though, the defining traits of the Fourth Caste are very contrary to those of the higher castes, to which she undoubtedly still belongs. On the other hand, if she suddenly dies to Demon Siggy or something, we will know why.

Firing Dex, eh? Bets, has he taken up drugs again or is she calling him out on how ineffective he is? If the latter, Pam, don't be stupid; that's not his fault, and you are not better than him, Second Caste simply is that worthless when First Caste is around.

Gez

2008-10-21, 03:52 AM

No, I think Pam is justified.

First, the union of Dominus & First Puppet is quite rocky. It's important to show that it's a perfect and healthy relationship, though, and the only way to achieve this -- given how abysmal it is -- is by having all other relationships fail.

So, Pamela, in breaking with Gregory, is just obeying the compulsion from the Deegandrug.

Secondly, Garritt is a jock. Sure, he was the example of the "good jock" but the Dominus is now powerful enough not to have to compromise anymore with this inferior breed of Dominion Ape. Despite his willingness to collaborate with nerds, he is a jock, and therefore an enemy and a liability which can not be allowed to stay in the Mookitopia.

lord_khaine

2008-10-21, 03:55 AM

However, dragons are Always Chaotic Evil in Tolkien's books; something which is evidently not the case in the dominion. But dragons didn't play a large role in Lord of the Rings so it's okay. Maybe they could replace the giant eagles.

actualy, in tolkiens mythologi not all dragons were evil, some of them were merely neutral, but aside from smaug they just didnt have a big role in his books.

that aside, i though todays strip was quite decent, seems there might be some action again, and with a bit of luck Greg might start to grow up.

Paragraph

2008-10-21, 04:45 AM

What, more twist. If this is actually needed later on, I might excuse the way it was presented (the "dialogue" hurts!).

But it was quite a surprise - and a bad one at that...which makes it even more surprising. Approved.

By the way, the last two comics I didn't comment on; I'm quite neutral about yesterday's and found the one two days ago hilarious, but just for that, I'm not posting :smallbiggrin:.

Simon

Winterwind

2008-10-21, 06:27 AM

First, the union of Dominus & First Puppet is quite rocky. It's important to show that it's a perfect and healthy relationship, though, and the only way to achieve this -- given how abysmal it is -- is by having all other relationships fail.Right, you remind me that I forgot to point out how horrible the dialogue in the second panel is. "Fixed so many things"? Dude, I do not remember that your idea of a healthy relationship ever changed from being "where one yells at each other", and as long as this is the case, nothing is fixed at all!

Johnny Blade

2008-10-21, 06:32 AM

Wait...did I miss something? Luna and Pam are supposed to be friends? :smallconfused:

I mean, yeah, that could have been left to our imagination (fat chances here), but why does Pam talk to Luna about that? If it had to be a First Caste member, she seemed closer to Dominic so far.

The dialogue, by the way, is killing me. I think panel 7 is my favorite, but panel 5 is up there as well. :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, I predict that this strip will be slayed at least 10 times.

Nevrmore

2008-10-21, 07:22 AM

I like how Pam seems to have only wanted comfort from Luna about breaking up with Gregory as some sort of twisted validation that she's always right and her next decisions will also be correct.

I also like how what has always been a healthy relationship (much more healthy than Dom and Sub's 'Scream Scream Fornicate' partnership) that has only shown any sort of problem once, at the end of the Snowsong arc, is suddenly being forcefed to us as stressful and strained.

I really do want to laugh about the whole thing, though. Aww, Pam is stressed out after becoming a mayor and it's starting to affect her personal life? Gee, I wonder if that's because SHE WAS AN UNQUALIFIED NURSE WHO WAS PUT INTO OFFICE BY AN UNOFFICIAL VOTE BY A BUNCH OF IDIOTS WHO HAD NOT EVEN GIVEN ANY THOUGHT TO THE MATTER RIGHT AFTER A DEVASTATING ATTACK ON THEIR TOWN. Who would have thought that things would go awry?

Wraith

2008-10-21, 08:05 AM

Anyway, I predict that this strip will be slayed at least 10 times.

Gregory: "She broke up with me..."
Dominic: "Sorry to hear it, bro. Still, now that you're single again, didn't you used to have a crush on Jayden? I'm told she isn't doing much nowadays..."
Gregory: :smallconfused:
Gregory: :smallbiggrin:
Dominic: "Well, too bad! MINDCRUSH JAYDEN!"

Winterwind

2008-10-21, 08:23 AM

Gregory: "She broke up with me..."
Dominic: "Sorry to hear it, bro. Still, now that you're single again, didn't you used to have a crush on Jayden? I'm told she isn't doing much nowadays..."
Gregory: :smallconfused:
Gregory: :smallbiggrin:
Dominic: "Well, too bad! MINDCRUSH JAYDEN!"Oh no. :smalleek:

Oh no, no, no, no, no. :smallmad:

If it turns out that the only reason why Jayden and Milov broke up was so Dominic's little brother got the girl he originally wanted... that all the derailing of their personalities, all the retcon, the whole terrible arc, served no other purpose but to pet Gregory... :smallfurious:

Johnny Blade

2008-10-21, 08:51 AM

My money's on Snowsong, actually.

Draconic

2008-10-21, 08:54 AM

First things first, the dialogue is so stilted, choppy, and by-god so bloody unnatural, it broke my brain. Additionally, it appears that Mookie has never worked in government because honestly, though time consuming, it's really not that hard if you have a bloody brain (Especially since Pam is a Mayor ie. executive branch and does not have to research legislation/bill draft, or anything like that...All she does is manage OTHER people of the town government, work with the town counsel if Barthis actually has one, and show up to meetings. Oh, so bloody difficult!).

Honestly, this strip bothers me not because Pam broke up with Gregory, but the way the dialogue is written and the way the situation seemed to carry out. It appears as if Mookie wants us to DESPISE Pam. Hell, she's even sporting the "sad Jayden eyes" in panel 5 (granted, that could also be from Mookie being a D-list artist). Most importantly, there was NO BUILD UP for this whatsoever, it came out of nowhere! Like, Mookie just decided he needed some "drama lulz", and had them randomly break up for a stupid, fabricated reason. Just because your job is tough, your taste in men as changed? Are you kidding me? Why is she even talking to Luna about this anyway? As far as I'm concerned, she and Luna are just acquaintances and Luna's closer to Gregory! Does Pam want to make the situation worse by starting a fight with Luna "blow up mermen for no reason the chosen one" Travoria? Hoesntly, fi this really happened (which it wouldn't), Luna wouldn't be NEARLY as forgiving about this.

Last rant: WHY DOES MOOKIE DO THIS TO ALL HIS FEMALE CHARACTERS? DID HE AND HIS GIRLFRIEND BREAK UP? WAS IT BECAUSE SHE HATED MAINE??.....GAAARRRGG. :smallfurious:

Winterwind

2008-10-21, 09:11 AM

Actually, yes, Mookie and his "lady friend" broke up somewhere around the Snowsong arc; while we generally try to focus on the comic and leave Mookie's private life out of our snarking, we have at times blamed quite a lot of what happened in the comic on this sad fact (also, Mookie announced there would be a break-up in the comic very shortly after his own break-up, which turned to be the one between Jayden and Milov, which incidentally also came out of nowhere).

sihnfahl

2008-10-21, 09:13 AM

Actually, Winterwind, if you look at his vacation pics, you'll see him happily embracing a lady in a bikini.

No idea who it is, but ...

Gez

2008-10-21, 09:15 AM

Oh no. :smalleek:

Oh no, no, no, no, no. :smallmad:

If it turns out that the only reason why Jayden and Milov broke up was so Dominic's little brother got the girl he originally wanted... that all the derailing of their personalities, all the retcon, the whole terrible arc, served no other purpose but to pet Gregory... :smallfurious:

But that would be such a delicious failure...

Johnny Blade

2008-10-21, 09:17 AM

WHY DOES MOOKIE DO THIS TO ALL HIS FEMALE CHARACTERS? DID HE AND HIS GIRLFRIEND BREAK UP?
Well...
Um...
Yes!

A lot of the more dubious developments and the questionable treatment of female characters started after he broke up with one.
I don't know if he has/had a new one, however.

Edit: It appears that this took me a little too long. :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, that reminds me: There's another emotionally damaged female Dominion Ape that needs a man to show her the bright side of life: Melna.

With the (hopefully) upcoming Maltak arc and Gregory maybe wanting to have some space between him and Pam, that could actually be a possibility.

(I was going to write something about Melna being significantly older than Greg because she's worked for the research lab for some time, but since Stonewater is apparently about as old as Dominic and at least not younger than Melna, that doesn't even seem to be the case.)

I'm still betting on Snowsong, though.
I mean, Orcs are great and all, but we usually love them from afar. :smallamused:

Draconic

2008-10-21, 09:28 AM

(I was going to write something about Melna being significantly older than Greg because she's worked for the research lab for some time, but since Stonewater is apparently about as old as Dominic and at least not younger than Melna, that doesn't even seem to be the case.)

I'm still betting on Snowsong, though.
I mean, Orcs are great and all, but we usually love them from afar. :smallamused:

Yeah, god forbid Mookie follow through fully with his enlightened liberalism ("Orcs are just as good as Callanians!") through Gregory because if Gregory's got to be with someone, it's gotta' be a human with a side of white. :smalltongue:

NOTE: I do believe Mookie has a new girlfriend now (the Maine pictures and the photos showing off his "cat"...flippin' pig of a man)...I'm going to back off for now because Mookie's treatment of females in gneral, irks the heck out of me. :smallsmile:

Gez

2008-10-21, 09:44 AM

Oh that would be just hilarious. "Hey, big bro, guess what? I got a new girlfriend! And she's got even bigger tusks than yours!" :smallbiggrin:

The Rose Dragon

2008-10-21, 09:47 AM

Oh that would be just hilarious. "Hey, big bro, guess what? I got a new girlfriend! And she's got even bigger tusks than yours!" :smallbiggrin:

You know what? It's too good not to happen. And in fact, that's exactly why it won't happen. Because you said it.

You ruin your own chances, dude.

Johnny Blade

2008-10-21, 09:50 AM

Oh that would be just hilarious. "Hey, big bro, guess what? I got a new girlfriend! And she's got even bigger tusks than yours!" :smallbiggrin:
:smallbiggrin:

Unfortunately, this is another reason that speaks against Melna/Gregory: Mookie probably won't allow Greg to have a girlfriend with an even more tragic past and with a remarkably bigger social stigma than Dominic's.

Edit:

NOTE: I do believe Mookie has a new girlfriend now (the Maine pictures and the photos showing off his "cat"...flippin' pig of a man)
I just saw the pictures of his new cat (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/images/scamp7.jpg) for the first time. Yeah, that's really a cute cat (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/images/scamp9.jpg). I'm glad Mookie found a new cat (http://www.dominic-deegan.com/images/scamp10.jpg).

averagejoe

2008-10-21, 10:33 AM

Stilted dialogue aside, this just fills me with the warm fuzzies. Those of you who said there was no buildup forget that she's in a relationship with Gregory Freakin' Deegan. I mean, really. One can imagine that the breakup went something like this. (http://xkcd.com/366/) When she says that her job is stressful, and that Greg's annoying, I think what she meant was, "He barged into one too many board meetings with that stupid grin on his face and a nail in his head asking if I could, 'administer some healthcare and some sweet lovin'.'"

Honestly, I'm really starting to like Pam, although she's crusin' for a trip to Atherbast (or however you spell it. Friggin made up words.) She and Celesto should team up. It would be awesome.