View Full Version : [3.5] Flick the Flaming Dagger Flinger

Keld Denar
2008-10-19, 07:50 PM
So, I'm working on a character concept, and I need to get the Dragonblooded Subtype, and I'd really like the character to be a Halfling. Unfortunately, the build is terribly feat starved, and barring the use of flaws, I'd like to nab an extra feat at first. Therefore I was wondering...could a Glimmerskin Halfling (Halfling eqiv of a Silverbrow Human, p.9 Dragon Magic) be derived from a Strongheat Halfling? The page mentions that "Otherwise, Glimmerskin Halflings are identical to the halflings in the PHB exept as noted" and the notes are basically that they get the Dragonblooded Subtype, a minor ability called Touch of Luck, and swap out the Move Silently bonus for getting Heal as a class skill. None of those mechanics seem to interfere with the changes between a standard Halfling and a Strongheat Halfling.

Anyone have a comment on this?

To come, Flick, the Flaming Dagger Flinger!

2008-10-19, 07:54 PM
I'm familiar with the race, but not the specifics. Was the +1 luck bonus to saves removed?

Even if they didn't, I'd be hard to agree to it as a DM. The whole point of Glimmerskin Halflings is that they are supernaturally lucky. Removing the Halfling's natural luck bonus just doesn't fit the concept.

Keld Denar
2008-10-19, 08:26 PM
Well, the text would specifically state that the normal +1 to all saves would be removed or replaced if it was, similar to how it explicitely states that a Glimmerskin Halfling loses its racial bonus to Move Silent. Since it doesn't, I'd say it keeps the +1 to all saves and gets the immediate action to grant a +2 to a save from Glimmerskin. That really isn't super important to the build though. The primary thing is to retain the +2 dex, the +1 size bonus to hit, and the +1 racial bonus to hit with thrown or sling type weapons, and the bonus feat. Those are the primary aspects. More info to follow on the build as it matures.

2008-10-19, 09:05 PM
what would be the family tree?

2008-10-19, 09:15 PM
I'd say it's fine.

Strongheart Halfling basically just gives up the +1 to saves for a bonus feat, right? (I don't have my FRCS on me...)

Since the Glimmerskin Halfling doesn't change or remove the save bonuses (I've got Dragon Magic open in front of me), there's no reason for you not to be able to use both. I'd probably allow it.

Even if they didn't, I'd be hard to agree to it as a DM. The whole point of Glimmerskin Halflings is that they are supernaturally lucky. Removing the Halfling's natural luck bonus just doesn't fit the concept.

I don't believe the Halfling's +1 to saves is a Luck bonus; according to the SRD, it's just a racial bonus. Either way, the +2 bonus for being a Glimmerskin IS a luck bonus, and you wouldn't be getting rid of that.

2008-10-19, 10:10 PM
Hmm? I could have sworn that it was flavot-texted as them being usually lucky.

Reguardless, I don't see any mechanical problem with a Strongheart Glimmerskin. I just thought is was odd in giving up what I'd assumed to be a luck bonus with a race known for being lucky. :smallamused: The Stonehunter Gnome is one of my favorite variants, so I'm not going to develop a bias against small, dragonblooded humanoids.

Well, except for Tucker's Kobolds, who everyone is mentioning today.

Lord Tataraus
2008-10-19, 10:24 PM
Technically it should be ok, but Strongheart Halflings are usually considered either very high-end in the power structure or broken and adding in Dragonblood I'd say puts it over the top so I wouldn't count on most DMs to approve it, I know I wouldn't.

2008-10-20, 09:33 AM
If your DM doesn't allow that, there's a feat which gives you the dragonblood subtype, +1s to several things, and the ability to pick Draconic Heritage feats as if you were a sorc of your character level.

Dragontouched from Dragon Magic, page 18, requires Cha 11.

2008-10-20, 09:38 AM
Where's Strongheart Halfling from anyway? I've heard about it a lot, but never seen.

2008-10-20, 09:45 AM
I'd say it's fine.

Strongheart Halfling basically just gives up the +1 to saves for a bonus feat, right? (I don't have my FRCS on me...)

This quote suggests they are from the forgotten realms campaign setting.

Keld Denar
2008-10-20, 11:08 AM
So, this is what I have so far...

Flick, the Flaming Knife Flinger
Glimmerskin Strongheart Halfling Bardblade
Bard3/Warblade5/Master Thrower5/Warblade7
28 PB Str 12(10) Dex 16(18) Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 12
Putting level up points into Dex to increase +hit

Level/Feat Build

1 Bard1 [Dragonfire Inspiration] [Point Blank Shot] [Rapid Shot(flaw)] [Precise Shot (Flaw)]
2 Bard2
3 Bard3 [Song of the Heart]
4 Warblade1
5 Warblade2
6 Warblade3 [Song of the White Raven]
7 Warblade4
8 Warblade5 [Quick Draw]
9 Master Thrower1 [Two Weapon Fighting]
10 Master Thrower2
11 Master Thrower3
12 Master Thrower4 [Improved TWF]
13 Master Thrower5
14 Warblade6
15 Warblade7 [Greater TWF]
16 Warblade8
17 Warblade9 [Improved Initiative]
18 Warblade10 [Feat?]
19 Warblade11
20 Warblade12

Maneuver/Spell Progression

1|Bard2|[Inspirational Boost]|||
2|Warblade1|[Moment of Perfect Mind] [Wolf Fang Strike] [Sudden Leap]|| {Leading the Charge}
3|Warblade2|[Action Before Thought]||
4|Warblade3|[Tactical Strike]||
5|Warblade4|[Mind over Body]|(Wolf Fang Strike)|{Leaping Dragon Stance}
6|Warblade5|[White Raven Tactics]||
7|Master Thrower1|||
8|Master Thrower2|||
8|Master Thrower3|||
9|Master Thrower4|||
9|Master Thrower5|||
10|Warblade6|[Dancing Mongoose]|(Action Before Thought)||
11|Warblade7|[Moment of Alacrity]||
12|Warblade8|[Order Forged from Chaos]|(Tactical Strike)|
13|Warblade9|[Clarion Call]||
14|Warblade10|[Quicksilver Motion]|(Mind over Body)|{Press the Advantage}
15|Warblade11|[Raging Mongoose]||
16|Warblade12|[Diamond Defense]|(Moment of Perfect Mind)|

Picking maneuvers was tough, since most of them require melee strikes. I REALLY wanted to draw heavily from Desert Wind, but all the boosts there specify melee only, whereas Tiger Claw boosts such as the Xing Mongooses don't. I really tried to avoid taking Strikes if possible, except to meet prereqs, since I'd rather use my high rate of fire on a full attack if possible.

Granted, would have a lot of weakness against foes with DR and fire immunity, but would be fun to play in a campaign mostly against humanoid foes. The high rate of attack between Rapid Shot, TWF, and Palm Throw would stack on the d6s pretty fast. At level 20, you'd have an Dragonfire Inspiration of:
+5 (level incuding Vest of Legends)
+1 Song of the Heart
+1 Inspirational Boost
+1 Badge of Valor
= +8d6 fire damage per hit

19/20 BAB results in 4 attacks +1 for Rapid Shot, +3 for TWF, +2 for Raging Mongoose, +1 Haste for 11 attacks, which Palm throw makes 22. 22 attacks for +8d6 each would net ~176d6 fire damage per round on a full attack every other round, with 144d6 every round in between (to regain Raging Mongoose). Maneuverability would be increase with Sudden Leap and Leaping Dragon Stance, replaced later with Press the Advantage and/or Quicksilver Motion at later levels. Unfortunately, I couldn't quite get the IL up high enough to get Time Stands Still, which would ABSOLUTELY destroy just about anything.

All in all, the build is pretty viable off the bat. Early on, you'll have a really low rate of fire, but you'll be a pretty good buffer with +1d6 fire at 1st level, +2d6 fire at 2nd, and +3d6 fire at 3rd. Low number of Bard songs per day could be an issue, but for continuous fighting, you could just maintain the same song over multiple encounters as long as you don't have to cast spells or chit chat. The build really comes into its own around level 8, when you have the Quickdraw to make multiple dagger tosses in a round. By then, your Inspire Courage is up to +5d6 (with Badge) and you are making 3 attacks/round or 4 with Haste. That's potentially 15-20d6 fire if all attacks hit. Level 9 is a huge step to, bringing number of attacks up to 4/round or 5 with Haste, and level 13 brings Palm Throw into the equasion, and from there its just silly.

Most cash can be spent on improving defenses once requisite bardic gear is purchased, since magical weaponry wouldn't be that advantageous. Something that grants flight would be idea to increase mobility and defenses. At higher levels, a casting of 2-3 Chained GMWs would give you enough magic daggers to last an encounter before you could reclaim them.

Any thoughts?

2008-10-20, 12:20 PM
Any thoughts?

I'm surprised no one has posted this obligatory link (forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=816095).

You're very close to the traditional Song of the White Raven build. If you want the optimal path, I suggest you stick with Bard 3/Warblade 17 or Bard 3/Crusader 17, and drop the Master Thrower levels entirely. Use the leftover feats that you were wasting on entry into Master Thrower on gems like Words of Creation, Snowflake Wardance, Item Familiar, or Doomspeak.

Also keep in mind that you never want to optimize a single melee beyond the point of absurdity. If you have a combo that can deal 1,000 damage, your DM will soon introduce 10 times as many enemies, or a single enemy with 10,000 hit points. Instead, optimize it so that its solid, and then move on to another combo.

Keld Denar
2008-10-20, 12:40 PM
Yea, its probably taken to a bit of an absurd level. I know about standard Bardblade builds, and am a big fan of almost all of JanusJones' work (especially the DFA Handbook!).

That said, I don't like Words of Creation. I think its a poorly thought out and designed feat, and the Exalted requirement and 13 wisdom are hard on playstyle and point buy requirements respectively. Plus, almost everyone I know (myself included) are of the opinion that WoC only multiplies the base IC bonus, rather than the whole. That means that its a bonus of +1 to +5 over 20 levels, rather than a doubling of everything (including InspBoost and SotH and Badge of Valor). Its just too high of a price to pay for me.

Also, I wanted this to be a ranged build, rather than a melee build. If you read even most of it, you'd realize that all things factored in, the difference between meleeing and throwing on this character is a +5 AB difference at 1st level, and that gap widens as he levels He also can't Rapid Shot or Palm Throw in melee, which lowers his rate of attack by a ton. This guy tries hardest to stay OUT of melee, with Sudden Leap and other maneuvers designed to get away so that he can do a full attack throw without sucking up a dozen AoOs per round. That really takes out SFWD, beyond the fact that daggers are piercing weapons and the fact that its very questionable whether or not you can duelwield during a SFWD.

I dunno, I guess I was trying to break out of the cookie cutter Bardblade build and do something a little more unique. I haven't ever seen a build like this, and its been something I've been toying around with since I suggested it to someone on this forum almost a year ago.

Keld Denar
2008-10-20, 08:03 PM
le Bump!

Anyone else care to comment on the build? Solid? Weak? Anything not jive with the rules? I desire feedback!

2008-10-20, 08:31 PM
I'm surprised that Bloodstorm Blade didn't find it's way into a ToB thrower build. While I personally don't really use ToB, I thought it was a cornerstone of the hurling ricocheting returning greatsword system. Heck, the way it's worded, you can use Snowflake Wardance on your throwing weapons with that PrC, as well as strikes and such. Might be worth a shot.

Keld Denar
2008-10-20, 09:58 PM
I thought about it, but decided against for one major reason. Bloodstorm Blade doesn't add to IL. I'd be stuck with like, 4th level maneuvers tops. Plus, I don't have any Iron Heart maneuvers. I think Master Thrower gives more to the build with Palm Throw than BSB does with its throwing ability. Especially since this is a dex based throw build.

Anyone have an opinion?

2008-10-21, 09:02 AM
There must be a Flying Fickle Finger of Fate mixed into this character somehow.

Mechanics? No comment.

Keld Denar
2008-10-23, 05:25 PM
Anyone else have a comment? Would anyone play this build? Is it unbalanced?

Thanks in advance.