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Jack Zander
2008-10-19, 10:16 PM
My DM is starting up a gestalt campaign. I chose to play as the party's glass cannon by being a rogue/sorcerer who sneak attacks with rays. Eventually I'll go into the arcane trickster PrC with fighter on the side.

Anyway, I need 1 good ray on each spell level as well as multiple good spells I can use to enhance my rays, or simply make me more versatile. We are currently level one, and here's my current spell list:

Cantrips
Mage Hand (required for Arcane Trickster)
Detect Magic
Read Magic
Acid Splash

1st-Level
Grease
Ray of Enfeeblement

I would prefer the spell lists were core, but some of my friends have access to PHB2 and Eberron, so I could use spells in there if they are particularly good.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that you can sneak attack with any ray, even those that do not deal damage, but if they don't normally deal damage, your sneak attack damage is negative energy damage instead.

Keld Denar
2008-10-19, 10:27 PM
No, sadly, you can't SA with Ray of Enfeeble, because it doesn't do damage. Read up in CArcane about Weaponlike Spells. That spells it out really clearly. It has to do hp damage, ability damage, or give negative levels in order to apply SA. RoE just gives a stat penalty, and Ray of Exhaustion just imposes a status penalty, so you can't SA with either.

Instead of Arcane Trickster, look into Unseen Seer from CM. Its like AT, but actually has class features. The ability to add those diviniations to your spell list is killer too, especially if you pick up stuff like Hunter's Eye (Ranger2 SpComp) and/or Divine Insight (Cl2, CDivine). DI will give you a bonus to any skill check you make within CL hours of casting, with a bonus up to you CL (max 15). This nets you some killer Disable Device checks or the most silver tongued Bluff you've ever made in your life. Hunters Eye give you bonus SA dice at 1d6/3CL, which is decent to cast right before a Ray.

Finally, to add a bit of free debuff to your foes, look at Staggering Strike, Complete Adventurer, I think. Basically, when you hit with a SA, you force your foe to make a DC=damage fort save or be staggered for a round. If you blast that foe every round, they won't get a full round action for the rest of the combat, which can save your tank TONS of hp in the long run, and save your party resources patching him up at the end of every encounter.

For 2nd level spells, I know you have a TON to pick from, especially with Hunter's Eye and Divine Insight tossed in, but Whirling Blade can be a really decent spell for delivering SA. Sure, the base damage on it is gonna be less than Scorching Ray, but if you can line up multiple flat footed foes, you're net total dice will be greater, since SR can only SA one target (volley spell) but WB can SA all of them (counts as a melee attack). Plus, since you are a CHA focused caster, you could invest in a +1 Sudden Stunning weapon (DMGII) for a scant 4300 and change, with a CHA based REFLEX save vs stun for 1d6+1 round CHA times per day, deliverable at range via WB. A stunned foe can be SAed at will without a qualifier, so that would be a great opener before you get stuff like Greater Invis that allow you to SA all the time.

Jack Zander
2008-10-19, 10:32 PM
Curses! I love Ray of Enfeeblement so I'll probably keep it, but are there any other first levels rays I could sneak attack with? I suppose I could shocking grasp for lots of damage or chill touch, but I don't really want to be in melee if I can avoid it (it's a 15% chance difference between my melee and ranged touches, and I'm not getting weapon finesse anytime soon).

The Deej
2008-10-19, 10:37 PM
That's not exactly correct. You can sneak attack with any weaponlike spell, which is a spell that requires an attack roll and deals hit point damage, nonlethal damage, ability damage, or energy drain (see Complete Arcane pp. 85-86). It's the case of energy drain or ability damage where the sneak attack damage is negative energy.

As for some good rays:

1) Lesser orb spells - no save, no SR
2) seeking ray - synergizes with other rays
2) Ray of stupidity - shut that wizard down fast
3) Icelance - Packs a nice punch
4) Orb spells - No SR, save is only against secondary effect
5) Prismatic Ray - On a damage effect, you sneak. Otherwise, you just screw them over.

I'm sure there's more, but that should be a good start.

Edit: Ninja'd.

And Spellwarp Sniper (Complete Scoundrel) is a way better prestige class, since it's designed EXACTLY for this kind of build.

Keld Denar
2008-10-19, 10:40 PM
Curses! I love Ray of Enfeeblement so I'll probably keep it, but are there any other first levels rays I could sneak attack with?

Any of the 1st level Orb spells. While not rays, they are ranged touch attacks that do damage, and thus weaponlike spells.

EDIT: And Deej, Ray of Stupidity is a 2nd level spell...and possibly the most horribly balanced spell in the game right behind Shivering Touch. Alone its not so bad (except for the ability to 1shot any animal), but blend in a little bit of metamagic and you can take down your average non-int based NPC and just about every monster thats not a dragon or aberation.

/shudder

EDIT2: Spellwarped Sniper would be ok, but there are only about 3 spells in the game that really break SWS. Those are Wings of Flurry, Thunderclap (and friends) and Breath of Frost, simply because they give you no-save disables way early. About the time you get really good at warping spells though, you get access to stuff like Stun Ray (Wiz6, SpComp) that does the same thing anyway.

Jack Zander
2008-10-19, 10:45 PM
Which book are these orbs in?

The Deej
2008-10-19, 10:46 PM
I listed it as second. I have two 2nd levels on there.

Keld Denar
2008-10-19, 10:46 PM
Which book are these orbs in?

1st printed in Complete Arcane, reprinted in Spell Compendium.

The Deej
2008-10-19, 11:08 PM
Spellwarped Sniper would be ok, but there are only about 3 spells in the game that really break SWS. Those are Wings of Flurry, Thunderclap (and friends) and Breath of Frost, simply because they give you no-save disables way early. About the time you get really good at warping spells though, you get access to stuff like Stun Ray (Wiz6, SpComp) that does the same thing anyway.

There's plenty of ways to get sneak if you're just creative enough, not just disabling spells. Heck, improved feint wouldn't be that bad. He's charisma based AND a rogue, so it's almost expected for him to have maxed bluff. Plus, how many things have you seen with sense motive?

Also, Spellwarp sniper has a faster sneak attack progression than unseen seer, increases the range for sneak attacks, and expands your options for sneak attackable spells. Not to mention the fact that unseen seer will decrease the DC's of all his non-divination spells. That's why I was saying that it was better.

And by the way, stun ray is sor/wiz 7, not 6.

Keld Denar
2008-10-19, 11:41 PM
Yea, sure, you can then SA with a fireball, but why would you, when you already have a couple rays on your list to SA with? Damage is damage, and spells known are precious. I think the other things you gain from USS are better than the stuff you get from SWS, but then again, that's probably my personal opinion.

And Improved Feint....is bad. Have you even read it? You have to be in melee, which is generally a BAD PLACE TO BE. LOL. I wouldn't go with that, not at all.

And my bad about Stun Ray...Still, its a good spell for a character like this.

Jack Zander
2008-10-19, 11:45 PM
I definitely do not have two feats to blow to get combat expertise and improved feint just so I can be in melee. However, would it be a good idea to grab weapon finesse so I can rush into flanking position if need be and sneak attack with a shocking grasp (or touch spell of choice)? My other idea was to take point blank shot and precise shot when I can. I grabbed improved initiative at 1st level. I figured that would always be useful.

Keld Denar
2008-10-19, 11:57 PM
I'd stay away from all of that, except Improved Initiative. If I was you, I'd probably look into something like this:

1 Improved Initiative
3 Staggering Strike
6 Split Ray
9 Quicken Spell

And then work from there. Quicken Spell only if you take one of the Sorc variants (PHBII or UA) that gives up your familiar to allow you to apply metamagic to your spells without increasing the casting time.

Most of the time you won't have problems hitting, since you are making ranged touch attacks, and touch ACs tend to be 3-8 points lower for MOST foes. PB/PS would be useful initially, but you'd quickly grow out of them, especially with a rogue's BAB. Weapon Finesse will likewise be a feat you'll quickly grow out of, since you'll easily be able to make touch attacks, which you SHOULDN'T be making most of the time anyway. Depending on your STR, its only a bonus of about 3-4 unless you stats are VERY heavily lopsided.

Split Ray is decent, since it duplicates may of the rays you'll be casting, but doesn't qualify them as a Volley style attack, thus allowing you to SA with both rays. Thats strong indeed. And in all reality, you don't NEED a ray for every spell level. As a sorc, you can always spend higher level slots to cast lower level spells, at no penalty, so you can get away with about 1 every other level. Make sure you spread out your damage flavors though, in case you meet something immune or vulnerable. Since the SA damage counts as the element that the spell is flavored after, it gets amplified by 1.5 when you hit a foe who's vulnerable to that element, which can produce some really silly numbers. Lots of things are fire subtype, so make sure you keep a cold based ray around at all times! Orb of Cold or Ray of Frost are decent ones. Ice Lance is kind of crap, since its not a ranged touch, but a regular ranged attack.

Jack Zander
2008-10-20, 12:06 AM
Which books are Staggering Strike and Split Ray in?

Keld Denar
2008-10-20, 12:09 AM
As I mentioned before, I believe Staggering Strike is in Complate Adventurer. Its decent if you can get the DC high enough, and stacking spell damage AND SA will generally get you unsaveable saves.

Split Ray is in Complete Arcane.

Jack Zander
2008-10-20, 12:13 AM
Thanks a bunch everyone for your ideas. I think I'll stick with the Arcane Trickster PrC unless I can get a hold of SWS.

Keld Denar
2008-10-20, 12:53 AM
AT isn't bad, it just lacks class features. The stuff it does give you is either crap (Ranged Ledgerdemain or however you spell it) and Impromptu Sneak Attack (By the time you get it, you should be Greater Invis at all times). USS gives you a lot more neato abilities, including access to spells that aren't normally on your list.

USS is in Complete Mage
SWS is in Complete Scoundrel

Kurald Galain
2008-10-20, 04:56 AM
Instead of making a big hassle out of taking Spellwarp Sniper in order to turn your spells into rays, it's much easier to simply learn ray spells. Seriously, barring the aforementioned cheese combo, SS isn't worth it.

A good combo build is something like Rogue 1 / Sorcerer 4 / Unseen Seer 1 / Arcane Trickster X. US makes it easier to qualify for AT. It depends on whether you want the extra class abilities from US (in particular, the free divination spell: Hunter's Eye is good) or the greater sneak attack damage from AT.

Also, for a bit of fun, you can replace Rogue 1 with Spellthief 1 (and the Master Spellthief feat). This trades the rogue class features which you probably won't be using anyway (except sneak attack, of course) for the ability to cast in armor, as well as spellthievery. In this build, it's a side dish; it's okay if it doesn't come up all that often.

Kurald Galain
2008-10-20, 05:03 AM
As stated above, improved feint is not such a great choice since, as a ray specialist, you don't want to be in melee. The normal 30-foot range for sneak attacks is plenty, you don't need SWS to increase that.

If you have multiple US levels and the loss of casting level bothers you, you can take Practiced Spellcaster and it's gone.

A great spell for this build is PHB2's Cloud of Knives - gives you a free additional attack each round.

Chineselegolas
2008-10-20, 05:16 AM
One thing, this is gestalt right, so dual progression PrC's are meant to be frowned upon and don't things like Arcane Trickster fall into that category?
Could be completely wrong but...

Kurald Galain
2008-10-20, 05:58 AM
One thing, this is gestalt right, so dual progression PrC's are meant to be frowned upon and don't things like Arcane Trickster fall into that category?
Could be completely wrong but...

Hm, good point.

In that case, I would suggest pure sorcerer (plus the common prestige classes) on one side, and Rogue 1 / Spellthief 1 / SA Fighter 1 / Psychic Rogue 1 / Lurk 1 on the other. Top off with more levels of SA fighter because it has the best BAB.

Jack Zander
2008-10-20, 11:56 AM
My DM actually suggested AT for me, though I told him it's probably not a good idea for gestalt. I'm still waiting for his confirmation on that.

Keld Denar
2008-10-20, 12:26 PM
My DM actually suggested AT for me, though I told him it's probably not a good idea for gestalt. I'm still waiting for his confirmation on that.

If he'd give it to you, take it and run. AT is not a bad class, its just plain. It suffers from being written at the start of the rules block, and thus has a distinct lack of meaningful class features other than SA and casting. Eldrich Knight and Mystic Theurge have the same problem, which was corrected in later books with classes like Abjurant Champion and Arcane Heirophant. The classes are just BORING. USS gets you new spells you wouldn't normally get, which can add a depth to your character you wouldn't otherwise see. USS also has more skill points. :) If you take levels of sorcerer on the USS casting dead levels, you negate the largest disadvantage of the class, and can keep full 20/20 casting all the way home.