PDA

View Full Version : [Archer 3.5] Fighter-based



Gracchus
2008-10-20, 12:01 PM
Hi everybody!
I'm willing to play an archer, as a consequence I tried to make a build... (Yet I've not started playing with this character).
I'd like to have your opinion... So here's the build (for the record I'm a whisper gnome with 19 dex at level 1 and I only take fighter levels)

Feats:
1: point blank shot, precise shot
2: weapon focus (longbow)
3: rapid shot
4: weapon specialization (longbow)
6: manyshot, efficient pull
8: ranged weapon
9: improved rapid shot
10: greater weapon focus (longbow)
12: greater weapon specialization (longbow), ***

With this build I have a quite high BAB (+22 or so at lvl 12) and with a 3str Greatbow I do something like 5d8+44

So what do you think?

Temp.
2008-10-20, 12:24 PM
First, your BAB is only 12; it's the number on the Fighter advancement chart. Very few things can change it from the value on the chart (Divine Power and Tenser's Transformation being the only ones that come to mind). As you probably know, BAB determines the number of attacks you get in a round; attack bonus (the number you add to your to-hit rolls) does not.

So...


What you need to remember is that each Fighter bonus feat is costing you two class levels. You should ask yourself "Am I getting anything here that makes my character a better archer than two levels of Rogue would?" In most cases (the Weapon Focus line, Efficient Pull, Improved Rapid Shot) the answer is going to be "no."

The one thing Fighter does do well as far as Archery is concerned is use the CW ranged combat maneuver feats. Few other classes have the feat slots available to really become useful with those. You should check out the Woodland Archer Tactical feat in Races of the Wild; I remember that being pretty useful.

But really, with an Archer build you should be looking for sources of growing bonus damage (Sneak Attack and Skirmish being the big ones; Skirmish is the easiest to develop, but Sneak Attack will get you better damage output if you can get your hands on a Blink or Greater Invisibility effect.

Eldariel
2008-10-20, 12:41 PM
I'd rather use a Thug (Fighter-variant here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug)), pick up Knowledge Devotion [Complete Champion], Education [Forgotten Realms Campaign Settings/Eberron Campaign Settings/Ghostwalk/Player's Guide to Faerun] and max out Knowledges for Massive Damage. Alternatively, a dip in Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#cleric), while costing a point of Base Attack Bonus, would get you free Knowledge Devotion, two other feats (a Domain is generally worth about a feat) and some level 1 spells along with Turn Undead (if you happen to e.g. have good Charisma for Divine Might [Complete Warrior]).

You've got enough feats - Thug + Knowledge Devotion gives you better returns than the three feats. Oh yeah, and get a superenhanced bow. And multiclassing makes you better. I'd take at least two levels in Ranger - having some Spot and Hide is very handy for an archer. Getting the Rapid Shot means you aren't losing out in feats, but getting a ton of everything (the only real loss is that you'll only get Weapon Supremacy on 20 - that said, the feat isn't amazing so the loss could be bigger).

Draz74
2008-10-20, 03:22 PM
OK guys, instead of ignoring the OP's "Fighter Only" preference, use this as a thought experiment, to see how not-terrible we can make a pure Fighter archer.

Doesn't change the fact that the OP's only really good feat is Rapid Shot. Owch.

OK, let's see. Whisper Gnome Fighter. Even cross-class, some Hide and Move Silently ranks will probably be worthwhile.

Which of his feats, though bad, are worth keeping as prerequisites or whatever? Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot certainly are. Manyshot is OK, probably worth keeping when you have a Fighter's quantity of feats. Are the Weapon Focus/Specialization feats worth it if they're leading up to Ranged Weapon Mastery (which is pretty darn good) and Weapon Supremacy?

What good Archery feats can we recommend, besides Woodland Archer? (Which is, for the record, awesome for a stealthy character with Manyshot.)

If you have access to Magic Item Compendium, I actually recommend getting the True Believer (Ehlonna) feat. And some Raptor Arrows. Re-usable everything-Bane arrows are hard to beat. Also, the Bow of the Wintermoon is nice for any archer of the right alignment, even without its relic power, just so you can always get maximum benefit of your Strength out of your bow.

It's not exclusive to Fighters at all, but the Archery Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.0) might have some worthwhile hints about feats and items in it.

The Education (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Education,FRCS)/Knowledge Devotion (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Knowledge_Devotion,CC) feat combo could be really interesting, though Fighters just don't get very many skill points.

Eldariel
2008-10-20, 03:49 PM
The Education (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Education,FRCS)/Knowledge Devotion (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Knowledge_Devotion,CC) feat combo could be really interesting, though Fighters just don't get very many skill points.

That's where Thug comes in. It's a Fighter (in other words, he's not straying away from the Fighter) with one less feat, but 4 skills per level. With some Int (14 allows maxing all the creature identification skills), that suddenly becomes awesome. Of course, that also eats up all the skillpoints, but then you're a veritable information bank too so it's not like they're wasted or anything.

Weapon Focus & Specialization are worth it with Ranged Weapon Mastery in the game. Beyond that, it becomes more questionable - Weapon Supremacy is decent, but only level 18. Still, if going straight Fighter, there's little better to do with the later feats (after picking up Improved Rapid Shot, Improved Precise Shot, etc.).


One of the better attempts I've seen at maximizing Fighter Archer efficiency is in this thread:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1043589

On level 12, he's dealing 2d6+18 damage with 4 attacks per round - not amazing, but not horrible either. Oh yeah, and the To Hit-chances are through the roof - +31/+31/+26/+21. Getting a bow with Power Shot-like ability, such as Energy Bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) (or just homebrewing the feat) would be a priority.


And yes, as a Whisper Gnome, I'd focus on stealth. That's another reason I'm suggesting those Ranger-levels, they'd give you Hide and Move Silently in class.

RagnaroksChosen
2008-10-20, 04:08 PM
The bad thing with thug though is you loose BAB which i alwasy thought was essential? I meen the skills are nice with Knowledge Devotion and education can be realy nice... But Doesn't the lack of BAB hurt?

Person_Man
2008-10-20, 04:33 PM
Drop the weapon focus and weapon specialization feats, efficient pull, and improved rapid shot. In general, you should always avoid feats that provide minor static bonuses. Look for feats that provide scaled bonuses, extra attacks, multiplied damage, or abilities that you can't cheaply buy with magic items.

Suggestions:

Ancestral Weapon (Book of Exalted Deeds): Saves you money. Money you can spend on a better bow and arrows.

Mercantile Background (Player's Guide to Faerun): Saves you more money. Seriously, gp is the most important thing for any archer build.

Item Familiar (Unearthed Arcana): Improves your weapon further, and grants it a variety of powers.

Ranged Pin (Complete Warrior): This is only useful if you fight enemies that wear cloths/armor, and you fight them in dungeons. You pin them, and it takes a Standard Action for them to free themselves. So essentially you can easily lock down 1 enemy per attack every round. Very useful, IF you fight in those conditions a lot. Otherwise, skip it.


If you can take the Zhentarim Soldier (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) add on, you get the ability to Demoralize (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-911167) as a Swift action, which is pretty huge. Combine with:

Frightful Presence (Draconomicon) or Dreadful Wrath (Player's Guide to Faerun): Either will give you a dragon's frightful presence. Ridiculously useful at lower levels, though not so much at high levels when tons of enemies are immune.

Imperious Command (Drow of the Underdark): When you Demoralize an enemy, they Cower for 1 round.


The Resolute substitution level (Complete Champion) is also a definite must if your DM allows it, as it allows you to pump your Will Save.


If your DM allows you to use the Complete Warrior Knockback weapon enhancement (which was nerfed in the Item Compendium update), he may also allow you to combine it with the Dungeoncrasher variant from Dungeonscape, which adds massive damage when you Bull Rush and enemy into a wall or object. By RAW it doesn't work, because your weapon is making the opposed roll, not you. But since you're playing a weak Fighter, your DM might hand wave it in.

Iku Rex
2008-10-20, 04:42 PM
So what do you think?Simple and effective. Should work just fine.

Eldariel
2008-10-20, 05:04 PM
The bad thing with thug though is you loose BAB which i alwasy thought was essential? I meen the skills are nice with Knowledge Devotion and education can be realy nice... But Doesn't the lack of BAB hurt?

Thug doesn't lose BAB - if it did, it wouldn't be worth it (except Knowledge Devotion all but makes up for the lost points). Second, the lack of BAB only hurts in lost attacks. That said, early on it's pretty huge - you want those extra attacks ASAP.


Person_Man's advice is solid, although I strongly suggest against dropping Weapon Spec-line - Ranged Weapon Mastery gives enough bang for the buck to make Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialisation worthwhile. Item Familiar and Ancestral Weapon are both worthy options. Frightful Presence less so since it only influences opponents with HD lower than you (rarely worthwhile challenges in the first place). Mercantile Background is awesome, although it tends to be enough to have one member with it. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that every party should have one Mercantile Background-character - it increases the net wealth of the party by tons. The same kind of utility as a party Artificer. Which of course brings up the obligatory Leadership option. But since it wants Cha and is a real pain to introduce to a game, maybe not.

Ricky S
2008-10-20, 05:11 PM
Wouldnt it be better to go human? Then you can get some extra feats which can be useful and you would also be able to use the Great Bow 1d10 instead of a longbow which your gnome is technically using. I have also found that plunging shot is pretty helpful at lower levels and Rapid shot as well despite some of you guys thinking it is a waste of time. Seriously 2 d10 + 2 d6 + 6 (+3 great bow) per round is really good. I played in a campaign with a human ranged fighter and he did the most damage out of the entire group!

KillianHawkeye
2008-10-20, 07:15 PM
Don't forget Coordinated Shot (from Heroes of Battle) so your allies can engage in melee without giving the enemy soft cover.