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Starbuck_II
2008-10-20, 12:56 PM
So I was reading Paizo's boards and the Paladin is being redone, but this error crossed my mind:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/design/clericDruidPaladin/designFocusPaladinUpgrade1jb9d


Holy Champion (Su): At 20th level, a paladin becomes a conduit for the power of her god. Her DR increases to 10/evil. Whenever she uses smite evil and successfully strikes an evil outsider, the outsider is also subject to a banishment, using her paladin level as the caster level (her weapon and holy symbol automatically count as objects that the subject hates). In addition, whenever she channels positive energy or uses lay on hands to heal a creature, she heals the maximum possible amount.

Now the secondary function (banishment) is awesome. Very paladin-like, but DR/evil?
What so Paladins are better versus non evil!

That doesn't compute.
Although, I'm not sure what DR to put: DR/Good?
That seems best as Paladins don't fight good often and evil creatures don't weild holy weapons.

thegurullamen
2008-10-20, 01:04 PM
No, it's a flavor thing. Paladins are great against everyone, it's just that evil mofos are the only things that can hurt them. A paladin facing down a neutral thief for example would beat the ever loving crap out of him, but against a devil, well, that's a big epic brawl right there.

To put it another way, why would he have DR/good? Why would a good item hurt more against an exemplar of goodness? Conversely, why would an unholy item hurt a devil more? It wouldn't. Only polar opposites can hurt each other in the D&D world which is why good characters beat evil characters so hard. Why wouldn't the inverse be true as well? It's a pretty weird world where the bad guys are hurt by the good guys being so good and the good guys are hurts by...the good guys being so good?

Artanis
2008-10-20, 01:23 PM
That's pretty much the way I see it as well.

Kurald Galain
2008-10-20, 01:26 PM
What so Paladins are better versus non evil!

That doesn't compute.

Indeed, it does not. My first guess is that they've redefined "DR x/y" to mean "resist X against Y" (as it does in 4E) instead of "resist X against anything except for Y" (as it does in 3E).

LibraryOgre
2008-10-20, 01:36 PM
Paladins are so good that they can only be hurt by concentrated evil. Everything else refuses to hurt them, because they're that good.

Of course, you can probably hurt them with mistletoe...

bosssmiley
2008-10-20, 01:40 PM
Looks like Jason's finally grokked the meaning of the phrase 'level appropriate'.

DR10/evil at 20th level is still meaningless though.

"Good designer, have a cookie." :smallamused:

Artanis
2008-10-20, 01:46 PM
Indeed, it does not. My first guess is that they've redefined "DR x/y" to mean "resist X against Y" (as it does in 4E) instead of "resist X against anything except for Y" (as it does in 3E).
Think of it like this:

If evil had DR/Evil, why would people bother spending the time and effort to make sanctified weapons to use against evil stuff? So it makes sense that evil things have DR/Good. If evil things have DR/Good, then wouldn't it make sense that good things have DR/Evil?

LibraryOgre
2008-10-20, 01:48 PM
Looks like Jason's finally grokked the meaning of the phrase 'level appropriate'.

DR10/evil at 20th level is still meaningless though.

"Good designer, have a cookie." :smallamused:

Not meaningless... just not a huge perk in and of itself. It's pretty meaningless if all you're fighting is things with inherent alignments, yeah, but it's not against humans, tarrasques, and other such things.

Roderick_BR
2008-10-20, 02:19 PM
I see it like "strong against mundane attacks, but evil is so powerful that only it can penetrate it's defenses."
And yes, DR 10/evil is way, WAAAAY more useful than DR 10/magic :smallbiggrin:
Hmm.. I'll have to check out this paladin. This holy champion thing looks like what I saw in some homebrews, and I like it.

Oslecamo
2008-10-20, 02:58 PM
It's to stop you from being killed by the misguided angry mob of inocent commoners manipulated BBEG.

It's also great for those girlfriends who like it more rough than normal. Beware of Succubus still.

Starbuck_II
2008-10-20, 03:14 PM
It's to stop you from being killed by the misguided angry mob of inocent commoners manipulated BBEG.

It's also great for those girlfriends who like it more rough than normal. Beware of Succubus still.

So DR/foreplay? Wait, do succubuses even attempt that?

Quirinus_Obsidian
2008-10-20, 03:26 PM
DR 10/Evil is nothing to sneeze at. It literally saved my arse in a recent game. well it was 10/Cold Iron, but still. At Epic levels, it is a little weak in some peoples books, but this is the same time that the <blanking> Wizard can cast Time Stop. talk about brok~en...:smallmad:

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-20, 03:30 PM
I view it as Evil weapons are specifically designed to penetrate the defenses of good Celestials and Paladins. The Paladin has a holy shield protecting her from injury, but Evil weapons eat through it because they're made to do so.

Saph
2008-10-20, 04:24 PM
As said, DR 10 is nothing to sneeze at. I've found stoneskin effects to be very handy in 10th-15th level combats. 10 points off each hit really adds up when you're facing enemies that attack 5 to 8 times per round.

That said, waiting all the way until 20th-level to get it seems a bit slow.

- Saph

LibraryOgre
2008-10-20, 04:29 PM
As said, DR 10 is nothing to sneeze at. I've found stoneskin effects to be very handy in 10th-15th level combats. 10 points off each hit really adds up when you're facing enemies that attack 5 to 8 times per round.

That said, waiting all the way until 20th-level to get it seems a bit slow.

- Saph

They get 5/evil a bit earlier than that.

Kurald Galain
2008-10-20, 05:12 PM
As said, DR 10 is nothing to sneeze at.

Unless it's an evil creature doing the sneezing :smalltongue:

Sinfire Titan
2008-10-20, 08:10 PM
Ugh. They still have no idea what they are doing. That Banishment effect is the best part of the ability, but the DR is absolutely worthless at 20th.

Why? Look at all of the CR 20's in the MMs scattered throughout 3.5. How many of them can cast spells or use SLAs? And how many of them can just deal more damage than the 10 can ignore?


All MM CR 20's go straight through DR 10/Evil without even blinking. Balor? SLAs. Pit Fiend? SLAs and can Wish for you to lose 2 levels, then put you in Blasphemy Lock. Dragon? Enervate, many other Sorcerer/Wizard spells that utterly rape a melee character. Big T? Power Attack+Huge Str and BAB=Ignores the DR, eats you alive, lets you rot in his gut. Solar (don't ask why)? SLAs, and attacking one can be deemed an Evil act by the DM (thus screwing you even worse).

Roderick_BR
2008-10-21, 09:25 AM
Ugh. They still have no idea what they are doing. That Banishment effect is the best part of the ability, but the DR is absolutely worthless at 20th.

Why? Look at all of the CR 20's in the MMs scattered throughout 3.5. How many of them can cast spells or use SLAs? And how many of them can just deal more damage than the 10 can ignore?


All MM CR 20's go straight through DR 10/Evil without even blinking. Balor? SLAs. Pit Fiend? SLAs and can Wish for you to lose 2 levels, then put you in Blasphemy Lock. Dragon? Enervate, many other Sorcerer/Wizard spells that utterly rape a melee character. Big T? Power Attack+Huge Str and BAB=Ignores the DR, eats you alive, lets you rot in his gut. Solar (don't ask why)? SLAs, and attacking one can be deemed an Evil act by the DM (thus screwing you even worse).
Uh. The idea is not to make you immune to attacks, it's a part of a capstone, to give a little edge. How many monsters will have evil aligned attacks? Yes, many monsters deal more than 10 points of damage, but remember that you are taking 10 less points of damage per attack.
Yes. There's the SLA, but this was never meant to make you resistant/immune to them. For that you have Divine Grace.
And it's a permanent ability. If it were a "x rounds a day", giving you RD 30/- and SR equal to your level +11, then it would be what you want, I guess.
And man, it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better to get something instead of just "reach 20th level. Gain 1 more smite evil" deal from normal D&D 3.5
And it's still better than DR 10/magic, when EVERYTHING is bypassing that at CR 20 :smalltongue:

I mean, hey, if you don't want DR 10/evil, ask your DM to not get it. Be my guess.

Jack Zander
2008-10-21, 09:43 AM
Ugh. They still have no idea what they are doing.

Ugh. You still have no idea what you're talking about.

Sinfire Titan
2008-10-21, 09:43 AM
Uh. The idea is not to make you immune to attacks, it's a part of a capstone, to give a little edge. How many monsters will have evil aligned attacks? Yes, many monsters deal more than 10 points of damage, but remember that you are taking 10 less points of damage per attack.
Yes. There's the SLA, but this was never meant to make you resistant/immune to them. For that you have Divine Grace.
And it's a permanent ability. If it were a "x rounds a day", giving you RD 30/- and SR equal to your level +11, then it would be what you want, I guess.
And man, it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better to get something instead of just "reach 20th level. Gain 1 more smite evil" deal from normal D&D 3.5
And it's still better than DR 10/magic, when EVERYTHING is bypassing that at CR 20 :smalltongue:

I mean, hey, if you don't want DR 10/evil, ask your DM to not get it. Be my guess.

The thing is that DR is usless at that level because the Casters are the only ones doing any work, as you can't hurt the enemies worth a damn due to a majority of the CR 20s having SLAs. Divine Grace only protects against spells that offer saves (helpful hint, Dragons can just use Rays or other spells that don't offer saves). This doesn't prevent a Blasphemy lock or even the humble Grease spell from slowing you (you need magic items or an ally to get around that single spell, which is a serious problem).

This also doesn't help you ignore the buffs enemies will use to screw you over. Greater Mage Armor and Greater Shield alone make +12 AC, which hurts your odds of connecting drastically unless you optimize your attack bonuses. And I'm not even counting half of the spells a Dragon can use to buff itself, seeing as they can pick and choose what spells they want to use.

This is assuming you can even catch up to one, due to their incredible fly speed (if low maneuverability). If not you are out of luck.

The DR is an increase from the original Paladin, but it still isn't helping the Paladin save his party from a dragon.

lord_khaine
2008-10-21, 09:49 AM
and thats why you are running around in a team, there is a decent chance that either one of the casters will use a greater dispel magic, or that someone with UMD will use a scroll of it.

Jack Zander
2008-10-21, 09:52 AM
The thing is that DR is usless at that level because the Casters are the only ones doing any work, as you can't hurt the enemies worth a damn due to a majority of the CR 20s having SLAs. Divine Grace only protects against spells that offer saves (helpful hint, Dragons can just use Rays or other spells that don't offer saves). This doesn't prevent a Blasphemy lock or even the humble Grease spell from slowing you (you need magic items or an ally to get around that single spell, which is a serious problem).

This also doesn't help you ignore the buffs enemies will use to screw you over. Greater Mage Armor and Greater Shield alone make +12 AC, which hurts your odds of connecting drastically unless you optimize your attack bonuses. And I'm not even counting half of the spells a Dragon can use to buff itself, seeing as they can pick and choose what spells they want to use.

This is assuming you can even catch up to one, due to their incredible fly speed (if low maneuverability). If not you are out of luck.

The DR is an increase from the original Paladin, but it still isn't helping the Paladin save his party from a dragon.

If casters are doing all the work, tell your fighters to start playing the game too, or tell your casters to stop hogging the spotlight, or tell your DM to quit being a bad DM.

Grease requires a save (very easy for paladins to save against a level 1 spell) and a DC 10 balance check to move through (very easy for a level 1 commoner to do).

If you are a paladin, your attack bonuses are optimized. In fact, your DM should be casting these spells on his monsters just so that they can keep up with the party's power level.

If your paladin can't attack flying enemies, you're doing something wrong.

And congratulations, you've discovered that dragons are tough enemies to take down. Not just by paladins, but any character.

Also, nice distrction but this has nothing to do with what you or anyone else was saying. Paladin's get DR, not attack bonuses. If you want to attack their stats, you should point out how a dragon is going to nullify their defenses, not their offenses.

Kurald Galain
2008-10-21, 09:56 AM
Grease requires a save (very easy for paladins to save against a level 1 spell) and a DC 10 balance check to move through (very easy for a level 1 commoner to do).
A 55% chance is not "very easy".


And congratulations, you've discovered that dragons are tough enemies to take down. Not just by paladins, but any character.
Two words: Shivering Touch.

LibraryOgre
2008-10-21, 09:58 AM
The thing is that DR is usless at that level because the Casters are the only ones doing any work

See, this may be true in theory, but I find very few 20th level characters sit around saying "Oh, well, since I can't cast a spell, I can do nothing this round."

The casters may be more efficient at this level, but they're not the only ones doing work.

Jack Zander
2008-10-21, 10:04 AM
A 55% chance is not "very easy".

That would be 50% chance, and if a commoner can succeed half the time, a 20th level character sure won't have a problem with it. Even with no ranks in balance and heavy armor, your gear should bring you back up to par with any of the following: Gloves of Dex, any item that grants you flying, Ring of Freedom of Movement, etc.


Two words: Shivering Touch.

Sure, but only after you've dispelled his spell turning spell, and only in games where DMs allow that spell. Also, getting into melee with a dragon is not something a spellcaster wants to do.

kamikasei
2008-10-21, 10:07 AM
That would be 50% chance

DC 10. +0 bonus. Roll a 10 or higher to succeed. That's a 55% chance.

Kurald Galain
2008-10-21, 10:30 AM
That would be 50% chance,
No, it's 55%. Statistics is funny that way.


and if a commoner can succeed half the time, a 20th level character sure won't have a problem with it.
Nope. The half level bonus to skill checks is 4E, you know. Not all characters benefit from a high dexterity.



Sure, but only after you've dispelled his spell turning spell, and only in games where DMs allow that spell.
Spell turning also fails to stop touch range spells. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellTurning.htm) And touch range spells can be delivered by e.g. a familiar, a spectral hand, or archmage's arcane reach.

See, it's easy to claim that whenever the casters are overshadowing the fighters, it's the DM's fault; but if you actually look at the rules and statistics, you'll see that the system is skewed quite a bit in that direction. Your arguments here tend to boil down to a misunderstanding of the rules, or Oberoni fallacy.

JaxGaret
2008-10-21, 10:33 AM
If casters are doing all the work, tell your fighters to start playing the game too

Option A: blame the players for something that's not their fault. Bad idea IMO.


, or tell your casters to stop hogging the spotlight

Option B: tell your players how to roleplay their characters. Bad idea IMO.


, or tell your DM to quit being a bad DM.

Option C: blame the DM for something that's not their fault. Bad idea IMO.


The fault lies with the class balance, not anywhere else.

EvilElitest
2008-10-21, 10:43 AM
Indeed, it does not. My first guess is that they've redefined "DR x/y" to mean "resist X against Y" (as it does in 4E) instead of "resist X against anything except for Y" (as it does in 3E).

yeah that would clear a lot up


As for this, it isn't great but it does make some sense, not much. It takes pure evil to hurt a paladin, so the DR is more against normal stuff.........like i said, not much
from
EE

Starbuck_II
2008-10-21, 10:46 AM
Ugh. They still have no idea what they are doing. That Banishment effect is the best part of the ability, but the DR is absolutely worthless at 20th.

Why? Look at all of the CR 20's in the MMs scattered throughout 3.5. How many of them can cast spells or use SLAs? And how many of them can just deal more damage than the 10 can ignore?


All MM CR 20's go straight through DR 10/Evil without even blinking. Balor? SLAs. Pit Fiend? SLAs and can Wish for you to lose 2 levels, then put you in Blasphemy Lock. Dragon? Enervate, many other Sorcerer/Wizard spells that utterly rape a melee character. Big T? Power Attack+Huge Str and BAB=Ignores the DR, eats you alive, lets you rot in his gut. Solar (don't ask why)? SLAs, and attacking one can be deemed an Evil act by the DM (thus screwing you even worse).

Hint: Balors and Pit fiends are evil.
Evil creatures's weapons (natural or held in their cases) goes through Dr/evil.

So that was expected. Pathfinder isn't making Paladins as good as casters: they are trying to level the playing field and make classes better than 3.5 PHB version.

Is this better: yes.

Is it good enough: you think not.

But hey, at least they are trying.

Not like how much their screwed up the monk (Full bab? Nevar!).

Artanis
2008-10-21, 12:01 PM
*stuff about DR 10/evil sucking*
No matter how ineffective DR 10/evil is at CR 20, it's still better than nothing. Even if it provides no real difference, which would you rather have: a bunch of class features; or that same bunch of class features PLUS some DR?

Jack Zander
2008-10-21, 12:05 PM
Hmm, it seems I not only rolled a 1 on my knowledge: rules check, but I also rolled a 1 on my statistics check.

That's okay, I'm sure there are tons of other ways to prevent cheaty face spells that i just don't know about yet.

Roderick_BR
2008-10-21, 02:27 PM
The thing is that DR is usless at that level because the Casters are the only ones doing any work, as you can't hurt the enemies worth a damn due to a majority of the CR 20s having SLAs. Divine Grace only protects against spells that offer saves (helpful hint, Dragons can just use Rays or other spells that don't offer saves). This doesn't prevent a Blasphemy lock or even the humble Grease spell from slowing you (you need magic items or an ally to get around that single spell, which is a serious problem).

This also doesn't help you ignore the buffs enemies will use to screw you over. Greater Mage Armor and Greater Shield alone make +12 AC, which hurts your odds of connecting drastically unless you optimize your attack bonuses. And I'm not even counting half of the spells a Dragon can use to buff itself, seeing as they can pick and choose what spells they want to use.

This is assuming you can even catch up to one, due to their incredible fly speed (if low maneuverability). If not you are out of luck.

The DR is an increase from the original Paladin, but it still isn't helping the Paladin save his party from a dragon.
Remember that one of the problems that Paizo wants to fix is the "casters kill all" that 3.0-3.5 have. A little buff, that can be increased later with more magics is still better than nothing. If you want to be all-powerful, immune to all attacks, and kill everything in one round, play a full caster in 3.5.

Starbuck_II
2008-10-21, 02:31 PM
Remember that one of the problems that Paizo wants to fix is the "casters kill all" that 3.0-3.5 have. A little buff, that can be increased later with more magics is still better than nothing. If you want to be all-powerful, immune to all attacks, and kill everything in one round, play a full caster in 3.5.

Agreed, Blasphemy offers a save partial or negate now (the death effects are save partial causing damage on a successful save).

Renegade Paladin
2008-10-21, 03:48 PM
Two words: Shivering Touch.
1.) Good luck touching it.

2.) Dragons are still immune to paralysis.

RPGuru1331
2008-10-21, 04:12 PM
1.) Good luck touching it.

2.) Dragons are still immune to paralysis.

Shivering Touch deals Dex damage, no? 0 in a stat is a crippling, regardless of which stat (Except Con, which /kills/ you). Immunity to Paralysis isn't immunity to teh effect of dex 0.

And well, the "I can deliver touch spells without touching" just got fixed anyway. Seriously, what whack job decided that spells balanced by their pathetic range should be allowed to have decent range?

Aaanyway, not an issue in Paizo's pathfinder, unless they say "We work with all DnD sourcebooks". What all have they done to either make everyone else awesome, or nerf casters? No need for massive specifics, just a minor explanation.

Kurald Galain
2008-10-21, 05:07 PM
1.) Good luck touching it.
Easy enough. As I already pointed out in the thread, familiars, Spectral Hand, or arcane reach, among others. Or, you know, win initiative. Dragons have a touch AC of around 8, or even 6 if they're great wyrm. Good luck missing that.


2.) Dragons are still immune to paralysis.
Yes, but they are not immune to having their dexterity drained to zero. Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless. Doesn't say squat about paralysis.

Jack Zander
2008-10-21, 05:23 PM
Ah, I found it. Dragon's are immune to Shivering touch from this spell (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2b1D5w82yU).

Kurald Galain
2008-10-21, 05:34 PM
Ah, I found it. Dragon's are immune to Shivering touch from this spell (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2b1D5w82yU).

Thankfully I'm immune to that spell because of this spell (http://xkcd.com).

chiasaur11
2008-10-21, 05:38 PM
Thankfully I'm immune to that spell because of this spell (http://xkcd.com).

Google chrome also helps.

RPGuru1331
2008-10-21, 05:50 PM
Ah, I found it. Dragon's are immune to Shivering touch from this spell (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2b1D5w82yU).

You fail at rickrolls forever; Linking to youtube when youtube is not immediately relevant? :P

Jack Zander
2008-10-21, 06:01 PM
You fail at rickrolls forever; Linking to youtube when youtube is not immediately relevant? :P

Ah, but how could you have known it was a rickroll if you hadn't clicked the link yourself?

RPGuru1331
2008-10-21, 06:03 PM
Ah, but how could you have known it was a rickroll if you hadn't clicked the link yourself?

Easily. It's an irrelevant youtube link.
Evil: Subtext. This forum has many people easily duped into revealing mistakes with a little willingness to bluff.

Jack Zander
2008-10-21, 06:10 PM
But I could have used this link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wposk0m3PHk&feature=related) instead.

Oslecamo
2008-10-21, 06:21 PM
Easy enough. As I already pointed out in the thread, familiars, Spectral Hand, or arcane reach, among others. Or, you know, win initiative. Dragons have a touch AC of around 8, or even 6 if they're great wyrm. Good luck missing that.



Familiars will get owned by oportunity attacks, and spectral hand is no match for magic missile. Arcane reach will only be available at high levels, and then the dragon has:

Cintilating scales ! Every self respecting dragon doesn't go out of his cavern whitout it casted on him.

Now the dragon's AC touch AC is high enough you'll have trouble hiting them even with true strike.

Not to mention dragons have that thing, what's it called? Ah, brains. They're not suposed to face you head on, they're suposed to use their bazillion special abilities to soft you up from afar while keeping hidden and only then close in and eat you.

RTGoodman
2008-10-21, 06:24 PM
But I could have used this link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wposk0m3PHk&feature=related) instead.

But... you're still using a YouTube link. Seriously, if you're going to try to Rick Roll someone or trick them into going to ANY website/video/whatever, use tinyurl.com.

JaxGaret
2008-10-21, 06:25 PM
But... you're still using a YouTube link. Seriously, if you're going to try to Rick Roll someone or trick them into going to ANY website/video/whatever, use tinyurl.com.

tinyvirus.com? No thank you.

Renegade Paladin
2008-10-21, 08:05 PM
Yes, but they are not immune to having their dexterity drained to zero. Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless. Doesn't say squat about paralysis.
Yes, it does. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#abilityDamaged)
A character with Strength 0 falls to the ground and is helpless. A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed. A character with Constitution 0 is dead. A character with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma 0 is unconscious.
In the hypertext SRD, it even links to the paralyzed condition. :smallamused: DEX 0 induces paralysis.

RPGuru1331
2008-10-21, 11:43 PM
Yes, it does. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#abilityDamaged)
In the hypertext SRD, it even links to the paralyzed condition. :smallamused: DEX 0 induces paralysis.
I'm going to fight this on two counts.

1: DMG pg. 289
"Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless"

2: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#whiteDragon
"All dragons have immunity to sleep and paralysis effects. Each variety of dragon has immunity to one or two additional forms of attack no matter what its age, as given in its description."

Now I ask you a simple question: Death Ward blocks against Death Effects. If I die by hitpoint damage, is that a 'death effect'?

You are left with two unpleasant possibilities to admit.

"There exists a spell in a sourcebook that is completely broken."

"There exists a spell in the CORE RULEBOOK that will make you immune to dying, EVER."

Which of these two is the more unpleasant to admit?


Cintilating scales ! Every self respecting dragon doesn't go out of his cavern whitout it casted on him.

Now the dragon's AC touch AC is high enough you'll have trouble hiting them even with true strike.
That fighter's to hit is +20 over the wizard's? 'cause.. you can't just make him immune to a wizard's cheap trick. You have to make him vulnerable in such a way that the rest of the party doesn't seem or feel useless.

Kurald Galain
2008-10-22, 03:33 AM
Yes, it does. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#abilityDamaged)
In the hypertext SRD, it even links to the paralyzed condition. :smallamused: DEX 0 induces paralysis.

You're missing two things here. First, you're linking to the summary, rather than to the actual rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm), which do not mention paralysis. And second, those links are dependent on words, not context (e.g. every instance of word X will be linked to page Y).

Plus, what RPGuru said. And also, "Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity."

Devils_Advocate
2008-10-22, 03:47 AM
Think of it like this:

If evil had DR/Evil, why would people bother spending the time and effort to make sanctified weapons to use against evil stuff?
Well, they wouldn't, obviously.


So it makes sense that evil things have DR/Good. If evil things have DR/Good, then wouldn't it make sense that good things have DR/Evil?
Let's be honest here and admit that we threw sense out the window when we weaponized benevolence.


I view it as Evil weapons are specifically designed to penetrate the defenses of good Celestials and Paladins. The Paladin has a holy shield protecting her from injury, but Evil weapons eat through it because they're made to do so.
Right. Unholy weapons aren't great at hurting Good creatures because Good creatures are weak to Unholy weapons, so much as Good creatures are weak to Unholy weapons because Unholy weapons are great at hurting Good creatures. If you think of the Evil weapon's effectiveness as a property of the weapon, it's more intuitive.

"Captain, I believe I can adjust phaser frequency to penetrate their shields!"

Renegade Paladin
2008-10-22, 08:05 AM
I'm going to fight this on two counts.

1: DMG pg. 289
"Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless"

2: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#whiteDragon
"All dragons have immunity to sleep and paralysis effects. Each variety of dragon has immunity to one or two additional forms of attack no matter what its age, as given in its description."

Now I ask you a simple question: Death Ward blocks against Death Effects. If I die by hitpoint damage, is that a 'death effect'?

You are left with two unpleasant possibilities to admit.

"There exists a spell in a sourcebook that is completely broken."

"There exists a spell in the CORE RULEBOOK that will make you immune to dying, EVER."

Which of these two is the more unpleasant to admit?
Neither, because the second condition is false. Point me to the definition of a paralysis effect in the rules. Let me save you some trouble and tell you that it isn't there. So either dragons are immune to something that doesn't exist, or they're simply immune to paralysis.

Of course, even if the second condition was true, it wouldn't negate the first; shivering touch is completely broken for things other than dragons. In fact, it's more so for things other than dragons, because a dragon is more likely to eat the caster before it gets touched.

Jack Zander
2008-10-22, 08:30 AM
"Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity."

Yes, but how are you going to get next to the dragon in the first place?

Knaight
2008-10-22, 08:45 AM
Hulking Hurlers and readied actions. Or time stop, quickened dimension door, quickened dimension door, with a contingent escape dimension door that works when you hit with the touch attack, etc.

Jack Zander
2008-10-22, 08:55 AM
Well that may work for 17th+ level wizards and only after they blow all of their high level spells in one encounter.

Or if your DM is letting Hulking Hurler cheese.

How is the wizard suppose to touch a dragon in any normal (not theoretical) campaign?

Zeful
2008-10-22, 11:12 AM
Neither, because the second condition is false. Point me to the definition of a paralysis effect in the rules. Let me save you some trouble and tell you that it isn't there. So either dragons are immune to something that doesn't exist, or they're simply immune to paralysis.

They are immune to the effects caused by paralysis, which means paralyzing them doesn't do anything. Their still paralyzed it just doesn't do anything.

Kurald Galain
2008-10-22, 11:14 AM
I love how people are trying to rules lawyer here that one of the most broken spells in the game really isn't broken...

Starbuck_II
2008-10-22, 11:19 AM
I love how people are trying to rules lawyer here that one of the most broken spells in the game really isn't broken...

No, they are admitting it (shivering touch) is broken. They just don't agree that Dragons are immune.

Oslecamo
2008-10-22, 11:42 AM
I love how people are trying to rules lawyer here that one of the most broken spells in the game really isn't broken...

Most broken? Pleaaseee.

Polymorph is broken. Gate is broken. Shapechange is broken. Greater celerity is broken. Miracle is broken. Planar biding is broken.

Shivering touch is just a very nice attack that still doesn't kill creatures immune to ability damage, needs other feats and spells to make it really shine, and can still fail on a bad roll on part of the caster.

Not to mention creatures that simply don't need to move to be a threat, or creatures with high touch ACs, ect, ect. Or simply several oponents at once.

So, not broken. Good spell, but far from broken.

RPGuru1331
2008-10-22, 12:13 PM
Most broken? Pleaaseee.

Polymorph is broken. Gate is broken. Shapechange is broken. Greater celerity is broken. Miracle is broken. Planar biding is broken.

Shivering touch is just a very nice attack that still doesn't kill creatures immune to ability damage, needs other feats and spells to make it really shine, and can still fail on a bad roll on part of the caster.

Not to mention creatures that simply don't need to move to be a threat, or creatures with high touch ACs, ect, ect. Or simply several oponents at once.

So, not broken. Good spell, but far from broken.

I wouldn't necessarily agree that it's not broken, but I'll grant that compared to Gate, Shapechange, etc, it's not bad. Still, so reasonable.


I love how people are trying to rules lawyer here that one of the most broken spells in the game really isn't broken...
Badly, at that.


Neither, because the second condition is false. Point me to the definition of a paralysis effect in the rules. Let me save you some trouble and tell you that it isn't there. So either dragons are immune to something that doesn't exist, or they're simply immune to paralysis.

Of course, even if the second condition was true, it wouldn't negate the first; shivering touch is completely broken for things other than dragons. In fact, it's more so for things other than dragons, because a dragon is more likely to eat the caster before it gets touched.
Gladly, when not at school. Also, you have a problem, in that you've already had it demonstrated that *even within the SRD*, Dex 0 is in fact, not simply paralysis, but apparently something else.

As to a definition of an effect, I'm at school so nothing to prove it offhand (That'll change in.. 10 hours), I'm relatively certain that X Effects are defined as those inflicted instantly by spells, and that if a particular status is a natural consequence, you have no help, as per the aforementioned Death Ward example. Death is a natural consequence of -10 HP, and so Death Ward's protection from Death Effects is of no use, nor would it help against drowning. If you were immune to effects that reduced movement speed, you would still be have to stop if you hit a wall, or if you were tied up.

Hal
2008-10-22, 12:32 PM
All this Dragon/Paralysis stuff aside, the largest criticism I see about this ability is that, at levels like this, DR X (no matter what x is) doesn't do squat for you against all those spells and abilities that shut down a melee character in other ways.

My question is, aside from taking those spells away, what ability would you give to a high level paladin that evens the playing field without being so broken that somebody would ever not play a paladin?

thegurullamen
2008-10-22, 12:39 PM
My question is, aside from taking those spells away, what ability would you give to a high level paladin that evens the playing field without being so broken that somebody would ever not play a paladin?

Mettle, SR 7/12/17/22+HD against evil spells and spells cast by evil creatures at levels 5/10/15/20 and a bitching halo that does something both useful and awesome. And the cinematic for it would last three full minutes and be unskippable, but you don't care because it's awesome, like BSG's "Exodus" awesome. Yeah.