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Aahz
2008-10-20, 07:56 PM
Just an idle thought I had... would a good fix for Natural Spell (which most people seem to agree is overpowered) be the following addition?

"While in your wild shape, your caster level is reduced by the hit dice of the form you have assumed". (might not work since the druid can wildshape into a Tiny form at level 11).

or,

"While in your wild shape, your caster level is reduced by 4".

or something along those lines? It seems quite fair to limit the druid to casting less-powerful spells while in his/her wild shape.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-10-20, 08:02 PM
I'd say it's fair to not allow the Druid to cast spells while wildshaped.

Casting spells while in the form of a Dire Bear is one of the reasons Druids are so ridiculous.

Glimbur
2008-10-20, 08:08 PM
You could also make Natural Spell a metamagic. Even at only +1, that's still significant.

ocato
2008-10-20, 08:11 PM
Well, a great fix goes like this.

"May I take Natural Spell?"

"No, no you may not."

However that's a bit draconian for most people's taste, so I'd go with a +2 Metamagic feat. Since the Druid prepares her spells and +2 is a little steep, she will have to be very careful what she prepares as a Natural Spell.

Sinfire Titan
2008-10-20, 08:14 PM
The penalty is a good idea, but the -4 isn't enough. Limiting their ability to cast spells of a certain level (no higher than the CR of the animal they morph into) makes it more balanced, but you would need to disallow the Dire Animal forms and alternate Wild Shape abilities (like Wild Shape: Outsider), and removes the need for the penalty.

Mr.Bookworm
2008-10-20, 08:41 PM
Natural Spell is a myth Shapeshifter Druids made up while dreaming about being insanely broken.

Jack Zander
2008-10-20, 08:58 PM
Because a druid is still limited to one action a round, natural spell isn't the problem. The problem is the fact that druids can stay in their animal form all day long. I'd instead limit wildshape to last a number of rounds equal to their druid level, and give them more uses a day.

Of course, this method doesn't mesh with real mythology druids who could disguise themselves as animals all day and only come out when they wanted to be seen.

Rei_Jin
2008-10-20, 09:04 PM
Another option would be to make Wildshape work like Sorceror Metamagic, so that it takes a Full Round to cast any spell whilst in Wild Shape.

When it takes a full round, it can be more easily disrupted, and it will cost the Druid a lot more in terms of risks and available actions to cast spells, meaning that they're only likely to do it out of combat, or in an emergency.

Alternatively, you make it a Sudden Metamagic or a Metamagic +4. So you can only cast 1 spell per day per time you take the feat if you take the Sudden version, or only at a maximum of level 5 spells. Suddenly, the cost to use it became much, much higher.

Frosty
2008-10-20, 09:11 PM
Make it so when you Wildshape, you don't take on the physical ability scores of the creatures. Now, the druid's own ability scores actually matter.

Zeful
2008-10-20, 09:16 PM
You could always just halve their caster level while in animal form, I'd make it a penalty of 1/2 druid levels rounded down rather than "You are treated as a caster equal to one half your druid class levels." The first prevents Practised Spellcaster from bypassing the restriction (You still have a caster level equal to your hit dice, you just receive a penalty to your caster levels while under the condition of "wildshaped").

JaxGaret
2008-10-21, 12:22 AM
There's no reason why a Druid in animal form would all of a sudden have their spells be weaker in terms of CL. CL is kind of intrinsic to the caster.

Making Natural Spell a type of metamagic (+0 or +1) is the fairest interpretation I've seen.

streakster
2008-10-21, 12:34 AM
My favorite is

"Natural Spell represents hard practice training to cast spells in your animal shapes. Every time you take this feat, you may cast another level of spells to be castable while Wildshaped."

So 1 taking of this feat allows 0-level spells, 2 allows first level, and so on.

BobVosh
2008-10-21, 12:35 AM
Everytime they say they are going to take natural spell, hit them. Eventually conditioning will take over and they won't wish to take it.

I think metamagic natural spell at +0 but you can only cast it in wildshape should be fine. However I don't have this hatred for NS.

Leewei
2008-10-21, 12:57 AM
Wildshape should represent a true barrier to communication to other PCs as well as social interaction with NPCs.If a druid PC seeks out telepathic or other unnatural means of communication to circumvent this, point out to the player that doing so represents irreverence to nature and the gifts it has bestowed upon the druid.

Assuming animal form to fight, travel or use special abilities, then assuming humanoid form to socially interact will make a druid really feel the uses per day limit on wildshape.

Ultimately, though, Natural Spell is a smaller part of the issue. Treant form, humanoid elemental forms, and the higher end spells are far beyond what this feat does.

Teron
2008-10-21, 01:33 AM
Another option would be to make Wildshape work like Sorceror Metamagic, so that it takes a Full Round to cast any spell whilst in Wild Shape.

When it takes a full round, it can be more easily disrupted, and it will cost the Druid a lot more in terms of risks and available actions to cast spells, meaning that they're only likely to do it out of combat, or in an emergency.

Alternatively, you make it a Sudden Metamagic or a Metamagic +4. So you can only cast 1 spell per day per time you take the feat if you take the Sudden version, or only at a maximum of level 5 spells. Suddenly, the cost to use it became much, much higher.
Casting metamagic spells as a sorcerer takes a full-round action, not a full round.

Starsinger
2008-10-21, 01:43 AM
Have Natural Spell apply to a specific form only. "Natural Spell: Wombat" for example, only allows you to cast spells in Wombat form.

Possibly, if the DM is generous, Natural Spell: Wombat may apply to Dire Wombats as well.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-21, 01:56 AM
Why is the idea of Druids casting magic in animal form ridiculous, Oracle Hunter? I'd say just banning it would be the best idea, or nerfing it so that only spells which are 2 levels lower then the Druid's most powerful spells can be used when Wildshaped. Also, why would using telepathy class as unnatural in this case, Leewei? I wouldn't class it as disrepecting nature at all.

Akisa
2008-10-21, 02:09 AM
Or how about giving party a continuous speak with animals item?

Jack_Simth
2008-10-21, 02:40 AM
Why is the idea of Druids casting magic in animal form ridiculous, Oracle Hunter?
He didn't say the fact that they can is ridiculous, he said it's part of what makes them ridiculous. I'm guessing he means something along the lines of "overpowered compared to most other core classes between levels 6 and 16".

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-21, 02:58 AM
Sorry about the misinterpretation. That would make more sense.

Sebastian
2008-10-21, 05:21 AM
To fix Natural Spells

1) turn it into a metamagic feat, you prepare spells that you can cast in animal form and only in animal form, i think a +1 slot would be enough. If the prepped spell can be cast even in normal form then make it +2.

2) drop it, use the other metamagic feats, if you want to cast while in animal form prepare a silented (no speak), stilled (no hands for gestures) and what else necesary-ed spell.

Akisa
2008-10-21, 05:41 AM
To fix Natural Spells


2) drop it, use the other metamagic feats, if you want to cast while in animal form prepare a silented (no speak), stilled (no hands for gestures) and what else necesary-ed spell.

Casting in animal form you're still providing Verbal and somatic components you're still just spending spending feet to allow substitution voice and somatic for that of an animal.

I hear by suggest to rename this topic to "Let's just make Natural Spell useless" because that's what people want.

Jack_Simth
2008-10-21, 05:47 AM
Casting in animal form you're still providing Verbal and somatic components you're still just spending spending feet to allow substitution voice and somatic for that of an animal.

I hear by suggest to rename this topic to "Let's just make Natural Spell useless" because that's what people want.
The trick is that almost nobody agrees on how useful, exactly, it should be, while most agree that it's a big part of what makes the Druid one of the stronger classes out there.

So one person's "balanced" is another person's "useless" and a third's "still overpowered" and there can't be any real consensus.

BobVosh
2008-10-21, 05:53 AM
So one person's "balanced" is another person's "useless" and a third's "still overpowered" and there can't be any real consensus.

Thus is the theory of all game balance. It is the holy writ of disagreement amongst nerds.

Weiser_Cain
2008-10-21, 06:13 AM
I just think that when the beam of light shoots out of the bear's mouth it becomes the primary target.

Epinephrine
2008-10-21, 07:45 AM
I like the metamagic suggestion, nobody likes having to prep metamagic, but it gives the possibility.

The other options I like are: No natural spell, or (better yet) Shapeshift variant druids. Both are reasonably good options. The shapeshift is nice because it accomplishes several things: You can use the form as much as you like, no x/day limit. It has no casting ruled into it, so it's not providing a nigh-invulnerable platform for casting, stats matter to some extent, though you get enough strength from the big forms not to worry too much about it.

Burley
2008-10-21, 08:07 AM
Shapeshift variant druids.

This. It makes more sense, is better balanced, and gives more options for roleplay, I think. It just evens out the Druid in so many ways.

Kesnit
2008-10-21, 08:23 AM
The problem is the fact that druids can stay in their animal form all day long. I'd instead limit wildshape to last a number of rounds equal to their druid level, and give them more uses a day.

They can only stay in shape 1 hour/level.

A wildshaped Druid loses the benefit off all equipment worn, unless it has the Wild ability (which, IIRC, is a +3 equivilant). Nice armor, weapons, rings, necklaces - all gone. So what is the point of Wildshaping if you can't do anything in Wildshape form?

Remember, Druids are prepared casters, so they can't metamagic on the fly. A Druid would have to know which spells to prepare well in advance in order to even use them. Since they can't stay in Wildshape all day, they would have to know when to shift so they don't waste the spells they metamagiced. (Or waste a round every combat shifting.)

And again, Wildshaped at lower levels, they are at a disadvantage because their new form is probably worse than their natural one.

Jack Zander
2008-10-21, 09:38 AM
They can only stay in shape 1 hour/level.

A wildshaped Druid loses the benefit off all equipment worn, unless it has the Wild ability (which, IIRC, is a +3 equivilant). Nice armor, weapons, rings, necklaces - all gone. So what is the point of Wildshaping if you can't do anything in Wildshape form?

Remember, Druids are prepared casters, so they can't metamagic on the fly. A Druid would have to know which spells to prepare well in advance in order to even use them. Since they can't stay in Wildshape all day, they would have to know when to shift so they don't waste the spells they metamagiced. (Or waste a round every combat shifting.)

And again, Wildshaped at lower levels, they are at a disadvantage because their new form is probably worse than their natural one.

Emphasis mine.

Do you realize how long 1 hour per day is? It's all day for an adventuring party. Even if your DM really splits up the action, any druid above 10th level is going to be in animal form anytime he isn't asleep (and sometimes even then), especially since he can wildshape multiple times per day.

Also, the fact that your equipment is gone is moot. Anything you can wildshape into is a decent challenge for a party of your level. Druids sure as nine hells can do whatever they want while in wildshape. Where did you get the idea that they can't do anything?

Sinfire Titan
2008-10-21, 09:45 AM
Kesnit: Wilding Clasps>>>>>>>>>>Wild enhancement. They can be placed on any item that can be worn, and only cost 4000gp. And they are dirt cheap past 10th level.

Kesnit
2008-10-21, 09:49 AM
Emphasis mine.

Do you realize how long 1 hour per day is? It's all day for an adventuring party.

Eventually. Druids get Wildshape at LVL 5. 5 hours is NOT an adventuring day. An intelligent DM is going to work the system to keep the Druid from being able maintain WS through every combat (and between). (At least until LVL 11 or 12, but by then they can shift enough it becomes moot.)


Also, the fact that your equipment is gone is moot. Anything you can wildshape into is a decent challenge for a party of your level. Druids sure as nine hells can do whatever they want while in wildshape. Where did you get the idea that they can't do anything?

"The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with." - Highly limiting. You can't just pick a creature out of the MM.

"The new form’s Hit Dice can’t exceed the character’s druid level." - Again, limiting.

"turn herself into any Small or Medium animal" Note the word "animal." Even if you include Dire Animals, doing a quick scan of the SRD shows NONE of CR higher than 4. (Higher CR are Large, which a Druid can't change into until 8th level. Even once the Druid gets that, Dire Bear and Tiger are CR 8, Dire Lion is CR 7.)

Also, they lose the benefit of stat-boosting items (like a Periapt of WIS to boost DC of spells) while WS-ed.

Jack Zander
2008-10-21, 09:57 AM
Eventually. Druids get Wildshape at LVL 5. 5 hours is NOT an adventuring day.

Tell that to 90% of games.


"The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with." - Highly limiting. You can't just pick a creature out of the MM.

Knowledge: Nature


"The new form’s Hit Dice can’t exceed the character’s druid level." - Again, limiting.

In what way is that limiting? You can still turn into animals that are stronger than the party fighter.

Also, don't forget that you can wildshape into an ape and keep all of your equipment.

Kesnit
2008-10-21, 10:08 AM
Tell that to 90% of games.

Knowledge: Nature

Which doesn't cover Magical Beasts (although a Druid can't WS into one of those either.


Also, don't forget that you can wildshape into an ape and keep all of your equipment.

Ape is CR 2. The party would be at least 5.

Although... "Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional." On an ape, it would just be a pretty ring.

TheCountAlucard
2008-10-21, 10:16 AM
Although... "Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional." On an ape, it would just be a pretty ring.

See, it doesn't say you can't take it off, and then put it back on once you're wildshaped, though.

streakster
2008-10-21, 10:17 AM
Although... "Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional." On an ape, it would just be a pretty ring.

Drop all equipment, shape, pick it up and wear it, you're a spellcasting giant monkey with armor.

EDIT:^^^Your ninjutsu is most strong, undead one...

JaxGaret
2008-10-21, 10:28 AM
Ape is CR 2. The party would be at least 5.

Dire Apes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direApe.htm) have 5 HD. CR doesn't matter.

Temp.
2008-10-21, 10:38 AM
Which doesn't cover Magical Beasts (although a Druid can't WS into one of those either.
Chewbacca was from Endor?


Ape is CR 2. The party would be at least 5.The point is more the free pre-enhancement 22 Strength, the natural attacks and the pre-enhancement 4 natural armor. All of that's more than your Fighter's going to have at level 5, regardless of CR.

Once you take the Fighter's increased BAB and extra feat or two, they're going to come out about even. Then the Druid has his Animal Comapnion. And in another level, he'll be casting spells better than most other classes.

Kesnit
2008-10-21, 10:40 AM
See, it doesn't say you can't take it off, and then put it back on once you're wildshaped, though.

That isn't an issue with Natural Spell. That is the DM letting the Druid get away with something.


Dire Apes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direApe.htm) have 5 HD. CR doesn't matter.

Which is the minimum level for the party for a Druid to WS (and too low for a Druid to have Natural Spell anyway, unless the player took a level of something else and got Druid 5 at LVL 6).

monty
2008-10-21, 10:47 AM
Which is the minimum level for the party for a Druid to WS (and too low for a Druid to have Natural Spell anyway, unless the player took a level of something else and got Druid 5 at LVL 6).

So? It's likely still better than a level 6 fighter.

imperialspectre
2008-10-21, 10:50 AM
Apes and Dire Apes are Large, meaning that the druid can't WS into them until 8th level.

Gerrtt
2008-10-21, 10:56 AM
How about something like:

Natural Spell I: Cast spells with levels 0-3 while in wild shape.
Natural Spell II: Cast spells with levels 4-6 while in wild shape.
Natural Spell III: Cast spells with levels 7-9 while in whild shape.

Epic Natural Spell: Cast 1 epic spell per day while in wild shape.

Or:

Each day you can cast one spell per caster level while in wildshape. (So CL 5 = 5/day wildshape spells).

Fax Celestis
2008-10-21, 11:15 AM
That isn't an issue with Natural Spell. That is the DM letting the Druid get away with something.

Incorrect. That's an issue with Wildshape: it doesn't qualify what happens to items that are added after the initial shaping, or what happens when you come out of wildshape. What happens if I have on a Periapt of Wisdom +2, wildshape into a tiger, and then have my friend put a Collar of Inertial Shielding on me? And what happens when I shift back?

Wildshape's fundamental issue is that it is vague: what, exactly, qualifies "familiarity", in a fashion that means "Each DM will be using a similar field of animals"?

What, exactly, happens to equipment before, during, and after shifting--does it disappear to the Quasipseudodemielemental Plane of Wildshaping, or is it part of my anatomy now?

Can I wear magical items when in wildshape, assuming I have the proper slots for them? I hear circlets of intellect +2 are all the rage for dire tigers these days.

What happens with ongoing spell effects that change your physiology? "I'm a druid. I cast bite of the werebear and girallon's blessing, and then wildshape into a tiger. Am I a bear-headed, six-legged tiger now?" Maybe this is where bearhounds and owlbears and girallon come from?

If my arm gets sliced off in wildshape, does it come back when I shift back--and if so, is my bracelet of friendship still there?

Do I drown in air if my chosen form has the Amphibious special quality and the Aquatic subtype, or does "common sense" reign? After all, I don't get to obtain the special qualities of my new form.

Do I really need Natural Spell if I turn into a monkey-like creature? After all, alternate form says: "The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components."

This is just the tip of the iceberg.

Kantur
2008-10-21, 11:15 AM
Wildshape duration per day:
Level 5 - 5 hours, still not shabby but not brilliant either.
Level 6 - 12 hours. Much closer to all day if you find a particular form that can keep up with the party and do what you want it to...
Level 7 - 21 hours. Take 8 hours off a day for sleep and another for the wizard to prepare spells for the days and you're in animal form nearly all day with one wildshape to spare.
Level 8 - 24 hours. Literally all day if you're marching for 24 hours per day. Or long enough to have a 'spare' wildshape for scouting of a different combat form, or just to shift to human and back for free healing purposes.
Level 9 - 27 hours
Level 10 - 40 hours.

At level 5 it's not to bad, but when you hit 6 and 7 (Perfect for natural spell) and get much more wildshape time per day is when it starts being apparent why the druid only has the strength to use power attack in wildshape and had dex as a dump stat...

TheCountAlucard
2008-10-21, 11:31 AM
If my arm gets sliced off in wildshape, does it come back when I shift back--and if so, is my bracelet of friendship still there?

Luckily for us, there aren't any rules for losing limbs in the first place, making us wonder what the point of a certain seventh-level spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/regenerate.htm) is.


Wildshape duration per day:
...
Level 10 - 40 hours.

?!?

Fax Celestis
2008-10-21, 11:55 AM
?!?

Multiply number of uses per day by the duration of one use for total duration per day. "40 hours" means there's room for lots of overlap.

Jack Zander
2008-10-21, 12:01 PM
Which doesn't cover Magical Beasts (although a Druid can't WS into one of those either.

Then why did you bother mentioning it?

It sounds to me like you're trying to set up strawmen. You're thinking those of us who have a problem with wildshape think it can do things beyond RAW. We don't. We're giving you hard facts about what it can do exactly, and why that's broken.

If you were DM and your druid player turned into an ape then picked up magical gear, how would you handle that?

Kesnit
2008-10-21, 12:08 PM
Apes and Dire Apes are Large, meaning that the druid can't WS into them until 8th level.

Ah, you're right.


So? It's likely still better than a level 6 fighter.

It was also pointed out that a LVL 6 Druid couldn't shift into a Dire Ape. So let's run the numbers with a Dire Badger, which is the strongest Medium animal I see (STR 14).

Druid BAB: +4
AB in WS: +6
AC: 16
Attacks: 1d4+2 (X2) and 16d+1, or 12 points per round

LVL 6 Fighter, STR 16, +1 Longsowrd, WF (Longsword), WS (Longsword)
BAB: +6
AB: +11
AC: 25 (Full Plate +1, DEX 12, Tower Shield +1)
Attacks: 1d8+6 (X2), or 20 points per round

Now let's go to LVL 10 and a Large animal (Dire Bear, STR 31)

Druid BAB: +7
AB in WS: +17
AC: 17
Attacks: 2d4+10 (x2) and 2d8+5, or 44 points per round

LVL 6 Fighter, STR 18 (STR +2 item), +1 Shocking Longsword, GWF (Longsword), WS (Longsword)
BAB: +10
AB: +17
AC: 25 (Full Plate +1, DEX 12, Tower Shield +1)
Attacks: 1d8+7+1d6 elec (X3), or 42 points per round. Only slightly less than the Druid, but with a much higher AC.


Incorrect. That's an issue with Wildshape: it doesn't qualify what happens to items that are added after the initial shaping,

Which is where Rule 0 comes into play.


or what happens when you come out of wildshape.

Actually, it does. "Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the druid's feet."


Wildshape's fundamental issue is that it is vague: what, exactly, qualifies "familiarity", in a fashion that means "Each DM will be using a similar field of animals"?

Again, Rule 0, though discussing it with the Druid's player would be recommended. But a general rule would be "what animal could the druid have encountered?" If you are playing mostly in a temporate forested area, polar bears would not work. On the other hand, if you are playing in a polar region, polar bear would be acceptable, but ape would be out.


What, exactly, happens to equipment before, during, and after shifting--does it disappear to the Quasipseudodemielemental Plane of Wildshaping, or is it part of my anatomy now?

"Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form"


Can I wear magical items when in wildshape, assuming I have the proper slots for them? I hear circlets of intellect +2 are all the rage for dire tigers these days.

Again, that is Rule 0.


What happens with ongoing spell effects that change your physiology? "I'm a druid. I cast bite of the werebear and girallon's blessing, and then wildshape into a tiger. Am I a bear-headed, six-legged tiger now?" Maybe this is where bearhounds and owlbears and girallon come from?

Rule 0. (I'm not familiar with the spells, so don't know if there are restrictions on targets.)


If my arm gets sliced off in wildshape, does it come back when I shift back--and if so, is my bracelet of friendship still there?

TheCountAlucard addressed this.


Do I drown in air if my chosen form has the Amphibious special quality and the Aquatic subtype, or does "common sense" reign? After all, I don't get to obtain the special qualities of my new form.

Since the Druid picks their shape, choosing something that can't breathe in air would be stupid.


Do I really need Natural Spell if I turn into a monkey-like creature? After all, alternate form says: "The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components."

Apes can't speak.


Then why did you bother mentioning it?

Because the person above me mentioned Wookies.


It sounds to me like you're trying to set up strawmen.

No, I am addressing the points others are bringing up with real numbers, rather than hypotheticals.


You're thinking those of us who have a problem with wildshape think it can do things beyond RAW.

Rule 0. Players can dream up anything they want, and claiming otherwise is fooling yourself. At some point, the DM has to step in and say "no, you cannot do that."


If you were DM and your druid player turned into an ape then picked up magical gear, how would you handle that?

Gear dropped when shapeshanging does not change size. The ape could not wear the gear since it would not fit.

hamishspence
2008-10-21, 12:10 PM
Parrots can. Stats can be found in Stormwrack, I think.

JBento
2008-10-21, 12:13 PM
So can ravens. And it's not beyond the realm of possibility that they can use their claws for the somatic components. There's a giant raven somewhere, in one of the environment books

hamishspence
2008-10-21, 12:14 PM
3.0: Silver Marches

3.5: Frostburn

It is, however, a magical beast.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-21, 12:14 PM
Rule 0 kerfluffery

A game mechanic that requires Rule 0 to be usable is a broken mechanic. Wildshape requires Rule 0, according to you, to be usable. Therefore, wildshape is broken.

Kesnit
2008-10-21, 12:22 PM
Parrots can. Stats can be found in Stormwrack, I think.

"(The normal sound a wild parrot makes is a squawk, so changing to this form does not permit speech.) "


A game mechanic that requires Rule 0 to be usable is a broken mechanic. Wildshape requires Rule 0, according to you, to be usable. Therefore, wildshape is broken.

Using that argument, the entire game is broken since players can, as I said above, dream up anything.

Starsinger
2008-10-21, 12:22 PM
"The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with." - Highly limiting. You can't just pick a creature out of the MM.

Knowledge: Nature

And even if Knowledge Nature is ruled insufficient since its not hands on familiarity... don't druids have the ability to summon practically anything they can wild shape into?

Kesnit
2008-10-21, 12:24 PM
And even if Knowledge Nature is ruled insufficient since its not hands on familiarity... don't druids have the ability to summon practically anything they can wild shape into?

The description of the spell lists what creatures are summoned.

Tingel
2008-10-21, 12:24 PM
Of course, this method doesn't mesh with real mythology druids who could disguise themselves as animals all day and only come out when they wanted to be seen.
What mythology does this refer to?

Oracle_Hunter
2008-10-21, 12:29 PM
Using that argument, the entire game is broken since players can, as I said above, dream up anything.

Not quite. The argument was:


A game mechanic that requires Rule 0 to be usable is a broken mechanic. Wildshape requires Rule 0, according to you, to be usable. Therefore, wildshape is broken.

Emphasis mine.

For most game mechanics, you can get along just fine without Rule 0-ing them; you only use it on the off chance that a player does something bizarre. Here, you are saying that "what happens to items that are added after the initial shaping" is a Rule 0 issue. Since PCs have lots of gear, and they probably will want to continue to use them after Wildshaping, this is really a basic functional question for Wildshaping. Therefore: broken mechanic.

Another example is the Diplomacy Rules. They're beyond wacky, by RAW.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-21, 12:43 PM
Not quite. The argument was:



Emphasis mine.

For most game mechanics, you can get along just fine without Rule 0-ing them; you only use it on the off chance that a player does something bizarre. Here, you are saying that "what happens to items that are added after the initial shaping" is a Rule 0 issue. Since PCs have lots of gear, and they probably will want to continue to use them after Wildshaping, this is really a basic functional question for Wildshaping. Therefore: broken mechanic.

Another example is the Diplomacy Rules. They're beyond wacky, by RAW.

Exactly. Rule 0 is in place as a stop-gap, a means of the designers saying, "If something happens in your game that shouldn't, you have the right as DM to come up with something." It is not a rug to brush the problems of the game under.

This is a core class' core class feature. It should have no loopholes.

Starsinger
2008-10-21, 12:46 PM
The description of the spell lists what creatures are summoned.

I'm not digging through spell lists for Summon Nature's Ally, let alone looking for any other specialty summons a druid might have access to. Between Summons and Scrying and goodness knows what other tricks, "Must be familiar" is rarely a useful block, unless you're trying to stop a totally alien (In the extraterrestrial and not illegal immigrant sort of way) druid from morphing into a polar bear.

JaxGaret
2008-10-21, 12:51 PM
It was also pointed out that a LVL 6 Druid couldn't shift into a Dire Ape. So let's run the numbers with a Dire Badger, which is the strongest Medium animal I see (STR 14).

The Black Bear and the Crocodile are Medium with 19 Str, though the Bear is faster and has more natural attacks. You were looking only at Dire animals.

Cheetahs and Leopards have 16 Str and 19 Dex as Medium animals, plus the Cheetah has 50 foot movement and a free Trip attempt on any successful attack, and the Leopard has a 20 foot Climb speed and can Pounce for 5 attacks at the end of a charge.

I would probably go with the Leopard, though the Bear and Cheetah are fine choices as well.

Kesnit
2008-10-21, 12:55 PM
Here, you are saying that "what happens to items that are added after the initial shaping" is a Rule 0 issue.

Actuallty, rereading RAW, the Druid could not use gear after shifting, unless they changed into a humanoid monster of the same size as the Druid. No Rule 0 needed.

If a Druid did such a thing, rules do cover that as well. 1 round to WS. (At least) 1 round to pick up gear. At least 1 round to put on gear (6 rounds if the Druid is putting on armor). That's (at least) 3 rounds lost, and all but 1 of those the Druid could be taking AoO's. (WS does not provoke an AoO.)

Fax Celestis
2008-10-21, 12:55 PM
Actuallty, rereading RAW, the Druid could not use gear after shifting, unless they changed into a humanoid monster of the same size as the Druid. No Rule 0 needed.

...according to what, exactly?

Temp.
2008-10-21, 12:55 PM
So let's run the numbers with a Dire Badger, which is the strongest Medium animal I see (STR 14).Let's talk about the Black Bear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bearBlack.htm)... you know, the one you actually hear people mention using on these boards.


Strength 19: Almost definitely higher than the fighter's pre-buffed Strength (assuming stats are generated by the "4d6, drop the lowest" system). If the Fighter Power Attacks, he's going to come out a couple points of damage ahead.
Natural Armor 2: Higher than the Fighter's, but you probably don't wear real armor (not that you couldn't). Call this a mark in the Fighter's favor.
40 ft. Movement: Twice the Fighter's. A weak mark for the Druid.
3 attacks compared to the Fighter's 1: The Druid wins here, period.


With this one class feature, the Druid just about matches the Fighter (with gear and feats). Then we add the Animal Companion, then we add full spellcasting, then we add any feats, abilities, skills the Druid might have picked up along the way. It's not a problem with DMs; it's a clearly borked ability.


That's (at least) 3 rounds lost, and all but 1 of those the Druid could be taking AoO's. (WS does not provoke an AoO.)Why are you counting rounds? Wild Shape has an hour-per-level duration. You do this before you leave your Rope Trick.

monty
2008-10-21, 01:00 PM
Actuallty, rereading RAW, the Druid could not use gear after shifting, unless they changed into a humanoid monster of the same size as the Druid. No Rule 0 needed.

If a Druid did such a thing, rules do cover that as well. 1 round to WS. (At least) 1 round to pick up gear. At least 1 round to put on gear (6 rounds if the Druid is putting on armor). That's (at least) 3 rounds lost, and all but 1 of those the Druid could be taking AoO's. (WS does not provoke an AoO.)

Ok, so it works like this:
Round 1: Wildshape
Round 2: Pick up gear
Round 3: Put on gear
Round 4+: Spend the rest of your adventuring day in wildshape with gear on

How does this make things better again?

Kesnit
2008-10-21, 01:01 PM
Nope. Black Bear is Medium with 19 Str. You were looking only at Dire animals.

Oops. When I looked, I thought it said Large. OK, let's run those numbers.

Druid 6:
BAB: +4
AB: +8
AC: 13
Damage: 1d4+4 (X2) and 1d6+2, or 17 damage per round.

Still less AC and damage than a Fighter.


Cheetahs and Leopards have 16 Str and 19 Dex as Medium animals, plus 50 foot movement and a Climb speed respectively.

BAB: +4
AB: +7
AC: 15
Damage: 1d2+1 (X2) and 1d6+3, or 12 damage per round.


...according to what, exactly?

Two ways to look at it.

1) "Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space...Gear returns to normal size if dropped."

Meaning if the Druid took off their armor and gear before shifting, it would remain their natural size, regardless of the size of the creature they changed into. (BTW, it would take 10 rounds to remove the armor.) Once they shift, they could put it back on, but that would take another 5 rounds.

2) "Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional."

If they didn't take off their gear, it does not drop, just becomes part of them and does not work.


Let's talk about the Why are you counting rounds? Wild Shape has an hour-per-level duration. You do this before you leave your Rope Trick.

6th level Druid couldn't be in WS for an entire adventuring day. They also may or may not be WS-ed when the party stops to rest for the night.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-21, 01:02 PM
Oops. When I looked, I thought it said Large. OK, let's run those numbers.

Druid 6:
BAB: +4
AB: +8
AC: 13
Damage: 1d4+4 (X2) and 1d6+2, or 17 damage per round.

Still less AC and damage than a Fighter.



BAB: +4
AB: +7
AC: 15
Damage: 1d2+1 (X2) and 1d6+3, or 12 damage per round.

You are calculating one attack instead of three (claw/claw/bite) nevermind. Still, answer the question.

JaxGaret
2008-10-21, 01:08 PM
BAB: +4
AB: +7
AC: 15
Damage: 1d2+1 (X2) and 1d6+3, or 12 damage per round.

The Leopard gets two free Rake attacks on a charge, bringing the average damage up to 18.5 if all attacks hit.

The Cheetah gets a free Trip attempt on every successful attack.

We're not saying that a Druid out-melees a Fighter by themselves without buffs, but it is reasonably close. Then you add in the AC, and spells...

Kesnit
2008-10-21, 01:15 PM
The Leopard gets two free Rake attacks on a charge, bringing the average damage up to 18.5 if all attacks hit.

Which is still less than the Fighter, still with lower AC.


The Cheetah gets a free Trip attempt on every successful attack.

The Cheetah did considerably less damage and has a much lower AC than the Fighter.


Then you add in the AC, and spells...

AC actually hurts the Druid. AC would probably be higher in natural form (depending on DEX and armor, of course). But AC 15 or 16 in +1 Hide wouldn't be out of the question.

Weiser_Cain
2008-10-21, 01:15 PM
I have, in my admittedly limited experience, only come across one really tough Druid (in bear form no less) and that was in the middle of a forest while I was soloing as a wizard in nwn(and that was probably the module designer's fault), and I think he had a few levels on me. I still eventually killed him.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-21, 01:17 PM
Two ways to look at it.

1) "Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space...Gear returns to normal size if dropped."

Meaning if the Druid took off their armor and gear before shifting, it would remain their natural size, regardless of the size of the creature they changed into. (BTW, it would take 10 rounds to remove the armor.) Once they shift, they could put it back on, but that would take another 5 rounds.

2) "Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional."

If they didn't take off their gear, it does not drop, just becomes part of them and does not work.

And that interferes with equipment like barding, collars, and horseshoes how?

Kesnit
2008-10-21, 01:26 PM
And that interferes with equipment like barding, collars, and horseshoes how?

I was addressing people asking about the Druid WS-ing and putting their own equipment back on.

The Druid could, of course, carry such items. But they would have to get to the items and have someone put it on them (animals with hands are exceptions).

There is no way to guarentee the Druid would be in WS when the attack occurred. It's possible they would be, but not 100% assured. Even a higher-level Druid could be setting up camp, or asleep (which would remove the need for 10 rounds to take off armor, but not the 5 to put it on).

Temp.
2008-10-21, 01:27 PM
The Cheetah did considerably less damage and has a much lower AC than the Fighter."AC" as in "Animal Companion" as in "that other giant bear with comprable combat abilities to the Fighter--before we take any shared buffs into account."

12 Hours is, for all intents and purposes, an entire adventuring day. There are very few reasons a Druid should revert to humanoid form past level 5. There is plenty of time for allies to put on barding or for the Ape form to put on Large armor (or armor with the Sizing enhancement) out of combat.

JaxGaret
2008-10-21, 01:27 PM
Which is still less than the Fighter, still with lower AC.

The Cheetah did considerably less damage and has a much lower AC than the Fighter.

Yes, but consider that your comparison includes a Fighter with: +1 weapon, +1 armor, +1 shield, and the Druid hasn't spent any money yet.

The Druid is dealing about 75% of the damage of the Fighter, by themselves without equipment or buffs. Then you throw on the AC, which is almost as effective as the Druid in melee, and all of a sudden we're up to dealing 125% of the damage of the Fighter. With about 25% more HP than the Fighter, between the two of them, which partially makes up for the AC difference.

Then the Druid gets spells on top of that.


AC actually hurts the Druid. AC would probably be higher in natural form (depending on DEX and armor, of course). But AC 15 or 16 in +1 Hide wouldn't be out of the question.

AC was referring to the Animal Companion.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-21, 01:30 PM
There is no way to guarentee the Druid would be in WS when the attack occurred. It's possible they would be, but not 100% assured. Even a higher-level Druid could be setting up camp, or asleep (which would remove the need for 10 rounds to take off armor, but not the 5 to put it on).

If your best offense is being in Wildshape, and you can be in Wildshape for upwards of ten hours a day, why WOULDN'T you be in Wildshape all the time? That's like being a fighter and not wearing your full-plate all the time, or being a wizard and not preparing your spells all the time. "Oh, today's not going to be dangerous, so I'll just prep half my regular list." "Oh, today's not going to be dangerous, so I'll just leave my greatsword at home." "Oh, today's not dangerous, so I'll just leave myself in a horrible defensive position by not turning into a bear."

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-10-21, 01:31 PM
The Leopard gets two free Rake attacks on a charge, bringing the average damage up to 18.5 if all attacks hit.


Besides that is doesn't

Rake

A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. Rake attacks are not subject to the usual -4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple.

A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn.
It's surprising how many people miss this.

JaxGaret
2008-10-21, 01:32 PM
Besides that is doesn't

It's surprising how many people miss this.

Oh?10characters


Pounce (Ex)
If a leopard charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.

If it had to start its turn grappling to Rake, then it couldn't charge and rake, as the Pounce ability suggests, now could it?

Cuddly
2008-10-21, 01:34 PM
I've never been in a game with a druidzilla. But that's because none of them played it like a charop druid.

The biggest thing I notice about wildshape, though, is how many spells at levels 6-10, must be devoted to it to make it on par with the DPT of a rogue or fighter. They also have lower AC than the party fighter at those levels. And their to hit is also rather poor, and they have great difficulty with most DR.

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-10-21, 01:40 PM
Oh?10characters



If it had to start its turn grappling to Rake, then it couldn't charge and rake, as the Pounce ability suggests, now could it?

You're semi-right, the pounce ability seems to circumvent the normal restriction on rake. I do believe you need to successfully grapple before you can rake if with pounce though.

now that you mention it


Improved Grab (Ex)

To use this ability, a leopard must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake.

improved grab also circumvents this depending on your interpretation of the above text.

JaxGaret
2008-10-21, 01:43 PM
I've never been in a game with a druidzilla. But that's because none of them played it like a charop druid.

It's playing like a CharOp Druid to use the Bear or Leopard forms? If you're a combat Druid, you use combat forms.

We're not even going into the (entirely legal) better animal forms found in splatbooks.


The biggest thing I notice about wildshape, though, is how many spells at levels 6-10, must be devoted to it to make it on par with the DPT of a rogue or fighter.

Spells are a class feature of the Druid, just like the Fighter's bonus feats. The Fighter also devotes their bonus feats to increasing damage output, no?


They also have lower AC than the party fighter at those levels. And their to hit is also rather poor, and they have great difficulty with most DR.

Yes, they will have lower AC than a Fighter. Though it's close if you use Wild armor or Wildshape into a form that can wear humanoid armor, like an Ape. The to-hit will be a bit lower as well, but the Druid gets more attacks, and its iterative attacks are better, particularly if you take the Multiattack feat.

Note that we're not even taking the AC into account here.

DR is the biggest problem for melee Druids.


You're semi-right, the pounce ability seems to circumvent the normal restriction on rake. I do believe you need to successfully grapple before you can rake if with pounce though.

No, the Pounce ability clearly states that you can make two Rake attacks as part of the full attack. Specific trumps general.

monty
2008-10-21, 01:47 PM
There is no way to guarentee the Druid would be in WS when the attack occurred. It's possible they would be, but not 100% assured. Even a higher-level Druid could be setting up camp, or asleep (which would remove the need for 10 rounds to take off armor, but not the 5 to put it on).

I believe that by level 5, "setting up camp" usually consists of "I cast extended Rope Trick."

And if they're caught unprepared in the middle of the night, how is the druid out of wildshape any worse off than the fighter who doesn't have his armor on, or the wizard who's already used up most of his prepared spells? He's still a full caster with an animal companion. If anything, he's better off in that situation than most classes.

Kesnit
2008-10-21, 01:51 PM
"AC" as in "Animal Companion" as in "that other giant bear with comprable combat abilities to the Fighter--before we take any shared buffs into account."

A 6th lvl Druid could not have a "giant bear." Black bear, yes, but it only has the benefits of a 3rd LVL AC.


12 Hours is, for all intents and purposes, an entire adventuring day.

But encounters do not have to happen during the "adventuring day." You are also assuming the Druid didn't WS, then have to WS into a different shape (for some reason) less than 6 hours later.


There are very few reasons a Druid should revert to humanoid form past level 5.

Except running out of time in WS. Or because the party was setting up camp. Or entering a town where black bears wandering the streets wouldn't be allowed. Or because they are the party healer (not impossible) and someone disallowed Natural Spell.


There is plenty of time for allies to put on barding or for the Ape form to put on Large armor (or armor with the Sizing enhancement) out of combat.

Again, you are assuming the attack comes when the Druid is already WS-ed. This may or may not be the case.


Yes, but consider that your comparison includes a Fighter with: +1 weapon, +1 armor, +1 shield, and the Druid hasn't spent any money yet.

The Druid is dealing about 75% of the damage of the Fighter, by themselves without equipment or buffs.

They may not have buffs.

Bull's STR and the like last 1 min/level and can't be started and stopped at will. Magic Fang is also 1 min/level. Saying Natural Spell adds 1 level means it could be used 3 times a day (and Bull STR twice). Saying Natural Spell adds 2 levels means Magic Fang could be used twice and Bull's STR never. (This is assuming the Druid prepares no other spells in those slots.) With the standard 4 encounters/day, they would have to fight without buffs at least twice.

And the Druid did have to buy things - the Barding, Horseshoes, amulets, armor, etc.


Then the Druid gets spells on top of that.

But the Druid DOESN'T get spells on top of that. The Druid's spells went to the buffs you mentioned above.


If your best offense is being in Wildshape, and you can be in Wildshape for upwards of ten hours a day, why WOULDN'T you be in Wildshape all the time?

I am talking about a 6th LVL Druid, who may not be able (depending on circumstance) to be in WS for 10 hours. That said, I already answered that question.


That's like being a fighter and not wearing your full-plate all the time,

Which they don't. Sleep, etc.


or being a wizard and not preparing your spells all the time.

But Wizards can run out of spells, or have the wrong spell(s) prepared. Hypotheticals are great, but they are just that. There is always a circumstance where the realities of the game will overrule all the "but what if..."


Yes, they will have lower AC than a Fighter. Though it's close if you use Wild armor

Which is +3 and out of reach of a low-to-mid level Druid.


but the Druid gets more attacks,

Depending on the creature and level.

Cuddly
2008-10-21, 01:53 PM
It's playing like a CharOp Druid to use the Bear or Leopard forms? If you're a combat Druid, you use combat forms.

They do. It's just that combat forms at that level aren't as tough as a fighter. 3/4 BAB, more expensive magic items, and suffering from having to make multiple attacks/round. You can't pick up multiattack (as far as I know) until level 6, but most take natural spell then.

Though, the druids I've played with just play the druid as an evocater that turns into an animal. They're attempts playing it as a melee combatant weren't very successful.


Spells are a class feature of the Druid, just like the Fighter's feats. The Fighter also devotes their feats to increasing damage output, no?

You can't use spells all day, though. You either choose to put up a few spells in this fight, or next fight, but not both fights. That, and you have to pass up on some utility spells or the like. When you get higher level, then you have lots of spells to throw around.


Yes, they will have lower AC than a Fighter. Though it's close if you use Wild armor or Wildshape into a form that can wear humanoid armor, like an Ape. The to-hit will be a bit lower as well.

The ape is a very solid shape. Cat shape or dino shape for the pounce is better IF you can get all your attacks off. Otherwise, a charging fighter is going to be doing more damage. We also play with higher point-buy, so the new set of stats a druid gets aren't nearly as important, as the half-orc barbarian is rocking 28 str in a rage, and two-handed power attacking.


DR is the biggest problem for melee Druids.

Yeah. I think it's because both I and my DMs have a habit of using a lot of undead that has turned the druids in out groups into spellcasters.

Eldariel
2008-10-21, 01:54 PM
Yes, they will have lower AC than a Fighter. Though it's close if you use Wild armor or Wildshape into a form that can wear humanoid armor, like an Ape. The to-hit will be a bit lower as well, but the Druid gets more attacks, and its iterative attacks are better, particularly if you take the Multiattack feat.

Just a simple Monk's Belt, or one-level Monk-dip (or a dip in any class that gives Wis to AC) means that a Wildshaped Druid exceeds Fighter AC. And the difference keeps on increasing. And that's before you cast Barkskin. And have an animal companion that's another similar wallop. Oh, and have your spells. We're still not using spells. But we can use 'em all. As a full caster. Do we really need to go through why Druids make Fighters useless again?

Cuddly
2008-10-21, 01:55 PM
I believe that by level 5, "setting up camp" usually consists of "I cast extended Rope Trick."

Only if the wizard has a metamagic rod of extend or the extend spell metamagic feat.

Otherwise everyone wakes up taking 1d6 falling damage at about 3am.

JaxGaret
2008-10-21, 01:57 PM
They may not have buffs.

Bull's STR and the like last 1 min/level and can't be started and stopped at will. Magic Fang is also 1 min/level. Saying Natural Spell adds 1 level means it could be used 3 times a day (and Bull STR twice). Saying Natural Spell adds 2 levels means Magic Fang could be used twice and Bull's STR never. (This is assuming the Druid prepares no other spells in those slots.) With the standard 4 encounters/day, they would have to fight without buffs at least twice.

We're discussing core Druids, not with the Natural Spell alteration. In core, Barkskin is 10 min/level, and Greater Magic Fang is hour/level. Out of core, there are a lot more options for long term buffs.


And the Druid did have to buy things - the Barding, Horseshoes, amulets, armor, etc.

None of which were mentioned above by me. I was comparing a naked Druid to your armed and armored Fighter.


But the Druid DOESN'T get spells on top of that. The Druid's spells went to the buffs you mentioned above.

I mentioned no buffs.


Just a simple Monk's Belt, or one-level Monk-dip (or a dip in any class that gives Wis to AC) means that a Wildshaped Druid exceeds Fighter AC. And the difference keeps on increasing. And that's before you cast Barkskin. And have an animal companion that's another similar wallop. Oh, and have your spells. We're still not using spells. But we can use 'em all. As a full caster. Do we really need to go through why Druids make Fighters useless again?

No, we honestly don't. I was just doing it for old time's sake, I suppose :smallsmile: I haven't participated in a Fighter v. Druid thread in almost a year.

My system mastery is fading like a leaf on the wind, tbh. Though I can bring it now and again. Things like the Monk's Belt on a Bear are what make pro-Fighter types call foul. They're using stuff like Tower Shields and WS in their examples anyway (low-OP), so I figured I wouldn't bring out the big guns.


Which is +3 and out of reach of a low-to-mid level Druid.

Wilding Clasps, then.


Depending on the creature and level.

Like I stated before, if you are a combat Druid, you take combat forms.

monty
2008-10-21, 02:00 PM
Only if the wizard has a metamagic rod of extend or the extend spell metamagic feat.

Otherwise everyone wakes up taking 1d6 falling damage at about 3am.

Metamagic Rod of Lesser Extend: 3000 gp
Rope: 1 gp
Spell Component Pouch: 5 gp
Sleeping safely every night for the rest of your adventuring career: Priceless

Cuddly
2008-10-21, 02:00 PM
There's also the problem with buffing time. A fight begins, and the druid has to spend a round casting a buff. Sure, his animal companion can do something, but in my experience, animal companions are weak. The druid usually doesn't have the cash or spells left over to turn it into "another character."

None-DMM clerics have the same problem.


Metamagic Rod of Lesser Extend: 3000 gp
Rope: 1 gp
Spell Component Pouch: 5 gp
Sleeping safely every night for the rest of your adventuring career: Priceless

Did I stutter?

Kesnit
2008-10-21, 02:10 PM
We're discussing core Druids, not with the Natural Spell alteration. In core, Barkskin is 10 min/level, and Greater Magic Fang is hour/level. Out of core, there are a lot more options for long term buffs.

I was addressing the people who said Natural Spell should be nerfed and gave those as examples.

But still, at 6th level, Barkskin is only an hour and could - at most - be cast 3 times. (Again, that leaves off wanting/needing to prepare other spells.) GMF would be an all day (or mostly all-day, anyway) buff.


None of which were mentioned above by me. I was comparing a naked Druid to your armed and armored Fighter.

Mea culpa...

That said, Bull's STR could still only be cast 3 times a day (for a total of 3 hours), again assuming no other spells were prepared. And the Druid would still have had to pay for either the Ape's Large armor or the barding/horseshoes/bridle/whatever.


I mentioned no buffs.

I know. I just mentioned a common buff that would be beneficial to a melee druid with a melee AC.

Temp.
2008-10-21, 02:14 PM
A 6th lvl Druid could not have a "giant bear." Black bear, yes, but it only has the benefits of a 3rd LVL AC.

The bear is a bear; having the benefits of third-level Druid's base companion means absolutely nothing. It has higher strength than the Fighter and more attacks. It will benefit from every one of your self-buffs. That the benefits of being a Druid Animal Companion are delayed does not mean that the AC isn't a serious battlefield threat.


You are also assuming the Druid didn't WS, then have to WS into a different shape (for some reason) less than 6 hours later. Exactly. With Natural Spell, the Druid has to leave its "Bear" form about as often as the Fighter has to leave its "humanoid form."

Even in city adventures, the party probably has some idea of when things are going to turn to violence. In those situations, a Bear eating someone's face is probably no less socially acceptable than a human shoving a spear into someone's gut.



But the Druid DOESN'T get spells on top of that. The Druid's spells went to the buffs you mentioned above.
You're comparing an unbuffed, gearless Druid to a fully equiped fighter and your claiming that the Druid doesn't have any spells because he's used them all buffing?


[edit:]VVV@Cuddly--Stormrage from the SpC. Freaking awesome spell.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-10-21, 02:17 PM
If your best offense is being in Wildshape, and you can be in Wildshape for upwards of ten hours a day, why WOULDN'T you be in Wildshape all the time? That's like being a fighter and not wearing your full-plate all the time, or being a wizard and not preparing your spells all the time. "Oh, today's not going to be dangerous, so I'll just prep half my regular list." "Oh, today's not going to be dangerous, so I'll just leave my greatsword at home." "Oh, today's not dangerous, so I'll just leave myself in a horrible defensive position by not turning into a bear."

Well... unlike the fighter or the wizard, the druid loses his ability to speak, and causes peasants to flee in terror when he has his "defenses" up.

So yeah, I can imagine some situations when the druid might not want to walk around all day as a Dire Bear :smalltongue:

Cuddly
2008-10-21, 02:18 PM
What's the druid spell that puts a sphere of wind walls around you, makes you immune to wind effects, gives you a fly speed, and lets you shoot lightning bolts from your eyes?

JaxGaret
2008-10-21, 02:19 PM
They do. It's just that combat forms at that level aren't as tough as a fighter. 3/4 BAB, more expensive magic items, and suffering from having to make multiple attacks/round. You can't pick up multiattack (as far as I know) until level 6, but most take natural spell then.

I agree that a Wildshaped Druid by themselves without any buffs is no match for an equal level Fighter in melee. It is close enough, though, that the AC and spells put them over the top.

You can make a decent argument for taking Multiattack at level 6 if you are playing a combat Druid - you're not going to be casting lots of spells in combat anyway, you can wait till level 9 to grab Natural Spell, then you'll have more slots to play around with.


Though, the druids I've played with just play the druid as an evocater that turns into an animal. They're attempts playing it as a melee combatant weren't very successful.

Right. It's the same perception issue of Wiz/Sorc = blaster, Cleric = healbot. If you don't play to a class' strengths, you're not going to be as capable.


You can't use spells all day, though. You either choose to put up a few spells in this fight, or next fight, but not both fights. That, and you have to pass up on some utility spells or the like. When you get higher level, then you have lots of spells to throw around.

Of course. It's still extra power/utility.


The ape is a very solid shape. Cat shape or dino shape for the pounce is better IF you can get all your attacks off. Otherwise, a charging fighter is going to be doing more damage. We also play with higher point-buy, so the new set of stats a druid gets aren't nearly as important, as the half-orc barbarian is rocking 28 str in a rage, and two-handed power attacking.

Higher point-buy lets the Druid buy 18s in both Wis and Con, dump Str and Dex, and put the rest into Cha and Int as they see fit.


Yeah. I think it's because both I and my DMs have a habit of using a lot of undead that has turned the druids in out groups into spellcasters.

Could be.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-21, 02:29 PM
Well... unlike the fighter or the wizard, the druid loses his ability to speak, and causes peasants to flee in terror when he has his "defenses" up.

So yeah, I can imagine some situations when the druid might not want to walk around all day as a Dire Bear :smalltongue:

Pshaw. Talkin's for bards.

The Rose Dragon
2008-10-21, 02:30 PM
Or for Truenamers.

Seeing how they have nothing better to do with their time. :smalltongue:

Saph
2008-10-21, 02:31 PM
I've played a Druid all the way from level 3 to level 17, so I'm going to chime in on this one. :) I noticed as I was going up the levels that a Druid's melee abilities go through several phases.

At levels 5-7, a Druid's animal forms are nowhere near a match for a well-built melee class. The Black Bear is a good second-rank fighter, but it's not a primary tank - 1d4 damage is just too low for a primary attack. Anything with any kind of DR will laugh at you, and anything with a good attack bonus will beat you to a pulp. You're better off with summons, and only going into melee yourself as backup or as a last resort.

At levels 8-11, things change. Now you have the Dire Lion and Brown Bear, both of which hit hard enough to hurt, and enough spells to buff yourself into an effective fighter. You can hold the front line at this point.

At level 12+, you finally start to overshadow the melee characters, due mainly to the Dire Bear and its 31 Strength. Note that a well-built melee class should still be about equal to you in straight power - it's your animal companion and spells that put you over the top.

This is assuming no cheese on either side - obviously if the Druid and Fighter are tricking themselves out to ridiculous levels, there's not really any point comparing them anymore.

- Saph

JaxGaret
2008-10-21, 02:36 PM
Yeah, that pretty much agrees with my analysis, Saph.

The Druid really needs the AC and spells to keep up with the Fighter in melee at the low Wildshape levels. Later on they're more of their own powerhouse.

Cuddly
2008-10-21, 02:41 PM
I agree that a Wildshaped Druid by themselves without any buffs is no match for an equal level Fighter in melee. It is close enough, though, that the AC and spells put them over the top.

But only in some fights, if the druid wants to use any of his spells for utility. And I find that players don't have the perfect knowledge that charop discussion assumes they do, so they put up a buff at a time they may not have wanted to. They also might get jumped, and end up lower on the initiative list, especially if they're in bear morph and the fighter got improved initiative, which means that they're going to spend a round or two buffing. By the time it gets around to the druid, the fighter might have already done 100+ damage (assuming 2 attacks per round for 3 rounds, averaging 16 damage/hit). More if the wizard hastes, the fighter gets a critical, etc.

One thing I've noticed about fighters (and anything else without spells, for that matter) is that they're very useful in a straightforward fight for about the first three rounds. If the fight lasts more than three rounds, something's up, and they can't bring anything else to bear.


Right. It's the same perception issue of Wiz/Sorc = blaster, Cleric = healbot. If you don't play to a class' strengths, you're not going to be as capable.

Definitely. I've never actually played, or run, someone who has played to the druid's strength. I think my first experience with someone playing a druid was in 3.0. The guy never cast spells, never used wildshape. He had a pet goat he kept in town, and spent all his time throwing sling stones from a sling that turned them into spikes. He was only useful on a critical.

And playing a combat druid at levels 6 through 10 means devoting EVERYTHING to being a combatant. At least, to keep up with a rogue or fighter meant for high damage outputs. A battle that you deem not worth putting up a buff on you or your animal is a battle you're not doing a whole lot in.


Of course. It's still extra power/utility.

Depends which way you use them, though. A lot of times, you can prep a utility spell you never use (though turning it into an animal can be helpful). And for all casters, there is a direct trade off between utility and combat ability. Fighters & barbarians can put out damage very, very reliably at low levels, given that they didn't spend all their feats on toughness.


Higher point-buy lets the Druid buy 18s in both Wis and Con, dump Str and Dex, and put the rest into Cha and Int as they see fit.

It doesn't change the melee types having more strength and/or dex than the wildshaped druid, though. And I think power attack is where fighters really catch up. And if you're outside of core, leap attack.

[edit]
Just saw Saph's post. My experience with druids in the pre-level 12 ranges matches that almost perfectly. The better forms typically aren't such a big deal in our games at that point, due to the rest of the melee rocking very solid physical scores.

ImperiousLeader
2008-10-21, 02:48 PM
Question: What about the PH2 Shapeshift Druid? That seems to me to be better balanced and I find I prefer the unlimited shifting.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-21, 02:49 PM
Question: What about the PH2 Shapeshift Druid? That seems to me to be better balanced and I find I prefer the unlimited shifting.

It's much much better from a balance perspective, more thematically appropriate since the druid can shift from level 1, and takes Natural Spell entirely out of the picture.

JaxGaret
2008-10-21, 02:56 PM
It's much much better from a balance perspective, more thematically appropriate since the druid can shift from level 1, and takes Natural Spell entirely out of the picture.

Agreed, but you do lose the versatility aspect of Wild Shape - though that is one of its balance problems in the first place.

The PHBII Shapeshift variant is a fine fix IMO.

Temp.
2008-10-21, 03:04 PM
It's much much better from a balance perspective, more thematically appropriate since the druid can shift from level 1, and takes Natural Spell entirely out of the picture.
And it's a hell of a lot easier, too. No more tracking your stats and your animal companion's stats, and every animal in any book's stats. Just one set of numbers and one set of straight-forward modifiers.

The swift transformation and all-day duration also appeals to players who fancy themselves optimizers, but who don't really know how; they're usually the ones who have the hardest time taking nerfs.

Zeful
2008-10-21, 04:20 PM
"The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with." - Highly limiting. You can't just pick a creature out of the MM.

Knowledge: Nature

Just to point out something. The Knowledge: Nature skill doesn't list "Animal Familiarity" as one of it's functions. In fact "Familiarity" isn't a game-defined term at all. Meaning that it's impossible within the context of RAW for a druid to Wildshape into anything at all. Just like Rope Trick (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ropeTrick.htm) requires a casting of Planeshift to use at all (where in the spell description does it say you can enter the extradimensional space?) according to the RAW.

Jack Zander
2008-10-21, 04:26 PM
Well it does say you can climb the rope to reach the extradimensional space. And if you can reach it, that kinda implies you can enter.

Akisa
2008-10-21, 08:01 PM
Not to mention who's guarding the bags of holding if so one simple dispel magic could mean everyone falling out the sky taking damage as appropriate.

Keld Denar
2008-10-21, 08:12 PM
Not to mention who's guarding the bags of holding if so one simple dispel magic could mean everyone falling out the sky taking damage as appropriate.

Basically, once you pull the rope up into the hole, there is nothing outside to suggest the presence of the Rope Trick. Unless someone was concentrating on Detect Magic or had Arcane Sight up while they were strolling by, they wouldn't be able to even detect the presence of the hole. They could hit it with an area dispel by accident, but that would be pretty random. Maybe a battle between Drow and Svirfneblin breaks out beneath your Rope Trick while adventuring in the Underdark, and one of the Svirfneblin priestesses tries to dispel a couple of the globes of darkness and nips the party too....hmmm, interesting idea.

EDIT: I never thought of it that way. You'd have to leave your Bags of Holding outside, since you couldn't bring them into the Rope Trick due to stacking of extradimensional spaces. Wouldn't want to go boom, would we?

monty
2008-10-21, 08:19 PM
EDIT: I never thought of it that way. You'd have to leave your Bags of Holding outside, since you couldn't bring them into the Rope Trick due to stacking of extradimensional spaces. Wouldn't want to go boom, would we?

In 3.5, that only applies to specifically Bag of Holding and Portable Hole, as far as I know.

Zeful
2008-10-21, 08:24 PM
In 3.5, that only applies to specifically Bag of Holding and Portable Hole, as far as I know.

"Something bad" is supposed to happen when you bring another extradimensional space into a rope trick, but there are no rules as such. Also there are no rules against nesting bags of holding/portable holes/HHHs within themselves.

monty
2008-10-21, 11:46 PM
"Something bad" is supposed to happen when you bring another extradimensional space into a rope trick, but there are no rules as such. Also there are no rules against nesting bags of holding/portable holes/HHHs within themselves.

So the "multiple extradimensional spaces = bad" mechanic requires Rule 0 to work? We all know what that means.