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dspeyer
2008-10-20, 11:13 PM
Running an air force takes more than some idiots whose only desire is to 'kick the tire and light the fire.' It takes dedicated support.
-- Jesse Wood, 1633, Eric Flint


RETURN OF THE GESTALT BUILD CHALLENGE VIII: Best Buffers

This one's simple: build a character who excels at empowering teammates. Focus on power, versatility and endurance.

"Gestalt Build Challenge" General Rules

We'll follow Duke of URL's old rules plus with a few minor changes.

For numeric attributes with progressions (such as BAB and saves) first determine at each level which progression the attribute follows, then count how many levels of each progression you have, then index into the progressions, then add them together. This means that a fighter 1 / sorceror 19 // wizard 20 has 1 level of good BAB and 19 of bad, giving +1 and +9 respectively for a total BAB of +10. Similarly, a character with 20 different marshal classes gets a base fort save of +12, not +40. It's not addressed in the gestalt or multiclassing rules, but this tends to make the most reasonable builds.

Disregard the clause about multiclassing penalties. We could never figure out how to apply it anyway.

If you are using multiple templates, you may only do so in a way which makes sense with what the template means. For example, you may only use one template that represents one parent being of a different race unless your base race is one where more-than-two parent reproduction is normal.

Well known cheese (pun-pun, omnificer, etc.) is banned.

Here are Duke of URL's old rules, for those who have forgotten them. Spoilered because they're long


Unless otherwise specified in the specific challenge, the following rules and guidelines are always in effect:
Gestalt builds; 28-point buy; use any WOTC 3.5 product (including Dragon magazine) except where noted (only 3.0 products with an official upgrade to 3.5 are allowed)
Make all builds to ECL 20. However, indicate the minimum ECL the build is playable at (the level at which all LA and/or racial HD, if applicable, are accounted for) and label any level that indicates a "power break" where the build has a significant jump in power level. Provide a detailed description of how the build operates.
Any race with a listed level adjustment is allowed (no racial progressions from Savage Species, please). LA and HD each apply to one side of the gestalt; you may include LA and HD on the same side as each other, or on other sides. No LA buyoff. LA is applied before racial HD, which must be paid off before class levels on that side. Examples: LA X / RHD Y / class Z / ... // class A / ... -OR- LA X / class Y / ... // RHD A / class B / ...
Multiclass at will, but see "voting".
Up to two flaws are allowed, but see "voting".
Templates are allowed, but see "voting".
Voting: Upon the close of entries for each challenge, members of the forum may vote in-thread for the build that best represents the goals set out by the challenge. The voting criteria should consist of: Functionality: How well does the build do in its primary role as specified in the challenge? Weaknesses: Does the build have any glaring weaknesses that can be exploited? Playability: How much of the 1-20 level range can the build be played at and be effective? Creativity: Clever use of races, classes, and/or feats that may not be "typical" choices Cheese: Minimizing the number of cheese points Using flaws (1 point each) Ignoring mutliclassing penalties -- some DMs actually do enforce this in gestalt (1 point each) Single-level dips that would require several pages of justification to RP properly (1 point each) Templates that would require several pages of justification to RP properly (1 point per +1 LA) Attempting to use more than one PrC at any given level (1 point each) Attempting to use "dual progression" PrCs (1,000,000 points each) Over-dependence on items (1 point per indispensable item) Over-dependence on Diplomacy or Use Magic Device skills (1,000,000 points each)

Talic
2008-10-21, 02:36 AM
Party booster, eh? Lemme see if I can fill a booster seat.

Jack_Simth
2008-10-21, 03:25 AM
The Divine
Human Wizard-20//Cleric-20 (Domains Undeath and Planning)
Flaws: Shaky, Noncombatant
Feats:
Planning Domain: Extend Spell
Undead Domain: Extra Turning
1: Persistent Spell,
HB: Divine Metamagic(Persistent Spell)
Flaw: Extra Turning
Flaw: Extra Turning
3: Southern Magician
Wiz-5: Reach Spell
6: Extra Turning
9: Extra Turning
Wiz-10: Craft Rod
12: Extra Turning
15: Extra Turning
Wiz-15: Chain Spell
18: Extra Turning
Wiz-20: Craft Staff

Stats:
Base:
Str 8, Dex 8, Con 10, Int 17, Wis 17, Cha 8
Level boosts: 4, 12, to Int, 8 and 16 to Wis; 20 to Charisma
Items: As many Nightsticks from Libris Mortis as you can lay your hands on (and starting at 10th, you can Craft them), plus Con, Dex, and Charisma boosters, and a Strand of Prayer Beads (for the caster level boost). None of these items are necessary, but they help.

Method:
Use DMM(Persistent Spell) on every party-level buff you can find (Recitation, [Alignment] Aura, Vigorous Circle, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Elation, Prayer, and so on). Also make sure to make liberal use of Reached, Chained Magic Vestments and Chained Greater Magic Weapon, as well as using Reach Spell and Chain spell to DMM (Persist) Touch range spells such as Freedom of Movement, Death Ward, and Greater Heroism. Extend Heroes' Feast. Thanks to Southern Magician, you can even DMM(Persist) a Reached Greater Heroism. With no items, at 20th, casting Eagle's Splendor on yourself for a few extra turning attempts (Charisma 12), you can get five DMM(Persistent Spell) spells in this way (36 turning attempts).

With no items at all, at 20th, you're looking at:
(DMM(PS)) 1) Recitation: +3 Luck to AC, Saves, and Attack rolls (if they worship the same diety you do) and +2 Luck to same otherwise.
(DMM(PS)) 2) Vigorous Circle: Fast Healing 3
(DMM(PS)) 3) Holy Aura (or any of the equivalents): +4 Deflection to AC, +4 Resistance to saves, SR 25 vs. Opposed alignment spells and spells cast by opposed alignment creatures, and a nasty surprise for those who make melee attacks against your party. (any of the other-alignment variations of this spell will work); also has the same mental protections as the Protection From line of spells.
(DMM(PS))4) Righteous Wrath of the Faithful: +3 Morale to Attack and Damage with weapons, plus a bonus attack (as per Haste)
(DMM(PS)) 5) Elation: +2 Morale to Strength and Dex, +5 foot move. (DMM(PS))
Extended Heroes' Feast: +1 Morale (doesn't stack with Righteous Wrath of the Faithful) to Will saves and attack rolls, Immunity to Fear and Poison
Magic Vestments: +5 AC (enhancement, may not stack)
Greater Magic Weapon: +5 Attack/Damage (enhancement, may not stack)

Do this, and you're looking at (assuming everyone in the party worships your same deity):
Attack: +12 (One + from the Dex/Str boost of Elation; some of this won't stack with normal party equipment)
Damage: +9 (+9.5, for those using 2-handed weapons; +1 or +1.5 due to the Strength bonus on Elation; some of this won't stack with normal party equipment)
Saves: +7 Fort, +8 Ref, +8 Will (some of this will not stack with normal party equipment)
AC: +13 (+18, if they have a shield that will work with Magic Vestments - some of this won't stack with normal party equipment)
Fast Healing 3, Immunity to Fear and Poison

With Nightsticks and Charisma boosters, it gets better (Freedom of Movement and Death Ward for everybody, also possibly Greater Heroism).

Ganurath
2008-10-21, 03:46 AM
I'll throw something together tomorrow, I need rest for now. I can guarantee, though, you'll need more than one hand to count how many levels the build works on.

Talic
2008-10-21, 04:46 AM
I'm not sure something as simple as DMM Persist has the depth needed for this. I mean, you could have at least gone incantatrix 10 as well, and threw more free metamagic in.

No, I think I'll focus on something that goes farther. Not so much DMM. Perhaps something with Druid or Marshal in it. Perhaps even Dread commando. Not sure. Meh, I'll think of something. Probably Cleric // ToB (White Raven) / Dread Commando / Something

Chineselegolas
2008-10-21, 06:10 AM
Tempting to make something despite the trouble I have making casters.

Most likely use the War Weaver class from Heroes of Battle for the battle starts, move action to trigger four buff spells.

Jack_Simth
2008-10-21, 06:13 AM
Gee... I notice everyone is "talking" about a better build, but nobody is showing one.

Adumbration
2008-10-21, 06:52 AM
Gee... I notice everyone is "talking" about a better build, but nobody is showing one.

Gee... I notice how some people are "bitching" about other people planning their builds, but are not contributing to this thread.

Anyway, if I have time, I might whip up a Marshal with some Dragon Shaman and/or Bard thrown into the mix.

Kesnit
2008-10-21, 08:59 AM
The Divine
Human Wizard-20//Cleric-20 (Domains Undeath and Planning)
Flaws: Shaky, Noncombatant
Feats:
Planning Domain: Extend Spell
Undead Domain: Extra Turning
1: Persistent Spell,

Persistent spell requires Extend Spell. That said, you can just give up 1 Extra Turning nd pick up Extend.

While workable, this build takes 2 points for flaws and "as many points as you can find" for the nightsticks.

Glimbur
2008-10-21, 09:10 AM
Persistent spell requires Extend Spell. That said, you can just give up 1 Extra Turning and pick up Extend.

Planning Domain gives Extend spell.

Kesnit
2008-10-21, 09:25 AM
Planning Domain gives Extend spell.

Oops, missed that.

Jack_Simth
2008-10-21, 05:18 PM
Persistent spell requires Extend Spell. That said, you can just give up 1 Extra Turning nd pick up Extend.

While workable, this build takes 2 points for flaws and "as many points as you can find" for the nightsticks.
What Glimbur said, plus:
The Nightsticks are not critical to the build - they just make it better.

The listing I put at the bottom for buffs? That's assuming just enough wealth to purchase a Holy Symbol, a Spell Components Pouch, and the focuses for his spells (some of which are mildly expensive).

JaxGaret
2008-10-21, 06:05 PM
I'm going to go with the simple build Wizard5/Warlock10/War Weaver5//Archivist18/Warlock2. The levels are pretty flexible for what you take when, really.

Via the Imbue Item ability of the Warlock, you have access to virtually every lowest level buff spell in the game as an Archivist, which you can then weave into your buffing tapestries for the whole party to share.

You can do a lot more with this build without the 12 levels in Warlock, but I put it in there in case anyone complained about Archivist spell harvesting.

Do I need to post a complete build? It's pretty self-explanatory. Beyond having the requisite skills and Enlarge Spell to qualify for War Weaver, you can do pretty much anything you want to in terms of race, feat, and equipment selection.

golem1972
2008-10-21, 06:32 PM
I like the Sublime Re-Weaver (thanx caelic).

Good aligned Changeling
Archivist 20 // Bard 8 / War Weaver 5 / Recaster 5 / Sublime Chord 2
Words of Creation (for Inspire Courage op)
Dark Knowledge, Bardic Music, War Weave for buffs most spell lists (Bard, Wiz/Sorc, Divine), possibly Dragonfire (Inspiration? (AFB)).

If I must have flaws, I guess Master Linguist and Nymphs Kiss (feats nice but not necessary for build) or a couple op feats (metamagic).

For cheese: grab your band and head to hewards hall for unlimited extra bardic music. Don't forget to pick up Lyric Spell to turn those music uses into spellslots. Doable by level 6 with ease.

Talic
2008-10-21, 11:58 PM
Gee... I notice everyone is "talking" about a better build, but nobody is showing one.

I intend to build something different, however, 14 hour workdays, and the need for sleep seem to be conflicting with your expected timetable for my production of gestalt builds. I'm truly sorry that this is the case.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-10-22, 09:26 AM
Arnie Buffenstein

"I'm gonna BUFF... YOU up"

Cloistered Cleric/Geomancer//Wiz/War Weaver/Archmage

Basic Concept
DMM cannot be applied to Arcane spells. War Weaver can ONLY put ARCANE spells in his Weave. Fortunately, with Geomancer, I can have spells be either arcane or divine, depending on how I want to use them.

To save on turn attempts, most beneficial buffs 4th level and under go in the Weave, except Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestments.

DMM Chain Spell will be the DMM we will be utilizing this day. Why not Persist? Most of the spells we want will have a duration of hours/level anyways, so why bother? Even spells with 10 Min/Level have a duration of over 13 hours, which we can call a day.

*NOTE* This build is NOT dependent on Nightsticks, all turn attempts will be generated through feats and CHA mod.

Buffs of note:

GMW (use Archmage's Arcane Reach, then use Geomancer to consider it a Divine spell to DMM Chain)
Magic Vestments (ditto)
Mind Blank (DMM Chain, don't need to reach it)

Buffs in the Weave:
Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, Displacement, and Polymorph

Follow up with Haste and if you're up against a tough fight, Quicken Haste and DMM Holy Aura.

monty
2008-10-22, 06:48 PM
Half-Celestial Succubus Favored Soul 9 / Sacred Exorcist 4 / Contemplative 7 // RHD 6 / LA 10 / Marshal 1 / Bard 1 / Sublime Chord 2
Str 14 Dex 14 Con 22 Int 16 Wis 16 Cha 38

{table]Level | Class 1 | Class 2 | Feat
1 | Favored Soul 1 | RHD 1 | Educated
2 | Favored Soul 2 | RHD 2
3 | Favored Soul 3 | RHD 3 | Extend Spell
4 | Favored Soul 4 | RHD 4
5 | Favored Soul 5 | RHD 5
6 | Favored Soul 6 | RHD 6 | Persistent Spell
7 | Favored Soul 7 | LA 1
8 | Sacred Exorcist 1 | LA 2
9 | Sacred Exorcist 2 | LA 3 | Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)
10 | Sacred Exorcist 3 | LA 4
11 | Sacred Exorcist 4 | LA 5
12 | Contemplative 1 | LA 6 | Extra Turning
13 | Contemplative 2 | LA 7
14 | Contemplative 3 | LA 8
15 | Contemplative 4 | LA 9 | Extra Turning
16 | Contemplative 5 | LA 10
17 | Contemplative 6 | Marshal 1
18 | Contemplative 7 | Bard 1 | Alternative Source Spell
19 | Favored Soul 8 | Sublime Chord 1
20 | Favored Soul 9 | Sublime Chord 2[/table]
Level 20 numbers:
HP 14d8+6d6
BAB +13
Base saves: Fort +10 Ref +9 Will +12
AC 21 (+2 dex, +9 natural) touch 12, flat-footed 19
Turn Undead 24/day

Equipment:
Light armor, Charisma-boosting stuff, and as many nightsticks as you can get your hands on

How a half-celestial succubus came into existence is a mystery. Odds are a wizard did it. In any case, it's not explicitly against the rules.

Basically, persist your three (more, with items) best buffs every morning, and toss out others before and during combat as needed, along with some bardic music. Besides that, just try not to die. With damage reduction, spell resistance, a bunch of immunities/resistances, and slippery mind, you'll be a tough target. Pick up an enchanted mithral breastplate and get Scintillating Scales cast on you, and you'll have a decent touch AC and regular AC.


Since the most effective aura and spells will depend largely on who else is in the party, I won't make any suggestions for those.

dspeyer
2008-10-23, 12:52 AM
Race: Pixie
Build: sorceror 6 / incantrix 8 / sorceror 2 / guildmage 4 // la 4 / favored soul 10 / sacred exorcist 1 / favored soul 4
Feats: quicken, reach, iron will, chain, rapid meta, split ray, co-operative spell, dmm(reach), dmm(chain), extend
Stats: STR: 6 DEX: 18 CON: 10 INT: 14 WIS: 18 CHA: 24

Casts as a 20th level sorceror and a 16th level favored soul. The spontaneous classes, both CHA based, should give plenty of spells per day. The spells known should cover most good buffs, and spellpool can pick up the obscure things up to level 6.

The heart of the build is metamagic. Reach spell turns any touch spell into a ray, and chain spell delivers that ray to the whole party. With incantrix improved metamagic, this costs 3 levels total. If the spell is divine, it costs 3 turn undeads. Split ray gives a cheaper (2 levels) way to hit just 2 allies. It's kind of like war weaver, but less limited.