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NephandiMan
2008-10-21, 02:11 AM
I recently became interested in the Tome of Battle (yeah, I know - slowpoke is sloooooooow), and I was wondering how the unarmed swordsage variant (monk's unarmed damage progression in exchange for no armor proficiency) stacks up against the much-maligned monk. I'm assuming that since it's a ToB class, it's better than a core melee character, but what I'm wondering is how much better. Specifically, assuming all other things are equal, is it a great enough improvement to make playing an unarmed melee character worthwhile?

I mean mechanically, of course - while it's good to be reminded now and then that I should play whatever I find enjoyable, the thing I find most enjoyable when playing a melee character is effectively dealing damage in close-range combat.

RTGoodman
2008-10-21, 02:14 AM
...I was wondering how the unarmed swordsage variant (monk's unarmed damage progression in exchange for no armor proficiency) stacks up against the much-maligned monk.

To answer your question, I would just point out the sheer number of posts that happen every time someone starts a monk thread that are variants of "Monks suck - play and Unarmed Swordsage instead."

Basically, the general opinion is that the Unarmed Swordsage is what the Monk should have been. You'll have good damage between your unarmed strikes and your various boosts and strikes, you've got a good selection of stealth, acrobatic, and straight-up melee abilities through access to various disciplines, and overall you're just a really cool class.

Edge of Dreams
2008-10-21, 02:16 AM
Well, the thing to understand is that most melee damage dealers get way more damage output from bonus damage than they do from the actual weapon die.

Fighter/Barbarian - str score and feat bonuses
Rogue/Scout/etc - sneak attack and similar bonus damage
Monk - bigger weapon die

Oops, see there, that's why the monk is a poor damage dealer, even with flurry (not going to go into details now)

Swordsage, on the other hand, gets bonus damage from manuevers and stances comparable to a rogue or better, with lots of other fun stuff thrown in to boot.

The second big deal about Swordsage is that for a monk (and to lesser degree, Fighter, Barb, etc.) to get the most out of their damage potential, they need to full-attack, which means no moving. Swordsage and the rest of ToB's classes, however, get lots of great manuevers that either use a swift action to boost your next attack or are a standard action which includes one or more attack rolls. This means you can move and do lots of damage in the same turn, adding tons of manueverability to your character, and making things a lot less "Your turn." "Okay, I full attack." over and over and over.

elliott20
2008-10-21, 02:33 AM
think of it this way

better skill points
no reliance on a full attack with obviously diminishing returns
actual ability to fully utilize your faster speed
the ability to, without really much effort, squeeze out a build that can deal a minimum of over 400+ damage. (there are builds that can easily cross over into 6 digits)

lord_khaine
2008-10-21, 03:36 AM
no reliance on a full attack with obviously diminishing returns

i think you might be operating with a sligtly nonstardard version of diminishing return here, monks actualy get more our of their full attack as they hit the points where flurry improves.


actual ability to fully utilize your faster speed
but the unarmed swordsage isnt faster than a standard human, unless he is using maneuvers or boosts to increase it.

elliott20
2008-10-21, 03:48 AM
What I mean is that a monk's flurry/full attack still has the problem of all iterative attacks. The first 2 might hit, but afterwards it's a crap shoot.

and yes, I was referring to the possibility of Swordsage boosting. but beyond that, monks still have the speed edge. Of course, it's easier for SSs to make use of faster speeds....

lord_khaine
2008-10-21, 04:09 AM
What I mean is that a monk's flurry/full attack still has the problem of all iterative attacks. The first 2 might hit, but afterwards it's a crap shoot.

and yes, I was referring to the possibility of Swordsage boosting. but beyond that, monks still have the speed edge. Of course, it's easier for SSs to make use of faster speeds....
well, at level 11 and higher monks do have 3 attacks at full bonus, and usualy the one at -5 has at leas reasonable chance of hitting.

and i am not sure i can agree on that its easyer for SS to make use of a higher speed, basicaly in combat you are either moving towards an enemy, or trying to get away from one, in both cases high speed helps the same.

elliott20
2008-10-21, 04:36 AM
sure, both SS and monks have to close in on their target, but the difference is in this: SS takes on movement action, launches a single attack can do a lot of damage thanks boosts, stances, etc.

monks close in with a move action. can throw one punch.

the difference here is just efficiency of actions.

Hunter Noventa
2008-10-21, 06:08 AM
I played an unarmed swordsage, albeit witht he monk's unarmed attack progression and speed bonuses. It was very fun to hagve her literally shove her fist through someone's ribcage.

If you don't get your DM to give you those things, you'll defintiely want to pick up superior unarmed strike. Other thanthat though, it's a solid way to be unarmed. You might want to try and find a way to make your damage overcome DR other than manuvers and Shards of Grantie though.

Burley
2008-10-21, 08:00 AM
In my current campaign, one of my players wanted to play a Gestalt Fighter//Monk. I suggested he trade Fighter for Swordsage, and focus on unarmed attacks. I let him use the Swordsage's AC bonus ability (light or no armor) without denying his monk abilities. It gives him a little bit more stamina (which he'll need), and doesn't limit him so much on loots.

I have a feeling that it's gonna be a good time for him. I'm hoping he'll reflavor the attacks, though. I totally want him to shout out "Wolf Fang Fist!"
Ain't gonna happen, though. :smallfrown:

Oslecamo
2008-10-21, 08:05 AM
sure, both SS and monks have to close in on their target, but the difference is in this: SS takes on movement action, launches a single attack can do a lot of damage thanks boosts, stances, etc.

monks close in with a move action. can throw one punch.

the difference here is just efficiency of actions.

Untill you play a chaos monk(variant from dragon magazine) and dip for lion totem barbarian and jump over your oponent whou tought he was far away enough to be safe unleashing a storm of blows. Then you'll know what beating someone to death with your fists feels like.

Darrin
2008-10-21, 09:03 AM
Specifically, assuming all other things are equal, is it a great enough improvement to make playing an unarmed melee character worthwhile?


Short Answer: Yes.

Supererogatory Elucidation: While the unarmed swordsage variant isn't a perfect cure-all for the much-maligned monk, it does fix a lot of its problems. For example:

* "Pounce" and/or move+full attack: While this is available with certain maneuvers (re: pouncing charge, quicksilver motion), the biggest difference is swordsages can move and then use a standard-action strike that does something interesting, be it extra damage, a de-buff, or provide some benefit. For full-on pounce, swordsages have a little easier access than monks since they have no multi-class restrictions and aren't required to be lawful so a dip into Spirit Lion Barbarian is fairly easy. Even if you don't care about pounce, you at least have something *useful* to do if you can't make a full-attack.

* Flurry: Although swordsages don't get flurry, they get maneuvers that give them extra attacks. They can also easily pick up something like flurry with Snap Kick or TWF. And they can cancel TWF penalties to zero with Bloodclaw Master at ECL 8 a level before monks get no penalties on their flurry. And if they really want flurry, they can pick it up from Shou Disciple or Disciple of the Eye.

* Weapon enchantments: The swordsage has two significant advantages over the monk. First, swordsages are proficient with gauntlets, and can use enchanted gauntlets while still enjoying their better unarmed strike damage. And second, a wide variety of maneuvers provide benefits similar to weapon enchantments, such as bypassing DR, ability damage, etc.

* Medium BAB: Swordsages start with Weapon Focus for free, so at 1st level they are still on-par with most full BAB melee types. Although this doesn't last, the swordsage makes up for the lower BAB with gobloads of maneuvers. Some of these are easier to hit with (touch attack, target considered flat-footed, skill check instead of attack roll, etc.), some do extra damage, and some are just friggin' cool.

* Skills: Class skills are almost identical, but the swordsage has enough skill points to take advantage of them and be a decent skill-monkey.

* Class abilities: Just about anything a monk can do, the swordsage could do about four levels ago with a maneuver. And swordsages don't get stuck with useless fluff like Timeless Body or Perfect Self. As a capstone ability, "dual boost" is unique and extremely useful.

* Multi-classing: No lawful restriction, and no multi-classing restriction, so a swordsage can pick up other classes/PrCs and still go back to being a swordsage. Also, since non-swordsage classes still advance initiator level by 1/2, not being a swordsage doesn't hurt you quite so badly.

Swordsages still do face some problems:

* MAD: Swordsages aren't any less MAD than monks, but they can dump one combat-related stat or Wis and still be effective with the right feats/maneuvers. And they've still got more skill points to fall back on, as well as all those maneuvers.

* Recovery Mechanic: At mid- to high-levels, you pretty much have to take Adaptive Style to last through longer combats.

* Feat-starved: No bonus feats and with Adaptive Style almost required, the monk may come out ahead on feats (particularly if you're using variant fighting styles from UA or the martial monk variant from Dragon #310). On the other hand, the swordsage has all those interesting maneuvers to play with.

* Slower: Swordsage doesn't get the monk's movement bonus. He can make up for this with some stances/maneuvers. On the other hand, the swordsage doesn't exactly need all that extra movement, since he won't be running away in shame nearly as often.

Chronos
2008-10-21, 03:50 PM
Basically, the general opinion is that the Unarmed Swordsage is what the Monk should have been.I'm not even all that fond of Tome of Battle, and I still think this. "Mystic fighting style completely unlike any standard fighter" should mean more than just "a ton of attacks each of which hits less often".

RTGoodman
2008-10-21, 04:30 PM
I'm not even all that fond of Tome of Battle, and I still think this. "Mystic fighting style completely unlike any standard fighter" should mean more than just "a ton of attacks each of which hits less often".

Ooh, and talking to animals! And running really fast! :smallwink:

elliott20
2008-10-21, 08:53 PM
really, this thread could just as easily become a "what's wrong with the monk design" thread.

Draken
2008-10-21, 10:28 PM
* Weapon enchantments: The swordsage has two significant advantages over the monk. First, swordsages are proficient with gauntlets, and can use enchanted gauntlets while still enjoying their better unarmed strike damage. And second, a wide variety of maneuvers provide benefits similar to weapon enchantments, such as bypassing DR, ability damage, etc.

I fail to understand why this keeps showing up.

Simple Weapons
-Unarmed Attacks
-- Gauntlet
-- Unarmed Strike

Gauntlet: This metal glove protects your hands and lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armors (except breastplate) come with gauntlets.

Strike, Unarmed: A Medium character deals 1d3 points of nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike, which may be a punch, kick, head butt, or other type of attack. A Small character deals 1d2 points of nonlethal damage. A monk or any character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat can deal lethal or nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes, at her option. The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that
give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls. An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat (page 102) to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike.

This is all on the PHB's equipment section.

Now these is from the glossary at the end of the book:

Unarmed Attack: A melee attack made with no weapon in hand.

Unarmed Strike: A successful blow, typically dealing nonlethal damage, from a character attacking without weapons. A monk can deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike, but others deal nonlethal damage.

----

So semantic aside, what do we see here? That the gauntlet is, first and foremost, considered an unarmed attack.

This falls on the same strange assumption that monks are not proficient with their unarmed attacks. I believe that is the entire point of the Improved Unarmed Strike feat is it not? :smallconfused:

Talya
2008-10-22, 07:23 AM
Why do people have to go through this whole argument again every few months?

Monks are broken except as NPC mooks. They are exceeded in their uselessness only by the CW Samurai. There are fundamental design flaws in the monk class that make them almost completely unusable as an effective single-classed PC.

An unoptimized swordsage will pick up a monk and punt it farther than said monk could run in a round. Are there ways to optimize a monk and make a few levels of it useful? Absolutely. Don't confuse that with being a decent class. The monk needs a hell of a lot of houseruling to make it an adequate base class.



Draken: It's not proficiency that is the problem. I'll go into that in a future post if nobody ninjas me first, but monks cannot flurry with gauntlets.

Edge of Dreams: unarmed swordsages also get monk unarmed damage progression, which is fun.

Starbuck_II
2008-10-22, 07:31 AM
So semantic aside, what do we see here? That the gauntlet is, first and foremost, considered an unarmed attack.

This falls on the same strange assumption that monks are not proficient with their unarmed attacks. I believe that is the entire point of the Improved Unarmed Strike feat is it not? :smallconfused:

Nope.

Look at monk prioficiencies.
Look at Unarmed Strike on table.
Remember that those without racial HD are not auto-proficient with any of their own natural attacks (druid gives you proficiency it days).

Now, what is an unarmed strike? Simple or natural?

If Simple, not Monk
If Natural, not Monk.

If not monk, maybe.

Now, let us go into Improved Unarm Strike:
What does it do?
No attack of opportunity.
No penalty to make damage lethal.

Wait, no proficiency granted... Monks don't have Unarmed Strike listed in proficiencies...monks are not proficient.

Ergo, Monks take non-proficiency penalties (-4 to hit) but not unarnmed strike penallties (Non-lethal to lethal -0 and not provoke).

Btw, Customer service says it was an error that unarmed strike wasn't listed in proficiencys. But then again, they give 50% reliable answers.

Project_Mayhem
2008-10-22, 07:51 AM
Nope.

Look at monk prioficiencies.
Look at Unarmed Strike on table.
Remember that those without racial HD are not auto-proficient with any of their own natural attacks (druid gives you proficiency it days).

Now, what is an unarmed strike? Simple or natural?

If Simple, not Monk
If Natural, not Monk.

If not monk, maybe.

Now, let us go into Improved Unarm Strike:
What does it do?
No attack of opportunity.
No penalty to make damage lethal.

Wait, no proficiency granted... Monks don't have Unarmed Strike listed in proficiencies...monks are not proficient.

Ergo, Monks take non-proficiency penalties (-4 to hit) but not unarnmed strike penallties (Non-lethal to lethal -0 and not provoke).

Btw, Customer service says it was an error that unarmed strike wasn't listed in proficiencys. But then again, they give 50% reliable answers.

to be fair ... if any DM ever tried to enforce that, they'd be getting slapped.

Curmudgeon
2008-10-22, 08:02 AM
I agree that unarmed Swordsages are mostly what Monks should have been. Add in Snap Kick as a superior replacement for the weak Two-Weapon Fighting feat tree, and you're in OK shape. Loss of the Monk's speed enhancement is the biggest downside. A Monk can use Spring Attack and never end up in range of a melee counterattack; a Swordsage can't.

Eldariel
2008-10-22, 08:42 AM
I agree that unarmed Swordsages are mostly what Monks should have been. Add in Snap Kick as a superior replacement for the weak Two-Weapon Fighting feat tree, and you're in OK shape. Loss of the Monk's speed enhancement is the biggest downside. A Monk can use Spring Attack and never end up in range of a melee counterattack; a Swordsage can't.

They're in charge distance for all but 20'-moving characters. Also, they can't enhance their movement with Haste or similars, since it's enhancement bonus. So even that's not so amazing (others can get +30' without trouble making spring attacking monk an easily reachable target) - the bonus is much less valuable as much of the benefit comes from just Haste, a spell just about any high level melee combatant wants on him all the time.

Darrin
2008-10-22, 08:48 AM
Loss of the Monk's speed enhancement is the biggest downside. A Monk can use Spring Attack and never end up in range of a melee counterattack; a Swordsage can't.

Spring attack isn't worth it. You'll never get a full attack with spring attack, the best you can hope for is sink half a dozen feats and maybe get that dual strike or two-weapon pounce or whatever it is. Also, to consistently drop back far enough to get outside of a normal human's charge range, you need at least +40' speed, which a monk doesn't get until around ECL 12.

If a swordsage wants to attack and then jump away, he can shadow stride at ECL 9, or shadow blink at ECL 13. I'm not sure a swordsage would really be missing the speed bonus all that much.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-10-22, 09:08 AM
Monk has Flurry, Swordsage has Raging Mongoose Strike (and Pouncing Strike to be able to close into Melee from range and still make a full attack). Swordsage also has Time Stands Still to do an 'uber flurry' which doubles the number of attacks in one round (which stacks with Raging Mongoose which gives you an extra 4 attacks)

Winner on raw damage output: Swordsage

Now, let's talk defense. Monks get Wis to AC. So do Swordsages. Monks get a bonus to AC every 4 levels. Swordsages get Baffling Defense to make a skill check to avoid an attack. Swordsage's bonus to AC specifically stacks with light armor, like Mithral Chain Shirt (that has no dex penalty, so does not matter if you are proficent with it or not) which can be further enchanted.

Winner on defensive: Swordsage

Now then, Monks get some pretty insane speeds, no doubt, but Swordsages, though the Shadow Hand discipline, can effectively Dimension Door around, which has greater versitility, if not as long range. Swordsage also gets access to Balance on the Sky (airwalk) and Dance of the Spider (spider climb) as stances (always on).

Winner on maneuverability: Swordsage (monk wins raw speed until Swordsage gets Shadow Blink to DD 50' as a swift action, then move from there)

Overall Winner: Swordsage

Curmudgeon
2008-10-22, 09:29 AM
Spring attack isn't worth it. You'll never get a full attack with spring attack, the best you can hope for is sink half a dozen feats and maybe get that dual strike or two-weapon pounce or whatever it is. No, you just need Snap Kick to get in two unarmed strikes each Spring Attack. (Ignore Bounding Assault/Rapid Blitz; that's really only a feat tree for Fighters.) If you're thinking of the Spring Attack prerequisites, you can make a couple of substitutions to help the build:
Expeditious Dodge (or some other Dodge substitute) also satisfies the feat prerequisites. Desert Wind Dodge, Midnight Dodge -- pick the replacement that works best for you.
Buy Mobility as an armor enhancement. Never spend a feat when you can spend gp instead.
So you've got 3 feats total (<whatever> Dodge, Spring Attack, and Snap Kick) and one armor enhancement.

In general, you won't be finishing off too many enemies with Spring Attack because of the limited number of attacks. But against enemies that are just too strong for you to go toe-to-toe with, Spring Attack is the slow but safe choice.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-10-22, 09:33 AM
No, you just need Snap Kick to get in two unarmed strikes each Spring Attack. (Ignore Bounding Assault/Rapid Blitz; that's really only a feat tree for Fighters.) If you're thinking of the Spring Attack prerequisites, you can make a couple of substitutions to help the build:
Expeditious Dodge (or some other Dodge substitute) also satisfies the feat prerequisites. Desert Wind Dodge, Midnight Dodge -- pick the replacement that works best for you.
Buy Mobility as an armor enhancement. Never spend a feat when you can spend gp instead.
So you've got 3 feats total (<whatever> Dodge, Spring Attack, and Snap Kick) and one armor enhancement.

In general, you won't be finishing off too many enemies with Spring Attack because of the limited number of attacks. But against enemies that are just too strong for you to go toe-to-toe with, Spring Attack is the slow but safe choice.

Buy any kind of armor, and your monk bonus to AC powers down instantly. Best way to gimp a Monk's AC? Throw some armor on him! That also shuts down his Flurry and his faster speed as well!

Riffington
2008-10-22, 10:24 AM
In my current campaign, one of my players wanted to play a Gestalt Fighter//Monk. I suggested he trade Fighter for Swordsage, and focus on unarmed attacks. I let him use the Swordsage's AC bonus ability (light or no armor) without denying his monk abilities. It gives him a little bit more stamina (which he'll need), and doesn't limit him so much on loots.

I have a feeling that it's gonna be a good time for him. I'm hoping he'll reflavor the attacks, though. I totally want him to shout out "Wolf Fang Fist!"
Ain't gonna happen, though. :smallfrown:

Wouldn't it be simpler to just make it a Gestalt Fighter/Unarmed Swordsage? The fighter feats can all go to monk-type feats. The BAB and HD would improve. And you wouldn't have to handwave the armor thing.

Talya
2008-10-22, 11:13 AM
Wouldn't it be simpler to just make it a Gestalt Fighter/Unarmed Swordsage? The fighter feats can all go to monk-type feats. The BAB and HD would improve. And you wouldn't have to handwave the armor thing.

Gestalt Fighter//Swordsage would probably only be surpassed in hand-to-hand melee by Gestalt Warblade//Swordsage. :)

kamikasei
2008-10-22, 12:13 PM
Gestalt Fighter//Swordsage would probably only be surpassed in hand-to-hand melee by Gestalt Warblade//Swordsage. :)

Especially if you let Carmendine Monk and/or Kung-Fu Genius apply to Swordsages...

Eldariel
2008-10-22, 12:25 PM
Would be prudent to include some Barbarian. Strength is good!

NephandiMan
2008-10-22, 03:00 PM
Why do people have to go through this whole argument again every few months?

In this case, it was the fact that I never really paid much attention to melee threads. But it certainly wasn't my intention to start an argument on the relative merits of the monk and the swordsage; although, as I said, I never paid much attention to melee threads, I did pay enough to realize that there's a consensus on this board that swordsage is better than monk. My question was only whether the advantage was significant enough to make playing an unarmed melee character worthwhile. I know it won't match a full caster, but how does it stack up against other melee classes?

And now I think I have my answer: it would at least be worth trying. Even if I can't match the other damage dealers blow-for-blow, I'll never want for interesting and useful things to do. Thank you, everyone.

Talya
2008-10-22, 03:49 PM
In this case, it was the fact that I never really paid much attention to melee threads. But it certainly wasn't my intention to start an argument on the relative merits of the monk and the swordsage; although, as I said, I never paid much attention to melee threads, I did pay enough to realize that there's a consensus on this board that swordsage is better than monk. My question was only whether the advantage was significant enough to make playing an unarmed melee character worthwhile. I know it won't match a full caster, but how does it stack up against other melee classes?

And now I think I have my answer: it would at least be worth trying. Even if I can't match the other damage dealers blow-for-blow, I'll never want for interesting and useful things to do. Thank you, everyone.


That wasn't targeted at you.

Let's put it this way -- rating melee characters (any non "pure-spellcaster), monks are near the rock bottom of the power scale. Swordsages are near the top.

Curmudgeon
2008-10-22, 04:34 PM
Buy any kind of armor, and your monk bonus to AC powers down instantly. You can add Mobility to Bracers of Armor; check out the rules in Arms and Equipment Guide and Magic Item Compendium. That's what I was referring to. A Monk or unarmed Swordsage without Bracers is a punching bag rather than an opponent: too easy to hit.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-10-22, 04:41 PM
You can add Mobility to Bracers of Armor; check out the rules in Arms and Equipment Guide and Magic Item Compendium. That's what I was referring to. A Monk or unarmed Swordsage without Bracers is a punching bag rather than an opponent: too easy to hit.

Unarmed Swordsage can save a LOT of money by taking a Mithral Chain Shirt (which does not shut down ANYTHING), vs a Monk who has to shell out a bunch of money, PLUS hope the GM lets him get away with an obscure optional rule from a 3.0 book.

monty
2008-10-22, 05:08 PM
On the other hand, the swordsage doesn't exactly need all that extra movement, since he won't be running away in shame nearly as often.

I think this summarizes the swordsage's superiority fairly well.

Curmudgeon
2008-10-22, 05:44 PM
Unarmed Swordsage can save a LOT of money by taking a Mithral Chain Shirt (which does not shut down ANYTHING) ... unless the extra 12 lbs. puts you into a new encumbrance category, in which case it makes a huge difference.

vs a Monk who has to shell out a bunch of money, PLUS hope the GM lets him get away with an obscure optional rule from a 3.0 book. What's your problem here? This is no more obscure than any other rule (rather less actually, as it's highlighted prominently in a sidebar), and it's no more optional than any rule from Tome of Battle. Check page 4 of your 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide, which states that 3.0 material that isn't in conflict with newer stuff is still valid for 3.5 play. Plus Magic Item Compendium reiterated that Bracers of Armor function the same as regular armor for enhancements, specifically regarding armor augment crystals.

If you prefer to go with a 12.5X heavier mithral chain shirt, that's fine. But I don't understand why you're so vehemently opposed to Bracers of Armor; they work just fine, also.

monty
2008-10-22, 06:08 PM
... unless the extra 12 lbs. puts you into a new encumbrance category, in which case it makes a huge difference.

You're not carrying a weapon, and you should have a high strength. If that 12 pounds bumps you to a medium load, you're doing something wrong.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-10-22, 06:39 PM
A +5 Bracers of Armor is 25,000, wheras a +1 Mithral Chain Shirt only costs about 5k. That's a LOT of money. Then, if you're wanting to put an additional enhancements on it... I can't even FIND the Mobility Enhancement, but let's say it's a +1, that puts the cost for the Mithral Chain Shirt to about 8k, and the Bracers to 36k. It gets progressively worse the more enhancements you put on it.

I can think of a LOT of things I can spend 20k-28k on...

like 3k on a Handy Haversack to make sure I don't get into encumberance by storing all my stuff in an extradimensional space.

Frosty
2008-10-22, 08:57 PM
Push comes to shove, you can always ask the Wizard to cast Greater Mage Armor on you instead for a tasy +6 to AC.

NephandiMan
2008-10-23, 01:40 AM
That wasn't targeted at you.

Let's put it this way -- rating melee characters (any non "pure-spellcaster), monks are near the rock bottom of the power scale. Swordsages are near the top.

I didn't think it was targeted at me, but as the person who started this thread, I do feel somewhat responsible for the contents.

Also, thank you for your nice, succinct summary.

Curmudgeon
2008-10-23, 05:42 AM
You're not carrying a weapon, and you should have a high strength. If that 12 pounds bumps you to a medium load, you're doing something wrong. Who says you're not carrying a weapon? Unarmed strikes don't work at distance. A great crossbow kicks butt at distance, but it also weighs 14 lbs.

Gear adds up. If you're lucky, treasure adds up even faster. It's good to keep well below the weight limit. Metal armor is both obvious at a glance and vulnerable to rust attacks. Bracers of Armor are discreet.

Is this the best choice for everyone? Obviously not. But it's a good choice for some.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-23, 06:14 AM
Who says you're not carrying a weapon? Unarmed strikes don't work at distance. A great crossbow kicks butt at distance, but it also weighs 14 lbs.

Gear adds up. If you're lucky, treasure adds up even faster. It's good to keep well below the weight limit. Metal armor is both obvious at a glance and vulnerable to rust attacks. Bracers of Armor are discreet.

Is this the best choice for everyone? Obviously not. But it's a good choice for some.I never have a problem with characters and encumbrance unless they're a caster. Past level 5, I view a HHH as standard gear for anyone. Also, Bracers of Armor aren't worth it ever. Pay the grand for a Pearl of Power instead and get Mage Armor cast on you. Heck, getting it as an Eternal Wand is cheaper than the Bracers.

Eldritch_Ent
2008-10-23, 08:00 AM
If you're an unarmed swordsage and carrying a crossbow instead of using ranged maneuvers, or letting whoever's better at ranged in your group handling it if you have no way of getting up there, or simply don't have an at-will item of flight on, *you're doing it wrong*.

JeminiZero
2008-10-23, 08:13 AM
if you have no way of getting up there, or simply don't have an at-will item of flight on


The cheaper alternative to an item of flight would be something that grants you the Bloodwind spell, which lets you treat your unarmed strikes as thrown weapons with a range of 20 ft (thats right, you can throw elder mountain hammer as a ranged attack, hello Tarrasque). Its a level 1 spell, and a custom magic item that gives it to you as a permanent effect costs something like 8k gp.

Curmudgeon
2008-10-23, 11:37 AM
Also, Bracers of Armor aren't worth it ever.
Standard Bracers of Armor grant up to +8 armor bonus, and the rules don't make such items Epic until the total AC bonus is over +10. Mage Armor only gives +4 to AC.
Mage Armor can't have enhancements like Mobility added to it, nor armor augment crystals. Bracers of Armor can.
Mage Armor can be dispelled. Bracers of Armor can only be rendered temporarily inert by a targeted Dispel Magic, and only if the caster has line of sight to the Bracers -- which sleeves can block.

Pay the grand for a Pearl of Power instead and get Mage Armor cast on you. A Pearl of Power won't help you if you're not the one who cast the spell, so you'd be giving away that Pearl to an arcane spellcaster and dependent on them casting Mage Armor on you every day.

Keld Denar
2008-10-23, 11:49 AM
A Pearl of Power won't help you if you're not the one who cast the spell, so you'd be giving away that Pearl to an arcane spellcaster and dependent on them casting Mage Armor on you every day.

And whats wrong with that? It is a team game. Your standard BDF is gonna rely on the wizard/cleric in the party to cast GMW on his weapon to save him cash on enchanting it with enhancement bonuses, so he can focus on +equivalent enhancements like Holy or Collision. I see no difference between this and asking your party wizard to share his Mage Armor with you. Its generally courtious not to encroach upon the effectiveness of others by asking the wiz to memorize an extra Mage Armor for you, so buying him a PoP1 solves the issue because then he spends another 12 seconds during the normal morning buff sequence to power you up, and it costs him nothing.

Bracers of Armor are ONLY worth it if you use them to load up on extra armor enhancements, or you are forbidden from wearing armor. Its generally more cost effective to get your armor bonuses from actual armor, because it starts at a higher base number. That said, you could have like, +1 Death Ward Energy Immunity chain shirt, a +1 Death Ward Energy Immunity buckler, and +1 Death Ward Energy Immunity bracers to get 3 uses/day of these features. The armor from the bracers wouldn't stack with your chain shirt, but you'd get the other things just the same.

The thing thats broken about Bracers of Armor pricing is that they start with 0 AC, and all the AC bonus come from adding enhancements. That means you are paying (bonus^2)*1000 for the AC you get, rather than starting at 4-5 AC and paying up from there. Even if you use expensive base armor, such as mithril, it still doesn't affect the price of the enhancements which scale quadratically in price. So you end up paying a TON more at higher levels for the same amount of protection.

And regardless, spending all of your captial on AC is a foolish endevor anyway, since most things at high levels are gonna hit you whether you want them to or not. And if they find they can't hit you reliably? They'll go munch on your squishier friends first.

Talya
2008-10-23, 11:53 AM
[LIST=1]
Standard Bracers of Armor grant up to +8 armor bonus, and the rules don't make such items Epic until the total AC bonus is over +10. Mage Armor only gives +4 to AC.


+6 for greater mage armor (level 3 spell) actually, but your point is still valid.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-10-23, 06:56 PM
Standard Bracers of Armor grant up to +8 armor bonus, and the rules don't make such items Epic until the total AC bonus is over +10. Mage Armor only gives +4 to AC.
Mage Armor can't have enhancements like Mobility added to it, nor armor augment crystals. Bracers of Armor can.
Mage Armor can be dispelled. Bracers of Armor can only be rendered temporarily inert by a targeted Dispel Magic, and only if the caster has line of sight to the Bracers -- which sleeves can block.
A Pearl of Power won't help you if you're not the one who cast the spell, so you'd be giving away that Pearl to an arcane spellcaster and dependent on them casting Mage Armor on you every day.

+8 Bracers of Armor cost 64k, and INCLUDE enhancement bonuses (like Mobility), so the more enhancement mods you put on it, the LESS you get.

Using a +1 Mithral Chain Shirt, you save a BUNCH of money, and can give that pearl of power to your CLERIC to cast Magic Vestments on your armor, boosting it up to +9, which is BETTER than bracers of armor can EVER get, PLUS still have enhancements on TOP of it by purchasing +1 of xyz, then casting MV on it.

Also, depending on how your GM rules Mage Armor (as counting for AbChamp or not), if you give that 1st level Pearl of Power to a caster with Abjurant Champion levels, then that +4 turns into a +9, which also beats your bracers of armor.

Let's face it, man. Bracers of Armorare not worth it for anything not a monk, because monks get screwed on armor. They cost WAY more than an equivelant bonus on Mithral Chain Shirt, and even IF your Mithral Chain Shirt gets suppressed, or you walk into an AMF, it STILL grants +4 armor bonus, unlike your Bracers, which shut down completely.

Cuddly
2008-10-23, 07:27 PM
A Pearl of Power won't help you if you're not the one who cast the spell, so you'd be giving away that Pearl to an arcane spellcaster and dependent on them casting Mage Armor on you every day.

Much like you'll become reliant on the spell caster for teleporting, planar travel, flying, knowledge of most of the foes you fight, and resilience to hostile environments.

Talya
2008-10-23, 07:35 PM
+8 Bracers of Armor cost 64k, and INCLUDE enhancement bonuses (like Mobility), so the more enhancement mods you put on it, the LESS you get.

Using a +1 Mithral Chain Shirt, you save a BUNCH of money, and can give that pearl of power to your CLERIC to cast Magic Vestments on your armor, boosting it up to +9, which is BETTER than bracers of armor can EVER get, PLUS still have enhancements on TOP of it by purchasing +1 of xyz, then casting MV on it.

Also, depending on how your GM rules Mage Armor (as counting for AbChamp or not), if you give that 1st level Pearl of Power to a caster with Abjurant Champion levels, then that +4 turns into a +9, which also beats your bracers of armor.

Let's face it, man. Bracers of Armorare not worth it for anything not a monk, because monks get screwed on armor. They cost WAY more than an equivelant bonus on Mithral Chain Shirt, and even IF your Mithral Chain Shirt gets suppressed, or you walk into an AMF, it STILL grants +4 armor bonus, unlike your Bracers, which shut down completely.


This is all academic, anyway. I've never played in a campaign where the DM let you buy any random item you chose over a few thousand gold anyway...and I really don't want to be. The "Let's go shopping for any item we want!" approach is not condusive to keeping player power-levels in check. I suppose if you have a really good (and diligent) crafter in your party, it might become relevant...

Cuddly
2008-10-23, 07:42 PM
This is all academic, anyway. I've never played in a campaign where the DM let you buy any random item you chose over a few thousand gold anyway...and I really don't want to be. The "Let's go shopping for any item we want!" approach is not condusive to keeping player power-levels in check. I suppose if you have a really good (and diligent) crafter in your party, it might become relevant...

How do you spell cop out? Is it hyphenated?

Riffington
2008-10-23, 07:50 PM
The cheaper alternative to an item of flight would be something that grants you the Bloodwind spell, which lets you treat your unarmed strikes as thrown weapons with a range of 20 ft (thats right, you can throw elder mountain hammer as a ranged attack, hello Tarrasque). Its a level 1 spell, and a custom magic item that gives it to you as a permanent effect costs something like 8k gp.

If your DM allows that one, ask if you can get a Command-word-activated item of Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer...:smallyuk:

Cuddly
2008-10-23, 07:57 PM
If your DM allows that one, ask if you can get a Command-word-activated item of Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer...:smallyuk:

Or a ring of Truestrike :smallyuk:

arguskos
2008-10-23, 08:01 PM
Or a ring of Truestrike :smallyuk:
Or a Spartan Laser, while you're there. :smalltongue: /bandwagon

-argus

Frosty
2008-10-23, 08:04 PM
Does Blood Wind actually allow you to use Maneuvers at range?

Starbuck_II
2008-10-23, 08:20 PM
Does Blood Wind actually allow you to use Maneuvers at range?

Hmm, in a full attack unarmed strike or natural weapons can be used as thrown weapons with 20 foot range increment.

So not unless using the throwing Prc in ToB.

JeminiZero
2008-10-23, 08:24 PM
Does Blood Wind actually allow you to use Maneuvers at range?

Well, lets see, Spell compendium describes Bloodwind as:



The subject can take a full attack action to use all of its natural weapons or unarmed strikes as if they were thrown weapons with a 20-foot range increment. The subject gestures as if making a melee attack, but the result of the attack affects a target within range.


Hm, so it only works with full attack actions. I suppose that rules out Elder Mountain hammer, but you can still use it with the Full attack action Maneuvers (Boosts, especially the Tiger Claw/Desert Wind, and the Stance of Clarity)

FMArthur
2008-10-23, 09:16 PM
Man... I just remembered how much of an ******* I was to our party's Monk about a year ago. I was playing an Unarmed Swordsage, and openly mocked his impotent self-preservation-focused abilities often. The only thing I can say for myself was that I didn't actively try to upstage him, and didn't upstage him at all outside of battle, despite being able to. The lesson my party took from this is that 'ToB is broken', probably associating it with the smug confidence I displayed as my Swordsage all the time. Monks just plain can't compete with Swordsages; one's in the big league, and one still misses the ball in T-ball league. :smallfrown:

Cuddly
2008-10-23, 09:29 PM
Hm, so it only works with full attack actions. I suppose that rules out Elder Mountain hammer, but you can still use it with the Full attack action Maneuvers (Boosts, especially the Tiger Claw/Desert Wind, and the Stance of Clarity)

I don't know of any maneuvers that lets you use ranged weapons.
"As if they were thrown weapons".
Yup, pretty sure that's not going to work.

JeminiZero
2008-10-23, 09:50 PM
I don't know of any maneuvers that lets you use ranged weapons.
"As if they were thrown weapons".
Yup, pretty sure that's not going to work.


Stance of Clarity grants you 2 full attack actions regardless of weapon. Dancing/Raging Mongoose grant you extra attacks with any weapon on both hands, not necessarily melee weapons.

So I would still say that Bloodwind can be used with Maneuvers. Not all maneuvers, to be sure, but enough of them so that the Swordsage isn't entirely helpless at range.

Keld Denar
2008-10-23, 10:26 PM
Stance of Clarity grants you 2 full attack actions regardless of weapon. Dancing/Raging Mongoose grant you extra attacks with any weapon on both hands, not necessarily melee weapons.

So I would still say that Bloodwind can be used with Maneuvers. Not all maneuvers, to be sure, but enough of them so that the Swordsage isn't entirely helpless at range.

I believe its called "Time Stands Still" and yes, you can use it with ranged attacks. Same with both Mongooses. That's it though.

monty
2008-10-23, 10:43 PM
Same with both Mongeese.

I like it better this way.

Talya
2008-10-23, 11:05 PM
And if all else fails, Fax's Falling Star homebrew martial discipline can't be used enough in TOB games. Read it, use it.

elliott20
2008-10-23, 11:31 PM
Fax's usually a good source of good homebrews.

JeminiZero
2008-10-24, 01:02 AM
I believe its called "Time Stands Still" and yes, you can use it with ranged attacks. Same with both Mongooses. That's it though.

Yes, it was Times stands still.

One with Shadow turns you incorporeal so that your ranged attacks are ranged touch attacks. Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip also can be used, and combos well with Times stand Still.

You can in fact stack Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip, One with Shadow, and Times Stand Still for a nasty ranged attack. Spend the next round recharging all 3, and you can effectively throw this out every other round.

Aquillion
2008-10-24, 01:09 AM
Don't forget that Bracers of Armor (on a class that can't wear body armor) also wastes a body slot. Admittedly, not a hugely valuable one, but paying a huge amount of money and wasting a slot for something an Unarmed Swordsage can get cheaply elsewhere is a kind of big disadvantage.

...hey, wait a sec. Can I place armor enhancements on my relatively cheap +1 Bracers of Armor, then place other armor enhancements on my actual armor-armor, and have both sets of enhancements apply? (Obviously, the +1 to AC doesn't stack with my real armor, but that's not important.) Because of the way plusses are calculated, dividing your armor's enhancements up like that could save you a lot of money, not to mention letting you get over +10 in armor enhancements pre-epic.

NephandiMan
2008-10-24, 01:24 AM
@^

I'm pretty sure they would still all count as enhancement bonuses to armor, and hence not stack with one another.

Keld Denar
2008-10-24, 01:57 AM
Don't forget that Bracers of Armor (on a class that can't wear body armor) also wastes a body slot. Admittedly, not a hugely valuable one, but paying a huge amount of money and wasting a slot for something an Unarmed Swordsage can get cheaply elsewhere is a kind of big disadvantage.

...hey, wait a sec. Can I place armor enhancements on my relatively cheap +1 Bracers of Armor, then place other armor enhancements on my actual armor-armor, and have both sets of enhancements apply? (Obviously, the +1 to AC doesn't stack with my real armor, but that's not important.) Because of the way plusses are calculated, dividing your armor's enhancements up like that could save you a lot of money, not to mention letting you get over +10 in armor enhancements pre-epic.

Yea, that works. Just like I mentioned in one of my previous posts, you could infact get +1 armor, +1 shield, and +1 bracers all with useful enhancements like Death Ward and Energy Immunity, giving you multiple uses per day of these lifesaving enchancements. Likewise, you could get something expensive like fortification on bracers, and then get something else really expensive, like freedom, on your armor. Etc...

kamikasei
2008-10-24, 02:33 AM
@^

I'm pretty sure they would still all count as enhancement bonuses to armor, and hence not stack with one another.

I'm assuming he meant special abilities costing +x equivalent rather than +x enhancement bonuses.

NephandiMan
2008-10-24, 04:26 AM
I see...that's actually a pretty ingenious way to save money.

Darrin
2008-10-24, 07:10 AM
...hey, wait a sec. Can I place armor enhancements on my relatively cheap +1 Bracers of Armor, then place other armor enhancements on my actual armor-armor, and have both sets of enhancements apply? (Obviously, the +1 to AC doesn't stack with my real armor, but that's not important.) Because of the way plusses are calculated, dividing your armor's enhancements up like that could save you a lot of money, not to mention letting you get over +10 in armor enhancements pre-epic.

The best way to spam up your AC is multiple Defending weapons. A standard suit of armor could have two +1 defending gauntlets, +1 defending armor spikes, and maybe even two +1 defending spiked bucklers without going into the argument about whether you can activate defending weapons stored in your backpack. 5 x 4300 = 21500ish GP, a bit cheaper than 25150 GP for +5 armor.

Or were we talking about a monk?
Bracers of Armor (+1, 1000 GP), Amulet of Natural Armor (+1, 2000 GP), Dusty Rose Ioun Stone (+1, 5000 GP), Ring of Force Shield (+2, 8500 GP) = 16500 GP.

As far as placing armor enhancements on a wondrous item like Bracers of Armor? I'd say no, follow the guidelines for wondrous items and calculate the cost as if it were a spell effect as per Table 7-33 in the DMG (p. 285).

Riffington
2008-10-24, 07:19 AM
The best way to spam up your AC is multiple Defending weapons.

This only works if you use the weapons in question (thus making your Full Attack into "Improved Full Defense")

Darrin
2008-10-24, 08:29 AM
This only works if you use the weapons in question (thus making your Full Attack into "Improved Full Defense")

...which would be fine if the Defending property mentioned such a requirement, but it doesn't.

By RAW? Yeah, just try it and your DM will introduce you to the tingling sensation of a couple dozen sheet-lightning "RAI" enemas.

Riffington
2008-10-24, 08:53 AM
...which would be fine if the Defending property mentioned such a requirement, but it doesn't.

How do you read "the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon" ?

Is the "before using the weapon" purely wasted words (since obviously the start of your turn is before using any weapons)? Or is that phrase in there to indicate that you must be using the weapon that turn?

Darrin
2008-10-24, 09:23 AM
How do you read "the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon" ?

Is the "before using the weapon" purely wasted words (since obviously the start of your turn is before using any weapons)? Or is that phrase in there to indicate that you must be using the weapon that turn?

There's an argument that "wearing" a weapon (such as a gauntlet, armor spikes, buckler-axe) would count as using it, even if you didn't make an attack with it. But it's not exactly a strong argument.

NephandiMan
2008-10-24, 01:36 PM
@^

Yeah, that's like saying that carrying around a textbook all semester without reading it counts as using it.

Project_Mayhem
2008-10-24, 01:55 PM
Yeah, that's like saying that carrying around a textbook all semester without reading it counts as using it.

Thats what I'm counting on

monty
2008-10-24, 01:58 PM
@^

Yeah, that's like saying that carrying around a textbook all semester without reading it counts as using it.

Hey, that works fine for me...

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-10-24, 04:39 PM
@^

Yeah, that's like saying that carrying around a textbook all semester without reading it counts as using it.

Try selling the textbook back to the bookstore and see if they consider it used or not...

lord_khaine
2008-10-24, 04:46 PM
to derail the swordsage discussion a bit, what do you think is the best way to build a unarmed swordsage, using the version who gives up light armor for a monks unarmed damage progression?

or simply taking a swordsage and spending 2 feats to get the superior unarmed attack feat?

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-10-24, 04:53 PM
to derail the swordsage discussion a bit, what do you think is the best way to build a unarmed swordsage, using the version who gives up light armor for a monks unarmed damage progression?

or simply taking a swordsage and spending 2 feats to get the superior unarmed attack feat?

Well, Circle Kick is a must, since it's basically a free attack with full attack, and Swordsages have an awful lot of ways to get a full attack.

Generally, it depends in what you want to do.

I tend to go for Strongheart Halfling, then pick up Improved Unarmed Strike to increase my unarmed damage back to Medium sized. Why, you say? Setting Sun means never having to be hit. Baffling Defense FTW! Furthermore, Strength can be a dump stat. Take Shadow Hand stance (island of blades if you got a rogue in the party, or child of darkness for concealment, which grants immunity to precision damage), then take the feat that lets you use Dex rather than Str for damage with shadow hand weapons, which happen to include unarmed.

So now you've got Str and Cha as 'dump stats', focusing on Dex and Wis, with Int and Con in the middle (Con over Int).

I tend to lean heavily into Shadow Hand, Setting Sun, Stone Dragon, and Tiger Claw. Setting Sun and Stone Dragon are for defense (mostly... Tombstone Mountain Strike is tasty Con damage), shadow hand is for getting into position, and Tiger Claw for raw damage output.

ZeroNumerous
2008-10-24, 04:59 PM
or simply taking a swordsage and spending 2 feats to get the superior unarmed attack feat?

Two feats and a Monk's Belt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#beltMonks) is the easiest.


In general, you won't be finishing off too many enemies with Spring Attack because of the limited number of attacks. But against enemies that are just too strong for you to go toe-to-toe with, Spring Attack is the slow but safe choice.

"The monster uses it's readied action as you move by and five-foot-steps into your path before attempting to grapple you ..."

Spring Attack is a lie. And it's not even a good one at that.

Talya
2008-10-24, 05:18 PM
I haven't looked into it, but wouldn't spring attack work better with a martial adept? Seems you could use a strike in the middle of a move action, and usually prevent your enemy from taking a full attack action on you in the process.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-10-24, 05:28 PM
I haven't looked into it, but wouldn't spring attack work better with a martial adept? Seems you could use a strike in the middle of a move action, and usually prevent your enemy from taking a full attack action on you in the process.

Yes and no.

True, you can use Spring Attack to make a Martial Strike, then fade away, however that assumes you have enough movement to do it.

The build I go for is a 'close quickly and Flying Fists of Fury, seemingly impossible to hit' rather than 'hit once, and fade into the shadows'. I use Setting Sun Counters to defend myself with, many of them moving the opponent or otherwise preventing him from using a Full Attack on me.

If I'm going for Damage Output, I use Pouncing Strike to close with a full attack, using the Rabid Mongoose boost for four extra attacks. On the next turn, if high enough level, I use Time Stands Still and get TWO full actions worth of full attacks, using Rabid Mongoose on BOTH of them, for some truely sick attack numbers.

Keld Denar
2008-10-24, 05:32 PM
I haven't looked into it, but wouldn't spring attack work better with a martial adept? Seems you could use a strike in the middle of a move action, and usually prevent your enemy from taking a full attack action on you in the process.

Unfortunately, a strike is a standard action, unless the exact text on the maneuver specifies otherwise. To spring attack, you need a full round action, with an attack action in the middle of the move. An attack action is not a standard action, although a standard action can be used to make an attack. Thus, you CAN NOT use a strike in the middle of a spring attack.

You CAN, however, use a strike in the middle of a flyby attack, because its worded different than spring attack, even though its essentially a 3D version of spring attack.

Serenity
2008-10-24, 05:43 PM
Well, for a start, I would rule that an Unarmed Variant Swordsage gets Improved Unarmed Strike for free, in addition to getting Monk Unarmed Damage.

Talya
2008-10-24, 05:45 PM
Well, for a start, I would rule that an Unarmed Variant Swordsage gets Improved Unarmed Strike for free, in addition to getting Monk Unarmed Damage.

Isn't that already in the unarmed adaptation of swordsage?

RPGuru1331
2008-10-24, 05:47 PM
Don't forget that Bracers of Armor (on a class that can't wear body armor) also wastes a body slot. Admittedly, not a hugely valuable one, but paying a huge amount of money and wasting a slot for something an Unarmed Swordsage can get cheaply elsewhere is a kind of big disadvantage.

...hey, wait a sec. Can I place armor enhancements on my relatively cheap +1 Bracers of Armor, then place other armor enhancements on my actual armor-armor, and have both sets of enhancements apply? (Obviously, the +1 to AC doesn't stack with my real armor, but that's not important.) Because of the way plusses are calculated, dividing your armor's enhancements up like that could save you a lot of money, not to mention letting you get over +10 in armor enhancements pre-epic.

Are you trying to get the RAW answer? I don't think Bracers of Armor actually are Armor. Hence why they go up to +8, not +5 like everything else. They're a magic item that gives you an Armor Bonus to AC, but not Armor.

Curmudgeon
2008-10-24, 06:09 PM
"The monster uses it's readied action as you move by and five-foot-steps into your path before attempting to grapple you ..."

Spring Attack is a lie. And it's not even a good one at that.
While it's smart to stay more than 5' away from enemies, you can also Tumble as you move. Keep the skill maxed out and go right through enemy squares. (Crusaders need not apply, but Swordsages are just dandy.) You definitely shouldn't trust Spring Attack and Mobility alone to keep you safe.

Keld Denar
2008-10-24, 06:40 PM
While it's smart to stay more than 5' away from enemies, you can also Tumble as you move. Keep the skill maxed out and go right through enemy squares. (Crusaders need not apply, but Swordsages are just dandy.) You definitely shouldn't trust Spring Attack and Mobility alone to keep you safe.

Um...unless you are facing more than one foe, you don't need to tumble while spring attacking. No amount of tumbling will save you from a 5' step + readied attack, though. Its not an AoO, its their actual action, and it interupts yours when you are close enough. And good luck doing much damage with as an unarmed swordsage using spring attack if you don't get into melee range with your target at any point during your turn.

streakster
2008-10-24, 06:48 PM
Cough Hack Wyrm's Flame Wheeze

Keld Denar
2008-10-24, 07:09 PM
Cough Hack Wyrm's Flame Wheeze

Can't do that in a spring attack. Spring attack is still useless.

streakster
2008-10-24, 07:16 PM
Can't do that in a spring attack. Spring attack is still useless.

Splutter Mutter Ah true, misread what you said. Lung Collapse

NephandiMan
2008-10-24, 07:27 PM
Isn't that already in the unarmed adaptation of swordsage?

You would think so, but no - all that's mentioned in the ToB is "a monk's unarmed damage advancement." Of course, as was mentioned in another recent thread, monks technically don't even have proficiency with unarmed strikes, even though the whole class is plainly intended to use them predominately, so I'm thinking RAI could claim a little leeway here as well. After all, it's pretty clear that the unarmed swordsage variant is intended to be an improved monk (no armor proficiency, unarmed strike progression, Wisdom to AC), so it probably wouldn't be hard to convince a DM to let you take IUS for free as a 1st-level unarmed swordsage.

Curmudgeon
2008-10-25, 06:14 AM
Um...unless you are facing more than one foe, you don't need to tumble while spring attacking. No amount of tumbling will save you from a 5' step + readied attack, though. Its not an AoO, its their actual action, and it interupts yours when you are close enough.
I did think you were positing another enemy near enough to get in your way during a Spring Attack. If one enemy uses a readied action, then that will indeed give them one attack at you. Snap Kick will let you get in two attacks at them during your Spring Attack, of course, and all your allies will get to attack without reprisal. Seems like a fair tradeoff. If they do that to you once you'll probably want to fight defensively thereafter. Dodge bonus, +3 for fighting defensively, both DEX and WIS bonuses, and whatever mudane and magical AC boosts you've got should make you fairly hard to hit.

Aquillion
2008-10-25, 06:36 AM
Spring Attack does become somewhat useful again if your DM lets you determine when enemies have readied an action (say, if you can ask "do any of the goblins look like they're braced against a sudden attack?") If you can do that, then readying an action becomes an ineffective way to deal with it (because if the monster readies their action, you can just do something else and they've wasted their turn.)

It isn't clear whether you can do that or not, though. Looking at the list of readied actions in the rules, it's plain that some of them (readying a spear to receive a charge, say) would be obvious to people looking at you; others (readying a spell) probably wouldn't be.

(Of course, if you want to think out-of-character, it's pretty obvious what's going on when a monster doesn't act during their turn in the initiative count... but would that brief delay be obvious to a character?)

But even then, when you get down to it, Spring Attack is purely defensive in most cases. And wasting a feat (or more, given its prerequisites) on something purely defensive probably isn't worthwhile unless it gives you a lot more than that.

Talya
2008-10-25, 07:00 AM
Spring Attack does become somewhat useful again if your DM lets you determine when enemies have readied an action (say, if you can ask "do any of the goblins look like they're braced against a sudden attack?")

If you read the "Jedi Counselling" articles on the WotC site about Saga Edition, it makes sense that you don't even need to be that proactive...most readied actions should be obvious and apparent to the people watching.

kamikasei
2008-10-25, 08:02 AM
You would think so, but no - all that's mentioned in the ToB is "a monk's unarmed damage advancement."

Actually, the wording is "...give the swordsage the monk's unarmed strike progression and remove his light armor proficiency".

I would read that as giving the swordsage the monk's unarmed strike class feature, which includes the damage progression, Improved Unarmed Strike bonus feat, and ability to treat the unarmed strike as either manufactured or natural for purpose of enhancement effects.

shadow_archmagi
2008-10-25, 08:13 AM
So, as long as the original purpose of the thread is done (we've established unarmed swordsage is good)

I have to ask:

Crusader, Warblade, Swordsage. Which is best? Which is most fun?

Aneantir
2008-10-25, 08:46 AM
So, as long as the original purpose of the thread is done (we've established unarmed swordsage is good)

I have to ask:

Crusader, Warblade, Swordsage. Which is best? Which is most fun?

Generally, Crusader is considered the best Tome of Battle base class.
Why that is, is because the Crusader doesn't have to spend actions recovering his maneuvers everytime he runs out, so he never has to waste a turn. Not to mention Crusaders get a solid d10 hit dice, heavy armor proficiencey, Cha to Will saves at level 2+, full BAB, and Furious Counterstrike. They are, overall, a very powerfully built class, and it's hard to go wrong with straight-crusader.

The class out of the three which is the "most fun" is a matter of opinion, but the Swordsage has always held a special place in my heart in that regard. With a warehouse full of maneuvers, you will almost NEVER run out of things to do, not to mention they have a versatile skill list, full reflex/will saves, and some random other bonuses which are just cool. They are, by far, the most flexible class, but the lack of full BAB hurts them.

KevLar
2008-10-25, 09:07 AM
Actually, the wording is "...give the swordsage the monk's unarmed strike progression and remove his light armor proficiency".

I would read that as giving the swordsage the monk's unarmed strike class feature, which includes the damage progression, Improved Unarmed Strike bonus feat, and ability to treat the unarmed strike as either manufactured or natural for purpose of enhancement effects.
I agree. Otherwise, it would say "the monks' unarmed damage progression". It makes more sense too. And since the monk's unarmed strike gives full strength bonus to off-hand attacks, this becomes very important when you get to the point of having tons of attacks per round.

By the way, does anyone know if there's an official ruling for this?

kamikasei
2008-10-25, 09:16 AM
I agree. Otherwise, it would say "the monks' unarmed damage progression". It makes more sense too. And since the monk's unarmed strike gives full strength bonus to off-hand attacks, this becomes very important when you get to the point of having tons of attacks per round.

By the way, does anyone know if there's an official ruling for this?

Given that there's still no errata to clear up obvious mistakes like the swordsage's "x6 skill points at first level" or "gains Wis to AC only in light armor", I doubt it. There may be an FAQ or CustServ answer, but they tend to be self-contradictory.

Talya
2008-10-25, 09:25 AM
Generally, Crusader is considered the best Tome of Battle base class.

Generally, i've seen no consensus on this.

What you say about them is true, but their discipline choices are very limited, and they have no flexibility in which maneuvers they have ready at any given time. Most battles also don't last long enough for a swordsage or even warblade to run out of maneuvers.

I tend to think the three classes are very well balanced against each other. Of the three, Warblade is by far my favorite, but swordsage is the only one i've actually played in a game.

Starbuck_II
2008-10-25, 09:43 AM
Given that there's still no errata to clear up obvious mistakes like the swordsage's "x6 skill points at first level" or "gains Wis to AC only in light armor", I doubt it. There may be an FAQ or CustServ answer, but they tend to be self-contradictory.

There was errata, but they didn't do it right.

It was funny: it had like 2 things fixed and then the rest of errata page was Complete Mage.

They didn't fix the above parts actually.

kamikasei
2008-10-25, 09:53 AM
There was errata, but they didn't do it right.

It was funny: it had like 2 things fixed and then the rest of errata page was Complete Mage.

Wow, that's... really, truly crap. I can't believe they posted a mostly-unfinished recycling of an errata from a different book and haven't corrected it since.

Talya
2008-10-25, 10:26 AM
Wow, that's... really, truly crap. I can't believe they posted a mostly-unfinished recycling of an errata from a different book and haven't corrected it since.

Their focus is on 4e, not 3.5.

Lord Tataraus
2008-10-25, 11:14 AM
Generally, Crusader is considered the best Tome of Battle base class.
Why that is, is because the Crusader doesn't have to spend actions recovering his maneuvers everytime he runs out, so he never has to waste a turn. Not to mention Crusaders get a solid d10 hit dice, heavy armor proficiencey, Cha to Will saves at level 2+, full BAB, and Furious Counterstrike. They are, overall, a very powerfully built class, and it's hard to go wrong with straight-crusader.

The class out of the three which is the "most fun" is a matter of opinion, but the Swordsage has always held a special place in my heart in that regard. With a warehouse full of maneuvers, you will almost NEVER run out of things to do, not to mention they have a versatile skill list, full reflex/will saves, and some random other bonuses which are just cool. They are, by far, the most flexible class, but the lack of full BAB hurts them.

I don't think Crusader is "generally" considered the best, maybe that is your opinion, but I haven't heard enough people say that. Generally, I've heard that the three classes are pretty well balanced with each other and its all up to your preferred playing style and character idea which is best. The same goes for the most fun.

Aquillion
2008-10-25, 04:30 PM
I don't think Crusader is "generally" considered the best, maybe that is your opinion, but I haven't heard enough people say that. Generally, I've heard that the three classes are pretty well balanced with each other and its all up to your preferred playing style and character idea which is best. The same goes for the most fun.
Also, there's more than just basic combat ability to consider. The Swordsage is the most useful out of combat, aren't they? They have more options by far, so they're more likely to have trick XYZ up their sleeve for a particular problem.

NephandiMan
2008-10-25, 09:02 PM
Actually, the wording is "...give the swordsage the monk's unarmed strike progression and remove his light armor proficiency".

I would read that as giving the swordsage the monk's unarmed strike class feature, which includes the damage progression, Improved Unarmed Strike bonus feat, and ability to treat the unarmed strike as either manufactured or natural for purpose of enhancement effects.

I like that take on it - partly because it makes sense.