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View Full Version : Need a couple rulings {3.5}



golentan
2008-10-21, 04:19 PM
Is it legal to give Shuriken the returning ability. The ability says it can be applied to any thrown weapon, and that at the beginning of the players next turn will "return to the character's hand ready for use." But shuriken count as destroyed on impact.

The thing is, if it is legal and returning negates the effect of ammunition destruction, it leads me to some pretty broken builds. As in "epic level magic weapon at level 5" broken. Since you get 50 magic shuriken for the price of one magic weapon, buying a single one (or even 2) is within the reach of low-mid level characters and I wind up with builds built around "I leap from cover, throw my tiny blades of doom, and all enemies I see take 20d6 various energy damage, are bull rushed, and gain negative levels with no range penalties. I return to cover and repeat on my next turn."

The obvious counter is "Someone made 50 of those, and you only can account for 2. Prepare to face the others." But that seems to just lead to battles where either the pcs or npcs win based on who sees the other first or who wins initiative, and I don't want to get involved in escalating battles with my DM or players. And I always hate the cop out "your gear is confiscated/stolen" as a solution.

So
Question 1:Regardless of whether the DM should allow it in their game, is it legal in core to do this?

Question 2:If a player attempts this, should the DM allow it?

Question 3:If they do, how should they adjust game balance to keep things fun even for the people without the munchkin shuriken?

Keld Denar
2008-10-21, 04:35 PM
Reread returning. It can't be applied to ammunition. At all. RAW. Sorry, not even a possibility. And even if you could, it still wouldn't affect the fact that ammo is 100% destroyed upon a successful hit, with a 50% chance to survive a miss.

So to answer your questions.

1. No
2. Point out the RAW, and tell them no. Learning the rules is important.
3. Send a Wizard after the character, have the caster cast Fly and Windwall, laugh menacingly at the PC for 2d4 rounds, then OMGWTFPWN him with lazers. Or Enervations...which are essentially lazers. Black lazers that steal your soul and turn you into a wight. Introduce a wight with several broken shurkens sticking out of him at a later point.

golentan
2008-10-21, 04:57 PM
Returning

This special ability can only be placed on a weapon that can be thrown. A returning weapon flies through the air back to the creature that threw it. It returns to the thrower just before the creature’s next turn (and is therefore ready to use again in that turn).

Catching a returning weapon when it comes back is a free action. If the character can’t catch it, or if the character has moved since throwing it, the weapon drops to the ground in the square from which it was thrown.

Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, telekinesis; Price +1 bonus.

It says absolutely nothing one way or the other about ammunition. And to prove I have not tampered with the text in any way:

Here is the link
(http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#returning)

Unless the SRD disagrees with the DMG, the only requirement is that it is applied to a thrown weapon, which shuriken are.

Douglas
2008-10-21, 05:04 PM
Any magical properties of an item are irrelevant if the item is destroyed. Returning does not do anything to change the rules for destruction of ammunition, so it only works on the 50% of misses where the shuriken is not destroyed.

Dublock
2008-10-21, 05:04 PM
to quote the SRD under shuriken


shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them and what happens to them after they are thrown.

Sorry, won't work with RAW

Kurald Galain
2008-10-21, 05:09 PM
Question 1:Regardless of whether the DM should allow it in their game, is it legal in core to do this?
No.


Question 2:If a player attempts this, should the DM allow it?
Depends. Returning shuriken, sure. 20d6 various energy damage, are bull rushed, and gain negative levels with no range penalties, no. But if your players are pulling the latter, returning shuriken are the least of your worries.


Question 3:If they do, how should they adjust game balance to keep things fun even for the people without the munchkin shuriken?
Give every player about equally powerful magical items.

Dr Bwaa
2008-10-21, 05:20 PM
I think the real problem here lies in the fact that shuriken are not meant to EXPLODE when used. They shouldn't, IMO, be in the category of "things that are broken once you've thrown them" at all. They're made of solid steel; they're sturdier than a dagger, and in my experience, you can throw them at/into a huge variety of things without hurting them. They don't break like arrows or bolts do (assumedly this is why you can't reuse them); maybe they get dull??? Sure. Saying they are useless after one hit is, IMO, equivalent to saying a greataxe is dulled after the first hit--and if you cleave with it, just forget about it! Might as well build a new axehead from scratch!

Epinephrine
2008-10-21, 05:36 PM
I agree that shuriken shouldn't be ammunition. They should be thrown weapons. I suspect nobody wanted to have to recover their shuriken?

JupiterPaladin
2008-10-21, 10:12 PM
@ ^ I agree. They should not have been destroy on impact or ammo types. IIRC they are made of at least iron or better metal. I treat them the same as a throwing dagger, except less damage. I allow them to be enchanted as any other weapon... one at a time. I also do not require the "throwing" property on a dagger. I always assume that you would choose a balanced throwing dagger as a base weapon if you intended to throw it often. Returning is a must, and very useful IMO.

Rei_Jin
2008-10-21, 10:19 PM
Remember though, if you throw a returning weapon and then move, that it only returns to the square from which you threw it, and it only does that one round after it was thrown.

Returning is a very useful property, but not as useful as could be hoped.

LurkerInPlayground
2008-10-21, 10:20 PM
Is it legal to give Shuriken the returning ability. The ability says it can be applied to any thrown weapon, and that at the beginning of the players next turn will "return to the character's hand ready for use." But shuriken count as destroyed on impact.

The thing is, if it is legal and returning negates the effect of ammunition destruction, it leads me to some pretty broken builds. As in "epic level magic weapon at level 5" broken. Since you get 50 magic shuriken for the price of one magic weapon, buying a single one (or even 2) is within the reach of low-mid level characters and I wind up with builds built around "I leap from cover, throw my tiny blades of doom, and all enemies I see take 20d6 various energy damage, are bull rushed, and gain negative levels with no range penalties. I return to cover and repeat on my next turn."

The obvious counter is "Someone made 50 of those, and you only can account for 2. Prepare to face the others." But that seems to just lead to battles where either the pcs or npcs win based on who sees the other first or who wins initiative, and I don't want to get involved in escalating battles with my DM or players. And I always hate the cop out "your gear is confiscated/stolen" as a solution.

So
Question 1:Regardless of whether the DM should allow it in their game, is it legal in core to do this?

Question 2:If a player attempts this, should the DM allow it?

Question 3:If they do, how should they adjust game balance to keep things fun even for the people without the munchkin shuriken?
You just answered your own question.

Make an ad-hoc ruling that returning enchantments don't work for shurikens.

RAW or no, you really don't need an excuse to make a ruling to fit your tastes.

Rei_Jin
2008-10-21, 10:28 PM
I got around this problem for one of my players by creating for him a Shuriken Belt. It created as many Shurikens as he needed, and once per day it could enchant 50 Shurikens with a magical effect. It could also make 50 special material Shurikens (His options were Alchemical Silver, Cold Iron, or Admantium) per day. Only caveat is that one round after the Shurikens were removed from the belt they would disappear.

The cost? Double the standard cost for a magical weapon of the same amount. So if it was capable of creating +2 Flaming Shurikens, it would cost 36,000gp.

But, he never had to worry about Shurikens ever again, and it made his character viable with this most unusual of weapons.

Some people will disagree with the power level of the item, but it worked just fine for us.