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View Full Version : [3.5] Reduce and Enlarge Person, and its many conundrums



Defiant
2008-10-21, 05:18 PM
I figured all these questions were advanced enough not to fit into the Simple Q&A thread, not to mention that they're all nicely related.

For the purposes of these questions, imagine a character who wants to permanently reduce or enlarge their size. For example, a Medium or Large character specializing in the Spiked Chain with Combat Reflexes (like a Fighter) might like to be enlarged to have an even greater reach to get zounds of attacks of opportunity. For another example, a Small or Medium character specializing in hiding and avoiding being hit in combat (like a Rogue) might like to be reduced to have an even greater bonus to Hiding and not being hit.

As far as I know, my research has yielded two ways to do this (when the person himself or herself does not have the necessary spells):

A) Purchase spellcasting services to Reduce or Enlarge Person. Minimum cost: 10gp (Caster Level 1)
Purchase spellcasting services (on the same session) of Permanency to the Reduce or Enlarge Person. Minimum Cost: 2950gp (Caster Level 9 minimum, 2500gp of total for 500XP cost)

Reference Data:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spellcastingAndServices
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reducePerson.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm

B) Purchase an item (such as a ring) that has the continuous property of Reduce or Enlarge Person. Minimum Cost: 4000gp (1 for spell level * 1 for caster level * 2000gp for continuous * 2 for one minute per level duration)

Reference Data (in addition to the above):
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm



Now this has brought up numerous questions for me. I will number them for simplicity.

1)

All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly reduced by the spell.

Melee and projectile weapons deal less damage. Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any reduced item that leaves the reduced creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them).

What happens to items picked up by the creature after the casting? Are only the items worn or carried at the time of casting affected by the enlargement/reduction?

If yes, then can a Medium character reduced to Small pick up and use Small-sized armor? What happens when the Medium-turned-Small character's Reduce Person spell runs out? Is he crushed by his armor as he enlarges back?


2) When an enemy spellcaster attempts to dispel a person permanently enlarged (as in A), does the spell level of the Permanency or the spell level of the Enlarge Person apply as the caster level in regards to the Dispel check, or both?

This question also applies to the following Permanency excerpt:


This application of permanency can be dispelled only by a caster of higher level than you were when you cast the spell.


3)

This spell causes instant diminution of a humanoid creature, halving its height, length, and width and dividing its weight by 8. This decrease changes the creature’s size category to the next smaller one. The target gains a +2 size bonus to Dexterity, a -2 size penalty to Strength (to a minimum of 1), and a +1 bonus on attack rolls and AC due to its reduced size.

Ignoring maximum dexterity, that's effectively a +2 to AC, yes?


4) Is there a Enlarge or Reduce spell that is not restricted to the Humanoid type? For example, for a Fey.



That's it for now. I was sure there were more questions, but so much D&D is swirling in and out of my head... Anyways, if more come up, I'll post them in this thread.

Keld Denar
2008-10-21, 06:06 PM
1. If you pick up gear after being enlarged/reduced, it does not resize. If you drop gear after being enlarged reduced, it would revert to its normal size. Thus, a fighter would either have to purchase all of his gear as large sized, OR make sure he never drops his weapon. Of course, being disarmed would blow your whole tactic, and you couldn't take off your armor to sleep, so either wear light armor, take Endurance, or be prepared to suffer fatigue penalties. A reduced character COULD pick up a small sized weapon and use it proficiently, since his size catagory would change to small, and it would be an appropriately sized weapon for his size catagory. Same in reverse for enlarge.

2. They could hit the base spell with a targeted dispel on the enlarged/reduced character. If its dispelled, the Permanency would also be removed, since it doesn't have a spell to hold up.

3. Correct

4. Other than wholescale shapechanging spells like Polymorph, not as printed. In psionics, there is the Expansion power, which is personal, and doesn't care about your type. There is also the option of doing magical research on a spell Enlarge/Reduce Monster. Given that there is already precidence in this in Charm Person/Monster, Hold Person/Monster, Dominate Person/Monster, it would probably be about 2 spell levels higher.

Enjoy!

Defiant
2008-10-21, 09:36 PM
Thanks a lot for your answers.


2. They could hit the base spell with a targeted dispel on the enlarged/reduced character. If its dispelled, the Permanency would also be removed, since it doesn't have a spell to hold up.

So suppose I want my Permanent Reduce/Enlarge Person/Monster to be as impervious to enemy caster dispels as possible. You said they'd need to hit the base spell. So should I invest my money in making the Reduce Person as high caster level as possible (caster level * 10gp), rather than the Permanency (and thus stick with the minimum of 9 for Permanency)?

Could an enemy spellcaster also target the Permanency? (in that case, my weakest link would be whichever spell has the lower caster level, and I'd need to invest money in making both as high as possible)

tyckspoon
2008-10-21, 10:01 PM
Could an enemy spellcaster also target the Permanency? (in that case, my weakest link would be whichever spell has the lower caster level, and I'd need to invest money in making both as high as possible)

Yes. Both spells are involved in making the effect permanent (Reduce/Enlarge Person provides the size change, Permanency.. well, provides the permanent duration, like it says on the tin) and both must remain active. If Permanency gets dispelled, the other spell reverts to its normal Duration, which most likely ended weeks earlier.

ocato
2008-10-21, 10:07 PM
However, if you had a ring that gave you the spell as a constant effect, dispel magic would only be able to suppress it, not remove it permanently if I recall correctly.

Keld Denar
2008-10-22, 12:29 AM
It wouldn't dispel it no, or even suppress it unless the ring itself was targeted with a dispel. Then it would be suppressed for 1d4 rounds, just like any other continuous magic item. Chances of having the item targeted are pretty slim though, unless you get hit by a Chained Dispel Magic and they take out all your gear too.

The Glyphstone
2008-10-22, 12:59 AM
Lords of Madness supplies the Ring of Reduction, for 20,000GP, which functions as a Reduce Person effect for a creature of any type.

No Enlarging version I know of yet.

Darrin
2008-10-22, 08:20 AM
Lords of Madness supplies the Ring of Reduction, for 20,000GP, which functions as a Reduce Person effect for a creature of any type.

No Enlarging version I know of yet.

A Ring of... Enlargement (hokay... I hope I make my save vs. inappropriate comment) would cost the same. Reduce person/enlarge person are the same spell level, same spell effect.

Outside of shrink item and polymorph any object, there are only two ways I know of to resize objects, if you're looking to do that sort of thing after using enlarge person and picking up something that you weren't carrying when the spell was activated. The Sizing property (MIC p. 43) can be added to any weapon for 5000 GP. You can command it as a swift action to change to any size category you desire. (Really? So Person_Man's 64-foot harpoon trick would work over and over again without casting shrink item? Hmmm...).

The second way is "Resize", a 0-level cantrip in Dragon #302 that permanently resize one piece of non-magical clothing or armor up or down one size category (available to clerics, druids, and sorcerer/wizards). Set yourself up a little armor stall in a city, and you've got a license to print money just by taking normal armor, increasing its size, and reselling it for a profit.

Holy Whitey-Tighties... I think I just discovered what the Underpants Gnomes' Phase Two was!