KotOR MMO officially announced: Star Wars the Old Republic

[Sir_Hobbit]

We all know that the KotOR games are gifts from the RPG god, and people have been talking about KotOR III for a while. And then, enough rumours started coming that everyone just assumed it was coming as a MMO. So this actually isn't a suprise at all. But nontheless, there's some sweet, sweet information coming in.

See here at Massively (http://www.massively.com/2008/10/21/star-wars-mmo-announced-as-the-old-republic/), and look at their other posts on it.

This interests me greatly... The content they're trumpeting seems impressive ("It's like KOTOR 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 and beyond"), putting my displeasure at a lack of KotOR III to a light sleep. Their main marketing point, storytelling in a MMO, intrigues me. Seems like they're going to fight their hardest to keep all their story prowess alive in a MMO. To the naysayers, saying that they can't possibly do it; c'mon, man, it's Bioware. If I'm a fanboy of anything, Bioware's it.

They're keeping the companion idea from the original games, which is a good call. What seems the biggest gameplay difference (from the information given so far) is the lack of precious quicksafe. Whenever I was about to go into combat or talk to a NPC, bleep! Quicksave. Now, you make a decision, it goes wrong, suck it up and deal with it. I'm going to have to play it to see if it hurts or helps, it seems. Also, combat will likely be very different. No pausing in a MMO.

Overall, I'm hopeful, but not rip-roaring to go. They may win me over with more information.

[Seraph]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v22/Darkseraph15/vaderno.jpg

[Ascension]

My only question, the one my decision to buy or not will be based on, the only one that matters, in my opinion, when it comes to MMOs, is this: Will there be monthly fees? My gut says yes, my brain says yes, my heart begs for no.

[Mando Knight]

They're keeping the companion idea from the original games, which is a good call. What seems the biggest gameplay difference (from the information given so far) is the lack of precious quicksafe. Whenever I was about to go into combat or talk to a NPC, bleep! Quicksave. Now, you make a decision, it goes wrong, suck it up and deal with it. I'm going to have to play it to see if it hurts or helps, it seems. Also, combat will likely be very different. No pausing in a MMO.

Overall, I'm hopeful, but not rip-roaring to go. They may win me over with more information.

I like what I see so far...

My questions:

Will Star Wars: the Old Republic use the SAGA edition rules, like the upcoming Champions Online will use the HERO system? That (or a similarly balanced system...) would make it worthwhile to play a not-Jedi...

Will we finally be able to play as non-human heroes in an Old Republic game?

Will there be Mandalorians?

[ocato]

I'm more worried about Jedi and the balance therein. There is a very precarious position here. If everyone can be a Jedi, they will probably be kind of lame. If no one can be a jedi, then the game will feel like it is missing a mystique. The correct solution is that I should be a jedi, because I buy every piece of crap product George squeezes out and he seriously owes me. Also, I'm a power nerd and that jerk owes me.

[Mando Knight]

I'm more worried about Jedi and the balance therein. There is a very precarious position here. If everyone can be a Jedi, they will probably be kind of lame. If no one can be a jedi, then the game will feel like it is missing a mystique. The correct solution is that I should be a jedi, because I buy every piece of crap product George squeezes out and he seriously owes me. Also, I'm a power nerd and that jerk owes me.

Who says that Lucas is going to play a direct role in producing the game?

SAGA Edition makes Jedi somewhat better balanced with the non-Jedi compared to the original d20 version...

[Kish]

SAGA Edition makes Jedi somewhat better balanced with the non-Jedi compared to the original d20 version...
If you think that will stop 90% of the game's population from being Jedi if they have the option, you're very wrong.

[Mando Knight]

If you think that will stop 90% of the game's population from being Jedi if they have the option, you're very wrong.

No, but if they use the SAGA system, then the Jedi are neither absurdly overpowered nor are they excessively weak compared to other incarnations.

[TurkeyTGNom]

Sounds interesting. My guess is, they will probably make Jedi/Sith a kind of prestige class, you know something you can make when you hit a specific level, or meet a specific requirement. Sounds kind of like Star Wars Galaxies. (Lucas arts first most less-than popular MMO I believe).

To be honest though, I'd rather take a Kotor III than an MMO. MMOs (in my humble opinion) are for games that hit that pinnacle of story where everyone is satisfied enough to branch out and start their own adventures OR are new games that are told through the story of multiple eyes. To me, the Kotor series just isn’t that established story wise in order to make a jump to MMO, too many unanswered questions. like what happened to Revan? What happened to the general at the end of Kotor 2? What was the deal with the republic being only crippled enough to "make a point"? there are others that I can't remember the others off the top of my head, but you get the idea I just don't think Kotor hit that stage in the story line where we all get that warm and fuzzy to go out and make our own stories.

[Sir_Hobbit]

You actually make a good point about story closure. Apparently, SW:TOR takes place 300 years after KotOR one and two, where the ancient Sith Empire has resurfaced. There was a battle between them and the Old Republic, and there was tentative peace. You come into the equation as the peace just starts to break.

So really, it's more of a reboot than a continuation of the story. But I'd bet all the credits on Taris (not much is left, it turns out) that Revan will either still be alive, or will be manipulating something or other with holocrons. It'll be a "reveal what happened after the last game" than "play through the results of the last game". Not sure I like it either.

[Ganurath]

Idea: Non-Force Classes are available for Free to Play, and Force Classes are for those who pay.

[chiasaur11]

Idea: Non-Force Classes are available for Free to Play, and Force Classes are for those who pay.

Bad idea.

Pay for win in PvP is, well, a bad idea.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Okay everybody. No panic, we can solve this before it becomes unsolvable.

We will need a rally point, a date, and ennough explosive to destroy their development server. And may God Have Mercy on Our Soul.

[RPGuru1331]

My only question, the one my decision to buy or not will be based on, the only one that matters, in my opinion, when it comes to MMOs, is this: Will there be monthly fees? My gut says yes, my brain says yes, my heart begs for no.

If 15 dollars a month is a bankbreaker to you, I hate to tell you, but you REALLY need to not be buying games period.

[Jibar]

You actually make a good point about story closure. Apparently, SW:TOR takes place 300 years after KotOR one and two, where the ancient Sith Empire has resurfaced. There was a battle between them and the Old Republic, and there was tentative peace. You come into the equation as the peace just starts to break.

...

Uh... what?

WHAT!?

You come to me with your The Clone Wars looking crap, your disrespect for your predecessors and then you take away the one thing that would have ever made me interested in your game?

GAH!
*headdesk*

[First Speaker]

Suddenly, Mary-Sues, thousands of them.

[Pronounceable]

There goes the last hope for KotoR3...

[Dragor]

Pleasedon'tmessup x 1000. I have faith that BioWare will make a good and possibly great stab at it, but there will always be this presence in my mind telling me that a single player variant would be better.

If they manage to deliver, I'll be joyous. If not... smilies nor words can express my sorrow. :smalltongue:

[Emperor Ing]

They announced the KOTOR MMO

again?!

damn it release it already! :smalltongue:

[Athaniar]

YES! FINALLY!

They've finally announced it officially, and by the looks of it, it's going to be great. I have complete faith in BioWare's ability to make this the best MMORPG ever Even better than WoW, perhaps.

And why are people always complaining about monthly costs? If it's great, it deserves being paid for.

Can't wait to pick my side in the Republic/Empire conflict!

Just two wishes at the moment:
-Please don't have super-sized lightsabers in the finalized version.
-Please make non-humans playable. An all-human game-world would be incredibly dull (and not to mention speciesistic) in such a diverse universe as Star Wars.

Go BioWare! May the Force be with you!


EDIT:
Regarding species, there is a female togruta jedi on the official page. A strong indication of multiple species, if you ask me!

[MeklorIlavator]

Why complain about monthly costs? Partially, because we already have to buy the damn thing, but now they make you pay rent as well. Also, sometimes it just isn't feasible with a person's playstyle. I'll play a game heavily for a month and then not touch it again for half a year, so its hard to actually get value out of a MMO.

[Athaniar]

Then don't pay any more after that month until you want to play it again. It's as simple as that.

[Ascension]

If 15 dollars a month is a bankbreaker to you, I hate to tell you, but you REALLY need to not be buying games period.

Break the bank? No, it won't do that. What it will do, though, is make me resent the fact that by the time I've finished playing it I will have paid for probably a dozen non-MMO games, at the least. What it will do is remind me that instead of playing one game for many months and paying out the nose for it the entire time, I could have been playing a diverse blend of other games which probably would have entertained me even more. And what's more, those other games would be mine for as long as I wanted them. I could pick up and play them at any time I wanted, without having to shell out more cash first.

I don't get enough enjoyment out of MMOs for them to be worth monthly fees. Its not a matter of budget, it's a matter of perceived value. I don't think of MMOs as being any more valuable than a normal game.

[SmartAlec]

Its not a matter of budget, it's a matter of perceived value. I don't think of MMOs as being any more valuable than a normal game.

Games these days do tend to be awfully short. If nothing else, MMOs have longevity.

[ocato]

Different races are a must, however I'd like to see even more than Galaxies had. Just rattling off the top of my head, I can think of a lot of really interesting races they could/should use. Like, 20+ probably, though I severely doubt they'll go that far.

[Holammer]

I hate the KotOR setting with a red glowing fiery passion (mind you the games aren't that bad design-wise, talking about the comics). It makes sense to put it in another period than the imperial galaxy setting so they can add tons of Jedi and Sith without breaking the setting from the old movies.
I played SWG and actually enjoyed it a lot back when Jedi were too paranoid to be seen publicly and was hoping for something along the lines of that. Less Jedi and more gun tooting. If I can't wear storm trooper armour and uphold Imperial authority, it's not a Star Wars game for me.

[RPGuru1331]

Break the bank? No, it won't do that. What it will do, though, is make me resent the fact that by the time I've finished playing it I will have paid for probably a dozen non-MMO games, at the least. What it will do is remind me that instead of playing one game for many months and paying out the nose for it the entire time, I could have been playing a diverse blend of other games which probably would have entertained me even more. And what's more, those other games would be mine for as long as I wanted them. I could pick up and play them at any time I wanted, without having to shell out more cash first.
Then quit kvetching and go buy /those/ games then. I couldn't care less whether you play the KotOR MMO or not; I almost certainly won't. But it just seems pointless to point at the monthly costs when the issue really is that you won't enjoy the game as much.


I don't get enough enjoyment out of MMOs for them to be worth monthly fees. Its not a matter of budget, it's a matter of perceived value. I don't think of MMOs as being any more valuable than a normal game.
They have something normal games pretty much do not have though; Other folks. If that's not worth it to you, no worries, but you're getting value for the dollar in that it's effectively a unique function.

[Shraik]

My only question, the one my decision to buy or not will be based on, the only one that matters, in my opinion, when it comes to MMOs, is this: Will there be monthly fees? My gut says yes, my brain says yes, my heart begs for no.

Well, the monthly fee should be the fee for xbox Live only. Its Kotor, its more then likely going to be on the 360. If it isn't, thats just stupid, and Vader will need to choke some b*tches

[Tom_Violence]

Well, pretty much all I can say at this stage is 'awww crap!'. The KotOR MMOG thing is kinda old news, but back when nothing was confirmed there was this beautiful rumour that it wasn't actually going to be a MMOG but a heavily-multiplayer-based game, ala the original Neverwinter Nights. I'm guessing those dreams have now been well and truely quashed.

I for one will not be going anywhere near this game, because I hate MMOGs with a burning passion and not a single one of them has ever come close to doing good in my eyes. Playing with other people in a great setting has so much potential, but MMOGs have zero immersion to them so I just simply cannot get on board.

My faith in the current state of the gaming industry sinks ever lower. The only good that can come of this is that it raises enough moolah to fund an actual KotOR3, which like any truly great magnum opus ought to suck up cash like a ... great big cash eater.


Games these days do tend to be awfully short. If nothing else, MMOs have longevity.

Punching yourself in the face all day long has longevity too. It ain't a virtue.

[Ascension]

Then quit kvetching and go buy /those/ games then. I couldn't care less whether you play the KotOR MMO or not; I almost certainly won't. But it just seems pointless to point at the monthly costs when the issue really is that you won't enjoy the game as much.

I will go buy other games if they attach a monthly fee to this game. I would enjoy it, but only if I didn't have to pay potentially hundreds of bucks to play it.



They have something normal games pretty much do not have though; Other folks. If that's not worth it to you, no worries, but you're getting value for the dollar in that it's effectively a unique function.

I can find other folks plenty of places. Forums. In my dorm. Outside in the streets. It's not hard. They aren't worth shilling out cash each month for.


Well, the monthly fee should be the fee for xbox Live only. Its Kotor, its more then likely going to be on the 360. If it isn't, thats just stupid, and Vader will need to choke some b*tches

I don't have a 360 and I wouldn't pay for Live even if I did. I'm betting on a PC title.

[RPGuru1331]

I will go buy other games if they attach a monthly fee to this game. I would enjoy it, but only if I didn't have to pay potentially hundreds of bucks to play it.
That makes no sense. If it's not a bankbreaker, why is a minor cost such an enormous deal to you? Christ, it's disposable income. It's there to be disposed of on things that are fun. If it's not disposable income, it's a nonissue either way.


I can find other folks plenty of places. Forums. In my dorm. Outside in the streets. It's not hard. They aren't worth shilling out cash each month for.
And games aren't generally built to include them. That's the point of the MMO; To play games with other people.

[SmartAlec]

Punching yourself in the face all day long has longevity too. It ain't a virtue.

On the contrary. If a game can keep throwing up new environments and challenges, enough to keep things different, that's good. I don't think you quite understood what I was getting at, there, as comparing it to punching yourself in the face makes no sense.


I can find other folks plenty of places. Forums. In my dorm. Outside in the streets. It's not hard. They aren't worth shilling out cash each month for.

There are free nightclubs everywhere you look. You might ask, then, why people pay membership fees for exclusive clubs.

[TurkeyTGNom]

...punching yourself in the face makes no sense.



Sure it does, but its fun to watch reguardless:smalltongue:

As far as Lucas making another MMO, I really don't see a problem with it. I personally won't get it because the thought of playing a Jedi online is kinda sickening to me. the whole starwars universe is too damn choppy (story wise) for me to even get into it anymore. If they come out with Kotor 3, then I'll jump on it, like a fat kid, diving into a mud hole to save his chocolate danish. If not, then I can only shake my head at Lucas Arts for pushing this, and at Bioware for actually listening. No doubt Bioware can pull it off, but I have a feeling it's going to hurt them more than help.

[Zarah]

If not, then I can only shake my head at Lucas Arts for pushing this, and at Bioware for actually listening. No doubt Bioware can pull it off, but I have a feeling it's going to hurt them more than help.

Actually, Bioware was looking to make an MMO before LucasArts ever got involved. In fact, the entire project feels to me less like a "Star Wars game" and more like a "Bioware game", if that makes any sense. Star Wars is merely a wrapper for it all.

[TurkeyTGNom]

True, but if that wrapper has a picture of Barbra Strisand in nude and sugestive poses, your not gonna care whats on the inside.


*shudders*


i think i have just contracted death for posting that:smalleek:

[Tom_Violence]

On the contrary. If a game can keep throwing up new environments and challenges, enough to keep things different, that's good. I don't think you quite understood what I was getting at, there, as comparing it to punching yourself in the face makes no sense.

Ah, on the contrary, I think it is you who have failed to understand me! :smalltongue: You presume the game will be good, so length and variation of it are good things to you. I presume the game will be dreadful (its a MMOG after all, and I don't believe that even Bioware can pull off a 'story based MMOG' (how many times have we heard that promise anyway?)), so adding length and variation to it would just prolong the horrible experience.

Hence I liken the game to punching yourself in the face (a bad thing, we can all agree). Adding variety and length to that is just punching yourself in different parts of the face, for longer.


There are free nightclubs everywhere you look. You might ask, then, why people pay membership fees for exclusive clubs.

I think its a bit of a stretch to compare any MMOG to an exclusive club. Exclusive clubs aim to keep people out, so that their members don't have to deal with people they don't like. MMOGs' pricing systems aren't designed to keep people out, but simply to make as much money off of every Tom, D1ck and ObiWangRoxxers that walks through the door. An exclusive club they ain't. A very average bar that decides to start charging a cover on Friday nights is more like it.


That makes no sense. If it's not a bankbreaker, why is a minor cost such an enormous deal to you? Christ, it's disposable income. It's there to be disposed of on things that are fun. If it's not disposable income, it's a nonissue either way.

I find this kind of odd as well. One of the biggest problems I have with MMOG pricing systems is that they charge me the same whether I play for 20 minutes or 15 bajillion hours each month. Its not in me to devote that much time to a game to make the payment worthwhile. A minor cost becomes a bigger deal when you're not getting anything like value for money for it.

Analogy time! $15 is not really a lot of money, right? It is for a beer. And just because I've got a disposable income set aside for things that are fun doesn't mean that I'm going to just run out and buy $15 beers simply because they fit in to my definition of fun.

[Athaniar]

Isn't the for/against Pay-Per-Month MMOs discussion for another thread? Please, let us instead talk about matters such as non-human species (please, let's have a lot of them!), the cartoonish style (I like it), and gigantic lightsabers (please tell me they're just placeholders!).

[Tom_Violence]

Isn't the for/against Pay-Per-Month MMOs discussion for another thread?

Were this thread moving at a much quicker pace I'd agree with you. But its not, so I don't.

[RPGuru1331]

I find this kind of odd as well. One of the biggest problems I have with MMOG pricing systems is that they charge me the same whether I play for 20 minutes or 15 bajillion hours each month. Its not in me to devote that much time to a game to make the payment worthwhile. A minor cost becomes a bigger deal when you're not getting anything like value for money for it.

Analogy time! $15 is not really a lot of money, right? It is for a beer. And just because I've got a disposable income set aside for things that are fun doesn't mean that I'm going to just run out and buy $15 beers simply because they fit in to my definition of fun.

Dude, if you play for /2 hours/, you just beat the pricing on a movie. If you don't have an ideological problem with movie pricing like Grandad, then you can only lose if you /do not play the game/. 2 hours in a month does not require devotion. If you're on the internet, posting on a forum, the odds are good you have much more free time then that, and that if you like the game, you'll get even more playtime.

[Mando Knight]

gigantic lightsabers (please tell me they're just placeholders!).

What? Gigantic lightsabers? They actually look about the right size to me...
*looks again*
...except for the hilts. They need to be brought down a couple dozen notches. Seriously, the toy lightsabers have smaller hilts, and they have slightly too large of hilts for the blade length.

[Weiser_Cain]

I heard they're only coming down a single notch. Though continued outrage could shrink it in patches. I also heard the graphics are going for a somewhat cartoony look which pisses me off more.

[Jibar]

Dude, if you play for /2 hours/, you just beat the pricing on a movie.

But did you have to pay £39.99 ($=?) to even get into the cinema before paying for those two hours?
Just because you get value out of that $15 odd doesn't stop the fact that you've already been charged an up front fee that you won't get back.

[Weiser_Cain]

*cough*privateservers*cough*

[Muz]

As someone who's really not familiar with modern MMORPGs (aside from a 10-day free trial of WoW), how can a "story-based MMO" actually work? Isn't that like fan-fic only written simultaneously by thousands (if not millions) of people?

For that matter, can any WoW veterans tell me how story is developed in WoW? I hear occasional things about how expansions introduce new things and new happenings, but I don't pay much attention since I'm not a player. Are those new things affecting the history of the game world in any way that the players have an active role in, or is it more just a way of introducing new quests and character classes?

I'm not asking these questions adversarially, I'm just curious to learn more about how it works. :smallsmile:

[RPGuru1331]

But did you have to pay £39.99 ($=?) to even get into the cinema before paying for those two hours?
Just because you get value out of that $15 odd doesn't stop the fact that you've already been charged an up front fee that you won't get back.

Play 4 hours in the first month, which is always free. Same value back.

Really, people, the cost of an MMO is negligible. If you played 2 hours a week, it'd be roughly 2 bucks an hour, or roughly the value of a short (by my standards) game. If you WILL NOT PLAY that month.. don't pay that month. There's no ideological reason to oppose the pricing of 15 a month.



For that matter, can any WoW veterans tell me how story is developed in WoW? I hear occasional things about how expansions introduce new things and new happenings, but I don't pay much attention since I'm not a player. Are those new things affecting the history of the game world in any way that the players have an active role in, or is it more just a way of introducing new quests and character classes?

Mostly, it comes out in quests. The story isn't really advanced for the world though, since then nobody could go on that quest again. Most quests don't have ties to the world at large, some (Particularly raid quests) do.

[Weiser_Cain]

If companions can server as bodyguards/healers then this is going to be the most solo friendly mmo ever.

[Jibar]

Really, people, the cost of an MMO is negligible. If you played 2 hours a week, it'd be roughly 2 bucks an hour, or roughly the value of a short (by my standards) game. If you WILL NOT PLAY that month.. don't pay that month. There's no ideological reason to oppose the pricing of 15 a month.

Ignoring the fact that you're suggesting you only pay on a monthly process instead of going with the often cheaper special duration offers, what about those people who pay the same amount as you, but then play for like 60 hours more than you in that month? And what if you want to be doing that, but due to constraints on your time you can't.
So how is it fair then that you're both paying the same amount, but you're not getting the value you could be?
How is it fair that a casual gamer has to pay just as much as a hardcore one? If I want to be playing for a couple hours a month, why have I got to pay the same as the guy who plays so much more?
A single static price for MMORPGs cannot be fair. You personally might find it fair, but you can't charge one set amount for something that can have different values drawn out of by different people.

[RPGuru1331]

Ignoring the fact that you're suggesting you only pay on a monthly process instead of going with the often cheaper special duration offers, what about those people who pay the same amount as you, but then play for like 60 hours more than you in that month? And what if you want to be doing that, but due to constraints on your time you can't.So how is it fair then that you're both paying the same amount, but you're not getting the value you could be?How is it fair that a casual gamer has to pay just as much as a hardcore one? If I want to be playing for a couple hours a month, why have I got to pay the same as the guy who plays so much more?
Life's rough, get a helmet. If you both bought Super Smash Bros. Brawl, he'd STILL get better value for his dollar. You CAN NOT GET AROUND this in a game with any replay or exploration value whatsoever. The guy who will spend more time on what he paid for gets better value for his dollar? Well, yeah. Do you have the same complaint when you pick something like SSBB, or Call of Duty, or Guild Wars, or anything else?


A single static price for MMORPGs cannot be fair. You personally might find it fair, but you can't charge one set amount for something that can have different values drawn out of by different people.
I can't? Doesn't a Star Wars Nerd get more value out of Star Wars then someone else, because they'll watch the DVD/VHS more then someone else, yet both are charged the same price? By this logic, it's not fair other people enjoy a game I don't, when we all paid the same amount for it, because they get better value for their dollar then I do.

[Athaniar]

For that matter, can any WoW veterans tell me how story is developed in WoW? I hear occasional things about how expansions introduce new things and new happenings, but I don't pay much attention since I'm not a player. Are those new things affecting the history of the game world in any way that the players have an active role in, or is it more just a way of introducing new quests and character classes?

Each new expansion, and indeed, each major patch, introduces a new piece of the overall story, and the quests and instances you do helps advance it. Still, it's nothing you do that can affect the "global" plot, only your own advancement, except for the occasional World Event, the opening of the gates of Ahn'Qiraj being the most notable, where players all over the server contributed. In the new expansion, however, I hear they are goign to improve on the story bit.

Form what BioWare has told us, I believe TOR will contain a much more developed, dare I say revolutionary, storytelling/plost progression system. Well, we'll just have to see what happens.

[Tom_Violence]

Dude, if you play for /2 hours/, you just beat the pricing on a movie. If you don't have an ideological problem with movie pricing like Grandad, then you can only lose if you /do not play the game/. 2 hours in a month does not require devotion. If you're on the internet, posting on a forum, the odds are good you have much more free time then that, and that if you like the game, you'll get even more playtime.

Apples and oranges man, you can't compare games and movies. I could play for a million hours and get less fun than a movie - it all depends on the game and the movie. 2 hours of 'generic movie fun' doesn't exist, and even if it did it couldn't be compared to 2 hours of 'generic game fun'.

Carrying on that line, even if we were to assume that 'money = time = enjoyment' then 15 a month seems ridiculous to me, especially given the general quality of MMOGs these days. Without even really getting into the thrice-damned Blatant Time Wasting Activities that are the staple of the MMOG genre, the average real game costs me about £30, lasts me a damn long time, and is usually a bloody good investment. I'll probably only buy a few a year, so the thought of buying a generally inferior one that costs around £200 for the year just doesn't appeal at all. I think these things have to put into proper comparative perspective for it to make sense.

15 a month isn't much compared to my rent, but for a game its a helluva lot. And if it means so very little to you, how about setting up a direct debit to me then, hmm? :smalltongue:

------------------

On the issue of the story, I am very curious as to how they're thinking of pulling this off. A system like that of Guild Wars, or Neverwinter Nights, or something would lend itself very well indeed to this approach, but the traditional WoW style MMOG just wouldn't cut it I don't think.

I've also been thinking that Star Wars in general just isn't suited to being a MMOG at all really. I mean, everyone just wants to be a Jedi, right? But you can't have 8 million Jedi running about the place, now, can you? Star Wars for me has always been about the immersion, but I really can't see that happening in a game like this, as MMOGs seem inherently designed to be immersion-free.

[Poison_Fish]

Uh, actually it's not apples and oranges Tom.

It's the same concept if: You pay the $12 for a Friday Night magic, instead of spending that same $12 to go see a movie. Which ever you get the most enjoyment out of is the better spent money.

That's simple economics. The comparison isn't the product. The comparison is money spent on time for entertainment. It's not generic game fun nor generic movie fun. It's just entertainment.

[Tom_Violence]

Uh, actually it's not apples and oranges Tom.

It's the same concept if: You pay the $12 for a Friday Night magic, instead of spending that same $12 to go see a movie. Which ever you get the most enjoyment out of is the better spent money.

That's simple economics. The comparison isn't the product. The comparison is money spent on time for entertainment. It's not generic game fun nor generic movie fun. It's just entertainment.

Wrong. The enjoyment I get from a game is different from the enjoyment I get from a film is different from the enjoyment I get from a book is different from the enjoyment I get from a rollercoaster. I don't sit down of a evening and think "What entertainment do I want now?", but rather "I want to play a game - what game do I want to play?" Likewise, I don't think "I rather fancy going on a rollercoaster... oh wait, I'll just read a book for 60 seconds instead, its exactly the same."

Not only are these different degrees of entertainment but they are different types of entertainment too.

[RPGuru1331]

Carrying on that line, even if we were to assume that 'money = time = enjoyment' then 15 a month seems ridiculous to me, especially given the general quality of MMOGs these days. Without even really getting into the thrice-damned Blatant Time Wasting Activities that are the staple of the MMOG genre, the average real game costs me about £30, lasts me a damn long time, and is usually a bloody good investment. I'll probably only buy a few a year, so the thought of buying a generally inferior one that costs around £200 for the year just doesn't appeal at all. I think these things have to put into proper comparative perspective for it to make sense.
Hey, if you don't like MMOGs, or don't like them as much, I *can totally respect* an unwillingness to pay for them. That's different from a blanket statement of "Paying 15 bucks a month is a deal breaker".


15 a month isn't much compared to my rent, but for a game its a helluva lot. And if it means so very little to you, how about setting up a direct debit to me then, hmm? :smalltongue:
I'm not in the business of charity

[Jibar]

And if it means so very little to you, how about setting up a direct debit to me then, hmm? :smalltongue:

Hey, I'll get in on that. :smallbiggrin:

I stopped playing WoW when I realised that I wasn't going to pay 8.99 a month when I'd only run like one instance in that time and spend the rest of it dressing my character up. It's just not worth it. I'll stick with all those free online character customisers, and just buy a proper game instead. Then I can play whenever I like, for however long I like, without having to pay someone for unnecessary fillers between the core part of the game.
Ya know, like I should be with KOTOR III. :smallmad:

[SmartAlec]

Not only are these different degrees of entertainment but they are different types of entertainment too.

If we're going to take that route, then it would seem that you can't even categorise things in terms of 'game', 'book', 'movie'. The experience from a single-player game is very different from an MMOG, so comparing them would seem to be as erroneous as games and movies.

[RPGuru1331]

Hey, I'll get in on that.
Do you have something to sell me? Just because it's peanuts doesn't mean I give it out to randoms for nothing.


Ya know, like I should be with KOTOR III. :smallmad:

....Because you're just going to spend all that time dressing up? Then why do you need the game? Play your character customizers and Single Player games instead; Quit whining about a game proper that you won't care about.

...Or were you going to play the game for reals?

[Poison_Fish]

Wrong. The enjoyment I get from a game is different from the enjoyment I get from a film is different from the enjoyment I get from a book is different from the enjoyment I get from a rollercoaster. I don't sit down of a evening and think "What entertainment do I want now?", but rather "I want to play a game - what game do I want to play?" Likewise, I don't think "I rather fancy going on a rollercoaster... oh wait, I'll just read a book for 60 seconds instead, its exactly the same."

Not only are these different degrees of entertainment but they are different types of entertainment too.

Actually, Tom, I'm not wrong.

If you have to decide to either 1. go see a movie or 2. go play a game, which do you choose? Whichever you choose to do, that has more value then the other, since you made the choice to go and do it.

Yes, value changes depending on mood and what other presences are around. But the direct comparison works. You can't just say Gaming value and Movie value are different to refute a comparison, since it's all still value. Ultimately when it comes to a choice between the two, that value will apply.

You can like both movies and games. You might also have a different degree of entertainment. But throw it up in a head to head comparison and then this will apply.

Now, as to how realistically this happens? It doesn't happen much. That's why it usually is a no issue. There are exceptions everywhere that are personal to each individual.

Edit: Got rid of a sentence that I didn't intend.

[Jibar]

....Because you're just going to spend all that time dressing up? Then why do you need the game? Play your character customizers and Single Player games instead; Quit whining about a game proper that you won't care about.

...Or were you going to play the game for reals?

I was going to play the game when I want, for however long I want, without having to pay for this apparant privaledge, and get the proper resolution to a plot line that got stopped brutally by a change in the demographics.

[RPGuru1331]

I was going to play the game when I want, for however long I want, without having to pay for this apparant privaledge, and get the proper resolution to a plot line that got stopped brutally by a change in the demographics.

You say you stopped playing WoW because you weren't really playing it, no? I can agree iwth not paying for a game you're not playing; That's just common sense. You say you would play this game. Where's the problem with paying for it? I know it's not this nonsense about "OH NOZE SOMEONE ELSE GETS BETTER VALUE", because that happened when you bought KOTOR 1 and it didn't bother you then. And you seem to be treating the KotOR MMO in a fashiont hat would say that, indeed, it's got actually worth 15 bucks. And there's really no ideological basis in being against it, because new content, bug fixes, and patches come with that money.

So what's the problem?

[Tom_Violence]

@Poison Fish - The direct comparison falls apart as soon as you try and quantify it, as RPGuru did when he said that 2 hours of game for $15 beats a movie. Unless you have a formula for how much 'enjoyment' an hour of 'game' gives, and another for how much an hour of 'movie' gives, then you can't start totalling up numbers like that. And if you had such a formula I'd still say you should throw it out the window because you're comparing across categories.

I also couldn't help but notice that you abstracted things even further by referring to 'value' instead of even 'enjoyment'. This makes me think we may have gone off the point somewhat, as this seems more about making decisions rather than judging quality. Example: I want to sit down and play the Baldur's Gate games from start finish, but I haven't slept in a week, so I decide to go to bed. Obviously here sleep has more value for me, but it would be absurd to say that that night's sleep is better than those games, because the comparison just doesn't make sense. This is analogous (hopefully) to RPGuru's claim that money into game X is better than money into movie Y, i.e. it is comparing across categories willy nilly.

[Jibar]

So what's the problem?

It's not KOTOR III.
It's KOTOR the MMORPG.
I want a game where I buy it once, play it through, single player.
I want it set a couple years after KOTOR II.
I want a proper story driven game.
I want Revan.

[King_of_GRiffins]

Could we please move the conversation about the value of MMO's with pay-per-month be moved elsewhere? I'd love to get engaged in that argument, but I'd really like to hear more about KotOR here.

While I'm not really into the cartoon style that's going on at the moment, it's not eye-piercing intolerable. I could stick with it and not be incredibly displeased. I would like to see a different clothing set for Jedi and related other than the currently presented X-color and gray jumpsuit. Cartoon or no, it's tacky :smalltongue:

Lightsabers, as pointed out, are in fact freakishly large, as seen in the force-choke screen shot (Force Choke (http://www.massively.com/photos/star-wars-the-old-republic-1/1111062/)). Take a look; He's barely got his hand around the darn thing. Aside from being a bit long, it's way too thick. It'll look a bit normal once the circumference shrinks.

Playing different races would certainly be a plus, as long as some context comes along for them. I've rarely seen and probably never heard the names of any of the Starwars' other species except for what I've seen too much of. I'd like to know when choosing something what they've been up to all this time I haven't been looking.

As far as the story-telling aspect goes, I feel bioware will defiently do a good job of making sure everyone feels like they're in their own story. What I'm concerned about is that this story won't have any effect on the over-arching story. We know the conflict: Sith versus Republic. There's no doubt the players will be a part of it, but how much can they end up affecting it? Can they get the Sith Lords to repent for their ways and turn to the light side? Would that kind of success be a permanent part of the universe, or just an event flag with Light-side written on it in the players own story? Will players be able to have a serious impact on events that occurs? If a battle breaks out on a planet, how do you insure every player gets their chance to take part in it without undoing the success or failure of other players? I believe they can do what they've advertised so far for story, I'm uncertain about what I'm hoping they'll do with it.

[Tom_Violence]

As far as the story-telling aspect goes, I feel bioware will defiently do a good job of making sure everyone feels like they're in their own story. What I'm concerned about is that this story won't have any effect on the over-arching story. We know the conflict: Sith versus Republic. There's no doubt the players will be a part of it, but how much can they end up affecting it? Can they get the Sith Lords to repent for their ways and turn to the light side? Would that kind of success be a permanent part of the universe, or just an event flag with Light-side written on it in the players own story? Will players be able to have a serious impact on events that occurs? If a battle breaks out on a planet, how do you insure every player gets their chance to take part in it without undoing the success or failure of other players? I believe they can do what they've advertised so far for story, I'm uncertain about what I'm hoping they'll do with it.

This would be one of my biggest concerns as well, to the extent that I see really no point in getting into the game if you can't actually affect it in any way. The KotOR games have always been so very story-driven, and epic story at that, that to not be able to be really a part of the grand scheme of things would seem impotent. Star Wars in general has always been (for me at least) about a real focus on characters at the heart of the action, and the KotOR games have pushed that to the limits by focusing on literally the two most powerful people of its time period and having you play as them. And that's been a large part of their brilliance. I can't help but feel that one of the worst things that could come of this would be turning the great Sith war dealy into a themepark ride, with everyone and their goat queueing up for their go on it.

Galaxies sucked the atmosphere right out of Star Wars in an instant by having towns chock full of clowns prancing around showing off their leetness, lolling their heads off, pet Rancor in tow. Call me crazy, but I don't quite remember that bit in the movies. I can't see this new game being any different, unless they do something drastic.

[SmartAlec]

Star Wars in general has always been (for me at least) about a real focus on characters at the heart of the action, and the KotOR games have pushed that to the limits by focusing on literally the two most powerful people of its time period and having you play as them.

WoW has its' big-time heroes and its' major villains too, and the game's focus upon them is not particularly dimmed by them not being played by players.


It's not KOTOR III.
It's KOTOR the MMORPG.
I want a game where I buy it once, play it through, single player.
I want it set a couple years after KOTOR II.
I want a proper story driven game.
I want Revan.

Personally, I think the uncover-what-happened-three-hundred-years-later angle was probably the best approach to finishing the KOTOR saga. The end of KOTOR2 really wrote the story into a corner.

[Zarah]

It's not KOTOR III.
It's KOTOR the MMORPG.
I want a game where I buy it once, play it through, single player.
I want it set a couple years after KOTOR II.
I want a proper story driven game.
I want Revan.

I agree with you on everything except the last point. To me, Revan's chapter in the galaxy is over. They shouldn't bring him back, for any reason. He did what he had to do, left on a high note, and that's that. That's what makes him so cool. To focus any more on him would just dilute his impact on the fanbase. The same thing has happened with nearly countless characters in the SW universe. Unless they decide to make a prequel or something, I don't think we'll be seeing Revan in another KotOR game. But a prequel seems just as unlikely, since the new comics are already screwing with so much of the established canon it almost makes me sick to my stomach. Malak's real name alone is enough to make puppies cry.


Anyway, back to the MMO. There's a few things that I feel I need to express. First of all, I think some people are expecting too much from this game. When you look at an MMO, especially one that claims to be "story driven," it requires a certain suspension of disbelief. Lord of the Rings Online is a big one of these. The fact that I saw Aragorn in the Prancing Pony and Rivendell at the same time isn't exactly immersive, but if you acknowledge the way they developers have to design the game, then you can forgive things like that. This applies to the players as well. Obviously, most of the people there probably don't care about the SW universe, and are playing for the sake of playing, not for the sake of story. You just sort of need to ignore it and look beyond it. Maybe that sounds like a cop-out of the argument, but it's the way I've been looking at it since I started playing MMOs back with Galaxies. If you're that worried about being immersed in the game, then try to surround yourself with others who think the same way. It can't be perfect, but as I said, you need to put some of your expectations at the door.

Secondly, I agree with everyone complaining about the art style. As I said on another forum, "I really don't understand why everyone who designs an MMO these days are so obsessed with making it look distinct from other MMOs. Maybe if you tried coming up with some new gameplay mechanics rather than jacking them all from other MMOs, you wouldn't have to work so hard to make a new wrapping paper so players don't realize they're playing the same game." I'll wait to see if they improve it any more, but so far, I don't like what I see.

Thirdly, one thing they really need to do with this game is not pull a WoW move and make starting races/classes automatically allied with the Republic or the Sith. That is just downright silly. That was one thing that Galaxies did right, in that you could choose to ally yourself with the Alliance or the Empire at any given time in your character's development. You could also act as a covert or overt member, so you could potentially be a Rebel, and no one would know. It was an interesting part of the game, and one that I haven't really seen a lot of since then. But then, I don't follow the MMO scene very much, so what do I know?

[Weiser_Cain]

WoW has its' big-time heroes and its' major villains too, and the game's focus upon them is not particularly dimmed by them not being played by players.



Personally, I think the uncover-what-happened-three-hundred-years-later angle was probably the best approach to finishing the KOTOR saga. The end of KOTOR2 really wrote the story into a corner.
Kotor 2 didn't have an end, it just stopped.

[King_of_GRiffins]

Kotor 2 didn't have an end, it just stopped.

I think on that note, I have to agree. Looking back, while the game may have ended, it didn't feel like the story stopped one bit. It felt like it should have continued on towards the Main Character heading into the depths of space, discovering the Sith Empire, Revan, and badies that have wanted to take down the republic for a good long time.

Still, 300 years in the future when the Sith do invade is a pretty good place to pick up. This is what the plot of KotOR was hinting at. Revan was attacking the Galaxy so it wouldn't stumble right into the hands of the Sith later on, etc.



Anyway, back to the MMO. There's a few things that I feel I need to express. First of all, I think some people are expecting too much from this game. When you look at an MMO, especially one that claims to be "story driven," it requires a certain suspension of disbelief. Lord of the Rings Online is a big one of these. The fact that I saw Aragorn in the Prancing Pony and Rivendell at the same time isn't exactly immersive, but if you acknowledge the way they developers have to design the game, then you can forgive things like that. This applies to the players as well. Obviously, most of the people there probably don't care about the SW universe, and are playing for the sake of playing, not for the sake of story. You just sort of need to ignore it and look beyond it. Maybe that sounds like a cop-out of the argument, but it's the way I've been looking at it since I started playing MMOs back with Galaxies. If you're that worried about being immersed in the game, then try to surround yourself with others who think the same way. It can't be perfect, but as I said, you need to put some of your expectations at the door.

Agreed. Though, if your expecting something or have to leave something at the door, you're not immersed :smalltongue: If you lay the story out in the form of an MMO game, you do at some point realize that you're not moving at the same pace as the story. Suspension of disbelief is required in order to immerse oneself into a game, any game, but in an MMO it's done most easily by playing with other people who want to take some time and immerse themselves as well. An MMO requires some kind of social aspect in order to create immersion.



Secondly, I agree with everyone complaining about the art style. As I said on another forum, "I really don't understand why everyone who designs an MMO these days are so obsessed with making it look distinct from other MMOs. Maybe if you tried coming up with some new gameplay mechanics rather than jacking them all from other MMOs, you wouldn't have to work so hard to make a new wrapping paper so players don't realize they're playing the same game." I'll wait to see if they improve it any more, but so far, I don't like what I see.

Agreed again. Though a distinction can be made between MMO's through art, it doesn't help to make that the only distinguishing factor. Less budget should go towards creating a brand new style, and more should go towards actual enjoyable gameplay, which I'm hoping will be the case for The Old Republic. However, it should at least look a bit pretty, so not all the money should be taken away from the artist :smallbiggrin:

[Anteros]

I don't get why people act like a company is "making" them pay a monthly fee. If you don't want to pay, then don't play the game. I'm more than content to pay 15 a month if it means continual quality, upkeep, and advancements like in WoW. If you aren't go play something else.

[Weiser_Cain]

It's easy, see you buy the game, and then they charge you extra so that it works from month to month.

[Athaniar]

Direct all your for/against P2P arguments here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5165657)

Now, for another topic to debate: The Sith Emperor, is he really Naga Sadow, or is IGN mistaken? If they are, who is he? I'm going with Sadow unless we get any evidence to the contrary.

[hamishspence]

According to Star wars timeline, Freedon Nadd killed Sadow, and this was well before Exar Kun's Great sith war, which was years before KOTOR 1.

Is it a prequel?

[Weiser_Cain]

Nope it's 300 years after KOTOR 2.

[Athaniar]

No no, but, as some guy pointed out, we never actually see Sadow die. And even if he did, there are many ways to elude death in the Star Wars universe.

[hamishspence]

Nihilus, Bane, and somebody else, appear to Darth Krayt in spirit form.

Death of Sadow is Sith thing- Nadd was apprentice, killed him, became The Master. However, I don't think there is novel of it- last Sadow scene is him building pyramids on Yavin IV.

[Weiser_Cain]

I wonder how deep they'll let you get into being a sith. I mean I loved KOTOR but I really didn't want to leave the sith academy on Korriban.

[King_of_GRiffins]

I wonder how deep they'll let you get into being a sith. I mean I loved KOTOR but I really didn't want to leave the sith academy on Korriban.

Aye, and having some options for being evil above just being a jerk would be quite awesome too.

[hamishspence]

Haven't actually played it, but from what I've read, game 2 encouraged you to do manipulative evil rather than brutal evil.

[King_of_GRiffins]

Correct, however, there still weren't as many opportunities for manipulation as I would have liked. That's an old gripe though. I"m just looking to see if tehy'll offer a chance to forgo brutality altogether.

[Ascension]

Haven't actually played it, but from what I've read, game 2 encouraged you to do manipulative evil rather than brutal evil.

Kreia tried to encourage you towards manipulative evil, but with the way the light side/dark side points were handed out you still had to be bloodthirsty in order to max out dark.

[Weiser_Cain]

Correct, however, there still weren't as many opportunities for manipulation as I would have liked. That's an old gripe though. I"m just looking to see if tehy'll offer a chance to forgo brutality altogether.

Or too do good things for the wrong reason. Also I want to be able to seduce droids, ok not really bu everything else. That's one hot wookie...

[Mando Knight]

Looks to me like they're going to have a large number of playable species this time around... looking at the generic avatars for the site's community, there's Ithorian, Twi'lek, Kel-Dor, and Mon Cal... and all of them are playable races in core SAGA...

...also, what's up with the Republic Whitewashed Buckethead Army?

[Tom_Violence]

Anyway, back to the MMO. There's a few things that I feel I need to express. First of all, I think some people are expecting too much from this game. When you look at an MMO, especially one that claims to be "story driven," it requires a certain suspension of disbelief. Lord of the Rings Online is a big one of these. The fact that I saw Aragorn in the Prancing Pony and Rivendell at the same time isn't exactly immersive, but if you acknowledge the way they developers have to design the game, then you can forgive things like that. This applies to the players as well. Obviously, most of the people there probably don't care about the SW universe, and are playing for the sake of playing, not for the sake of story. You just sort of need to ignore it and look beyond it. Maybe that sounds like a cop-out of the argument, but it's the way I've been looking at it since I started playing MMOs back with Galaxies. If you're that worried about being immersed in the game, then try to surround yourself with others who think the same way. It can't be perfect, but as I said, you need to put some of your expectations at the door.

I could accept this, if it were any other game series and/or any other universe. But Star Wars is something I particularly enjoy, while at the same time decent Star Wars games are relatively thin on the ground. The KotOR series was one of the best games series for a long long time, so to derail it and crowbar it into a genre which, almost by definition, is rubbish just reeks of such a wasted opportuinity.

KotOR - great story, great character interaction, great sense of immersion. Y'know, all them things what MMOGs don't have.

[Om]

Kreia tried to encourage you towards manipulative evil, but with the way the light side/dark side points were handed out you still had to be bloodthirsty in order to max out dark.The big problem I had with KotORII was that it provided benefits for maxing out dark/light side points. On my first playthrough I stuck to the whole morally ambivalent tone of the game, finishing up somewhat neutral, and it was only later that I discovered that in doing so I missed out on a powerful prestige class

And another 'Boo' for the idea of a KotOR MMO

[Kish]

Galaxies sucked the atmosphere right out of Star Wars in an instant by having towns chock full of clowns prancing around showing off their leetness, lolling their heads off, pet Rancor in tow. Call me crazy, but I don't quite remember that bit in the movies.
It's in Attack of the Clones. *ducks*

[Philistine]

Ah. So, not in one of the real movies, then?

What? Somebody had to say it.

[Flickerdart]

One of the devs had said they've been working on this since KotOR 2...but at the same time, they're only in pre-alpha? That's 3 years of work! This is going to be insane, in the good way, if it ever gets done. And from what happened to KotOR II, rushing it isn't going to make things any better.

I would prefer a normal RPG to an MMO, though, but they seem to have an interesting idea going...making Jedi vs non-Jedi balanced. The regulars were nearly worthless in the KotORs, until you raised them to Jedi.

[Sir_Hobbit]

Here (http://www.massively.com/category/star-wars-the-old-republic/)'s a collection of Massively's reports and their interviews with Bioware. It's all quite a good read, except that Bioware is saying "We have some really awesome stuff we can't show you right now." Which is understandable, given that the game was just announced, but still, a little annoying.

Also, Bioware is saying that they're going to fix the "lightsaber issue", so the fat Hasbro lightsabers are on their way out. :smallbiggrin:

[SmartAlec]

The big problem I had with KotORII was that it provided benefits for maxing out dark/light side points. On my first playthrough I stuck to the whole morally ambivalent tone of the game, finishing up somewhat neutral, and it was only later that I discovered that in doing so I missed out on a powerful prestige class

Apathy is death.

[Weiser_Cain]

I played through KOTOR 1 as myself and naturally fell to the darkside. Should I be worried?

[Weiser_Cain]

...I hope they don't mess with the d20 system too much, and I hope there's some level of freedom in multiclassing even if it is suboptimal sometimes. I'd love to be a force adept/tech specialist instead of just straight jedi/sith.

[Tom_Violence]

...I hope they don't mess with the d20 system too much, and I hope there's some level of freedom in multiclassing even if it is suboptimal sometimes. I'd love to be a force adept/tech specialist instead of just straight jedi/sith.

I kinda hope they do mess with the d20 system quite a bit actually. Not only because I'd kinda like to see something different, but I also really don't think its particularly suited to a MMOG.

[Weiser_Cain]

Clearly this can only be settled via knife fight, like they did in the beat it video.

[Sir_Hobbit]

Reading through the Massively interviews, I've come to the conclusion that the fact that it's a MMO won't be that big of a problem. Because honestly, they seem to be making a mmoRPG, as opposed to a MMOrpg. There seems to be minimal MMO features.

1. The world changes based on your decision. If you kick a noble in the nads and get locked out of his palace, and your friend needs help with a quest in the palace later, then your paths divert and it messes up group questing.

2. They've said that there's "completely different content and storyline" for each class, and that there will be moments "interspersed where you team up with other players for epic moments".

I'm paraphrasing, but it seems that they're sacrificing parts of the MMO for the story. Which is really fine with me, personally.

I'm putting the seems in because Bioware is making lots of campaign promises, that I doubt they can deliver in their first term. Hey, they may suprise me, but they're making lots of juicy promises, like that the game has the content of ten KotOR sequels combined, or the content of all of their past games combined.

[SilverSheriff]

Can I get some links to these interviews?

[Tom_Violence]

Reading through the Massively interviews, I've come to the conclusion that the fact that it's a MMO won't be that big of a problem. Because honestly, they seem to be making a mmoRPG, as opposed to a MMOrpg. There seems to be minimal MMO features.

1. The world changes based on your decision. If you kick a noble in the nads and get locked out of his palace, and your friend needs help with a quest in the palace later, then your paths divert and it messes up group questing.

2. They've said that there's "completely different content and storyline" for each class, and that there will be moments "interspersed where you team up with other players for epic moments".

I'm paraphrasing, but it seems that they're sacrificing parts of the MMO for the story. Which is really fine with me, personally.

I'm putting the seems in because Bioware is making lots of campaign promises, that I doubt they can deliver in their first term. Hey, they may suprise me, but they're making lots of juicy promises, like that the game has the content of ten KotOR sequels combined, or the content of all of their past games combined.

It does sound like there's still an awful lot of infomation required as to what the hell Bioware are actually making. Back when it was first announced it was a 'Star Wars MMOG'. Then there were rumours that it was actually gonna be something very different from traditional MMOGs. Then we got confirmation that it is, indeed, a MMOG. Now we're hearing that no actually, its not quite.

If its a WoW-clone then it will be terrible. If its a major rewrite of the MMOG rules to make something genuinely distinct and actually good, then woohoo.

[Jibar]

I...

Hmmm...

If it's more like Guild Wars, a single payment, largely single player with some multiplayer elements...
I could actually go for that.

If you could take quests, form a party and all... but then found a friend of yours about who could help you out, that would be fine.

It doesn't stop the plot and appearence choices from sucking though.

[Flickerdart]

I played through KOTOR 1 as myself and naturally fell to the darkside. Should I be worried?
It's the people around you that should be worried.

[Tom_Violence]

I...

Hmmm...

If it's more like Guild Wars, a single payment, largely single player with some multiplayer elements...
I could actually go for that.

If you could take quests, form a party and all... but then found a friend of yours about who could help you out, that would be fine.

It doesn't stop the plot and appearence choices from sucking though.

Indeed. Though along these lines its starting to sound less and less like a MMOG and more like an RPG with some decent heavy multiplayer options. Kinda like how Diablo isn't a MMOG but can be played with a bajillion people.

[Sir_Hobbit]

Can I get some links to these interviews?

Sorry, I linked on the page before this one.

Here (http://www.massively.com/category/star-wars-the-old-republic/) would be where you could find those interviews, interspersed with a few opinion posts.

[Weiser_Cain]

It's the people around you that should be worried.

Hey I gave them every chance to get the hell out of my way.

[Tom_Violence]

I was just reading the bit about Companion Characters, and got this lovely quote:
James Olen, Studio Creative Director:We want them to be more than pets, we want them to be virtual friends.

Suddenly this new game sounds like the most depressing place in the world.

Also, it was all going quite well until I stumbled across this one:

James Olen, Studio Creative Director: Yeah, our game is about loot. There are things in our game that as you progress you definitely can tell a new player from a high-level player.

Oh dear. Its gonna be another fashion show.

[Om]

Oh dear. Its gonna be another fashion show.Unlikely given that every high class Sith will be wandering around in identical hooded robes of darkest night. The only way to tell them apart will be the menacing masks

[Tom_Violence]

Unlikely given that every high class Sith will be wandering around in identical hooded robes of darkest night. The only way to tell them apart will be the menacing masks

If the Matrix Online can turn into a fashion show without everyone just dressing up like the obvious character then Star Wars can manage it too. :smalltongue:

[Sir_Hobbit]

I was just reading the bit about Companion Characters, and got this lovely quote:
James Olen, Studio Creative Director:We want them to be more than pets, we want them to be virtual friends.

Suddenly this new game sounds like the most depressing place in the world.

Also, it was all going quite well until I stumbled across this one:

James Olen, Studio Creative Director: Yeah, our game is about loot. There are things in our game that as you progress you definitely can tell a new player from a high-level player.

Oh dear. Its gonna be another fashion show.

Well, in the past KotOR games, your companions have been developed and three-dimensional, not like combat pets at all, which I HOPE is what Mr. James Olen was wanting to say. But hey, if you want that wookie to be your virtual friend, by all means, man. Tell him about your relationship problems, he'll help...

I'm also a big fan of not wearing the same freaking black robes from level 1 to level 100, so I'm in agreement with Mr. Olen in looks progression. I want to eventually look different than that level 3 schmoe, y'know?

...Ok, ok, fine, I just want to host a Sith fashion show. You got me. :smallwink:

[Jibar]

But hey, if you want that wookie to be your virtual friend, by all means, man. Tell him about your relationship problems, he'll help...

And now we know how Han Solo was such a hit with the ladies.
It's the giant hairy creature. It has to be.
That's a million times worse than I meant.
:tongue:

[Weiser_Cain]

Alternately I'd like the option to look as I please. Not every great hero or villain is covered with widgets.

[ALOR]

I.....I never thought i would buy into a mmo........but this.......this just looks so win. :smallbiggrin:

[harsh realm]

1. If they are keeping 2 Companion Characters and there is a 30 man raid you will have 90 player controlled characters very quickly. This seems like it could get crowded. If these characters are important to the story how will they be distinguished during raids(or whatever they have)? It would be strange to show up to a 30 person raid only to have 30 Bastila clones there.(don't even go there perv) On the other hand, if they are all unique then how will they be incorporated into the story (so that they will be your 'friends')?

2. Story wise, it requires more than just suspension of disbelief to enjoy being the 525 guy to steal the one of a kind very important plans, taking the enemy by surprise because they didn't figure out to bar the door the first 254 times. It is one thing when a story breaks the rules of your world and requires suspension of disbelief. It is something else when a story breaks its own rules and becomes internally incoherent.

I don't see an easy way to overcome this in the standard model of mmos. I do see a hard way though.

[King_of_GRiffins]

1. If they are keeping 2 Companion Characters and there is a 30 man raid you will have 90 player controlled characters very quickly. This seems like it could get crowded. If these characters are important to the story how will they be distinguished during raids(or whatever they have)? It would be strange to show up to a 30 person raid only to have 30 Bastila clones there.(don't even go there perv) On the other hand, if they are all unique then how will they be incorporated into the story (so that they will be your 'friends')?

2. Story wise, it requires more than just suspension of disbelief to enjoy being the 525 guy to steal the one of a kind very important plans, taking the enemy by surprise because they didn't figure out to bar the door the first 254 times. It is one thing when a story breaks the rules of your world and requires suspension of disbelief. It is something else when a story breaks its own rules and becomes internally incoherent.

I don't see an easy way to overcome this in the standard model of mmos. I do see a hard way though.

It would be absolutely awful if there were 'repeat' companions. Nothing would break suspension of disbelief more than having 200 doubles running about, unless there was a very clear reason why it was happening, though it better not happen more than once or twice. Having a 'clone' follow you about would be an interesting character, but only once.

Where the balance will be between personal and world actions will be important. You can't deprive all but one group of people of an event, but allowing everyone to relive the same event for all eternity devalues the events purpose. -Nobody- ever wants to do "kill 10 rats" ever again because there's not value in doing so; The same would build up for killing the Sith Emperor and not finishing the job for the 100th time because he's immortal.

[Weiser_Cain]

I don't want space to just be for traveling and dogfights, I'd like to be able to hang out there and have enough adventures there that I could ignore the planets.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I don't know if I'm psyched or disappointed. On the one hand I like taking a step back away from the epic quests to just be an ordinary member of the community in a MMO (I'm the kind of person who gets sucked into things like boosting trade or becoming the best blacksmith around or etc.). Granted, this is hard considering that most other players in MMOG (even on 'role-play servers') think of it as just a Game without the Role-Playing part in front of it. (God dammit! I choose role-play for a reason, role-play you swine!) On the other hand it's the story of KOTOR that has me sucked into it. I couldn't stop playing those games because of the story and wanna know what happens next.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'll play SW: TOR if it looks good, and hope Bioware can actually involve a storyline in a MMOG, but I'm holdin' out for KOTOR III, Mass Effect II, or a Mass Effect MMOG since that'd be a better fit for the MMOG-type then Star Wars.

[Sir_Hobbit]

1. If they are keeping 2 Companion Characters

Nope, sorry bud, in the current design it's one companion at a time. Not total, but at a time, you can swap them out.

As an aside, on multiple companion characters, I really have no idea how Bioware can handle it. Maybe hiding other companions if you have one out, but then when you group up with other players, it would screw things up.

Also, I will love this game forever if I get a jawa companion. Do it, Bioware, and make him a freaking Sith Lord. :smallyuk:

[Mr. Mud]

Its probably been posted somewhere, but I don't really have the... best... graphics card (I think vista rates it like a 3.9-40 :smallconfused:)... But I can run CoD4 errorlessly, and I haven't really had graphics issues thus far...

Will I run into any graphical errors? I mean it hopefully isn't one of the sterotypical "awe-gasimic-a-tastic" games is it :smalleek:.

[Weiser_Cain]

I don't have a graphics card at the moment but the best designed game in my opinion work and look good on a wide range of systems.

[Weiser_Cain]

Video
http://www.videogaming247.com/2008/10/27/star-wars-the-old-republic-the-entire-reveal-presentation-in-video/

[Gaelbert]

KOTOR is my favorite game ever. But I refuse to play MMOs that I have to pay for. What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable barrier? I crack and buy it, that's what. That's what I'm thinking will happen, anyways.

Combat. They obviously can't go with the combat system from the last two games. Anyone have an idea of how they might handle it?

Also, something I'm wondering about, involving discussions with Canderous from the first game. Very minor spoiler.
Canderous talks about seeing something, a spaceship, frozen in an asteroid field out in the far reache of space before it flies away. Anyone have an idea of what it might be? Or if it is at all related to this MMO's plot at all? Sith Empire, perhaps?

Which raises another question. I thought the True Sith were from before the KOTOR games, or am I wrong?

[Weiser_Cain]

I doubt they had anything planned that far back beyond 'there's more out there than you know'.
Yes, the true Sith are from before KOTOR.

[Weiser_Cain]

I don't see why they couldn't go with a modified version of the KOTOR system. Take out the pause and tweak the action cue and you have a nice thing.
Keep the auto-attack AI setting and you're one up on all the other mmo's. I have bad joints so would love to not have to tap '1' and '2' repeatedly for the first ten levels.

[Zarah]

Canderous talks about seeing something, a spaceship, frozen in an asteroid field out in the far reache of space before it flies away. Anyone have an idea of what it might be? Or if it is at all related to this MMO's plot at all? Sith Empire, perhaps?

I think it's been pretty much confirmed that what Canderous saw was a Yuuzhan Vong ship that had been sent to scout the galaxy for invasion. So no, it has nothing to do with the "real Sith." Unless by some strange twist of fate, the Vong is what Revan was talking about when he left to the Unknown Regions.

And if that's the case, then I hereby refuse to let the KotOR era be considered canon anymore.

[harsh realm]

I will love this game forever if I get a jawa companion. Do it, Bioware, and make him a freaking Sith Lord.

Jawa Sith. This is one of those best combinations ever. Up there with peanut butter and jelly. They already have the robe! They just have to color it black.

When there are enough of them they can face off against an army of whatever yoda's race was (sorry for not knowing my star wars):

A Thousand diminutive force users charge each other with light sabers churning. Shouting their poor grammar under a waning sun.

And every second a whirl of a light saber. Like an impatient second hand that cannot bear its duty to mark the moment when another small life is cut...all too short.

'ding ding' said the Sith Lord.
'ding ding'.

Yea, that would almost make up for ep1 2 & 3.

[Weiser_Cain]

Anyone catch that jawa seem to remember all the old empires from before?

[Gaelbert]

I think it's been pretty much confirmed that what Canderous saw was a Yuuzhan Vong ship that had been sent to scout the galaxy for invasion. So no, it has nothing to do with the "real Sith." Unless by some strange twist of fate, the Vong is what Revan was talking about when he left to the Unknown Regions.

And if that's the case, then I hereby refuse to let the KotOR era be considered canon anymore.

Really? Wow, I must say I actually called it if that is the case. But then I thought that it was too unrealistic.

[Sir_Hobbit]

Jawa Sith. This is one of those best combinations ever. Up there with peanut butter and jelly. They already have the robe! They just have to color it black.

When there are enough of them they can face off against an army of whatever yoda's race was (sorry for not knowing my star wars):

A Thousand diminutive force users charge each other with light sabers churning. Shouting their poor grammar under a waning sun.

And every second a whirl of a light saber. Like an impatient second hand that cannot bear its duty to mark the moment when another small life is cut...all too short.

'ding ding' said the Sith Lord.
'ding ding'.

Yea, that would almost make up for ep1 2 & 3.


Mass-market this series' Jawas and Yoda-race as plushies and you have a global phenomenon there.

Also, there must be a Sith Lord Jawa leading the other Sith Jawas. Darth Jibber? Darth Minili?

But, um, yeah, about the KotOR MMO. I'm curious about this "true Sith" thing. After hearing about the announcement of SW:tOR, I decided to read about the garbled mess that is most Star Wars lore. Apparently, the true Sith are a primitive people that the dark jedi enslaved. Good as grunts, I guess, but antagonists? Probably not.

The question must be asked; who is the current Sith Lord? It's somewhat of a make-or-break thing for this game. We'll see if the new Sith-in-chief measures up to Revan and Malak.

[Weiser_Cain]

Gah, I drew a jawa sith but my image host is down...

[hamishspence]

I remember hypothesising about a Darth Wicket "Yub yub! Bwah ha ha!"

[blackout]

KotOR MMO.

Awesomeness.

Incarnate.

There are no other ways to describe it. It...It's digital heaven.

[Weiser_Cain]

Forgive the imageshack My ISP appears to be broken.

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/8980/jawasithva2.jpg (http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jawasithva2.jpg)
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/jawasithva2.jpg/1/w380.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img221/jawasithva2.jpg/1/)

[purple gelatinous cube o' Doom]

Now, I really do like the KotOR games, and the Star Wars games in general are usually quite well done. But, until someone proves to me that an MMO is going to be more than a hack and slash questy type game, I just can't bring myself to get interested in it. Personally the company that originally was making LOTRO seemed to have promise, but once they were bought out by Turbine, the game went down hill quickly in my opinion. If this is the game to do it, then by all means, sign me up. But I won't believe it can be done until I see it.

[Sir_Hobbit]

Forgive the imageshack My ISP appears to be broken.

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/8980/jawasithva2.jpg (http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jawasithva2.jpg)
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/jawasithva2.jpg/1/w380.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img221/jawasithva2.jpg/1/)

So very, very awesome. I'd just suggest giving him a big cloak, because a lot of the charm of Jawas is the fact that you really have no idea what's there under that robe.

But yes, I believe we can all agree to worship Darth Wicket as our Sith Overlord. :smallbiggrin:

Would you mind if I sig'd him?

[Weiser_Cain]

So very, very awesome. I'd just suggest giving him a big cloak, because a lot of the charm of Jawas is the fact that you really have no idea what's there under that robe.

But yes, I believe we can all agree to worship Darth Wicket as our Sith Overlord. :smallbiggrin:

Would you mind if I sig'd him?

Go nuts, I'm not very protective of my stuff.

[Weiser_Cain]

http://kotaku.com/5075263/biowares-halloweeners-mock-their-own-giant-lightsabers