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Zen Master
2008-10-22, 02:10 AM
I would like to know from someone who has played the game, how melee works. Reading the book, it seems terribly lack-luster.

Now, in 40K, melee is deadly. So I guess I'm just missing something. Can anyone shed some light here?

Nerd-o-rama
2008-10-22, 02:13 AM
Dark Heresy doesn't have Chainswords?

Kiero
2008-10-22, 05:44 AM
Dark Heresy doesn't have Chainswords?

Course it does. And power swords.

loopy
2008-10-22, 05:59 AM
Course it does. And power swords.

Don't forget the force-weapons.

SolkaTruesilver
2008-10-22, 06:09 AM
Na, no Force Weapons for Dark Heresy..

And all of these nice weapons aren't used until some time (except if your DM allow training and special talents), 'cause only advanced careers can learn how to use those...

HtH combat in Dark Heresy can be quite useful against heavy weapons. My players should have learned to charge the Gun Servitors, hehe... But outside of this, it's merely used to distract the ennemies from using the big guns, I agree.

On the other hand, guns are quite kickasses in that game. So you win a lot more than you loose..

(if you want nice HtH combat, go to Warhammer Fantasy)

Attilargh
2008-10-22, 06:45 AM
Now, in 40K, melee is deadly.
Only because your average longarm packs no more punch than, well, a punch.

SolkaTruesilver
2008-10-22, 07:08 AM
Ok. First, to the op, I had to tell that melee in 40k is also very deadly. People have usually 10-14 hit points, and most weapon do 1d10+(4 or 5) damage.

Off course, there is toughness and armor that offer some damage resistance. But when you roll a 10, you may re-roll for another damage. That can turn into a 1-hit kill very easily.

Off course, guns are the same... :smallbiggrin:

Zen Master
2008-10-22, 08:26 AM
Ok. First, to the op, I had to tell that melee in 40k is also very deadly. People have usually 10-14 hit points, and most weapon do 1d10+(4 or 5) damage.

Off course, there is toughness and armor that offer some damage resistance. But when you roll a 10, you may re-roll for another damage. That can turn into a 1-hit kill very easily.

Off course, guns are the same... :smallbiggrin:

Ok - here's a bit of elaboration from me.

Say I swing a sword at a guy. His armor counts couble, cause he is after all in flak, and I'm using a primitive weapon. He takes ... well, a bit of damage.

Now say I'm 5 yards removed from the same guy, and I let loose with my autogun. On full auto. I will tear the poor lad to shreds.

Now, really ... as it appears to me, I'll spend maybe 5 rounds killing a guy with a sword - what with his armor counting double, my attacks being prone to parries, and the fact that I can't use full auto with a sword.

With an autogun - he's toast. It's all but insta-gib, unless I manage to miss even with the bonuses for full auto and point blank range.

Am I missing something important?

Zen Master
2008-10-22, 08:28 AM
Dark Heresy doesn't have Chainswords?

Oh and yes - there are chain swords. And they are slightly nasty, rolling two dice and picking the highest. But so what? With a combat shotgun, I can reduce to a fine red mist what a chainsword will only carve up badly, possibly fatally.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-10-22, 09:37 AM
Why does flak armor count double? Maybe they're working from some weird definition of the word, but a flak jacket was supposed to protect from low-speed projectiles, i.e. shrapnel. Later the term has come to refer to bulletproof vests (flak vest).

BRC
2008-10-22, 09:40 AM
Ok - here's a bit of elaboration from me.

Say I swing a sword at a guy. His armor counts couble, cause he is after all in flak, and I'm using a primitive weapon. He takes ... well, a bit of damage.

Now say I'm 5 yards removed from the same guy, and I let loose with my autogun. On full auto. I will tear the poor lad to shreds.

Now, really ... as it appears to me, I'll spend maybe 5 rounds killing a guy with a sword - what with his armor counting double, my attacks being prone to parries, and the fact that I can't use full auto with a sword.

With an autogun - he's toast. It's all but insta-gib, unless I manage to miss even with the bonuses for full auto and point blank range.

Am I missing something important?
Because there is a reason that guns replaced swords.

Neo
2008-10-22, 09:44 AM
in Dark Heresy any weapon with the Primitive attribute counts the targets armor value as double, unless it too is primitive I believe.

Efil
2008-10-22, 09:48 AM
What about the Mono upgrade? It makes a Primitive melee weapon not Primitive plus a nice 2 AP.

Swordguy
2008-10-22, 10:00 AM
There is NO reason whatsoever, if you're playing a melee character, not to spend the extra Thrones at game-on to make your melee weapons mono-weapons. It's 30 or 40 Thrones per weapon, but they lose the "primitive" quality for purposes of armor counting double against them (so Weapon Prof Primitive still lets you use them).

Zenos
2008-10-22, 10:16 AM
Strange, with a chainsword I am able to, with chainsword and one of those bonus damage talents, I do 1D10 (tearing, so roll two dice and take the highest rolling) + 10 damage.

Zen Master
2008-10-22, 12:31 PM
Because there is a reason that guns replaced swords.

Well - in real life, they did. But in the year 40.000, under the iron rule of the Emperor and his Adeptus - they didn't.

No, really - the mechanics for melee need to work in this game. And they truly need to be quite terribly extreme, for in order to get into melee range, you need to cross the point blank range of the combat shotgun I mentioned earlier.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-10-22, 12:36 PM
Well, now it makes sense. You would have to be an idiot to use a 40,000+ year-old weapon technology against modern armor. Monoweapons ftw.

Zen Master
2008-10-22, 12:39 PM
What about the Mono upgrade? It makes a Primitive melee weapon not Primitive plus a nice 2 AP.

While this is true, and it does somewhat to diminish the gap in damage between melee and ranged - and yet, well, suppose you take all the skills and talents for ranged, and compare them to all the skills and talents for wielding two ranged weapons.

I think you can get to five attacks with melee weapons. Something like that, I'm not entirely sure on all the options.

With shockgloves you can fire two of those combat shotguns, for two bursts of 3 shots each, and each shot can hit twice, for something like twelve possible hits.

Or you can do the same with two autoguns - they can hit up to ten times, each.

Not that I'm saying full-auto fire shouldn't be highly undesirable to be in the receiving end of. But Warhammer 40K - the foundation upon which Dark Heresu is built - just places melee as the prime choice for taking out difficult single targets, and gunfire for mowing down mobs of easy once (pretty much, at least).

So I just wonder ... if I've understood how the rules work correctly.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-10-22, 12:45 PM
Actually, Dark Heresy is based more on Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, surely? And there's no position as favorable in WFRP as being about a musket's range from your enemy, with a whole lot of loaded muskets... and just about every character, if you're optimizing, would want Specialty Weapon (Gunpowder) and about three or four loaded braces (pairs) of dueling pistols.

I can't see why a different game should reflect another different game, really. It's supposed to be a gritty and lethal game. Guns are lethal. Bringing a knife to a gunfight gets you killed.

In almost every game with remotely realistic combat rules, melee combined with stealth (also known as "using your head") is lethal. Trying to run at a gun-toting enemy while waving a sword? That's lethal to you.

Lazy Zomb
2008-10-22, 12:48 PM
Pointblank is three meters... Not hard to get past. Though I guess the next turn they could move and shoot...

A melee-based character should have a strenght in the 30s, probably right below Weapon skill and toughness. Basic melee weapons are the sword (1d10), Ax (1d10+1), and the hammer (1d10+1). So, assuming mono, a flak covered target will probably have about 3-4 armour (2-3 toughness, maybe 4, 3 flak). Average attack will be 8.5 or 9.5 depending on the weapon choice (and not counting divine fury or whatever 10s are called), which means three to four hits to take down a target...

On the other hand, melee shuts down non-pistol automatic fire, and you get a free hit if someone tries to get away from you. So... Shotgun and pistol wielders=death, everyone else=fine targets. In the beginning anyhow.

Our Feral world guard did pretty decent with his hammer. Of course, he also got his leg punched off.

MeklorIlavator
2008-10-22, 12:51 PM
Also, don't most melee heavy units in WH40k have special stuff that makes them stronger/harder to hit/more durable? I mean, the Space Marines have power armor, the tryanids have numbers, chaos has power armor+the power of Chaos, and Orks is da biggest and da strongest! For your average Human, though, guns are definitely better.

Zenos
2008-10-22, 01:04 PM
Yeah, you have to have some special squalities (like, say, 60 strenght, high WS, high toughness and/or stealth) to make melee realy dangerous against a gun-toting opponent.

RPGuru1331
2008-10-22, 01:05 PM
Hehehe. Realism in 40k.

That said, you /are/, effectively, guardsmen, who aren't really the melee-strong army. It makes sense to me that your melee sucks totally, I guess.

BRC
2008-10-22, 01:08 PM
Well - in real life, they did. But in the year 40.000, under the iron rule of the Emperor and his Adeptus - they didn't.

No, really - the mechanics for melee need to work in this game. And they truly need to be quite terribly extreme, for in order to get into melee range, you need to cross the point blank range of the combat shotgun I mentioned earlier.
Not really, Melee weapons are mainly used by Space Marines, and against foes like Orks and Tyranids who can and will get into Melee. The standard issue Humans in the IG use ranged weapons almost exclusively, and do so against other humans, and so ranged weapons are the best idea.

Basically, The OP is looking at this picture

http://thxforthe.info/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/drive-me-closer.jpg
And asking why it's funny?*



*Not really. I just wanted to post that picture, no W40k thread is complete without it.

RPGuru1331
2008-10-22, 01:31 PM
On the note of hte Orkz, I think Heresy Wiki is making them playable. The Orkz section just have NPCs (unlike the Eldar), but..

http://darkheresy.wikia.com/wiki/More_Dakka#Orky
My favorite is that weapon costs are listed in Teef; Makes it seem like they're going for "Orkz can buy this"

Kiero
2008-10-22, 02:45 PM
First, monofilament edges.

Second, cheap to get higher quality melee weapons, which increase your WS.

Third, guns need ammo. Ammunition in 40k is the great leveller. No use having a boltgun when you can't find rounds for it on the hind-end world you're currently stuck on. Or the primitive world you've been inserted on doesn't allow you to find recharge packs for your plasma pistol.

Zen Master
2008-10-22, 05:02 PM
Not really, Melee weapons are mainly used by Space Marines, and against foes like Orks and Tyranids who can and will get into Melee. The standard issue Humans in the IG use ranged weapons almost exclusively, and do so against other humans, and so ranged weapons are the best idea.

Basically, The OP is looking at this picture

http://thxforthe.info/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/drive-me-closer.jpg
And asking why it's funny?*



*Not really. I just wanted to post that picture, no W40k thread is complete without it.

Heh - great picture.

It's not that I don't agree with you. I kinda do - but then again.

You are not Imperial Guardsmen. Dark Heresy has the foundations of several of the more powerful characters on the 40K table - the assasin, the priest (what are they called - confessors? Preachers? Nevermind), the arbites enforcer (well, adeptus arbites may not quite reach the levels of raw power attained by librarians and inquisitors).

And anyways, I don't play RPG's for realism. If my character decides to brave the odds, and (one way or the other) engage in melee a guy holding a rapid-fire ranged weapon, I want him rewarded for getting there. When I do close the distance, I want the advantage to be mine - I have the melee weapon, he has a rifle.

But the way I see the rules - and all of your replies - that seems to not be the case. Making a melee character seems to be pretty much a mistake.

Which frankly is sad. Priests should use hammers and flamers.

RPGuru1331
2008-10-22, 05:28 PM
And anyways, I don't play RPG's for realism. If my character decides to brave the odds, and (one way or the other) engage in melee a guy holding a rapid-fire ranged weapon, I want him rewarded for getting there. When I do close the distance, I want the advantage to be mine - I have the melee weapon, he has a rifle.
I must point out that realism has very little to do with Melee's relative suckage in DH, and probably more to do with the fact that it's part of the Guard's thing, and you know why. It's not that I don't actually agree that melee should be cool, but then I'd probably play DH like some sort of heretic anyway (Eldar working with Inquisitor? Or god forbid, if a player wanted to be Orky and I had no preset story ideas, I'd probably try and bend over backwards to set one up to make it possible).

You know what you could try to do? Fix it the way the setting does. Give someone who wants to be melee legitimately superior stats/equipment.

Zenos
2008-10-22, 05:32 PM
Heh - great picture.

It's not that I don't agree with you. I kinda do - but then again.

You are not Imperial Guardsmen. Dark Heresy has the foundations of several of the more powerful characters on the 40K table - the assasin, the priest (what are they called - confessors? Preachers? Nevermind), the arbites enforcer (well, adeptus arbites may not quite reach the levels of raw power attained by librarians and inquisitors).

And anyways, I don't play RPG's for realism. If my character decides to brave the odds, and (one way or the other) engage in melee a guy holding a rapid-fire ranged weapon, I want him rewarded for getting there. When I do close the distance, I want the advantage to be mine - I have the melee weapon, he has a rifle.

But the way I see the rules - and all of your replies - that seems to not be the case. Making a melee character seems to be pretty much a mistake.

Which frankly is sad. Priests should use hammers and flamers.

About the Cleric, they seem to be designed as some kind of all-round character, although the fact they only need pay 100 xp for 5 points of bs gives me the urge to go "Father Gregori".

Swordguy
2008-10-22, 05:38 PM
First, monofilament edges.

Second, cheap to get higher quality melee weapons, which increase your WS.

Third, guns need ammo. Ammunition in 40k is the great leveller. No use having a boltgun when you can't find rounds for it on the hind-end world you're currently stuck on. Or the primitive world you've been inserted on doesn't allow you to find recharge packs for your plasma pistol.

Oof. THIS.

Seriously, this happens a LOT in the fiction - unless the character in question is actively in a war zone, they don't tend to have more than 1 magazine/clip/power cell as a backup outside the one currently in the weapon itself. This is something that's up to the GM to enforce, and it's something that the DH book doesn't bring across very well (as opposed to , say, the Inquisitor book).

Let me put it this way, in the Esienhorn trilogy, a freaking Inqusitior, paragons of awesome and rare equipment, has a grand total of one (1) Metal Storm bolt shell, and has only one extra magazine for his master-crafted bolt pistol. An Inquisitor, people! There's a whole LOT of planets where you don't find ammo at all, and if you happen to find, say, bolter ammo, you find an individual shell for sale.

What this does in gameplay is force people to think about whether they want to expend the ammo on mooks, or save it for the bad guys with the really good armor. Thus, PC tend to melee through mooks to save ammo. Again, though, this is totally up to the Gm to enforce.

quillbreaker
2008-10-22, 10:27 PM
There's a whole LOT of planets where you don't find ammo at all, and if you happen to find, say, bolter ammo, you find an individual shell for sale.


It's that hard to make a bullet?

Tsotha-lanti
2008-10-22, 10:34 PM
It's that hard to make a bullet?

A bolter shell, quite possibly. They're some kind of high-explosive shell tipped with a penetrator, almost certainly with a liquid propellant system.

If you want to use Sten Guns firing gunpowder-propelled pellets...

RPGuru1331
2008-10-22, 10:35 PM
It's that hard to make a bullet?

IN THE GRIM DARKNESS OF THE FOURTY FIRST MILLENIA, THERE IS ONLY SKULLS AND BANNERS, NO BULLETS.

BRC
2008-10-22, 10:39 PM
It's that hard to make a bullet?
No it's not, but this is GRIMDARK, ergo, in order to make a bullet you must do three things:
1. Find somthing normal (A loudspeaker for example) and give it a pointless dog-latin name (AUDIATOR!)
2. Cover every concievable surface of the bullet with skulls.
3. Kill a puppy with your bare hands.

Rogue 7
2008-10-22, 10:50 PM
My Dark Heresy game had our session on Monday take place in a chaos-tainted space station, full of narrow corridors and the like. We got into a lot of melee for two reasons- the first being that things would start chewing on us before we could get to melee, and the second being that our psyker likes it, so we all pile in to assist (with the exception of our sniper, who then just takes longer to aim). Helps that we've got the build for it, and those mono weapons saved our life against the big boss we had to fight- dealing with total damage reduction of 12 with a d10+4 mono bayonet is tough. Melee's equally effective as shooting at our level, I've found.

chiasaur11
2008-10-22, 11:58 PM
No it's not, but this is GRIMDARK, ergo, in order to make a bullet you must do three things:
1. Find somthing normal (A loudspeaker for example) and give it a pointless dog-latin name (AUDIATOR!)
2. Cover every concievable surface of the bullet with skulls.
3. Kill a puppy with your bare hands.

Just one puppy?

We're discussing the Tau, right?

Swordguy
2008-10-23, 12:13 AM
It's that hard to make a bullet?

For purposes of accurately representing the setting, yes.

Willing suspension of disbelief there, bucko.

As a method of comparison, in the Inquisitor tabletop game, the point cost of a given weapon is doubled for each reload you have for it (3 point, 6-shot revolver is 6 points if you have 6 extra rounds). For extra-rare ammo (special bolter ammo, etc), the cost is doubled for each round of ammo you have. Having characters walk around (again, outside of a purely military setting like an active warzone) with more than an extra magazine or so is absolutely not keeping to the setting.

If'n it helps, remember that production of technological items tends to fall under the proviso of the Adeptus Mechanicus, and they're notoriously stingly with what they sell and to whom. If you want to bypass them, you have to go to the underground, which will naturally charge insanely high prices.

What hurts this argument badly is the existence in the DH rulebook of that one gunworld, where everybody's a gunslinger. That said, it's not out of line to rule that autogun and primitive ammo is going to be readily available (doesn't have enough damage potential to bother anyone), while anything bigger (bolters, plasma, etc) is under the AM's jurisdiction.

Zen Master
2008-10-23, 02:27 AM
For purposes of accurately representing the setting, yes.

Willing suspension of disbelief there, bucko.

As a method of comparison, in the Inquisitor tabletop game, the point cost of a given weapon is doubled for each reload you have for it (3 point, 6-shot revolver is 6 points if you have 6 extra rounds). For extra-rare ammo (special bolter ammo, etc), the cost is doubled for each round of ammo you have. Having characters walk around (again, outside of a purely military setting like an active warzone) with more than an extra magazine or so is absolutely not keeping to the setting.

If'n it helps, remember that production of technological items tends to fall under the proviso of the Adeptus Mechanicus, and they're notoriously stingly with what they sell and to whom. If you want to bypass them, you have to go to the underground, which will naturally charge insanely high prices.

What hurts this argument badly is the existence in the DH rulebook of that one gunworld, where everybody's a gunslinger. That said, it's not out of line to rule that autogun and primitive ammo is going to be readily available (doesn't have enough damage potential to bother anyone), while anything bigger (bolters, plasma, etc) is under the AM's jurisdiction.

While I agree - you're still wrong, at least accordint to the Dark Heresy rulebook. See - in order to keep the billions of armed fighting men of the Imperial Guard going, you need production. Not by the Tech Priests of Mars, but by the hard working men and women of the imperium. The primary export of the entire Scintilla Sector is weapons.

Also, and this may well come as a surprise - deadly as bolters are, they have relatively slow autofire (3 shots), while the autogun has exeedingly fast autofire (10 shots), making the damage potential of the autogun greater than that of the bolter.

Many things in Dark Heresy do somewhat baffle the mind. I don't think anything in the game is as deadly as a ganger with two recoil gloves and to autoguns.

Oh - speaking of the damage potential of autoguns, I didn't take into consideration armor and toughness. In some situations, naturally, a high rate of fire will only let you flatten slugs really, really fast.

Zen Master
2008-10-23, 02:34 AM
You know what you could try to do? Fix it the way the setting does. Give someone who wants to be melee legitimately superior stats/equipment.

Hm - true. But I wish I wasn't forced to :)

Also ... that mono upgrade. Will it work on say, a chainsword?

Attilargh
2008-10-23, 02:44 AM
Yes. After all, it says "any close combat weapon". For chainswords it just gives +2 penetration, as they're already not primitive weapons.

Swordguy
2008-10-23, 03:17 AM
While I agree - you're still wrong, at least accordint to the Dark Heresy rulebook. See - in order to keep the billions of armed fighting men of the Imperial Guard going, you need production. Not by the Tech Priests of Mars, but by the hard working men and women of the imperium. The primary export of the entire Scintilla Sector is weapons.


Honestly, when a product contradicts 20+ years of previously published source material, I'd have a hard time arguing it's right. It's as if WotC wrote, I don't know...T-1000 Terminators (since I'm watching TSCC right now) into DragonLance. It doesn't make sense within the setting, but it's official, so is it right?

It's the same sort thing here - I can't recall a nonmilitary character in a non-militaryanywhere in GW fluff (21 novels and about 4 dozen various sourcebooks sitting on the shelf in front of me) carrying around huge amounts of ammo as matter of course. Thus, being short-stocked ammunition and having to resort to melee is a part of the setting, even if it's not "smart". Heck, playing "smart" screws up a lot of settings (the latest one I saw screwed up was a Paranoia 2e one-shot I just ran - guy took everything all seriously and didn't play by the spirit of the setting. He had the last clone alive, but he was miserable the whole game, while everyone else enjoyed themselves. I feel it's a similar thing here.)

All the game/setting metaphysics aside, restricting easy access to ammunition is a method by which a GM can balance melee with ranged combat and still be accurate to the source material.

Kiero
2008-10-23, 03:51 AM
While I agree - you're still wrong, at least accordint to the Dark Heresy rulebook. See - in order to keep the billions of armed fighting men of the Imperial Guard going, you need production. Not by the Tech Priests of Mars, but by the hard working men and women of the imperium. The primary export of the entire Scintilla Sector is weapons.

Just because there's production to support the military, doesn't mean it's easy for Joe Citizen to get ammo, or that it's not prohibitively expensive via other means. And given a lot of Inquisitorial cells work undercover, they have to go through those kinds of means.

Not to mention worlds where weapons and ammunition are tightly controlled as part of keeping order. Just because in the modern US you can go into an ordinary supermarket and buy bullets, doesn't mean you can everywhere in the Imperium. Look at Eechan in Malleus, or Bonner's Reach in Ravenor.

Furthermore, the standard weapon of the Guard is the lasgun. Which uses rechargeable power packs. Batteries, basically. Which just need a power source (or even an fire) to recharge.

Ashtar
2008-10-23, 04:01 AM
Oh the joys of sitting around a fire, praying to the machine god that the energy packs to your lasgun recharges fast enough* for you to take on the next tyranid wave.

Anyway, if ever the PCs have too much ammo, there's many ways to solve it:

Throw enough cultists at them to use up all the ammo
Use the wonderful power "Jinx" and lock up their weapons
Put them in areas where you can't shoot (Reactor cooling circuits, Adeptus mechanicus shrine of knowledge, ...)


*Lasgun energy packs are so awesome that you can basically do anything you can imagine to recharge them, including putting them in a fire.

Zen Master
2008-10-23, 04:14 AM
Honestly, when a product contradicts 20+ years of previously published source material, I'd have a hard time arguing it's right. It's as if WotC wrote, I don't know...T-1000 Terminators (since I'm watching TSCC right now) into DragonLance. It doesn't make sense within the setting, but it's official, so is it right?

It's the same sort thing here - I can't recall a nonmilitary character in a non-militaryanywhere in GW fluff (21 novels and about 4 dozen various sourcebooks sitting on the shelf in front of me) carrying around huge amounts of ammo as matter of course. Thus, being short-stocked ammunition and having to resort to melee is a part of the setting, even if it's not "smart". Heck, playing "smart" screws up a lot of settings (the latest one I saw screwed up was a Paranoia 2e one-shot I just ran - guy took everything all seriously and didn't play by the spirit of the setting. He had the last clone alive, but he was miserable the whole game, while everyone else enjoyed themselves. I feel it's a similar thing here.)

All the game/setting metaphysics aside, restricting easy access to ammunition is a method by which a GM can balance melee with ranged combat and still be accurate to the source material.

Hm. I still don't agree with you. Necromunda is an entire game based on the fact that gang of civilians rampage through the underhives, toting everything from lead pipes to plasma guns.

No matter how you choose to look at it, the weapons, ammo, tanks, warships and armor of the imperium has to come from somewhere. Adeptus Mechanicus are simply not numerous enough to make it all.

Also, as far as reading goes, I've never seen any reference in the game or the books, ever at all, to indicate that life in the imperium isn't lawless, violent and dangerous - in part due to the ease with which one can lay hands on weapons.

Also - cultists. They have taken whole planets - some of the more succesful ones have taken swathes of planets - you think they accomplish this without weapons?

Of course some cultists are converted planetary defence force or Imperial guard - but that doesn't mean the rest are peasants with pitchforks.

Anyways - I'm not saying that weapons and ammo should be easy to come by. Only that there are ways to get them - many - and that the source material, as far as I can see, makes this quite obvious.

Swordguy
2008-10-23, 04:50 AM
Hm. I still don't agree with you. Necromunda is an entire game based on the fact that gang of civilians rampage through the underhives, toting everything from lead pipes to plasma guns.


I think we're actually closer in opinion than you might think. I'm not saying that the ammunition isn't out there - I'm saying that it can be very hard to come by depending on where a person is, folks don't tend to cart around huge quantities of ammo on a regular basis (even, I might add, in Necromunda) and players should respect the setting enough to abide by its spirit. Not that it doesn't exist...but to get it you'll have to either pay huge quantities of money to shady dealers, or raid Imperial Guard Warehouses (or worse, Space Marine storehouses if you want bolter ammo!), or be very, very friendly with your controlling Inquisitor, or take it off the cooling corpses of your adversary.

Again, it's like the guy in the Paranoia game I referenced. Yeah, he "won" by having the last clone alive, but he had less fun than everyone else at the table who was playing by the spirit of the rules. Part of the 40K setting is pretty much everyone shoots at each other for a few minutes, and then sets aside their guns and charges in with swords and force weapons and chainaxes and other delightful implements. Remember that 40K is a British game, and they're very, very big on playing by the spirit of the rules rather than "winning". The Inquisitor book in particular references an example of play in which a character shouts an inspiring phrase, tries to jump a gap, and misses the roll. The other player (because =][= is a player v player game, remember) says something to the effect of "how about he's clinging to the other edge, and his laspistol is lying over there by some machinery", rather than the more beneficial (to the other player) result of "he fell and died in a heroic moment". British games tend to rely heavily on stuff like this (expecting everyone to respect the spirit of the rules), rather than spelling out every single part of the rules, and DH is no exception.

The GM who decides to enforce that part of the setting by restricting ready access to ammo (so you're forced to melee to conserve said ammo for the really important encounters) is not at all out of line with the setting. He shouldn't have to, though - the onus is on the ]players to respect the limitations of the setting, rather than exploiting them.

First Speaker
2008-10-23, 04:59 AM
I think we're actually closer in opinion than you might think. I'm not saying that the ammunition isn't out there - I'm saying that it can be very hard to come by depending on where a person is, folks don't tend to cart around huge quantities of ammo on a regular basis (even, I might add, in Necromunda)

Remember also the sheer amount of people that there are - sure, there may be a billion bolt shells for all of Necromunda, but that makes for only one between every forty people. Sure, everyone can have lasguns, but

I also remember running out of ammo on a spectacularly regular basis while playing Necromunda, and finding it more economical to simple loot and kill people who haven't fired their weapons yet.

On a side-track, is there any interest for a PbP game of Dark Heresy on these boards?

Zen Master
2008-10-23, 10:02 AM
I think we're actually ... (snip for brevity) ... of the setting, rather than exploiting them.

Ok - I think we're coming from different directions, but to the same position.

The average citizen who slaves away all his days in the manufactorium does not have a gun, or ammo.

The scum of the underhive may have weapons, and ammo. But while an autogun and a clip could be a mans fortune (or downfall), the norm is a homemade musket, and lead balls.

Only the nobs of the spire are likely to have access to a steady supply of goodies, and even they wont have space marine power armor, or bolters.

Anyways. I still feel melee is underpowered - but I'm drifting toward the conviction that maybe thats a good thing.

only1doug
2008-10-23, 10:15 AM
"Outside of a warzone ammo is hard to find"

I'm Remembering a Gaunts Ghosts Novel where they didn't have enough reloads for the troops; someone order the wrong size power packs and the ghosts were going to have to go in with just one reload, kill the enemy and steal their guns.

Zenos
2008-10-23, 10:54 AM
"Outside of a warzone ammo is hard to find"

I'm Remembering a Gaunts Ghosts Novel where they didn't have enough reloads for the troops; someone order the wrong size power packs and the ghosts were going to have to go in with just one reload, kill the enemy and steal their guns.

Guns of Tanith, yeah, I remember that one.

Zen Master
2008-10-23, 10:58 AM
In soviet Russia, dead horse flogs you.

Shouldn't that be "in mother Russia"?

Anyways - I will, right now, go on amazon (or something similar) and order the Inquisitor book, which I don't have.

hamishspence
2008-10-23, 10:59 AM
Gangers seem to have pretty impressive wargear, all the way up to plasma cannons. But then, it varies.

Swordguy
2008-10-23, 12:55 PM
Shouldn't that be "in mother Russia"?

Anyways - I will, right now, go on amazon (or something similar) and order the Inquisitor book, which I don't have.

Check on the Specialist Games website - IIRC it's a free download now. Could be wrong, though... :smallamused:

Selrahc
2008-10-23, 12:59 PM
Shouldn't that be "in mother Russia"?

Anyways - I will, right now, go on amazon (or something similar) and order the Inquisitor book, which I don't have.

Free PDF from the publishers.

http://www.specialist-games.com/inquisitor/assets/lrb/InqLRBpart1.pdf
http://www.specialist-games.com/inquisitor/assets/lrb/InqLRBpart2.pdf

EDIT: Ninja'd, but at least I was the first who gave links.

Myshlaevsky
2008-10-23, 01:08 PM
I've been playing Inquisitor for ages now, and I can heartily recommend it. I'd say that, IMO, the game is better when not treated as an RPG, and that you have to approach it in a certain way. However, it's pretty good aside from some problems with the system.

And FREE. :smallbiggrin:

Check out the Conclave (http://www.the-conclave.co.uk/forum/index.php?sid=e7974e334cef6a18e7a09391c75ad328) for some support. It's a friendly forum, with a lot of fluff knowledge. It's a little dead now, but what can you do? GW pulled the old forum out from under them.

Swordguy
2008-10-23, 08:59 PM
On a side-track, is there any interest for a PbP game of Dark Heresy on these boards?

I'm interested, at any rate. I'd like to get a chance to play a game, instead of GMing all the time.

sleepy
2008-10-23, 09:34 PM
There's no ammo because the cargo ship from the manufactorum got spat out of the warp in the wrong place/time/configuration. Done.

Not that you could exactly walk up to the nearest IG facility and demand bolter shells at the best of times. Inquisitorial acolyte, eh? Ok, we'll file that request (on a scroll) and get it processed. Should only take a couple years.

Zen Master
2008-10-24, 01:56 AM
Check on the Specialist Games website - IIRC it's a free download now. Could be wrong, though... :smallamused:

I um ... kinda did mean The Inquisitors Handbook. But yea - I downloaded Inquisitor as well, and thanks :)

hewhosaysfish
2008-10-24, 07:07 AM
Am I the only one here who has a problem with the concept of a monofilament hammer?
A hammer... with an edge one molecule thick. That's one heck of a sharp hammer. :smallconfused:

Swordguy
2008-10-24, 07:24 AM
Am I the only one here who has a problem with the concept of a monofilament hammer?
A hammer... with an edge one molecule thick. That's one heck of a sharp hammer. :smallconfused:

The "mono" description does specify it can be used on "any close combat weapon"...but in the same entry specifies that "mono weapons have specially fashioned blades with superfine edges" (emphasis mine). All the bladed weapon entries (knife, sword, axe, etc) specify them as having edges, while the hammer entry doesn't mention the hammer having an edge.

I'd say there's enough wiggle room in there for a GM to reasonably keep a mono hammer from existing. Likewise, this seems a rather good example of the "Brits expecting people to abide by the spirit of the game" thing that I mentioned earlier.

A quote from the L5R Line developer comes to mind (in regards to a published spell that I pointed out could be used in an "auto-win combat" manner).


As always, if you'd like to run it that way in your campaign, there's no one stopping you. That's clearly not how we intended the spell to work, but if you want to use it that way go right ahead. It's your game. Just be aware that I officially give my blessing and throw the support of AEG staff behind your GM to punch you square in the face for doing it. And he gets to hit you a second time if you complain about the first one. Don't be a jackass.

Don't know why, it just seems appropriate to the topic...

Tsotha-lanti
2008-10-24, 07:35 AM
I'd say there's enough wiggle room in there for a GM to reasonably keep a mono hammer from existing. Likewise, this seems a rather good example of the "Brits expecting people to abide by the spirit of the game" thing that I mentioned earlier.

Why would the GM need wiggle room?

"No, that's stupid" seems sufficient.

Project_Mayhem
2008-10-24, 08:04 AM
Hm. I still don't agree with you. Necromunda is an entire game based on the fact that gang of civilians rampage through the underhives, toting everything from lead pipes to plasma guns

Yeah, one of the most important Necromunda mechanics was that you run out of ammo really easily. Thats why, if you were smart, everybody in your gang carried the extremely reliable lasgun/pistol.


Gangers seem to have pretty impressive wargear, all the way up to plasma cannons. But then, it varies.

I think that was just because people would have complained if you couldn't use plasma and las cannons. It's also made clear that both suck in a gang fight.

Zen Master
2008-10-24, 08:38 AM
Yeah, one of the most important Necromunda mechanics was that you run out of ammo really easily. Thats why, if you were smart, everybody in your gang carried the extremely reliable lasgun/pistol.

Well - ammo was sometimes somewhat scarce. As it should be - these gangs are the lowest dregs of the imperium. People with better connections and more ressources would likely have easier access.


I think that was just because people would have complained if you couldn't use plasma and las cannons. It's also made clear that both suck in a gang fight.

Really? I'd say have superior gear worked very well indeed for me.

spotmarkedx
2008-10-24, 03:00 PM
This is why you play a telekinetic and bump your willpower(WP) as much as possible.

Melee? I create a blade of force with my mind that does d+10 and has 10 armour pen.

Close range? I pick up handy rocks, furnature or machinery and drop them on unsuspecting opponents. With enough weight, I can get some pretty impressive damage totals.

Long range? Err... well right now I use a lasgun so I don't need to worry about ammo. Someday, I'll shoot bolts of force, though.

Sure, I may be soon dragged screaming into the warp, but what are the chances of that happening, really? (Don't actually answer that please, I'm pretending it is a small chance)

Myshlaevsky
2008-10-24, 03:06 PM
This is why you play a telekinetic and bump your willpower(WP) as much as possible.

Melee? I create a blade of force with my mind that does d+10 and has 10 armour pen.

Close range? I pick up handy rocks, furnature or machinery and drop them on unsuspecting opponents. With enough weight, I can get some pretty impressive damage totals.

Long range? Err... well right now I use a lasgun so I don't need to worry about ammo. Someday, I'll shoot bolts of force, though.

Sure, I may be soon dragged screaming into the warp, but what are the chances of that happening, really? (Don't actually answer that please, I'm pretending it is a small chance)

It is if you play it right. There's not a power in the game you can't roll out on one dice, sooner or later.

Project_Mayhem
2008-10-24, 03:18 PM
I'd say have superior gear worked very well indeed for me.

They are anti-tank weapons. In a gang level game. THe lascannon is plain inefficiant. The Plasma gun is overpriced for the comparative damage it can do against human targets. Although it's cool.

Kiero
2008-10-24, 05:17 PM
This is why you play a telekinetic and bump your willpower(WP) as much as possible.

Melee? I create a blade of force with my mind that does d+10 and has 10 armour pen.

Close range? I pick up handy rocks, furnature or machinery and drop them on unsuspecting opponents. With enough weight, I can get some pretty impressive damage totals.

Long range? Err... well right now I use a lasgun so I don't need to worry about ammo. Someday, I'll shoot bolts of force, though.

Sure, I may be soon dragged screaming into the warp, but what are the chances of that happening, really? (Don't actually answer that please, I'm pretending it is a small chance)

Course therein lies one of the many source material contradictions in the game. Patience Kys does that kind of stuff all the time, and she's not going crazy (well any crazier than she already is). She's not dripping with warp corruption and mutation either. Nor for that matter is Ravenor.

Does everyone have ridiculous levels of Armour of Contempt, to be a protagonist or something?

RPGuru1331
2008-10-24, 05:20 PM
Does everyone have ridiculous levels of Armour of Contempt, to be a protagonist or something?
Basically, yes. The source material actually does go with the Dark Heresy version on ease of corruptions/mutations/soul snackery, if I recall, it's just the old "You have a name, and thus, semi-immunity" routine.

I'd have prefered they do that for DH, but that's not the point, strictly speaking.

Myshlaevsky
2008-10-24, 05:22 PM
Course therein lies one of the many source material contradictions in the game. Patience Kys does that kind of stuff all the time, and she's not going crazy (well any crazier than she already is). She's not dripping with warp corruption and mutation either. Nor for that matter is Ravenor.

Does everyone have ridiculous levels of Armour of Contempt, to be a protagonist or something?

They all have Discipline Focus, Discipline Mastery, 50+ Wp, Power Well x X and Corpus Conversion. :smalltongue:

Maybe they even dabble in healing biomancy to literally have almost no limit on what they can cast. :smallbiggrin:

Zen Master
2008-10-26, 06:31 PM
They are anti-tank weapons. In a gang level game. THe lascannon is plain inefficiant. The Plasma gun is overpriced for the comparative damage it can do against human targets. Although it's cool.

Anti-tank they may be. However, enemies could survive pretty much every other weapon in the game. But get his by the las cannon, and you're out.

I liked that. There was always some experienced, well-geared guy on the other team, and I wanted him gone.

Of course - sometimes he'd have a las cannon too. The bastard.

Bryn
2008-10-26, 06:48 PM
I'm interested, at any rate. I'd like to get a chance to play a game, instead of GMing all the time.
Seconding this thing, word for word. :smallamused: Also, Swordguy, you really seem to know 40k, so it would be great to have you as a fellow Acolyte.
[hr]
As for psykers in GW novels... it would be amusing, but ultimately unsatisfying, if Inquisitor Eisenhorn was kill by daemons! midway through the book. So, he gets plot immunity. No such thing for my Dark Heresy players. Oh no.

That is, if the Psyker ever rolled a 9...
[hr]
What is the Playground's opinion on the Inquisitor's Handbook? They weren't selling it at Games Day, nobody had it at GenCon UK, and nobody nearby stocks it, but I still intend to get my hands on it if it's good, probably via the internetwebsphereblag...tubes.

Selrahc
2008-10-26, 06:57 PM
Seconding this thing, word for word. :smallamused: Also, Swordguy, you really seem to know 40k, so it would be great to have you as a fellow Acolyte.


I'm in too if something gets started.

Swordguy
2008-10-26, 07:36 PM
Seconding this thing, word for word. :smallamused: Also, Swordguy, you really seem to know 40k, so it would be great to have you as a fellow Acolyte.


Why thank you. It's nice to be recognized as the font of information I am. :smallbiggrin:

So we've got what? Z-Axis, Swordguy, Selrahc, and First Speaker as interested parties?



What is the Playground's opinion on the Inquisitor's Handbook? They weren't selling it at Games Day, nobody had it at GenCon UK, and nobody nearby stocks it, but I still intend to get my hands on it if it's good, probably via the internetwebsphereblag...tubes.

I rather like it. Really, it's mostly new guns and equipment, so that's nice. The Adeptus Sororitas don't seem to be as overpowered as people were afraid of (partially because you never get the good gear), and the fluff's good. My only real issue with the book is why the "Noble" background isn't layered over a "world" type - instead being it's own "world". Granted, I can see arguments for both interpretations...I just prefer the other one. :smallwink:

Honestly, my biggest beef with DH as a whole is that you're a slave to the Inquisitior for your entire career - you never get to graduate yourself. By the time you hit the top rung of your career path, you're actually close to "Space Marine" badass, and more awesome than any thus-far published Inquisitor, but still just an acolyte. I'd love to see a promotion to Interrogator somewhere around 6k XP, and promotion to Inquisitor just before you hit your last career rank (and then a consolidated "Inquisitor" career path that everyone jumps to, maybe one for each Ordo).

BRC
2008-10-26, 07:42 PM
Why thank you. It's nice to be recognized as the font of information I am. :smallbiggrin:

So we've got what? Z-Axis, Swordguy, Selrahc, and First Speaker as interested parties?



I rather like it. Really, it's mostly new guns and equipment, so that's nice. The Adeptus Sororitas don't seem to be as overpowered as people were afraid of (partially because you never get the good gear), and the fluff's good. My only real issue with the book is why the "Noble" background isn't layered over a "world" type - instead being it's own "world". Granted, I can see arguments for both interpretations...I just prefer the other one. :smallwink:

Honestly, my biggest beef with DH as a whole is that you're a slave to the Inquisitior for your entire career - you never get to graduate yourself. By the time you hit the top rung of your career path, you're actually close to "Space Marine" badass, and more awesome than any thus-far published Inquisitor, but still just an acolyte. I'd love to see a promotion to Interrogator somewhere around 6k XP, and promotion to Inquisitor just before you hit your last career rank (and then a consolidated "Inquisitor" career path that everyone jumps to, maybe one for each Ordo).
I think they don't let you play as inquisitors because they are afraid of PC's just using their badges to requisition the nearest guard regiment (or a squad of grey knights, or some deathwatch space marines, or a convent of Adeptes sororitas, or whatever else) anytime somthing nasty comes up, just to be sure.

"So, there are smugglers in there that we think may have unknowingly transported the heretical artifact."
"Yeah"
"How many of them are there?"
"Ten Maybe"
"Hmm, alright, let's get a regiment in here, capture some for interrogation, then pronounce exterminatus on the planet just to be sure"

Swordguy
2008-10-26, 08:27 PM
I think they don't let you play as inquisitors because they are afraid of PC's just using their badges to requisition the nearest guard regiment (or a squad of grey knights, or some deathwatch space marines, or a convent of Adeptes sororitas, or whatever else) anytime somthing nasty comes up, just to be sure.


I do appreciate the issue - it just kinda breaks the verisimilitude for me. *shrug*

...don't suppose you're interested in running a DH pBp game, are ya? :smallsmile:

BRC
2008-10-26, 08:28 PM
I do appreciate the issue - it just kinda breaks the verisimilitude for me. *shrug*

...don't suppose you're interested in running a DH pBp game, are ya? :smallsmile:
I don't have the rulebooks, sorry.

RPGuru1331
2008-10-26, 08:31 PM
Can't you use the =][= you get to requisition anyway?

The way I've understood it, Inquisitors don't break out the rosette unless they *have* to. It tips your hand to your enemies and lets them vanish, if possible. And god help you if, say, there are rogue Guard among the Cultists you're hunting, or spies or whatever else.. I mean, if we're talking verisimilitude, there /aren't/ Grey Knights or SMurfs everywhere you swing a cat. There's.. like a 1000 groups of 1000 SMurfs, right? that's a million. It's a pretty big galaxy. And then aren't Grey Knights just some of those groups of 1000?

BRC
2008-10-26, 08:37 PM
Can't you use the =][= you get to requisition anyway?

The way I've understood it, Inquisitors don't break out the rosette unless they *have* to. It tips your hand to your enemies and lets them vanish, if possible. And god help you if, say, there are rogue Guard among the Cultists you're hunting, or spies or whatever else..
Yeah, but PC's don't know that, and will, unless given a reason to do otherwise, probably throw around that rossette quite alot, so rather than forcing every GM to take measures to discourage this, they probably decided to keep the PC's as acolytes answering to an Inquisitior.

Swordguy
2008-10-26, 08:37 PM
The way I've understood it, Inquisitors don't break out the rosette unless they *have* to. It tips your hand to your enemies and lets them vanish, if possible. And god help you if, say, there are rogue Guard among the Cultists you're hunting, or spies or whatever else..

That's the whole "playing with the spirit of the game" thing again. Players (at least, American players) have a distressing tendency to follow the Evil Overlord's Rule #40:


# I will be neither chivalrous nor sporting. If I have an unstoppable superweapon, I will use it as early and as often as possible instead of keeping it in reserve.

...and the spirit of the game be dammed.

Because, if we weren't supposed to do it, there's be a RULE stopping us, not just pointless fluff, because fluff doesn't really matter anyway (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93303&highlight=fluff)

BRC
2008-10-26, 08:39 PM
That's the whole "playing with the spirit of the game" thing again. Players (at least, American players) have a distressing tendency to follow the Evil Overlord's Rule #40:



...and the spirit of the game be dammed.

Because, if we weren't supposed to do it, there's be a RULE stopping us, not just pointless fluff, because fluff doesn't really matter anyway (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93303&highlight=fluff)
Don't forget Rule 37: "There is no such thing as Overkill, only Open Fire and I Need to Reload"

RPGuru1331
2008-10-26, 08:42 PM
That's the whole "playing with the spirit of the game" thing again. Players (at least, American players) have a distressing tendency to follow the Evil Overlord's Rule #40:



...and the spirit of the game be dammed.

Because, if we weren't supposed to do it, there's be a RULE stopping us, not just pointless fluff, because fluff doesn't really matter anyway (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93303&highlight=fluff)

Well, I'm not one to talk Spirit of the Game. Like I said earlier in the thread, I'm a heretic. I'd try and play an Eldar working with an Ordo Hereticus. They already employ mutants, so..

I'm just saying, if Inquisitors don't just land, flash hte =][=, and proceed to do everything in the back behind serious fire support? wouldn't that mean that you could, with verisimilitude, punish the players if need be? And are yours so bad that they just refuse to comprehend that you're just not supposed to abuse the hell out of the =][=?

AS to "Under na inquisitor", isn't it somewhere that they *do* get a =][= at some point? And if so, can't you just hand it over *after* they show discretion and intelligence? XD

BRC
2008-10-26, 08:46 PM
Well, I'm not one to talk Spirit of the Game. Like I said earlier in the thread, I'm a heretic. I'd try and play an Eldar working with an Ordo Hereticus. They already employ mutants, so..

I'm just saying, if Inquisitors don't just land, flash hte =][=, and proceed to do everything in the back behind serious fire support? wouldn't that mean that you could, with verisimilitude, punish the players if need be? And are yours so bad that they just refuse to comprehend that you're just not supposed to abuse the hell out of the =][=?

AS to "Under na inquisitor", isn't it somewhere that they *do* get a =][= at some point? And if so, can't you just hand it over *after* they show discretion and intelligence? XD
Probably. There is also the group dynamic thing, in the 40k fiction Ive read an inquisitorial group consists of 1 inquisitor, perhaps an interrogator, and however many acolytes the inquisitor deems neccessary. Because DH is intended to be played as a group, multiple inquisitors (or even interrogators) in a group would go against that, and having one PC play the inqusitor or interrogator has a whole host of problems with it.

RPGuru1331
2008-10-26, 08:53 PM
Probably. There is also the group dynamic thing, in the 40k fiction Ive read an inquisitorial group consists of 1 inquisitor, perhaps an interrogator, and however many acolytes the inquisitor deems neccessary. Because DH is intended to be played as a group, multiple inquisitors (or even interrogators) in a group would go against that, and having one PC play the inqusitor or interrogator has a whole host of problems with it.

There is that, yes. Do Inquisitors usually team up? Because that's also an /excellent/ reason to not let them become Inquisitors.

'course, I'd say "To hell with it" and just let them be inquisitors that worked together, but that's me.

Selrahc
2008-10-26, 08:55 PM
There is that, yes. Do Inquisitors usually team up? Because that's also an /excellent/ reason to not let them become Inquisitors.

'course, I'd say "To hell with it" and just let them be inquisitors that worked together, but that's me.

Sometimes. Only if something really big is going on though. Generally it is to hunt down a rogue inquisitor.

chiasaur11
2008-10-26, 09:09 PM
Don't forget Rule 37: "There is no such thing as Overkill, only Open Fire and I Need to Reload"

Well, that's totally fitting within the spirit of the world, so that one's fine.

holywhippet
2008-10-26, 09:11 PM
There is that, yes. Do Inquisitors usually team up? Because that's also an /excellent/ reason to not let them become Inquisitors.

'course, I'd say "To hell with it" and just let them be inquisitors that worked together, but that's me.

The inquisition can be very fraticidal at times. Some members believe in doing things one way, others believe in doing things another. They can and will kill each other given motive and opportunity.

Cathaidan
2008-10-26, 09:49 PM
On the whole ammo issue, there is another thing that I don't think people are taking into consideration when they think about "Bolter" ammo. Does anyone besides me remember why the gun is called a Boltgun?

In some of the earliest GW fluff the ammo for a Bolter has a miniature power cell that is capable of projecting an energy field around the explosive round. This caused the shots when fired to cackle with electricity. That's why the gun is called the Boltgun, if fires explosive rounds that cackle with electricity.

I don't know about you, but if I were trying to mass produce weapons, like the Imperium of Man is, a power cell for a lasgun is far easier to make than a single bullet, with explosive heads, that have an electrical fields around them.

Talkkno
2008-10-27, 02:23 AM
Honestly, my biggest beef with DH as a whole is that you're a slave to the Inquisitior for your entire career - you never get to graduate yourself. By the time you hit the top rung of your career path, you're actually close to "Space Marine" badass, and more awesome than any thus-far published Inquisitor, but still just an acolyte. I'd love to see a promotion to Interrogator somewhere around 6k XP, and promotion to Inquisitor just before you hit your last career rank (and then a consolidated "Inquisitor" career path that everyone jumps to, maybe one for each Ordo).
They plan on making a Rogue Trader themed expansion and a really high powered one where you can be a Space Marine or a Inquisitor.

Kiero
2008-10-27, 03:57 AM
In some of the earliest GW fluff...

Which is probably completely irrelevant now.

Swordguy
2008-10-27, 08:50 AM
They plan on making a Rogue Trader themed expansion and a really high powered one where you can be a Space Marine or a Inquisitor.

Do they? I was under the impression that the DH line was being shut down fairly soon after the fiasco earlier this year.

Attilargh
2008-10-27, 08:56 AM
Fantasy Flight Games (http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/dark-heresy/index.shtml) bought the right to Dark Heresy after that. They are the ones doing the Rogue Trader (http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/list/12129.page;jsessionid=4F1152AFA3E3D9A3863B790FC2DB A679) book.

Swordguy
2008-10-27, 08:59 AM
Fantasy Flight Games (http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/dark-heresy/index.shtml) bought the right to Dark Heresy after that. They are the ones doing the Rogue Trader (http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffgforums/posts/list/12129.page;jsessionid=4F1152AFA3E3D9A3863B790FC2DB A679) book.

Oh, good. Don't know how I missed that. Thanks!

Bryn
2008-10-27, 10:49 AM
When I met them at Games Day this year, the Fantasy Flight Games people also seemed to be saying that they're publishing a good load more copies of the rulebook and Inquisitor's Handbook, which is also good news. (Sadly, they apparently did have any to sell on the actual day...)