Why do thor and loki fight?

[Gamerlord]

If I remember correctly, they are allies in the myths, and loki even helped make a fast horse for thor's dad, and some handy items for thor!

[Laurentio II]

While sometime allied, they are highly conflictual every other moment. Just to say, for a start, that Loki is evil, and Thor decently good.
But yes, they usually are not "reported" fighting to the dead. It's more like "I'll humiliate you because I can".

[Mina Kobold]

They've never been allies. Loki is evil, Thor is good. Loki was the mother (shapechanging) of Odins horse but not planned he didn't wanned it to be Odins. The stuff he gave them was because he had done something bad (dunno what) and then had to get e'm.

[hamishspence]

I remember the two working together on numerous occasions: to deal with the Giant Thrym, going through trials set by a giant:

(who'd secretly rigged them, so, instead of just winning eating, running, drinking, lifting and wrestling contest, unknown to them, tests were Outeat Fire, Outrun Thought, Drink the Ocean, Lift the Midgard Serpent, and Defeat Old Age. Not surprisingly, they failed)

However, I think in some versions, Loki is Thor's brother, rather than Wotan's.

[Mina Kobold]

I remember the two working together on numerous occasions: to deal with the Giant Thrym, going through trials set by a giant:

(who'd secretly rigged them, so, instead of just winning eating, running, drinking, lifting and wrestling contest, unknown to them, tests were Outeat Fire, Outrun Thought, Drink the Ocean, Lift the Midgard Serpent, and Defeat Old Age. Not surprisingly, they failed)

However, I think in some versions, Loki is Thor's brother, rather than Wotan's.

Loki is blood-brother to Odin Thors father. He's not Thors brother.

[Allerdyce]

Loki's a prankster. He gets his jollies by poking fun at everyone and doing clever tricks. As far as I recall, he eventually takes this too far by causing the death of Balder, who was prophecied to die but his mom got everything in the world to swear not to harm him with the exception of mistletoe, which was passed over. Loki, seeing this as awesomely funny, gives Balder's blind brother Hod a bit of mistletoe, as all the gods are having fun throwing things at Balder to absolutely no effect. Hod throws it, not knowing it's mistletoe, and boom, Balder's dead. So the gods are pissed, punish Loki, and the first chance he gets, he causes Ragnarok. So he's painted as a jerk ever after, although he was an okay, if kinda flaky, guy before that.

[mago]

iirc, in the original myths he was just a trickster. Christian monks vilified him.

[neoseph7]

I don't know about the actual myths that might be presented in classical literature from the Norse mythos, but the supplement Deities and Demigods goes over the gist of it. (Normally I wouldn't use a DnD book to explain something like this, but it is a possible source for the Giant when he makes up storyline).

In the chapter on the Asgardian Pantheon Loki is mildly mischievous but not overly evil prior to him getting Balder (The only good looking deity, apparently) killed. So angered by Loki's actions, Odin imprisons him. (It may have been a different god, the imprisonment I'm sure of). Loki becomes evil during his imprisonment, and joins the Giants in their invasion of Asgard. This is supposed to be part of the Ragnarök story, if I'm not mistaken.

[Kato]

Meh, yeah, I'm not that much into Norse mythology but as far as I remeber it, Loki is more or less the Belkster of Asgard. Though, he may not be running around doing random killing, but he is always playing pretty mean tricks and stuff. Thor is not really good, but just... the way a viking is. A warrior with a decent code of honor and stuff.
Also, Loki is related to the giants, the Arse nemesis (though,stories differ, some claim him to be a giant, some him being a half giant, some say he just associates with them because he had those fights with Thor and even accidentally killed a goddess) Anyway, he is the probably most important god in Ragnarok, initiating it and I think even being one the last to stand in it. (Don't ask how someone can tell what the end of the world will be like)

[lord_khaine]

and I think even being one the last to stand in it. (Don't ask how someone can tell what the end of the world will be like)

no, Heimdal manage to kill him

[Querzis]

They actually seems to be very well represented in the comic. Sometimes they are seen talking together very well (like with the «dude dont taunt the god-killing abomination» or when Thor get a goddess pregnant) and we saw them just about to fight to then be distracted by dwarf sex and agreeing its really disgusting. As far as vikings are concerned, thats actually a pretty friendly relationship. But even if they are friendly, one is chaotic good (from our point of view he might be more chaotic neutral but back in middle age that was a really good guy) and one is chaotic evil so they end up fighting quite often. I'm not an expert in Norse mythology but from what I read about it I'm pretty sure thats how they usually act.

[Tass]

(Don't ask how someone can tell what the end of the world will be like)


Thats a prophecy. ("Vølvens spådom" in danish... what's "Vølven" in english? ... the volva i think...)

[Roderick_BR]

I'd say they fight like siblings, remembering that they are paired as brothers on more moderm incarnations of the mithologies. Each have his own view on how to do stuff, and often fight, because... well, that's what Nordic deities do best :smalltongue:

[Zythran]

However, I think in some versions, Loki is Thor's brother, rather than Wotan's.

well, let me tell you some things about that...

the scandinavian and the continental norse cult was/is quite the same, except for the names. btw, nearly all polytheistic religions are quite similar.

for example, thor was the scandinavian name for the continental donar. odin was the scandinavian name for wotan (or oldschool: wodan :smallwink:)


so thor/donar is the son of odin/wodan :smallcool:

[mockingbyrd7]

I think that, in Rich's representation of the characters, it makes pretty good sense. Here's my take: Thor's Chaotic Good, while Loki is Chaotic Evil. Both are more Chaotic than they are Good or Evil. They're either siblings or at least direct relatives, and they aren't getting rid of each other any time soon. Therefore, they often bicker and get into fights and try to best each other, but can also coexist and be a happy family. Sort of.

[Adeptus]

Loki get's a bad rep. He's actually a pretty cool guy by modern standards, and is often wronged by the rest of the Aesir.

[dps]

Thats a prophecy. ("Vølvens spådom" in danish... what's "Vølven" in english? ... the volva i think...)

A volva is a mollusk, so I don't think that's right.

EDIT: apparantly it's also the proper name for a type of female shaman. As a proper name, it doesn't really have an English translation. Maybe just "shaman" or even "priestess" would be the best term.

[Sylphy]

They fight because Rich says so.

The end.

[nybbler]

Thor's Chaotic Good, while Loki is Chaotic Evil. Both are more Chaotic than they are Good or Evil.

Despite his playfulness, Thor is Lawful Good*. Which just goes to show that gods and men are not judged by the same standards. Throwing lightning bolts while blindfolded and stretching that Weather Control spell weren't what I'd call "Lawful" acts. Nor was literally throwing the rule book out.

*I think we have conclusive evidence of that, but it doesn't fit in this footnote. Anyway, Durkon is Lawful Good, so his deity Thor could not be Chaotic, though he could be Neutral.

[David Argall]

The tales were set down in writing a couple of centuries after the area became Christian, and thus was mostly written by those hostile to them, and/or more interested in a good story than the tradition. So any theory has to be viewed with some skepticism.

But in any of the tales, if there is a dishonorable part, that role is assigned to Loki. He is frequently threatened with execution for his crimes, and manages to find a way out most of the time.

[hamishspence]

Deities and Demigod Thor is CG. OOTS Thor? Who Knows?

Some very rare exceptions to the 1 step rule exist: paladins of Sune- normally, deity's alignment must be within 1 step of paladin. The CG Sune is one exception. So are several deities in Faiths and Pantheons, who allow LN and CN clerics despite being NE.

Also, the Alignment Domains must Match Deity's Alignment principle has one exception: the NE Maglubyiet offers the Chaos domain.

Maybe there is a principle that, though Dwarves are Often LG, Thor is commonly worshipped by Dwarves (Deities and Demigods says this) so, offers exception.

Or, he could be NG.

[hnokki]

Thats a prophecy. ("Vølvens spådom" in danish... what's "Vølven" in english? ... the volva i think...)

The Icelandic word "völva" means prophet or oracle, something like that.

[derfenrirwolv]

Deities and Demigod Thor is CG. OOTS Thor? Who Knows?




http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html

I don't think you can get more chaotic than getting drunk hurling lightning bolts at random while blindfolded and standing on one foot.

... unless you REALY try.

and by that i mean the last panel of

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0206.html

[Querzis]

I think we have conclusive evidence of that, but it doesn't fit in this footnote. Anyway, Durkon is Lawful Good, so his deity Thor could not be Chaotic, though he could be Neutral.

Or Rich simply got rid of the one step away stupidity about cleric. Or, even more likely, Thor is too chaotic to care about the alignement of his follower.

Seriously, even though we didnt saw much of him, go back to every strip were we see him. Thats pure chaos right there. I honestly dont know how anyone could argue that this guy is lawfull or even neutral. Come on, he was freaking shooting lightning randomly while being drunk.

Edit: Ninja'd.

But anyway I would like to add that people should stop expecting this comic to be exactly like D&D. Its based on D&D but Rich doesnt follow the rules too closely. Plot or jokes are much more important then D&D in this comic.

[hamishspence]

Hence, the references to other D&D settings breaking the one step rule. Which is what I tend to think- CG Thor, LG Durkon, though haven't had a Word of God answer yet.

[Miklus]

Loki is the god of...well-spokenness (AKA lies), amongst other things.
Thor has a very short fuse, as you might expect for a thunder god.

Put the two together and sparks fly :smallbiggrin:

Keep in mind that "good" and "evil" are christian morals. Thor is not really "good" in a modern sence. Forget that marvel-cartoon Thor. If Thor sees a giant or troll, he kills it. No "detect evil" or "did it really do anything bad?" or other such nonsence. As far as Thor is concerned, the only good giant is a dead giant. His hobby seems to be hunting trolls and throwing lightning in random directions.

Thor threathens to kill Loki in several stories. And he means it. Thor has a very bad temper and to be blunt, he is homicidal and nay to smart.

[Weiser_Cain]

Thor told Loki he was adopted.

[Greep]

Heh, I think it's implied that "OotS" loki is evil also through hilgya's actions.

"try to burn me if you wish, beast of flame. But look! I am the servant of Loki, God of Flames and Chaos! Bow before me mewlings of fire!"

[Corwin Weber]

As has been mentioned, we do have to remember that in the medieval/ancient world.... people just didn't think about good and evil that way. Loki would be considered evil by modern standards..... but let's face it. Thor wouldn't be considered to be a whole lot better. Let's remember, the Vikings were raiders. Pirates and armed robbers. Rapes during Viking raids were not only common, they were actually encouraged. They rarely left survivors other than captives, who ended up as slaves, and they took anything of value. Thor was the patron of the Vikings.

From the Norse perspective, Loki was untrustworthy and had other negative attributes, but they sort of looked at him the same way Roy looks at Belkar. A useful weapon. There are a number of stories where the gods get into a situation and Odin essentially tells Loki 'Get us out of this.' Usually, hilarity ensues as a result as Odin basically turns Loki loose on an unsuspecting target. The target usually survives, but doesn't 'win' in any normal sense of the word.

However, it generally also isn't forgotten that Loki was directly responsible for the death of Baldur, (a well beloved god) and is prophesied to fight with the Jontun during the end of the world. The gods will use his talents, but they do not trust him.

[turkishproverb]

Or Rich simply got rid of the one step away stupidity about cleric. Or, even more likely, Thor is too chaotic to care about the alignement of his follower.

Seriously, even though we didnt saw much of him, go back to every strip were we see him. Thats pure chaos right there. I honestly dont know how anyone could argue that this guy is lawfull or even neutral. Come on, he was freaking shooting lightning randomly while being drunk.

Seconded, with the note that by Norse God standards, Thor was Neutral Good on the alignment axis. Then again, we are talking bout vikings here...

[Occasional Sage]

Or Rich simply got rid of the one step away stupidity about cleric. Or, even more likely, Thor is too chaotic to care about the alignement of his follower.


WHy do you consider that dumb? It seems to me that in order to be an advocate for a god and "sell" her worship to others, you have to agree with her for the most part. Otherwise, you wind up with some CG character "worshiping" a LE deity because that's where the player finds the best domains.

[ChowGuy]

Loki was the mother (shapechanging) of Odins horse ... he had done something bad (dunno what)
While Thor was off slaying giants, one showed up in disguise offering to repair the wall around Asgard before his return, requesting the Sun, the Moon, and Freyja as payment. The gods accepted the offer, thinking he could never finish the task on time. The giant however asked to be allowed the use of his stallion Svadilfari, and Loki agreed without consulting the others. When the wall was nearly finished on schedule, he had to shapeshift into a mare to seduce and lead Svadilfari away or lose everything. Sleipnir, Odin's eight-legged horse, was an unplanned consequence.

Also, in the comic, Thor and Loki's "fight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0079.html)" seems to be more a matter of good-natured rivalry then an all-out battle to the... whatever happens to gods that lose fights.

[Lord Seth]

Despite his playfulness, Thor is Lawful Good*. Which just goes to show that gods and men are not judged by the same standards. Throwing lightning bolts while blindfolded and stretching that Weather Control spell weren't what I'd call "Lawful" acts. Nor was literally throwing the rule book out.

*I think we have conclusive evidence of that, but it doesn't fit in this footnote. Anyway, Durkon is Lawful Good, so his deity Thor could not be Chaotic, though he could be Neutral.I find it hard to believe that Thor is Lawful Good. Neutral Good makes more sense to me.

[Corwin Weber]

While Thor was off slaying giants, one showed up in disguise offering to repair the wall around Asgard before his return, requesting the Sun, the Moon, and Freyja as payment. The gods accepted the offer, thinking he could never finish the task on time. The giant however asked to be allowed the use of his stallion Svadilfari, and Loki agreed without consulting the others. When the wall was nearly finished on schedule, he had to shapeshift into a mare to seduce and lead Svadilfari away or lose everything. Sleipnir, Odin's eight-legged horse, was an unplanned consequence.

That's one of the stories I was referring to. Essentially a 'go get 'im' moment. :)

....note that Freya, having not been consulted about this, was not amused.

[liuzg150181]

well, let me tell you some things about that...

the scandinavian and the continental norse cult was/is quite the same, except for the names. btw, nearly all polytheistic religions are quite similar.

for example, thor was the scandinavian name for the continental donar. odin was the scandinavian name for wotan (or oldschool: wodan :smallwink:)


so thor/donar is the son of odin/wodan :smallcool:
By continental norse cult I suppose you mean continental Germanic paganism?
AFAIK Norse mythology is part of a big umbrella known as Germanic mythology(the Vikings can be considered North Germanic people),which includes Anglo-Saxon,continental Germanic(Frisian,Saxons,Frankish etc) and Norse mythology. Basically the name of the days are influenced by Anglo-Saxon paganism brought by various Germanic tribes that 'migrated' to British Isle from the early 5th century AD,for example Tuesday = "Day of Thunor(aka Thor)", Wednesday = "Day of Woden(aka Odin aka Wotan)",Thursday = "Day of Thunor(aka Thor)","Friday = "Day of Frige(aka Frigg)".
Also Gandalf from LotR,which borrows heavily from Anglo-Saxon mythology, is actually based on Odin/Woten/Woden.:smallsmile:

[Caleniel]

For any of you with an interest in the norse gods and myths, I CAN'T recommend the Valhalla comics of Peter Madsen too highly. I grew up with these, and they were some of the first comics to really capture my interest, but I still love them. There is a lot of humour in them for any age level, although foreigners might find some of the themes and pictures too "adult" for a young audience (I was seven when I began reading them, but then I'm Danish and not shocked, even at that age, by facts about human reproduction etc).

Of course it is an interpretation of the old myths rather than an exact rendition, but there is no doubt he is very knowledgable about the original material.

The latest album covers the myth with Loki becoming the (rather unwilling) mother of Odin's horse Sleipner.

They are really funny, and great art. But have a look at his homepage:
http://www.petermadsen.info/pages/vh/valhalla-eng.html

[ZerglingOne]

Oh come on guys... It's a clear and obvious reference to the Marvel Comics version of Thor in which Loki is Thor's arch-nemesis.

[paddyfool]

Tuesday = "Day of Thunor(aka Thor)", Wednesday = "Day of Woden(aka Odin aka Wotan)",Thursday = "Day of Thunor(aka Thor)","Friday = "Day of Frige(aka Frigg)".

Re: Tuesday, you're mixing up Thor with Tyr here (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%BDr). Meanwhile, the other days of the week come from the Sun (sunday), the Moon (Monday), and the roman god Saturn (Saturday), who, tellingly, is not a very nice god. One theory about the origin of the days of the week as belonging to gods is that it all goes way way back to the old Sumerians, who came up with the seven day week to fit with their lunar calendar - one day each for each of their major gods, starting with the gods of the sun and the moon, followed by gods of war, knowledge, the supreme god, and fertility. The seventh day was devoted to their god of spite and woe, and no work could be done on that day for it would turn to tears.

The egyptians and hebrews each separately picked up the habit from the sumerians. (However, the reasons for no work being done on the seventh day were somewhat revised in the hebrew religious texts, for obvious reasons.) The names of the gods associated with each day had the greeks acquiring the system from the egyptians and renaming the days according to roughly appropriate gods, then the romans acquiring the system in much the same way from the greeks, and the rest of the western world of the time from the romans. Meanwhile, the seven day week also spread east, through India, to China. More on this here: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~loxias/week.htm and here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Days_of_the_week .

[pjackson]

But anyway I would like to add that people should stop expecting this comic to be exactly like D&D. Its based on D&D but Rich doesnt follow the rules too closely. Plot or jokes are much more important then D&D in this comic.

According to the start of OoPCs the rules of D&D govern the OotS universe.
Plus Rich does follow the rules very closely (though not too closely).

[Zythran]

By continental norse cult I suppose you mean continental Germanic paganism?
AFAIK Norse mythology is part of a big umbrella known as Germanic mythology(the Vikings can be considered North Germanic people),which includes Anglo-Saxon,continental Germanic(Frisian,Saxons,Frankish etc) and Norse mythology.

naaah,not really.

germany is settled in the middle of europe, so it get quite much influence from all sides. the term 'big umbrella known as germanic' is not really right. some small austrian with a mustache(=sucker :smallfurious:) said so, but its wrong.

i dunno how much the scandinavian cult had to do with the celtic cult, but germany was influence from north by scandinavia or norse, from the southwest (AKA france) by celts an from southeast by christians... well, take all this in a mixer, push the button... and the result was germany :smallsmile:



Basically the name of the days are influenced by Anglo-Saxon paganism brought by various Germanic tribes that 'migrated' to British Isle from the early 5th century AD,for example Tuesday = "Day of Thunor(aka Thor)", Wednesday = "Day of Woden(aka Odin aka Wotan)",Thursday = "Day of Thunor(aka Thor)","Friday = "Day of Frige(aka Frigg)".
Also Gandalf from LotR,which borrows heavily from Anglo-Saxon mythology, is actually based on Odin/Woten/Woden.:smallsmile:


in germany there is donnerstag (thursday) refering to donar, and freitag (friday), refering to freya/frigg. dienstag (tuesday) is tyrsday, refering to tyr, a counterpart to the roman god mars.

montag (monday) and sonntag (sunday) is refered to moon and sun, obviously :)

wednesday is called 'mittwoch' which means the middle of the week. theres no more reference left to a deity at all



but sure, the anglo saxons came from germany, just look at the name of the state of saxony^^ (edit: whoa, thats wrong... also i've had learnd something too.... the old saxony is today known as lower saxony)

english and german speech also has the same root

all in all, it shows that we're all the same kind :smallsmile:



and yes, paddyfool described it very well. didnt read the thread to the end, sry

[Devils_Advocate]

Keep in mind that "good" and "evil" are christian morals.
Not especially, no. Neither the philosophical concepts nor the D&D alignments are based on any particular religion.


WHy do you consider that dumb? It seems to me that in order to be an advocate for a god and "sell" her worship to others, you have to agree with her for the most part. Otherwise, you wind up with some CG character "worshiping" a LE deity because that's where the player finds the best domains.
Well, if a you respect the authority and traditions of your church, and obey your church and your deity, and adhere to the dogma that they lay out, that makes you Lawful, not Chaotic. Organized religion seems pretty much like it has to be Lawful by its very nature. And official depictions of the religions of Chaotic deities seem to portray e.g. the church of Sune led by clerics of Sune who instruct Sunites in the teachings of Sune, instead of "Well, Sune doesn't have a church, duh." If you're going to do things that way, it makes more sense to require all clerics to be Lawful. Reliably following someone else makes you Lawful even if the guy you're following is Chaotic. Yet the rules seem to completely ignore this. Same deal with the Leadership feat: It shouldn't be impossible get someone of opposed alignment to do whatever you say so much as it should be impossible to get any Chaotic character to do whatever you say.

[Corwin Weber]

Not especially, no. Neither the philosophical concepts nor the D&D alignments are based on any particular religion.


Well, if a you respect the authority and traditions of your church, and obey your church and your deity, and adhere to the dogma that they lay out, that makes you Lawful, not Chaotic. Organized religion seems pretty much like it has to be Lawful by its very nature. And official depictions of the religions of Chaotic deities seem to portray e.g. the church of Sune led by clerics of Sune who instruct Sunites in the teachings of Sune, instead of "Well, Sune doesn't have a church, duh." If you're going to do things that way, it makes more sense to require all clerics to be Lawful. Reliably following someone else makes you Lawful even if the guy you're following is Chaotic. Yet the rules seem to completely ignore this. Same deal with the Leadership feat: It shouldn't be impossible get someone of opposed alignment to do whatever you say so much as it should be impossible to get any Chaotic character to do whatever you say.

You're right that good and evil aren't Christian concepts.... but Good and Evil are relatively modern concepts. The idea of clear cut Good and Evil in a fantasy setting is largely a product of the Romantic period. The people who were actually living in a society of that sort..... the subject really didn't come up.

[Tass]

The Icelandic word "völva" means prophet or oracle, something like that.

Yeah, I know what a "Vølve" is, I just didn't know the rendering of the word commonly used in english. There has been some fine suggestions here.

Correspondingly I know Loki as Loke and Thor as Tor and so on in my native language (danish).




Basically the name of the days are influenced by Anglo-Saxon paganism brought by various Germanic tribes that 'migrated' to British Isle from the early 5th century AD,for example Tuesday = "Day of Thunor(aka Thor)", Wednesday = "Day of Woden(aka Odin aka Wotan)",Thursday = "Day of Thunor(aka Thor)","Friday = "Day of Frige(aka Frigg)".
Also Gandalf from LotR,which borrows heavily from Anglo-Saxon mythology, is actually based on Odin/Woten/Woden.



in germany there is donnerstag (thursday) refering to donar, and freitag (friday), refering to freya/frigg. dienstag (tuesday) is tyrsday, refering to tyr, a counterpart to the roman god mars.

montag (monday) and sonntag (sunday) is refered to moon and sun, obviously :)

wednesday is called 'mittwoch' which means the middle of the week. theres no more reference left to a deity at all

It is interesting. The complex ways many languages, traditions, cults and religions are related, have mixed, influenced and developed.

Just for the record in Denmark the weekdays are: Mandag (Monday). Tirsdag (Tuesday) after Tyr/Tir god of war (possibly related to Mars?), and as far as I know there was something about Tyr and Tor originally being the same. Onsdag (Wednesday) after Odin (Zeus?). Torsdag (Thursday) after Tor obviously. Fredag (Friday) after Freja/Freya (Venus?). Lørdag (Saturday), no idea. Søndag (Sunday).

[Kurald Galain]

Anyway, Durkon is Lawful Good, so his deity Thor could not be Chaotic, though he could be Neutral.

Or, Thor, being chaotic and all that, is less picky about his followers than suggested by certain D&D rulebooks, and is thus perfectly happy with lawful good followers.

Makes perfect sense, and Occam is happy. Also, note that Durkon is lawful GOOD rather than LAWFUL good, and likewise Thor is chaotic GOOD rather than CHAOTIC good.

[Roupe]

Lørdag (Saturday), no idea.

its from "Laugr" meaning bath. "Lørdag" is the day of bathing


Or, Thor, being chaotic and all that, is less picky about his followers than suggested by certain D&D rulebooks, and is thus perfectly happy with lawful good followers.

I also think this makes perfect sense, it also gives a good motive why the clerical dwarfs didnt want Durkon back home. Even if Thor isnt picky the clergy might be.

[Caleniel]

Yeah, I know what a "Vølve" is, I just didn't know the rendering of the word commonly used in english. There has been some fine suggestions here.

Correspondingly I know Loki as Loke and Thor as Tor and so on in my native language (danish).



AHEM! As a fellow Dane I have to vehemently disagree with your spelling of Thor! It's obviously with an "H". Unless, that is, you want to disown the brand of BEER named after him in Denmark, which I expect might lead to some righteous smiting from his followers! :smallwink:

I'ts also Thor in the Valhalla comics mentioned earlier. Surely you've read those, Tass? Being Danish? They are great...

Right now you can read the second last installment (Balladen om Balder) online from Jyllands Postens homepage, in some sort of java-slideshow application, btw. In Danish, but that should work for you...

[Querzis]

WHy do you consider that dumb? It seems to me that in order to be an advocate for a god and "sell" her worship to others, you have to agree with her for the most part. Otherwise, you wind up with some CG character "worshiping" a LE deity because that's where the player finds the best domains.

Considering what LE deity ask of their cleric, I really dont know how someone could pretend to be chaotic good if hes the servant of a lawfull evil deity.

But anyway, I guess I should have been more precise. I can very well see the problem with a good character whos a cleric of an evil god or an evil cleric who follow a good god. Thats just normal. But the fact that chaotic character cant follow lawfull god and vice versa just doesnt make any sense. If its the god of their family or their tribes, then a lawfull character would also chose that god, even if hes chaotic and the chaotic god (being chaotic) really shoudnt care about the alignement of his follower. And it work the other way around too, if a chaotic character really like a lawfull god there is absolutely no reason he coudnt serve him, especially since it give him neat power. And, as long as he doesnt break any of his rules, I dont see why the Lawfull god would have a problem with that.

Chaotic and lawfull character can get along very well, often more then they do with other people who are also lawfull/chaotic. So there is absolutely no reason why this shoudnt apply to cleric and gods too. Thor is a god who like beers, fighting and shooting trees with lightning. Dwarves like beers, fighting and hate trees. It work perfectly. Hell Thor even physically look like a dwarf (except you know...tall).


According to the start of OoPCs the rules of D&D govern the OotS universe.
Plus Rich does follow the rules very closely (though not too closely).

I'm not sure what your point is...I'm not even sure if you agree or disagree with me. Yes OOTS is a world inspired by D&D though Rich doesnt follow the rules too closely and the plot was a lot more important then following D&D rules many times in the comic...

[Deme]

As has been mentioned, we do have to remember that in the medieval/ancient world.... people just didn't think about good and evil that way. Loki would be considered evil by modern standards..... but let's face it. Thor wouldn't be considered to be a whole lot better. Let's remember, the Vikings were raiders. Pirates and armed robbers. Rapes during Viking raids were not only common, they were actually encouraged. They rarely left survivors other than captives, who ended up as slaves, and they took anything of value. Thor was the patron of the Vikings.

From the Norse perspective, Loki was untrustworthy and had other negative attributes, but they sort of looked at him the same way Roy looks at Belkar. A useful weapon. There are a number of stories where the gods get into a situation and Odin essentially tells Loki 'Get us out of this.' Usually, hilarity ensues as a result as Odin basically turns Loki loose on an unsuspecting target. The target usually survives, but doesn't 'win' in any normal sense of the word.

However, it generally also isn't forgotten that Loki was directly responsible for the death of Baldur, (a well beloved god) and is prophesied to fight with the Jontun during the end of the world. The gods will use his talents, but they do not trust him.

Baldur wasn't just a "well beloved god." In most sources I've read, he's described as the god of light, purity, ect. That was pretty much the thing that finally got Loki a punishment that he couldn't worm out of. Not that he hadn't done some things that messed with the other gods, though...this was just the only time it had really bad long-term consequences. Loki usually managed to fix whatever thing he had done. It's also useful to note that two of the nastiest world-ending monsters and the ruler of the underworld (who I don't recall as being evil, but still rather unpleasent) were in fact his children.

[Querzis]

Baldur wasn't just a "well beloved god." In most sources I've read, he's described as the god of light, purity, ect. That was pretty much the thing that finally got Loki a punishment that he couldn't worm out of. Not that he hadn't done some things that messed with the other gods, though...this was just the only time it had really bad long-term consequences. Loki usually managed to fix whatever thing he had done. It's also useful to note that two of the nastiest world-ending monsters and the ruler of the underworld (who I don't recall as being evil, but still rather unpleasent) were in fact his children.

Well to be fair, one of those two nasty world ending monster (Fenrir) woudnt have been a problem if they didnt lock him away in the first place. I mean he was raised by the freaking god of justice and then there is a prophecy about him killing Odin so they trick him and imprison him but the imprisonement is the reason why he want to kill Odin in the first place (stupid self-fulfilling prophecy).

As for Hel (the ruler of the underworld) she did refuse to resurect Baldur and her job is to torture souls eternally so...yeah.

[13_CBS]

FYI, in the Norse myths Loki and Thor have been on good terms. Friends, even. Loki is said to have latched himself on to Thor's belt at times, since Loki's not so great at killing giants and Thor is an expert in doing so. In the earlier myths, they were a bit like the Aesir's "Brains and Brawn" duo.

Loki had a tendency to abuse his friendship with Thor at times, though, like when Loki was coerced into luring Thor into a giants' ambush and Loki complied. However, aside from things like that, I don't particularly recall the two of them really going at each other aside from the Marvel comics.

[liuzg150181]

Re: Tuesday, you're mixing up Thor with Tyr here (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%BDr). Meanwhile, the other days of the week come from the Sun (sunday), the Moon (Monday), and the roman god Saturn (Saturday), who, tellingly, is not a very nice god. One theory about the origin of the days of the week as belonging to gods is that it all goes way way back to the old Sumerians, who came up with the seven day week to fit with their lunar calendar - one day each for each of their major gods, starting with the gods of the sun and the moon, followed by gods of war, knowledge, the supreme god, and fertility. The seventh day was devoted to their god of spite and woe, and no work could be done on that day for it would turn to tears.

The egyptians and hebrews each separately picked up the habit from the sumerians. (However, the reasons for no work being done on the seventh day were somewhat revised in the hebrew religious texts, for obvious reasons.) The names of the gods associated with each day had the greeks acquiring the system from the egyptians and renaming the days according to roughly appropriate gods, then the romans acquiring the system in much the same way from the greeks, and the rest of the western world of the time from the romans. Meanwhile, the seven day week also spread east, through India, to China. More on this here: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~loxias/week.htm and here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Days_of_the_week .
You noticed and pointed my typo error,yeah I intended to type 'Tyr' but had forgotten to change after cut and paste~~~:smallbiggrin:

Anyway quite interesting with regards to the origin of the number of days,however due to the lack of citation I shall reserve my judgement to its authencity.

[Weiser_Cain]

...all those sex changes threaten Thor's shaky concept of manliness in ways carrying a big honkin' hammer can't begin to compensate for...

[liuzg150181]

naaah,not really.

germany is settled in the middle of europe, so it get quite much influence from all sides. the term 'big umbrella known as germanic' is not really right. some small austrian with a mustache(=sucker :smallfurious:) said so, but its wrong.

i dunno how much the scandinavian cult had to do with the celtic cult, but germany was influence from north by scandinavia or norse, from the southwest (AKA france) by celts an from southeast by christians... well, take all this in a mixer, push the button... and the result was germany :smallsmile:

LoL,Godwin's law applies I guess?:biggrin:
What I am referring to is the paganism and mythology prevalent amongst the Teutonic people prior to Christianity,therefore I am not talking about some 'pure race' concept as propounded by some small austrian with a mustache~~~:smalltongue:

Again,methinks most European ethnic groups,like most ethnic group in other places, comprises of mixture of various groups of people.



in germany there is donnerstag (thursday) refering to donar, and freitag (friday), refering to freya/frigg. dienstag (tuesday) is tyrsday, refering to tyr, a counterpart to the roman god mars.

montag (monday) and sonntag (sunday) is refered to moon and sun, obviously :)

wednesday is called 'mittwoch' which means the middle of the week. theres no more reference left to a deity at all



but sure, the anglo saxons came from germany, just look at the name of the state of saxony^^ (edit: whoa, thats wrong... also i've had learnd something too.... the old saxony is today known as lower saxony)

english and german speech also has the same root

all in all, it shows that we're all the same kind :smallsmile:



and yes, paddyfool described it very well. didnt read the thread to the end, sry
In terms of language classification, both English and German belong to the West Germanic language branch of Germanic language group, while Scandinavian languages are their distant relatives, being North Germanic language branch. There's also the East language branch which is now extinct.

The descendent of Anglo-Saxon people is of course the English people, as attested by DNA testing: DNA surveys of Britain today show around 40 per cent of people carry genes linked with a massive invasion of Germanic people - around half a million - into Britain during the early Anglo-Saxon period. Recently an academic propounds a theory that the Anglo-Saxons had established an apartheid-like system which explains the occurance of high 'Germanic gene',of course controversies and refutations ensue:
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=588&art_id=qw1153228321565B216
http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/579127/apartheidlike_society_in_anglosaxon_britain/index.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2008/04/23/sciinvade123.xml

[paddyfool]

English is primarily of the West German language group, yeah, but it's also something of an argot (ie a language of mixed origin). My favourite example of this is the nonsense we make of meat and animals:

Cow - Beef
Sheep - Mutton
Pig - Pork
Deer - Venison

etc.

Why do we do this? It all goes back to old history when the French-speaking Normans ruled over the Anglo-Saxon speaking, well, Anglo-Saxons. As the two people and languages mingled together, the names for the animals came from the language of the people who raised the animals, and the names for the meat came from the people who actually got to eat the meat. Social injustice is written deep into the very language - neat, isn't it?

[liuzg150181]

English is primarily of the West German language group, yeah, but it's also something of an argot (ie a language of mixed origin). My favourite example of this is the nonsense we make of meat and animals:

Cow - Beef
Sheep - Mutton
Pig - Pork
Deer - Venison

etc.

Why do we do this? It all goes back to old history when the French-speaking Normans ruled over the Anglo-Saxon speaking, well, Anglo-Saxons. As the two people and languages mingled together, the names for the animals came from the language of the people who raised the animals, and the names for the meat came from the people who actually got to eat the meat. Social injustice is written deep into the very language - neat, isn't it?
Why are we swerving more and more away from the main topic?:smalltongue:
Anyway,the vobaculary of English is derived from numerous sources,so much so that it is said to be "as pure as a cribhouse whore" and "has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary".:smallbiggrin:
During the era of Norman dominance in England,words of Germanic origin were considered crude(and still is) whereas words of Latin or French(though the language originated from vulgate Latin) origin were considered classy(and still is).

[Helanna]

I feel compelled to link this (http://www.elfwood.com/libr/l/e/leonard/01god.html.html) extremely hilarious short story now. Read it, it's great.

Also, does anyone know where I could find some good resources on Norse gods and legends? I've been interested in them for a while, but I don't know of any good books/websites/whatever to find accurate (well, accurate as legends get, anyway) information.

[Kcalehc]

Why do thor and Loki fight?

Beer and women. In any combination or quantity thereof. Same as any other man really...

[Caleniel]

I feel compelled to link this (http://www.elfwood.com/libr/l/e/leonard/01god.html.html) extremely hilarious short story now. Read it, it's great.

Also, does anyone know where I could find some good resources on Norse gods and legends? I've been interested in them for a while, but I don't know of any good books/websites/whatever to find accurate (well, accurate as legends get, anyway) information.

Uhm... HELP! I'm being ignored!

Well, anyway, try this one. It's a comic, but the artist is also a scholar. He is interpreting the norse legends in a very funny but also very insightful way.

http://www.petermadsen.info/pages/tegnestuen/studio.html

Hope you have fun!

[aapje]

Might as well add the days of the week in Dutch so you can all gaze at the striking similarities ;)

Maandag (moonday), dinsdag (might come from Thingus, the latinised form for Tyr), woensdag (from Wodan/Wotan/Woden), donderdag (derived from Donar, donder is Dutch for thunder), vrijday (Freiya, vrij incidentally means free), zaterdag (derived from Saturn) and zondag (sunday).

And yes, Dutch is a West Germanic language as well :smalltongue:

Oh and Caleniel by no means I want to ignore you, but the fact that I can't read those comics online is a sever hindrance for me to judge how nice they are :smallwink:

[Setra]

The true answer to the thread.

They're brothers.
Well I presume they are in the comic anyways
Of course they fight.

[Weiser_Cain]

The true answer to the thread.

They're brothers.
Well I presume they are in the comic anyways
Of course they fight.

I already made that joke

[Caleniel]

Oh and Caleniel by no means I want to ignore you, but the fact that I can't read those comics online is a sever hindrance for me to judge how nice they are :smallwink:

Well... he does have an English version of his homepage, which was what I tried to link to.

But I admit that I didn't look around too much, maybe it is a good deal less content rich than the Danish version...

I can see he doesn't turn up on Amazon, so I guess he isn't translated to Engligh. Well, someone ought to...

[Caleniel]

OK, now I took a closer look. You can still find stuff about the legends in the English pages, at least. And sketches from the albums. Such as the one about Loki and the death of Baldur:

http://www.petermadsen.info/pages/vh/vh13/vh13-eng.html

[paddyfool]

Hi Liuzug,


You noticed and pointed my typo error,yeah I intended to type 'Tyr' but had forgotten to change after cut and paste~~~

Anyway quite interesting with regards to the origin of the number of days,however due to the lack of citation I shall reserve my judgement to its authencity.

Well, the Economist is usually a pretty good source, and I well remember reading that article in it way back in the 2001 Christmas issue so it's not just a Geocities thing. But the details are, being ancient, sketchy; the theory simply derives from the Sumerians having the oldest 7-day week that we know, and the Babylonians, Egyptians, Hebrews etc. all having apparently picked it up a little later, plus the linguistic links; the Sumerians' reverence of the number 7 and interest in astronomy are general supporting evidence, but obviously there's no surviving text saying "King so-and-so declared that we should have a 7-day week for these reasons", so a fair part is speculation.


Why are we swerving more and more away from the main topic?

Sorry, my bad.


Anyway,the vobaculary of English is derived from numerous sources,so much so that it is said to be "as pure as a cribhouse whore" and "has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary".

True dat.


During the era of Norman dominance in England,words of Germanic origin were considered crude(and still is) whereas words of Latin or French(though the language originated from vulgate Latin) origin were considered classy(and still is).

Well, yes and no. Where there's a choice, middle class people believe the French-derived words to be classy (and might, for example, say "Pardon?" if they don't quite hear what you're saying). Upper class people consider them middle class and pretentious (and would, to continue the example be more likely to say "What?"). That's the general rule in England, anyway... not sure about other English-speaking places.

[RaptorSLH]

Loki didn't just arrange Baldur's death, he kept Baldur from resurrecting. Hel didn't want to release Baldur, but Baldur's mom (sorry, it's been ages since I read the story) nagged her into a deal: if everyone on earth wept for Baldur, he would be released from the underworld and death. Greiving mother traveled the world, convinced everyone to weep, until there was only one left, a crone who would shed no tears...and just happened to be Loki in disguise. Baldur stayed dead, and Loki was condemned to lie bound (with his own entrails? or am I mixing stories?) in a cavern with the venom of a snake dripping into his eyes until Ragnarok. His wife decided to follow him and catch the venom in a bowl, but when the bowl filled, she had to turn aside to empty it, and a few drops of venom would reach her husband's eyes, causing him to writhe in earthquake-inducing agony.

Anyway, the point is that Loki wasn't merely mischevious before his imprisonment, but malicious. The Norse gods punished him for a reason, and yeah, given the punishment reconciliation was out of the question, but Loki crossed that line first.

Also, while ancient societies had concepts of good and evil that applied to themselves, they just didn't always apply those concepts to their gods. You didn't stand on a streetcorner and scream "Smite me, o mighty smiter!" if you think your gods actually do such things. In most versions of the story, Arachne really is a better weaver than Athena, and Athena turns her into a spider out of spite - and Athena is usually one of the "good" gods. Hades was also called "The Hospitable One" or "The Generous One" because you didn't want to get his attention - you might be invited over to stay. Hades is villified for his rape of Proserpina, but Zeus did essentially the same thing to Europa - Proserpina (and her greiving mother) was a goddess, Europa was not, guess whose abduction is treated sympathetically? The same double standard applies in many of the old mythologies. Mere mortals don't get to demand justice from the actions of the all-powerful - they can only appease, and hope.

[Lokasenna]

Just to note that there is another version of how he got bound, although I believe it is not popular or widely believed. It wasn't until after he insulted several of the gods at a feast and wouldn't stop slandering them that he got bound with his son Vali's entrails. (after running away and transforming into a salmon).

[Aquillion]

Anyway, the point is that Loki wasn't merely mischevious before his imprisonment, but malicious. The Norse gods punished him for a reason, and yeah, given the punishment reconciliation was out of the question, but Loki crossed that line first.Uh, it's not that simple. First of all, there was never really one unified, written-down "Norse Bible" the way we have with Christianity, not until long after the beliefs themselves had started to die out. (We rely on the versions of the Eddas we have, but those were changeable oral history in reality.) So their beliefs changed over times and across areas.

Second, the most common interpretation of Loki's character that I've seen, at least from what we have, is that he started out merely mischievous and became more villainous over time; the fact that the Eddas were written down after the Christianization of Iceland was nearly-complete may have contributed, since he became an obvious parallel to Satan.

[Corwin Weber]

Uh, it's not that simple. First of all, there was never really one unified, written-down "Norse Bible" the way we have with Christianity, not until long after the beliefs themselves had started to die out. (We rely on the versions of the Eddas we have, but those were changeable oral history in reality.) So their beliefs changed over times and across areas.

Second, the most common interpretation of Loki's character that I've seen, at least from what we have, is that he started out merely mischievous and became more villainous over time; the fact that the Eddas were written down after the Christianization of Iceland was nearly-complete may have contributed, since he became an obvious parallel to Satan.

There was probably a fair amount of that as well.... but let's remember that in ancient societies, (and the Norse were no exception) a lot of things that we consider to be 'Evil' just weren't thought about much. People just accepted them. The basic mindset about good and evil would be considered quite childish and hypocritical by modern standards. There was also a large amount of acceptance of corruption based on status. The concept was less about Good and Evil as it was about Power and Powerlessness. The powerful did as they pleased. At least in the modern age they usually try to hide it.

[RaptorSLH]

Aquillion
I accept the limitations you point out, but still feel it's reasonable when referencing a myth to work with the well-known versions, at least as reasonable as it is to work with postulated "original" versions. That said, I'm not working from the Eddas, or even direct translations, so if the consensus is that I got the usual myth wrong, I'm willing to eat my words.:smallsmile: It's just every time I read the "mistletoe dart" story, it was also followed by the "whole world weeps for Baldur" story.

Wikipedia has a translation of the story from the Prose Edda, an authoritative a source as any still available. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9E%C3%B6kk

Lokasenna
I do seem to remember him transforming into a salmon to try to escape, now that you mention it, but I don't remember how they caught him. Wikipedia backs up your story about it being his son Vali's entrails though; it also adds that the Aesir first turned Vali into a wolf, in which form he killed his brother Nari. Also added the detail that the Loki was bound to three flat stones turned on edge. Ouch.

[RaptorSLH]

I"ll also point out that when it comes to practical jokes, the line between funny and cruel is in the eye of the beholder. Many of Loki's earlier "pranks" caused no lasting harm, even though the gods got mad enough to force him to make restitution several times, so if you feel that he only became malicious later in his career, I really can't argue. But no matter how I look at it, I can find only deliberate malice in arranging the death of a beloved god of light, then keeping him dead when there's an escape clause offered.

[liuzg150181]

Hi Liuzug,



Well, the Economist is usually a pretty good source, and I well remember reading that article in it way back in the 2001 Christmas issue so it's not just a Geocities thing. But the details are, being ancient, sketchy; the theory simply derives from the Sumerians having the oldest 7-day week that we know, and the Babylonians, Egyptians, Hebrews etc. all having apparently picked it up a little later, plus the linguistic links; the Sumerians' reverence of the number 7 and interest in astronomy are general supporting evidence, but obviously there's no surviving text saying "King so-and-so declared that we should have a 7-day week for these reasons", so a fair part is speculation.
Oh ok, so be it.



Sorry, my bad.
Nothing bad nor wrong about it,just that I find it funny that more often than not it happens frequently that discussion thread often branches out to another topic.



Well, yes and no. Where there's a choice, middle class people believe the French-derived words to be classy (and might, for example, say "Pardon?" if they don't quite hear what you're saying). Upper class people consider them middle class and pretentious (and would, to continue the example be more likely to say "What?"). That's the general rule in England, anyway... not sure about other English-speaking places.
Well,latin and greek-derived vocabulary sounds more intellectual to many I guess. Though Received Pronunciation certainly sounds queasy to me.

[liuzg150181]

Might as well add the days of the week in Dutch so you can all gaze at the striking similarities ;)

Maandag (moonday), dinsdag (might come from Thingus, the latinised form for Tyr), woensdag (from Wodan/Wotan/Woden), donderdag (derived from Donar, donder is Dutch for thunder), vrijday (Freiya, vrij incidentally means free), zaterdag (derived from Saturn) and zondag (sunday).

And yes, Dutch is a West Germanic language as well :smalltongue:

Oh and Caleniel by no means I want to ignore you, but the fact that I can't read those comics online is a sever hindrance for me to judge how nice they are :smallwink:
Just as a trivia as far as I can remember correctly 'Dutch' and 'Deutsch'('German' in German language) have the same etymological root so that it's really surprising.

[Kish]

Durkon is lawful GOOD rather than LAWFUL good,
I disagree very much with this assertion.

[hamishspence]

Could be argued convincingly either way. He's described as uber-lawful, but he knows how to work with it "Twas a mechanical defect"

And his loyalty to fellow party members in Origin of PCs, before Roy recruits him, definitely goes Above And Beyond The Call Of Duty.

[Miklus]

Uhm... HELP! I'm being ignored!

:smallbiggrin: Don't feel bad, I love those comics too. I even read the original stories just too see how much the cartoonist had added on. It turns out they have added surpricingly little. But then again, it was good stories to begin with.

I mean, Thor dressing up as Freya in order to get his stolen hammer back? Priceless!

[Green-Shirt Q]

If I remember correctly, they are allies in the myths, and loki even helped make a fast horse for thor's dad, and some handy items for thor!

I've never heard any of the myths of Thor and Loki, but I would imagine their stories are a lot like Mario and Bowser. One minute their fighting eachother to the death because one of them kidnapped the princess, the next minute their teaming up to fight a common threat.

[Devils_Advocate]

I disagree very much with this assertion.
I agree with your disagreement. Durkon is LAWFUL (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html) Good and Thor is CHAOTIC (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html) Good.

How is it then possible for Durkon to be a cleric of Thor? Well, gosh, maybe there's a house rule at work, says Captain Obvious. OoTS clearly contains a few house rules, and there's no reason to think that only the ones mentioned by the characters exist. For example, goblins clearly look like they're the same size as hobgoblins and humans. Is anyone gonna argue that the goblins in OoTS are Small instead of Medium because no one in the comic mentions that they're different from the ones in the Monster Manual in this regard?

It's fairly standard for a D&D setting to have its own take on how the gods, divine magic, clerics, the afterlife, etc. work and relate to each other, so this particular house rule should hardly be a surprise.


And his loyalty to fellow party members in Origin of PCs, before Roy recruits him, definitely goes Above And Beyond The Call Of Duty.
Blind personal loyalty to your group even when they don't deserve it really strikes me as more Lawful than Good. Indeed, I'd say that staying loyal to people who really, really deserve the opposite could be pretty Lawful Evil in some cases.

[Aquillion]

I agree with your disagreement. Durkon is LAWFUL (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html) Good and Thor is CHAOTIC (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html) Good.Hey. Rereading that strip and the ones just after it, I caught something interesting:

Now, try scannin' tha rest o' the party, an' ye'll see tha not none of us are evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html).

Yeah, yeah, there's a double-negative in there, but nonetheless -- it was Durkon who suggested scanning the entire party, apparently confident that it would help resolve the situation.

So... Durkon doesn't (or, at least, didn't) know that Belkar is evil? I mean, his way of speaking aside, it would be stupid for him to encourage her to scan their team if he realized one of his teammates would ping.