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goram.browncoat
2008-10-22, 08:38 AM
Say i'm playing a class that has either an animal companion or a familiar. I pick something small (rat/snake/..) and keep it on my shoulder.

How are attacks against my shoulder mounted pet resolved? Is it regularly (just the goblins attack roll vs the rats AC)? Or are there special rules that come into play for this kind of situation (Ride rules? Concealment? Cover bonus to AC? 50% chance to hit me instead? Something else entirely?)

Note: Just to be clear. I am talking about this situation in a 3.5 environment

Jack Zander
2008-10-22, 08:41 AM
It won't take any damage from an area attack unless you roll a 1, in which case it must make it's own saving throw too.

Actually, I'm not sure that's RAW, but that's how my group has always done it. As far as attacks go, it's AC should probably remain unaffected.

Saph
2008-10-22, 08:44 AM
I'd probably ad-lib it, but if you're looking for a RAW answer, the two most appropriate rules would probably be to either treat the familiar as a 'held item' or as a 'rider and mount'.

If the familiar's a held item, the enemy making the attack has to use special rules to get it (Disarm or Sunder, probably) and, as Jack says, it wouldn't be affected by area attacks unless you rolled a 1. If on the other hand your familiar's treating you as a mount, then you'd use the Mounted Combat rules.

Or I guess you could treat it as another creature sharing the same space as you, in which case it'd have cover (+4 AC, can make hide checks) but would gain no other special benefit. That might be the best way to do it.

Take your pick, really.

- Saph

Epinephrine
2008-10-22, 09:17 AM
I think I'd lean toward the "attended object" version if the companion were small enough, since I can't see much difference between striking at your hip flask and a snake coiled around your hip flask.

I'm not sure about something that is only small though, it would depend on how "small" the creature were. My gut says that a Tiny creature should be no problem, but Small may be too big to innocuously sit on you, given that it extends up to ~60lbs. Tiny, at 1-8lbs, is certainly in the size range that I'd treat as an attended object. Since most familiars are Tiny, (and some diminutive) this shouldn't be a problem; for animal companions there are very few on the list that are Tiny, but some "Small" creatures are pretty close.

Slightly OT, what's with the sizes of snakes? I assume they are sizing them by length rather than by weight, since the largest snakes in the world would only be in the medium range by weight, desite being incredibly long, and I don't think there is a species of venomous snake that would protrude much into the Small category - the largest venomous snakes in the world only weigh ~13 lbs on average.

Jack Zander
2008-10-22, 09:20 AM
I think all familiars are tiny, though I could be wrong.

goram.browncoat
2008-10-22, 09:26 AM
The direct application i was looking to use at this time was a small viper animal companion (in this case intended to be an indian spectacled cobra). Which does indeed seem too large to be an attended object.

I suppose i could take a tiny viper instead.

In any case, the question was meant generally. Be it anything from diminuitive to one-size-smaller-than-whatever-its-on

Epinephrine
2008-10-22, 10:01 AM
The direct application i was looking to use at this time was a small viper animal companion (in this case intended to be an indian spectacled cobra). Which does indeed seem too large to be an attended object.

I suppose i could take a tiny viper instead.

In any case, the question was meant generally. Be it anything from diminuitive to one-size-smaller-than-whatever-its-on

I get really confused by size with snakes; a spectacled cobra, for example, will hit 6 feet long (Medium?), but likely weighs under 8lbs (Tiny?). Is that a "Small" viper?

I have a snake at home, that is currently ~3 feet long and will grow to ~6 feet long, I see no trouble with having a 6 foot snake on my body - I've had snakes that size drape themselves comfortably about my shoulders/waist just fine, but they don't weigh much at all, and trying to hit it would be much like trying to hit a belt/scarf. I think with snakes that it takes a bit of discussion with the DM to determine exactly how big they are, and whether it would be feasible. As a general rule, I'd probably say 2 size categories smaller than the PC, but since snakes can be 2 size categories smaller on one measure, yet fit nicely in the same category by length, it's hard to figure out how they are sized.

One possible advantage to a Tiny viper for a ranger would be using reduce animal on it to make it diminutive, and then enchanting it with Fell the Greatest Foe. Haha! +3d6 damage on medium creatures, and it's even stronger versus bigger foes!

Darrin
2008-10-22, 10:04 AM
How are attacks against my shoulder mounted pet resolved?

Assuming the familiar is at least one size category smaller than the caster, then I'd say treat the familiar is if he's using the caster as a mount. Mounting or unmounting is a move action, or you can fast mount/unmount as a free action with a DC 20 ride check. I might make a familiar roll a "stay in saddle" and/or "soft fall" check if the caster is knocked prone, falls, gets hit by a metor, etc. (although it's doubtful I'd remember to check).

The familiar could use the caster for cover (+4 AC) as a free action with a DC 15 ride check. Enemies can choose to attack either the caster or familiar as normal. If you could somehow find a way to give the familar the mounted combat feat, he could negate one attack against the caster per round with a successful ride check.

Huh. Now this is odd... a caster's familiar could "spur mount" to increase his speed by 10' for 1 round, DC 15 ride check and the caster takes 1 point of damage. Not quite expeditious retreat, but that's a movement bonus I don't think I've ever seen anyone use on a PC.

goram.browncoat
2008-10-22, 10:07 AM
I basically just eye-balled it for size. I think the spectacled cobra gets to be about 1.5 metres (which i think is idd about 5-6ft).

Constrictor snakes in dnd are considered medium according to the srd (im assuming thats not the big adult anacondas) so i figured cobras would be small. A pit viper (say a cottonmouth) would then definatly be tiny i think.

Though maybe cobras are tiny and pit vipers diminuitive. Its hard to tell with atypically shaped animals like snakes :)

Fiery Diamond
2008-10-22, 10:14 AM
You should probably go with what the others are saying, but...

What I'm about to suggest is how I (DM) handle it.
-Area effect spells don't effect your familiar (on you) uless you roll a 1, in which case the familiar rolls
-Attacks targeting a familiar (on you) get a 50% miss chance: if the miss chance causes a failed hit, the attacker rolls vs. your AC to see whether he strikes you instead

Animal companions, for area effect would do things normally
Animal companions (on you) specifically targeted would be resolved as above

-Fiery Diamond

goram.browncoat
2008-10-22, 12:56 PM
You should probably go with what the others are saying, but...

What I'm about to suggest is how I (DM) handle it.
-Area effect spells don't effect your familiar (on you) uless you roll a 1, in which case the familiar rolls
-Attacks targeting a familiar (on you) get a 50% miss chance: if the miss chance causes a failed hit, the attacker rolls vs. your AC to see whether he strikes you instead

Animal companions, for area effect would do things normally
Animal companions (on you) specifically targeted would be resolved as above

-Fiery Diamond

I quite like those ideas. Though I'd probably make it consistent for familiar/companion/random animal. Doesnt make sense to me to handle a rat differently if you just picked it up, have it as a familiar or have it as a companion .. its still a rat on your shoulder.

Jack Zander
2008-10-22, 01:12 PM
But the rat is only about 1/20 your size. Why is it an even 50/50 percent chance?

goram.browncoat
2008-10-22, 01:31 PM
But the rat is only about 1/20 your size. Why is it an even 50/50 percent chance?

Magic? :)

Yeah i know that it still depends on size. Maybe a different system where the creature is attacked directly, but it gets a cover bonus to AC depending on difference in size categories.

Say for example a medium character:
- small viper: +2 cover AC
- tiny viper: +4 cover AC
- rat: +6 cover AC
etc