Tired of feeling like a tank

[Egiam]

I have been anoyed for a long time with DND, in that it seems to me that the system rewards sort of carelessness with Hit points. my players don't worry about a guy with a dagger as they would in real life. a sword does 1d8, they have 12 HP. no chance of death unless they crit, causing a sence of "gaminess". now DND is a great game, but I'm looking for a game that really has much more reallism in the weapon damage. True20, Gurps?
Do any of you know of anything?

[RPGuru1331]

I believe Rolemaster was created as a social experiment to laugh at this complaint, but it does in fact address it ruleswise. Try that one out.

[Innis Cabal]

Not bothering with rules at all and just RPing for the heck of it?

[DM Raven]

It helps also, for any system, if you think of damage more like stamina. Taking damage doesn't have to mean a character was hit, but the character had to use HP to avoid being hit. I would considered "bloodied" (4e) status to be more the time when someone begins to tire and begins to take "glancing blows." The actual hit doesn't come until someone drops below zero...it's at this point the weapon connects to an extent that a person would be brought down.

The problem is, if you have games (and I've had them) where people are brought down by the first hit, the battles are over quickly and characters don't usually feel as heroic.

[lord_khaine]

well both white wolf games and shadowrun have the "any attack might be fatal system", but im not sure your players would like it, as neither system have the heroic fantasy feel that D&D does.

also a dagger can be dangerous in d&d, it just have to be supportet by a lot of sneak attack, or something like that.

[MeklorIlavator]

Realism and Exalted rarely go hand in hand, but it does have a more "realistic" system within the rules of the world(you're demigods, so a guy with a dagger isn't an issue, but getting hurt actually hurts). I believe both Dark Heresey and Shadowrun have more realistic health systems, and are overal more realistic settings.

[sleepy]

I hear Dark Heresy is pretty lethal (as it should be, given the fluff).

edit: I appear to have been beaten to the punch. Is this where I talk about ninjas?

[RPGuru1331]

Realism and Exalted rarely go hand in hand, but it does have a more "realistic" system within the rules of the world(you're demigods, so a guy with a dagger isn't an issue, but getting hurt actually hurts). I believe both Dark Heresey and Shadowrun have more realistic health systems, and are overal more realistic settings.

Um, he said WW games, not Exalted. I suspect he meant nWoD Core, or maybe Mage: The Awakening.

Dark Heresy doesn't have a more realistic health system; It has an equally unrealistic one, it's just significantly gorier (Really? Bludgeoning crits make an arm explode and become shrapnel?)

[Morty]

Since Dark Heresy has been mentioned, Warhammer Fantasy RPG's wound system while also completely unrealistic is quite deadly.

[BRC]

Um, he said WW games, not Exalted. I suspect he meant nWoD Core, or maybe Mage: The Awakening.

Dark Heresy doesn't have a more realistic health system; It has an equally unrealistic one, it's just significantly gorier (Really? Bludgeoning crits make an arm explode and become shrapnel?)
That Is realistic compared to the source material. In standard W40k getting hit with ANY weapon causes your whole torso to explode.

[RPGuru1331]

That Is realistic compared to the source material. In standard W40k getting hit with ANY weapon causes your whole torso to explode.

That's not realistic. That's accurate to source material. They're different things. I know this is somewhat Android of me, but he didn't ask for accurate to wh40k source material, he asked for realistic.

Oh, and on the note of WW earlier, they do have wound systems that are closer to realistic (Even Exalted) then DnD. I still think you're looking for a system where every hit does a specific thing to a specific body part though, so can the OP clarify what he wants by 'realistic', I guess?

[MeklorIlavator]

Um, he said WW games, not Exalted. I suspect he meant nWoD Core, or maybe Mage: The Awakening.

Dark Heresy doesn't have a more realistic health system; It has an equally unrealistic one, it's just significantly gorier (Really? Bludgeoning crits make an arm explode and become shrapnel?)

Uhh, I was talking to the OP, I didn't even see the post above mine.

Also, he seems to be asking for a system where attacks are very danger.us pretty much no matter who you are, and nothing I've heard about Dark Heresy seems to contradict that.

[Jayabalard]

Gurps is generally far more lethal than D&D; weapons do damage based your strength, and there's no "gain another HD" mechanic.

[valadil]

One thing I've done to combat this in the past has been to add 'cinematic combat' to my games. It is inherently different than initative based combat and is used to represent deadly situations that aren't fights. For instance if you have a BBEG with his knife to the king's neck, that scene doesn't play out properly in ordinary D&D.

I forget what my exact rules were, but the aggressor could always coup-de-gras on his opponent on a successful attack. The defender was pretty much undefended. People in the scene could turn it into a combat scene by making some sort of initiative roll versus the aggressor's reflex save. It would become an initiative combat scene whatever the result of the roll, but rolling determined if he was thwarted or got to coup-de-gras.

[Emperor Tippy]

Play Shadowrun. Pretty much unless you are a dragon or a specially built troll tank you can still die from 1-2 hits with any of the games weapons. Granted you still can build trolls that can soak hits from rocket launchers.

[Eldritch_Ent]

Try FATAL- they have charts for hitting most anything from your opponents Xyphoid Process to their Rectum. That's super realistic, right?...

Right?

(Disclaimer- I'm not actually endorsing FATAL in any way. Truly, it is an awful game. Don't try it.)

[Epinephrine]

GURPS is pretty lethal. A single stab with a pointy weapon can kill people, if you hit them somewhere vital. Take -3 to hit to go for a vital organ, and if you manage to hit (and it isn't dodged/parried) you'll deal triple damage. Since a very slightly above average ST person (ST 11) deals 1d+1impaling with a thrusting broadsword, your average hit will force conciousness checks on most unarmoured people, and a maximum damage roll will have a chance of killing someone outright (plus of course the risk of them losing consciousness and bleeding out).

[Egiam]

Thanks guys!
I have to say i'm most intrigued by Gurps. I've heard that true20 does not even have a hp system. Is this true (pardon the pun)?:smallamused:
ty raven for the stamina idea.:smallwink:

[Ascension]

I've heard that true20 does not even have a hp system. Is this true (pardon the pun)?:smallamused:

It's true. On the other hand, the system it does have is clumsy enough that it's generally the first thing to go when people houserule True20.

[potatocubed]

Try RuneQuest. It's as gritty as you like.

True20 uses a 'Toughness Save' mechanic (the same one from Mutants and Masterminds). If you get hit you make a Toughness Save against the damage - succeed and you shrug it off. Fail and you suffer one of several wound states depending on how badly you failed and what you were hit with.

The thing to note is that Toughness saves escalate more slowly than damage output (although that doesn't exactly skyrocket), so when someone skilled catches you a hit with a greataxe... well, ouch.

[Knaight]

Fudge, it works, is rules light, and a better hit(as in you go higher over their defense) hits harder. Its usually not instantly lethal, but there is always a chance of someone one shotting you with a dagger, plus if you want lethal you just use the meaner wound track(this replaces hit points, and is in my opinion much better). Its not super realistic, but it is decently realistic on the lethality thing, and even a non incapacitating hit can cause serious penalties, and those are relatively easy to inflict.

[Rei_Jin]

Traveller apparently handles it quite realistically, in that if you get hit, you're probably going down. Hard.

Best way to survive in that game is to never get hit.

I also like the Wound Point and Vitality Point system found in Unearthed Arcana (and used in Star Wars d20) as it makes Critical hits really, really dangerous.

[Superglucose]

Universal Decay. You have a low number of hit points, and most low level encounters aren't lethal. Now when you get to high levels, and you're wielding that uber barbed great war spear of doom? If I so much as tap anyone in the part with what I'm wielding (minimum damage) they are dropped to zero.

For some reason, despite being free, the UD download isn't working right now. PM me and I'll see what I can do.

[Knaight]

Speaking of free you can download Fudge for free, so you can at least take a look at the wound track for further notice, as it would be pretty easy to port it to D&D.

[Swok]

What about Alternity? There's plenty of deadliness to weapons in that system. As you will find very quickly if exposed to fully automatic weapons.

[Ulzgoroth]

The 'HP are also evasion' thing is often invoked for D&D, but absolutely does not extend to all systems. GURPS, and I think some of the other systems mentioned above, use hit points, but they really do mean injury. And that injury, at least in GURPS, really will mess you up right quick. A guy with a knife almost certainly won't kill you in one hit, unless he's quite strong, getting a lucky critical, or stabbing you in the eye, but he may mess you up pretty badly.

An x4 critical has nothing on a 'no active defense allowed' critical...

[Orak]

I would have to put a vote in for GURPS. It has a realistic weapon damage charts and has the option for incredible successes if the rolls line up (3d6 roll to hit so there is a 1 in 216 chance to roll a 18).

Fun to play and it is setup so that you can play in any setting and incorporate elements from and setting into your game. Gives incredible creative flexibility for the GM.

The only drawback is that you need to have fairly intelligent players to make the game smooth. Have to be able to add up 3d6 in their head instantly or gameplay bogs down. Character creation is also time consuming but very rewarding as you can create any character you can imagine. Once you have made all the calculations that you need to do for weapon damage, dodge, shield block, etc the game runs smoothly.

As for the damage system you can use optional hit locations so that limbs can be damaged or crippled. Specific locations can be targeted to increase damage. Armor works nicely too. It applys damage resistance and well as deflection. Makes heavily armored opponents tough, but specific weapons have bonuses to penetrating armor.

The aspect of gurps that I enjoyed the most was the ability to create any charater that I wanted and have the rules to support roleplaying (oh yeah, gurps is a great way for new players to expand their roleplaying skills)

[Tellah]

Victoriana (http://www.cubicle-7.com/victoriana.htm) 1st Edition has what I consider as realistic a damage system as I would want.

Characters have 3 point pools: health, stun, and resolve. These pools range in size from 5 points to 40, very occasionally more, and don't increase without significant expenditure of experience--so much so that it's just not worth it, really. Damage in any pool applies a penalty to all rolls, both active and defensive, so that a wounded character quickly becomes much more wounded if he stays in combat. Damage ranges from 1d6+1 (a punch from the weakest possible character) up to 6d6+8 for a saber weilded by a very strong person, so a hit is extremely likely to kill someone. Most guns do about as much damage, but since you can fire two barrels from a shotgun or "hose them down" with a gatling gun, gunfire is quite deadly. Furthermore, dodging a bullet is outright impossible, and it's all down to finding cover and hoping the other fellow is a poor shot.

I think Victoriana's combat system is very near to what Egiam's looking for. Of course, the setting is Victorian England, and the mechanics are very much tied to that idea, so running Victoriana hinges much more on whether you'd like to pretend to be a nineteenth century Briton or not.

[Egiam]

thanks tellah.
I guess I would like a generic system (gurps), because of the genre freedom, but Victoriana looks promising. Can you or anyone else tell me more about this?

I've been thinking about movie action, and I see that the characters rarely take a hit (think aragorn). when they get hit, it is usually really crippeling.
what i think i would like to see is a situation where the characters are hit slightly less, and hits, while not too lethal, debilitate, like in Star wars episode six, where leia is hit, but can still shoot with penalty. does something like this exist, or am I fantasizing?

[Knaight]

Fudge has this, just I need to go dig something up to find the whole hit negation aspect. Its right here. (http://www.fudgefactor.org/2005/08/cinematic-damage-alternatives.html)
Mix hit points in disguise with dramatic events, use defensive stances, and boom, exactly what you wanted.

[MeklorIlavator]

I've been thinking about movie action, and I see that the characters rarely take a hit (think aragorn). when they get hit, it is usually really crippeling.
what i think i would like to see is a situation where the characters are hit slightly less, and hits, while not too lethal, debilitate, like in Star wars episode six, where leia is hit, but can still shoot with penalty. does something like this exist, or am I fantasizing?

White Wolf's wound level system would probably fit. As you are injured, your wound levels fill, and each wound level gives penalties to certain things.

[Knaight]

Fudge has a very similar thing, M&M a somewhat similar thing, and Shadowrun a similar thing. So does Ars Magica, which like Fudge is free, but its less generic. You might just want to ditch hit points.

[Raum]

I have been anoyed for a long time with DND, in that it seems to me that the system rewards sort of carelessness with Hit points. my players don't worry about a guy with a dagger as they would in real life. a sword does 1d8, they have 12 HP. no chance of death unless they crit, causing a sence of "gaminess". now DND is a great game, but I'm looking for a game that really has much more reallism in the weapon damage. True20, Gurps?
Do any of you know of anything?There are many, just about any game which doesn't have health increasing as power increases is grittier / deadlier than D&D. A few for you to look at: Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay: gritty play in a world rife with death and disease - even surviving characters will be scarred
True20: At low levels it's much deadlier than D&D, however the Toughness save does increase with level.
Shadowrun: Bullets kill. 'Nuff said.
Savage Worlds: SW's grittiness really depends on bennies (think fate points) - as long as you have them you'll probably survive, when you run out you may not.I'm sure there are others, those are just a few I could list immediately.

[BizzaroStormy]

Cyberpunk 2020 with the "Litsen Up, You Primative Screwheads" combat rules is a pretty good system. At that point, you can be killed by almost anything. Even though once your character packs on enough armor it would take a minimum of an assault rifle to kill them.

But the system isnt without its flaws, the main one being that you cant always be sure that an attack will kill a player.
For those who havent played it:
[spoiler]Characters in the game have 40HP; no more, no less (unless you've been shot recently) Whenever you're damaged, you must make a save to be either stunned or killed.[/spoiler[

There came a time where my character took a headshot for exactly 40 damage but got AMAZING luck by making both his stun and death save, allowing him one more round to run up and melee the guy for a whopping 83 damage.

[amanamana]

You can also find this in GURPS.
Aragorn was hit rarely because he is good at fighting. A well trained fighter can be pretty safe from attacks from a less capable enemy. A group of enemies or a skilled one could put him in danger though. Also, something as stronger as that mountain troll could make parrying impossible (although dodging is still an option, if a hard one).
All this can be made in GURPS. The number of optional rules can add a lot of realism to combat, at the cost of some book keeping. I never minded this though. It's not THAT much.

[BobVosh]

Anyone play that old LotR RPG? Anything and everything was deadly. Best place to be was an archer. Behind everything else.

[BardicDuelist]

GURPS is what you're looking for. If I could make a recommendation, get the Character Generator. This is rather customizable (so your house-rules will work) and makes the book keeping easier.

If you don't mind paperwork and are creative, you really don't need any of the splats. Most of them don't really add anything "new" just do a lot of the work for you (and are so well researched that you will actually learn things and get good ideas, which is what source books are supposed to do). However, I also would recommend Martial Arts, as this is very well done and has a lot of very useful combat rules.

Be sure to limit flaws, etc. Especially the RP ones. You can power-game in GURPS, it's just far more complicated. Luckily, this is easily controlled as many of the options are meant to be denied based on genera and play-style.

[horseboy]

Traveler apparently handles it quite realistically, in that if you get hit, you're probably going down. Hard.
Yeah, all damage is applied to one of your three physical attributes. Attributes are created by rolling 2d6. They can randomly go up by up to +5 That's 17 max, or in Traveler "H". More likely you were around 7-A (10). Loose one stat, unconscious, loose two stats, dead. For damage we generally used 1d6 per full mm of the round, +1 for a rifle. So a 7.62mm assault rifle did 8d6 damage. Armour is mandatory to survival.
Shadow Run is good for grit. Rolemaster if you're quick at math, Harn if you like rolling dice, Earthdawn with it's exploding dice can make combat dangerous but still be "high fantasy". WW is okay, but I've seen WAY too many statistical outsiders to trust a d10 in that game. (Like rolling 46d10 and failing to generate a single net success).

[Artanis]

There's also (and I KNOW I'm going to be misunderstood by somebody), playing a Heroic Mortal campaign in Exalted. No, not normal Exalts, but mortals.

In many RPGs, you're a guy with a sword fighting another guy with a sword. In a Heroic Mortal campaign in Exalted, you're a guy with a sword fighting a demigod with a surfboard-sized slab of glowing death who can jump over a house and then set you on fire with his mere presence. That sort of matchup is going to be well beyond "hazardous" pretty much no matter what system you use :smalltongue:

[Kami2awa]

BRP (basic roleplay) is very realistic in terms of damage, and freely available in a Lite edition online. It's the system used for Call of Cthulhu and Runequest, and I've also used it for other things (including a Star Wars homebrew game).

[Roderick_BR]

Well, D&D *is* a game made for that sort of thing. The characters can survive several stabs of weapons, explosions, dragon fire breaths, etc.
Games like GURPS are made to be more realistic, as a stab with a sword can lethaly wound even an experienced warrior.
Hmm.. the only systems I can really point out are Gurps and Storyteller (Vampire, Werewolf, etc)

[Beleriphon]

I'm going to suggest Mutants and Masterminds. While nominally setup for superheroes several new books coming out may help you immensely. In particular Warriors and Warlocks is for adapting M&M to fantasy genres. The game has the distinct benefit that as a GM you can custom tailor the power level of the characters, and the lethality. Want to have a super lethal game, then declare all damage is automatically lethal damage.

The one thing you need to kind in mind though is most characters are not going to be felled by a single attack, although I would encourage most characters to be built using armour (which doesn't do much if not worn obviously) or Defensive Roll which is denies the character that portion of their toughness save if surprised. So an unarmoured, and surprised opponent is at a serious disadvantage if attacked while in that state.

[Mr Pants]

Unhallowed Metropolis

Its got a fantastic wound system in which any attack could be fatal or severe. It has complications, such as losing an arm, except they describe it in much more gruesome detail. It's one of the best systems I've ever seen. It's 2d10 btw.

[Mike_G]

I don't know if it's still in print, but Harnmaster used a pretty gritty system. Damage was cross indexed to hit location, and the result gave a specific mechanical penalty, such as a move penatly, penalty to climb, jump, etc for a leg hit, and possbily a percenatge chance of passing out or dying for a hit to a vital area.

Accumulated damage points penalized all your skills, which were percentile, so 10 points of damage gave you a blanket -10 on all skill checks and attacks.

You could, in theory, take an infinite number of minor wounds and survive, but the cumulative penalty on you rolls would mean you'd never hit, never avoid an attack, and would eventually fail one of your rolls to survive a moderate or severe wound.

Which is more realistic that shrugging off the first 99 points of damage with no ill effects, then falling over from the 2 point dagger attack.

[Egiam]

Can any of you guys describe the "to hit roll" system for WOD, Victoriana, gurps, and fudge?

Yes, Harn is still in print, and I love the other games Columbia Games makes. :smallsmile:

What exactly is Fudge, or more specifically, why is it called that?

Thanks again for commenting!

[amanamana]

Can any of you guys describe the "to hit roll" system for WOD, Victoriana, gurps, and fudge?

Yes, Harn is still in print, and I love the other games Columbia Games makes. :smallsmile:

What exactly is Fudge, or more specifically, why is it called that?

Thanks again for commenting!

In GURPS you have a specific combat skill level (like: broadswords 14) that you have to achieve in a 3d6 roll (14 or less on the roll, by the example). You can have bonuses or minuses on your roll (ex: making a full attack or aiming for the legs, respectively). If you make the roll, the target have to make his defense roll (if he's not incapable, somehow). This go the same way, except that your defensive values usually are lower than your offensive values. If he faill, you hit.

[RPGuru1331]

Can any of you guys describe the "to hit roll" system for WOD, Victoriana, gurps, and fudge?

Yes, Harn is still in print, and I love the other games Columbia Games makes. :smallsmile:

What exactly is Fudge, or more specifically, why is it called that?

Thanks again for commenting!

In Storyteller (WoD) systems, you roll D10s equal to Attribute + Ability for pretty much everything. Most combat values are going to be Dexterity + Firearms/Melee/Brawl. Each 8, 9, or 10 is a success, with 10s also giving a reroll. You add up successes, and compare them to the target's DV (Which is basically an averaged number of successes for their defensive values). Extra successes carry over to become extra dice for the damage roll.

[potatocubed]

Harnmaster ... You could, in theory, take an infinite number of minor wounds and survive, but the cumulative penalty on you rolls would mean you'd never hit, never avoid an attack, and would eventually fail one of your rolls to survive a moderate or severe wound.

As I recall, the Silhouette system (used by Dream Pod 9 for Heavy Gear and most of their other games) is similar. It's more abstract - every wound just gives penalties to everything rather than tracking by hit location - but it's still all about the cumulative wound penalties taking you down.

On the other hand, I have used that system to take out a tank with a sniper rifle, so I suspect it's not quite balanced right. :smalltongue:

[Kantur]

In Storyteller (WoD) systems, you roll D10s equal to Attribute + Ability for pretty much everything. Most combat values are going to be Dexterity + Firearms/Melee/Brawl. Each 8, 9, or 10 is a success, with 10s also giving a reroll. You add up successes, and compare them to the target's DV (Which is basically an averaged number of successes for their defensive values). Extra successes carry over to become extra dice for the damage roll.

Unless it's OWoD, where the difficulty changes depending on the weapon. (E.g. Punches hit on a 6 I believe it is, 10s don't give another dice, and 1s cancel off a success.) Then you get a pool of Strength (For melee), any additional hit successes and a modifier based on the weapon. Then the opponent gets a chance to soak wounds using their stamina and any supernatural stuff that helps.
Note: I may be a little confused about some of this, but my books are about 30miles away at the moment.

V Shope do only stock New, unless they have a second hand section, but places that sell legal pdfs, online shops like Amazon and, of course, auction sites tend to have a fair amount of OWoD, often reasonably cheap unless it's the revised edition rulebooks.

[RPGuru1331]

Nobody new jumps into oWoD anymore, I hope and pray. Shops really only stock nWoD, assuming oWoD is even available to stock new.

[Talic]

The newest incarnation of Legend of the Five Rings is a pretty lethal system.

[warmachine]

To address the OP, you are not annoyed with D&D, you are really annoyed with high power, heroic genres. D&D is a high power fantasy game and, at higher levels, you are SUPPOSED to be able to rip apart armies. Even at 1st level, you are supposed to be elite combatants and weaker opponents should consume few resources to fight. It is opponents with a higher CR than the party that have a significant risk of death and, even then, not too high. No one likes their high power heroes dying too often. Imagine a member of the 'A' Team being killed every few episodes. It would not fit the high power, heroic genre. You are not just playing the wrong game, you are playing the wrong genre.

I don't know about other systems but I also recommend GURPS.

[Kami2awa]

Looking at this board, it seems there are a lot more realistic injury systems than unrealistic ones.

[Cheesegear]

If you can get your hands on some of the old Inquisitor books (Basically, what came before Dark Heresy). =][='s damage tables seemed pretty realistic (there was some crazy stuff at the 90+ marks). Yeah, your arm could come off, but it never became shrapnel. I still don't like those DH crit tables.

In =][=, there was also an ability called Knife Fighter, or something similar, where all hits from a knife are crits. Playing in a low-tech scenario with dual-wielding knife assassins was scary stuff.

[Artanis]

Can any of you guys describe the "to hit roll" system for WOD, Victoriana, gurps, and fudge?

Yes, Harn is still in print, and I love the other games Columbia Games makes. :smallsmile:

What exactly is Fudge, or more specifically, why is it called that?

Thanks again for commenting!
As an addendum to RPGuru1331's post, Exalted is almost identical to WoD except that 7s are also counted as successes and 10s automatically count as two, rather than one plus a reroll.

[Ulzgoroth]

Looking at this board, it seems there are a lot more realistic injury systems than unrealistic ones.
Er, I really doubt it.

It's just that there may be enormously more RPG systems, and thus injury systems (well, for most of them) than you might guess. I suspect median realism falls someplace between 'well, vaguely' and 'not even close'...if you could somehow come up with an ordering.

[Egiam]

How much does Victoriana 2e cost?

[golentan]

I'm going to plug for Traveller 20's system for lethal damage. You do gain hit dice, but it only affects nonlethal damage. For lethal damage you have (CON+racial modifiers+size modifiers) and you never get more. You can houserule that you start bleeding before reaching negatives, and things turn deadly very, very quickly. You can pick up the quickstart rules for free, and adapt the lethal/nonlethal rules to any D20 game (except obviously True20).

[OverdrivePrime]

Before I try to do it myself, does anyone know of an existing project somewhere on the Cybertubes where someone's modified Shadowrun 3rd or 4th edition to fit in a medieval or present day type setting? I imagine it shouldn't be too hard - just rip out the cyberware and bio ware and restat the weapons and armor.

I really love the Shadowrun system, but most of my game group tends to shy away from cyberpunk and almost all of us would prefer to play in a gritty dark ages or medieval setting if given the choice.

[Irreverent Fool]

I'm fond of the Cyberpunk2020 2nd edition FNFF damage system. A grazing bullet can potentially put you out of a fight. I have no idea how one might mesh this with D&D. I did use it once when the PC's came across a firearm... with disastrous consequences.


Before I try to do it myself, does anyone know of an existing project somewhere on the Cybertubes where someone's modified Shadowrun 3rd or 4th edition to fit in a medieval or present day type setting? I imagine it shouldn't be too hard - just rip out the cyberware and bio ware and restat the weapons and armor.

I really love the Shadowrun system, but most of my game group tends to shy away from cyberpunk and almost all of us would prefer to play in a gritty dark ages or medieval setting if given the choice.

That doesn't seem too difficult to homebrew, really. Surgical removal of the bits that don't fit, and you're halfway there.

[The Valiant Turtle]

O how I miss Rolemaster. Cracking ribs, severing limbs, and making the top inch of my foes head go flying off like a frisbee. Those were the days...

Oh sorry, where was I.

Yes RoleMaster combat was fun, but I think GURPS, ShadowRun or most of White Wolfs offerings are probably your best choices.