Haley, Celia and Belkar in deep trouble[spoiler]

[Ronan]

The Guild is coming to get them, we found that Haleys innate Sense Motive doesn't work too good, since Old Blind Pete betrayed them...
...and the cleric of Loki has a goatee...

[RMS Oceanic]

The Cleric's goatee may indeed hint that he is of Evil alignment, but I think he has a vested interest in assisting Haley in her escape.

[MammonAzrael]

I'm also inclined to believe that Pete's Bluff check is quite high, thanks to his surviving so long in such a city while blind. He also probably had a decent circumstantial modifier against Haley, since it was obvious she trusted him at least a little.

And I'll second the Cleric of Loki being evil (and probably neutral) and having quite the interest in surviving, which will likely mean helping out the trio.

[Theodoriph]

I don't really see how any of this thread is a spoiler and I'm also not too sure what exactly it is we're supposed to discuss.

It's quite obvious they're in deep trouble...the members of the guild are going to try to kill them. But that was self-evident from the comic. Is there something I'm missing?


Unless you're suggesting the cleric is going to betray them to the guild...but that would be pointless, since they're already betrayed. Besides, the cleric seem somewhat savvy with regards to comic. He should know to stay on the side of the PCs.

[Thant]

Neutral? No, I think the cleric-dude is more of a lawful evil type of guy:smalltongue:

[Mike62]

The cleric isnt going to betray them. He's in as much trouble as they are. After all, hes not supposed to be helping them, and when the guild comes busting in, with all guns blazing (so to speak), they arent going to be listening to any excuses.

[Red XIV]

Neutral? No, I think the cleric-dude is more of a lawful evil type of guy:smalltongue:
Lawful? He is a cleric of Loki (a Chaotic Evil god), and he's defying his superiors by going against the wishes of the Thieves Guild. The cleric clearly is either Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral, with Evil being more likely.

[Aquillion]

On top of this: The people who want him are his own guild, not the thieves' guild. Even if he sells out Haley and the rest, it wouldn't protect him now that the secret is out.

[Lycan 01]

Wouldn't helping somebody even though the forces of evil are determined to destroy them at least slightly constitute as good?

I mean, I figured a CE guy would just ignore them, if not help in hunting them down. But then again, greed is a good motivator... XD

[Lord_Butters_I]

Wouldn't helping somebody even though the forces of evil are determined to destroy them at least slightly constitute as good?

Evil kills evil all the time. Less competitors for world domination.

[Lokasenna]

Wouldn't helping somebody even though the forces of evil are determined to destroy them at least slightly constitute as good?

I mean, I figured a CE guy would just ignore them, if not help in hunting them down. But then again, greed is a good motivator... XD

He isn't necessarily CE, he could be CN. And even if he is CE, he doesn't seem to be like Belkar, so he probably wouldn't kill someone for making him commit a quasi-Good act. And he came, under great danger if he was found, to an old friend's house because that friend asked him to. Yes, he did it for money, but he would have been safer if he hadn't and he knows it. This doesn't scream CE to me.

[Theodoriph]

Wouldn't helping somebody even though the forces of evil are determined to destroy them at least slightly constitute as good?

I mean, I figured a CE guy would just ignore them, if not help in hunting them down. But then again, greed is a good motivator... XD



You seem to be under impression that in D&D, there is a "force of evil". There isn't. In D&D, there is a concept evil and of what constitutes people. There are evil creatures. There are evil organizations,cults, groups, but there is no unifying force that binds them together.

Evin within species, evil isn't unified. Devils for instance are evil. But every major devil has their own plans, their own wishes, their own desires. They don't all work together. They even oppose one another from time to time.

There is no Sauron, or Sauron-like figure that binds almost all evil to them.

[Spiky]

There is no Sauron, or Sauron-like figure that binds almost all evil to them.

Note that about a tenth of that story was based on the differing evil of Mordor's and Saruman's orcs. Not to mention another separate evil called Gollum.

So, actually another example of evil not all joining one specific side.

[Another_Poet]

we found that Haleys innate Sense Motive doesn't work too good, since Old Blind Pete betrayed them...

She didn't fail a Sense Motive check; she didn't even make a Sense Motive check. She trusted Blind Pete implicitly, and so she she didn't roll it at all.

A foolish move on her part, but understandable. At least in the campaigns I play in we don't Sense Motive every NPC, and usually not ones who we trust/have helped us before. And if you don't actively declare it, the DM sure isn't going to roll it in secret for you.

ap

[Theodoriph]

Note that about a tenth of that story was based on the differing evil of Mordor's and Saruman's orcs. Not to mention another separate evil called Gollum.

So, actually another example of evil not all joining one specific side.


Saruman worked for Sauron. So while he did try to betray him later, they were technically on the same side.

That's the best literary example I could think of. :smallsmile: Which goes to show you how often evil is unified. Wheel of Time is fairly unified, but even then you have Fain on one side, and different factions within the Dark One's side. They all work for the Dark One though, which does unify them in a manner, even if they work against each other.

If I wanted to be more specific, I could say that in Book 1 of both LOTR and WoT, evil was a farily unified concept. After that, it spreads out a bit.

[hamishspence]

PHB 3.5: "Good and evil are not philosophical concepts in the D&D game. They are the forces that define the cosmos"

That said, even Evil guys can have loyalties to friends (Savage Species) or work with Good beings against a major threat (Exalted Deeds).

So, cleric of Loki can help them, and they can accept it, whether he is evil or not.

Now, if helping them requires him to commit evil acts (a sapient sacrifice to bring Roy back?) accepting that help would be morally dubious.

[Sinewmire]

Traditionally evil cannot be unified, it's one of the defining factors.

Sauron, for example, lacks empathy, which allows him to be unspeakably cruel. However, because he has no empathy, he can't see other people not being like him - untrustworthy and power hungry. It was one of the key points of Lord of the Rings - that Sauron and Saruman cannot imagine that anyone wouldn't want the power of the Ring. That the fellowship had decided to destroy it was beyond their comprehension.
Thus, paranoia.
In that sort of situation, tensions mount until somebody blinks, then it's all over bar the Nazgúl.

[ChowGuy]

Wouldn't helping somebody even though the forces of evil are determined to destroy them at least slightly constitute as good?

I mean, I figured a CE guy would just ignore them, if not help in hunting them down. But then again, greed is a good motivator... XD
Chaotic is the governing factor here. Even if he's "Evil," he's not compelled to attack "Good." He can (and is expected to) do whatever is in his own best interests. And at the moment, that means siding with Haley, because he's toast for betrayng the Guild anyway.

[headhoncho]

I note two things.

1) I think Celia is an "Elemental" type, which would make her immune to critical hits, sneak attacks and I believe an assassin's death attacks. I hope that comes into play in this fight.

2) I cannot wait to see the wrath of Durkon when he arrives in Greysky City, what with a Loki temple and a den full of thieves awaiting him. High-level clerics who have time to prep are probably the buffest PCs around, I'd love to see him destroy the Loki temple all by himself!

[hamishspence]

Sylphs are Outsiders from the Plane of Air, not Elementals.

[headhoncho]

Sylphs are Outsiders from the Plane of Air, not Elementals.

Well, so much for my theory, then. ;)

[hamishspence]

well, they are pretty obscure (MM2) and not quite like Celia (Size small, not medium) The Giant sometimes adjusts monster size: goblins, Celia, Big Red Devil.

[headhoncho]

well, they are pretty obscure (MM2) and not quite like Celia (Size small, not medium) The Giant sometimes adjusts monster size: goblins, Celia, Big Red Devil.

Or maybe she has enough HD to be advanced to Medium size? She was supposed to be a tough guardian, after all.

[David Argall]

She didn't fail a Sense Motive check; she didn't even make a Sense Motive check. She trusted Blind Pete implicitly, and so she she didn't roll it at all.

A foolish move on her part, but understandable. At least in the campaigns I play in we don't Sense Motive every NPC, and usually not ones who we trust/have helped us before. And if you don't actively declare it, the DM sure isn't going to roll it in secret for you.


While it is often not bothered with, Sense Motive is a passive check, You, or the DM, roll any time there is a reason to. You do not have to request one and properly should autofail if you request one [unless the DM was going to roll it for you anyway.]

[Ronan]

Well... the topic was supposed to be a joke with the goatee thing, but it turned into a productive debate on evil. If I may :smallbiggrin: :

Being CE means that cleric is clearly unpredictable, and rezzing someone for money doesn't make him less evil. A healer can be evil, he just needs to do it for his own reasons, and not the wounded person, animal, or thing.He can be like Therkla, willing to help for some reason that benefits him.

But surely he would be a nice ally, since he is a friend of Pete, who maybe is not betraying Haley.

[Aquillion]

Also: Who thinks Celia's inability to be raised from the dead is going to become a Chekhov's gun, resulting in her eventual death / near-death? Aside from her, there are very few characters in the cast whose deaths can be milked for tension beyond "oh, damn, that'll cost us a lot of money and a sidequest."

[David Argall]

2) I cannot wait to see the wrath of Durkon when he arrives in Greysky City, what with a Loki temple and a den full of thieves awaiting him. High-level clerics who have time to prep are probably the buffest PCs around, I'd love to see him destroy the Loki temple all by himself!

Our nameless cleric is of substantial level, and has several superiors in the temple. And of course they can call on Crystal and other thieves. Durkon gets dusted if he tries to destroy the temple.

[Varkarrus]

Do clerics learn any offensive spells? He'd probably prepare some, seeing as he's quite paranoid.

[hamishspence]

entry doesn't specify size increase. Some monsters just don't get them, even advanced to max HD.

[Aquillion]

Our nameless cleric is of substantial level, and has several superiors in the temple. And of course they can call on Crystal and other thieves. Durkon gets dusted if he tries to destroy the temple.
Also, Durkon is lawful. Going into a rage and burning down a temple full of healers (even evil healers) is not lawful.

[snoopy13a]

Lawful? He is a cleric of Loki (a Chaotic Evil god), and he's defying his superiors by going against the wishes of the Thieves Guild. The cleric clearly is either Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral, with Evil being more likely.

Is Loki Chaotic Evil? Couldn't he be Neutral Evil (unless it was stated in one of the books that he is CE, of course)?

Whether or not the cleric is neutral or evil hasn't been established yet.

[Ronan]

Loki is the lord of flames and mischief, which I guess is pretty chaotic. As for the evil part, I guess it's debatable, since fire can be good. But he surely ain't good -> because of mischief

[hamishspence]

Deities and Demigods Loki is CE, however, it stresses that his actions are mostly CN, until he kills Baldur.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

While it is often not bothered with, Sense Motive is a passive check, You, or the DM, roll any time there is a reason to. You do not have to request one and properly should autofail if you request one [unless the DM was going to roll it for you anyway.]
Making a hunch is active. It's, "Okay, I'm going to pay attention to what this guy's like. Figure out what makes him tick." That's active

Resisting a Bluff is passive. It's just like Spotting the assassing sneaking up on you. If it happens, you get a chance to resist.

[David Argall]

Making a hunch is active. It's, "Okay, I'm going to pay attention to what this guy's like. Figure out what makes him tick." That's active

And in some overwhelming percentage of the case, it's also metagaming. In any of a thousand ways, the player has suspicions his character would not.
We can acknowledge the theoretical idea of an active sense motive, but the practical case is that the sense motive is passive, and always on.

[holywhippet]

Lawful? He is a cleric of Loki (a Chaotic Evil god), and he's defying his superiors by going against the wishes of the Thieves Guild. The cleric clearly is either Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral, with Evil being more likely.

Isn't Thor already the wrong alignment compared to the D&D rules? If that is the case, I don't see why Loki is neccessarily his expected alignment. If the cleric was chaotic evil, surely he'd take Haley's money and also betray them to the guild for a finders fee? His methods strike me as being either chaotic neutral or chaotic good - he is going against the rules to help out an old friend.

[hamishspence]

we don't know what Thors alignment is in Stick. in D&D Deities and Demigods, he's CG. In Stick, he seems to act Very CG. But Durkon is LG.

Maybe One step rule is granted exceptions- for dwarves, who are Often LG. or doesn't apply at all in Stickverse.

Senior Priest of Thor didn't seem especially Lawful in Origin of PCs.

[Warlord JK]

Is Durkon LG? Because I haven't ever seen it stated and he strikes me as a more NG with tendency toward law because of his dwarven heritage.

[hamishspence]

Origin: "he's so Lawful, if I command him to stay till I send for him, he will, even if it means spending rest of his life away"

He's also very careful to avoid lying to Miko.

[holywhippet]

Is Durkon LG? Because I haven't ever seen it stated and he strikes me as a more NG with tendency toward law because of his dwarven heritage.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html

He's lawful something.