OOTS #603 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Pronounceable]

Haley's gonna kick a lot of asses...

And the cleric survived another strip. Hooray, all around...

[The Rose Dragon]

Poor Toby. He wasn't even in three panels before he died.

And he had a name, too.

[Zenos]

Good comic. :smallbiggrin:

[Jan Mattys]

I like the message to Durkon.
I wonder how it will be perceived.

Uhm, and they left Belkar behind...

[Iuris]

I do hope Haley does have the money for the triple fees... It'd be rather embarassing to find herself out of money to resurrect Roy because she had to spend it all on other spells...

(I assume that money is not limitless, given that she did not want to spend any for Belkar's cure)

BTW, I love how things are MOVING again. All that slow development really accentuates the action of this series :)

[SPoD]

I do hope Haley does have the money for the triple fees... It'd be rather embarassing to find herself out of money to resurrect Roy because she had to spend it all on other spells...

(I assume that money is not limitless, given that she did not want to spend any for Belkar's cure)

Well, if the cleric successfully contacts Durkon, she won't need to spend money on Roy's resurrection. Durkon will do it for free when he gets there.

[FoE]

"Yeah, that was before I remembered everyone I grew up with was an *******." Fantastic. :smallbiggrin:

[Koshiro]

I thought Haley was being unnecessarily mean and preachy when she initially refused to have Belkar de-cursed. After all, she didn't know whom he killed and why - and, his personality nonwithstanding, most of the time he killed someone in the recent past it was a bad guy.

But now she's just being stupid. She should have him healed ASAP, even if it was just to prod him towards the front line as a makeshift meatshield. (Belkar, with his proven singleminded destructiveness, would probably not even notice, much less mind, it.)

[The Rose Dragon]

Waiiiit... ******* is used in the comic, but it is censored on the boards?

How's that work?

[Ridureyu]

Haley had better never meet Michael Vick.

Or maybe she should...

[Dr. Cthulwho]

I think "woo Haley, you go girl" about covers it. :smallbiggrin:

Can't wait for the next strip.

[SPoD]

I thought Haley was being unnecessarily mean and preachy when she initially refused to have Belkar de-cursed. After all, she didn't know whom he killed and why - and, his personality nonwithstanding, most of the time he killed someone in the recent past it was a bad guy.

The last person he killed in front of Haley was an innocent gnome traveler.


But now she's just being stupid. She should have him healed ASAP, even if it was just to prod him towards the front line as a makeshift meatshield. (Belkar, with his proven singleminded destructiveness, would probably not even notice, much less mind, it.)

And what would she have done with him afterwards? She knows she can't control him. Plus, she already refused to have him de-cursed in front of him, so if he is de-cursed now, he may well turn on her. And she still can't win against him in a close-range duel.

[Dark Wolf]

Wait. Sneak attack? He's standing there looking at her. He's standing there talking to her. Is it a sneak attack because she suddenly attacks in the middle of a conversation. Which interrupted a fight.

Granted the fight could be said to start with him speaking first, then Haley, then his turn again, then Haley uses a sneak attack. I thought speaking was a free action though.

Must remember that's how the rules work :)

[pearl jam]

Another fun comic.

I don't imagine there's any real significance to the thread icon, unless it's supposed to represent Haley's mood in this case, but I found it funny that the strip update thread has an icon usually used for complaining.

:smalltongue:

[SPoD]

Wait. Sneak attack? He's standing there looking at her. He's standing there talking to her. Is it a sneak attack because she suddenly attacks in the middle of a conversation. Which interrupted a fight. Must remember that's how the rules work :)

All you have to do to get a sneak attack when there's not surprise round is win initiative. Which she clearly does, since she calls for the initiative roll in the same panel. So in other words, it goes like this:

DM: The rogue draws his daggers and advances. Roll initiative; he got a 10.
Haley's Player: I got a 17! Sneak Attack!

[Paragraph]

And what would she have done with him afterwards? She knows she can't control him. Plus, she already refused to have him de-cursed in front of him, so if he is de-cursed now, he may well turn on her. And she still can't win against him in a close-range duel.
Or he just dies in the battle against the guild.

This is a likely outcome, in my opinion. Haley gets beaten but not killed, Celia gets away. The guild breaks in the room, the cleric heals Belkar to have a weapon ready, but Belkar kills him and wreaks havoc among the thieves, but fails ultimately and dies before Celia performs a deus ex machina or something.

Simon

[Generalissimus]

I like the message to Durkon.
I wonder how it will be perceived.

Uhm, and they left Belkar behind...

I think the cleric is going to cure Belkar´s condition. That´s the better chance of himself (and Celia, and Haley) surviving this encounter.

[Santiago]

Woo! Go Haley!

[Grunjon]

I have to admit, #602 - and I didn't want to post this - left me rolling my eyes a bit and wondering "how long will this drag out?"

Now with #603, I feel newly invigorated! This comic just KICKED ASS. I *loved* Haley's quickly-made-up plan, I loved her taking charge and the thoughtful way she implemented the plan. I loved her moment of regret over knowing the people she would fight and her quick change of heart about it when it hit her about just how well she really does know these people.

But, all in all, the BEST part is that I see light at the end of the tunnel, and hope that the Order will finally be together again as a group. Perhaps sans V at the moment, but hey! If we can get Roy resurrected, and get Roy/Haley/Belkar/Celia (yeah, I'll include her at this time) back with Elan and Durkon, then I'll call it a win right now!!! :smallbiggrin:

Anyway...great job, Giant. And yeah, I'll include 602 in that compliment, since it set up 603. Which is part of the fun, right?

And yeah...I like the cleric. I hope he's not TOO temporary. If he filled in V's spot on the team for a while, I wouldn't mind it too much. Still, I would love to see V back before too long. In the real world, groups split up and change over time...but this is fiction, and the focus of the story is on this group. I'd rather it be more like the Peanuts with a largely unchanging (possibly expanding) cast of characters. And less like the Justice League, with its rotating cast of changing (and sometimes forgettable; anyone else remember Vibe besides me?) characters.

[Dark Wolf]

All you have to do to get a sneak attack when there's not surprise round is win initiative. Which she clearly does, since she calls for the initiative roll in the same panel.

Ok. It seems I'm confusing Surprise attack and Sneak attack.

[Elder Tsofu]

Darn, I sure hope that the cleric ressurects belkar so he can do his heroic last stand there. And as he takes his last shuddering breaths Haley will forgive him his missdeeds, or smth.
Yeah I know this is so cliché, but anyway

[Laurentio II]

I think the cleric is going to cure Belkar´s condition. That´s the better chance of himself (and Celia, and Haley) surviving this encounter.
My thought, too. I don't remember clerical spell, but could the Loki priest dominate or impose a quest on the feebled Belkar (his Will save should be even more rubbish that normal, this moment), than de-curse him to use as meat shield?

[Dr. Cthulwho]

I thought Haley was being unnecessarily mean and preachy when she initially refused to have Belkar de-cursed. After all, she didn't know whom he killed and why - and, his personality nonwithstanding, most of the time he killed someone in the recent past it was a bad guy.

Really the only people Belkar's killed in the "recent past" was a hobgoblin, a gnome trader and the Oracle - and Haley knows whoever Belkar killed must have been at the Oracle's place, since that is where he became ill, ergo that is where his mark activated.

And in the case of the first two neither of them were planned and certainly highlighted in Haley's eye how little control she really had over him.


But now she's just being stupid. She should have him healed ASAP, even if it was just to prod him towards the front line as a makeshift meatshield. (Belkar, with his proven singleminded destructiveness, would probably not even notice, much less mind, it.)

I don't think so, she seems to have a plan, and a fairly pragmatic one at that. Belkar, being Belkar, could be a dangerous variable. Sure, he probably would happily kill the thieves. Afterwards? Chaotic evil, unpredictable Belkar in evil city with no MoJ or Roy to control him?

At the very least he's safe where he is.

[raphfrk]

Btw, anyone think Celia's reference to her not being able to be raised is a bad sign?

[Njord]

I loved the strip.
I think everything went pretty cool and I loved Celia`s drawing of the old Durkon on the wall.

I do to wonder if the message may be messed with, specially with the guild gets in the room while he is casting it and somehow disrupt the spell.

Im also wondering if:

Haley and Celia are surrounded. they are both wounded. badly. Then the big boss cames along. And when they think its their end... V shows up, looking like hell (perhaps literally) to save the day and kills everyone. (except for celia and haley).
After all we do not know what V has been doing for the past 8 days and if he indeed made any contracts with the imp.

It would also be great because at first, haley perhaps wouldn`t notice the crazy-evil thing going on with V - he saved her after all - but when se goes hug him... se realizes how twisted her friend has become.


Oh good moments

[InuSaga]

I lol'ed at the last panel. I haven't done that in a while. :smallbiggrin:

[Laurentio II]

(and sometimes forgettable; anyone else remember Vibe besides me?)
Yeah, Vibe. The Marvel's Victor rip-off. Or the one Victor ripped off. Or... but really, who cares?

[RMS Oceanic]

I think Haley's talking to Toby was to make him temporarily forget she was a threat, so she would then get a surprise round, and all that that entails.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

I think Bozzok gave his crew the old "Make sure you attack the good guy...er girl one at a time" speech.

[RMS Oceanic]

I think Bozzok gave his crew the old "Make sure you attack the good guy...er girl one at a time" speech.

It's a set of stairs inside a house, it's not like he can order a full cavalry charge.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Best way to start the day! An action packed OOTS! Does your body good!

[Kurald Galain]

The irony is that Durkon would have had a teleporting wizard around if somebody had bothered to raise him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0379.html) from the dead...

[Laurentio II]

It's a set of stairs inside a house, it's not like he can order a full cavalry charge.
And having archers covering the melee one is totally out of thieves mentality, I suppose.
I'm the only one to notice that they are in a fully lighted underground, in a place that is supposedly secret and held by a blind guy? Should not be at least partially dark, allowing thieves to crawl in?
No, thieves charge frontally, one by one, on a ranged defender.

[Adeptus]

Brilliant comic today Giant! :smallsmile:

[Pepz]

Loved it :) good job to the cleric for surviving yet another strip

[Killer Munchkin]

I'm very afraid that Haley is going to run out of arrows....

[Blaznak]

This was an excellent comic. One of the singularly best in, like, forever. I felt the character development, dialogue, reactions to environment, etc. were just dead on. Good job!

Later...

[turkishproverb]

Now THAT was interesting. love the reason she got over hurting people she grew up with.

I'm hoping DUrkon didn't take more ranks in knowledge religion, as he might ignore a cleric of Loki giving that spell. :P

[Coke_Can64]

Yay, go Haley! :smallsmile:

Even if the priest removes the curse off Belkar, don't D&D doors lock both ways? (I'm guessing that Belkar doesn't have diddly-squat in lockpicking) :smalltongue:

[Parlik]

Celia: I thought you said this would be hard for you.
Haley: Yeah that was before I remembered that everyone I grew up with is an *******.

Heh I just love that part of it. I just know I am going to quote that over and over.

[Zar Peter]

The last two panels are great. Made me nearly laugh loud at work.

Awesome Comic!

[Maryring]

That was a very good comic.

[TerrickTerran]

And having archers covering the melee one is totally out of thieves mentality, I suppose.
I'm the only one to notice that they are in a fully lighted underground, in a place that is supposedly secret and held by a blind guy? Should not be at least partially dark, allowing thieves to crawl in?
No, thieves charge frontally, one by one, on a ranged defender.

That's why this particular one is threatening to break my mind..along with that apparently Haley has an unlimited amount of arrows if she can hold off all these rogues for 100 rounds. (Of course since it only seems to take two arrows to kill anyone no matter their level, I guess that's moot)

[Parlik]

That's why this particular one is threatening to break my mind..along with that apparently Haley has an unlimited amount of arrows if she can hold off all these rogues for 100 rounds. (Of course since it only seems to take two arrows to kill anyone no matter their level, I guess that's moot)

Well assuming Haley is pure Rogue and 13th level? Each of those two arrows would have +7d6 on them from the sneak attack, and that is before adding potential feats, bonuses and crits, so we are talking at least 16d6 damage here (not sure what kind of bow she is using so is sticking with d6), which is an average of 56 points of damage, so yeah those two arrows should hurt.

[XenoGeno]

Somewhat amusingly, my dog is named Toby. But yeah, good strip, nice to get some action again, etc.

[Laurentio II]

Somewhat amusingly, my dog is named Toby. But yeah, good strip, nice to get some action again, etc.
And he helds the local men fighting ring? Heartless beast!

[nosignal]

And having archers covering the melee one is totally out of thieves mentality, I suppose.
I'm the only one to notice that they are in a fully lighted underground, in a place that is supposedly secret and held by a blind guy? Should not be at least partially dark, allowing thieves to crawl in?
No, thieves charge frontally, one by one, on a ranged defender.

Well, to be fair we've only seen ONE thief "charge frontally". There are dozens more.

Maybe the lower level mooks were ordered to charge in just to expend Haley's arrows. The rest are probably planning something more devious to trap/kill our heroes, though Crystal seems like the trigger-happy type.

I predict some taunting and possibly gas grenades(?) to smoke them out.
Fingers-crossed for some Mr. Scruffy action.

[Raz_Fox]

:smalleek: I forgot about that - Outsiders can't be raised. Uh-oh. This spells trouble - if not right here, right now then sometime in the future that's going to come back to bite Roy+Celia.

Meanwhile, Haley's got to be careful. If she's using up the awesome now, how will she use it when the real battle comes? :smallconfused:

I can't wait for the next strip! :smallbiggrin:

[Vulion]

All right, some good ol' Oots action!

[Oslecamo]

It's a set of stairs inside a house, it's not like he can order a full cavalry charge.

They're a guild of theives, since when do thieves charge head on against a target?

Anyway, great comic.

Thief leader: My mooks will cover up the sun!
Haley:Then I will shoot them in the shade.

[Moonshadow]

No matter, Haley has Many Shot >_>;

[Belkster11]

Wait, Celia has lightning, right? All Haley has to tell her is: "Celia, shoot them with your lightening. They're--"

Oh...right...This is a sylph who stopped the tracks just to look for a discarded chocolate bar on the off chance some puppy would devour it.

Yeah...I think Haley should say: "Celia, tell the cleric to heal Belkar!"

But the cleric may not know the password...

Yeah...they're royally screwed...

[Platinum_Mongoose]

Nice touch, keeping the Sending message to 25 words exactly.

[RebelRogue]

I love that the Sending is exactly 25 words long... Also, it's good to see Haley kick som ass(holes)! :smallbiggrin:

[Maurice]

I think the thing about outsiders not being able to be raised is a big, fat tell. Celia's going to step in when Haley starts to get overwhelmed during the big fight, and she's going to get killed. And once she does, they're going to trade her body to Grubwiggler for Roy's golem, since she can't use it anymore and there's no need to get anyone else killed storming the castle if they can resolve things nonviolently.

It kind of fits with the whole film noir vibe of this sidetrack. "Forget it, Roy, it's Greysky City."

[HOLEkevin]

OMG! I had exactly the same reaction when I went to my first High School reunion!

[T.D.O.W.]

Well, to be fair we've only seen ONE thief "charge frontally". There are dozens more.

Maybe the lower level mooks were ordered to charge in just to expend Haley's arrows. The rest are probably planning something more devious to trap/kill our heroes, though Crystal seems like the trigger-happy type.



I'm vaguely reminded of the climactic Crazy 88s battle in Kill Bill.
Though there are no doubt many better-apt cinematic comparisons...

[SwordOfUriel]

True Resurrection would bring her back! Or Limited Wish...

And V strikes me as someone who would be gunning for Limited Wish...

[Lance]

"Yeah, that was before I remembered everyone I grew up with was an *******." Fantastic. :smallbiggrin:


Waiiiit... ******* is used in the comic, but it is censored on the boards?

How's that work?

LOL! You have now entered... the Erfworld Zone. :D

(Dee Dee doo doo, Dee Dee doo doo, Dee Dee doo doo...)

[pendell]

I'm loving this strip because I don't know what's going to happen next. Any or all of them might die. I like it that I'm kept guessing!

My wife felt the same way about the people she grew up with, although to the best of my knowledge she never killed any of them with arrows.

Somehow, I don't feel inclined to ask.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[kierthos]

Honestly, the head of the Thieves' Guild has already shown himself to be a petty jerk, so I wouldn't be surprised if he sent in all the other thieves he doesn't really care for first.

Haley is almost certainly going to be relatively uninjured until the climactic fight with Crystal.

The Loki-cleric is almost certainly going to get the Sending off and then get spooked by something and end up removing the Mark of Justice curse on Belkar.

I don't see Celia dying unless she gets in the way of Crystal, because Bozzok would either prefer to ransom her to someone else, or sell her into slavery.

The cat gets away.

[Scatman]

I can see Belkar being de-cursed and killing the cleric just because he can. Great comic, Giant.

[Starscream]

This strip is pretty awesome. It's nice to be reminded just how much butt these characters can kick when they are backed into a corner. I betcha Haley can take down pretty much everyone in the guild...except Crystal, who we know is the same level as her. That one's going to be tough.

I'm kind of guessing/hoping that Belkar is going to need to be healed to help in this fight. I doubt his death is nigh, however, because the Oracle said "within an (in comic) year", and as far as I can tell it has only been about a week (assuming they didn't travel far between the Oracle and Greysky). Yes, I know a week is "within a year", but it seems to me that the Oracle would take enough delight in the Belkster's upcoming death to say "a week" or "a month" if those time frames were more accurate. No point in ominously predicting something right around the corner.

It just occurred to me, why did Haley automatically assume that Belker's curse had been activated by him killing one of the Oracle's helpers? She had no way of knowing about the Lickmyorangeballshalfling trick. You'd think she would assume either that the cause was that Roy's body had gotten too far away at some point, or that the Oracle had used his powers to determine the code word. Certainly my first guess wouldn't be "The Oracle put a settlement right outside his door to avenge his own imminent murder".

[Flashlight]

Haley is awesome.

[nerdnumber1]

And having archers covering the melee one is totally out of thieves mentality, I suppose.
I'm the only one to notice that they are in a fully lighted underground, in a place that is supposedly secret and held by a blind guy? Should not be at least partially dark, allowing thieves to crawl in?
No, thieves charge frontally, one by one, on a ranged defender.

Pete would have lights in case of company/from when he could see (he wouldn't tear down torch mountings and his guests would light them.) The place was probably made before his blindness to offer a single, obvious entry that was advantageous to the defender (chokepoint on stairs :smallamused:)

[Mc. Lovin']

Ai-yaaah! That was awesome, I thkn the next few comics are going to be pretty amazing.

A few questions though, couldn't celia just throw a few lightning bolts at the door from the back of the room? Seems to make a lot of sense to me. I think that this chapter is going to see the end of Belkar. He's gonna get released by Redshirtcleric, and take down a hell of a lot of bad guys *just* as roy gets raised.

[Diamondeye]

When you've only got one way into a place, your options for a sneaky attack are limited. It isn't like the thieves have Bangalore Torpedos or breeching charges.

[kierthos]

When you've only got one way into a place, your options for a sneaky attack are limited. It isn't like the thieves have Bangalore Torpedos or breeching charges.
Quiet, you fool! Don't give the thieves any ideas! :smallsmile:

[Saint Nil]

That was awesome:smallbiggrin: Proving that evil will get whats coming to it

[RebelRogue]

It just occurred to me, why did Haley automatically assume that Belker's curse had been activated by him killing one of the Oracle's helpers? She had no way of knowing about the Lickmyorangeballshalfling trick. You'd think she would assume either that the cause was that Roy's body had gotten too far away at some point, or that the Oracle had used his powers to determine the code word. Certainly my first guess wouldn't be "The Oracle put a settlement right outside his door to avenge his own imminent murder".
Because the only possible time span in which Belkar may have triggered the mark is time spent in Sunken Valley. Haley has no recollection of what's located in the valley or not. Why is a settlement out of the question?

[Phishfood]

I'm kind of guessing/hoping that Belkar is going to need to be healed to help in this fight. I doubt his death is nigh, however, because the Oracle said "within an (in comic) year", and as far as I can tell it has only been about a week ......
Certainly my first guess wouldn't be "The Oracle put a settlement right outside his door to avenge his own imminent murder".

1) The oracle made the prediction the first time OOTS went to the oracle, he just repeated it this time. Panel 7 of http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html

2) I was rather confused by Haley's guess. We haven't really seen much in the way of helpers and also she doesn't remember any questions being asked. No questions + MoJ = dead oracle. Of course, knowing the oracle was killed does make things easier.

[Mc. Lovin']

Wait. Sneak attack? He's standing there looking at her. He's standing there talking to her. Is it a sneak attack because she suddenly attacks in the middle of a conversation. Which interrupted a fight.

Granted the fight could be said to start with him speaking first, then Haley, then his turn again, then Haley uses a sneak attack. I thought speaking was a free action though.

Must remember that's how the rules work :)

I assume they had their setup dialogue, then rolled initiative. Hayley won, he was flat footed, visa-vie, sneak attack! :smallbiggrin:

euch, I just realised ... V left durkon, who is going to get the message. They wont be able to get to them without the help of V =/

[Mercenary Pen]

So long as Haley doesn't just stay at the foot of the stairs, I suspect she'll be fine against most of the thieves guild... Based on the paucity of high level PC-classed characters in Azure City, I'd surmise that the majority of the thieves guild are Rogues of 6th level or lower... Leaving only Crystal (who we know is at Haley's level) and probably Bozzak and couple of his Lieutenants to pose a real threat... And we'll probably discover that Mr. Scruffy has been given a couple of levels of Monk on the quiet:smallwink:

[pjackson]

A few questions though, couldn't celia just throw a few lightning bolts at the door from the back of the room?

Sure, but the key word is *few*.
If a bunch of low level thieves line up for her it is a good tactic.

[Mc. Lovin']

Well there's only one way to come down the stairs :smallwink:

If Celia cannot be revived, what happens? Would she be able to get back with a plane shift spell? (Like those guys who attacked Roy in the afterlife)

[factotum]

Strange how Sending didn't seem to have a 10-minute casting time when Nale was using it to send his message back in strip #337... :smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

True Resurrection works on outsiders. However, its very high level and very expensive.

[RMS Oceanic]

Strange how Sending didn't seem to have a 10-minute casting time when Nale was using it to send his message back in strip #337... :smallbiggrin:

They were scrolls. Scrolls require just a standard action to use.

[Slayn82]

So long as Haley doesn't just stay at the foot of the stairs, I suspect she'll be fine against most of the thieves guild... Based on the paucity of high level PC-classed characters in Azure City, I'd surmise that the majority of the thieves guild are Rogues of 6th level or lower... Leaving only Crystal (who we know is at Haley's level) and probably Bozzak and couple of his Lieutenants to pose a real threat... And we'll probably discover that Mr. Scruffy has been given a couple of levels of Monk on the quiet:smallwink:

Well, we can assume he is currently Belkar animal companiom, so Scruffy does gain some extra atributes, hit dices and damage. I bet it will even pawn some butts.

[Koshiro]

Really the only people Belkar's killed in the "recent past"
By "recent past" I was referring to "the run of the comic strip." Yeah, should have made that clear, considering that even the characters in the comic do it.


I don't think so, she seems to have a plan, and a fairly pragmatic one at that. Belkar, being Belkar, could be a dangerous variable. Sure, he probably would happily kill the thieves. Afterwards? Chaotic evil, unpredictable Belkar in evil city with no MoJ or Roy to control him?
Oh, come on. By this reasoning, she wouldn't have even brought him along.

I fear this strip is another indication of Belkar's ongoing transformation from "anarchist black comedy source" to "butt of obnoxious moral highhorsery". I don't particularly like this development.

[Mauve Shirt]

Good strip. Hopefully they finally make contact.

[kierthos]

Oh, come on. By this reasoning, she wouldn't have even brought him along.
Ah, but until the Loki-cleric told her it was a curse, she thought he had some sort of disease. She brought him along because she thought he was still operating under the MoJ. And point of fact, Belkar didn't remember activating the curse either, so he still acted like it could still be triggered. (Actually, he's been doing little but vomit, but that's not the point.)

[DigoDragon]

First I thought "Well doesn't Celia have the ability to shoot lightning?"
Then I thought "But these are rogues, they all have the Evasion feat."
And then finally I thought "Ah, but probability states that in twenty bolts someone is going to roll a 1 on their Reflex Save and get toasted."


So in conclusion I'm just really bored here at my job if I'm thinking that in 100 rounds Celia should be able to toast 5 rogues. :smallbiggrin:

[luxgladius]

I'm a little fuzzy on Celia's abilities. Can she not simply Planeshift out if the fighting gets bad? For that matter, couldn't she have gamed the system by Planeshifting out, Planeshifting to Durkon's location to deliver a message, and then Planeshifting back? Even at 1 Planeshift/day, that would be a lot faster than what's been happening.

[RMS Oceanic]

I don't believe Sylphs have planeshifting powers, and that she was only able to reach Haley because of the magic item she specifically had created.

[derfenrirwolv]

Mechanically, Haley should be almost useless against a rogue of 4th level or above. Uncanny dodge allows you to keep your dex bonus, and thus avoid being sneak attacked. I think the only ways around that are immobilization (hold person spells, grappling etc) and using feint.

[nowiwantmydmg]

Awesome strip, this should prove interesting. 99 more to go...

[ralphmerridew]

I don't believe Sylphs have planeshifting powers, and that she was only able to reach Haley because of the magic item she specifically had created.

She needed to be summoned to get through the Cloister spell.

[neoseph7]

Here's to hoping that Old Blind Pete Triple Crosses the Guild and is both cool with Haley and Alive when the dust settles.

[RMS Oceanic]

She needed to be summoned to get through the Cloister spell.

How does that prove she can planeshift? The pendant was probably some sort of Conjuration [Calling] effect specifically attuned to her.


Mechanically, Haley should be almost useless against a rogue of 4th level or above. Uncanny dodge allows you to keep your dex bonus, and thus avoid being sneak attacked. I think the only ways around that are immobilization (hold person spells, grappling etc) and using feint.

That's a good point. Either Toby has not reached above fourth level in his career, or Haley just used a feint.

[Fiery Diamond]

Mechanically, Haley should be almost useless against a rogue of 4th level or above. Uncanny dodge allows you to keep your dex bonus, and thus avoid being sneak attacked. I think the only ways around that are immobilization (hold person spells, grappling etc) and using feint.

Not exactly. If you are a rogue four levels higher than a rogue with uncanny dodge, the anti-sneak attack portion is negated.

Awesome comic, btw. I really, really, really hope Celia doesn't die. Y'know, i, for one, would be perfectly happy if Celia replaced Belkar in the Order. Belkar started out funny, but as the strip got a more serious tone and he started massacring innocents in our view, he stopped being funny.

-Fiery Diamnond

[appending_doom]

Can she not simply Planeshift out if the fighting gets bad?

IIRC, Outsider teleport and planeshift powers tend to only affect them and some amount of gear. It's unlikely she could take everyone important with her.

[Lizard Lord]

Haley might hate most of her ex-guildmates, but what about Hank the Halfling?

OotPC spoiler: He was the one that told her to flee the city because he didn't want to see Bozzok have her killed.

[Blanth]

I believe the last three panels are the best example of initiative that I've seen in a while.

[Dziadek]

Now the only fumble that could happen is that, that Celia's drawing of Durkon isn't good enough to make the Sending spell work. Though unlikely, considering how much time we were forced to wait for this moment.

[MasterDinadan]

Now the only fumble that could happen is that, that Celia's drawing of Durkon isn't good enough to make the Sending spell work. Though unlikely, considering how much time we were forced to wait for this moment.

Moreover, I worry that nameless Cleric will tell her it was a success regardless (does Haley have any way of knowing that it worked? Wouldn't she need Spellcraft for that or something?) and that Haley will end up paying him triple for a spell that didn't even work...

[SteveMB]

And what would she have done with him afterwards? She knows she can't control him. Plus, she already refused to have him de-cursed in front of him, so if he is de-cursed now, he may well turn on her.

Yep -- even if he didn't turn on her because he's POd about the initial refusal, he'd become even more uncontrollable in the future because relenting would be seen as a sign of weakness.

[Scarlet Knight]

When you've only got one way into a place, your options for a sneaky attack are limited. It isn't like the thieves have Bangalore Torpedos or breeching charges.

"Well,...we have these "Uruk-hai" suicide bombers...!"

[ericgrau]

They were scrolls. Scrolls require just a standard action to use.

Or the casting time of the spell, whichever is greater. Seems like a screwup more likely.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

It's a set of stairs inside a house, it's not like he can order a full cavalry charge.

Cavalry charge? No these are rogues. But he should be order the Flying Walendas. More on this here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5158733#post5158733).

[Ashtar]

This is the text from the SRD which specifies a standard action for scrolls.



Spell Completion
This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can’t already cast the spell, there’s a chance he’ll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.

[hamishspence]

Spell completion item: contains partially cast spell, all thats needed is a few gestures. See PHB for spell completion items which are, typically, scrolls.

[AKA_Bait]

Haley might hate most of her ex-guildmates, but what about Hank the Halfling.

OotPC spoiler: He was the one that told her to flee the city because he didn't want to see Bozzok have her killed.

I was wondering about that too. Personally, I think

That Haley will probably offer Hank the opportunity to flee, or at least try not to kill him if it comes down to it. Depending on how this goes, Hank could end up in charge of the Thieves Guild at the end of the day.


Or the casting time of the spell, whichever is greater. Seems like a screwup more likely.

Even if it's not the rules, which I'm inclined to think it is, I suspect it was probably more of a case of funny trumps rules. The joke was all about how few words you get with the spell. That wouldn't really work if it was ten minutes bettween bits of dialogue.

[chiasaur11]

Ah, taking justified revenge on all the major jerks from your years at home.

Haley seems to be lucky in that regard.

[Blackeagle]

I don't think the cleric of Loki can cure Belkar. In 602, after explaining Belkar's problem was the Mark of Justice, the cleric said, "Anyway I don't have that spell prepared today, so --". Belkar is not getting cured today no matter what.

[hamishspence]

Er, the phrase was "Anyway, I do have that spell prepared today, so.."

[B.I.T.T.]

Go Haley!

Good comic.

[Lamech]

Isn't Celia summoned? So doesn't that preclude the whole dying thing?

[hamishspence]

Homebrew weirdness. Summonables don't usually stick around for days.

[RMS Oceanic]

Something just struck me as weird, although it's just me: the way Haley nonchalantly refers to George as a wife-beater. I'm lucky enough to be raised in a family without anything like that in it, although we tend to view people who do that with contempt at best, loathing at worst. To me, it's a really horrible thing to do, so Haley calling someone who does it merely an ******* doesn't do my feelings on the issue justice.

Of course, Haley is about to dispense "justice" on George, so it's no real biggie. :smallsmile:


Isn't Celia summoned? So doesn't that preclude the whole dying thing?

The magic effect is probably a Conjuration [Calling] effect which, as far as I know, generally doesn't have a time limit.

[Doug Lampert]

Oh, come on. By this reasoning, she wouldn't have even brought him along.


Ah, but until the Loki-cleric told her it was a curse, she thought he had some sort of disease. She brought him along because she thought he was still operating under the MoJ. And point of fact, Belkar didn't remember activating the curse either, so he still acted like it could still be triggered. (Actually, he's been doing little but vomit, but that's not the point.)

The last time she knew it was a curse she was PLANNING (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0570.html) to abandon Belkar and not bring him along. Then the memory charm hit.

So yep, she shouldn't have brought him along if she thinks that way. And we KNOW that she wouldn't have brought him along had she known it was the mark of justice. Koshiro has successfully pointed out how consistent Haley's actions are.

[JT]

Pete would have lights in case of company/from when he could see (he wouldn't tear down torch mountings and his guests would light them.) The place was probably made before his blindness to offer a single, obvious entry that was advantageous to the defender (chokepoint on stairs :smallamused:)

Besides... everyone knows that Thieves go skulking around dimly lit areas looking for things of value. No self-respecting Thief would check a brightly lit area to find something that was being hidden! :smalltongue:

[Zherog]

Not exactly. If you are a rogue four levels higher than a rogue with uncanny dodge, the anti-sneak attack portion is negated.

That is true for improved uncanny dodge, which protects against flanking. But even a level 20 rogue cannot bypass a 4th level rogue's uncanny dodge (other than the methods mentioned -- immobilizing, feinting (which can't be done with a ranged weapon, barring some prestige class abilities), and a few others).

This is quite likely another case of funny trumping rules, assuming the target had at least 4 rogue levels. It would be just as easy to say, though, that the dude didn't have 4 rogue levels.

[Somber Requiem]

If Celia is killed then she is exiled to her plane of origin and can not return to the prime material for a set amount of time... really really long time.

[Calmness]

Man, the way Belkar is being treated i'll be surprised if he even wants to help now.

[hamishspence]

There is a lot of confusing info on that in various D&D sources.

Standard rule is summoned creatures are just fine on their own plane, can come back any time.

Called creatures may get barred for a set time (100 years and a day?) or demoted (demons get demoted sometimes) Or, might die forever.

True resurrection does work on slain extraplanar outsiders "sifts through plane and reconstitutes it"

[AKA_Bait]

I don't think the cleric of Loki can cure Belkar. In 602, after explaining Belkar's problem was the Mark of Justice, the cleric said, "Anyway I don't have that spell prepared today, so --". Belkar is not getting cured today no matter what.

You know, I made that exact same reading mistake. Part of me now wonders if there was originally a typo and the Giant quickly fixed it. Mind telling me when you read the 602?


Isn't Celia summoned? So doesn't that preclude the whole dying thing?


If Celia is killed then she is exiled to her plane of origin and can not return to the prime material for a set amount of time... really really long time.

It's more likley she was Plane Shifted or as mentioned subject to a conjuration calling effect (like Gate) which puts her physically on the material plane where she can really die. Given that we don't know the actual effect in place on Celia (or that brought her to the material plane) we can probably just go ahead and assume she knows what she's talking about.

[hamishspence]

If we go back to description of Cloister, it says he "built a specific exception for summoning spells" into it. Plane shift is blocked though.

Since Gate works like Plane-shift, I would suspect gating in from another plane wouldn't work.

Not so sure about Calling effects.

[Yoyoyo]

Man, the way Belkar is being treated i'll be surprised if he even wants to help now.

Nah, I doubt he could resist a little mindless mayhem if he gets cured, which I think he will. And I can see Belkar "checking" to make sure the MoJ is gone by killing the nameless cleric.

If Haley survives this, she and Belkar will have some issues to resolve. Wouldn't it be like the Giant to get the whole party back together just in time for it to splinter apart.

[V Junior]

I forgot that outsiders can't be raised. Let's hope Celia's smart enough to stay out of trouble...

Also, WIN. Greysky City isn't really a very nice place, but when the BEST ARCHER for AGES AROUND goes up against the ENITRE Thieve's Guild, you have a battle that the bards will sing about for years.

Maybe Elan will write it.

[Koshiro]

The last time she knew it was a curse she was PLANNING (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0570.html) to abandon Belkar and not bring him along.
No, last time she actually knew who Belkar had killed she was planning to do that.
But she doesn't know now.

And by "bring along" I naturally meant... well basically everything. Geeze, if they really loath this evil monster so much and do not want his help in a fight either, why bother with him at all? The character, or more precisely, his role in the strip, has become an annoyance anyway.

[the_tick_rules]

Haha, talk to him to distract him to get the initative, brilliant. I forgot the outsider ressurrection clause, this adds a whole new spice to the fight. You know technically writing love to elan instead of writing give my love to elan one could interpet that as she told durkon to love elan himself.

[Jammeez]

Just posting for Giant's sake. Enjoyment of another's creation should never go quietly unexpressed.

Feel the love, Rich! :smallwink:

[Georlik]

Great. Thank you for this strip. "Ressurection(s)" made me burst with laughter.

[Shatteredtower]

Before I respond to other comments, I must state that my reservations with regard to strip #602 are withdrawn for the moment. Even if Haley can't keep her old associates away from the cleric long enough for him to cast his spell, there's at least a meaningful effort to accomplish something productive, rather than suddenly throw up roadblocks which leave the party helpless to do anything in response.

On the other hand, that cleric better not be interupted in his spellcasting efforts by something as trivial as having Belkar vomit over him, unless it's immediately followed by having him do something else that improves the party's current status. I don't see it happening, but...

...raising Roy would be a good one. Having that only come out at Haley's most desperate hour, with the fighter announcing his presence in a suitably dramatic rescue, would be a nice touch -- though I'd rather see her get everyone out of this mess all on her own.

And now, to other comments, each doubtlessly addressed a dozen times as I wrote this:


And having archers covering the melee one is totally out of thieves mentality, I suppose.

If it's a single file entry, Toby would have been providing Haley with a +4 cover bonus to AC. If they're too far back, they probably won't have line of sight to anyone standing in the basement, and if they're too far ahead, they and the person they're supposed to be covering are more easily targetted by attacks that affect an area, such as cloudkill (they don't know what spells the sylph can cast), blade barrier (or the cleric, though fire-based spells are likely), or some trap (whether it's one Pete "forgot" to mention or something Hannibal Haley rigged up on short notice, not that the 3.5 rules for trapbuilding allowed for that).


I'm the only one to notice that they are in a fully lighted underground, in a place that is supposedly secret and held by a blind guy?

In this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0076.html), Durkon notes that his teammates never seem to carry a lantern, but sufficient lighting was never a problem for them while in the dungeon.


Should not be at least partially dark, allowing thieves to crawl in?

I refer you to the lines of a certain would-be assassin-and-ladies-man, pointing to a crucial, fundamental flaw (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0229.html) in a certain shadow dancer's plans. Please disregard the part about morons, as it doesn't apply.

Also, one of the funny things about rogues is the fact that they can't perform sneak attacks against targets that are standing in dimly lit conditions -- such as candlelight or a dusky cellar. While this isn't likely to work in their favour against Haley (performing sneak attacks against a higher level rogue is nearly impossible in most conditions), it's the sort of edge a bunch of rogues are going to want against a pair of mid- to high-level spellcasters.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0229.htmlNo, thieves charge frontally, one by one, on a ranged defender.[/QUOTE]

And two spellcasters. Don't forget the two spellcasters. I'm not saying their tactics are ideal, but there were sound reasons for sending a lone scout in first.


I think the thing about outsiders not being able to be raised is a big, fat tell.

Maybe, but I think it was done mainly as a contrast to all the things Celia didn't know about humans. Neither Roy nor Haley were aware of this critical fact about the sylph, just as she didn't know they couldn't generate lightning. (And why would she know that? Considering the electricity between her and Roy, he should be flattered for encouraging such a mistake!)

Can't see Haley giving away a friend's body, though, especially when the friend happens to be dating her leader. Abandoning it in a life-or-death situation, sure, but not using it as a bargaining chip.


It just occurred to me, why did Haley automatically assume that Belker's curse had been activated by him killing one of the Oracle's helpers?

Others have pointed out that she knew it had to have happened in the Oracle's valley, since he wasn't cursed going in. His killing of the gnome merchant made it natural to assume (correctly)00 he might have killed someone who didn't have it coming while he was there.




Neither seems as likely as the possibility that Belkar stabbed someone who didn't have it coming. The idea that the Oracle might have triggered the code word is unlikely to have occured to her because she doesn't know anything about the Oracle, and has every reason to assume he's trustworthy -- especially when compared to Belkar.

True, her decision would have been the same if Belkar had willingly triggered the curse while trying to defend her from a horde of hobgoblins Redcloak had sent to the valley on some sort of business. The reasoning behind it would still be just as sound in such a case, though unfortunate. However, note that when she did know what happened, she was just going to abandon him. Now that she knows only that the mark was triggered, but not why, she's maintaining some level of responsibility for his well-being -- at least until Roy returns to decide the halfling's fate.

[QUOTE=factotum;5158156]Strange how Sending didn't seem to have a 10-minute casting time when Nale was using it to send his message back in strip #337... :smallbiggrin:

Well, while the Giant might have bent the rules for humour value, we can't be sure it didn't take that long between castings. We really don't know how long passes between each panel. Granted, it seems unlikely Roy would have just stood around waiting like that for close to two hours...

As for trigger time for a scroll, it's related to casting time. The same rules that state a scroll is triggered by a standard action also state that this is subject to the spell's casting time. Yes, there are multiple ways to interpret this rule, but all of them make more sense than the one that states that using a scroll to cast an arcane spell while wearing armor carries a risk of spell failure if the spell has a somatic component (even though the scroll's user doesn't need its material component), or that a scroll can carry a spell triggered without the use or either verbal or somatic components.


I fear this strip is another indication of Belkar's ongoing transformation from "anarchist black comedy source" to "butt of obnoxious moral highhorsery". I don't particularly like this development.

I'm not fond of it either. He's always been trouble, but it's worked in the party's favour at critical times. Then again, without him, things probably would never have come to a head with Miko. (The inn that became the last straw between her and Roy would still be standing, for one thing.) A falling out was looking rather inevitable, and it's difficult to see any other way it could be stalled for much longer. Still, the current situation risks becoming tedious in very short order. Hopefully, some other means can be found for holding things together again, at least for a little while longer, while still allowing Belkar to be useful at least some of the time.

[Mr. Scaly]

I call foul on Haley. She said she doubted they could survive an attack by so many mid to high level rogues then dices one no problem and calls for more. Understandable since it's a sneak attack and she won initiative, but I'm hoping for a 'fight' not a massacre.

[SoC175]

Btw, anyone think Celia's reference to her not being able to be raised is a bad sign?
Actually she is wrong about it.

Outsider can't be raised with raise dead, that is correct.However that's only because that is the least powerfull spell to bring back the dead. The most powerfull variant (True Ressurection) can also raise outsiders.

If TS is too highlevel to obtain there is also a lower level spell called Raise Outsider which works just like Raise Dead only that it raises outsiders

Not exactly. If you are a rogue four levels higher than a rogue with uncanny dodge, the anti-sneak attack portion is negated.
No, it's not.

Being a rogue four levels higher negates the "can't be flanked part" and thus you can once again get sneak attacks for flanking.

The "doesn't lose Dex mod to AC part" is never negated.

Isn't Celia summoned? So doesn't that preclude the whole dying thing?
More likely called. Summoned she would have vanished days ago, but called she stays forever (until she leaves or is called to somewhere else)

[hamishspence]

There is nothing in description of "spell completion items" in DMG that says it's subject to normal casting time. It stresses, repeatedly, spell is "mostly finished" Nor have I found anything in Rules Compendium about it.

Is this an errata?

[ChowGuy]

I call foul on Haley. She said she doubted they could survive an attack by so many mid to high level rogues then dices one no problem and calls for more. Understandable since it's a sneak attack and she won initiative, but I'm hoping for a 'fight' not a massacre.
Taking out one rogue is not the same as taking out all of them, which is what she needs to do to survive the fight. High level or not, she can't hope to take them all on at once any more then Therkla could before someone gets in "a round or two while [her] attention is elsewhere. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0592.html)" Or as I recall someone once put it "In my experience, it's the second man over the wall who gets the glory. The first man just gets to be dead."

[hamishspence]

Player's handbook "Is the equivalent of casting a spell" also "Is a standard action unless specified in the item description"

Player's handbook glossary "Is a standard action". DMG "Is a standard action"

[nybbler]

For those complaining about the thieves guild's bad tactics: Rules of drama say this can't be a real challenge until she faces her personal rival Crystal.

[nleseul]

Nah, I doubt he could resist a little mindless mayhem if he gets cured, which I think he will. And I can see Belkar "checking" to make sure the MoJ is gone by killing the nameless cleric.

If Belkar gets cured in this scene—which I expect he will—it will probably be due to the cleric panicking after the rogues overwhelm Haley and Celia and break down the saferoom door. In all likelihood, the rogues will regard Belkar as an ally of Haley and the cleric, and Belkar's self-preservation instincts should be sufficient for him to leave the cleric alive for healing.

Furthermore, think about it this way. If Belkar tries to side with the rogues, he gets to kill one cleric. If he sides with the cleric, he gets to kill several dozen rogues.

[maxon]

Oh crap .... Go Haley! (on your own) Winces.

I'm going to shut my eyes now and wait till it's over.

[hamishspence]

Can anyone tell me where we're getting "same casting time as spell" from?

[Animefunkmaster]

So... Haley is probably not an outsider.

[Tundar]

Go Haley!

And Celia! It's time for some electrifications.

[Linkavitch]

I think the cleric is going to cure Belkar´s condition. That´s the better chance of himself (and Celia, and Haley) surviving this encounter.

Without Haley telling him to, or giving permission? Hmm, good possibility, as the cleric did seem to want to stick around as long as possible, and having Belkar alive might (repeat might) heighten that chance. Or, Belkar might kill him, as soon as possible, like an alcohol addict goes to the bar right after work to get drunk. . .

Oh, yeah. HAHAHAHA! That comic made me laugh. Thanks, Giant!

[hamishspence]

yes, wasn't Dungeon of Dorukan the last time we saw her electrocute something?

Nale: "Totally worth it"

[Mr. Scaly]

Taking out one rogue is not the same as taking out all of them, which is what she needs to do to survive the fight. High level or not, she can't hope to take them all on at once any more then Therkla could before someone gets in "a round or two while [her] attention is elsewhere. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0592.html)" Or as I recall someone once put it "In my experience, it's the second man over the wall who gets the glory. The first man just gets to be dead."

Well yeah...that's why I said the first shot was understandable. I'm worried that it will turn into a classic heroic massacre though.

[Superglucose]

Kick their butts, haley.

[Laurentio II]

yes, wasn't Dungeon of Dorukan the last time we saw her electrocute something?

Nale: "Totally worth it"
No, it was the week before (for them), when he blasted a bunch of golems AND a door. Two separate spells.
EDIT: and the bridge. Three.

[RosesOnConcrete]

Oh man, I freaking love Haley right now. Atta girl. And yeah, Celia, mentioning that RD wouldn't work on you basically guarantees that you'll be needing it soon. *cringe*

[Ikialev]

...she can't be raised? 0o

[hamishspence]

Ah, good point, maybe it should have been "Someone" Golems aren't exactly Someone, more Something.

[Resist77]

:haley: "you and I need to find a way to stall a few dozen mid-to-high level rogues for 100 rounds"

ummm.....
:belkar: ?

[argil7]

Wow that was awsome, simplly awsome, there are no other ways of conveing the awsomenis of this come but with awsome!

[joela]

"That's George at the top of the stairs. He beats his wife. Full attack!"

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

[Ragn Charran]

Couple of random thoughts...

1. A lot of people are saying Belkar won't be able to help if cured because he's locked in the room. Note that we never see the door close - Haley and Celia walk out, then it's out of frame.

2. Celia's useless in this fight. She can blast lightning, but what good is that against a group of targets with Evasion? Anyone it threatens is no threat to Haley anyways.

EDIT - I'm forgetting something - members don't have to be rogues (nor should they be, multiple skillsets are a must in any organization), so Celia can help against any combat or caster types. My bad.

3. What's the casting time on remove curse? IF it's only a round, the cleric would be absolutely stupid not to do it before the sending. Having Belkar in the mix - even if he can't get out of the room - is virtually guaranteed to pay back that round. Well, at least in the perspective of someone who doesn't know Belkar's a psychopathic killer.

[mhensley]

Casting Time: 1 standard action

[KageSama]

The trouble is, I can picture the scene between Belkar and the Cleric:

Cleric: There you go, the Mark of Justice is gone
Belkar: Are you certain?
Cleric: Absolutely. (goes to cast the sending spell)
Belkar: (Stabbity, stab, stab)
Cleric: (dies)
Belkar: What do you know, he was right. Nice job.
Belkar: (goes to kill something else)

Of course, the poor cleric has no clue to Belkar's past and is probably more afraid of the Thieves Guild than he is of Belkar.

Wrong conclusion :eek:

[R.O.A.]

I
Also, WIN. Greysky City isn't really a very nice place, but when the BEST ARCHER for AGES AROUND goes up against the ENITRE Thieve's Guild, you have a battle that the bards will sing about for years.

Maybe Elan will write it.

uh...best archer? What gave you the impression she was anything more then average? :smallconfused:

[linkhyrule5]

A) See the comment about fighting Crystal
B) Cause she just killed someone in about two seconds.

[hamishspence]

Origin:
Haley: "Do you have any ranks in Sense Motive?"
Roy: "No."
Haley: "I am the world finest archer."

Which suggests that she exaggerates her archery skill. Though as a high level archer specialist, she's bound to be better than most.

[The_Firenail]

It was a little earlier than I expected, I thought that he'd release it tommorow or Saturday at the latest, but I see that his (horrible) sence of humor hasn't changed.

[DougTheHead]

I'm also thinking that Belkar's going to convince the cleric to remove the Mark of Justice for free, although I think he will choose to kill 20+ rogues with healing help from the cleric, rather than just kill the cleric (although he may do that afterwards anyway:smallbiggrin:)

Once he does, Haley will be mad with him... until he reminds her how much money they just saved.

[Tyrmatt]

uh...best archer? What gave you the impression she was anything more then average? :smallconfused:

Mostly because she's a high level archer rogue compared to the general mooks that inhabit thieves guilds in every campaign I've come across. The power of the guild always rests in the assassins and occassionally the guildmaster.

An interesting point here I don't think anyone has mentioned. Pete was "Eagle Eyed" Pete back in the day. A trait for an archer that would be extremely valuable. And he's about to have his eyes restored. So logically a smart choice would be to help Haley murder the guild in order to prevent Bozzok ever deciding to reblind him just for kicks. Not too sure of Haley's backstory in terms of who trained her but I think it would be a fair bet that Pete had a hand in her training.

[Manoftyr]

Or he just dies in the battle against the guild.

This is a likely outcome, in my opinion. Haley gets beaten but not killed, Celia gets away. The guild breaks in the room, the cleric heals Belkar to have a weapon ready, but Belkar kills him and wreaks havoc among the thieves, but fails ultimately and dies before Celia performs a deus ex machina or something.

Simon

That's more or less what I see happening as well.

[David Argall]

when the BEST ARCHER for AGES AROUND

Haley is a decent archer for her level. Against mooks, she can have a lot of fun. But she is only +9/+4 to hit. Give her 18 DX just to be generous and she is still only +13/+8. She is only a match for the average fighter of her level. An arcane archer is +20/+15/+10 at 13th. & we can figure there are a few around of higher level.



Outsider can't be raised with raise dead, that is correct.However that's only because that is the least powerfull spell to bring back the dead. The most powerfull variant (True Ressurection) can also raise outsiders.

If TS is too highlevel to obtain there is also a lower level spell called Raise Outsider which works just like Raise Dead only that it raises outsiders
Casters are somewhat limited to core spells in OOTS. That's not a hard and fast rule [what is?], but Celia would be rash to assume any caster has access to it. And as noted 17th level casters are rare at best, so Celia had better figure that if she dies here, that's it for her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lamech
Isn't Celia summoned? So doesn't that preclude the whole dying thing?


More likely called. Summoned she would have vanished days ago, but called she stays forever (until she leaves or is called to somewhere else)
All the strip references seems to say summoned. However, this seems to be a case where plot needs overcome the rules, so any statement had better include at least one "probably" in it.


You'd think she would assume either that the cause was that Roy's body had gotten too far away at some point, or that the Oracle had used his powers to determine the code word.
There would be enough doubt to get Belkar off in a criminal case, but we have seen Belkar in action. What are the odds that he would ever get a mile away from the body? Or that Roy would say the magic word? That he somehow managed to kill somebody in something that somehow qualified as a town seems really likely in comparison. [/quote]
Now curing him still seems like the best short term idea. Haley is not going to be able to survive this fight on her own. Belkar does give her a faint hope of being able to fight her way out.
However, it is a faint hope. With or without Belkar, she can hold the enemy off for a time, but eventually sheer numbers will take her out. Her apparent idea is to die and be raised by Durkon. And Belkar is not important for that.

I still like the idea of Pete having put in an escape hatch, and opening that for them before he heads off to the temple.



I'm kind of guessing/hoping that Belkar is going to need to be healed to help in this fight. I doubt his death is nigh, however, because the Oracle said "within an (in comic) year",
He said "within the year", and gives us the aside this is in comic time. This seems to mean Belkar had only about 4 months left, but that won't end until at least January our time.


and as far as I can tell it has only been about a week (assuming they didn't travel far between the Oracle and Greysky).
573 says it was about a week from Oracle to Greysky. So we have a total of 2-3 weeks. Still not a huge portion of 4 months, and so the odds do favor Belkar surviving this situation, but...



Wait. Sneak attack? He's standing there looking at her. He's standing there talking to her. Is it a sneak attack because she suddenly attacks in the middle of a conversation. Which interrupted a fight.
It's a bit of a DM call here. In theory, any time you are not expecting the attack, the rogue can get sneak attack damage. However, it is assumed that in any battle situation you are expecting attack by the rogue, who thus gets no extra dice of damage. Now the most common rule here would be that Haley's victim had seen her, knows who she is and her hostile nature, and thus Haley would not get a surprise round, and since they talk, initiative had been rolled earlier and both had taken actions, negating any sneak damage.
However, it is not entirely unreasonable to rule her foe was not prepared for the immediate attack and thus was vulnerable to losing initiative, and thus sneak damage. If you are talking peacefully to somebody and he suddenly draws a gun and shoots you, we are comfortable with the idea this is attack with surprise. We just know that a lot of the time, we would have spotted the gun or known the guy was dangerous and would have already been ready to act.



No matter, Haley has Many Shot
Many Shot is a lousy feat for the circumstances. Playing with those hobgoblins, it was useful in letting her run around. Here, she must pretty much just stand in one place, making the feat just a negative to her chance to hit.

[arch]

Nice touch, keeping the Sending message to 25 words exactly.

Let's just hope the cleric doesn't expand ASAP into its four words. Poor Elan! :smalleek:

[Kilbia]

2. Celia's useless in this fight. She can blast lightning, but what good is that against a group of targets with Evasion? Anyone it threatens is no threat to Haley anyways.


I disagree. Each NPC in the fight is another chance for a natural 20. Remember O-Chul's speech to Haley before the big battle in Azure City.

ETA: Normal Evasion only means that you take no damage if you save. It's still full damage if you fail the Reflex save. As my poor Cybele found out after she rolled a 2. :(

[Ragn Charran]

I disagree. Each NPC in the fight is another chance for a natural 20. Remember O-Chul's speech to Haley before the big battle in Azure City.

ETA: Normal Evasion only means that you take no damage if you save. It's still full damage if you fail the Reflex save. As my poor Cybele found out after she rolled a 2. :(

Well, we're talking a few dozen, not thousands like the big war, so I didn't bring the natural 20 on attacks and natural 1 on saves into it.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Can't Celia just "unsummon" herself out of trouble? Hinjo sent Argent back when he was poisoned, but can resummon Argent the next day. :smallconfused:

That's two things I've been confused about in today's action packed strip...

The other thing is why did they draw a picture of Durkon BEFORE telling the Priest of Loki to cast Sending...

[LuisDantas]

Yeah, Vibe. The Marvel's Victor rip-off. Or the one Victor ripped off. Or... but really, who cares?

Which Victor would be that? Surely not Victor Mancha from the Runaways? They are about twenty years apart in creation and even further away conceptually, after all.

And I liked Vibe, at least in his final story. JLDetroit has a far worse rep than it deserves, more so when contrasted with the JL(I) that was its immediate successor.

[LuisDantas]

I'm hoping Durkon didn't take more ranks in knowledge religion, as he might ignore a cleric of Loki giving that spell. :P

Hey, cool Char Aznable avatar :)

Durkon certainly knows about Loki's enmity to Thor. It's probably in Northern Clerical Studies 101, if not common knowledge among Northen laity.

But he is not about to turn his back to any reasonable clue of Haley's whereabouts, either.

[LuisDantas]

That's two things I've been confused about in today's action packed strip...

The other thing is why did they draw a picture of Durkon BEFORE telling the Priest of Loki to cast Sending...

Check #602 again. The last panel where we see Celia is the one where she gets the chalk to begin to draw that picture. She drew it off-panel at the trailing end of #602 and early panels of #603.

[horngeek]

I think that the party will 'borrow' a caster to teleport there. Bonus points if V catches the message somehow (plot) and comes in and destroys the entire Theive's Guild.

[nleseul]

Durkon certainly knows about Loki's enmity to Thor. It's probably in Northern Clerical Studies 101, if not common knowledge among Northen laity.

Does he? Does he really (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0052.html)?

[Charmy]

Haley is a decent archer for her level. Against mooks, she can have a lot of fun. But she is only +9/+4 to hit. Give her 18 DX just to be generous and she is still only +13/+8. She is only a match for the average fighter of her level. An arcane archer is +20/+15/+10 at 13th. & we can figure there are a few around of higher level.


Actually if you'll check the Class and Level Geekery thread, there is pretty compelling evidence that Haley's dex is actually closer to 20+ (Giant pretty much admitted that in one post by saying that even in an anti-magic field she probably has a +5 dex bonus). That means a +14/+9 assuming 13th level and barring any enchanted bracers/bow/arrows/etc.

I do agree that Haley isn't very well optimized for an archer.. but thankfully the OoTS world is pretty anti-munchkin in general :smallbiggrin:

[Yendor]

But he is not about to turn his back to any reasonable clue of Haley's whereabouts, either.

First thing to do would be to scry on Celia to see if the story checks out. Even if Haley and Belkar don't show up, he can still deduce that they're there.

[lordofthe_wog]

The arrow in the last panel is a lighter green then the other two. WHAT COULD IT BE?

Probably nothing and I'm being an idiot. :thog:

[Cybaster]

Haley probably has a few Ranger levels hidden in there for the Archery Combat Style...and Favored Enemy: Douchebags as a result. :smallwink:

[Alaska Fan]

Now the only fumble that could happen is that, that Celia's drawing of Durkon isn't good enough to make the Sending spell work. Though unlikely, considering how much time we were forced to wait for this moment.

Old Pete told Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0581.html) that the hidey-hole was scry/spy/detect proof. Does that just work one way, or is the Loki cleric going to be unable to reach Durkon?

[Lokasenna]

Old Pete told Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0581.html) that the hidey-hole was scry/spy/detect proof. Does that just work one way, or is the Loki cleric going to be unable to reach Durkon?

It might work with like the Cloister spell: You can't get into it through magical means from the outside to the inside, but you can scry from the inside to the outside.

[Devonix]

I'm personally glad that they kept up the decision not to cure :belkar: . Funny character or not he's evil and unpredictable. He's a murderer and not just of monsters and that gnome. Does no one remember the guards in Azure City that he bruttaly killed and then used their blood to taunt miko. He's a sick dog than needs putting down.

[NakedCelt]

I have to admit, #602 - and I didn't want to post this - left me rolling my eyes a bit and wondering "how long will this drag out?"

Now with #603, I feel newly invigorated! This comic just KICKED ASS. I *loved* Haley's quickly-made-up plan, I loved her taking charge and the thoughtful way she implemented the plan. I loved her moment of regret over knowing the people she would fight and her quick change of heart about it when it hit her about just how well she really does know these people.

But, all in all, the BEST part is that I see light at the end of the tunnel, and hope that the Order will finally be together again as a group. Perhaps sans V at the moment, but hey! If we can get Roy resurrected, and get Roy/Haley/Belkar/Celia (yeah, I'll include her at this time) back with Elan and Durkon, then I'll call it a win right now!!! :smallbiggrin:

Anyway...great job, Giant. And yeah, I'll include 602 in that compliment, since it set up 603. Which is part of the fun, right?

And yeah...I like the cleric. I hope he's not TOO temporary. If he filled in V's spot on the team for a while, I wouldn't mind it too much. Still, I would love to see V back before too long. In the real world, groups split up and change over time...but this is fiction, and the focus of the story is on this group. I'd rather it be more like the Peanuts with a largely unchanging (possibly expanding) cast of characters. And less like the Justice League, with its rotating cast of changing (and sometimes forgettable; anyone else remember Vibe besides me?) characters.

I'm puzzled why anyone is under the impression that things are going to get "back on track".

It is an iron-clad law of drama that the more you know about a character's plans, the worse things are going to go awry. This is not just a trope -- it's a consequence of the fundamental rule of good writing: Surprise the reader. If we didn't know what the Order's plans were after Roy's death, there could have been a short quest for diamonds or something and Durkon could have cast Resurrection, and Roy would be back and we'd all be duly gratified. But the Giant couldn't really have gone that way, having already established that death-reversing magic is fairly commonplace in this universe.

If you know the characters' plans, and those plans work out exactly as intended, there's no surprise, no dramatic value -- no story, in fact. On the other hand, of course, there's also no dramatic value in seeing a plan go wrong when you didn't know what the plan was in the first place.

So no, things are not going to get "back on track". They are going to go further and further off track until they reach a climax, and the whole thing will be settled in a completely unexpected fashion.

Because the Giant is a good writer.

[Kaytara]

I call foul on Haley. She said she doubted they could survive an attack by so many mid to high level rogues then dices one no problem and calls for more. Understandable since it's a sneak attack and she won initiative, but I'm hoping for a 'fight' not a massacre.

Actually, I think it works out. We know the Thieves Guild has many members, definitely over a dozen, not all of whom are high-level. If it's really the entire Thieves Guild that's attacking them, it makes sense to send in the low level mooks first. Haley doesn't mention the mooks because it's not the mooks she's worried about, since she can kill them with one hit. She worries about a DOZEN mid-to-high level characters who she knows WILL pose a threat to her.

[Devonix]

I'm also thinking that Belkar's going to convince the cleric to remove the Mark of Justice for free, although I think he will choose to kill 20+ rogues with healing help from the cleric, rather than just kill the cleric (although he may do that afterwards anyway:smallbiggrin:)

Once he does, Haley will be mad with him... until he reminds her how much money they just saved.

Except the fact that Belkar is evil and these people more than likely have a better offer for him. As such he'd side with them against Haley and she's have 20+ rogues and a high level Ranger Barbarian. to deal with.

[Grey Watcher]

Except the fact that Belkar is evil and these people more than likely have a better offer for him. As such he'd side with them against Haley and she's have 20+ rogues and a high level Ranger Barbarian. to deal with.

Not necessarily. The opportunity to ruthlessly kill a bunch of humans right now? Without Haley getting mad at him, worrying about the Mark, or any reprisals (at least none that they won't be seeing anyway)? Remember Belkar's appetite for bloodshed has been at near starvation levels for months now. I think he's going to side with whichever group can promise him the most kills, right away, the Thieves' Guild's final bid is a measly 2 (Haley herself, is already promised to Crystal). Haley can offer him a dozen? Two? I think he's sticking with the Order.

[Lokasenna]

Not necessarily. The opportunity to ruthlessly kill a bunch of humans right now? Without Haley getting mad at him, worrying about the Mark, or any reprisals (at least none that they won't be seeing anyway)? Remember Belkar's appetite for bloodshed has been at near starvation levels for months now. I think he's going to side with whichever group can promise him the most kills, right away, the Thieves' Guild's final bid is a measly 2 (Haley herself, is already promised to Crystal). Haley can offer him a dozen? Two? I think he's sticking with the Order.

Or he might think he can go after Haley and the thieves. Why pick just one side when you can kill both?

[An Enemy Spy]

I bet the Sending will go to some other dwarf who looks exactly like the one in the crappy drawing.

[Timespike]

Geez! Haley is not to be screwed with!

[The Tygre]

Finally. some action! Keep up the good work, Giant!

[Draz74]

K, aside from the concerns others have voiced about Pete's magically shielded room (and how it interacts with the outgoing Sending as well as efforts to Scry in return), and whether the message will be trusted, and why the thieves are dumb enough to approach Haley in single-file, I have two questions/comments.

First, we get another tidbit of Haley's gradually-revealed life story. Mia, her mysterious mother, was also in the Thieves' Guild.

Second, what is Roy's first comment supposed to mean? Who in particular is he thinking of (besides possibly Blind Pete) who has hurt the Order by selling out?

[Brasswatchman]

Wait. Sneak attack? He's standing there looking at her. He's standing there talking to her. Is it a sneak attack because she suddenly attacks in the middle of a conversation. Which interrupted a fight.

Granted the fight could be said to start with him speaking first, then Haley, then his turn again, then Haley uses a sneak attack. I thought speaking was a free action though.

Must remember that's how the rules work :)

If Haley won Initiative, he counts as Flat-footed until he acts.

[Brasswatchman]

That's why this particular one is threatening to break my mind..along with that apparently Haley has an unlimited amount of arrows if she can hold off all these rogues for 100 rounds. (Of course since it only seems to take two arrows to kill anyone no matter their level, I guess that's moot)

Sorry, you actually count arrows in your games? In most of the games I've played, it's gone something like this:

ME: "Okay, I have 20 gp. Can I buy 400 arrows?"

GM: "Just write down that you have arrows. Period end."

[TheNovak]

Uh, I believe a F*** YEAH is in order.

Haley? F*** YEAH!

[Brasswatchman]

2) I was rather confused by Haley's guess. We haven't really seen much in the way of helpers and also she doesn't remember any questions being asked.

Look, for everybody dealing with this, I'm just going to go ahead and say that it isn't a rational decision on her character's part. She made her Intuition check or wouldn't trust Belkar any further than she could throw him anyway or maybe she just knows Belkar. In particular, she knows that he's too careful to have tripped off his MoJ for any other reason other than the "fun way."

So relax, willya?

[Brasswatchman]

Geeze, if they really loath this evil monster so much and do not want his help in a fight either, why bother with him at all? The character, or more precisely, his role in the strip, has become an annoyance anyway.

Probably because Belkar's player is the GM's kid brother, and his parents will only let him and his friends use the garage if he can play.

... what? Too metafictional?

[Prince_Rohan]

Haley must have grown up in my neighborhood.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Can't Celia just "unsummon" herself out of trouble? Hinjo sent Argent back when he was poisoned, but can resummon Argent the next day.

Seems like Celia has an emergency exit if she really needs it, although that would leave Haley hanging...

[Warren Dew]

It is an iron-clad law of drama that the more you know about a character's plans, the worse things are going to go awry. This is not just a trope -- it's a consequence of the fundamental rule of good writing: Surprise the reader.

And here I was somehow under the misimpression that great literature was enjoyable to reread even when one already knew everything that was going to happen. I guess the things I thought were great literature were actually just bad writing.

Honestly, while I think the author of this strip does use surprise to good effect, he also does a good job of making the strip rereadable, and still funny the second time around.

[DBear]

Everyone that is worried about Haley taking on the thieves' guild seems to be forgetting the Conservation of Ninjutsu. If Bozzok had sendt Crystal in first, Haley would have cause to worry. But sending down the mooks---one at a time, yet--Haley should cut them down easily. :smallamused:

[Tim]

I predict sending fails, and they eventually find ANOTHER cleric of Loki who actually met Durkon. Well, more than just "met", but you get the drift.

[Sequinox]

... yeah, that was funny. I feel bad for that guy's wife though. And the 'we'll pay you triple' was awesome. 'at last, someone selling out works to our favor.'

And finally, I foresee Celia's death. That's hard for me, because I've always liked her, but... the whole 'lack of rez' thing tipped me off. Though I hope that I'm wrong.

[One_Wolf]

I laughed hard on this one. Great job.

I don't know whether the swearing was necessary (maybe it was), but Haley's line in the last panel slayed me.

-One Wolf

[picklepenguin]

I don't know if this has been said, but if Durkon doesn't know who Celia is, wouldn't that screw up the message somehow? Of course, I doubt he'll get the message or understand it correctly (due to the law of comic drama).

[DBear]

Oh, Durkon knows who Celia is. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0280.html)

[nosignal]

I don't know if this has been said, but if Durkon doesn't know who Celia is, wouldn't that screw up the message somehow? Of course, I doubt he'll get the message or understand it correctly (due to the law of comic drama).

Why wouldn't Durkon know who Celia is? It's not like they haven't met (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0280.html).

[Kish]

Probably because Belkar's player is the GM's kid brother, and his parents will only let him and his friends use the garage if he can play.

... what? Too metafictional?
Also incompatible with the way they act toward him.

Plus, Rich confirmed that they don't have players, so that can't be the reason.

Plus...I find the idea that the OotS' imaginary players are just like their characters distasteful. It strikes me as unimaginative. If we're speculating about players, I'd rather look at "why would Belkar's player choose to play a psychopath?" than assume Belkar's player is psychopathic and/or immature.

[Hellbore]

Hi all,

Making my debut post to say how much I enjoy this comic. It goes to show how well its written that I, who no nothing about D&D can still get so much on from this story.

Anyways, heres to the next strip. :smallbiggrin:

[fangthane]

Hmm, something I hadn't noticed about this and the last comic until I re-read this one and then skipped back some.

Celia has the same hair-out-of-place hairdo as Haley at the moment, obviously an artifact of their long enclosure together. I appreciate the attention to detail which has Rich implementing little touches like that, which (so far as my cursory search of the forum is concerned) doesn't seem to have caught much attention at all.

I guess people got more caught up in the "things are finally moving forward" aspect and missed some of the fine detail, but it's nice to see that Rich didn't.

Very nicely done.

[picklepenguin]

Ah, right. Totally forgot the trial part...my bad.

[Arcane_Secrets]

Man, the way Belkar is being treated i'll be surprised if he even wants to help now.

Don't you think that:

1) It would give Belkar a chance to kill someone.

2) His opponents were going to try and kill him anyway.

would sort of outweigh his anger at how they've treated him? I'll grant he doesn't think rationally all that often, though.

[Brasswatchman]

Also incompatible with the way they act toward him.

Plus, Rich confirmed that they don't have players, so that can't be the reason.

It was a joke, you know.


Plus...I find the idea that the OotS' imaginary players are just like their characters distasteful. It strikes me as unimaginative. If we're speculating about players, I'd rather look at "why would Belkar's player choose to play a psychopath?" than assume Belkar's player is psychopathic and/or immature.

Because he - the hypothetical player - is a jerk? :) C'mon. We all must have played with somebody like that at some point.

[Laurentio II]

Which Victor would be that? Surely not Victor Mancha from the Runaways? They are about twenty years apart in creation and even further away conceptually, after all.
My bad, I misswrote the name. Rictor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rictor).

[Zolem]

A wife beater? Full attack using rapid fire and quick reload with my MK72 Anti-tank rocket launcher on the ashole!

[Kaytara]

Hmm, something I hadn't noticed about this and the last comic until I re-read this one and then skipped back some.

Celia has the same hair-out-of-place hairdo as Haley at the moment, obviously an artifact of their long enclosure together. I appreciate the attention to detail which has Rich implementing little touches like that, which (so far as my cursory search of the forum is concerned) doesn't seem to have caught much attention at all.

I guess people got more caught up in the "things are finally moving forward" aspect and missed some of the fine detail, but it's nice to see that Rich didn't.

Very nicely done.

I thought it odd that Celia still has the hair-out-of-face braid in this comic, but I can't for the life of me figure out where it could be going if it's supposed to be important. After all, anyone who could be trying to identify Haley here has already met her in the past and probably remembers if not her hair colour, then at least that she's not a sylph.

[eilandesq]

Given that Toby--given that Haley was able to catch him flat-footed--was at most a third level rogue, I have a feeling that Bozzock must have wanted him dead for some reason. Given that Toby didn't seem particularly terrified at going down to face the (probably) 13th level rogue optimized for lethal close range archery, I'm assuming that he wasn't the brightest lantern archon in the heavenly choir, and that was what made him expendable. Bozzock might use this method to thin out his more-dimwitted low-level members, then head down himself with Crystal once the remaining ones start telling him "Bite me, orc boy" in response to the call to go to be slaughtered.

[spectralphoenix]

Bozzak probably figured he could surprise Haley and have everyone file down the stairs and set up in the basement before storming the secret rooom. Of course, he sends down the expendable people first just in case, but he probably wasn't planning on fighting down the stairs.

Wonder if Crystal has a potion of Fly or something? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html)

[Raging Gene Ray]

When I saw the title, I immediately thought it would involve Belkar recognizing Hank the Halfling Accountant as someone from his village/caravan/whatever-community-OotS-halflings-live-in and lazily throw a dagger in his eye.

But it turned out to be much better.

[Selene]

Hey, Celia really does draw both eyes the same size accidentally! Please don't kill her, Giant. Cut Roy a break for once.

[Mercenary Pen]

Personally, I reckon that Celia's going to end up destroying the staircase with lightning- forcing any thieves guild members without ranged attack to fall 6-10ft to land flat on their faces... I mean, since Pete sold them out, they have no good reason to worry about looking after his house for him, do they?

[David Argall]

Personally, I reckon that Celia's going to end up destroying the staircase with lightning-
But then how do they get out? Celia would be an easy target if they tried to fly. I suppose the cleric can Food and Water them ok, but they are doomed if they stay in the basement.

[Random221]

Hy, do you know what I am waiting for? DING!!!

C'mon, they have been fighting for about 300 strips and no levelup. It is really time now!

Ah, how mutch arrow Haley has? No big deal... I suggest they should use Belkar as a weapon. Make him think anything seriously evil and the Mark of Justice will wipe out all thieves with one 'wawe'

[TheNovak]

I don't think we've actually seen every time the group has dinged. The last time we did see it, it was Belkar...who, looking back at the post-Dungeon of Dorukan strips, was a little behind the rest of the group in XP, leading to his need for a roleplaying bonus. Ergo, Haley either dinged before him or at the same time, but we didn't actually see it happen.

Then again, OOTS seems to have some strange XP rules, so maybe not. For instance, there was poor Shelby the Dragonslayer in the bonus strips for Book 2; he managed an extremely lucky crit and thus received all the XP for the kill, even though others were present and involved in the battle. The others were displeased.

[Solmi]

I laughed for the first time in a long time at this strip.

[banjo1985]

Nice strip this one. I like Mr Unamed Cleric Man already. :smallbiggrin:

[Aenghus]

I think this is Haley's equivalent of the Scouring of the Shire. When she left she was low level, but now she's a pretty powerful adventurer. The rank and file of the thieves guild don't know this as they remember her when she was a kid and will underestimate her. Haley herself hasn't quite realised how much more powerful she is either.

As someone else said, Haley won't be threatened till she faces Crystal.

Now the action has been turned up, it's unlikely that any major slowdowns will get in the way of the action, I think. Whether the sending works or not, I see much of the party reuniting fairly soon.

[Lokasenna]

I don't think we've actually seen every time the group has dinged. The last time we did see it, it was Belkar...who, looking back at the post-Dungeon of Dorukan strips, was a little behind the rest of the group in XP, leading to his need for a roleplaying bonus. Ergo, Haley either dinged before him or at the same time, but we didn't actually see it happen.

Then again, OOTS seems to have some strange XP rules, so maybe not. For instance, there was poor Shelby the Dragonslayer in the bonus strips for Book 2; he managed an extremely lucky crit and thus received all the XP for the kill, even though others were present and involved in the battle. The others were displeased.

Since Belkar leveled up in Azure City, I would assume Haley has done so at least once in the same period, probably more. However, she has lost at least one level on screen, here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0519.html) Possibly more off screen by other wrights.

[Laurentio II]

I think this is Haley's equivalent of the Scouring of the Shire. When she left she was low level, but now she's a pretty powerful adventurer. The rank and file of the thieves guild don't know this as they remember her when she was a kid and will underestimate her. Haley herself hasn't quite realised how much more powerful she is either.
Crystal knows in details Haley's level. She is her nemesis, and levels everytime Haley does. Ding!

[pjackson]

Then again, OOTS seems to have some strange XP rules, so maybe not. For instance, there was poor Shelby the Dragonslayer in the bonus strips for Book 2; he managed an extremely lucky crit and thus received all the XP for the kill, even though others were present and involved in the battle. The others were displeased.

I think the xp was probably shared between him and Red Cloak and Xykon - but since Shelby was so much lower it dinged him.

[Fraxinus]

Interesting comic! I must say I do like Haley's sudden "seek and destroy" attitude we can see near the end! :smallbiggrin:

[factotum]

When I saw the title, I immediately thought it would involve Belkar recognizing Hank the Halfling Accountant as someone from his village/caravan/whatever-community-OotS-halflings-live-in and lazily throw a dagger in his eye.


I would be surprised if Hank dies here, considering that he helped Haley out back in OtOoPCs...admittedly, ISTR them saying they were even back then, so it's possible that won't stop it.

[Mercenary Pen]

But then how do they get out? Celia would be an easy target if they tried to fly. I suppose the cleric can Food and Water them ok, but they are doomed if they stay in the basement.

Not necessarily. As things would stand, they have all the terrain on their side, meaning that even the toughest guild thieves are going to have difficulty on the way in. With the staircase destroyed, there's room for people to either drop to the floor and provoke an attack as they stand up again OR snipe from the exit, not both. There's no point in Haley and co trying to leave via the only exit until all of Bozzak's people have bitten the dust, because there's probably an ambush set up the other side of the doorway in case she does exactly that... They'll have to wait until after everyone's gone down before escaping in any case, at which point flying becomes a moot point (apart from Celia refusing to carry Belkar out so that he can't puke all over her).

[Shatteredtower]

Can anyone tell me where we're getting "same casting time as spell" from?

In the 3.5 version DMG, on pg 213, second paragraph under the heading USING ITEMS:

"Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description states otherwise. However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, whether it's a scroll, a wand, or a pair of boots, unless the item description specifically states otherwise."

This means that it takes ten minutes to cast sending from a scroll, and a quickened action to cast a quickened magic missile from a scroll, not a standard action for both.

Sorry for the delayed response: didn't have my DMG handy until this morning.


As things would stand, they have all the terrain on their side, meaning that even the toughest guild thieves are going to have difficulty on the way in.

The Guild can always try to smoke them out. Even if the cleric has enough protection from fire spells to go around, that still offers no defense against asphyxiation. Sure, there are spells to deal with that problem as well, but I've never seen a cleric prepare them that wasn't expecting an encounter with bad air. (A guy on healing duty at the temple has little reason to expect it would be handy "just in case".)

It's not like Pete's going to want to gripe too loudly about property damage to the people that kept him from regenerating his eyes for all those years.

[spectralphoenix]

The Guild can always try to smoke them out. Even if the cleric has enough protection from fire spells to go around, that still offers no defense against asphyxiation. Sure, there are spells to deal with that problem as well, but I've never seen a cleric prepare them that wasn't expecting an encounter with bad air. (A guy on healing duty at the temple has little reason to expect it would be handy "just in case".)

It's not like Pete's going to want to gripe too loudly about property damage to the people that kept him from regenerating his eyes for all those years.

Can they? Smoke rises, so I don't think they could get smoke into the basement without actually going down there and setting a fire.

[R.O.A.]

what stops them dropping flaming sticks or shooting down fire arrows?

[Scarlet Knight]

Bozzak probably figured he could surprise Haley and have everyone file down the stairs and set up in the basement before storming the secret rooom. Of course, he sends down the expendable people first just in case, but he probably wasn't planning on fighting down the stairs.

Bozzak(aside) : Ok, Hank, who's next?
Hank: um...Toby . Seems the profits from dog-fighting have dropped the last quarter..
Bozzak (aloud) :Toby! You get the honor of first kill today!
Toby: Gee, thanks, Boss! I won't let you down!

[Shatteredtower]

Can they? Smoke rises, so I don't think they could get smoke into the basement without actually going down there and setting a fire.

Smoke also follows the path of least resistance. Seal the exit, and the smoke has nowhere to go. Sure, the fire will eventually consume all available air, but that also kills the defenders.

[Monsterknuffel]

Progress !!

Thank you Giant, for that small step forward.

[Eorek]

I have a feeling V's gonna come in the nick of time to save the day :smallbiggrin:

[Eorek]

I laughed for the first time in a long time at this strip.

Ha, same here!

[Taekwondodo]

is anyone else glad we've got back to hayley? it was starting to drag a bit.:smallsmile: Like no-name Loki cleric do you think he joins band now V has flown off?

[Laurentio II]

Smoke also follows the path of least resistance. Seal the exit, and the smoke has nowhere to go. Sure, the fire will eventually consume all available air, but that also kills the defenders.
By the time the smoke start filling the bottom part of the house, he already polluted the air enough to choke the fire.
But anyway, do you really want to try to smoke a sylph? Because there is some relative chance that she has some air spell of sort. Likely.

[Shatteredtower]

By the time the smoke start filling the bottom part of the house, he already polluted the air enough to choke the fire.

Mundane fire, possibly. Either way, the air has been polluted enough to be trouble, especially if you then seal the entrance entirely.


But anyway, do you really want to try to smoke a sylph? Because there is some relative chance that she has some air spell of sort. Likely.

Considering how few core sorcerer spells allow targets to breath polluted air (limited wish and wish), it's not likely at all.

[nleseul]

"Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description states otherwise. However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, whether it's a scroll, a wand, or a pair of boots, unless the item description specifically states otherwise."

This means that it takes ten minutes to cast sending from a scroll, and a quickened action to cast a quickened magic missile from a scroll, not a standard action for both.

And the description for spell completion items does specifically state otherwise: "Activating a spell completion item is a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does." (From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm) as previously quoted; don't have my books on hand to look up page references.)

[Shatteredtower]

And the description for spell completion items does specifically state otherwise...

Doesn't matter. The passage I quoted states that it has to be the item that specifically states otherwise -- not the category of the item.

[nleseul]

Actually, looking more closely at the admittedly contradictory rules here, you're probably right. Never mind.

[Arcadius798]

i wonder just how many crimes the ******* guild commited...

anyway, great job rich

[hamishspence]

Yes, is it bit blurry. Passage- overriding passage.

Page 213: casting time for a spell is the time required to activate same power in an item whether it is a scroll, a wand, or a pair of boots, unless the item description specifically states otherwise.

Page 213: Spell completion:

A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that's left to do is perform the short, simple, finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on.)

Activating a spell completion item is a standard action.and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as spellcasting does.

Note for wands and staffs (spell trigger) it explicitly states if longer casting time exists, it applies.

also, for Use-activated, it explicitly states reverse- unless time is explicitly stated as Longer, its standard action, or no action.

For scrolls, nothing stated either way.

Maybe errata clarifies it.

EDIT:
Rules Compendium does have little footnote under Scroll- same casting time as spell.

[Varkarrus]

First of all: I think the cleric is autistic: He never makes eye-contact

Second: He's going to die. He screwed himself up after saying "no names, please"

[hamishspence]

Its usually stereotyped as "shifty" in most stories: Might even be a trope "Look Me in the Eye"

and gets subverted lots: the guy who looks people straight and has firm handshake is the conman in Discworld.

[chiasaur11]

Its usually stereotyped as "shifty" in most stories: Might even be a trope "Look Me in the Eye"

and gets subverted lots: the guy who looks people straight and has firm handshake is the conman in Discworld.

In fact, he banks on the handshake eye contact thing.

Of course, he's a decent enough guy, deep down.

[David Argall]

By the time the smoke start filling the bottom part of the house, he already polluted the air enough to choke the fire.
But anyway, do you really want to try to smoke a sylph? Because there is some relative chance that she has some air spell of sort. Likely.

The details don't really matter here. Any time you are stuck in one location and your enemy can just sit and wait for you to come out, you are dead. It just takes awhile. Eventually you have to come out and fight on the enemy's terms.

Haley is in a fine tactical situation. She can hold off her foes for a long time. [Probably. Cloudkill looks like it would rapidly dispose of the defense here. The thieves guild may not have access to 5th level Arcane spell, tho they should, but if they use them 1d4 con damage per round is fatal fast.] But her strategic situation is lousy. She can't expect help to show nearly in time. The guild amuses itself with smoke bombs and such and eventually can just wander in.

Since Haley seems to have a back-up plan of Durkon raising everybody, she seems to realize she is in deep do-do.

[hamishspence]

it's a siege: Question is, will they stop attacking and try to starve them out? or just keep probing, wait till Haley gets tired, strike?

[link55557]

I think the cleric is autistic: He never makes eye-contact
No, he does too make eye contact in this comic.

How mad will V be when he learns that he spent months trying to contact those guys, and they finally make contact AFTER he's gone?

I for one can't wait

[Ceric]

My new favorite character survives another strip! I refer to the cleric, of course.

Also, I predict that Belkar will convince the cleric to cast Remove Curse. After all, he's a high-level PC and the cleric wants to live, and the spell shouldn't take too long to cast.

[Warren Dew]

My wife felt the same way about the people she grew up with, although to the best of my knowledge she never killed any of them with arrows.

I know what you mean ... my wife doesn't use arrows either.

[FoE]

My wife felt the same way about the people she grew up with, although to the best of my knowledge she never killed any of them with arrows.

Did any of the people she grew up with show up years later and try to kill her?