Same question about Bozzok....

[Super_slash2]

I mentioned in a different post that Bozzok is most likely a full orc and yet is clearer smarter than alot of other characters in the strip (Elan, Belkar and Crystal, for example). I don't know much about D&D so I looked it up and it seems Orcs get lower Intelligence by default merely by being Orcs. So, my question is - as a thief, would there be any reason for Bozzok to have invested more points in Intelligence (if that's even possible; he'd also have to spend 2 just to get upto normal)? I don't actually play the game, I'm just curious if it has any function, after all he wasn't always the leader of the thieves; there must have been a time when he was just starting out.

Also, who else is curious to know if one of the guild secrets Old Blind Pete mentioned is some kind-of funky attack?

[Morty]

Mechanics-wise, Intelligence is useful to Bozzok as a Rogue because it gives him more skills. He's most likely to have put 18 in his Int at 1st level, making it 16, at raise it consequently, as he's probably preety high-level.
I'd also say he's a half-orc rather than full-blooded orc, as orcs don't live in human cities.

[Yoyoyo]

Are we sure he's full Orc? I get the whole teeth rules confused.

[Chronos]

He appears to be a full orc, since he's got fangs in both jaws. The Giant's half-orcs only have fangs on their lower jaw. It doesn't matter, though: Half-orcs and full orcs both have a -2 to Int.

For most rogue builds, Int is the second-most important stat-- That's also why Therkla is relatively smart (ninja are very similar to rogues). Orc or half-orc isn't really the best choice of race, though.

[amanamana]

Tinhk of it in this way: a rogue has much more use (in the rules) for intelligence than a fighter. Yet, there is Roy with his (probably) 16-ish intelligence.
The thing is that roleplay (and storytelling, in the case of OOTS comics) should be the main reason to assigning stats.

[David Argall]

He appears to be a full orc, since he's got fangs in both jaws. The Giant's half-orcs only have fangs on their lower jaw.

Thog has fangs in both jaws, as does Therkla, and her mom.

[TheElfLord]

Thog has fangs in both jaws, as does Therkla, and her mom.

I think he means visible when mouth is closed. Both Thog and Therkla only have visible lower fangs then. You can always see both sets of Bozzok's fangs, but that may be because I couldn't find a panel of him with his mouth closed.

[Querzis]

Orc or half-orc isn't really the best choice of race, though.

They arent players who decided their races and classe. They were born with very high intelligence for half-orc (or orc) and therefore being a ninja (or rogue) seemed like a logical decision. Of course, they could also have decided to become wizard if they had high intelligence but you dont want to waste that strength bonus with a caster class.

Honestly, could you please remember that, even if OOTS is a world that works with D&D rules, they are no players. Bozzok was just a gifted half-orc (or orc). And by the way, I'm quite sure hes a half-orc because, regardless of how many fangs he got, if he was a full orc he woudnt be living in a human city.

[Lira]

I think he means visible when mouth is closed. Both Thog and Therkla only have visible lower fangs then. You can always see both sets of Bozzok's fangs, but that may be because I couldn't find a panel of him with his mouth closed.There`s one with his mouth closed in Origins. It only shows one set of fangs (the lower ones). So, half-orc I guess.

[TheElfLord]

There`s one with his mouth closed in Origins. It only shows one set of fangs (the lower ones). So, half-orc I guess.

Ah, I didn't have a copy of Origin's handy (though I was reading Haley's story in there on Tuesday). Good catch.

[Metal Head]

Mechanics-wise, Intelligence is useful to Bozzok as a Rogue because it gives him more skills. He's most likely to have put 18 in his Int at 1st level, making it 16, at raise it consequently, as he's probably preety high-level.
I'd also say he's a half-orc rather than full-blooded orc, as orcs don't live in human cities.

Bozzok seems to already be a bit of an exception within his race, whatever it may be, so I don't see why he couldn't live in a human city if he is an orc. It's not like the laws of physics forbid him from entering a human city.

[David Argall]

I think he means visible when mouth is closed. Both Thog and Therkla only have visible lower fangs then. You can always see both sets of Bozzok's fangs, but that may be because I couldn't find a panel of him with his mouth closed.

See 551+. The orcs there show only lower fangs when mouths are closed.

[Morty]

Bozzok seems to already be a bit of an exception within his race, whatever it may be, so I don't see why he couldn't live in a human city if he is an orc. It's not like the laws of physics forbid him from entering a human city.

No, but while he might be a full-blooder orc it is nevertheless more likely that he's a half-orc.

[hamishspence]

Is there a slight colour difference between, for example, Thog, Therkla and the stable owner V uses Explosive Runes on, and the Orcs on Banjo Island? And does Bozzok fit into one, or the other?

Origins orcs tended to have either bushy beards or lots of hair on heads, though exceptions existed. And teeth looked very slightly longer.

[Ikialev]

Bozzok has four fangs, when mouth open.
Therkla, f.e., has only 2 visible.

So that would make Bozzok two times more orc.

[Mercenary Pen]

Bozzok has four fangs, when mouth open.
Therkla, f.e., has only 2 visible.

So that would make Bozzok two times more orc.

Either that, or Therkla needed some dentistry at some stage...

[hamishspence]

Therkla's mother has four, Mungu from the island only appears to have 1, lower fang.

Maybe its artistic decisions?

[Varkarrus]

Maybe it's something else entirely.

[ericgrau]

I'm tired of half-orcs and fighters that dump int, bards that pump cha, rogues that pump dex, etc. Even mechanically speaking it's not always the best idea at the expense of all else; the others stats have their uses depending on your focus. And certainly it's not always the best idea roleplaying or realism-wise. Sometimes the comic gives in to these stereotypes and other times it openly opposes them. For example Bozzok could get his attack bonus from str instead of dex & weapon finesse ("gasp! no! heresy!"). He could still have a decent enough modifier in the essential dex skill(s), while focusing more on others like the int ones (forgery, search, disable device, etc.). Plus with a good int he gets more skill points. Or maybe he's sub-optimal and Rich just wanted something different. Either way.

[hamishspence]

Has anyone done colour comparison? Does he match the island orcs, or Thog?

[Ikialev]

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/4716/comparisonuq5.png

Here you have. By me.

Bozzok is more DarkGreen, Thog is LightGreen and islandorks are GreenGreen.

[hamishspence]

Then there's Therkla, the stablemaster, and the barbarian Belkar kills. Maybe colour cannot be classified? or Bozzok is unique?

I haven't got online pic of The Deebt Collector from Dragon

Belkar: "What're you going to do, repossess my health?"
Collector:"Actually, yes."
Collector "Plus interest, of course."
Belkar: "Arrrgh!"
Collector: "Hold still, I need to assess a late fee!"

[Varkarrus]

I'm tired of half-orcs and fighters that dump int, bards that pump cha, rogues that pump dex, etc. Even mechanically speaking it's not always the best idea at the expense of all else; the others stats have their uses depending on your focus. And certainly it's not always the best idea roleplaying or realism-wise. Sometimes the comic gives in to these stereotypes and other times it openly opposes them. For example Bozzok could get his attack bonus from str instead of dex & weapon finesse ("gasp! no! heresy!"). He could still have a decent enough modifier in the essential dex skill(s), while focusing more on others like the int ones (forgery, search, disable device, etc.). Plus with a good int he gets more skill points. Or maybe he's sub-optimal and Rich just wanted something different. Either way.

Guh???

In english please. I don't play D&D.:smallcool:

[Setra]

He is obviously 3/4 Orc.

His mommy was a half orc and his daddy was an orc.

[Querzis]

...humans dont look the same. Even in a webcomic with stick figures, humans have different skins of tones, haircut and things like that. So I woudnt assume that Bozzok skin tone or number of fangs mean anything.

I mean I know its really fun to overcomplicate things but there is a point where it become kinda ridiculous, even for a Nale fan like me.

[R.O.A.]

Guh???

In english please. I don't play D&D.:smallcool:

If you don't play D&D, then that's neither interesting nor relevant, and I can't think how to translate it...

[T-O-E]

He is obviously 3/4 Orc.

His mommy was a half orc and his daddy was an orc.

He's the son of Therkla and Crong from comic 552! And the half-brother of Thog!

It all makes sense now...

[B. Dandelion]

Guh???

In english please. I don't play D&D.:smallcool:
Me either, but I guess I've played enough of other RPGs in general to make up most of the difference. (D20srd (http://www.d20srd.org/) helps too.) Generally the classes are centered around one or two stats (intelligence, dexterity, strength, charisma, wisdom and constitution -- and/or others such as luck which D&D doesn't use) and many races have bonuses to one (or more) stats at the expense of (an)other stat(s). This leads directly to obvious stereotypical class/race combos. If a wizard is most dependent on Intelligence, and one race gives a bonus to that stat, and another gives a penalty, you're going to find a lot of wizards of the first race and not very many at all of the latter. So ericgrau thinks it's neat to see a character that defies the cliché like Bozzak the half-orc rogue, because most players who choose half-orc for their character's race are probably going to play him as a fighter or barbarian (as half-orcs get a bonus to strength and a penalty to intelligence).

Thog obviously plays right into the stereotype. Intelligence is his "dump stat," meaning lowest score -- he put a high priority on fighting skills and strength at the expense of intelligence. Roy, who is quite intelligent, defies it. O-chul, who used to be a fighter, cops to having used Charisma as his own personal dump stat, which goes badly for him when he attempts to use a skill (bluff) that is highly dependent on an adequate Charisma score.

Does that help at all or just muddy the waters even further?

[Cleverdan22]

I guess its just a skin tone thing. Orcs speak with very thick speech bubbles, so that should be the answer right there, correct?

[Moriarty]

thog also speaks in thick lines, altough hes an half orc..

also does the dwarf barbarian from the order of the scribblle (cant remember the name atm), so those "Loud" speak may be a result of a low intelligence score

[Kranden]

Maybe he just got perfect rolls and doesn't have any dump stats :P That might explain why he is the leader of the Rogue Guild as he has the best stats.

[Chronos]

On looking closer, Thog shows all four fangs when his mouth is open, but Therkla only shows two. Further, the female orcs on Orc Island seem to have less prominent fangs than the males. So there appears to be some sexual dimorphism here. Male orcs do seem to have larger fangs than male half-orcs, but it's a bit more subjective. So I'm no longer sure whether Bozzak is an orc or half-orc.

[jesteriswise]

i get that its fun to debate this stuff and all...but does it matter so much? I mean he's an orcish dude without a door, i.e. no threat to haley. now if he were to rip one off the hinges and wield it, that's a whole new ballgame.

[Liwen]

why would people assume that an orc can't live in a human city. The Giant could have houseruled in the possibility with ease.

I used to believe that half-orc had only one set of teeth in the lower jaws and orcs had both, but the numerous counter examples leads me to this theory:

Just has humans, half-orcs may have any skin tone in green. hovewer, it would seem pure orcs can't have the ligther sades. The teeth delimea is linked to an art upgrade that happens to make us believe the number of teeth determines the race of the subject, but really all half-orcs and orcs have as many as four proeminent teeth of various size.

The only way to cleary identify a character has half-orc or orc is thourgh text-based evidences, has the limited options brought by the art of the Giant renders completly impossble to be sure of anything.

Futher, I believe the Giant doesn't really cares one way or another. Bozzok is big, strong and apperently gifted with high intellect, that's all we really need to know.

PS: His strategy in the last panels of the most recent update suggest he's not THAT bright. He could be leader of the guild because of leadership skills and level, not his intellect. He might not even BE a rogue for all we know.

[Kranden]

Bozzok is actually not a rogue even though he is the leader of all the rogues.


He is in fact..

DUN DUN DUN


a high level aristocrat NPC class!!!

WHAT A TWIST!

[Chronos]

The only way to cleary identify a character has half-orc or orc is thourgh text-based evidences, has the limited options brought by the art of the Giant renders completly impossble to be sure of anything.Come to think of it, chief grukgruk seemed to think that Therkla was just an unusually pretty orc, until she told him otherwise. So "there's no easy way to tell the difference" might be the canonical in-comic answer, as well.

[dps]

Come to think of it, chief grukgruk seemed to think that Therkla was just an unusually pretty orc, until she told him otherwise. So "there's no easy way to tell the difference" might be the canonical in-comic answer, as well.


Yeah, but I'm not sure that the chief has high enough intelligence to easily tee a rock from a tree, so I don't know that it proves anything.

[Firestar27]

Me either, but I guess I've played enough of other RPGs in general to make up most of the difference. (D20srd (http://www.d20srd.org/) helps too.) Generally the classes are centered around one or two stats (intelligence, dexterity, strength, charisma, wisdom and constitution -- and/or others such as luck which D&D doesn't use) and many races have bonuses to one (or more) stats at the expense of (an)other stat(s). This leads directly to obvious stereotypical class/race combos. If a wizard is most dependent on Intelligence, and one race gives a bonus to that stat, and another gives a penalty, you're going to find a lot of wizards of the first race and not very many at all of the latter. So ericgrau thinks it's neat to see a character that defies the cliché like Bozzak the half-orc rogue, because most players who choose half-orc for their character's race are probably going to play him as a fighter or barbarian (as half-orcs get a bonus to strength and a penalty to intelligence).

Thog obviously plays right into the stereotype. Intelligence is his "dump stat," meaning lowest score -- he put a high priority on fighting skills and strength at the expense of intelligence. Roy, who is quite intelligent, defies it. O-chul, who used to be a fighter, cops to having used Charisma as his own personal dump stat, which goes badly for him when he attempts to use a skill (bluff) that is highly dependent on an adequate Charisma score.

Does that help at all or just muddy the waters even further?

You're close, but a little wrong on the conclusion. He was saying that as a half-orc, Bozzak would be better not acting as a fencing style rogue. He would be better off (and is probably doing) a brute force rogue build. The rogue class in this case is mostly for the sneak attack damage and the skills. The rogue class doesn't really favor a fencing style build that much except that a few rogue skills are based off of dexterity, the same skill used in fencing builds. However, there are many non-dexterity based rogue skills, and Bozzak may just be playing to his strength and is playing a strength based, brute force rogue.

[B. Dandelion]

You're close, but a little wrong on the conclusion. He was saying that as a half-orc, Bozzak would be better not acting as a fencing style rogue. He would be better off (and is probably doing) a brute force rogue build. The rogue class in this case is mostly for the sneak attack damage and the skills. The rogue class doesn't really favor a fencing style build that much except that a few rogue skills are based off of dexterity, the same skill used in fencing builds. However, there are many non-dexterity based rogue skills, and Bozzak may just be playing to his strength and is playing a strength based, brute force rogue.
Oh dear. Well thanks for the clarification, I was trying to focus on the parts of his argument that I would know a *little* about, since he did mention role-playing and realism, but I certainly don't know all the ins and outs of the classes. I did kind of assume dexterity tended to be the rogue's preferred stat (I get the impression it's Haley's highest score), but I guess they're pretty flexible?

[Firestar27]

<snip>
I did kind of assume dexterity tended to be the rogue's preferred stat (I get the impression it's Haley's highest score), but I guess they're pretty flexible?

Emphasis mine.

Is that some sort of pun?

[B. Dandelion]

...not intentionally.

[Chronos]

In principle, any class can have any ability scores. Some classes are helped more by certain scores, but it depends on how you play them. For instance, strength helps you hit harder in combat, and dexterity helps you sneak around. A rogue's class abilities are mostly better suited to sneaking around than they are to direct combat, but that doesn't mean a rogue has to sneak around.

[derfenrirwolv]

When you make a character in D&D you roll 4 six sided dice 6 times. You take the three highest and generate a number between 3 (the worst) and 18 (the best) The statistics of the rolls means you have alot of numbers in the 8-12 range, but not a whole lot in the 3-6 or 16 to 18 range.

For example

12 12 8 14 16 10



You then say "I want to play a(n) X. X is your class. Barbarian,Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Paladin Sorcerer or Wizard.

Each class has at least one stat that it uses the most.

Strength: Makes you better at hitting things with melee weapons and lets you do more damage when you do hit. This is usualy the highest stat for Fighters, Barbarians, paladins, and arguably monks (monks pretty much need every stat but charismia to be high, and aim for at least a 10 inteligence)


Dexterity: Makes you harder to hit, improves your ability to hit with ranged weapons, and can be used to improve your ability to hit with light melee weapons. Also improves your ability to get out of the way of some spells. It improves your ability to hide, move silently, and a host of other roguey skills. Often the rogues highest stat.


Con: Gives you more hit points. When your hit points reach zero, you're dead, so this is almost everyone's second favorite stat. Also improves your ability to resist some spells.

Inteligence: Gives you more skill points so you can get better at more skills. Also makes a wizards spells harder to resist so, no surprise, that wizards almost damn near always put their highest skill here.

Wisdom: Gives you bonuses to notice people trying to be sneaky or lying. Also makes cleric spells harder to resist. Almost always the highest stat on a cleric

Charismia: Makes you more likable and able to influence people when you don't want to hit them with a metal object or fry them to a crisp with a spell. Consequently in a game that revolves around going into a dunegon and killing things for their treasure this is almost always the dump stat for any player but a bard or a sorcerer, who use it to make their spells harder to resist

Now, what does this have to do with race?

Most races besides humans add and subtract from your ability scores.

Dwarves for example add +2 to con and subtract 2 from charismia. If you're trying to be a bard or a sorcerer you probably don't want to pick a dwarf because that 16 you rolled will only be a 14. While it may be cool to be a dwarven keeper of lore inspiring his fellows on the battle feild with tales of legendary dwarven courage on the battle field... mechanically its sub optimal.

Likewise if you're a wizard you don't want to be a half orc because you'll get -2 to your inteligence (ouch) a -2 to your charisma (no big deal) and a +2 to your strength... which is probably worthless.

This leads to certain sterotypes where certain races are almost always a certain class. The above half orc wouldn't want to be a wizard, but makes the best damage dealing fighter or barbarian.


There is a slight subversion to this. In pervious edditions, dwarves couldn't be wizards, and they're listed as having a culture that doesn't trust magic. Mechanically, they (imho) make the best wizards and elves the worst, but because of the thematic ties people do often play an elven wizard and avoid dwarven ones.

Confused yet?

[DBear]

Actually, there are various ways to generate character stats. 4d6-worst d is but one method. For the Gygax fans, there is the standard 3d6, tough to roll good characters. Other systems include a point-buy system where you started with minimum stats 9 and bought points, but cost more to buy good stats. Other systems are also used. For example, the Baldur's Gate series used 3d6, but set a minimum stat total of 75. And if you wanted, say, a paladin class, it would throw out all rolls that didn't have a minimum 17 charisma (this is 2e, which I'm most familiar with).

[Super_slash2]

Thanks for the explanations derfenrirwolv, drbear and chronos. I already understood the basic concept, I just didn't really see how it tied together with D&D itself.

I'm really willing to bet alot of money that the half-set of teeth thing is a good indicator. Therkla, especially in the starting strips always consistently had a half-set of teeth when her mouth is open in panel after strip after strip. Just randomly seeing a glimpse of the top left-most tooth doesn't undo all of the artistic renditions in all the previous work; she's been shown with a half-set about 80% of the time. I think the half-elf trait carries over to the half-orc thing, just because it slips up a few strips shouldn't elicit "omg! he was a full orc all along!!!" and vice versa.

I hope Bozzok actually does something the next few strips, the suspense is getting to me (about Bozzok's Competence).