What's with the Belkar hate?

[Calmness]

Belkar used to be a pretty valuable member of the team and yet, from the recent strips it's seems as if his allies don't want anything to do with him, as if they suddenly noticed he is Chaotic Evil. Am i the only one bothered by this? If Haley hates Belkar's evil acts why did she adventure with him in the first place? She even went as far as to say he is a liability despite Belkar having saved the Order at least (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html) twice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html).

And please don't tell me Belkar can't be trusted. He has had a hundred opportunities to turn on the Order and still chooses to stay loyal. Heck, he and Elan are the only ones still happy to be on the team, with everyone else being disgusted with each other.

Sorry about the rant, it's just a bit sad to see what was a fun character being treated badly by his "allies".

[hamishspence]

I think it's more Belkar getting less amd less reliable without Roy to keep him in check.

[Mike62]

Belkar has not become less reliable. Last time I checked, Roy wasnt around when Tsuiko offered Belkar a chance to sell out, and he chose not to. Haley and Celia are going to see just how valuable an ally he is now. (Unless Haley somehow pulls a deux ex machina and takes out the whole thieves guild)

[hamishspence]

As in- once he's gotten out of city he's killed one Innocent Bystander and one Oracle.

[Garuk One Ear]

twice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html).

Maybe they should just keep owl's wisdom on him the whole time....

[Calmness]

As in- once he's gotten out of city he's killed one Innocent Bystander and one Oracle.
And he also killed Goblins who had surrendered as well as a Lawful Good Kobold, and you didn't see Roy whining about it.

[FujinAkari]

Belkar has not become less reliable. Last time I checked, Roy wasnt around when Tsuiko offered Belkar a chance to sell out,

Belkar later expressed regret that he didn't sell out, this is a very poor example.

[hamishspence]

Belkar: "I'll just harvest their kidneys and catch up"
Roy: "Belkar!!"

And how was Roy to know Kobold was LG? He never got to speak to him or see him.

[nleseul]

Belkar used to be a pretty valuable member of the team and yet, from the recent strips it's seems as if his allies don't want anything to do with him, as if they suddenly noticed he is Chaotic Evil. Am i the only one bothered by this? If Haley hates Belkar's evil acts why did she adventure with him in the first place? She even went as far as to say he is a liability despite Belkar having saved the Order at least (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html) twice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html).

The thing is, Belkar is useful in a dungeon, because there are plenty of things he can kill with impunity. When you're trying to interact with things peacefully in town, though, or when you're trying to be stealthy (as Haley and Celia have been for the last while), he becomes much more of a liability.

[Linkavitch]

Belkar is awesome. Everyone who doesn't think so is entitled to their own opinion, however...


Quote by Adam Savage(almost)

I reject their reality, and substitute my own!

[Calmness]

Belkar: "I'll just harvest their kidneys and catch up"
Roy: "Belkar!!"

And how was Roy to know Kobold was LG? He never got to speak to him or see him.

I was talking about this one. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0115.html)
I'll give you the Kobold example as Roy wasn't there, but i highly doubt he would have punished Belkar either, the order didn't seem to mind his actions back then.


The thing is, Belkar is useful in a dungeon, because there are plenty of things he can kill with impunity. When you're trying to interact with things peacefully in town, though, or when you're trying to be stealthy (as Haley and Celia have been for the last while), he becomes much more of a liability.

So they don't mind his actions when they are morally wrong as long as they help the party, is that right?

[hamishspence]

In D&D, killing is only wrong under certain circumstances, and being Down a Dungeon removes some (not all) of these.

Remember when Belkar first killed an NPC in a town, Durkon's reaction to Roy getting him "out on bail" was "Have ye gone daft??"

[Mike62]

Belkar later expressed regret that he didn't sell out, this is a very poor example.


But the point is, he didnt sell out...nor did he go back after realizing he could have sold out...it proves my point perfectly

[Calmness]

In D&D, killing is only wrong under certain circumstances, and being Down a Dungeon removes some (not all) of these.


Well, while the story is really focused on punishing Belkar and taking his crimes very seriously, it seems a bit inconsistent to have ignored every single crime he has committed, inside or outside a dungeon.

Belkar was originaly used as a comic relief character whose evil actions were ignored for the sake of comedy, and for some reason comedy seems to have taken a back seat to high-ground morality situations, which in my opinion really hurts evil characters such as Xykon or Belkar.

Gotta go folks, see you later.

[Talya]

This thread should merge with http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94473

[hamishspence]

Mark didn't exactly stop him, merely meant he had to be more indirect. Him and V both got yelled at about this by Roy.

[FujinAkari]

But the point is, he didnt sell out...nor did he go back after realizing he could have sold out...it proves my point perfectly

Belkar knows he can't leave Roy's body behind. This is the stated reason why he hasn't abandoned Haley yet. Again, you aren't helping your case.


I was talking about this one. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0115.html)

And once again you produce an example where Belkar is doing something wrong with Roy no where near him, yet Roy is somehow accountable for not magically knowing it was occuring?

All Roy would see is Belkar chasing down goblins, which is entirely acceptable behavior. Belkar isn't under any requirement to allow the Goblins to regroup, and cutting down the enemy during a rout is expected.

[hamishspence]

In any case, it tends to kick in after they leave the dungeon. Though Belkar didn't catch much flak for chasing a lawyer around, and in the process accidentally setting off explosion.

He did end up in chains a short time later for unrelated reasons.

[Talya]

Belkar's a wonderful little bastard.

[hamishspence]

He is entertaining. And gets some of the best lines.

[Fiery Diamond]

Belkar's a wonderful little bastard.

I think you summed up both why people like him and why people hate him in the same sentence. At the beginning, nearly all (if not actually all) readers saw this entire sentence to be true - this was why Belkar was not disliked, despite his evil actions. Lately, however, many people are coming to the conclusion that the "wonderful" part is not the case, making him merely a "little bastard." Furthermore, he is only "little" because he is Small sized. In terms of affection or terms of grandness of scale, "little" doesn't seem to fit to many either. This makes Belkar simply a "bastard," which is certainly a reason to hate a character. Frankly, Belkar is every bit as evil as Xykon is, but Xykon is the Bad Guy, not working with the Order. If Belkar were to become another antagonist, I think a lot of the hate would go away, or at least lessen a lot.

-Fiery Diamond

[hamishspence]

yes, at the moment he is distinctly lacking in Magnificence.

[Querzis]

Frankly, Belkar is every bit as evil as Xykon is, but Xykon is the Bad Guy, not working with the Order. If Belkar were to become another antagonist, I think a lot of the hate would go away, or at least lessen a lot.

Exactly. I have nothing against a character like Belkar as an antagonist but I have everything against having a guy like Belkar with the freaking good guys.

Seriously, the only reason the rest of the party havent killed him yet, as they really should since hes a lot more dangerous to anyone then most of the things they kill without impunity, is that this was originally nothing more then a parody of D&D and that Belkar was a parody of how people usually play the Chaotic Evil alignement. But since this comic now have a much more important plot, I just dont understand why they dont just kill him already.

This go both way too, the only reason why Belkar hasnt killed them yet is because this was a parody of a D&D party...though with him its a lot more believable since he got a very low attention span so even if he might think about betraying them the next second he'll think : «Thow the cat in her face!»

[Talya]

Bah. You guys probably didn't like Jayne Cobb, either.

(The Chaotic-Evil murdering jerk Jayne Cobb is aligned similar to Belkar--to the point where Belkar could be his "mini-me"-- and is absolutely the best character on Firefly/Serenity.)

[Kish]

And once again you produce an example where Belkar is doing something wrong with Roy no where near him, yet Roy is somehow accountable for not magically knowing it was occuring?
I actually agree with this. Roy has high Intelligence and Wisdom. If he wants to claim to be Belkar's "warden," then he is responsible for not letting Belkar out of his sight, ever. The consequences of treating Belkar like a companion rather than a prisoner are both demonstrated at that link (not to mention when Belkar joins the Barbarians' Guild) and well within Roy's supposed capabilities to guess.

[Querzis]

I actually agree with this. Roy has high Intelligence and Wisdom. If he wants to claim to be Belkar's "warden," then he is responsible for not letting Belkar out of his sight, ever. The consequences of treating Belkar like a companion rather than a prisoner are both demonstrated at that link (not to mention when Belkar joins the Barbarians' Guild) and well within Roy's supposed capabilities to guess.

I unfortunately have to agree with that which is really annoying because Roy is my favorite character. Belkar not only shoudnt be with the good guys but also make the good guys look bad for not killing him or at least restraining him better. Which is why, once again, I want them to kill him or I want him to join the bad guys and I hope its the latter because he have some very good one-liners.

[nleseul]

(The Chaotic-Evil murdering jerk Jayne Cobb is aligned similar to Belkar--to the point where Belkar could be his "mini-me"-- and is absolutely the best character on Firefly/Serenity.)

Better than Inara? No way.

And speaking of Inara, I'll be in my bunk.

(I played a fighter a couple of campaigns ago who unintentionally ended up being very similar in temperament to Jayne. That line got quoted a lot. Even though I'd decided that the character was actually asexual.)

[Hzurr]

A few things to keep in mind:

Belkar has gotten worse without Roy keeping him in check. He now shows absolutely no qualms about killing innocents who have something he wants (such as the gnome with the chocolate bar), or who simply bother him (like the oracle). Belkar didn't do these things when Roy was there. He would suggest it, or want to do it, but was stopped. Haley can't control him like Roy can.

One reason for this, is that Haley couldn't take Belkar in a 1 on 1 fight. Haley is awesome, but she's no where near the warrior that Belkar is. Even with Celia, I wouldn't expect them to survive against him. Roy, on the otherhand, could take Belkar on (or at least make the fight so even that Belkar wouldn't risk it). The only reason Belkar stayed around after Roy died was because of the Mark of Justice, and the reason he's still alive now that he's activated it is because Haley and Celia won't kill someone who is essentially helpless.

Remember, a big part of the strips since the death of Roy, is showing that the party falls apart without a leader. Yes, it means people like Haley and Elan are growing, but neither is able to hold the party together, even though Haley is smart enough to be a leader, and Elan has the charisma to talk to people.

The Order needs Roy to stay together. Belkar and V are proof of that.

-edit- And on a side note, I'm glad that other people also think that Jayne was Chaotic Evil. I think that Wizards refered to him as being CN in their April-fools alignment thingy. I think he's actually an excellent example of how a CE character should be played in a party. Just because they're CE doesn't mean that they slaughter everyone in their sleep, and are complete psycopaths

[Talya]

Better than Inara? No way.

And speaking of Inara, I'll be in my bunk.


I said best character, not hottest character. (And Inara has competition there from more than half the crew...Kaylee and Mal could both give her a run for her money...)

[Shatteredtower]

But the point is, he didnt sell out...

If he'd known what was at stake, he would have.


...nor did he go back after realizing he could have sold out...

Judging by his expression in the fourth panel, he doesn't believe that Tsukiko is the forgiving type (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0521.html). The opportunity is forever lost, and he knows it.

Look, I enjoy reading about Belkar, but the fact is that things were inevitably going to come to a head. Roy took him on with no knowledge of what he was really like, then did the best he could for damage control as it became apparent that he was dealing with a loose cannon.

Note that Roy wanted the Mark of Justice placed on Belkar, as shown here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html). He still saw value in having Belkar's assistance, but obviously didn't trust him -- and with good reason.

Roy is quite aware of Belkar's hand in the destruction of the inn (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0241.html) that lead to the party's second clash with Miko (he might not have been aware of the reasons, but it was pretty clear that the halfling was up to no good, even though he'd never intended to blow up the inn), as well as the events that provoked their third clash with the paladin. How do you trust someone that murders a guard just so he'll be in the position to provoke a paladin's fall at the cost of his own life?

As we've seen since, with the deaths of Yok-Yok, Grand Larceny Guy, and a gnome merchant (to say nothing of V's near-miss with the owlbear, or the time he went after Durkon at Nale's request -- note that Belkar was willing to accept the triggering of the mark while under the charm spell's effect), the restraining bolt has not proven to be as effective as Roy would have liked. It took the Oracle to manoeuvre Belkar into setting it off in a manner that wouldn't let him get away with it. It's not surprising that this set Haley off, because that was the second time the halfling had killed someone useful to her party for no good reason, and she was correct in determining that she had no way, short of killing him, to prevent him from doing so again.

It's not like this is a recent problem between them (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0157.html). I doubt she's forgotten about this time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0469.html) either, when she had to save Belkar from himself (after he'd pushed his luck too far with Skullsy), only for him to turn around and throw O-Chul to the wolves eight strips later (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html). (She's not happy that his assessment in the latter case was right either, or that she was forced to admit it.)

Haley can't control Belkar, and she can't trust him. She's aware of the fact that one of his goals includes causing the death of Roy or V (for the same reasons that Roy knows Durkon will return home posthumously and Elan knows, according to a bonus strip, that V is searching for the right four words). How much support is he owed?

I like the character, but I'm glad I don't have to work with him. :smallamused:

[DougTheHead]

Well, in the past, we've seen that Belkar won't pay attention to Haley as a group leader, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0157.html) so it's harder for her to keep him under control.

But the bigger problem recently is that his Mark of Justice makes him too weak to attack anyone, so his one benefit has been taken away. And this is Haley, the group's cheapskate. She's not going to pay to get rid of a problem Belkar brought on himself.

Of course, if Belkar "convinces" the cleric that it's in his best interest to cure Belkar for free, then he might prove himself useful to Haley again.

[nleseul]

I said best character, not hottest character. (And Inara has competition there from more than half the crew...Kaylee and Mal could both give her a run for her money...)

Well, I'm not really qualified to evaluate the comparative hotness of Mal or any of the male characters, so I'll defer to your judgment there. (Though that one scene where he got to be naked in front of the girls was pretty hot... but I digress.) But I'll agree that the other female crew members are pretty comparable strictly in terms of hotness. Inara is awesome for reasons beyond simple hotness, though; not least of which is just the fact that positive portrayals of sex workers in the media are a good thing.

Just to say something vaguely on topic, I think that there's practically no chance that Belkar is going to die as a result of this scene, or that he's going to be replaced as a member of the Order. It might be convenient or rational for that to happen, but that's just not the way stories work. The job of the author is to take an improbable bunch of characters and show that they actually do end up complementing each other, however unlikely as it may seem. This is the story of the Order, and there is no reason to expect that they won't go through the entire story as a unified whole. Yes, Belkar probably will die per the Oracle's predictions, but only at a time when the plot requires it. And this is not that time. I don't expect Belkar or anyone to die (permanently) at any point before the climax of the story.

It's just like Gollum. It may seem blatantly obvious at the moment that Haley should kill Belkar now and get him out of the way, but I guarantee you that when the whole story is told, it'll probably be apparent that it couldn't have worked without him as a part of it the whole way.

[Talya]

Well, I'm not really qualified to evaluate the comparative hotness of Mal or any of the male characters, so I'll defer to your judgment there. (Though that one scene where he got to be naked in front of the girls was pretty hot... but I digress.) But I'll agree that the other female crew members are pretty comparable strictly in terms of hotness. Inara is awesome for reasons beyond simple hotness, though; not least of which is just the fact that positive portrayals of sex workers in the media are a good thing.


Okay, good point there.

[David Argall]

Belkar has never been a desirable member of the team [from the party view. We find him very desirable.] A paraphrased Roy pretty much sums up the attitude "We owe him too much to abandon him, and we owe everybody else too much to let him loose."

Since he is harmless at the moment and they have even less reason to deem themselves owing anything to him, now's a fine time to dump him.

[Kato]

Few words on the starting question

Hm... the thing is, Belkar is a little onesided, which some people consider boring. And then there are those goodie-two-shoes who just don't like evil people. *shrug* Let's just say he's not someone everyone likes and some people wish he was dead.

I myself am a great fan of death's lil helper. He might not be the best member of the Order, but without him they wouldn't have accomplished what they did. And no matter, what some people claim he IS important to the plot, he always was and probably will be until he dies (or even thereafter) It's not like he is always useful or does the right thing, that's out of question, but he's not that much of a hindrance as e.g. pre-swordsman Elan was.

[Werewolf]

To go back to the original question - why the sudden highmoralgroundedness towards Belkar? I think it might be a part of a set-up for some sort of redemption, hightened contrast and all that. The anti-hero achieving redemption and dying is one of the oldest tropes in the book. Besides he hasn't caused the death of Vaarsuvius yet... :smallsmile:

[Tengu_temp]

(The Chaotic-Evil murdering jerk Jayne Cobb is aligned similar to Belkar--to the point where Belkar could be his "mini-me"-- and is absolutely the best character on Firefly/Serenity.)

Jayne isn't killing just for the sake of rampage - and the only time he did something the others disapproved of, Mal tried to kill him. Also, I think Jayne is more NE.

"Belkar hate" is just Belkar getting the consequences of his actions. I also think that, while some of his one-liners are funny, random violence is not - it gets oooooold quickly.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

Belkar used to be a pretty valuable member of the team and yet, from the recent strips it's seems as if his allies don't want anything to do with him, as if they suddenly noticed he is Chaotic Evil. Am i the only one bothered by this? If Haley hates Belkar's evil acts why did she adventure with him in the first place? She even went as far as to say he is a liability despite Belkar having saved the Order at least (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html) twice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html).

I think the whole "it seems his allies want nothing to do with him" is a bit of exaggeration. I mean the party hasn't had to manage him for months, Haley has. And she wasn't in charge before. She was a member of a diverse team with her own goals and apsirations, just like V, Roy etc. Sure, they had a common direction, but still. And Belkar was largely under control - it's not like he was running wild and rubbing the teams nose in his chaotic evil. Her reaction to him killing the gnome was a lot more accepting then I suspect Roy's would have been. And her pre-mind wipe reaction to him killing the Oracle was perfectly fair and sensible.

As to not removing the curse - well, she didn't know about the imminent attack, and this is Haley. It's in character. It doesn't seem any different to her finding Belkar in jail needing to be bailed because of some crime he committed - I mean, Haley wasting her gold on getting him out of trouble for something he brought on himself?

And it's not like she's been treating him like Miko or even V would have. Because of his past actions, which led to him getting MoJ-ised he has been a bit of a weight on her and his usefulness limited - like having to physically lug Roy's corpse around so not to trigger the MoJ? Yet she didn't abandon him, as much as he appeared to annoy her. When he killed the gnome she didn't abandon him, and when he got sick and they couldn't remember why she still didn't dump him despite the dead wood effect. She was even going to pay for his cure until she learnt it was his own fault. I'm not really seeing any Belkar "hate" from Haley. Fed up perhaps, but hate? No.


Sorry about the rant, it's just a bit sad to see what was a fun character being treated badly by his "allies".

I still don't see the bad treatment. So she decided to let him remain under the effects of a Paladin endorsed punishment for something that was his own fault for a little longer. Roy wouldn't have a problem with that, Durkon probably wouldn't be bothered by it either. V on the other hand would enjoy seeing him like that.

[Santiago]

Belkar reminds many people of that confident kid that bullied them in school. It's childhood trauma.

I love Belkar though hahah. :smallcool:

[Ronan]

Belkar's Evil. Right, but what about early Batman? He killed people as well and was not a bit disliked. Spawn as well. He is a minion of hell. a good one, but he still only has evil powers, works with the tools he has. A good soul in an evil body. Definition of "means justify the end". The thing is Belkar is Pure evil (song by Iced Earth by the way, really fits him :smallbiggrin:)

I honestly think that most of the fun is the Order to keep him at bay. As a fan of his I say that I don't like him to be so mistreated, but the delusional humor is nice.

But often the tension is at least half the fun. Take it out and the story might become a little less fun, less entertaining. I know Rich is a genius and will find a way out that pleases Belkar lovers and Belkar haters(As he always does). I just wouldn't like if tha same thing that happened to Miko happened to him. I really miss the massacre, the gruesomeness and the vileness of this little bastard.

By the way: The brazillian orkut community for OoTS has related "Belkar, THE halfling". And a friend of mine often spends his free time drawing Belkars :smallbiggrin:

[Raging Gene Ray]

He has had a hundred opportunities to turn on the Order and still chooses to stay loyal.

Horrible example.

That's only because of the benefits associated with being an Adventurer, not out of a sense of loyalty. The only reason he didn't accept Tsukiko's offer is because he wanted to fling Mr. Scruffy in somebody's face. When he remembered that he could get the MoJ removed, he wanted to go back. The only reason he couldn't accept it this time is because he flung Mr. Scruffy in Tsukiko's face.

In the next couple of strips, we find out he has no problem with slavery and wants to continue the enslavement of the humans, flying in the face of everything Haley and her Chaotic Good alignment stand for. He ends up making Haley push the cart, calls her a fat ass, and tells her Elan left her because he doesn't like her.

I'm not taking any moral high-ground...but if I were Haley, I would have abandoned him as soon as he outlived his usefulness. And then nicked his magic daggers...and his magic items. Those things are valuable. Heck, might as well take his pants, too.

[Yogi]

Belkar is funny, because you don't have to personally work with him. If you had to, then you'd probably want to stop working with him at the earliest opprotunity.

[[TS] Shadow]

Compare Haley's pre-mindwipe thoughts on Belkar's murder of the Oracle as opposed to the post-mindwipe thoughts on getting rid of his curse. Haley's anger was why she wanted Belkar out, and when she wasn't angry, she didn't abandon him, just made him suffer for a crime he committed; even though he doesn't remember it. Think: did it have to be murder? Somehow, Belkar could have left a mile's radius of the corpse by complete accident. There was no proof. Haley won't abandon Belkar because she feels some pity for him, somewhere. The only person Belkar has left is Mr. Scruffy, and not even Belkar deserves that.

[Talya]

Jayne isn't killing just for the sake of rampage - and the only time he did something the others disapproved of, Mal tried to kill him. Also, I think Jayne is more NE.


Maybe.

"I'll kill a man in a fair fight. Or if I think he's gonna start a fair fight. Or if he bothers me. Or if there's a woman. Or if I'm gettin' paid. Mostly when I'm gettin' paid."


Either way, they're both quite evil.

[fangthane]

By the way: The brazillian orkut community for OoTS has related "Belkar, THE halfling". And a friend of mine often spends his free time drawing Belkars :smallbiggrin:

Hopefully that's not done in a manner that'd force the Giant to send in Jones and Rodriguez to enforce his intellectual property rights... :)

[shadowdemon_lord]

You guys remember how Jayne was hired by Mal right? Jayne had a gun to pointed at Mal, and Mal bought him on the spot, and got Jayne to turn on his previous employer. Later, he tries to do the exact same thing to the firefly crew by selling them out to the alliance when they go to rob a hospital. He acts just like Belkar would in these regards, very CE to me.

[Werewolf]

Well, yeah - Jayne managed to betray his crew once already, and there were only 18 episodes (so far :)). Belkar hasn't betrayed the OOTS in over 600 strips. Does it matter why he remains loyal - as long as he does? V, on the other hand, starts with the best intentions but loyalty now seems pretty low on his list of priorities.

[evileeyore]

Does it matter why he remains loyal - as long as he does?

Yes, it does. If the only reason someone is not betraying you is fear of reprisal or convience, once those reasons are gone so is any "loyalty" they may have.


V, on the other hand, starts with the best intentions but loyalty now seems pretty low on his list of priorities.

Vaarsuvius on the other hand is intensely loyal to Haley, and to a lesser degree Roy. Not Durkon, not Elan.

So remove the reason for Vaarsuvius' loyalty to the portion of the party Vaarsuvius travelled with (Haley and the promise of trying to find Haley) and you will lose any loyalty Vaarsuvius will show. Vaarsuvius is still loyal to whom Vaarsuvius was always loyal, Vaarsuvius' friend, Haley (and to a lesser degree Roy).

Vaarsuvius still has the same intentions Vaarsuvius has had since the party split.

[Shatteredtower]

"I'll kill a man in a fair fight. Or if I think he's gonna start a fair fight. Or if he bothers me. Or if there's a woman. Or if I'm gettin' paid. Mostly when I'm gettin' paid."

Jayne likes to talk big. Doesn't make him any less evil, but there are a lot of things more important than getting paid, bothered, or quality time with a lady to him. It may be that he wasn't aware of that fact at the start of the series, but it sinks in pretty hard over the course of the season.

Jayne has one at least virtue Belkar doesn't: he can feel shame and learn from it. A man who is more afraid for his reputation (or how it affects others) than his life when he's about to lose the latter is redeemable.

[Talya]

Well, yeah - Jayne managed to betray his crew once already, and there were only 18 episodes (so far :)).



Huh. I'm tryin' ta reckon where ya got 18....the most I can come up with are:

14 TV episodes
1 Movie
2 Comic Series (although at 3 comics each, they are hardly a full episode length.)

I suppose 17 is close. Maybe if you split the pilot into both parts...

[Samurai Jill]

(The Chaotic-Evil murdering jerk Jayne Cobb is aligned similar to Belkar--to the point where Belkar could be his "mini-me"-- and is absolutely the best character on Firefly/Serenity.)
Really? Could you name one occasion on which Jayne Cobb has murdered someone for no other reason than avoiding having to walk some place? Heck, you can a plausible argument that late-series/Serenity Jayne was CN or TN. Belkar's not even playing in the same league.

The fact Jayne sold out River and Simon kinda tends to ignore the fact that HE GOT STABBED BY RIVER WITH A BUTCHER'S KNIFE, and that both are wanted fugitives who could land both him and everyone aboard Serenity in deep trouble. Jayne's motives may have been selfish, but his analysis wasn't wrong. He didn't betray his crew, he betrayed the Tams. Whatever Mal may feel about it, there is a difference.

Jayne has done a few things that would have to be considered more-or-less evil over the series, but he also risked his neck to save Mal from Niska, and performed at least one unequivocally good act in Serenity. He sends money home to his family and shows signs of latent guilt or sympathy on occasion. He is NOT a bloodthirsty psychopath who lives only to inflict pain on others, and comparisons to Belkar are both inapt and uncalled-for.

Yes, the Belkster has quasi-inadvertantly saved the Order's bacon on one or two occasions, because his bloodlust fixation de jure miraculously happened to coincide with the Order's best interests at that particular time. There are also a heap of examples of him sabotaging the Order's plans and endangering all their lives through short-sighted, self-indulgent killing-sprees in defiance of direct orders. And yes, his severe impulse-control problems have miraculously prevented him from switching sides so far, but relying on this indefinitely out of a misplaced sense of loyalty which he has done nothing sincere to deserve is what I would call Lawful Stupid behaviour.

Yes, Belkar can be funny as hell, but that's not going to make me like him any better as a person.

[Calmness]

Belkar hasn't betrayed the party for 600 strips. I don't know about you people but that has got to count for something. "But Belkar was going to join Tsukiko!" you might say, well guess what, he didn't accept her offer. "Belkar wants to leave the order!!" He hasn't, and has given no signs of even planning to do so. You might try spinning the events as much as you want but the fact remains that every single time he has had a chance to turn on the order he refused to do so. Every single time. What does that say to you about his loyalty?

No really, how many times must Belkar prove himself?

He is one of the most useful members of the order by the way, Haley ditching him will only lead to more trouble later in the story. Heck many people have been saying Haley should have had the cleric remove his curse and now she has to fight horribly outnumbered because she refused to do so. Some meatshield there would be helpful, wouldn't it?:smallcool:

[Querzis]

Belkar hasn't betrayed the party for 600 strips. I don't know about you people but that has got to count for something. "But Belkar was going to join Tsukiko!" you might say, well guess what, he didn't accept her offer. "Belkar wants to leave the order!!" He hasn't, and has given no signs of even planning to do so. You might try spinning the events as much as you want but the fact remains that every single time he has had a chance to turn on the order he refused to do so. Every single time. What does that say to you about his loyalty?

No really, how many times must Belkar prove himself?

He is one of the most useful members of the order by the way, Haley ditching him will only lead to more trouble later in the story. Heck many people have been saying Haley should have had the cleric remove his curse and now she has to fight horribly outnumbered because she refused to do so. Some meatshield there would be helpful, wouldn't it?:smallcool:

Oh boy, I really hope you're being sarcastic but, from my previous argument with Belkar fans and the infamous «Belkar is chaotic good» threads, I assume you're just being delusionnal.

Ok, so you think hes loyal to the order and also the most usefull member of the party. Let me remind you a few parts from the comic:

Belkar loyalty:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0124.html Hes ready to kill his teammates for XP
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0125.html And the only reason he doesnt is because they can kick his ass and later the only reason he doesnt is because of the Mark of justice...but for some weird reason you seem to think he wont betray them if the cleric get rid of the mark of justice? What comic have you been reading?
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0139.html He doesnt want to help Roy, he just wanna kill giants.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0322.html Trying to kill a teammates...again
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html Belkar doesnt object killing ALL of his teammates as long as he get to keep the magic items.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0520.html Would have betrayed them if not for Mr.Scruffy
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0521.html Would have betrayed them regardless of Mr.Scruffy if he had realized Xykon can get rid of the Mark

Regardless of how much you like Belkar, I just dont get how anyone could think that he woudnt betray them if he manage to get rid of the Mark of Justice...

Belkar usefullness:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0043.html Yeah Belkar is a really good tracker.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0107.html What kind of brain-dead moron could do that? Well you Belkar.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0124.html Trying to kill his teammates apply to both loyalty and usefullness really
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0157.html Get the entire party captured by setting a tent on fire and they would all have been killed without Roy and Durkon.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0241.html Get the inn on fire even if some of his teammates are in it
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0322.html trying to kill a teammates...again.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html He got an abysmall will save if Nale could charm him
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html Killed the Oracle before he could answer their questions.

Now his usefullness is less in question then his loyalty since he is, after all, a really good fighter. But he still get everyone else almost dead way too often, especially since sometimes its him who try to kill them directly. Beside, he has absolutely no use outside of combat.


Now I would talk and show comic about his evilness but I hope at least you arent delusional to the point of thinking hes a good guy...right?

Now I got nothing against people who like Belkar despite all that. But delusionnal people who twist everything we saw in the comic just to favor their favorite character (regardless of if its Belkar or anyone else...but most of the time its Belkar) just really annoy me.

[hamishspence]

if we go back to Origin- we see him decide what he will do, if he ever decides to attack party (delay to end of initiative order)

[EvilElitest]

Better than Inara? No way.

And speaking of Inara, I'll be in my bunk.

(I played a fighter a couple of campaigns ago who unintentionally ended up being very similar in temperament to Jayne. That line got quoted a lot. Even though I'd decided that the character was actually asexual.)

what is this reference too?
from
EE

[Werewolf]

Belkar loyalty:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0124.html Hes ready to kill his teammates for XP
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0125.html And the only reason he doesnt is because they can kick his ass and later the only reason he doesnt is because of the Mark of justice...but for some weird reason you seem to think he wont betray them if the cleric get rid of the mark of justice? What comic have you been reading?
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0139.html He doesnt want to help Roy, he just wanna kill giants.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0322.html Trying to kill a teammates...again
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html Belkar doesnt object killing ALL of his teammates as long as he get to keep the magic items.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0520.html Would have betrayed them if not for Mr.Scruffy
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0521.html Would have betrayed them regardless of Mr.Scruffy if he had realized Xykon can get rid of the Mark


He's ready to kill them - but doesn't.
He doesn't want to help Roy - but does.
Trying to kill a teammate - but doesn't.
He doesn't object to killing them - while under the influence of a charm spell. Doesn't kill them anyway.
Would have betrayed them - but didn't.
Ditto.

Sorry, the point was? Belkar keeps saying that he wants to kill them, betray them, etc, he just never gets round to it?

[Shatteredtower]

Belkar hasn't betrayed the party for 600 strips.

Trying to kill a party member for the XP is a betrayal. Having it pointed out that the party can then turn around and do the same thing to him doesn't change that fact.

Revealing the party's location to an enemy because he wants to set something on fire over the objections of other party members is a betrayal.

Having the openly stated goal of killing two members of his own party members is a betrayal.


I don't know about you people but that has got to count for something. "But Belkar was going to join Tsukiko!" you might say, well guess what, he didn't accept her offer.

For the clearly stated reason that he hadn't thought it through, and nothing more than that. He tried to change his mind once he knew what it could get him, only to learn that wasn't an option any longer.

In other words, he'd have accepted the offer if he'd understood it. He'd also have accepted it if he hadn't had access to a cat.


"Belkar wants to leave the order!!" He hasn't, and has given no signs of even planning to do so.

Well, ignoring the fact that he can't, there's also the fact that he hasn't murdered either V or Roy yet. That's hardly an inspirational reason for having someone stay with the team.


You might try spinning the events as much as you want...

By stating the facts you've omitted from the examples cited above? No, the only one guilty of spin here is you.


What does that say to you about his loyalty?

Nothing at all. Once you take away all the spin, you're left with a guy who hopes to kill at least two party members, and who has tried to kill two others. When he helps out, it's only because it coincides with his interests in killing or antagonizing other people (who he isn't always shown to think of as anything more than chunks of xp or sources of profit) or his own personal entertainment.

At best, he's in it for personal aggrandizement: this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0455.html) being little more than a chance to make up for the opportunity missed here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0042.html) -- with a bigger body count.


He is one of the most useful members of the order by the way...

After Roy and Haley, of course, the two most likely to get things done. And V and Durkon, since the spellpower has proven very useful. And let's not forget Elan's contributions, though he tends to work best with careful guidance from one of the aforementioned characters.

But after all of them, Belkar is most certainly the most useful party member. Why, if it wasn't for his tracking skills and spellcasting abilities... uh... Oh, hey, how about the way he protected the spellcasters during the first assault on Xykon? Uh... how about the way he kicked Miko in the head after Roy brought her down?


Haley ditching him will only lead to more trouble later in the story.

Only in the sense that keeping Belkar alive will lead to more trouble later.


Heck many people have been saying Haley should have had the cleric remove his curse and now she has to fight horribly outnumbered because she refused to do so. Some meatshield there would be helpful, wouldn't it?:smallcool:

Maybe, but is it worth opening the homicidal genie's bottle? Haley's history with Belkar tells her it's not.

[Calmness]

That's funny. He didn't kill anyone in any of Querzi's examples, most of it was Belkar just talking about it but never actually doing it, which was the point of my post. Had he stabbed Elan i would agree with you. The only ones he came close to it was when he was being mind controlled and when he threw V against an owlbear, and that was because V played some pretty nasty (and dangerous) tricks on him befgore (fire toilet? ouch!). They both seem to like playing rough.

Delusional? where did i say Belkar is a good guy? I said he was useful and mistreated by some of the comic characters. You think Belkar isn't useful, did you read the first two examples i posted at the beginning of the comic? I got them just by glancing at the archives, and i'm sure he has done much more than that. He made some wrong calls and has a pretty low WIS score but everybody makes mistakes, even Roy. Hell, i'm pretty sure Elan has screwed up worse than him and he is one of the more popular characters.

[hamishspence]

yes, V could be argued as having began it all with Crushing despair. Maybe delayed revenge for being abandoned in the middle of pack of ghasts?

[Shatteredtower]

He's ready to kill them - but doesn't.

Only because he was certain to come out behind on that deal, getting killed in turn.


He doesn't want to help Roy - but does.

No, he doesn't. By the end of the arc, he hasn't actually done a thing to help Roy.


Trying to kill a teammate - but doesn't.

Failing in his objective doesn't change the fact that it was his objective. V only survived because someone else managed to rescue him -- not because Belkar was pulling his pushes.


He doesn't object to killing them - while under the influence of a charm spell.

You have misstated the case here: the charm spell only allows Nale to direct Belkar to kill his teammates because Belkar has no objections to doing so.


Doesn't kill them anyway.

Because they prevented him from doing so. Again, failure doesn't make the attempt irrelevant.


Would have betrayed them - but didn't.

Failing to think the consequences of his decisions -- and obviously regretting the missed opportunity -- doesn't change the fact that he'd have done it.


Sorry, the point was?

The point is that the party's lucky Belkar is incompetent. Otherwise, he'd have done a lot more damage to them than he already has. As it is, Shojo's odds of still being alive and Xykon's odds of being destroyed once and for all would have been significantly higher if the halfling had been cut loose after the party left the Dungeon of Durokan.

[Querzis]

He's ready to kill them - but doesn't.
He doesn't want to help Roy - but does.
Trying to kill a teammate - but doesn't.
He doesn't object to killing them - while under the influence of a charm spell. Doesn't kill them anyway.
Would have betrayed them - but didn't.
Ditto.

Sorry, the point was? Belkar keeps saying that he wants to kill them, betray them, etc, he just never gets round to it?

...So we are judging people on efficiency? Yes Belkar never managed to kill or betray them. Honestly I dont get your point. Are you trying to prove that Belkar is incompetent (if thats what you want to do, you succeeded). Does that mean you think anyone who did an attempted murder should get away with it because he failed?

Well, amaranthine and werewolf, at that point I just think you're hopeless so whatever. If one of your friends try to kill you only to be stopped by four policeman, which is pretty much what happened in the Elan example, have fun arguing he didnt betray you and shoudnt be punished for his action.

Oh and by the way, I think you should go read what a charm spells does. A betrayal under a charm spell is a betrayal anyway. People are not accountable for their action with domination but not charm. Nale coudnt have forced anyone else to betray the party with a charm spell.

[Shatteredtower]

That's funny. He didn't kill anyone in any of Querzi's examples...

Failure does not change the fact that the attempt was made. That's all that matters in this case.


You think Belkar isn't useful...

Well, let's see...

He got half the party captured by bandits.

He pushed the conflict between Miko and the Order to a disastrous level that eventually resulted in Shojo's death and the crippling of Azure City's ability to defend itself against a hobgoblin invasion.

He killed the Oracle, thwarting Haley's efforts to revive Roy in a timely fashion.

You're right: he's not useless. Overall, he's a major hindrance.

And I find him a very entertaining one.

[Calmness]

Trying to kill a party member for the XP is a betrayal. Having it pointed out that the party can then turn around and do the same thing to him doesn't change that fact.

Revealing the party's location to an enemy because he wants to set something on fire over the objections of other party members is a betrayal.

Having the openly stated goal of killing two members of his own party members is a betrayal.

He didn't kill the party member did he? he hasn't even come close to. If he really was going to kill Elan Belkar would be dead and i know Roy isn't dumb enough to travel with someone like that. The second one is a mistake made by him and every single trigger-happy barbarian. He didn't like Haley's methods and he chose a different one, it was a mistake.


For the clearly stated reason that he hadn't thought it through, and nothing more than that. He tried to change his mind once he knew what it could get him, only to learn that wasn't an option any longer.

In other words, he'd have accepted the offer if he'd understood it. He'd also have accepted it if he hadn't had access to a cat.

Yeah, he has also said he wants to kill V and Roy and hasn't gone through with it despite having multiple opportunities of doing it, if he really is that much of a bastard. I don't trust anything Belkar says, you do.


By stating the facts you've omitted from the examples cited above? No, the only one guilty of spin here is you.

Belkar hasn't killed any of his fellow party member's in 600 comics, how is that not a fact? And if he has always been that dangerous why didn't Roy kill him?


Nothing at all.
Ah, ok. Let's ignore all the good Belkar has done for the Order because of his motivations. It reminds me of Miko in a way, who wanted to killl Belkar just because he was evil, and the order defended him back then because he was helpful. He has saved them at least a couple of times, you can't ignore that.


Maybe, but is it worth opening the homicidal genie's bottle? Haley's history with Belkar tells her it's not.

Eh, curing him from his curse and telling him to go kill some thieves doesn't seem too difficult. Controlling him afterwards would be the problem but if he is weakened enough it shouldn't be too hard.

[Calmness]

You're right: he's not useless. Overall, he's a major hindrance.


Without Belkar the party would be dead. The two comics in my first post prove that.

[hamishspence]

and both times, Down in the Dungeon. Party member V has saved Belkar's life too.

[Calmness]

Yeah i was answering the post that said he is a hindrance, and to the people that have said Belkar should be killed or abandoned.

[hamishspence]

I figure he has Been helpful, but since leaving dungeon, Help moments have gotten rarer and Hindrance moments have gotten commoner.

Sometimes Hindrance moments have been brought on themselves: setting off lots of Runes on him guaranteees when time comes, he sits back and watches Whack-a-Wizard.

[Calmness]

Well, i think i'm done. I put my arguments and if people don't agree with them fine. I'll still answer some posts later.

[Talya]

We need the sexy shoeless god of war back.

[hamishspence]

"Do you want to be the one to tell him he probably won't get any XP from them?"

[Samurai Jill]

But after all of them, Belkar is most certainly the most useful party member. Why, if it wasn't for his tracking skills and spellcasting abilities... uh... Oh, hey, how about the way he protected the spellcasters during the first assault on Xykon? Uh... how about the way he kicked Miko in the head after Roy brought her down?
That was hilarious.

[Alair]

Ah, ok. Let's ignore all the good Belkar has done for the Order because of his motivations. It reminds me of Miko in a way, who wanted to killl Belkar just because he was evil, and the order defended him back then because he was helpful. He has saved them at least a couple of times, you can't ignore that.

Um, pardon? Miko wanted to kill Belkar because he murdered a guard and then wrote a message in his blood calling her out.

[Kish]

And if he has always been that dangerous why didn't Roy kill him?

Roy is about as far from infallible as you can get--without reaching Elan or Belkar, anyway. Citing "Roy didn't do X, therefore X doesn't need doing" doesn't work.

[Querzis]

Guys at this point I'm pretty damn sure hes a troll. He had me going for a while but I just dont think its possible to interpret the event of the comic that way no matter how delusionnal you are.


He didn't kill the party member did he? he hasn't even come close to. If he really was going to kill Elan Belkar would be dead.

So you think Belkar was kidding? Wow hes such a good trickster. He even went as far as to imagine Elan as a chunk of XP to make the reader believe he was serious. Yup, it got nothing to do with the simple fact that Elan was running away from him.


and i know Roy isn't dumb enough to travel with someone like that.

Oh so when Roy said to the deva that he realize Belkar is evil but prefer to use him as a chasing dog (while keeping on a short leash) then slit his troat in his sleep, he was kidding too? Yeah that make sense, Roy is known for lying to source of authority for absolutely no reason.


The second one is a mistake made by him and every single trigger-happy barbarian. He didn't like Haley's methods and he chose a different one, it was a mistake.

Yes which is why I list it under his usefullness. Wait I think I get your point. It doesnt matter how much times Belkar almost get everyone killed as long as some other people in the world could have done the same thing as him? Wow, you're totally right, I wonder why I never saw it that way before.


Yeah, he has also said he wants to kill V and Roy and hasn't gone through with it despite having multiple opportunities of doing it, if he really is that much of a bastard.

Multiple opportunity to do it? Belkar is kinda stupid sometimes but really not suicidal. Oh wait, you must mean the imaginary strips where Belkar didnt had the Mark of justice anymore and was alone with one of them very far away from the rest of the Order with some major tactical advantage since even alone Roy or V would have really good chance against him? Yeah I loved those imaginary strips too.



Belkar hasn't killed any of his fellow party member's in 600 comics, how is that not a fact?

You're right, the fact that he tried at least three times and showed the intention of killing the rest multiple times means absolutely nothing as long as he dont succeed. Because, after all, the Giant got nothing better to do then let Belkar kill one member of the Order just to show the very few brain dead people who havent guessed by now that he would do it.


And if he has always been that dangerous why didn't Roy kill him?

I think he explained it very well in that strip: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html Oh but wait, I forgot, Roy was kidding right? Obviously Roy doesnt really think Belkar would become a recurring villain if left alone and doesnt consider himself his Head Warden!


Ah, ok. Let's ignore all the good Belkar has done for the Order because of his motivations.

Sure motivation are useless. After all, if someone would help me in a fight not out of loyalty or because hes a good guy but because he wanna slaughter all of them out of fun, I would immediatly trust him and become his best friend!


It reminds me of Miko in a way, who wanted to killl Belkar just because he was evil, and the order defended him back then because he was helpful. He has saved them at least a couple of times, you can't ignore that.

Alair answered that... though I have to add that V said specifically that he defended Belkar because he hate Miko even more. Oh but wait, he was kidding too right?

Really guys, its obvious hes a troll at this point. That or hes actually just reading another comic thats also called the Order of the Stick and got the same characters though they act differently.

[Spiky]

what is this reference too?
from
EE

Firefly TV series & Serenity movie. Half this thread is about it.

[Spiky]

Well, i think i'm done. I put my arguments and if people don't agree with them fine. I'll still answer some posts later.

This tangential argument about Belkar's usefulness has been very silly on both sides. Both sides are trying to pidgeonhole the Belkar character with brief moments from the comic. Well, that just doesn't work because the comic has been around awhile and Rich's characters are too well developed. And because humor (frequently provided by Belkar's antics) trumps plot and other, more serious things very frequently in the comic.

Your original question was answered best in post #38. To sum up: Roy was in charge and controlled/accepted Belkar in one way, but he is currently out of the picture. Haley is in charge of Belkar now and is not of the same opinion (about Belkar) as Roy. And with her new awareness of the true MoJ situation, you may see even more against Belkar. But as that post pointed out, everything she has done is totally in character. <<--- Not saying you have to approve, but this is the answer to your question about why Belkar is being treated as he is.


If G could pull it off with good hilarity, I'd love to next see a little halfling shield/vomiting/fighting action, with Belkar playing the part of the Eye of Fear & Flame from earlier. Although it would make a mess. And SOMEbody's got to clean up. ***cough*Celia**cough**

I think Bozzak would look good covered in more green.

I might add....Belkar seems to be your favorite OOTS character. But don't let it slip into the real world. The ends DO NOT always justify the means, and we don't live in the D&D world.

[hamishspence]

And, if you accept what WOTC has to say in some of their supplements (some don't) the ends don't justify the means in the D&D verse either.

[Werewolf]

...So we are judging people on efficiency? Yes Belkar never managed to kill or betray them. Honestly I dont get your point. Are you trying to prove that Belkar is incompetent (if thats what you want to do, you succeeded). Does that mean you think anyone who did an attempted murder should get away with it because he failed?

No, I was pointing out that despite repeatedly stating his desire to kill them and betray them, Belkar has never actually done so. He's an opposite of the classical villain: instead of justifying his evil deeds by self deception and claiming it's for the greater good (as Miko does repeatedly), he justifies his travelling with the OOTS and his ultimately good deeds by continously emphasising his evil:
- I refused Tsukiko, but only to throw a cat in her face.
- I need to prevent Hinjo getting killed, but only because I have a duty to the greater evil.
- I follow Roy around and (generally) follow his orders, but only because I get to kill things.
- I didn't kill Elan, but only because everyone threatened me.
- I saved the order several times, but only because it was fun.
... and so on.

Don't get me wrong, he does commit various crimes and immoral actions (killing the guard, the gnome, the oracle etc.) but generally not against the members of the order. He is evil, but maybe he just likes them?

[evileeyore]

- I saved the order several times, but only because it was fun.

When was this? I've never seen Belkar be anything other than a useless hinderance to the party.

[hamishspence]

Way back in dungeon when party was rendered effectively useless by Unholy blight, Belkar saved the party.

[Querzis]

When was this? I've never seen Belkar be anything other than a useless hinderance to the party.

Amaranthine gave two examples. Of course, since hes a troll, his example dont really mean anything:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html Here its not the Order but Elan and its not really Belkar who save him but V. V just used belkar as a tool to save Elan.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html Here for some reason, he seems to assume that single cleric could have defeated the entire party without Belkar help...Unholy blight is annoying but not THAT strong. Especially if that guy could be killed with just one attack with a freaking dagger (its probably his rod that could do unholy blight not him).

I think thats it.


- I refused Tsukiko, but only to throw a cat in her face.
- I need to prevent Hinjo getting killed, but only because I have a duty to the greater evil.
- I follow Roy around and (generally) follow his orders, but only because I get to kill things.
- I didn't kill Elan, but only because everyone threatened me.
- I saved the order several times, but only because it was fun.
... and so on.

Yeah so as I already explained in my post where I realize Amaranthine is a troll, if you honestly think Belkar was kidding, you just arent reading the same comic as me. Hell, your example with Hinjo is definitly the worse one. What, he as a long monologue with his two littles devils just to confuse the audience into thinking he was kidding? He had a perfectly good reason to save Hinjo from an evil perspective.

Please remember that Belkar is not freaking suicidal and that doing any of those would result in the Order kicking his ass. Especially after he get the MoJ. It aint that freaking complicated.

[LuisDantas]

She even went as far as to say he is a liability despite Belkar having saved the Order at least (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html) twice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html).

Those were early, more tongue-in-cheek strips. Belkar did not really change all that much, but in these more serious days it is harder to gloss over his loose cannon nature.



And please don't tell me Belkar can't be trusted. He has had a hundred opportunities to turn on the Order and still chooses to stay loyal.

It's more like he did not have a strong incentive to cross the line yet, really. He threatened to kill Vaarsuvius, confessed to being tempted to kill the Order for minor benefits, and just barely decided not to betray Roy during the Azure City siege. He IS a liability.


Heck, he and Elan are the only ones still happy to be on the team, with everyone else being disgusted with each other.

Not really. Durkon and Haley (and Roy) want to reunite the Order at least as much as Belkar does. The only exception is Vaarsuvius.



Sorry about the rant, it's just a bit sad to see what was a fun character being treated badly by his "allies".

I don't see how it could be avoided, however. Not without either putting Belkar through some serious character development (which will probably make him less fun) or returning to the gag format of earlier strips.

[Werewolf]

(Disclaimer: I am going to continue with my thesis of Belkar never having actually betrayed any of the OOTS, despite repeatedly claiming to intend to do so. If you find that this is wrong and cannot allow for the possibility of an opinion different than yours, please feel free to mentally label me as a troll as well and ignore my posts.)


if you honestly think Belkar was kidding, you just arent reading the same comic as me

Oh gods, I don't think he was kidding, I think it's a clever literary ploy where Belkar, despite being evil with evil intentions ends up doing good - polar opposite of a character like Miko, who uses self-deception to justify evil acts. In fact, in order to have some of Belkar's actions explained away as 'evil' feats of mental gymnastics are necessary. The strip where he's having an argument with two little shoulder devils is a perfect illustration.


He had a perfectly good reason to save Hinjo from an evil perspective

A perfectly good reason? It's the most convoluted piece of reasoning ever!

Just as Miko was a caricature of how some people tend to (badly) role-play lawful good (Paladins especially), Belkar looks to be a take on how one can try and wedge in a supposedly chaotic evil character into a good-aligned party.

[evileeyore]

Way back in dungeon when party was rendered effectively useless by Unholy blight, Belkar saved the party.

I hope you aren't equating being Sickened for 1-4 rounds as "rendered effectively useless".


Sigh, you are aren't you. :annoyed: Look, while a -2 is a pretty big hinderance (especially at lower levels and they were in the 8-10s back then) it did not "render them effectively useless", just somewhat reduced.

They needed no saving, however it did open the door to a decent joke.


Amaranthine gave two examples. Of course, since hes a troll, his example dont really mean anything:

However in responding to the "saved the party on several occasions" I was asking for several examples of saving the party not "two examples of not being a useless dead weight dragging the party down".

I know you get this, I'm clarifying for the Belkar Apologists. :smallwink:



Don't get me wrong, dead weight humor is funny. But once the story progressed beyond 1 Liners into meatier Cerebus territory... Belkar started becoming less and less some one to keep around and became more and more someone to leave in a jail that could hold him.





Just as Miko was a caricature of how some people tend to (badly) role-play lawful good (Paladins especially), Belkar looks to be a take on how one can try and wedge in a supposedly chaotic evil character into a good-aligned party.

That is it exactly. And just like Miko, his time has come to an end.

I hope Belkar has an appropriately funny/evil moment as he slides into oblivion. I also wouldn't mind seeing what Belkar's "reward" is awaiting him in the afterlife. Maybe kicking puppies and lighting Paladins on fire. :smallwink:

[hamishspence]

its highly probable they didn't need saving. They looked pretty distressed though. It was, however, a very early strip.

[Koshiro]

"Belkar hate" is just Belkar getting the consequences of his actions. I also think that, while some of his one-liners are funny, random violence is not - it gets oooooold quickly.
Moral preachiness gets old more quickly.

Look, I don't "like" Belkar as in "if he were real, I'd like to be friends with him". I like him, or used to like him, as a character in a comic book.
Nowadays, the refreshing anarchy he used to insert into the comic is spoiled by annoying "Belkar is evil! Being evil is bad for you, mmmkay?" I don't like it.

Put another way...


Those were early, more tongue-in-cheek strips. Belkar did not really change all that much, but in these more serious days it is harder to gloss over his loose cannon nature.
I don't like these "more serious days". I have enough "more serious days" IRL, thank you. :smallannoyed:

[Querzis]

Oh gods, I don't think he was kidding, I think it's a clever literary ploy where Belkar, despite being evil with evil intentions ends up doing good - polar opposite of a character like Miko, who uses self-deception to justify evil acts. In fact, in order to have some of Belkar's actions explained away as 'evil' feats of mental gymnastics are necessary. The strip where he's having an argument with two little shoulder devils is a perfect illustration.

Well at least now I finally see your point and partially agree with it, you should have said it like that in the first place. But really, it doesnt make it good acts by any stretch of imagination. Look if a guy kill a little girl out of fun but the little girl turn out to be a demon in disguise who was about to destroy a village, what he did was still evil anyway. And here I'm not talking about intentions, I also think intentions really dont matter as much as actions when talking about good and evil. I'm talking about accident, like when you had absolutely no intention of doing something but ends up doing it anyway. The strip with Tsukiko is a perfect example. What is Belkar intention? Throwing a cat in someone face. What is Belkar action? He throw mister Scruffy in Tsukiko face. What did he also do when he did that even though that was not his intention and woudnt really matter to him either way? He stayed with the Order and didnt join Team Evil. Its not because Belkar evil actions sometimes end up having good repercussion that it change anything.


A perfectly good reason? It's the most convoluted piece of reasoning ever!

Yeah sure. Getting rid of the MoJ isnt as important as seeing Hinjo die. After all, the MoJ didnt greatly limit Belkar fighting ability and free will these last months and its definitly not the reason why Belkar is currently suffering like hell without being able to move a finger. Beside, its not like Belkar was right when he assumed only Hinjo could get rid of the mark since there is absolutely no passwords that keep any other cleric from getting rid of it...oh wait.


Just as Miko was a caricature of how some people tend to (badly) role-play lawful good (Paladins especially), Belkar looks to be a take on how one can try and wedge in a supposedly chaotic evil character into a good-aligned party.

Well yeah, thats the point. Thats also what I said in my first post. The problem is that this comic is not just about parodying D&D anymore. While a guy like Belkar got his place in a good team if the story is nothing more then a D&D parody, OOTS is so much more then that now to the point that lots people who read this comic never even played D&D!


Moral preachiness gets old more quickly.

Its not moral preachiness man. Belkar antics really get old quickly for me but its not because he try to kill everyone. Xykon does the same thing and it never got old as far as I'm concerned, you know why? Because, with the deathtraps, the ball of insanity, the flying zombies and all his experimentation with death and pain, Xykon is actually original and interesting when he kill or torture everyone. Belkar, on the other hand, is just stabbity-stabbity-stab. It really get old, at least for me.

[hamishspence]

I thought, at least for short time, that Belkar's Ways Around The Mark, when dealing with V, were marginally funnier than stabbity stab.

[Starbuck_II]

I'm still waiting for a Belkartown (like Jayne's Town)

[Warren Dew]

Not really. Durkon and Haley (and Roy) want to reunite the Order at least as much as Belkar does. The only exception is Vaarsuvius.

Actually, Durkon thinks it's long past time to change plans (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0505.html) and give up on reuniting the order. Vaarsuvius was the one who kept trying to reunite the order for much longer.


Just as Miko was a caricature of how some people tend to (badly) role-play lawful good (Paladins especially), Belkar looks to be a take on how one can try and wedge in a supposedly chaotic evil character into a good-aligned party.

Miko illustrated a perfectly valid way of roleplaying a paladin, as illustrated by her many fans. That particular character type is fine when acting solo; it's when a player tries to wedge it into a more pragmatic party that's annoying.

[hamishspence]

Its more old style- 1st few editions of D&D up to 3rd ed. In 3.5 Smite Makes Right began to be countered by various writers.

[FatJose]

"What have you done for me lately?"

Those examples of Belkar helping happened a long time ago. He's already done enough bad for the team to completely prove himself worthless to the team or just too evil to be allowed in their group anymore. The second strip that shows Belkar being helpful is also not a very good example. He saved Elan and Durkon from death, but he wasn't really Belkar. That Owl's Wisdom somehow shifted his alignment to Chaotic Good and turned him into a halfling who cares about his friends and who actually enjoys healing the wounded. That is not Belkar at all. Also, he wants to see everybody dead, including the people of his village, for little reason or provocation. His only reason for not doing it is because he has enough sense to not put himself in a situation that ends with him dead. Unfortunately, he has no respect for Haley.

Let's see what Haley has against her.

- Shady class and alignment which seems to cause Belkar to have the assumption that the rules are more lax now.

- Lower AB and HP, so Belkar knows he doesnt have much to fear in regard to physical punishment as he did with the greatsword wielding fighter and Sneak Attack is harder to pull off in a one on one fight.

- She is essentially alone and Celia isn't much help since she is so non-violent. Belkar knows she needs him.

Haley was going to abandon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0570.html) him after he killed the oracle but they forgot that he did it in the first place, so she kept him around out of pity. After learning that he had been sick because he killed someone during their stay at the Oracle, she decided to let him stew.

If he hadn't killed the oracle they would have known how to get to Durkon, they wouldn't have ended up in Greysky and Belkar would still be able to fight outside of cities.

The reason for all the Belkar hate is simple, he's hate-worthy. He's vile scum. Even "evil" characters, or atleast the ones that hang with the good guys, either have a common goal and dont try so hard to derail everything or have good qualities or emotions for others that cause them to be more "human" but Belkar is almost devoid of it. The only people he's ever actually liked were Shojo and the cat.

[ericgrau]

Belkar's always been an awesome character and it'll be a shame to see him go (and I think it will be soon).

Thing is, early in the comic there was always some kind of circumstances that kept him from doing anything overly bad. So much that I wondered if he really was evil beyond a little comedic effect. Probably the real reason why he wasn't so bad was b/c the circumstances provided by Rich kept Belkar from ruining the plot (see: attempt to kill Elan for xp). This mitigation continued even when Miko came in. I think that the Azure city guard is the first creature I've seen him actually kill in cold blood. And ever since they left Azure city, he's been so successfuly kill-happy and hated he almost seems out of character compared to before. Belkar in OoPCs likewise surprised me. And while that's before the start of the comic in the time line, I'm sure it was written some time in the middle of the comic.

IMO the recent elevation in evil and character hate to Belkar is a prep for his imminent death. I don't like it so much, especially since it seems forced. I think it'd be cool - though somewhat cliche - for him do do something mildly but honestly good right before going.

[evileeyore]

Miko illustrated a perfectly valid way of roleplaying a paladin, as illustrated by her many fans. That particular character type is fine when acting solo; it's when a player tries to wedge it into a more pragmatic party that's annoying.

Yup, just as Belkarites do not fit in a less morally flexible party.

[Roderick_BR]

To be fair, the group never liked him much to start with :smalltongue:
Haley just happen to not have the same sort of attitude that Roy have to keep Belkar in check. Roy just grunfs away with his sarcastic remarks. Haley is trying to "teach Belkar a lesson", without knowing exactly how to do it.

[nybbler]

Belkar didn't kill the Azure City guard in cold blood. He killed him (or was it her?) in the course of an escape from capture by an enemy. Perhaps not "good", but not "evil" either.

He arranged to have the Lawful Good Kobold killed because said Kobold was actively trying to kill him. Nothing evil there either.

He killed Grand Larceny Guy to prevent him from killing Hinjo. His actual motiviations were base, but his actions in that incident were not at all evil.

Poor Belkar. Just because he's CE, he gets blamed for EVERY little thing he does that no one would blink an eye at if another character had done it. If Roy had been in the non-anti-magic section, jumped out, and killed the guard, would anyone blame him for it? If Elan had been chased by Yok-Yok and maneuvered a group of adventurers into dealing with him, would we not be praising him for his uncharacteristic quick thinking? If Haley had shot Grand Larceny Guy, would we have objected? I don't think so.

[Querzis]

Poor Belkar. Just because he's CE, he gets blamed for EVERY little thing he does that no one would blink an eye at if another character had done it. If Roy had been in the non-anti-magic section, jumped out, and killed the guard, would anyone blame him for it?

I would. If Roy would have done that, he would definitly not be one of my favorite character anymore because of how incredibly out of character that would have been. I would also probably woudnt like the comic as much because it would be very poor writing to have a LG hero do that.

By the way, I dont remember anyone blaming Belkar for the two other thing you said. Sure some people mentioned Grand Larceny guy but what was important is why he did it, no one is blaming him for actually doing it. I could be wrong but anyway, it sure as hell isnt two really important thing.

[David Argall]

Belkar didn't kill the Azure City guard in cold blood. He killed him (or was it her?) in the course of an escape from capture by an enemy. Perhaps not "good", but not "evil" either.
Evil. Perhaps not as evil as possible, but still evil. Calling the law the enemy is not that inaccurate, but one can generally expect to survive dealing with the law, and so killing to escape is at least suspect. Now while Belkar's grapple is rather low for his level, the presumption is that his guard is a low level mook, and thus Belkar does not need to kill him to escape, so he is on moral difficulty on that point too.


He arranged to have the Lawful Good Kobold killed because said Kobold was actively trying to kill him. Nothing evil there either.
The kobold's alignment was unstated, tho unimportant. But Belkar offered extra coin for extra pain for the kobold, which is evil. More important, he was not being truely threatened by the kobold. The kobold was certainly trying, but Belkar ends the encounter unwounded, and at times seems to be almost playing with him. It is not evil to kill what you have to, but it is when you kill what you don't.


He killed Grand Larceny Guy to prevent him from killing Hinjo. His actual motiviations were base, but his actions in that incident were not at all evil.
He killed GLG only after the threat to Hinjo was over, and in a situation where he was effectively harmless, if indeed not highly useful.


If Roy had been in the non-anti-magic section, jumped out, and killed the guard, would anyone blame him for it?
Yes, even more so since we expect Roy to be good at grapple.


If Elan had been chased by Yok-Yok and maneuvered a group of adventurers into dealing with him, would we not be praising him for his uncharacteristic quick thinking?
We would be astonished, but would expect him to do it by non-lethal means.


If Haley had shot Grand Larceny Guy, would we have objected?
We would not have objected to her shooting to prevent GLG from shooting, but would if she tried to shoot him as he fell from the wall.

[hamishspence]

I could be wrong, but didn't Grand Larceny Guy just commit attempted murder, and treason. and didn't you say earlier, that A CG person can kill someone who "deserves to die" without alignment problems?

Belkar certainly isn't CG, but why is Belkar doing it Wrong, V doing it Right? Motives? Didn't you also say it doesn't matter what motives are, if person deserves to die, killing them isn't Evil?

[evileeyore]

I could be wrong, but didn't Grand Larceny Guy just commit attempted murder, and treason. and didn't you say earlier, that A CG person can kill someone who "deserves to die" without alignment problems?

Actually GLG committee the thought crimes of Treason and Attmpted Assassination... Belkar interrupted this by grappling him off the wall.

Then, after successfully foiling the scheme, Belkar murdered him.

Also, committing a slightly or fully Evil act for an Evil individual doesnot constitute Alignment problems.


Belkar certainly isn't CG, but why is Belkar doing it Wrong, V doing it Right? Motives? Didn't you also say it doesn't matter what motives are, if person deserves to die, killing them isn't Evil?

Vaarsuvius was most certianly in the wrong. But one Evil act does not make one Evil.

[Querzis]

Belkar certainly isn't CG, but why is Belkar doing it Wrong, V doing it Right? Motives? Didn't you also say it doesn't matter what motives are, if person deserves to die, killing them isn't Evil?

Because David though a long time ago that V was probably Chaotic good since hes an elf (seriously, hes been saying that for age). And David never change his opinions no matter what. Its not that complicated.

[FatJose]

Not only did he only save Hinjo so that the possibility of him getting that curse removed didn't disappear. Really, it only makes him unable to kill people within cities. For him to be that pissed, he must have been planning on killing LOTS of civilians since it doesn't really stop him from dungeon crawling. He saved Hinjo so he could continue killing innocents after the curse was removed. He killed GLG because he forced him to commit a quasi-good act because even with his rationing the very act of saving a life at all disgusted him.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Belkar didn't kill the Azure City guard in cold blood. He killed him (or was it her?) in the course of an escape from capture by an enemy. Perhaps not "good", but not "evil" either.

Really? Well, perhaps if he left it at that, yes, but using the guard's blood to write an inflammatory message to Miko (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0265.html)?


He arranged to have the Lawful Good Kobold killed because said Kobold was actively trying to kill him. Nothing evil there either.

...With a bonus to the person who makes him squeal the loudest?


He killed Grand Larceny Guy to prevent him from killing Hinjo. His actual motiviations were base, but his actions in that incident were not at all evil.

"This for making me perform a quasi-good act!"


Poor Belkar. Just because he's CE, he gets blamed for EVERY little thing he does that no one would blink an eye at if another character had done it.

Indeed. I am sure that, if a good character were to start doing things that the readers consider to be evil, the forums would be completely silent. After all, the Paladin Who Shall Not be Named never raised so much as a... oh. (ahem). Next!

Belkar's CE status shows up not just in what he does, but how (and why) he does it.

[hamishspence]

I prefer "one evil act doesn't make one Evil, Unless being was already morally right next to the border between Neutral and Evil, or, it was a very, very evil act"

EDIT: my reason for thinking the second- was- DMG and PHB in 2nd ed said so, and DMG in 3rd ed 3.5 ed pretty much says so, though it's cited as very rare.

For the first, The Giant's essay in War and XPs fits the change for Good to Neutral, IMO.

[David Argall]

I could be wrong, but didn't Grand Larceny Guy just commit attempted murder, and treason. and didn't you say earlier, that A CG person can kill someone who "deserves to die" without alignment problems?
Which was unimportant to Belkar. He killed him for bothering Belkar.
The rapist-murderer enters a girl's room. I shoot him. Am I a good guy? Perhaps if I shoot him for fear for the lass or such, but not if I think he is her husband and put out about her putting out for me.


Didn't you also say it doesn't matter what motives are, if person deserves to die, killing them isn't Evil?
Somebody has said so, but I doubt I have, and certainly retract any such implication. Motives are of major importance. You donating a car to a charity in Africa sounds good, until we find out this means the cops will never find the getaway car from the big bank robbery, and that you will get a nice tax write-off.

Now in the final analysis, we might say that only results count, but we are planning creatures, and our plans work at least part of the time. So we can get closer to the result we want by saying intentions count. We praise the good intentions because they lead, on average, to good results. The times they don't, we accept as just a cost of being mortal.
Within limits of course. At some point we have to say the intention may have been good, but the results were just too likely to be evil. So motive can be considered a lesser standard than the actual results.
We also have the problem of often being unable to determine motive. Pretty much all you have is what the other guy says, and you know he lies. So you have major problems in judging acts by their motives.

But yes, motives are of major importance in judging actions.



Really? Well, perhaps if he left it at that, yes, but using the guard's blood to write an inflammatory message to Miko?
Ah yes. I had forgotten that point. Belkar did not kill the guard to prevent unjustified evil to himself, but to allow him to do additional evil. So any claim of non-evil is negated by his overall intentions being evil.

[hamishspence]

"he deserves to die" and "no sin to snuff him"

[Aetthyng]

Belkar Is useful at rare times, but I don't think that's the point. I don't want to argue abou the effectiveness about the team's members, because we all know they're all just kind of screwed up and lucky if they ever win a battle (Except for V pwning the giant devil but that's a new trend in him) (her) by which I mean that it's a freakin' webcomic and no one takes they're usefulness seriously it's just that they're funny and awesome in they're own special way. What has belkar done? He's probably the funniest character and also he stabbed like fifty hobgoblins in one strip, but does anyone question that if he were missing that rich burlew would justify the oots' progress through their story in some funny, a** backwards way? I don't. But belkar is more than just comic relief. Face it, he's been offered to leave or betray the oots many times, but he hasn't. And now, because he's been acting like a d**k to haley, killed an innocent dude, and an innocent useful dude, and subsequently lost the ability to do anything but make others vomit. So now he's an obstacle, too, not just a walking joke with a creepy smile. I'm just saying there has to be more to belkar than meets the eye. Is he, in fact, a worthy friend and ally of the others who's been hiding for dramatic effect? Why kill him now? I say tragic hero - with an ootsworthy twist.

Or I don't know, maybe Rich decided he has too many good characters and started peeling away Roy V and Belkar lol.

[David Argall]

"he deserves to die" and "no sin to snuff him"

Where do these quotes come from? They do not appear to be from this thread.

[Ash08]

So they don't mind his actions when they are morally wrong as long as they help the party, is that right?[/QUOTE]



Isn't that the way it is in all adventering parties?

[Lunar Savage]

I like Belkar. He's the only one that's consistently funny (now that the order is apart anyway...). You'd think that if the story wasn't really going to be moving anywhere, they'd keep the jokes rolling, but right now, he's not getting so many lines. :smallfrown:

Yes, character development, exploring other plot points and showing how the order falls apart without Roy is nice and all, but honestly...it's kinda boring.

I began reading this comic because it was consistently funny, but it has traded it in for player motivated drama. :smallyuk:

I say keep Belkar alive even though the oracle says he's gonna die anyway.

Although...if the new strip was any indication, maybe I'll get some more comic relief for the next few strips. Btw, Haley is my favorite character. :smallsmile: Go rogues! :smallbiggrin:

And Belkar is of course, my second favorite. :smallwink:

[Vercingex]

Belkar illustrates the classic DnD problem of the Mixed-Alignment Party. When most of the party is Good or Neutral, even a single evil (in particular, Chaotic Evil, or, as is sometimes known, Chaotic Stupid) character can destroy party unity over moral issues.

When you're killing a bunch of maurading monsters in a dungeon, it's not so much of an issue. There's no real problem with motivations since everyone regardless of alignment is on the same track; kill the monsters.

However, if the player of the CE character decides he hasn't been roleplaying his alignment well enough, or the Good players do something solely for the betterment of the world, then there are going to be serious issues.

In the first case, if the Chaotic Evil character decides, say, to resell libererated slaves to the highest bidder, or use villagers as walking health potions via a Vampiric Weapon (which actually happened in my game), then naturally the Good characters would want to stop such behavior. Conflict ensues.

In the second case, the CE character is going to feel he lacks motivation for the adventure, as rightly he/she should based off his/her alignment, then that player feels obligated to either walk out on the adventure or royally mess everything up at the first possible opportunity, or simply kill random people. Conflict ensues.

In terms of Belkar, he has been immensely useful in dungeon crawls and pitched battles- what DnD players call "Kick in the Door" kind of adventures. When the story has become more about "roleplay" aspects of the game, the alignment difference is going to cause difficulties in the same way that it would in a real DnD game.

[Lunar Savage]

Belkar illustrates the classic DnD problem of the Mixed-Alignment Party. When most of the party is Good or Neutral, even a single evil (in particular, Chaotic Evil, or, as is sometimes known, Chaotic Stupid) character can destroy party unity over moral issues.

When you're killing a bunch of maurading monsters in a dungeon, it's not so much of an issue. There's no real problem with motivations since everyone regardless of alignment is on the same track; kill the monsters.

However, if the player of the CE character decides he hasn't been roleplaying his alignment well enough, or the Good players do something solely for the betterment of the world, then there are going to be serious issues.

In the first case, if the Chaotic Evil character decides, say, to resell libererated slaves to the highest bidder, or use villagers as walking health potions via a Vampiric Weapon (which actually happened in my game), then naturally the Good characters would want to stop such behavior. Conflict ensues.

In the second case, the CE character is going to feel he lacks motivation for the adventure, as rightly he/she should based off his/her alignment, then that player feels obligated to either walk out on the adventure or royally mess everything up at the first possible opportunity, or simply kill random people. Conflict ensues.

In terms of Belkar, he has been immensely useful in dungeon crawls and pitched battles- what DnD players call "Kick in the Door" kind of adventures. When the story has become more about "roleplay" aspects of the game, the alignment difference is going to cause difficulties in the same way that it would in a real DnD game.

That it does, that it does. I tried running an evil campaign once...about halfway through, I had to just change them into good characters because they sucked at playing evil (basically wanted to kill everything in sight, or anything that even gave them a cross look). I used jeweled armor (greedy characters) that had an enchantment that made the wearer's alignment change to the opposite of what they currently were. The enchantment only worked one time per person. Naturally they each received a set of armor, and put them on at the same time. They had no idea what was about to happen. :smallbiggrin:

But, the humor value...was priceless! I have several stories I could go on about, but then again...that's not what this thread is for. Actually...come to think of it, they had more hilarious stories than just the ones in the evil campaign. :smallsmile:

[hamishspence]

they come from you, as part of your arguments that killing someone who deserves to die, is by default a good act.

This will draw from numerous sources, so bear with me.

Vile Darkness defines Revenge as not evil, but selfish, and says it is "revenge at any price" that is the mark of the evil mindset. Faerun has a LG deity and an LN deity, both devoted, at least partly, to vengeance (especially the LN Hoar The Doombringer). The Deva in SoD does not say Eugene is in trouble for swearing an oath of vengeance against the living Xykon, but for failing to complete it. Same with the deva who tries Roy.

So, revenge alone does not make Belkar's act evil. By BoED, such a selfish motivation would make the normally Good act Neutral.

As for the issue of taking him prisoner, GLG has just committed high teason and attempted murder, on the field of battle, has a quiver of deadly poisoned arrows, and Belkar is plummeting with him toward enemy lines. There is no good reason to try and take him prisoner. In effect, by attempting to murder Hinjo, he has made himself "a valid target" for Belkar.

While I consider Belkar virtually the definition of CE, by your own arguments, the act of attacking and killing GLG is very difficult to define as evil.

[NotNale]

Re: What's with the Belkar hate?

Excessive moralism that demonstrates a mis-understanding of the comic genre?

Just a guess.

[Lunar Savage]

Excessive moralism that demonstrates a mis-understanding of the comic genre?

Just a guess.

Hit the nail on the head, you have.

[evileeyore]

Excessive moralism that demonstrates a mis-understanding of the comic genre?

Just a guess.

I both understand the comic and have no morals... yet I despise the way Belkar consistently drags the party down.


As I said earlier, when the comic jumped the aardvark Belkar went from from a funny necessary part of the team to a not as funny unecessary not-a-team player. Is there still humor to be mined from his dead weight? Sure and The Giant has been digging at it, but the mine is pretty played out, time to move on.

Cerebus has roared, Belkar's time is nigh.

[Kish]

I'll just say that it's the easiest thing in the world to say anyone who disagrees with you, quote unquote, "mis-understands" something that you understand.

[Koshiro]

Its not moral preachiness man.
Well, I actually perceive the recent treatment of Belkar in the book as such.


Belkar, on the other hand, is just stabbity-stabbity-stab. It really get old, at least for me.
Well, I disagree. "Belkar stabs someone" is merely the common element in a great many different hilarious situations.
"Got it out for you." :smallbiggrin:
Also, Xykon's evilness is not as funny because he's the villain. Sure, the nonchalance with which he goes about it is mildly funny, but the whole "foil" aspect of Belkar is lacking.
The "bad guys" equivalent of Belkar would be the... is there an official term... unknown Monster.

[Shadic]

Belkar really wasn't that bad while he was under Roy's control. As the chart from the Diva had shown, Belkar's evil acts dropped dramatically while he was stuck hanging around with Roy.

I think that despite what Belkar has said, he actually does respect Roy on some grounds - If only because he knows that Roy is more intelligent, AND more powerful than he is.

First of all, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0153.html) we see Belkar respecting Roy's intelligence. Hell, Belkar WANTS to rescue Elan, and knows that Roy would very likely be the best one of them to come up with a plan to do so successfully.

And secondly, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html) in the sixth panel, Belkar directly calls Roy "Awesome." Roy is able to insult his opponents, and kick ass. Not to mention, Roy took his side over Miko, and actually fights her three times over the comic.

Also, Belkar doesn't resort to needless killing in combat while Roy is around. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0152.html) He could have killed that second level character in a round or two pretty easily, especially with Durkon and Roy whacking him as well. Did he? No.

I'm not arguing that Belkar isn't Chaotic Evil, at all. I do think that part of it is because he just enjoys killing.. Which has been shown in comic being based off his low wisdom. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html) I'm not saying that Belkar will ever not be evil, nor that he's just misguided. Belkar just wants to have fun, and Roy is able to curb Belkar's fun so that it doesn't involve killed people that don't need to be killed.

[Prowl]

Belkar doesn't fit with a lot of peoples' expectation of the current OotS, a psychopathic murderous halfling is a bit out of place on a quest to save the world. Back when the expectation for the strip was humor rather than drama, he fit in just fine.

Someone once said, "Tragedy is when I stub my toe. Comedy is when you fall down an open manhole." Belkar is a walking open manhole, and those of us who appreciate the comic first for humor and the storyline afterwards appreciate his presence. For those who expect this stick figure comic to be the epitome of seriousness, it is no surprise that Belkar should be inconvenient to their expectations.

I believe the author gave the proverbial middle finger to the 'over serious' camp with strip #600, and in doing so made an implicit statement that the storyline exists to support the primary goal of comedy, not to replace it.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

I believe the author gave the proverbial middle finger to the 'over serious' camp with strip #600, and in doing so made an implicit statement that the storyline exists to support the primary goal of comedy, not to replace it.
I think Rich gives the proverbial shaft to the Belkar-is-innocent-fun camp in this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html) but that's just IMHO.

Edit I wonder if panel 2 of page 128 is an even earlier foreshadowing of Belkar's death and the possible way it will come about.