X-Com

[Headless_Ninja]

So, having heard much about X-Com, and spotting them going cheap on Steam, I've decided to start playing them. As far as I've been informed, the best games (and maybe the only ones worth playing) are UFO Defence (which I'm fairly sure my father bought me when I was about eight, then gave away when he realised I was far too young to actually play it :smallfurious:) and Terror From the Deep. So, X-Com fans, which should I play first, if either?

[SmartAlec]

They're more or less exactly the same game.

But generally, UFO Defence is the classic original, so I'd go with that.

[BRC]

UFO Defense is the classic, although those stupid Cryptids with their zombie-bites, massive movement speeds, and habit of playing dead.... HATE THEM, HATE THEM HATE THEM HATE THEM!

[Cristo Meyers]

UFO Defense...definitely UFO Defense.

Terror From the Deep is good, in it's own way, but the ramped up difficulty will probably leave you banging your head into the desk.

[Headless_Ninja]

OK, UFO Defence it is. That was quick!

[Winterwind]

First of all, congratulations on a great decision. UFO Defence was my most favourite time whatsoever through most of my childhood (basically, until StarCraft came out), and it's still very high up there. :smallsmile:

To add some detail, UFO Defence is also the first game as far as the story they tell is concerned, so that would be another reason to go for that first.

Besides the difficulty, the major difference between the two is the feeling they are going for. UFO Defence tries to capture the X-Files mood, and excells at that; Terror from the Deep goes more for a Lovecraftian atmosphere, and succeeds as well.

[Tom_Violence]

Don't bother with Terror From The Deep. Its exactly the same game, only a million times worse. Dreadful levels, dreadful gear, dreadful enemies, dreadful insane difficulty.

[Cristo Meyers]

Yeah, to me they kinda screwed up Terror From the Deep. Really, they never actually intended to make it. Apocalypse, the third installment, was actually supposed to be the sequel but it was taking too long to develop and they were under pressure to get a sequel out. So they took UFO Defense, cranked up the difficulty a bit, slapped an underwater theme on it, and called it Terror From the Deep.

[Tengu_temp]

First of all, congratulations on a great decision. UFO Defence was my most favourite time whatsoever through most of my childhood (basically, until StarCraft came out), and it's still very high up there. :smallsmile:


Didn't it disturb you in any way? This game is the sole reason I started to be afraid of aliens when I was a kid.

And yes, it's great.

[Headless_Ninja]

Terror from the Deep goes more for a Lovecraftian atmosphere, and succeeds as well

Oo, I do love Lovecraft...

[Tengu_temp]

Play the first X-Com before that, regardless. Otherwise the difficulty of TftD will eat you alive.

[factotum]

No love for X-COM: Apocalypse? I actually liked that game!

[Premier]

So, having heard much about X-Com, and spotting them going cheap on Steam, I've decided to start playing them. As far as I've been informed, the best games (and maybe the only ones worth playing) are UFO Defence (which I'm fairly sure my father bought me when I was about eight, then gave away when he realised I was far too young to actually play it :smallfurious:) and Terror From the Deep. So, X-Com fans, which should I play first, if either?

You should definitely try Apocalypse as well. It kind of fashionable in some X-Com fan circles to rag on it, but that says more about the fandom than the game, really. It's really different. Not worse, different. And many fans, especially after Terror From the Deep being almost identical to the first game, just can't accept that and never give the game a fair try.

[Tengu_temp]

It was okay, but not as much as the first two. I liked the spiritual sequels more (it helps that the first one represents the feeling of Eastern Bloc countries perfectly).

[Headless_Ninja]

OK, now I'm thinking of just getting the X-Com bundle. I know Enforcer is supposed to be useless, but it's actually cheaper than buying UFO Defence, Terror From the Deep and Apocalypse separately. What about Interceptor? Or is that another pointless spin-off?

[Cubey]

I wouldn't say that TftD is a rehash of Ufo Defense in aquatic environment. The engine and basics are the same, but there is enough changes to make the game stand on its own.
Greatly increased difficulty is enough of a difference in its own. And I don't mean increased numbers and stats of aliens, but a much trickier discovery tree, smaller clips on alien weapons, many guns unusable on dry land... that's enough to completely re-evaluate the tactics you use. There are also drills as melee weapons, two-parter alien bases and ship terror sites (you'll learn to hate them - in a good way), and an entirely different feel. Like it was said before, if Ufo is X-Files then Terror is Lovecraft. Both are creepy and make you feel like there's something out there to get you, though.

Apocalypse is indeed an entirely different game altogether. Lot of it was cut out, mostly the political arena that was not to be only used by X-Com to gain support in the city but also by the aliens to infiltrate it. I still advise to try it out at least, and it's also easier than Ufo Defense and Terror from the Deep, but by no means easy. At least as long as land-based missions are concerned, that is. Fighting the UFOs themselves is more difficult, and you can expect bigger problems with your funding.

[Winterwind]

Didn't it disturb you in any way? This game is the sole reason I started to be afraid of aliens when I was a kid.I guess my three years earlier dewombing date protected me from the worst. Still, I remember some nights when sleep was... not easy to find (Chryssalids! They came from nowhere! From nowhere!) :smallwink::smallbiggrin:


Play the first X-Com before that, regardless. Otherwise the difficulty of TftD will eat you alive.I agree.

Sorry, cannot say anything about either Apocalypse, Enforcer or Interceptor; I have only played the two original games.

[Tom_Violence]

Out of curiousity, has anyone here played the newer batch of UFO games? (Aftershock, Afterlight, whatever they're called...), and if so, what do people think of them? Personally, I really enjoy them for the most part, though I'm yet to actually complete any. I found I ran into exactly the same problem that I had with Terror - after a while you find yourself just doing mission after mission after mission in such rapid succession and with no real progress in between that your brain just explodes in frustration and, frankly, boredom.

[Wraith]

We had quite an expansive thread going about the X-Com series not too long ago - if you want them, there's a lot of opinions and discussion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64601&highlight=x-com) about which game was better and why, so why not start there? :smallsmile:

I personally have played none of the games apart from the original, Enemy Unknown, mostly because I've never been able to get my hands on such games and partly because it'd be a waste of time if I did.

I get slaughtered quickly enough on Easiest mode, so I don't see why I need to worry about moving up to play a HARDER game just yet! :smallbiggrin:

[Ganurath]

X-Com UFO Defense was my first computer game. It's the only one I've ever played, though. I don't want to spoil the mystique.

Finest moment: I had the enemy down to the last Muton. I knew exactly where he was standing because I had MCed it the previous round. The only guy near him went through the door, but the Muton was in a blind shot. I could turn, I could shoot, but I couldn't do both. Blind shot into the dark... And the Muton drops to the laser pistol. Classic.

[Dervag]

It was okay, but not as much as the first two. I liked the spiritual sequels more (it helps that the first one represents the feeling of Eastern Bloc countries perfectly).Huh?


X-Com UFO Defense was my first computer game. It's the only one I've ever played, though. I don't want to spoil the mystique.

Finest moment: I had the enemy down to the last Muton. I knew exactly where he was standing because I had MCed it the previous round. The only guy near him went through the door, but the Muton was in a blind shot. I could turn, I could shoot, but I couldn't do both. Blind shot into the dark... And the Muton drops to the laser pistol. Classic.[applauds]

I have a rough idea of how lucky you were.

My favorite is the time on a terror mission that my fire team took down a Chryssalid that was standing right behind the team leader. Literally right behind; it got into melee range but didn't attack. I was so sure the team was screwed when I saw it come trotting up during the Alien turn...

[Traikan]

First, let me say that some times I really like X-Com.

Second, let me say that some times I really hate X-Com.

I imagine this is the typical relationship with a game, but never since has getting my ass handed to me so often managed to keep me playing.

As far as the new series goes, the only one I enjoyed enough to finish was UFO: Extraterrestrials with B-Man's mod. (Hyphen may or may not be present, I don't remember) With proper tweaking it really recreates the X-Com feel and difficulty but with a new set of environments, weapons, aliens, and graphics. There's some things I don't like about it, namely the inability to build choke points into your base entrances, but I'd still recommend looking into it.

Also, I noticed on steam it says X-Com is multiplayer and co-op? I am quite confused.

[Cubey]

Huh?

I believe Tengu means that the ruins of cities, or at least cities situated in eastern and central Europe, really do feel like these cities do in real life. Or rather, how'd they feel if they were devoid of non-mutated life.

[oreganoe]

I know that there are multiplayer mods for vs. mode in UFO Defense, I don't know about co-op.

As far as Interceptor goes, I enjoyed it as a kid, it's really quite different then UFO Defense, as it's a flight simulator instead of a tactical turn based system. Also, there are a few easy strategies so you pretty much always win. If you like flight games then grab it, you still get to build bases (spacestations) but for overall strategy go for the original games.

[Sanzh]

UFO Defense is the classic, although those stupid Cryptids with their zombie-bites, massive movement speeds, and habit of playing dead.... HATE THEM, HATE THEM HATE THEM HATE THEM!
You mean Chrysallids.
Also, NOT ENOUGH TIME UNITS.

[BRC]

You mean Chrysallids.
Also, NOT ENOUGH TIME UNITS.
Yeah
GRAAGGGHHH, HATE THEM HATE THEM HATE THEM. HATE THE UNKILLABLE, DEAD-PLAYING, FAST-MOVING, ZOMBIFYING OVERGROWN BEETLES!

[factotum]

Out of curiousity, has anyone here played the newer batch of UFO games? (Aftershock, Afterlight, whatever they're called...), and if so, what do people think of them?

My personal opinion is that they screwed up by making the games pretty much as difficult as the original X-Com series but only giving you half the number of meat shields you got back then; in Aftermath, losing one or two members of the team would often spell mission failure, and they die so easily...

[Ganurath]

Yeah
GRAAGGGHHH, HATE THEM HATE THEM HATE THEM. HATE THE UNKILLABLE, DEAD-PLAYING, FAST-MOVING, ZOMBIFYING OVERGROWN BEETLES!I hated them at first. But then, I started working my team so that the first troops out of the transport had itchy trigger fingers. They're much easier to deal with when you're soldiers consistently shoot on the Alien turn.

[SolkaTruesilver]

My personal opinion is that they screwed up by making the games pretty much as difficult as the original X-Com series but only giving you half the number of meat shields you got back then; in Aftermath, losing one or two members of the team would often spell mission failure, and they die so easily...

Personnaly, what I didn't liked in Afterlight (the only one I played, btw, the one on Mars) was that the non-uber lethality of weapons. In X-Com, it was common to have 1-shot kills, so having the best position, the first shot, etc... was extremely (EXTREMELY) critical. While in Afterlight, I just had to pack a lot of ammo and have my team shoot 3-4 times a guy to kill him. 5-6 time if he was a beastman..

Less... tension. Less nervosity.

EDIT: But on the other hand, there was a lot of very good things I liked with the game. First among them was the orgasm-like sensation when you deploy your first warbot, armed with quad-linked machine guns...

niiiiiiiiice....

[Prustan]

What I don't like about the whole series is that you tend to get screwed as soon as the Aliens get a decent launcher. This is especially true in Aftermath and Aftershock, since your team does not have a 'stay in formation' option, and consistently cluster together everytime you move them as a group. Not to mention that the first time the Aliens had decent launchers in Aftermath, it wasn't just one. No, they had to send about five of them, supported by a large number of grunts :smalleek:. First one spotted me, started shooting, and the noise brought the rest running. Gave up really quickly after that, since the team were dropping like flies and getting destroyed by explosions.

[SolkaTruesilver]

I guess I found that really annoying too... Same in Afterlight..

But, all of it are merely design features that, in theory, could very well be fixed by proper mods and decent developpers. The whole gameplay still had very, very sound features.

[ninja_penguin]

Yeah
GRAAGGGHHH, HATE THEM HATE THEM HATE THEM. HATE THE UNKILLABLE, DEAD-PLAYING, FAST-MOVING, ZOMBIFYING OVERGROWN BEETLES!

This is why my standard operating procedure consisted of lobbing a grenade or other explosive on top of the Chryssalid corpse, to make sure that none of them ever got up again. Of course, when you've got the rookie in the back of the skyranger calling in blaster bomb support, that's always fun, too. I think my biggest freak-out encounter was when I raided an alien base, and found out it was a snakeman base, so that meant that chryssalids were hiding somewhere in there, too.

[Cubey]

Eh, Chryssalids are monstrous but you get used to them. Try Ethereal bases. Hooray, every alien has psychic powers and their terror units are nigh invulnerable to anything but laser weaponry! (Which barely works on Ethereals themselves)

On a side note, I want to use this moment to describe differences between weapon tiers in Ufo Defense and Terror from the Deep. In Ufo, normal weapons are pretty weak but hold for their own for quite a while, lasers are useful and moderately powerful, and plasma kills almost everything (except Sectopods) in 1-2 shots. TftD's normal weapons are pretty much useless on anything except Aquatoids (even Gillmen can take more than one shot to kill), gauss is a significant improvement but still very weak and, unlike lasers, uses up ammo clips, and sonic packs a moderate punch but has very little ammo (10 for Sonic Cannon, while Heavy Plasma had what, 35?).
That's because facing heavily armoured aliens anywhere but on early game stages is the norm. Fortunately, alien grenades got stronger too - and it doesn't make a difference when they get lobbed at your men, because they'd never survive one anyway even in the original Ufo.

[Bouregard]

play the first one. Its free. You can legaly download it http://www.the-underdogs.info/
maybe some other ufo games are there to. (But remeber their 1download at one time rule, yes do it, they are serious about that)


I really liked the mobile armor platform (tanks) that combined with laserweaponry wielding infantry is just ownage. Send in the tanks first, they drop pretty much anything in one shot and only die from multiple enemys.

Take aircraftresearch seriously. The newer are bigger, faster and can kill faster. I usually prefer shooting down over wait for landing.

In the last missions always remember to take laserguns with you. ammunition could become a problem.


Is there a way to get lost of imprisoned aliens?

[Cubey]

What the Underdogs page does is illegal in most countries. Its server is situated in some Asian country (I don't remember which one exactly) that takes a lax position on copyright, and that's why it wasn't shut down yet. I won't comment further on the issue, though.

Tanks are very tough, at least until enemies start issuing Heavy Plasma to every alien with friggin' hands, but they don't gain experience from kills. So you don't want them to shoot at aliens, but rather serve as long-range scouts and fodder that goes around corners to check if there's a Muton hiding there or not.

Your basic Interceptor fighters are surprisingly useful even in lategame. They are expensive in upkeep, but they don't use up Elerium as fuel, and while their top speed is so-so, their range is more than decent. As far as combat goes... they're very soft, but Avalanche Launchers and Plasma Cannons have longer range than every enemy UFO except for Battleships. And you need an Avenger to deal with Battleships easily.
So, to summarise. Interceptors are always the mainstay, Firestorms are your quick-response craft, Avengers are used to hunt down Battleships, Skyrangers are your transports (Avengers burn too much fuel to use them casually), and Lightnings... yeah. Ignore Lightnings.

There is no way to get rid of imprisoned aliens other than researching them. However, both Ufo Defense and Terror from the Deep have a bug/feature - you need only one alien containment no matter how many aliens you have in your base. I guess overcrowding is not an issue for them.

[Cristo Meyers]

I never even attempt to shoot down Battleships. Even an Avenger is going to take a pounding trying.

I always wait for them to land and take 'em then.

[Neo]

yeah, battleships can be taken out with the best gear, but do about 30-50% damage to your avenger before going down, and it takes ages to repair.

Also best to take them landed as you get more stuff and the commanders etc.

[Cristo Meyers]

Yup, clear out the aliens outside and just park some troops in the corners of the main lift and shoot upwards as the rest of the aliens try and get out.

Works especially well on Mutons since their AI seems more aggressive. Not so much on Ethereals, though.

[Cubey]

Yeah, but there's one issue.
A Battleship is usually the last ship on a mission. That means that if it lands, their mission is completed - even if you shoot down the UFO after it takes off, even if you raid it while it's still on the ground. That's not a problem for Alien Base/Supply Missions, but a huge one for Alien Inflitration. If that Battleship lands, tough luck: you just lost another country.

[Cristo Meyers]

Really? 'Cause I don't recall losing a country just because the thing landed and taking the ship on the ground is the only way I've ever gone after a Battleship.

[Triaxx]

Actually Underdogs does it's best to locate places where you can actually buy the game. At current TFtD points to Steam, where you can legally buy the game.

If you have a joystick and like flight sims, Interceptor is awesome.

[Cubey]

Really? 'Cause I don't recall losing a country just because the thing landed and taking the ship on the ground is the only way I've ever gone after a Battleship.

Are you sure they were inflitration mission Battleships?

Also, how to destroy one easily: Fusion Ball Launchers. It's a net loss of Elerium though, because you're very likely to blow its power source up.

[Cristo Meyers]

At least one of them had to be, probably more.

Eh, either way. For whatever reason, I don't seem to have that problem. *shrug*

[Bouregard]

What the Underdogs page does is illegal in most countries. Its server is situated in some Asian country (I don't remember which one exactly) that takes a lax position on copyright, and that's why it wasn't shut down yet. I won't comment further on the issue, though.

Tanks are very tough, at least until enemies start issuing Heavy Plasma to every alien with friggin' hands, but they don't gain experience from kills. So you don't want them to shoot at aliens, but rather serve as long-range scouts and fodder that goes around corners to check if there's a Muton hiding there or not.

There is no way to get rid of imprisoned aliens other than researching them. However, both Ufo Defense and Terror from the Deep have a bug/feature - you need only one alien containment no matter how many aliens you have in your base. I guess overcrowding is not an issue for them.

Underdogs remove every download if the owner want it. But I'm not a lawyer. They exist a pretty long time and I never heard of someone complaining.

Tanks maybe not gain experience. True. But they are faster replaceable as highrankinfantry and nearly as strong. Oh. And mindcontroling aliens or those buggers who try to plant their seeds into my soldiers aren't a problem anymore. The infantry serves me mostly as a replaceble Shoot-things-to-pieces-force to shoot down walls/obstacles to free the way for the tanks. Or to throw grenades/rockets

Mhm You're sure? I played UFO maybe 3 years ago the last time. And I'm pretty sure that full prisons was a problem to me. Or was it corpses? But corpses are sellable (pretty good income hehe, bugs me who on earth has a dire need of that much alien corpses)

[Dervag]

Underdogs remove every download if the owner want it. But I'm not a lawyer. They exist a pretty long time and I never heard of someone complaining.

Tanks maybe not gain experience. True. But they are faster replaceable as highrankinfantry and nearly as strong. Oh. And mindcontroling aliens or those buggers who try to plant their seeds into my soldiers aren't a problem anymore. The infantry serves me mostly as a replaceble Shoot-things-to-pieces-force to shoot down walls/obstacles to free the way for the tanks. Or to throw grenades/rockets

Mhm You're sure? I played UFO maybe 3 years ago the last time. And I'm pretty sure that full prisons was a problem to me. Or was it corpses? But corpses are sellable (pretty good income hehe, bugs me who on earth has a dire need of that much alien corpses)There are dozens of governments and probably hundreds of research institutions that would mortgage their souls to get their hands on bonafide samples of alien life forms.

[RPGuru1331]

I recall an X-Com Mod that boosts the stats on armor, and tanks a bit, making both feel a little less useless (OTOH, Personal Armor wearers will not usually die to a Plasma Pistol wielder..)

Anyone know where I can get hta tperchance? I can grab it at home and would like to play X-Com in a less irritatingly precise fashion..

[Cubey]

Mhm You're sure? I played UFO maybe 3 years ago the last time. And I'm pretty sure that full prisons was a problem to me. Or was it corpses? But corpses are sellable (pretty good income hehe, bugs me who on earth has a dire need of that much alien corpses)

Yeah, it may be version dependant.

As for corpses... two words: Sectoid Sushi.
No, seriously. That's the semi-canon explanation.

[Archonic Energy]

Yeah, it may be version dependant.

As for corpses... two words: Sectoid Sushi.
No, seriously. That's the semi-canon explanation.

are you talking about the Apocolypse bit where the mutant alliance will ally with you when they find out they serve sectoids as a delecesy... :smallwink:

i want me a nova-bomb!

[Cristo Meyers]

Yeah, it may be version dependant.

As for corpses... two words: Sectoid Sushi.
No, seriously. That's the semi-canon explanation.

Yes, but there's a reason we don't talk about the novelization...

Just like the mythical "Highlander 2," it does not exist.

[Cubey]

There were two independent novelisations, actually. Both were... pretty bad from what I know.

[Ganurath]

There were two independent novelisations, actually. Both were... pretty bad from what I know.What novels? I've never heard of X-Com novels.

[Cristo Meyers]

No, there are no novels.

However, if there were, they might look something like this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-COM_:_UFO_Defense_-_A_Novel)

[TurkeyTGNom]

X-Com UFO Defense was my first computer game. It's the only one I've ever played, though. I don't want to spoil the mystique.

Finest moment: I had the enemy down to the last Muton. I knew exactly where he was standing because I had MCed it the previous round. The only guy near him went through the door, but the Muton was in a blind shot. I could turn, I could shoot, but I couldn't do both. Blind shot into the dark... And the Muton drops to the laser pistol. Classic.

Or, if you were as angry with that damned panic/mind control as i was, HWP:Alien Launcher into da farm house!

with me, unless i was trying to capture something for the scientists, or doing a anti-terror mission, i would lay waste to everything until nothing was left.

alien launchers also make good punched holes on the side of downed alien ships.

[Cristo Meyers]

Finest Moment: Granted, this was on the easiest difficulty, but still. Final Mission, thanks to a moment of stupidity I clicked the Abort Mission button with only ONE soldier on the lift down into the second level of the base.

So now I have a single soldier on the inside. For the hell of it, I decided to play it out.

I won.

I cleared out the entire second level of the final alien base with ONE SOLDIER.

This was also the first time I'd even tried the final mission.

[Ganurath]

Or, if you were as angry with that damned panic/mind control as i was, HWP:Alien Launcher into da farm house!Too explodey. I find it easier to have my psi team be more adept at mindrape than ethereals. There's something about having an ethereal commander squat on his own live grenade... Glee!

[Headless_Ninja]

Am currently Steaming UFO Defence. Thanks for the input folks!

[Helgraf]

X-Com: UFO Defense.

A perennial favorite of mine.

And yes, Chryssalids were bad news - but I'd take a pack of them over fighting those damn Ethereals.

Also, fielding a tank was a decent and not too expensive way of flushing them out. Send the tank out first. Maybe it gets shot, but if not, it can actually take a few hits from crazy psycho Chryssalids. And then you can pick the bugs off with your team.

The real bad news was ... Chryssalid Terror Missions. Because like as not, you'd end up having to kill a ton of citizens incubated with Chryssalids.

[Bouregard]

X-Com: UFO Defense.

A perennial favorite of mine.

And yes, Chryssalids were bad news - but I'd take a pack of them over fighting those damn Ethereals.

Also, fielding a tank was a decent and not too expensive way of flushing them out. Send the tank out first. Maybe it gets shot, but if not, it can actually take a few hits from crazy psycho Chryssalids. And then you can pick the bugs off with your team.

The real bad news was ... Chryssalid Terror Missions. Because like as not, you'd end up having to kill a ton of citizens incubated with Chryssalids.


stun the civilitians. If you finish the mission before they wake up then everthing is fine. If they wake up they will count as enemys and you have to kill them what gives obscure rating loses. Cryssalids never target dead/stunned guys.

[Tom_Violence]

I remember a great little 'bug' that solved all my money woes in the original - just make sure all your scientists and engineers are in transit at the end of the month, that way you don't have to pay their wages and thus saving you bajillions. Managing money never was my strong suit and that little trick saved my bacon more than a couple of times.

[Dervag]

Or, if you were as angry with that damned panic/mind control as i was, HWP:Alien Launcher into da farm house!

with me, unless i was trying to capture something for the scientists, or doing a anti-terror mission, i would lay waste to everything until nothing was left.

alien launchers also make good punched holes on the side of downed alien ships.Oh, you mean blaster launcher. At first, I thought you meant Small Launchers (the ones that fire stun bombs).

Yeah. Of course, blaster launchers are also the only thing that can punch holes in the side of downed alien ships.

I like the Small Launcher, too. It's got good damage, and you can fire it even when your troops are close to the enemy in a pinch. Plus, once you have it capturing aliens becomes easy.
_________


Finest Moment: Granted, this was on the easiest difficulty, but still. Final Mission, thanks to a moment of stupidity I clicked the Abort Mission button with only ONE soldier on the lift down into the second level of the base.

So now I have a single soldier on the inside. For the hell of it, I decided to play it out.

I won.

I cleared out the entire second level of the final alien base with ONE SOLDIER.

This was also the first time I'd even tried the final mission.Wow. That is quite badass. What was he armed with?

[Airk]

The major differences I recall from Ufo Defense vs TfoD were:

A) Armor MEANS something in TfoD. Flying suits (the best armor) in UFO Defense meant that, occasionally, one of your troopers would survive a shot, but in general, getting shot was lethal, even for people/aliens in heavy armor. In TFoD heavy armor was good news if you had it, and bad news if you were up against those freakin' lobster men, who would shrug off pretty much all projectile fire (I eventually dubbed the drill weapons 'lobster crackers' because they were very much the best way to kill those crustacians - up close and personal in melee combat)

B) Missions were much -longer- in TFoD. There were tons and tons of two-part missions, which, frankly, got tiresome and frustrating after a while.

[Truwar]

I can't count the number of times I spent hours looking for some stinking panicked lobster man hiding in some closet on a cruise ship. The best part was, by the time you found the cowardly scum he had worked up just enough morale to kill the poor sap that opened the door to his hiding place.

[Cubey]

I remember a great little 'bug' that solved all my money woes in the original - just make sure all your scientists and engineers are in transit at the end of the month, that way you don't have to pay their wages and thus saving you bajillions. Managing money never was my strong suit and that little trick saved my bacon more than a couple of times.

I never really had to resort to that. Making money in UFO is relatively simple - just down enemy ships and raid them. X-Com is not a non-profit organisation and even smallest UFOs can give you a net gain of over one million. Just sell whatever you find and don't need - keep only one of each corpse or other alien junk (Food, Entertainment), at least until you research it so you can sell it as well. You will also probably find a lot of Ufo Navigation modules, so don't stock a lot on them. Ufo Power Sources are trickier because they tend to explode, so keep a small supply of about 5 and sell the rest. The biggest source of income are alien guns though. Especially Plasma Rifle and Plasma Pistol, because you don't really have any incentives to use them anyway.

Also, higher difficulty levels tend to be surprisingly easier than lower, because there will be more UFOs flying around, so you can have more missions, and each UFO has more aliens in it, which means more experience and loot.

[Cristo Meyers]

The biggest source of income are alien guns though. Especially Plasma Rifle and Plasma Pistol, because you don't really have any incentives to use them anyway.


The only reason to even research the Pistol and Rifle is so you can pick them up off of dead aliens in the early game and use them in the middle of a mission.

But eventually every alien starts toting a Heavy anyway...

[Ganurath]

The only reason to even research the Pistol and Rifle is so you can pick them up off of dead aliens in the early game and use them in the middle of a mission.

But eventually every alien starts toting a Heavy anyway...My brother always attested that the Plasma Weapons were always better than Laser Weapons due to their being more advanced technology. I countered that more advanced technology would have unlimited ammunition, but he seems to think that they deal more damage. I've never had a problem with a laser shower not killing my intended targets, though.

[Cubey]

That's because plasma weapons DO deal good damage. Laser is okay, but good luck facing Mutons and Ethereals with only Laser Rifles. Heavy Laser is also very inaccurate and lacks Auto Fire. On the other hand, Heavy Plasma carry 35 rounds in a clip - that should be more than enough for any mission, unless you go for the berserker approach and use Auto Fire regardless of situation.

However, Laser is more than enough for the first missions. Laser Rifles are the perfect weapon to carry as long as aliens don't start using Heavy Plasma en masse.

[Cristo Meyers]

My brother always attested that the Plasma Weapons were always better than Laser Weapons due to their being more advanced technology. I countered that more advanced technology would have unlimited ammunition, but he seems to think that they deal more damage. I've never had a problem with a laser shower not killing my intended targets, though.

My usual equipment is the front four squad members with Heavy Plasma, one Stun Launcher, one Blaster Launcher, and everyone else has Laser Rifles. Chances are the first four are going to kill a couple aliens, leaving extra Plasmas handy for the others to pick up and use.

The Plasma does deal more damage, yes, but the Laser Rifle is more than enough to get you through most threats in the game. I've even cleared out Muton terrorize missions with them. Ethereals can give you a bit of a time, though.

[Ganurath]

Ethereals can give you a bit of a time, though.That's what the Psi-Amps are for. MC the enemies too tough to laser and make them sit on a live grenade.

[Cristo Meyers]

That's what the Psi-Amps are for. MC the enemies too tough to laser and make them sit on a live grenade.

Ah yes, forgot about that...

Once had a Muton do that.

He survived but ended up buried in a 1 square sized hole too deep for him to get out of.

I just had a few squaddies go up to the hole and throw grenades in.

He still survived.

Had to actually go up to the hole and start filling it with laser blasts for the sucker to die...

[Cubey]

Unfortunately, Psi-Amps come a wee bit later in the game than mutons or plasma rifles.

[Tom_Violence]

B) Missions were much -longer- in TFoD. There were tons and tons of two-part missions, which, frankly, got tiresome and frustrating after a while.

This was by far my biggest complaint about the game. I never had anywhere near enough patience to play it after a while, and the same goes for a lot of its successors as well. I think UFO was the only one to really get a decent balance of missions and progress - I gave up on TFtD, and Aftershock out of sheer boredom really.

On another note, how did people get on with Apocalypse? That was a game that I always wanted to really get into, but somehow never really managed to.

[Ganurath]

Unfortunately, Psi-Amps come a wee bit later in the game than mutons or plasma rifles.Yeah, I guess I got really lucky: My first encounter with ethereals was a scout ship, knocked out the pilot with a long-range shot of the laser rifle. Alien Containment finished while the ship was coming home.

[Cubey]

Yeah, that's hella lucky.

What kind of Scout was it, Medium? (Small ufo, the square one, not the X-shaped one) I can't picture anyone downing a Small Scout, (Very Small ufo) unless they deliberately equip one interceptor with weakest guns for the sole purpose of doing that. Anything stronger destroys them completely.

[Ganurath]

Yeah, that's hella lucky.

What kind of Scout was it, Medium? (Small ufo, the square one, not the X-shaped one) I can't picture anyone downing a Small Scout, (Very Small ufo) unless they deliberately equip one interceptor with weakest guns for the sole purpose of doing that. Anything stronger destroys them completely.It was the smallest kind, the 1-man ship, and I let it land because I wanted to have a live victim to capture in the Alien Containment that would be finished.

[Tengu_temp]

Play on Superhuman and see how many soldiers can the aliens fit into a "one-man ship". They are related to clowns, I tell ya.

[Surrealistik]

@ OP: You've been misinformed. Apocalypse was badass, and certainly better than TFTD. A word of recommendation; do not (ab)use Blaster Bombs and Psi-Amps if you want the game to retain any sort of difficulty and challenge.

Also, TFTD isn't at all difficult (even on superhuman) if you play intelligently, cautiously and are tactical.

[Ganurath]

Play on Superhuman and see how many soldiers can the aliens fit into a "one-man ship". They are related to clowns, I tell ya.We're talking about the one that has an elevator as an entrance that goes up and the entire interior is the top half of the elevator, right?

[Tengu_temp]

We're talking about the one that has an elevator as an entrance that goes up and the entire interior is the top half of the elevator, right?

Yes, the tiniest ufo ever. I've seen five or six aliens on one mission with it, once.

[Dervag]

I never really had to resort to that. Making money in UFO is relatively simple - just down enemy ships and raid them. X-Com is not a non-profit organisation and even smallest UFOs can give you a net gain of over one million. Just sell whatever you find and don't need - keep only one of each corpse or other alien junk (Food, Entertainment), at least until you research it so you can sell it as well. You will also probably find a lot of Ufo Navigation modules, so don't stock a lot on them. Ufo Power Sources are trickier because they tend to explode, so keep a small supply of about 5 and sell the rest. The biggest source of income are alien guns though. Especially Plasma Rifle and Plasma Pistol, because you don't really have any incentives to use them anyway.Isn't it true that plasma pistols have the advantage of accurate one-handed fire? That would make them a good sidearm for agents who normally use a heavy weapon, Psi-Amp, or Mind Probe.

Granted, this isn't a major advantage over laser pistols.


My brother always attested that the Plasma Weapons were always better than Laser Weapons due to their being more advanced technology. I countered that more advanced technology would have unlimited ammunition, but he seems to think that they deal more damage. I've never had a problem with a laser shower not killing my intended targets, though.Try blasting through the interior walls of a UFO with a laser weapon. Go ahead. We'll wait.

Plasma weapons are more powerful and their clips are large enough that you usually don't expend more than one per battle unless you do a LOT of wild autofiring. Lasers have unlimited ammunition and so can be fired as much as you want, and don't cost any Elerium to build and keep up.

It's a tradeoff.

Now, you can definitely use lasers as your main weapon for the mid to late game. It will work. But there are some big advantages to going to Heavy Plasma, especially for missions where maximizing your firepower is more important than logistics. Like the final mission- if you win you win absolutely, if you lose you lose absolutely. Who cares about the cost of bringing extra ammo?
________


However, Laser is more than enough for the first missions. Laser Rifles are the perfect weapon to carry as long as aliens don't start using Heavy Plasma en masse.Even then it will work as long against all but the toughest aliens. Heavy Plasma is more powerful, but it still takes a certain amount of autofire to chew through cover. Massed laser fire will make you a match for most of the aliens in the game, IMO.
________


It was the smallest kind, the 1-man ship, and I let it land because I wanted to have a live victim to capture in the Alien Containment that would be finished.Clever. I've got to start doing that.

[Surrealistik]

Now, you can definitely use lasers as your main weapon for the mid to late game. It will work. But there are some big advantages to going to Heavy Plasma, especially for missions where maximizing your firepower is more important than logistics. Like the final mission- if you win you win absolutely, if you lose you lose absolutely. Who cares about the cost of bringing extra ammo?

Las guns are extremely useful for the last mission assuming you don't wait months to go through every last recruit for it. If your soldiers are suited up in power armour, and those with the powerful guns have high psi ratings, you never have to worry about your mind controlled rookies causing havoc; their laser rifles are harmless versus that sort of protection. Additionally, you never are forced to loot ammo off of alien corpses, so it's got convenience going for it too.



Isn't it true that plasma pistols have the advantage of accurate one-handed fire? That would make them a good sidearm for agents who normally use a heavy weapon, Psi-Amp, or Mind Probe.

Granted, this isn't a major advantage over laser pistols.


More often than not, the accuracy bonus typically is not worth the reduction of damage output. Better to just slap on a Heavy Plasma, Blaster Bomb Launcher or Autocannon with explosive/incendiary rounds.



Even then it will work as long against all but the toughest aliens. Heavy Plasma is more powerful, but it still takes a certain amount of autofire to chew through cover. Massed laser fire will make you a match for most of the aliens in the game, IMO.

Yes, more often than not Las guns are perfectly sufficient. Heavy plasmas are often overkill.

[Muz]

With regard to Apocalypse, I and my roommate at the time were both eagerly looking forward to it and grabbed it when it first came out. We had a blast. The differences in the combat system took a little getting used to, but I still remember having a great time. (I also remember head-crabs.)

On the other hand, I've also found that every time I've ever tried to reinstall it and replay it, I just couldn't get back into it. I'm not entirely sure why that is; it could be due to the learning curve. Maybe I just didn't feel like putting out the effort to relearn a game I knew I'd already played...if that makes sense.

[Ganurath]

Try blasting through the interior walls of a UFO with a laser weapon. Go ahead. We'll wait.Nah, I'll just MC the target and have them come into the open... If I want them alive. You want to clear cover, have a floater push a plasma grenade out of its orb.
Plasma weapons are more powerful and their clips are large enough that you usually don't expend more than one per battle unless you do a LOT of wild autofiring. Lasers have unlimited ammunition and so can be fired as much as you want, and don't cost any Elerium to build and keep up.

It's a tradeoff.You forgot another advantage: Base Defense. Which do you prefer laying around the armory: Weapons the enemy can use, or weapons only you can use?
Now, you can definitely use lasers as your main weapon for the mid to late game. It will work. But there are some big advantages to going to Heavy Plasma, especially for missions where maximizing your firepower is more important than logistics. Like the final mission- if you win you win absolutely, if you lose you lose absolutely. Who cares about the cost of bringing extra ammo?Clips cost more than money, they cost slots that can be spent on grenades, smart missiles, and Psi-Amps.

[Dervag]

Las guns are extremely useful for the last mission assuming you don't wait months to go through every last recruit for it. If your soldiers are suited up in power armour, and those with the powerful guns have high psi ratings, you never have to worry about your mind controlled rookies causing havoc; their laser rifles are harmless versus that sort of protection. Additionally, you never are forced to loot ammo off of alien corpses, so it's got convenience going for it too.I've had bad experiences with power-armored troopers getting shot in the back with laser rifles by their mind controlled comrades.

But you're right that an all-plasma force is probably a mistake. It's just that I think the additional firepower makes it worthwhile to bring plenty of plasma weapons.


Yes, more often than not Las guns are perfectly sufficient. Heavy plasmas are often overkill.Given that there are quite a few enemies that take a lot of laser rifle fire to put down, my preference is to go for a mix of heavy plasma and laser rifles.


Nah, I'll just MC the target and have them come into the open... If I want them alive. You want to clear cover, have a floater push a plasma grenade out of its orb.It works, I'm not saying it doesn't. I guess I just prefer to be able to take out enemies by direct fire without relying on mind control for everything I encounter.


You forgot another advantage: Base Defense. Which do you prefer laying around the armory: Weapons the enemy can use, or weapons only you can use?The enemy can't pick up your weapons lying on the ground.

You're definitely right about the 80-item limit being a problem in the game. What I'm saying is that under a lot of conditions, the cost is worth it. You still have an opportunity cost because the heavy plasma clip you brought along is a blaster bomb you could have brought along. But with twice the damage output from each of the 35 shots in the clip, it's not a purely one-sided calculation.

[Winterwind]

Yeah, plasmas are definitely worth it. Especially Mutons are so much easier to defeat with them than with laser rifles... of course, once one has Psi-Amps and a few skilled users thereof, firepower stops being a real issue. ::smallbiggrin:

A pure plasma force can go a tad too quickly through their clips though, in particular if you switch to plasmas before the aliens start using Heavy Plasmas exclusively. You can produce more, of course, but the required Elerium is not exactly an unimportant resource itself.
Also, Sectopods. :smallwink:

[Ganurath]

You're definitely right about the 80-item limit being a problem in the game. What I'm saying is that under a lot of conditions, the cost is worth it. You still have an opportunity cost because the heavy plasma clip you brought along is a blaster bomb you could have brought along. But with twice the damage output from each of the 35 shots in the clip, it's not a purely one-sided calculation.Take those numbers and divide by the number of turns each weapon needs to lay down that damage, then apply an accuracy percentile modifier, then some arbitrary number to the BB Gun to factor in the impact of nigh-unlimited range and the ability to manuever around full cover.

[Winterwind]

The problem with Blaster Bombs is that they leave massive areas of smoke behind; if aliens who happen to be just outside the blast radius or are lucky enough to survive the strike*1, walk into it, they can use it as cover to sneak up on you.

*1 It once happened to me that I was fighting inside an UFO, and a Muton walks around the corner, just a few fields in front of my commander, survives the reaction shot, turns around and shoots him with a Blaster Bomb at point blank range. The detonation annihilates the Muton, half of the UFO and, if I remember correctly, claims one or two further aliens. My commander? The Flying Suit's armour values are completely ruined, he has lost some life... but doesn't even have Wounds. :smallbiggrin:

[Surrealistik]

I've had bad experiences with power-armored troopers getting shot in the back with laser rifles by their mind controlled comrades.

But you're right that an all-plasma force is probably a mistake. It's just that I think the additional firepower makes it worthwhile to bring plenty of plasma weapons.

I don't think my troops have ever been injured by mind controlled troops with lasguns. If they have, those injuries were probably minor. A heavy plasma by contrast will outright kill about half the time. Again, they're not something you put in the hands of an untested rookie when mind control is a threat.



Given that there are quite a few enemies that take a lot of laser rifle fire to put down, my preference is to go for a mix of heavy plasma and laser rifles.

While that's true, the vast majority can be easily handled with lasguns. Personally I do prefer HPs, but these are only found in the hands of soldiers with reliable psi ratings for reasons that are obvious.

[Dervag]

I don't think my troops have ever been injured by mind controlled troops with lasguns. If they have, those injuries were probably minor. A heavy plasma by contrast will outright kill about half the time. Again, they're not something you put in the hands of an untested rookie when mind control is a threat.Yes.

But yesterday, when Sgt. Ludmila got mind-controlled by a Sectoid Commander and shot one of her squad members in the back with a laser rifle, it killed the squaddie dead with the first or second shot. Straight through power armor.

So I know it can happen. My only excuse is that this was during the part of the game when you can't screen your troopers for psionics.

So you need something lighter than a laser rifle if your plan is to make the MC-vulnerable types harmless.


While that's true, the vast majority can be easily handled with lasguns. Personally I do prefer HPs, but these are only found in the hands of soldiers with reliable psi ratings for reasons that are obvious.Absolutely. The logic is impeccable. What I'm saying is that tactically it's a good plan to carry some heavy plasma, along with laser rifles and blaster launchers. You're right that you don't give it to rookies, but you want the extra direct firepower available. For instance, you might want to make holes in UFO interior walls without demolishing everything in the vicinity of your new door.

[Winterwind]

But yesterday, when Sgt. Ludmila got mind-controlled by a Sectoid Commander and shot one of her squad members in the back with a laser rifle, it killed the squaddie dead with the first or second shot. Straight through power armor.Could this discrepancy between yours and Surrealistik's experiences in this regard be, perhaps, due to the small armour difference between power and flying suits?
(Haven't played for too long to remember such details)

[Tom_Violence]

Also, TFTD isn't at all difficult (even on superhuman) if you play intelligently, cautiously and are tactical.

And incredibly patiently. I never found it particularly difficult in a tactical sense, but rather it just wore my down by the sheer number and length of missions. I got bored, not beaten.

Speaking of which, does anyone know of any decent mods for these games that alter such things as mission frequency and research times and whatnot? I'd love to get back into them again, but I just really don't have the time or endurance.

[Cubey]

Could this discrepancy between yours and Surrealistik's experiences in this regard be, perhaps, due to the small armour difference between power and flying suits?
(Haven't played for too long to remember such details)

The discrepancy comes from one factor: randomness. Damage in Ufo Defense and TftD (no idea about later games) is random. Very random. The damage listed in Ufopaedia is the average. The actual damage in each shot varies between 0 (yes, zero) and twice the average. [EDIT: It's 50-150% for explosive type weapons, like grenades. Just so you know] So a Laser Rifle deals 0 - 120 points of damage, which is multiplied by the enemy's resistance or weakness and later armour rating is deducted from what you get. Power Armor has the rear defense of 70, 80 for Flying Armor. That is enough to neutralize roughly 58%/66% of Laser Rifle shots outright, but the remaining ones can still hurt your soldiers.

[Moonshadow]

Can anyone just tell me which game is better, rather than having to try to read the other topic?

The only one I actually own is Apocalypse though >_>; I'd have to DL any others from Steam.

[Cubey]

Short answer: the first one, Ufo Defense. Others are good games even so.

[Surrealistik]

The discrepancy comes from one factor: randomness. Damage in Ufo Defense and TftD (no idea about later games) is random. Very random. The damage listed in Ufopaedia is the average. The actual damage in each shot varies between 0 (yes, zero) and twice the average. [EDIT: It's 50-150% for explosive type weapons, like grenades. Just so you know] So a Laser Rifle deals 0 - 120 points of damage, which is multiplied by the enemy's resistance or weakness and later armour rating is deducted from what you get. Power Armor has the rear defense of 70, 80 for Flying Armor. That is enough to neutralize roughly 58%/66% of Laser Rifle shots outright, but the remaining ones can still hurt your soldiers.

This. And you thought TF2 damage variance was bad. Much of the time your power/flying armoured troopers can survive las-beatings, especially if their forward armour faces the hit, although the rear armour can take a decent pounding too.

That said, I agree that a mix of weapons depending on the psi vulnerability, and lackthereof of your troops is best. Ultimately though, once I identify any psychic weaklings, they're gone; these are never on my strike team. Ironically, I typically have a mass of las-armed rookies along for the final mission because I usually don't have the patience to recruit every last troop properly for it. I like to think of them as disposable Guardsmen ala Warhammer 40k.

Also, I personally would argue that Apocalypse is 'best', but barely so.

[Tengu_temp]

No need to fire good soldiers just because they have low psi strength - you can always use them against aliens that don't use psionics.

[SolkaTruesilver]

No need to fire good soldiers just because they have low psi strength - you can always use them against aliens that don't use psionics.

I usually RP trough the game, and always purge my traitors and weak out of X-Com. If you have been infected with alien though process, you are clearly a sympatiser

[Cubey]

That reminds me, the last time I played Ufo: Enemy Unknown (the same thing as Ufo Defense, also known as X-Com: Enemy Unknown or X-Com: Ufo Defense), I have decided not to let anyone with psionic strength below 75 on Cydonia. As a result, three of my soldiers were complete rookies, barely able to shoot properly and with APs of a one-legged Sectoid.

My solution? Use them as fire support. To be more precise, give a Blaster Launcher and as many blaster bombs as they can carry to each of them. The bombs were a bad idea... they were too weak to be able to shoot if they had any in the pack, so they had to have them on the ground. But it still worked great.

Blaster Launchers are such a game breaker. It's not even funny.

[Dervag]

Could this discrepancy between yours and Surrealistik's experiences in this regard be, perhaps, due to the small armour difference between power and flying suits?
(Haven't played for too long to remember such details)It's possible, but the difference is small enough that almost any weapon which can kill a trooper wearing the one can kill a trooper wearing the other. 10 points of extra armor just isn't that much defense.


I usually RP trough the game, and always purge my traitors and weak out of X-Com. If you have been infected with alien though process, you are clearly a sympatiserBut it's only M2!


That reminds me, the last time I played Ufo: Enemy Unknown (the same thing as Ufo Defense, also known as X-Com: Enemy Unknown or X-Com: Ufo Defense), I have decided not to let anyone with psionic strength below 75 on Cydonia. As a result, three of my soldiers were complete rookies, barely able to shoot properly and with APs of a one-legged Sectoid.

My solution? Use them as fire support. To be more precise, give a Blaster Launcher and as many blaster bombs as they can carry to each of them. The bombs were a bad idea... they were too weak to be able to shoot if they had any in the pack, so they had to have them on the ground. But it still worked great.

Blaster Launchers are such a game breaker. It's not even funny.Keeping the bombs on the ground is, I gather, a common tactic. Not only does it save weight, it means that if your heavy weapons guy gets mind controlled, he's holding an empty bazooka. Aliens never pick up weapons off the ground, so the mind controlled guy can't load his next blaster bomb.

The disadvantage is that you have to stay on your pile of ammunition, which isn't that big a disadvantage.

[Surrealistik]

Blaster bombs and psi-amps are indeed gamebreaking. One of the reasons I find Apocalypse better than X-Com 1 is that it features superior balance. If you want to play through the latter with any semblance of challenge, you must refrain from using them.


It's possible, but the difference is small enough that almost any weapon which can kill a trooper wearing the one can kill a trooper wearing the other. 10 points of extra armor just isn't that much defense.

Flying armour will practically eliminate even the most remote chance of an instant kill from las-gun fire to the back, given that it can do a maximum of 40 damage to the rear. In any case, Las-rifles are pretty hard pressed to devastate a soldier in power armour, though it can happen, especially vs rear armour on full-auto.



No need to fire good soldiers just because they have low psi strength - you can always use them against aliens that don't use psionics.

The problem is that in the late game, you go up against the Ethereals almost all the time, and even their lowliest grunts are Psi capable. For those few missions that don't feature them, your A-team is probably superior due to their greater training.

[tarbrush]

There's a mod kicking round out there somewhere that can remove psi control from the game (you can still fear, but no dominate) and did a bunch of other nifty things, like actually enabling the scaled difficulty and randomly generating maps instead of using the same 20 or so basic maps.

I never had any problems with psi ratings. Bear in mind I ended up having about 80 troops spread over 8 bases when I launched for Cydonia it wasn't hard to weed out the ones with the crappy psi. Though I shed a small tear when I had to demote two of my favourites to guarding X-Com Australasia.

[bigity]

There's a mod kicking round out there somewhere that can remove psi control from the game (you can still fear, but no dominate) and did a bunch of other nifty things, like actually enabling the scaled difficulty and randomly generating maps instead of using the same 20 or so basic maps.

I never had any problems with psi ratings. Bear in mind I ended up having about 80 troops spread over 8 bases when I launched for Cydonia it wasn't hard to weed out the ones with the crappy psi. Though I shed a small tear when I had to demote two of my favourites to guarding X-Com Australasia.

XcomUtil is what you are thinking of.

TFTD balance alot of the blaster-bomb/psi-amp issues as well.

[pendell]

Can someone give me a quick tutorial on using psi-amps in X-com: UFO defense? I have won the game many times but I have to this day never successfully used a psi-amp.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[bigity]

Can someone give me a quick tutorial on using psi-amps in X-com: UFO defense? I have won the game many times but I have to this day never successfully used a psi-amp.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Well, you research all the necessary stuff, create the Psi Training Lab, test your soldiers. Give a psiamp to you guys with the strongest Psi Skill.

Use it on aliens and laugh.

Panic lowers morale, makes them panic/go berserk (Any X-Com player is familiar with what happens then)

Mind Control lets you control an alien unit like one of your troopers.

[Cubey]

Also, further training in Psi Laboratories gives them an increase in Psi Skill (Psi Strength is constant, and influences the soldiers' resistance to enemy psionics) on a monthly basis. But the gain is miniscule compared to what they get from spamming Psi-Amp attacks during a single mission, so train a different batch of soldiers each month to search for good anti-Psi folk with powerful Psi Strength. Hire fresh rookies if necessary - Psi Strength cannot be improved, other stats can.

[pendell]

Thank you both. I guess I just need to spam attacks with psi-amp more often. I only tried once or twice (which failed entirely) before giving up and using good ol' heavy plasma.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[tyckspoon]

Thank you both. I guess I just need to spam attacks with psi-amp more often. I only tried once or twice (which failed entirely) before giving up and using good ol' heavy plasma.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Distance factors in as well- psi attacks are less successful over long ranges. A trained psi-ops soldier can make up for that with skill and just sit in the transport next to the Blaster Launcher guy, but a new one who still needs practice may have to get out and get a little closer to get any successes.

[Carne]

Blaster bombs and psi-amps are indeed gamebreaking. One of the reasons I find Apocalypse better than X-Com 1 is that it features superior balance. If you want to play through the latter with any semblance of challenge, you must refrain from using them.

Yes and no. Straight up in Apoc you can load your troops up with dual-wielded laser rifles. High damage, reasonable accuracy (although it does fall off a bit when dual wielded) and decent replenishment of the consumables on the market.

Play the game in real-time mode, set your troops up at a choke point, and the enemy is toast (mostly - even with high reaction time they won't keep their weapons readied and still get hit by enemy fire).

Then, later on, the development of the enemy grenades and teleportation makes taking the fight to the alien dimension and blowing up mission objectives really really easy.

But weapons are better balances. One-shots only happen with the higher damage weapons against lower armor, though occasional lucky shots do happen, and armor isn't worthless.


Of the three official X-COM games, Apoc is definitely my favorite. It's much less arbitrary when it comes to dealing damage, there's better progression of technology (in UFO Defense you can get Heavy Plasma on mission 1, wheras heavy disrupters don't start showing up until later in Apoc), and the addition of human-neutral toxin weapons makes getting mind controlled less of a potential TPK.

Interceptor, even though I got my name into the game credits :smallbiggrin: wasn't my favorite, and isn't the same genre at all.

[Night10194]

I've never really gotten into Apoc. I lack a manual, having only recently acquired it on Steam, and thus I'm not really sure how to play compared to the other two. X-COM itself is one of the best games I've ever played, though.

On the weapons question, what creatures/enemies *don't* easily die against the Lasrifle? I know it often takes two shots to kill a Muton, but considering the sheer mass of fire a good team can put out with those things, and the savings in Elerium and headaches from not needing ammunition, well, I never used anything else once I got lasguns. I did just fine.

Also, best moment of my X-COM gaming comes from the first time I won the game. I was defending one of my bases and came around a corner, firing at one of the crew. He went down, but not dead, and the mission ended. When I finished and checked on what kind of Sectoid I'd picked up? Commander.

Oh. YES.

[Dervag]

Some alien terror units are tough enough that it takes many laser hits to down them. Heavy plasma provides a good extra punch for a fireteam's heavy weapon trooper. Also, heavy plasma can reliably penetrate most kinds of cover, and can even break through the interior walls of a UFO. Laser rifles can't, which limits your options when fighting inside UFOs and alien bases.

[dworkin]

The main attraction for me was the way everything can be destroyed. Everything, that bush, that tree, that insurmountable waist high fence. The early game is my favourite when all you're armed with is explosive weapons.

It rapidly becomes a case of Monty Python's, the art of not being seen.
"Which bush is the sectoid behind?"
BOOM!
BOOM!
BOOM! (Alien scream)
"It was the middle one."

[Cubey]

On the weapons question, what creatures/enemies *don't* easily die against the Lasrifle?

Anything heavily armored. Mutons have surprisingly little armor, they just have AP ammo resistance and lots of HP. Heavily armored enemies include:
-Cyberdiscs
-Ethereals
-Sectopods
Everything else gives up even to lasers, eventually. I believe that even a single shot makes a difference, so I arm my soldiers to the teeth with most damaging weapons they can carry.

[pendell]

Playing through X-com via gametap now, and I have re-learned two things:

1) Armor does help, but is heavily dependent on facing. Yesterday I had a marine in power armor get shot point blank in the chest 3 times with heavy plasma by a sectoid. She didn't take a point of damage.

2) It's been my experience that what laser rifles don't work well on alien grenades do. Although ethereals are just tough, period.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Cubey]

Alien Grenades are great if you need high scale destruction. I seem to recall you didn't get experience from kills by explosives (grenades, missiles etc), but I think it got fixed in most versions. Which is nice, as they are powerful and useful. Funny thing though - killing aliens with grenades doesn't only increase your Throwing Accuracy, but Shooting as well.

[Hzurr]

There are few things in that game that heavy plasma and alien granades can't solve.

I've actually never used psi-abilities, but I keep on meaning to try.

Actually, I don't think I've ever beaten the game.

[pendell]

'nother tip.

Someone mentioned the nasty habit of Chrysalids playing dead.

Grenades present a simple solution to that problem as well. Just grenade the body once it goes down. The body will be destroyed. End of problem. Of course, you also lose $20K that you would have got from the sale of the body ... but that's far better than having a 'dead' monster get back up and zombify your entire squad, eh?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[pendell]

'nother tip.

Someone mentioned the nasty habit of Chrysalids playing dead.

Grenades present a simple solution to that problem as well. Just grenade the body once it goes down. The body will be destroyed. End of problem. Of course, you also lose $20K that you would have got from the sale of the body ... but that's far better than having a 'dead' monster get back up and zombify your entire squad, eh?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Winterwind]

I've actually never used psi-abilities, but I keep on meaning to try.

Actually, I don't think I've ever beaten the game.That might be correlated. :smalltongue:

Psionics is far and above the most powerful weapon in the X-Com's arsenal, plasmas, alien grenades and blaster bombs a pitiful joke compared to its horrifying might. Basically, the instant you see an alien - you do not even have to shoot it, denying it a chance for a reaction shot - the alien stops considering you a target, drops its weapon or murders its next companion, looks around to find its other brethren (and thus doom them to being mind-controlled as well) and then marches up, unarmed, to a distance where your soldiers can shoot it at their leisure.
Seriously, once you have a few really powerful telepaths - those of the kind who take over Ethereal Commanders after a single try - the game becomes laughably easy. The most dangerous moment is until you see the first alien - as soon as you do that, it snowballs, as you take it over and use it to scout, kill and finally suicide to your armies.

[Archonic Energy]

The main attraction for me was the way everything can be destroyed. Everything, that bush, that tree, that insurmountable waist high fence. The early game is my favourite when all you're armed with is explosive weapons.

It rapidly becomes a case of Monty Python's, the art of not being seen.
"Which bush is the sectoid behind?"
BOOM!
BOOM!
BOOM! (Alien scream)
"It was the middle one."

for some fun take out all the ground level walls of a multi-story building...

:smalleek:

[Winterwind]

for some fun take out all the ground level walls of a multi-story building...

:smalleek:Kinda makes you wonder just how long ago and how effectively the aliens must have infiltrated our world, doesn't it? :smallbiggrin:

[factotum]

for some fun take out all the ground level walls of a multi-story building...

:smalleek:

See, that's why I really liked Apocalypse, because stuff in that could and WOULD collapse if you took out its supports. Sucked to be you if your squad happened to be standing underneath it at the time, of course...

[Cristo Meyers]

'nother tip.

Someone mentioned the nasty habit of Chrysalids playing dead.

Grenades present a simple solution to that problem as well. Just grenade the body once it goes down. The body will be destroyed. End of problem. Of course, you also lose $20K that you would have got from the sale of the body ... but that's far better than having a 'dead' monster get back up and zombify your entire squad, eh?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

A tactic that became known as Chryssalid Insurance with my friends.

"Chryssalid's got you down? Has a not-quite-dead bug eyed alien impregnated half of your squad with alien spawn? You need Chryssalid Insurance? Just pull the pin and throw! Chryssalid Insurance: for all your Don't Let Me Get Raped By Aliens needs!"

yeah, I'm a one-joke pony, get over it...

[pendell]

Well, you guys were right; I finished hitting cydonia last night with 2 psi-amps and troops trained to >55 and >75 psionic skill, respectively. It made things a LOT easier, as I could use controlled units as scouts, to take out those pesky cyberdiscs. A mind-controlled alien with a blaster launcher is a thing of beauty. And Chrysalids make excellent scouts with their high move. Though I still killed them quickly even so.

I was hoping to set the alien high command to shooting each other at the end, but by the time I got to the command center they had all panicked and were running around unarmed except for their psychic abilities, worse luck.

So, a follow up question:

How do you equip your ground troops in the early game , before new technology is researched?

My basic load consists of a rifle with 2 extra clips, 2 grenades, a prox grenade, a smoke grenade and a shock rod. I always carry the shock rod because it never runs out of ammunition. A near-worthless weapon in this game is better than no weapon at all.

To back it up, I have two guys carrying a heavy rocket launcher with an explosive rocket. everyone else in the squad carries one additional rocket to supply him as he runs dry.

I have also recently been experimenting with the autocannon with explosive rounds, but it's heavy and the high rate of fire doesn't seem to make up for the lack of punch. Still, the incendiary rounds seem just the thing for dealing with zombies and chryssalids.

Rounding out the squad is a single HWP rocket launcher. I prefer the rockets for their splash damage, their ability to utterly demolish house walls or garden fences, and the massive punch when they hit something.

What about you guys? Same loadout? Different?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Winterwind]

The majority of my team uses rifles (quickly swapped for laser rifles) with one additional clip (which hardly ever gets used), a grenade, a medi-kit and two electro-flares (three on the people who start at the exit of the Skyranger, with the third one already equipped in the hand) on each of the rifle-wielders, unless I actually happen to pay attention and notice the mission is going to take place in broad daylight, which I rarely do :smallredface:. Also a stun-rod on one or two of the people classified under 'noob', i.e. the type who is meant to walk in the front and take the alien reaction shots, while the experienced veterans stay somewhat safely in the back and use their superior accuracies to take out the enemies the noobs discover. The veterans hardly ever die, but the short life of the noobs is hardly enviable. :smallcool:
(this approach is necessary, because I do not load when soldiers die; this is the only way to make sure the good people do not perish. Usually I manage to prevent any losses at all with tactics, but sometimes, disaster strikes - better if it strikes down some irrelevant rookie with 40 shooting accuracy than my commander with thrice the amount)

I also have one auto-cannon with high explosive ammo (used against difficult to hit yet lightly armoured targets, since with explosive auto-shots one of those is bound to connect) and one rocket launcher where the big punch is needed; both are equipped with pistols (very quickly swapped for laser pistols) as sidearms and 2 additional clips/3 additional rockets. Those get replaced by a blaster bomb launcher and a small launcher later on.

Finally, I deploy a cannon tank (swapped for a laser tank and finally a plasma hover tank later) - the main job of the tank is to scout for the team, especially where it is too dangerous (even though the noobs are expected to die sooner or later, I still try to preserve their lives as best as I can), so it is likely to encounter enemy forces at fairly close range, which makes explosive weaponry rather unsuitable for its task. Besides, I always try to give the kills to soldiers instead of the tank, since they can gain experience, the tank cannot.

[Cristo Meyers]

Starting out: 12 with Rifle, extra clip, and grenade. 1 with a pistol and a stun rod, and another with the Autocannon with a set of HE rounds and a set of AP rounds. Seems to work just fine and occasionally I actually get lucky and stun an alien with the rod.

Once I get laser pistols everyone gets one and they keep it until endgame.

[Winterwind]

Once I get laser pistols everyone gets one and they keep it until endgame.Pistols? Not rifles? :smalleek:

I notice e-flares seem to lack popularity here. I cannot recommend them enough; during night missions, there is probably no other piece of equipment which is even remotely as useful as those little yellow sparkles of light.

Oh yeah, regarding my own composition, I forgot to mention that later on, 2-3 of the laser rifles (namely those on my best shooting soldiers) get replaced with heavy plasmas (with one additional clip) and the grenades get replaced with their alien counterpart.

[Cristo Meyers]

Pistols? Not rifles? :smalleek:



We're talking about starting equipment. I don't consider the rifle starting equipment. The pistol you'll usually be producing within the first month, rifles take a bit longer.

If you want to keep going: everyone has a laser pistol, 1 medpak, 4 Heavy Plasmas with an extra clip, everyone gets a grenade (usually alien), Stun Bomb launcher, mind probe, and everyone else gets a laser rifle.

[pendell]

I notice e-flares seem to lack popularity here. I cannot recommend them enough; during night missions, there is probably no other piece of equipment which is even remotely as useful as those little yellow sparkles of light.


I have an alternate solution: Don't go on night missions unless absolutely necessary. I plan missions around the position of the sun terminator. There is no UFO mission that can't wait until morning except a terror site. Even terror sites can often wait until dawn.

After all, there's an 80-item limit aboard a troopship, and every item put aside for a flare is one not going for grenades, rocket launchers, etc.

About how many electro-flares do you usually take?

I also note some prefer laser pistols to laser rifles; I'm curious. I prefer laser rifles because they are more accurate, hit harder, and have an auto-fire feature.

Why the laser pistol rather than the heavy laser? Isn't it about the same accuracy etc? A little heavier, yes, but also has more of a punch.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Cristo Meyers]

I take the laser pistol because it's an infinite ammo sidearm and the extra weight has sometimes built my squad's attributes to around the level of a Chrysallid before. The laser rifle is almost always my default weapon when I can manufacture it.

[Winterwind]

We're talking about starting equipment. I don't consider the rifle starting equipment. The pistol you'll usually be producing within the first month, rifles take a bit longer.I see... I was just confused by your statement that "...and they keep it until endgame.". Okay, that makes more sense now. :smallsmile:


I have an alternate solution: Don't go on night missions unless absolutely necessary. I plan missions around the position of the sun terminator. There is no UFO mission that can't wait until morning except a terror site. Even terror sites can often wait until dawn. Well, that works, too, but there is always the risk of a bigger amount of UFOs appearing over a short period of time, and one might run out of time to clean out all of the missions, especially on higher difficulties. Besides, with e-flares, it's not really that much of a big deal.


After all, there's an 80-item limit aboard a troopship, and every item put aside for a flare is one not going for grenades, rocket launchers, etc. I do not think I have ever come close to that limit becoming relevant for me.


About how many electro-flares do you usually take? 20 - that makes two per soldier, and a few more for the ones up front (since the heavy weapon carriers do not get any).


I also note some prefer laser pistols to laser rifles; I'm curious. I prefer laser rifles because they are more accurate, hit harder, and have an auto-fire feature.

Why the laser pistol rather than the heavy laser? Isn't it about the same accuracy etc? A little heavier, yes, but also has more of a punch. Laser pistols are lighter, so better suited on people who already carry a heavy weapon, and they are one-handed, so they do not lose accuracy when the other hand is in use.
For soldiers not wielding any other weapons, laser rifles are the default weapon in my team as well, save the ones who use heavy plasmas. Laser pistols are just a sidearm.
Heavy Lasers are, if you ask me, completely worthless - the slightly bigger punch they have compared to the laser rifle does not nearly make up for the worse accuracy and much worse time unit usage.

[Cristo Meyers]

Heavy Lasers are, if you ask me, completely worthless - the slightly bigger punch they have compared to the laser rifle does not nearly make up for the worse accuracy and much worse time unit usage.

Don't forget the lack of autofire.

[Winterwind]

Don't forget the lack of autofire.Right, and that. Which incidentally negates their higher damage output compared to the laser rifle as well for practical purposes, leaving them with no justification at all.

[Surrealistik]

Yes and no. Straight up in Apoc you can load your troops up with dual-wielded laser rifles. High damage, reasonable accuracy (although it does fall off a bit when dual wielded) and decent replenishment of the consumables on the market.

Play the game in real-time mode, set your troops up at a choke point, and the enemy is toast (mostly - even with high reaction time they won't keep their weapons readied and still get hit by enemy fire).

Then, later on, the development of the enemy grenades and teleportation makes taking the fight to the alien dimension and blowing up mission objectives really really easy.


Yes, Apoc did have its degenerate elements, all of which you've more or less covered. However, it was still better balanced than X-Com where blaster launcher and psi-amp spam took all the risk and challenge out of the game.



Anything heavily armored. Mutons have surprisingly little armor, they just have AP ammo resistance and lots of HP. Heavily armored enemies include:
-Cyberdiscs
-Ethereals
-Sectopods

Actually, Sectopods are horribly weak to laser based weaponry. Laser rifles are more effective against them than Heavy Plasmas as I recall.

Also yes, heavy lasers suck. Laser pistols have a use for those wielding a psi amp, grenade, or medipack in their other hand. It's also great for those mental weaklings likely to turn on your squad as it's almost entirely unable to penetrate power armour.

As for electroflares, I just took along an autocannon or two with incendiary rounds instead. More space efficient, and it doubles as a versatile weapon!

[Cristo Meyers]

Actually, Sectopods are horribly weak to laser based weaponry. Laser rifles are more effective against them than Heavy Plasmas as I recall.


Same with Cyberdiscs. Honestly I rank the discs more dangerous than the Sectopods. Sectopods don't go bloody nuclear when destroyed...

[Surrealistik]

The detonation isn't usually much of a problem. Personally I find Sectopods to be deadlier because their weapon does about as much damage as a Cyberdisc's and it autofires! This is to say nothing of their vastly superior durability. I believe one survived a near direct blaster bomb hit when I played on Superhuman.

[Cristo Meyers]

I just seem to keep getting jumped by the damn discs. If I don't spot them from far away they almost always seem to appear right in my face so I can't waste them without get blown up...

...but blasting a Cyberdisc when it's in the middle of a gas station is one of my guilty pleasures...

[Winterwind]

One question I never quite figured out - what situation exactly are Aimed Shots good for?

Snap Shots, okay, are for when you are down on your time units or only need to blast through a wall or something. Auto Shots are less accurate, but with three chances to hit, I still trust them more to connect than an Aimed Shot, plus, if several of them strike the target they are far more likely to kill it - with bad luck, even a Sectoid or a Floater can survive a single laser rifle hit. Therefore I almost always find the Auto Shot preferable.

About the only situation I see where the Aimed Shot might be better would be if there is a high risk of hitting another X-Com soldier or a civilian if the shot does not go precisely as it should.

But maybe I'm doing it completely wrong?

[Cristo Meyers]

Well, if you're like me, you've probably got a sniper somewhere in heavy cover that isn't going to move much. Aimed shots would be pretty useful in that situation.

Any other time, pretty much not. Better to take the Snap or Auto and use the remaining Time Units to get into cover or out of the line of fire.

[Winterwind]

Well, if you're like me, you've probably got a sniper somewhere in heavy cover that isn't going to move much. Aimed shots would be pretty useful in that situation.So do I - several usually (one good sniping position, as soon as one has flying suits, is in the cover of the fins on top of the Skyranger, I find) - but even for those I keep thinking Auto Shot might yield better results. I mean, sure, an Aimed Shot has a very good chance to hit - but with three shots, the likelihood at least one of them hits is very high as well. And there is always the possibility that several of them connect (and are needed)...

[Cristo Meyers]

Guess it's a matter of preference. On easier levels, you're going to get a lot more one-shot kills, so an Aimed Shot is going to be preferable. On higher levels it's a lot less likely, so you might want to take the chance with the Auto.

[pendell]

I find 'aimed shot' very useful, especially in the following situation:
1) High accuracy X-com soldier (>75% chance of hit with aimed shot).
2) long range (which is almost always, because I use HWPs to do my scouting)
3) One-shot kill potential (easily possible against sectoids or floaters, still likely when using Heavy plasma against anything but a cyberdisc or a sectopod -- and that's what blasters are for).

In these situations, it's frequent for me to go auto and watch my lasers get sprayed all over the place, frequently missing the subject by a kilometer or more. In those situations, a single well-aimed shot can make the difference between success and a nasty reaction shot which kills my scout.

One other thing ...
'aimed shot' seems less likely to hit my own people in the back.

Respectfully,

Brian P.