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View Full Version : An Overview of Tome of Battle



AmberVael
2008-10-23, 02:21 PM
I've heard a fair number of opinions about this book, some good, some bad. It seems to be a love or hate thing. For people curious about Tome of Battle, or the popular opinions about it, I give you this thread, which highlights some of the major points brought up about it, and adds in a few of my thoughts on the matter.

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h107/sjunderw/Other/ToBEmote.png

Comments are appreciated. :smallwink:




P.S. - this is the next in the series of my DnD emote comics. The other two comics can be found here:
Wizard and Fighter class fight. (http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h107/sjunderw/Other/ClassyFight.png)
The purpose of a fighter. (http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h107/sjunderw/Other/FighterPurpose.png)

hamishspence
2008-10-23, 02:24 PM
hee hee hee :smallbiggrin:

I like the book, but my grudge against Anime has more to do with way they usually animate mouths than anything else.

Keld Denar
2008-10-23, 02:24 PM
Did you draw that? If so, its pretty good. Kind of hillarious, if taken as satire too. I really hope you aren't being serious though, especially about the whole anime thing...

KIDS
2008-10-23, 02:24 PM
Wahahahahaahah! I had a huge grin on my face that grew with each panel I looked over. So awesome! Did you draw it yourself too?

AmberVael
2008-10-23, 02:28 PM
I really hope you aren't being serious though, especially about the whole anime thing...
I can see where people are coming from, but it definitely doesn't have to be that way. I do like my satire, so no, I'm not serious about everything. :smallwink:


And yes, I do draw these. They take maybe half an hour with inkscape.

Swiftest
2008-10-23, 02:29 PM
This was frankly amazing! You are to be congratulated! Also, your drawing style rocks! Head and hands for all expressions indeed!

streakster
2008-10-23, 02:31 PM
Sandra v. Abrajin was the best part, for me.

Brava, Vael. Brava.

Talya
2008-10-23, 02:45 PM
Awesome. Good work.

monty
2008-10-23, 02:50 PM
I'd give you an internet for that, but a warblade beat me up and took all of mine.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-10-23, 02:51 PM
I approve, and refuse to be drawn into another anime argument on this subforum.

Tengu_temp
2008-10-23, 02:56 PM
Of course, being a reject from Exalted is still cooler than 75% of non-Exalted stuff. </fanboi>

http://ffrpg.republika.pl/approve.PNG

Talya
2008-10-23, 02:59 PM
I love people using disintegrate for such comparisons. For one, it's a stylisticly wonderful spell. For another reason, it kinda sucks as far as offensive wizard spells go. (Check out the same level transmutation, Flesh to Stone, which is far better. Sure, Disintegrate also does some insignificant damage if they succeed on the save, but it also requires a ranged touch attack, while Flesh to Stone, which operates on the same DC and saving throw, does not. Admittedly, disintegrate has many additional uses that Flesh to Stone does not, but as a purely offensive spell, I don't like it much.) So a wizard using suboptimal attack choices still pwned her. :)


Of course, being a reject from Exalted is still cooler than 75% of non-Exalted stuff. </fanboi>

Exalted is a lot of fun. It is, however, unquestionably "Anime-styled." That it rises above that and manages to be good anyway is truly amazing. ;)

Starbuck_II
2008-10-23, 03:01 PM
I can see where people are coming from, but it definitely doesn't have to be that way. I do like my satire, so no, I'm not serious about everything. :smallwink:


And yes, I do draw these. They take maybe half an hour with inkscape.

Don't you mean serious about anything?

But yes, very good comic.
I like the Fighter Vs. Wiz but Fighter by itself while had it moments is less funny (though props for the G.I. Joe quote).

Oslecamo
2008-10-23, 03:01 PM
Sandra needs moar optimization. Killed by a disinitrigate? Shame on her for making con her dump stat.

The core defender needs moar optimization. Killed by a warblade? Shame on him for also using con as his dump stat.

The wizard needs moar optimization. Not magically dominating Sandra? Shame on him for wasting a perfectly good slave.

The drawing style doesn't need moar optimization.

Tengu_temp
2008-10-23, 03:30 PM
Exalted is a lot of fun. It is, however, unquestionably "Anime-styled."

You say that as if it was a bad thing.

Keld Denar
2008-10-23, 03:35 PM
I love people using disintegrate for such comparisons. For one, it's a stylisticly wonderful spell. For another reason, it kinda sucks as far as offensive wizard spells go. (Check out the same level transmutation, Flesh to Stone, which is far better. Sure, Disintegrate also does some insignificant damage if they succeed on the save, but it also requires a ranged touch attack, while Flesh to Stone, which operates on the same DC and saving throw, does not. Admittedly, disintegrate has many additional uses that Flesh to Stone does not, but as a purely offensive spell, I don't like it much.) So a wizard using suboptimal attack choices still pwned her. :)

A gal I used to play D&D with when I lived in Boston LOVED to cast disintegrate. Except that she seldom used it offensively (except vs undead). No, she lovingly refered to it as her "Greater Open" spell. :smallbiggrin:

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-23, 03:39 PM
A gal I used to play D&D with when I lived in Boston LOVED to cast disintegrate. Except that she seldom used it offensively (except vs undead). No, she lovingly refered to it as her "Greater Open" spell. :smallbiggrin:If the plan requires access to a Masterwork Dustpan, it probably needs to be rethought.

Kizara
2008-10-23, 03:55 PM
A gal I used to play D&D with when I lived in Boston LOVED to cast disintegrate. Except that she seldom used it offensively (except vs undead). No, she lovingly refered to it as her "Greater Open" spell. :smallbiggrin:

My cleric likes to use Cometfall in a similar fashion. Really, droping giant meteors on things FTW!

Lemur
2008-10-23, 04:03 PM
The only thing that bothers me when someone talks about something being "anime" is that they always conveniently forget all about wuxia. C'mon guys, give credit where credit is due.

NephandiMan
2008-10-23, 04:20 PM
Whatever you may think of the ToB's anime feel (otaku that I am, I love it), it's pretty hard to deny the affinity between the two when the authors themselves list it as one of their major influences on page 6.

Also, all three of these comics are quite amusing. I especially like that the Fighter in the third comic has the Buster Sword.

ocato
2008-10-23, 04:33 PM
Compare Sandra vs Abrajin to Harlowe vs Harkaitz for in-joke rofls.

Your emote comic is very funny, well done.

Talya
2008-10-23, 04:34 PM
The only thing that bothers me when someone talks about something being "anime" is that they always conveniently forget all about wuxia. C'mon guys, give credit where credit is due.

(Scrubbed} I generally do not care for Wuxia either...it's usually quite weird. You have to disregard all laws of physics without any explanation for why.

That said, I've liked a few of them. House of Flying Daggers had such a neat story that I could even look past the silliness.


Edit: This is not a reflection on Tome of Battle. "Anime-styled" or not, the book is awesome. Exalted is undeniably "Anime-styled," (I'd say "or Wuxia" but the pictures are all Anime) and I like it anyway.

Jerthanis
2008-10-23, 05:39 PM
{Scrubbed}. I generally do not care for Wuxia either...it's usually quite weird. You have to disregard all laws of physics without any explanation for why.

Here's why Wuxia films break the laws of physics: The Chinese Audience knows what real life Shaolin Monks are capable of. Feats like running on walls, doing handstands on the top of a balanced 10' pole, breaking bricks with your forehead, dragging boulders with your testicles... that's not the product of amazing fantasy... that's what Average Viewer Chan's second cousin can do. To impress a Chinese Audience, people have to fly.

Watching people who are truly proficient at their arts, whether it's martial arts or Olympic Diving... people can perform feats that you would swear were impossible if you weren't seeing them with your own eyes.

D&D is a world where those who are experts can routinely perform supernatural tasks just by having lots of Hit Dice or ranks in Diplomacy, Climb or any other example you want to think of, but as soon as you call it "Sapphire Nightmare Blade" it's unrealistic.

RPGuru1331
2008-10-23, 05:52 PM
I'm so tempted to ask for an explanation, but I'm sure I'll be sorry if I do...

And that's why you got an 8, not a 0.

@^: What is your avatar, above the sign? Simple curiousity.

@OP: I was amused, since I missed your request for comments. I liked the evasion at the end too, though for maximum satire some angry blush in that last panel would serve what's her face well (Make it look like *yes*, she really is an Exalted reject)

Townopolis
2008-10-23, 06:00 PM
Needs a panel or two devoted to the "more options" aspect of the book. Perhaps one panel for spellcaster VS. core fighter (I power attack for full again) and another for spellcaster VS. ToB, or perhaps all three in one panel. You could also, of course, choose option C (something I haven't mentioned).

B+

Mr Pants
2008-10-23, 06:02 PM
These comics are great, very lulzy. nice work. I love how everyone can agree to hate the monk.

Knaight
2008-10-23, 06:10 PM
Hilarious, and the head and hands drawing style works well. Also as far as the average viewer chan's second cousin, hardly. What shaolin monks are capable of is impressive, but they are not a large group, and most can't do that.

XiaoTie
2008-10-23, 06:11 PM
Those were some funny comics. Kudos Vael

Talya
2008-10-23, 07:30 PM
Here's why Wuxia films break the laws of physics: The Chinese Audience knows what real life Shaolin Monks are capable of. Feats like running on walls, doing handstands on the top of a balanced 10' pole, breaking bricks with your forehead, dragging boulders with your testicles... that's not the product of amazing fantasy... that's what Average Viewer Chan's second cousin can do. To impress a Chinese Audience, people have to fly.

Watching people who are truly proficient at their arts, whether it's martial arts or Olympic Diving... people can perform feats that you would swear were impossible if you weren't seeing them with your own eyes.

I've watched real martial arts experts. They don't look like that.



D&D is a world where those who are experts can routinely perform supernatural tasks just by having lots of Hit Dice or ranks in Diplomacy, Climb or any other example you want to think of, but as soon as you call it "Sapphire Nightmare Blade" it's unrealistic.


As I said, I have no issues with Tome of Battle, or Exalted (in fact I love them both). I was just commenting that I don't like Wuxia any more than I like Anime. It's not an overall hatred in either case, I can count on one hand the number of Wuxia films I found enough redeeming qualities in to like, and there's even some anime that I've liked (Robotech -- yes, I'm a girl who grew up in the 80's -- and Appleseed come to mind.) They're just few and far between. (Appleseed Ex Machina sucked, though. :( Very disappointed.)

Inyssius Tor
2008-10-23, 07:39 PM
...

These cookies have been in my sig through many threads. Bear them well.
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g280/Inyssius/788410-1.jpg

Frosty
2008-10-23, 07:54 PM
Vael, you made my day complete.

Thurbane
2008-10-23, 08:19 PM
Bob: ToB roxxorz! :smallsmile:
Jim: No, ToB suxxorz! :smallfurious:

Wash, rinse, repeat...:smallbiggrin:

Starbuck_II
2008-10-23, 08:23 PM
As I said, I have no issues with Tome of Battle, or Exalted (in fact I love them both). I was just commenting that I don't like Wuxia any more than I like Anime. It's not an overall hatred in either case, I can count on one hand the number of Wuxia films I found enough redeeming qualities in to like, and there's even some anime that I've liked (Robotech -- yes, I'm a girl who grew up in the 80's -- and Appleseed come to mind.) They're just few and far between. (Appleseed Ex Machina sucked, though. :( Very disappointed.)

Wait, your a girl...I thought all girls on the internet were really guys, I'm shocked :smallbiggrin:

Robotech was good, but I never saw Appleseed.

Cuddly
2008-10-23, 08:23 PM
Wait, your a girl...I thought all girls on the internet were really guys, I'm shocked :smallbiggrin:

Robotech was good, but I never saw Appleseed.

She is really a guy.

sonofzeal
2008-10-23, 08:27 PM
I couldn't agree more.

Legendary thread.

http://www.jinx.com/Content/Product/1254p_9c_1b.jpg

monty
2008-10-23, 08:27 PM
Ah yes, the internet. Where the men are men, the women are men, and the children are FBI agents.

Pie Guy
2008-10-23, 09:15 PM
SHHHH! You'll blow my cov-, I mean , what are FBI agents?

Jerthanis
2008-10-24, 04:37 AM
I've watched real martial arts experts. They don't look like that.

Uh... this must be a simple difference of experience then, because I've seen all the things I described before. Some of them I've seen live in front of me, others just on video. I'd describe most of those as "clearly leaning toward the supernatural when performed by humans, even if they are theoretically entirely possible."



As I said, I have no issues with Tome of Battle, or Exalted (in fact I love them both). I was just commenting that I don't like Wuxia any more than I like Anime. It's not an overall hatred in either case, I can count on one hand the number of Wuxia films I found enough redeeming qualities in to like, and there's even some anime that I've liked (Robotech -- yes, I'm a girl who grew up in the 80's -- and Appleseed come to mind.) They're just few and far between. (Appleseed Ex Machina sucked, though. :( Very disappointed.)

Yeah, I get that... but there are still people who don't understand how hypocritical it is to have a midlevel Fighter jump out of an airplane and faceplant only to stand up, brush himself off and go on to win a marathon, and consider it fine, but when a Swordsage jumps really high with a Swift Action, it's unrealistic... or how a high level Rogue can stab someone with a dagger and do enormous amounts of damage (more damage than, say, falling out of an airplane) by targeting miscellaneous "vitals" and it's fine, but if a Warblade does damage equivalent to a Concentration check, it's unrealistic. That was the main point I had with the second half of my post... that such positions are hypocritical. I'm sorry that I ascribed you to this position by not making the distinction between my first and second issues more clear.

Also, about the issue of there not being a lot of Shaolin Monks, and Average Chinese people not really being THAT familiar with them... it's true, to an extent... culturally we're a lot more divorced from that lifestyle than the average Chinese person is. The average Chinese person probably knows at least as much about Shaolin as the average American knows about, say, the Church of Latter Day Saints.

bosssmiley
2008-10-24, 05:01 AM
SHHHH! You'll blow my cov-, I mean , what are FBI agents?

They're the guys who organise the party van. :smallbiggrin:

@Vael, you rock.

KIDS
2008-10-24, 05:13 AM
In my opinion, Time Stands Still and the 'flashy' ToB maneuvers are more like Prince Nuada, Matrix (disclaimer: 1) or some other super-fast/powerful but still believable fight, where people do incredible but not ridiculous things.

The Wuxia movies (there are good and bad, the complaints that I have against them are mostly story-based...) take this believability, bash its head against the wall until it cracks open and throw it into a fire.

But I wouldn't place ToB into Wuxia, honestly. It just emulates the first listing much better than anything from PHB/Completes, and that is its function for me. Emulating Wuxia will always remain something based on description alone.

p.s. the cookies were awesome!

Roderick_BR
2008-10-24, 05:48 AM
You have to disregard all laws of physics without any explanation for why.
Like in D&D :smallwink:

And to the OP: Funny comic :smallbiggrin:

Drascin
2008-10-24, 05:51 AM
If the plan requires access to a Masterwork Dustpan, it probably needs to be rethought.

No, if a plan doesn't end you needing a masterwork dustpan to carry your enemy around, then it's when it has to be rethought :smallbiggrin:

InaVegt
2008-10-24, 05:52 AM
Like in D&D :smallwink:

Only past level 5 (assuming 3.x).

Also, it should be noted that they made long jump unrealistic in 3.5, but that can be easily fixed by subtracting 5 feet from the total distance jumped according to the check. (Like how it was in 3.0)

For details (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html)

Serenity
2008-10-24, 09:19 AM
At a run, your average D&D character, at 1st level, can cover ten feet in a second, 60 feet in six seconds. A 1st level human barbarian, 80 feet in six seconds.

Think about that for a moment before we talk about what's unrealistic.

jcsw
2008-10-24, 09:34 AM
Actually, runs are at x4 speed (unarmored) so 120ft per 6 seconds.

AmberVael
2008-10-24, 10:45 AM
At a run, your average D&D character, at 1st level, can cover ten feet in a second, 60 feet in six seconds. A 1st level human barbarian, 80 feet in six seconds.

Think about that for a moment before we talk about what's unrealistic.


Actually, runs are at x4 speed (unarmored) so 120ft per 6 seconds.

Incidentally....

120ft * 10 = 1,200ft in a minute.

1200ft * 60 = 72,000ft in an hour.

72,000 / 5,280 = 13.63 (repeating) miles per hour.

Wow. Yeah, totally unrealistic. The average human can run 15 mph, after all. :smallyuk:

Stupendous_Man
2008-10-24, 11:08 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v422/toddsun/CAUTION049.gif
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