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InaVegt
2008-10-23, 04:21 PM
Okay, for the purposes of the setting I'm developing, I need to know how difficult this monster is to defeat under the houserules I'm using.

The houserules are: e6 (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=352719)
Armour as DR (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/armorAsDamageReduction.htm)
Vitality/Wound points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm)

Note that, unlike standard V/WP is reserve VP for elite encounters, such as this beast.

Threehorned behemoth CR ?
Neutral Gargantuan Animal
Senses: Scent, Low Light Vision, Listen +22, Spot +22
Init: +0
Languages: none

AC: 16, touch 6, flat-footed 16 (-4 size, +10 natural)
Wound Points: 151 Vitality points: 504 HD: 33d8
DR: 3/-
Fort +27, Ref +18, Will +17

Speed: 40'
Melee: Gore +31 (3d8+24)
Space: 20' Reach: 15'
Base Atk: +20 Grapple: +48
Atk Options: Charge, Trample (3d12+24)

Str 42, Dex 11, Con 32, Int 1, Wis 18, Cha 9
Feats: Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Toughness (9 times)
Skills: Listen +22, spot +22
Level Adjustment: --
Possessions: none

What I'd like to know is whether it is possible to beat this, and how difficult it would be.

Cuddly
2008-10-23, 04:35 PM
With a touch AC of 6, a flying wizard with a wand of acid arrow could take it down. Anything that does int damage, cha damage, or dex damage would also pretty much stop it outright.

Ego whip does cha damage, and is only a second level power.
A rogue with the maiming strike feat (*might* qualify for it by level 6) can do 1 point of cha damage. With only a spot of only +22, a flying rogue can easily get the jump on it, attack, then move away, dealing cha damage.

Ray of Stupidity, a second level spell, does int damage. A single one of those would take the creature out.

A Shivering Touch spell, preferably reached, would do 3d6 dex damage. Of course, Shivering Touch pretty much kills EVERYTHING.

InaVegt
2008-10-23, 04:45 PM
The flying wizard with acid arrow wand does indeed work (As far as I can see). Anything that requires a save will have trouble, however. As it's lowest save bonus is +17, which makes it pretty likely it'll make any save.

Cuddly
2008-10-23, 04:49 PM
See edit.


Also, anything that does damage without a save could slowly kill it that's based on a touch attack, such as the Orb spells, or even the lowly acid splash or ray of frost.

Using wraithstrike (second level spell) that makes all your melee attacks for a round touch attacks could do it.

With enough miss chance stuff up (mirror image, concealment effects, something that gives improved invis, like that shadowhand maneuver), a hasted rogue UMDing a wand of wraithstrike and twf could probably stabbity it to death.

lord_khaine
2008-10-23, 04:55 PM
but Ego whip is save for , and at lv 6 it can do 2d4 points of char dam, while shiwering touch doesnt allow a safe at all.

still those 2 are the extreme situations that proberly wont come up, and that monster does seem brutal enough to be at least around a CR 9

InaVegt
2008-10-23, 05:02 PM
A big problem with things that require melee attacks. 15 ft reach. You'll be AoO'd for 37.5 damage. Not to mention that if you have to attack multiple rounds you're getting more of those.

Starbuck_II
2008-10-23, 05:08 PM
Okay, for the purposes of the setting I'm developing, I need to know how difficult this monster is to defeat under the houserules I'm using.

What I'd like to know is whether it is possible to beat this, and how difficult it would be.

It has no immunities and but whoa, low AC, but sweet Saves (will make everything but on a 1).
So Save Partial and No Save are best best versus the beast.

I note that the beast is hard to sneak up on. Though, once you do, Initiative +0.

Any books allowed?
I need to make sure I understand rules-
So in E 6 you can't create anything above caster 6-8 (depending if find way to boost caster by 1 or two points like Death Knell).

So +2 weapons/armor are the highest enhancement to hit/damage allowed to be made (but can have as many special abilities as can afford still).

+2 rings/Necklace of NA are also max usually. Although, Rings can't be created due to Feats requirements I guess (caster 12).

Stat items don't have that limitation happily.

Bracers of Armor limited to +2.

InaVegt
2008-10-23, 05:14 PM
Don't forget the caster level reqs for weapon enchants. There aren't many weapon enchants of CL 6 and lower.

Tokiko Mima
2008-10-23, 05:14 PM
A melee specializing in Ubercharge could level this beatie in a single charge attack, but I'm sure you knew that. Just mention it because the way e6 works (feats instead of levels), most optimal melee eventually becomes an ubercharger simply because those are the best feats to take.

It's AC is not so great, and it's touch AC stinks. If the characters have spells or abilities that work against those, great. It's a lot of hitpoints to work through, so I expect you'd want to adopt a strategy of firing from a distance. Solid Fog would also work quite well to constrain the beast for 4+ rounds.

The saves are kinda insanely high though, for e6. I wouldn't try any spells that allow saves.

Starbuck_II
2008-10-23, 05:17 PM
Don't forget the caster level reqs for weapon enchants. There aren't many weapon enchants of CL 6 and lower.

Actually, no, Caster level doesn't matter unless the weapon enchant uses a higher level spell (need the mimimun then): read the errata.

Caster levels listed are for dispelling purposes only.

Wait, you can create rings: according to this feat on the OP's link":
Wondrous Rings (General)
Prerequisites: 6th level, Craft Wondrous Item
Benefit: You treat rings as wondrous items for the purpose of meeting item creation prerequisites. You must still meet caster level requirements for any ring you create.

So +2 rings exist.

InaVegt
2008-10-23, 05:20 PM
Actually, no, Caster level doesn't matter unless the weapon enchant uses a higher level spell (need the mimimun then): read the errata.

Caster levels listed are for dispelling purposes only.

I was under the impression that d20srd.org included the latest errata...

Cuddly
2008-10-23, 05:42 PM
A big problem with things that require melee attacks. 15 ft reach. You'll be AoO'd for 37.5 damage. Not to mention that if you have to attack multiple rounds you're getting more of those.

Can't AoE in a surprise round, and with such a low spot check, the rogue has a pretty good chance of going unseen. Combined with miss chances, as opposed to AC, he gets very hard to hit.


It's AC is not so great, and it's touch AC stinks. If the characters have spells or abilities that work against those, great. It's a lot of hitpoints to work through, so I expect you'd want to adopt a strategy of firing from a distance. Solid Fog would also work quite well to constrain the beast for 4+ rounds.

Solid Fog doesn't help you at all, in this case.

InaVegt
2008-10-23, 05:56 PM
Can't AoE in a surprise round, and with such a low spot check, the rogue has a pretty good chance of going unseen. Combined with miss chances, as opposed to AC, he gets very hard to hit.

Tell me if I'm missing something here, but assuming skill focus, maxed ranks, +4 size, and +5 dex, I'm getting +21 on hide, below the beasts +22 spot.

Tokiko Mima
2008-10-23, 06:03 PM
Can't AoE in a surprise round, and with such a low spot check, the rogue has a pretty good chance of going unseen. Combined with miss chances, as opposed to AC, he gets very hard to hit.

I assume you mean AoO, since there are plenty of AoE spells you can cast in a suprise round. More specifically you can't make an AoO while flat-footed unless you have something like Combat Reflexes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#combatReflexes) which this critter doesn't have.


Solid Fog doesn't help you at all, in this case.

I'm curious.. what makes you say that?


Tell me if I'm missing something here, but assuming skill focus, maxed ranks, +4 size, and +5 dex, I'm getting +21 on hide, below the beasts +22 spot.

It's probably a Whisper gnome or a rogue using an invisibility spell.

Starbuck_II
2008-10-23, 06:08 PM
Tell me if I'm missing something here, but assuming skill focus, maxed ranks, +4 size, and +5 dex, I'm getting +21 on hide, below the beasts +22 spot.

Invisibilty (2nd level spell) adds 20 if moving and 40 if standing still.

Cuddly
2008-10-23, 06:12 PM
Tell me if I'm missing something here, but assuming skill focus, maxed ranks, +4 size, and +5 dex, I'm getting +21 on hide, below the beasts +22 spot.

+7 from items (MW tool, +5 cloak), +12 for being a Reduced kobold (+4 small, +4 slight build [counts as one size category smaller], +4 from shrinking one more step).

So that's +40.


I assume you mean AoO, since there are plenty of AoE spells you can cast in a suprise round. More specifically you can't make an AoO while flat-footed unless you have something like Combat Reflexes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#combatReflexes) which this critter doesn't have.

Yeah, right, that's what I meant:smalleek:


I'm curious.. what makes you say that?

Because Solid Fog prevents you from doing anything to it, and gives it 4 unmolested rounds to move closer to you?

Mr Pants
2008-10-23, 06:16 PM
Tell me if I'm missing something here, but assuming skill focus, maxed ranks, +4 size, and +5 dex, I'm getting +21 on hide, below the beasts +22 spot.

Well if you're not really trying for a super-hide it would be difficult. But really, hide is one of the easiest skills to boost into ludicrous levels. Just take any small creature and give him a cloak of elvenkind and add that to your build and you've got a +30, make him a whisper gnome for +34, or a dark whisper gnome for +40.

Wait, I just remembered not everyone munchkins their hide like I do.

Cuddly
2008-10-23, 06:19 PM
It's not that hard to get high hide checks by using a small creature with a potion of Reduce Person.

Zeful
2008-10-23, 06:24 PM
+7 from items (MW tool, +5 cloak), +12 for being a Reduced kobold (+4 small, +4 slight build [counts as one size category smaller], +4 from shrinking one more step).

So that's +40.
Core Kobolds don't have slight build.



Because Solid Fog prevents you from doing anything to it, and gives it 4 unmolested rounds to move closer to you?
More specifically Solid fog breaks line of sight making the creature impossible to hit with targeted spells, only area of effect spells will work within the fog. Granted the creature can only move 10ft per round in exchange.

Cuddly
2008-10-23, 06:32 PM
Core Kobolds don't have slight build.

Core also lacks ray of stupidity & ego whip, as well as the orb spells. Your point?

Tokiko Mima
2008-10-23, 06:38 PM
Because Solid Fog prevents you from doing anything to it, and gives it 4 unmolested rounds to move closer to you?

Except that it's 4 rounds to direct AoE and targetted spells and position your melee and ranged attackers. It keeps the critters 15' reach from mattering much if your melees are sitting at the edges of the fog, ready to AoO the monster as it moves through their threatened areas trying to get out of the cloud. It also negates it's ability to charge and/or retreat, too.

Cuddly
2008-10-23, 06:54 PM
Except that it's 4 rounds to direct AoE and targetted spells and position your melee and ranged attackers. It keeps the critters 15' reach from mattering much if your melees are sitting at the edges of the fog, ready to AoO the monster as it moves through their threatened areas trying to get out of the cloud. It also negates it's ability to charge and/or retreat, too.

There aren't a whole lot of AoE spells in e6 that don't allow a save & will matter against this SoB.

The 4 rounds are nice for buffing, though. I'm not sure if I'd want to melee with this, as 3 hits will drop the tank.

Mr Pants
2008-10-23, 06:56 PM
Core Kobolds don't have slight build.


It's an alternate statting of the kobold that was posted somewhere on the wotc site. It actually makes kobolds playable.

Starbuck_II
2008-10-23, 08:30 PM
There aren't a whole lot of AoE spells in e6 that don't allow a save & will matter against this SoB.

The 4 rounds are nice for buffing, though. I'm not sure if I'd want to melee with this, as 3 hits will drop the tank.

Grab a couple commoners to throw acid flask at the beast in the Solid Fog: Those add up and saves don't matter (touch AC).

Cuddly
2008-10-23, 08:38 PM
Grab a couple commoners to throw acid flask at the beast in the Solid Fog: Those add up and saves don't matter (touch AC).

Mostly a waste of time, considering a ray of stupidity will literally work 95% of the time.

Arbitrarity
2008-10-23, 08:42 PM
There aren't a whole lot of AoE spells in e6 that don't allow a save & will matter against this SoB.

The 4 rounds are nice for buffing, though. I'm not sure if I'd want to melee with this, as 3 hits will drop the tank.

What level is solid fog again? What's the highest level spell a level 6 character can cast?

Therefore, solid fog does not help.

Cuddly
2008-10-23, 08:45 PM
What level is solid fog again? What's the highest level spell a level 6 character can cast?

Therefore, solid fog does not help.

:smallconfused:
That's a funny tone to take when agreeing with someone.

[edit]
Oh. It's 4th level. Lol.
Yeah, Fly, in whatever case, would be the superior choice.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2008-10-23, 09:16 PM
Almost impossible, without resorting to a lot of magic or ability damage.

First off, it's got over 600 hp, counting both Wound Points and Vitality Points. That's a TON for a level 6 character to take on. It's attack bonus ensures a hit, and most characters will die in a single blow (possibly two attacks). It will also never fail a save except on a natural one, as save DCs don't go that high in E6.

Basically, this monster will waste a melee or damage set group of characters. Mages will stand a better chance, but I'd say that a TPK is likely, if not a surety (barring the methods already stated, which largely depend on knowing the creature's stats in advance, which I'm assuming your player's won't).

Cuddly
2008-10-23, 09:40 PM
If ego whip, ray of stupidity, or shivering touch are allowed (I would fully understand their ban), then there is no reason not to have them as spells known, or as a scroll or something. A ray of stupidity or two, from a scroll, is guaranteed to bring down just about anything with an int of 5 or so.

A ranger or druid using wild empathy could potentially calm it. Hide from Animals means the whole party can walk around it, or position themselves to hit it very hard.

I'm assuming this would be some sort of boss monster, not just a random encounter, which means the players would have some time to research it
(It's of the animal type, very strong, not too bright, lots of HP, easy target for touch attacks, that sort of thing), and then could come back with the right tools.

If they just stumbled upon it and thought "Hey, cool, a gargantuan creature, let's attack!" then they would definitely get ripped. If it attacked them, and they had some contingency abilities (flight, invis) they could escape easily.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-10-23, 10:07 PM
Warlock 6, Fell Flight, spam Eldritch Blast.

A Half-Dragon with the feat Dragon Breath (RotD) and a line-shaped breath weapon and the ability to fly (large, spell) would be able to fly out of its reach and breathe every 1d4 rounds, one less with Recover Breath (DCN), until it dies. Maybe get Entangling Exhalation (RotD) if it could run away faster than you can fly, and also get Improved Flight (RotW) if maneuverability would be an issue.


In that system, any spontaneous spellcaster with Versatile Spellcaster (RotD) can take the feat Expanded Casting from the E6 link to gain a 4th level spell slot, and Expanded Knowledge to gain a 4th level spell known. After taking Expanded Casting twice you can now cast 5th level spells, so the next Expanded Casting grants a 5th level spell slot. Two feats later and you've got a 6th level spell slot, and so forth. A class that knows every spell on its spell list of a level it can cast, such as Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and Warmage, would be able to eventually access 9th level spells. Your caster level would still be a bit low, but you'd be able to cast those spells regardless. Get Heighten Spell with Earth Spell (RoS) and you'll be able to get a decent caster level on some of your lower level spells, while improving the DCs. A Sorcerer 6 with Versatile Spellcaster and Expanded Knowledge for Lesser Globe of Invulnerability would win against another spellcaster.