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Gorbash
2008-10-23, 05:42 PM
So, our last session ended in an arguement whether are Wizards better than Cleric, with me of course, reprsenting the Wizard. Today, the friend that represented the Cleric called me and told me he wanted a duel. 20th lvl 1v1. But, since I'm not that familiar with high lvl spellcasting (My wizard is 10th lvl, so my knowledge isn't that good on spells past 6th lvl), I really need help on this one, since I want to pummel him good.

My plan was Celerity + Time Stop + some disabling/annihilating spells and that's where you come along. Basically, anything that's in the books goes. So feel free to make suggestions on metamagicked enervations etc.

Also, can I somehow counter his dispels? With ring of counterspelling perhaps?

Stupendous_Man
2008-10-23, 05:44 PM
For humiliation purposes, have your wizard be a little elf girl.

Sinfire Titan
2008-10-23, 05:49 PM
Celerity can be abused so easily, it isn't funny. Start with a Limited Wish for Favor of the Martyr, follow up with the 4th level Celerity to get another spell off (if you can be a Sorcerer or Ultimate Magus, Arcane Fusion for Celerity and a 1st level spell is a good way to open). Repeat each round, replacing the Wish with something more useful (like Grease or Dispel Magic). Use the first spell of a round to bait his counterspell.

If you want to prevent him from casting spells, nothing says "No!" like a readied Disentegrate to the face. Hitting him while he is casting forces a concentration check, and is vastly superior to normal dispelling or counterspelling. Granted, you need to keep a Celerity prepared in case he changes tactics on you mid-round and just charges your ass. Make sure that only you and the DM know the trigger for your Readied action.

Ganurath
2008-10-23, 05:52 PM
For humiliation purposes, have your wizard be a little elf girl.Tallfellow halfling!

How you deal with him will depend on how the duel plays out: Initiative and suprise, or following the traditional lethal spellduel rules in Complete Arcane? Either way, CoDzilla takes some nasty heat from dispel effects and multiple exhaustion spells (two guarantees success, no save needed)

Also, Energy Drain is gold against any caster. Make sure to dispel death ward first, though.

kladams707
2008-10-23, 05:56 PM
High level spellduel, cleric vs. wizard... you might want to consider initiate of the sevenfold veil. Complete Arcane.

Cast all those spells through wards, kaleidoscopic doom might be nice, though it depends on dispel. Still. Great way to protect and make the cleric waste spells. Wards are countered w/ certain spells, so put up wards in which spells that counter it are not cleric spells (I'm not that familiar, so I don't know if that's all wards, or just some).

Flickerdart
2008-10-23, 06:02 PM
Remember to Contingency some Celerity as soon as combat starts, As far as I know, that lets you act in a surprise round, so even if he wins initiative, you still crush him like a bug beacuse of the Maximized (with a rod) Time Stop you use before combat even starts and the Maximized Delayed Blast Fireballs you can rain down on him from that Time Stop.

Smeggedoff
2008-10-23, 06:11 PM
If you have access to arcane reach ,or even know how to make good use of a familiar, prepare a Maximised shivering touch or two, nothing says humiliation like 18 dex down the drain with no save.

or heck, timestop, move action, poke (-18dex), poke (-18 dex)
if he's got more than 36 dex as a cleric I'd start calling shenanigans..or poke im again

Flickerdart
2008-10-23, 06:19 PM
If you have access to arcane reach ,or even know how to make good use of a familiar, prepare a Maximised shivering touch or two, nothing says humiliation like 18 dex down the drain with no save.

or heck, timestop, move action, poke (-18dex), poke (-18 dex)
if he's got more than 36 dex as a cleric I'd start calling shenanigans..or poke im again

While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell.

That's why Delayed Blast Fireballs work better, they're Delayed until Time Stop ends. Forcecage + Silence, Solid Fog, Tentacles or another persistent effect. Alternately, some Gate action for a few allies who proceed to crush him like a grape.

kladams707
2008-10-23, 06:24 PM
Aren't creatures invulnerable to all your attacks when your under the effect of Time stop?

That's why I like the delayed fireball idea b/c no one's being targeted and as someone posted, you can wait until after time stop to detonate them.

Gorbash
2008-10-23, 06:34 PM
No prestige classes, only Wizard. No rules concerning duel, so I'm assuming some arena or undefined space.

How about this... When I cast (mazimized) Time Stop - in the first round I'm dazed, since I cast Celerity. On the second round I cast Imbue Familiar with Spell ability. Third round I summon 1d3 of Fiendish Tyrannosauruses. Familiar casts say... Wall of stone around him. Fourth round I cast (maximized) Maw of Chaos, Familiar casts Fly. Fifth round I cast quickened true strike, move up, ready action to cast Mazimized Energy Drain when Time Stop ends, familiar does the same but with Enervation.

Time stop ends - he takes 120 dmg from maw of chaos, has to make a will save or be dazed, gets 8 negative lvls from me and possibly 1d4 from familiar and 1-3 Fiendish Tyrannosaurs charge him. How does that sound?

holywhippet
2008-10-23, 06:35 PM
One tactic to use, and to be aware of, is summoning in some fiendish wolves or, better yet, fiendish dire wolves. Don't have them immediately attack, just have them surround your opponent with readied actions to attempt an attack if they start casting. Since they are wolves, they also get a trip attempt if they succeed in their attack. Your opponent can't do much casting if they are flat on their back most of the time - not to mention the attacks of opportunities caused by casting.

holywhippet
2008-10-23, 06:37 PM
How about this... When I cast (mazimized) Time Stop - in the first round I'm dazed, since I cast Celerity.

You can do that? Maximized makes a spell take up a slot that is 3 levels higher. Since time stop is already level 9, how can you maximise it?

snoopy13a
2008-10-23, 06:37 PM
Aren't creatures invulnerable to all your attacks when your under the effect of Time stop?

That's why I like the delayed fireball idea b/c no one's being targeted and as someone posted, you can wait until after time stop to detonate them.

Yeah, but what they do is create a spell like cloudkill then dump the target and the cloud into a forcecage. Once Time stop runs out, the target is stuck in a forcecage along with the cloudkill.

It violates the spirit of the Time stop spell which is described in the fluff as for either bluffing or running but is technically legal because of:

"A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. "

Both cloudkill and forcecage are allowed under that description

arguskos
2008-10-23, 06:39 PM
You can do that? Maximized makes a spell take up a slot that is 3 levels higher. Since time stop is already level 9, how can you maximise it?
Rod of Maximize Spell, Greater.

-argus

kladams707
2008-10-23, 06:43 PM
Actually, I was making my post in reference to "or heck, timestop, move action, poke (-18dex), poke (-18 dex)
if he's got more than 36 dex as a cleric I'd start calling shenanigans..or poke im again"

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Gorbash
2008-10-23, 06:49 PM
Your opponent can't do much casting if they are flat on their back most of the time - not to mention the attacks of opportunities caused by casting.

Well, nothing's actually stopping him from casting defansivly while he's prone. I'd rather it be in the mouth of a Tyrannosaurus. If I get lucky, there might even be 2-3 of them. So he actually can't do anything. Unfortunately, they will too take damage from Maw of Chaos when they close in on him, but they have enough HP to last one more round which will make him dead (240 dmg from Maw, 45 from Energy Drain, 5-20 from Enervation). I could also prepare to cast Otto's Irresitible Dance instead of Energy Drain to give myself more rounds to harras him. Orbs come into play then.

BossMuro
2008-10-23, 06:56 PM
...On the second round I cast Imbue Familiar with Spell ability.

Imbue Familiar lasts an hour per lvl, so you could probably start the fight off with it cast. That way your familiar gets to hit him before you time stop. Hell, take Improved Familiar to give it hands and have it use a metamagic rod, too.

Cuddly
2008-10-23, 07:13 PM
No prestige classes, only Wizard. No rules concerning duel, so I'm assuming some arena or undefined space.

How about this... When I cast (mazimized) Time Stop - in the first round I'm dazed, since I cast Celerity. On the second round I cast Imbue Familiar with Spell ability. Third round I summon 1d3 of Fiendish Tyrannosauruses. Familiar casts say... Wall of stone around him. Fourth round I cast (maximized) Maw of Chaos, Familiar casts Fly. Fifth round I cast quickened true strike, move up, ready action to cast Mazimized Energy Drain when Time Stop ends, familiar does the same but with Enervation.

Time stop ends - he takes 120 dmg from maw of chaos, has to make a will save or be dazed, gets 8 negative lvls from me and possibly 1d4 from familiar and 1-3 Fiendish Tyrannosaurs charge him. How does that sound?

Energy Drain & Enervation probably won't hit him, if he was smart enough to put death ward up.

Keld Denar
2008-10-23, 08:28 PM
From the Devil's Advocate PoV, if I was that cleric, I'd definitately be prebuffed. Pop a Bead of Karma, wear a Ring of Enduring Arcana, use an Orange IWIN Stone, and use Divine Spell Power to jack your CL up about 13. That lands you an effective CL of 33, which equals a DC 44 CL check on the dispel. Assuming you use a Greater Dispel AND roll a 20, you'll only hit DC 35, 37 if you use both an Orange IWIN Stone and a Ring of Arcane Might, and 38 if you can nab a level of Archmage on top of that, which it sounds like you can't. Therefore, his buffs are off limits. Also, depending on his domains, he can ALSO use Time Stop - Celerity cheese. He'll definitely have both FoM and Death Ward running, so you can forget about the standard debuff and BC. He'll also probably have a CL29 Spell Resistance up, giving him what, SR 39? Thats only reliably beatable if you burn a precious swift action on Assay SR.

And if I was him, I'd go for the Celerity + Time Stop combo, pop another Bead of Karma, and drop a CL ~29 Holy Word (or Blasphemy, or Word of Chaos, or Dictum), which will leave you paralyzed for 1d10 minutes. If he wanted to get really mean, he could roll Gnome, take Earth Spell and Heighten Spell, and cast Holy Word as a 9th level spell, increasing the CL by 3 more, for a CL 32 Holy Word, which WILL autokill you.

To counter your start, he could be packing a pair of Greater Rings of Counterspelling loaded with Greater Dispel Magic as well as a Battle Magic Perception running. He might have the Inquisition domain, which gives him a +4 on dispel checks, meaning he can counter any of your spells (DC31-33) on a roll of 10 or so. Your odds of getting your Time Stop off then involves 3 consective ~50% rolls, which if he makes one, he wins. Oh, and a simple Anklets of Translocation or Boots of Big Stepping keeps him out of your Force Cage if you do even get it off.

Granted, he might not do all of this, but if I was building the cleric to kill your wizard, I think you'd be uncomfortably surprised by some of the things a cleric can come up with.

Ganurath
2008-10-23, 08:30 PM
I just thought of the most important way to combat a Cleric you know nothing about: Neutral alignment.

Keld Denar
2008-10-23, 08:35 PM
I just thought of the most important way to combat a Cleric you know nothing about: Neutral alignment.

Holy Word hits everything non-good. Therefore, it blasts neutral and evil indiscrimantly. Being True Neutral gets you screwed by ALL 4 of those spells.

Mr.Bookworm
2008-10-23, 09:15 PM
Read it until you can recite it word by word. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500)

Gorbash
2008-10-24, 04:32 AM
First of all, we won't have time to prebuff, since then it's just silly, so no Death Ward. Second of all, he's not an optimizer so his idea of beating wizard is that he just have to many healings for me to kill him.

Eldariel
2008-10-24, 05:46 AM
Will you have hour/day buffs on though? If so, Persistent Metamagic Incantatrix is the way to go (well, it's ALWAYS the way to go). Persistent Foresight FTW. Other than that, spells you'd probably want on if possible (burn multiple level X slots to Extend it sufficient times to make a 10 min/level spell last whole day):
Contingency (on a command word - speakable as a free action): Dimension Door
Battlemagic Perception [Heroes of Battle]
Anticipate Teleport [Spell Compendium]
Moment of Prescience (burn on Initiative-check)
Nerveskitter [Spell Compendium - cast while rolling Initiative as per spell description]
Overland Flight or Phantom Steed
Superior Resistance [Spell Compendium]
Greater Mage Armor & the usual basic AC buffs (although they'll be unnecessary)
False Life (c'mon, pay him a little homage and keep some low-level buffs around too)

With Greater Mirror Image at a ready. Of course, you don't probably need to use most of the spells. Nerveskitter & Moment of Prescience more or less guarantee won Initiative. Then just do something simple like AMF+Wall of Force+Cloudkill him or something. Archmage with Mastery of Shaping seems like the easiest way to go - keeping a constant Shaped AMF around you is all kinds of fun.

Something like tossing him into a Solid Fog with AMF on you (covering the general area of the solid fog) and killing him slowly, but steadily with something like Cloudkills could be quite amusing. AMF removes his protections, Solid Fog stops him from escaping and Cloudkill slowly drains his Con to 0. Just repeat as necessary. For extra points, make 4 Wall of Forces around the Solid Fog so once he gets to the edge, he'll run into an invisible barrier. You're floating overhead of course, emanating your AMF not subject to the Cloudkill and completely out of his reach. You could use Greater Metamagic Rod of Maximize on Time Stop to make that happen immediately. Heck, you could even lose the Initiative and Celerity>do that in case he doesn't know how to acquire Celerity as a Cleric.

Make no mistake, a Cleric vs. Wizard no holds barred-fight on level 20 would be a fight of epic proportions, but if the Cleric-player doesn't even know the basics of tricking out a Cleric, he'll be toast before he can speak.


EDIT: Anything goes?! Craft Contingent Spell [Complete Arcane]. Game over. Also, toss Incantatrix at him. Enervate his immortal soul to oblivion.

its_all_ogre
2008-10-24, 06:42 AM
no pre-buffs
no prestige classes
seriously read this post.

if the cleric is not built to kill a wizard and the wizard is built to do in the cleric then why worry?

Starbuck_II
2008-10-24, 07:00 AM
First of all, we won't have time to prebuff, since then it's just silly, so no Death Ward. Second of all, he's not an optimizer so his idea of beating wizard is that he just have to many healings for me to kill him.

Have you thought of Ray of Stupidity (2nd level spell)? Clerics aren't likely to have more than 12 int at most.
1d4+1 Int damage.

If use imbue on Familar then it casts with Touch of Idiocy:

Order is Touch of Idiocy (lower Int to 1): then drop it to 0 with the Ray.

Best thing all these spells are in your spells known possible for level 10 as well.
You beat him with low level spells.

Tempest Fennac
2008-10-24, 07:17 AM
Your plan sounds good so far, Gorbash. Going back to disabling him, Shivering Ray would be good due to how he probably won't have high Dex. When will the duel happen?

Smeggedoff
2008-10-24, 08:10 AM
d'oh, it really shows that I've never played a high enough level caster to CAST time stop yet, sorry :/

fokay, how about time stop, imbue ferret familiar with multiple maximised shivering touches, send ferret into clerics trousers, continue time stopped shenanigans, time stop ends, hilarity ensues

TRM
2008-10-24, 08:22 AM
Have you thought of Ray of Stupidity (2nd level spell)? Clerics aren't likely to have more than 12 int at most.
1d4+1 Int damage.

If use imbue on Familar then it casts with Touch of Idiocy:

Order is Touch of Idiocy (lower Int to 1): then drop it to 0 with the Ray.

Best thing all these spells are in your spells known possible for level 10 as well.
You beat him with low level spells.
Touch of Idiocy only does 1d6 Int, Wis, and Cha damage; it doesn't automatically lower the score to 1.

I wouldn't worry about this fight at all. Your strategy looks good, especially since he is planning to be a healbot and... heal himself?

Starbuck_II
2008-10-24, 09:24 AM
Touch of Idiocy only does 1d6 Int, Wis, and Cha damage; it doesn't automatically lower the score to 1.

I wouldn't worry about this fight at all. Your strategy looks good, especially since he is planning to be a healbot and... heal himself?

Oh right. Darn that would have been a good combo.

Keld Denar
2008-10-24, 09:30 AM
Yea, as long as he doesn't pull out any of the stuff I posted above, you could actually probably kill him with ye ol' Cloudkill + Force Cage + Craft(Basketweaving). Nothing like turning out a nice wicker basket while waiting for your foe to expire to add a little insult to injury. Don't forget to Dim Lock the area as well. Its a lot more of an effective solution than AMF, since it doesn't completely bone you if something goes wrong.

And seriously? No prebuff? That hurts the cleric more than the wiz, because of all of the stuff I mentioned in my first post. If he's not an optimizer, he's gonna get boned harder than a dinosaur. It takes a lot of work tweak out a cleric to stand a chance to defeat a wiz, and honestly, not buffing just stacks another card in your favor, especially if you are allowed to use Celerity. GG.

kjones
2008-10-24, 09:45 AM
If he's not specifically building the cleric to combat your wizard, you'll destroy him. Healing won't matter when most of the stuff you're doing to him isn't damage, and won't be fixed by Cure (or even Heal).

Shishnarfne
2008-10-24, 09:55 AM
I'd say that as long as you win initiative (or use Celerity) and he is not allowed to have pre-buffs up, if you can land Otto's Irresistable Dance (touch range) on him, you've basically already won the fight (say a quickened dim. door to get to touch range, then drop the spell on him).

Because once he's dancing, he's going to have trouble fighting back.

In the famous linked thread: Otto's Irresistable Dance: Save or Lose, Minus the Save.

Gorbash
2008-10-24, 09:58 AM
Oh crap, I just found out it'll be a Core only, so I guess Celerity's out. What are my best options to win initiative? No hummingbird familiar, no Nerveskitter. :smallmad:

Shishnarfne
2008-10-24, 10:02 AM
Oh crap, I just found out it'll be a Core only, so I guess Celerity's out. What are my best options to win initiative? No hummingbird familiar, no Nerveskitter. :smallmad:

Buff Dex and take Improved Initiative.
Not much more that you can do in Core... at least regarding initiative.
He'll probably be rocking out in full plate (a bad idea for a duel against a wizard) if he takes a typical Cleric build.

At core only, Grey Elf makes too much sense for you not to take and that will boost Dex in addition to Int, so it's a decent start... (but make sure to buff that Fort save in case he manages to somehow win Init and drop an Implosion/Destruction on you....).

Keld Denar
2008-10-24, 10:05 AM
Core only? No prebuffage? That eliminates Moment of Prescience.

That just leaves high dex and Improved Init.

What kind of gear can you start with?

The cleric could still 1shot you with Holy Word (or Blasphemy) if he wins init. All he would need is the Trickery domain (for Time Stop) a Bead of Karma, and an Orange Iwin Stone. He casts TS, pops the bead, casts buffs till it ends (just in case), and then drops a CL 25 Word on your level 20 self, which paralyses you for 1d10 minutes, long enough for him to CDG you with a toothpick. No way for you to counter this, other than to win init, and that d20 roll hangs VERY heavy over you both with such limited options.

goram.browncoat
2008-10-24, 10:10 AM
Core or anything goes?
Straight class or prcs allowed?

If its core only, the cleric has a chance but should loose.
If its anything goes, the cleric is toast. (celerity essentially means you win duels)

Fun things for dueling:
-Buff with timestop
-Battlemagic perception (heroes of battle) + improved counterspell feat --> counter as a free action. make sure you have enough spellcraft so you can recognize what he is casting and counter the bad stuff.
-Shapechange into something with sexy natural armor and good dex + scintillating scales (SpC) + brilliant armor (or something like it, BoeD) for troublingly large amounts of AC.
-Be sure to use prayer beeds of karma yourself (all you need to be able to do to activate them is cast divine spells, the spontaneous divination (CC i think) alternat class feature allows you to do this, and you should be taking it anyway). This will make your buffs harder to dispell and will also open up the solar form for shapechange, which requires caster level 23.
-Superior invisibility will make you really hard to find if he doesnt have true seeing going on.
-Spellblade weapon enchantment is also your friend to prevent being targetted by greater dispell magic (the aoe dispell is far less annoying)
- If youre feeling saucy you could even try to outmelee him (thunderous lance + wraithstrike+ power attack), but theres safer ways to go about it :)

Shishnarfne
2008-10-24, 10:16 AM
Core only? No prebuffage? That eliminates Moment of Prescience.

That just leaves high dex and Improved Init.

What kind of gear can you start with?

The cleric could still 1shot you with Holy Word (or Blasphemy) if he wins init. All he would need is the Trickery domain (for Time Stop) a Bead of Karma, and an Orange Iwin Stone. He casts TS, pops the bead, casts buffs till it ends (just in case), and then drops a CL 25 Word on your level 20 self, which paralyses you for 1d10 minutes, long enough for him to CDG you with a toothpick. No way for you to counter this, other than to win init, and that d20 roll hangs VERY heavy over you both with such limited options.

It sounds like we have reduced tactics to rocket tag between the Cleric dropping a Holy Word/Blasphemy/Dictum/Chaotic version (if you are not the same alignment) and you landing Otto's Irresistable Dance on him. So, without pre-buffs, it would appear that whoever goes first can drop an "I win" spell on the other without any trouble.
C'est la vie.
At least in 3.5.
Maybe it's worth going Drow for the SR... despite the hit to levels... because then you would at least have a chance of surviving the other guy's blow at ideal tactics. (Not a great one, mind you, as the Cleric would like have to Nat 1 his SR check: Drow SR 28, Greater Spell Penetration+Bead of Karma=CL 28...) Or maybe not.

One way or the other, this fight is going to be OVER in a big hurry.

Gorbash
2008-10-24, 10:22 AM
Core, straight classes. Also, I'd need to pump my CON to 20, since that way I'll have 151 HP (average), and that makes me immune to Power Words.

Keld Denar
2008-10-24, 10:36 AM
Core, straight classes. Also, I'd need to pump my CON to 20, since that way I'll have 151 HP (average), and that makes me immune to Power Words.

Clerics don't get PWs unless they get them from domains, I think War gives a couple. And I'm pretty sure the hp required for PW Stun was 200. I might be wrong about that though. PW Kill is 150 though. You are better off pumping dex to go first. A Grey Elf with a 20 starting dex, putting all 5 points in dex, getting a +5 dex book, and wearing +6 gloves gives you a 36 dex, for a +13, tack on Improved Init for +17. If you are building a dueling character, you don't need Int very much, since you can screw him without saves. Win init and you win the day.

Really, his best kill mechanism is TS, Bead, Detect Good, ready Holy Word (or Word of Chaos) for end of TS, then CDG you with a rusty spoon. Unless you are Chaotic Good, that'll pretty much screw you over, and he could easily pick any 2 alignment parts, and you can pick 2, and there is only a 1 in 16 chance you pick the same 2 parts as him, unless you go neutral anything, in which case you are screwed.

Triaxx
2008-10-24, 10:55 AM
Seriously? This is a WIZARD we're talking about. The walking 'I win' button. No pre-buffing? If you get Init drop Finger of Death on him. Then light his character sheet on fire.

If you don't get Init... Light his sheet on fire anyway.

Depending on your ruling you could defeat him entirely with Magic Missile. Quicken it and prepare it to disrupt casting every turn. If like me you rule that any spell can be disrupted, sans Concentration checks, that's not quickened, he's in for a bad time.

Timestop+Silence+Web could be nasty as well, since now you can attack him from beyond range with a bow, using true strike to counter the range increment.

JaxGaret
2008-10-24, 11:33 AM
Orange IWIN Stone

I chuckled at that. :smallsmile:

Flickerdart
2008-10-24, 11:39 AM
So...you just roll for Initiative and then win. Doesn't sound very exciting, but considering your foe's "strategy" of healing himself, I bet he'll take turn 1 to buff and not attack. Then Otto drops his mad beats and he's done for.

Gorbash
2008-10-24, 12:34 PM
Finger of Death on him. Then light his character sheet on fire.

Finger of Death offers a save and clerics have good fort save, so that's not that reliable.


And I'm pretty sure the hp required for PW Stun was 200. I might be wrong about that though. PW Kill is 150 though.

Nope. Stun is 150, Kill is 100.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-10-24, 12:43 PM
1. Celerity
2. Timestop
3. ???
4. Profit!

I would suggest making step 3 "lots of delayed blast fireball" and add "If he's still standing Celerity -- Power Word Kill" to step four.

Keld Denar
2008-10-24, 12:53 PM
1. Celerity
2. Timestop
3. ???
4. Profit!

I would suggest making step 3 "lots of delayed blast fireball" and add "If he's still standing Celerity -- Power Word Kill" to step four.

Core only, that kills Celerity. No prebuffing kills Contingency and Moment of Prescience.

Geeze, why don't you just play War, you both have an equal chance of winning that game as you do winning this duel. Or better yet, flip a coin. Heads, you win, tails you lose.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-24, 01:12 PM
Core-Only. Grey Elf Wizard 15/Archmage 5. Snag Arcane Reach twice, Improved Init, an item of +6 Dex, and a Rod of Alertness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#alertness). 26 Dex will be higher than his, and all you need to do is win Init to Otto's him. He then loses. You could also spend 380,000 on a custom item of SR+40, which would pretty much make you win, but you don't have to.

Kesnit
2008-10-24, 01:15 PM
Assuming you have the cleric dancing, then what? It only last for 7 rounds - with a max roll and Extend.

Forcecage+Quickened Cloudkill takes a round, leaving 6 rounds (at most). CK does 1d4 CON damage, Fort for half. A decent FORT save and the cleric takes 2 CON damage average those rounds. (I would be surprised if the Cleric has a CON lower than 12, esp since (s)he has said the plan is to outlast the Wizard.

Dance wears off and the Cleric can cast. Neutralize Poison and the Cleric takes no more damage. Greater Restoration and the CON damage is gone.

streakster
2008-10-24, 01:18 PM
Assuming you have the cleric dancing, then what? It only last for 7 rounds - with a max roll and Extend.

Forcecage+Quickened Cloudkill takes a round, leaving 6 rounds (at most). CK does 1d4 CON damage, Fort for half. A decent FORT save and the cleric takes 2 CON damage average those rounds. (I would be surprised if the Cleric has a CON lower than 12, esp since (s)he has said the plan is to outlast the Wizard.

Dance wears off and the Cleric can cast. Neutralize Poison and the Cleric takes no more damage. Greater Restoration and the CON damage is gone.

Then what? Then demon dinosaurs, that's then what.

Erom
2008-10-24, 01:18 PM
You may want to consider proposing my DM's rule variant for dealing with the initiative thing - the tournament takes place over multiple rounds, and you take turns automatically wining initiative. (IE in game one turn order is wizard-cleric, in game two turn order is cleric-wizard.) If neither side can win twice in a row within 6 rounds (3 starts a piece) a draw is declared. Obviously you start with a fresh clone of your character in each game.

Not that this makes for a completely fair tournament, either - neither of you will bother taking feats that boost your initiative because you'll be guaranteed a win or lose. Basically, initiative will become a "dump (pseudo)stat", and proving that a wizard can boost his init higher without reducing his power is a useful measure of strength.

Kesnit
2008-10-24, 01:21 PM
Then what? Then demon dinosaurs, that's then what.

Banishment. :smallsmile:

streakster
2008-10-24, 01:22 PM
Banishment. :smallsmile:

While dancing?:smallsmile:

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-24, 01:25 PM
Assuming you have the cleric dancing, then what? It only last for 7 rounds - with a max roll and Extend.

Forcecage+Quickened Cloudkill takes a round, leaving 6 rounds (at most). CK does 1d4 CON damage, Fort for half. A decent FORT save and the cleric takes 2 CON damage average those rounds. (I would be surprised if the Cleric has a CON lower than 12, esp since (s)he has said the plan is to outlast the Wizard.

Dance wears off and the Cleric can cast. Neutralize Poison and the Cleric takes no more damage. Greater Restoration and the CON damage is gone.Summon Monster. Have them attack. Or Cone of Cold. Yes, Cone of Cold. 30d6 damage with minimum rolls for duration, more with metamagic rods. Hell, open a Gate under his feet to the home plane of whatever deity he worships greatest opponent. There's nothing like finishing a duel with only 2 spells expended, only one of those from your highest level, and a greater deity happy with you.

Shishnarfne
2008-10-24, 01:26 PM
Once the cleric is dancing (I suggest Metamagic Rod for maximize), I suggest a trio of Energy Drains (as he didn't have time to put up Death Ward)... He'll have 20 negative levels before he stops Dancing (two maximized, then a regular, and have an Enervation or so if he survives).

If he does cast Death Ward rather than a spell that will actually kill you with his first action... You probably would've lost had he used a more aggressive spell... But it'd be a good idea to have some ideas... One of which is to prepare multiple Dances to keep him going for a while, during which you target him with, say, Disintegrate (yes Clerics get a good Fort Save, but it's better than hitting his Will, and there aren't many Reflex Save or Lose spells...) or metamagicked Cones of Cold or Polar Rays (yes, these aren't usually great, but they'll bring down a Cleric who can't heal himself... eventually).

Arakune
2008-10-24, 01:28 PM
Assuming you have the cleric dancing, then what? It only last for 7 rounds - with a max roll and Extend.

Forcecage+Quickened Cloudkill takes a round, leaving 6 rounds (at most). CK does 1d4 CON damage, Fort for half. A decent FORT save and the cleric takes 2 CON damage average those rounds. (I would be surprised if the Cleric has a CON lower than 12, esp since (s)he has said the plan is to outlast the Wizard.

Dance wears off and the Cleric can cast. Neutralize Poison and the Cleric takes no more damage. Greater Restoration and the CON damage is gone.

Forcecage + cloudkill + incendiary cloud.

Them go for lots of readied actions to disrupt the spell casting with magic missile, or just go for an acid fog, sintingking cloud, etc.

Eldariel
2008-10-24, 01:54 PM
Core only, that kills Celerity. No prebuffing kills Contingency and Moment of Prescience.

Geeze, why don't you just play War, you both have an equal chance of winning that game as you do winning this duel. Or better yet, flip a coin. Heads, you win, tails you lose.

Meh, just focus on boosting Dex and make it 40 or something (or 36) and pick Improved Initiative. Since you're a Gray Elf, you'll have 20 Int anyways and that's all you need as you don't plan on giving him saving throw of a chance.

Kesnit
2008-10-24, 02:04 PM
While dancing?:smallsmile:

Dancing wore off already.

Keld Denar
2008-10-24, 02:07 PM
Check the casting time on Restoration and Greater Restoration. They are NOT combat spells. Heal cures ability damage though, and is a single round spell. Still, within core, only 2 items gets the cleric out of the Force Cage, and those are a Cloak of the Montebank, and Boots of Teleportation. Toss up a Dim Lock while you have Time Stop up (since its area, and not an attack, it'll work), and then he can't teleport away. An Extended Cloudkill CAN last for what, 50 rounds if you have an Orange Iwin Stone, and buy crossclass skills in UMD to trigger a Bead of Karma (DC20 only). Lets assume all saves are made, and minimum con damage is applied. The cleric has a 16 CON (not unreasonable if there is a point buy, and the fact that in core, wisdom and con both take the neck slot). The cleric takes CON damage for 15 rounds before casting a Heal to cure the CON damage. That still leaves 35 rounds of CK left. Therefore, unless he has more than 2 Heals prepared, he's dead from that. If you used your Greater Rod of Maximize (the one you use for TS), then he'd need 5 Heals to survive, since he'd take 2 CON per round. The whole time he's stuck in a Force Cage (250 minutes=~4 hours) and doesn't have line of effect to you. The only thing that will save him from this technique would be if he had a Necklace of Adaptation, which again takes up the valuable cleric neck slot.

Still, if he goes first, then you get Time Stopped, Beaded, and then Blasphemy'd, and CDGed with a rusty spoon. Thus, as I've stated before, life and death hang at the flip of a coin.

EDIT:

Meh, just focus on boosting Dex and make it 40 or something (or 36) and pick Improved Initiative. Since you're a Gray Elf, you'll have 20 Int anyways and that's all you need as you don't plan on giving him saving throw of a chance.

Nothing stops him from being a Halfling with a 20 starting dex, putting 5 level points into dex, getting +6 dex gloves, taking Improved Init, and equipping a Rod of Alertness. Since the kill mechanism I use isn't dependant on save DCs, starting with a 16 or so Wisdom wouldn't be terrible in this match, as long as you got an item to boost it over 19. Oh, and the cleric picks Luck and Trickery (Olidimarah?) for domains, and thus gets to roll initiative TWICE (luck) against your once, and still has Time Stop (trickery) for shanananananananagans.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-24, 02:10 PM
Dancing wore off already.Dancing lasts a minimum of 2 rounds, and the Rex's can attack after 1. If you ready an action to Magic Missile if he casts, he then has to make DC 15+5d4 or lose the spell. Combine that with 1d3 bruisers attacking him each round, or a Colossal Centipede grappling him(+42 mod without Augment Summoning) and he's not going to be casting much.

streakster
2008-10-24, 02:12 PM
Dancing wore off already.

Wait - I casted dancing, and it wore off before I could yell "Demon Dinosaurs, to me!"

Really?

I didn't think Summon Monster's casting time was that long...:smallsmile:

Kesnit
2008-10-24, 02:23 PM
Check the casting time on Restoration and Greater Restoration. They are NOT combat spells. Heal cures ability damage though, and is a single round spell. Still, within core, only 2 items gets the cleric out of the Force Cage, and those are a Cloak of the Montebank, and Boots of Teleportation.

The cleric doesn't need out of the force shield. He can only dance for 7 rounds, max. One round is before FS+CK is cast, so he only dances for 6 rounds (max) in the cloud. Once he can cast, Neutalize Poison stops the damage, and Heal removes past damage.


An Extended Cloudkill CAN last for what, 50 rounds if you have an Orange Iwin Stone,

And it does nothing since he is now immune to poison.


The cleric takes CON damage for 15 rounds

Except, as stated above, he doesn't. Only 6 - max.


That still leaves 35 rounds of CK left. Therefore, unless he has more than 2 Heals prepared, he's dead from that.

No he's not.


If you used your Greater Rod of Maximize (the one you use for TS), then he'd need 5 Heals

1 Heal only.


The whole time he's stuck in a Force Cage (250 minutes=~4 hours) and doesn't have line of effect to you.

Which is where he uses all his curing spells on himself. Unless the WIZ hits him with a save-or-die, he keeps healing.


Wait - I casted dancing, and it wore off before I could yell "Demon Dinosaurs, to me!"

Really?

I didn't think Summon Monster's casting time was that long...:smallsmile:

I was referring to my above post, where I asked what do you do after the 7 rounds (max) of dancing. So yes, the dancing has worn off because it's 7 rounds later.

streakster
2008-10-24, 02:25 PM
I was referring to my above post, where I asked what do you do after the 7 rounds (max) of dancing. So yes, the dancing has worn off because it's 7 rounds later.

Ah, sorry. I thought you meant what to do during the 7 rounds.

Keld Denar
2008-10-24, 02:26 PM
I was referring to my above post, where I asked what do you do after the 7 rounds (max) of dancing. So yes, the dancing has worn off because it's 7 rounds later.

The dancing is a lie. There wouldn't be any dancing, only choaking, because the cleric would be stuck in a Force Caged Funk taking at least 1 CON every round for the next ~50 rounds. Or at least thats what would occure if my suggestion were taken.

Its still a coin flip though.

snoopy13a
2008-10-24, 02:28 PM
Core-Only. Grey Elf Wizard 15/Archmage 5. Snag Arcane Reach twice, Improved Init, an item of +6 Dex, and a Rod of Alertness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#alertness). 26 Dex will be higher than his, and all you need to do is win Init to Otto's him. He then loses. You could also spend 380,000 on a custom item of SR+40, which would pretty much make you win, but you don't have to.

The cleric can have 26 Dex, a rod of alertness and Improved Init as well. If he plays an elf or halfling and invests attribute points from leveling along with a +6 item, he could theorectically have 30 Dex.

Of course he probably wont...

Flickerdart
2008-10-24, 02:35 PM
If you can force him to waste cures, every one he casts is a spell not flung at you. So if he's not dead after Time Stop, Cloudkill, demon dinosaurs and whatever else you demolish him with, he can do nothing but defend. In the 4 hours it takes for Forcecage to go away, he'll run out of spells and you can win whenever.

TheCountAlucard
2008-10-24, 02:45 PM
I'm all for the Time Stop, Forcecage, Cloudkill route. Just to be safe, cram the Forcecage full of Delayed Blast Fireballs.

By the way, it's the Feeblemind spell that reduces the target's mental stats to 1.