PDA

View Full Version : [4e] Minotaur Gore Attack



Mark Hall
2008-10-24, 12:50 AM
Ok, my wizard died this game*, so I'm looking to make another character. My current plan is a Minotaur Paladin (multied to Warlord, so I can have Athletics, to expand on my Leader role, and to cover some weak levels in the Strengthadin level advancement), but I ran across a question.

In the N/PC section, the Gore attack of a minotaur is listed as an Encounter power. In the main section, it is listed as an At-Will. Has this been errated?


*Cast sleep on the party... this is the one who I was planning on having betray everyone, so I did it in the penultimate encounter of the campaign arc. Got EVERYONE with the sleep, but the Paladin came over and critted me... I was at negative bloodied and he was still counting damage. Without my wizard, and because of how damaged they were from the fight where I betrayed them, we lost two more party members in the final encounter.

1of3
2008-10-24, 02:06 AM
As a monster kobolds have darkvision, as a player race they only have low-light vision. Such things are totally intentional.

Mark Hall
2008-10-24, 02:36 AM
That's silly.

"I don't know, Bob, but as soon as I learned how to stab people in the back and throw shuriken, I suddenly couldn't see in the dark!"
"I know what you mean. Once I was able to shoot two arrows in a round, I found that I had to rest five minutes between running head-butts. Those things will take a lot out of you."

Starsinger
2008-10-24, 02:38 AM
That's silly.

"I don't know, Bob, but as soon as I learned how to stab people in the back and throw shuriken, I suddenly couldn't see in the dark!"
"I know what you mean. Once I was able to shoot two arrows in a round, I found that I had to rest five minutes between running head-butts. Those things will take a lot out of you."

Well sure when you think of it that way it sounds silly. The alternative was a crapsack of Racial HD and Level Adjustment.

Mark Hall
2008-10-24, 02:45 AM
Well sure when you think of it that way it sounds silly. The alternative was a crapsack of Racial HD and Level Adjustment.

Racial HD and LA aren't necessary; in neither case is the ability nerfed terribly powerful (the minotaur ability includes damage equal to a minotaur dagger, and a knockdown, for example).

Starsinger
2008-10-24, 02:55 AM
Racial HD and LA aren't necessary; in neither case is the ability nerfed terribly powerful (the minotaur ability includes damage equal to a minotaur dagger, and a knockdown, for example).

That's true, but I wasn't just talking Minotaurs. Races in 4e in theory do what the "Lesser" planetouched races in 3.5 did. They give you abilities resembling that of a typical minotaur but designed for players rather than NPCs.

RPGuru1331
2008-10-24, 03:49 AM
The Gore is also competing with different powers as an At-will over an Encounter. I don't honestly remember its stats offhand, but it's competing with your At-Wills, which are obviously not as good as your encounters. I don't particularly mind most racial powers being Encounter just because they seem, as a player, as something that should be seen less in a given encounter.

Like, put it this way; An NPC Dragon is only around for a bit. Even if, just to avoid the criticism that '4e says a monster appears once and then dies, there's no persistent world', the Dragon is in fact a persistent, reoccuring character, there's no feasible way for him to get as much time in the game as the PCs, unless you're running some sort of GM fulfillment game. It's iconic attacks for its race should be used on a semi regular basis, because of this; IT has less time to display them. As a PC, however, a Dragon-born will be around an awful lot. He doesn't need ot torch people with his breath every other turn, because he's going to get a lot more fights to torch people in.

Now, if that Gore is as weak as an at-will, but Encounter only.. that's a problem, I'd say. I mean, humans get an extra at-will, so it's not that broken if you get an at-will as a racial power instead of an Encounter power.

Hzurr
2008-10-24, 10:10 AM
Cast sleep on the party... this is the one who I was planning on having betray everyone, so I did it in the penultimate encounter of the campaign arc. Got EVERYONE with the sleep, but the Paladin came over and critted me... I was at negative bloodied and he was still counting damage. Without my wizard, and because of how damaged they were from the fight where I betrayed them, we lost two more party members in the final encounter.


Hehe. It was a bit more dramatic than that. The wizard (who had been passing notes to me (the DM) for a while, so I knew he was planning on betraying the party. He casts sleep on them, and suddenly everyone realizes that the Wizard is out to get them, and the encounter just became significantly more difficult. Things are about to start looking hairy for the party, when the Dwarven Paladin Sheila (who went immediately after the wizard) waddles up, and crits on him using an encounter power with a vicious great-axe.

The "Backstabbing wizard who was going to destroy them all" Didn't last 1 turn (Not one round, but the next person's turn). It was both very epic and anti-climactic at the same time.

Mewtarthio
2008-10-24, 11:08 AM
That's silly.

"I don't know, Bob, but as soon as I learned how to stab people in the back and throw shuriken, I suddenly couldn't see in the dark!"
"I know what you mean. Once I was able to shoot two arrows in a round, I found that I had to rest five minutes between running head-butts. Those things will take a lot out of you."

I figure the Darkvision could be written off as the kobold living above ground so long that his darkvision has atrophied.

AKA_Bait
2008-10-24, 11:12 AM
Bear in mind that we may also see racial progressions for a good number of the playable MM races sooner or later. They did it with Warforged, so I don't see it being that unusual for them to do with others.

Shadow_Elf
2008-10-24, 11:14 AM
Also keep in mind that Gore Attack gets a bonus at every tier, not just 2[W] at epic. Also, with a horned helm, you do some ridiculous damage (4 horned minotaurs are awesome)

MartinHarper
2008-10-24, 02:19 PM
Also keep in mind that the minotaur rules on MM pg278 are for creating minotaur NPCs. To create a minotaur PC you will need to discuss with your DM, who might use those rules as guidelines and might not.


That's silly.

"I don't know, Bob, but as soon as I learned how to stab people in the back and throw shuriken, I suddenly couldn't see in the dark!"

Yeah, it's the same deal as the retraining rules on PHB pg28.

hamishspence
2008-10-24, 02:23 PM
Well, NPCs are different from monsters, PCs different from either.

Drow might be good baseline- if nothing was changed from MM to Players Guide, it was probably balanced.

On the other hand, Warforged received small changes when upgraded to PC race in Dragon mag.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-10-24, 02:29 PM
Personally, I like the argument that "civilization softens the monster."

Yeah, the minotaurs that live in ruins and deep dungeons have darkvision and can gore you faster than you can spit, but they have to! They live in an area of almost complete darkness that is crawling with god-knows-what that wants to eat you, and seasoned killers who are after your blood and lewt!

But what about the one who says "screw this noise!" and signs up with the nearest Adventurer's Guild. At first, he's blinded by all the light all the time, but his eyes adjust. Soon, he's so used to wandering around dungeons with some kind of torchlight that he completely loses his ability to see in the dark - y'know, 'cause super-vision is like a muscle.

And gore? Well, he's wearing all this armor and stuff now, and he's more likely to use an oversized Greataxe +2 than his head when killing stuff; he just doesn't have to use those goring muscles so often. Now he doesn't have the stamina to gore folks all the time - he has to take breaks, or he's going to pull something.

This explanation amuses me greatly :smallbiggrin:

hamishspence
2008-10-24, 02:30 PM
Pity books hardly ever do it- closest thing was Drizzt losing his inate levitation ability.

Starsinger
2008-10-24, 02:31 PM
his inate levitation ability.

His what? This is to avoid the "your message is too short" thingy, also I like the phrase Lemon Chiffon.

hamishspence
2008-10-24, 02:36 PM
Way back in Dark Elf trilogy, he could levitate. He lost in it book 3.

Spell-like abilities from 2nd ed were Represented in 3rd ed by feats like Highborn Drow.

Starsinger
2008-10-24, 02:37 PM
Way back in Dark Elf trilogy, he could levitate. He lost in it book 3.

Spell-like abilities from 2nd ed were Represented in 3rd ed by feats like Highborn Drow.

Oh, I see. I guess I can see how the ability to levitate would be more handy living in caves than the ability to create darkness.

hamishspence
2008-10-24, 02:38 PM
basic drow didn't get it. Wizards and clerics did though.

Other SLAs were available, for clerics.