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View Full Version : Purchasing advice: turning to Games Workshop for d&d minis



Erk
2008-10-24, 11:41 PM
The Games Workshop Lord of the Rings line has some very nicely priced miniatures that fit the theme of my campaign as well or better than anything WotC has to offer (and I can see what I am buying), so down that dark path I go. I already have the Easterlings soldiers set, 20 minis for 30 bucks (4 pikemen, 6 archers, 6 swordsmen, all in nice helmetty armour that lets me play them as a variety of different humanoid enemies until I have a better solution. Good deal, I really recommend it)

Being quite happy with my purchase, I'm wondering if anyone around knows more about Games Workshop minis. Right now, I am looking at the Mines of Moria set, but I am a bit leery about quality of the figures. I don't need anything fancy-pants, but "starter sets" tend to worry me. It looks like it comes with a nice variety of monsters and scenery, but does anyone on the boards have it? If so, what do you think of it?

Swordguy
2008-10-25, 12:03 AM
ALL of the GW LotR minis are worth buying, quality-wise*. The only issue is whether you're OK with subsidizing their business practices by directly buying their product.

To that end, I suggest eBay. LotR is a dying game, and the minis go pretty cheap there.




*Except the FotR Arwen mini - largely because Liv Tyler sent back her mini to the sculptors something like 8 times, and they finally just sculpted her as ugly as they felt they could get away with and stopped asking her. :smallbiggrin:

LotharBot
2008-10-25, 12:35 AM
I haven't tried Games Workshop, but here's where I've gotten my D&D supplies before:

0) I always get my books from amazon.com. They've been consistently cheaper than everybody else, and I happen to live fairly close to their headquarters so I often get shipments very quickly.

1) miniaturemarket.com has lots of 3.5e minis from the D&D minis game for sometimes as low as 25 cents. Bought about 30 bucks worth of minis from them a while back. These are generally good quality for plastic minis, though certainly not as good as pewter minis. (Someone who's familiar with the GW LotR set, how does it compare in quality to normal D&D minis?)

2) dicepool.com tends to have pretty good prices on dice. I've also used advancinghordes.com.

3) board games like Descent:Journeys in the Dark, and Doom: the boardgame have nice unpainted minis. If you're into minis painting (like my wife) these can be really nice sources for neat monsters. The plastic on these is a bit better quality than even D&D minis.

4) Swing by the dollar store or the craft store. Sometimes they have bags of plastic animals for cheap. I got a whole bunch of horses, giant rats, giant spiders, random farm animals, and crocodiles this way. Very low quality, but nice for filling out the environment.

5) World Works Games has card stock models -- pdf files that you print out on heavy card stock and then cut out and shape to build things like dungeons and ships. (If you buy anything that requires transparencies, it's much cheaper to print 1-2 pages at kinkos than to buy a box of transparencies.)

bosssmiley
2008-10-25, 04:35 AM
The Games Workshop Lord of the Rings line has some very nicely priced miniatures that fit the theme of my campaign as well or better than anything WotC has to offer (and I can see what I am buying), so down that dark path I go. I already have the Easterlings soldiers set, 20 minis for 30 bucks (4 pikemen, 6 archers, 6 swordsmen, all in nice helmety armour that lets me play them as a variety of different humanoid enemies until I have a better solution. Good deal, I really recommend it)

Being quite happy with my purchase, I'm wondering if anyone around knows more about Games Workshop minis. Right now, I am looking at the Mines of Moria set, but I am a bit leery about quality of the figures. I don't need anything fancy-pants, but "starter sets" tend to worry me. It looks like it comes with a nice variety of monsters and scenery, but does anyone on the boards have it? If so, what do you think of it?

Don't own the Mines of Moria set, but it looks like a good buy for any gamer. Goblins, Dwarves, Cave Troll + tomb, wasn't it? Classic dungeon fodder.

As for the rest GW's minis are generally good-to-exceptional in sculpt quality (unless Gary Morley gets out of his cage), but you will pay a bit over the odds for it. That said a regiment box or two of customisable plastics (16-20 minis) from either their LotR or WFB ranges will have you set for all but the biggest tabletop battles.

And, unlike WOTC, you can see what you're getting. :smallannoyed:
(never thought I'd see someone make GW's business practices look good)

Tsotha-lanti
2008-10-25, 05:24 AM
GW plastic miniatures are the only ones I use/buy. They're especially useful for someone like me, since I regularly play encounters to the tune of "30 orcs and 5 trolls!"

I would have bought some pre-painted plastic D&D minis if it wasn't for the fact that they come in random assortments. Screw that, really.

I've been eyeing the LOTR minis myself - they plain look much, much better than the Warhammer ones. And Middle-Earth has always been one of our big campaigns anyway.

Erk
2008-10-25, 08:20 AM
What's the big issue with GW's business practices?

Thanks for the sites, LotharBot, I'll look into those, especially for the few-at-a-time monsters

Bryn
2008-10-25, 09:13 AM
What's the big issue with GW's business practices?
The main thing I see people complain about on the internets is the prices, most particularly when they rise. Apparently, the models used to be vastly cheaper than they are now.

The other possibility I can imagine is that GW has a near-monopoly on wargaming, and they never admit to the existence of other games or companies such as Warmachine/Hordes, the wargames mentioned in this thread, and various historical games. As a result, few other companies manage to become successful with wargames, since they have a hard time spreading the word of their new system.

There are other rules-y things, but those aren't so much to do with business practices.

I don't know if those two complaints are what Swordguy and bosssmiley are referring to, and there is probably something else I'm missing that's much worse. Personally, I don't have anything particularly against GW, but I've seen them compared to Hitler in the past (no really), so there's probably something really bad I don't know about.

Erk
2008-10-25, 09:19 AM
I don't know if those two complaints are what Swordguy and bosssmiley are referring to, and there is probably something else I'm missing that's much worse. Personally, I don't have anything particularly against GW, but I've seen them compared to Hitler in the past (no really), so there's probably something really bad I don't know about.

Ah, godwin's law.

Well, perhaps they experiment cruelly on orcs.

Anyway, I dunno about prices rising, but the GW miniatures are cheaper than any RPG miniatures I've looked for short of used stuff from the internets.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-10-25, 09:20 AM
The main thing I see people complain about on the internets is the prices, most particularly when they rise. Apparently, the models used to be vastly cheaper than they are now.

What a cruel and unusual business practice.


The other possibility I can imagine is that GW has a near-monopoly on wargaming, and they never admit to the existence of other games or companies such as Warmachine/Hordes, the wargames mentioned in this thread, and various historical games. As a result, few other companies manage to become successful with wargames, since they have a hard time spreading the word of their new system.

So some people are of the opinion that Games Workshop has a responsibility to help other companies and products take part of its market share?

Are you kidding me? Freaking Internet.

Bryn
2008-10-25, 09:24 AM
As I said, I could be missing something really bad. Prices seems to be the biggest source of wargamer grumbling, though.

I can't remember any specific instance of people complaining about GW's monopoly, but it seems very implicit in the jokes about GW hurting people who mention Warmachine and Hordes in their store. I have seen people complaining about the 'GW models only' policy in stores, but otherwise I fear I may be exaggerating slightly about the degree of complaining on the second point. :smallwink:

Swooper
2008-10-25, 10:50 AM
If I used miniatures in my games, I'd get WFB ones. Maybe because I used to play it many years ago (my brother still does, he has can field large armies from at least five races or so), and still have a few boxes of orcs and goblins somewhere in a closet. Maybe because I know they're usually high quality and the range of different miniatures should cover pretty much everything you'd need in D&D (and if it doesn't, there's the possibility of converting models and the wonderful utility of Green Stuff). But mostly because I'd hate getting random minis. Really, what's up with that? :smallconfused: I can sort of see how it makes sense for TCGs to not just be able to buy all the best cards right away, but miniatures?

InaVegt
2008-10-25, 10:58 AM
One important problem of GW I've heard about is their tendency to put miniatures on sale just before an edition change, and 'forgetting' to mention people cannot use those miniatures in the new edition. This wouldn't be a problem if there were tournaments for editions other than the latest, but this is not the case.

Mind you, I do not play GW, I keep to DnD 3.5 and DnD 4 for my wargaming, so I don't know if this is true.

hamishspence
2008-10-25, 11:03 AM
Not entirely true in most cases: old miniatures are perfectly valid, even at the tourney level, unless the weapons have been phased out. Even then, you could say These Really Odd Weapons Count as... and have them work.

You could turn up to a tourney with a whole army of RB01 Marines and organizers won't bat an eye.

Also, after a LONG wait, old combos are valid again. Chaos knights had lances in Ravening Hordes, lost them in Hordes of Chaos, and now have the option to take them again.

sonofzeal
2008-10-25, 11:24 AM
One important problem of GW I've heard about is their tendency to put miniatures on sale just before an edition change, and 'forgetting' to mention people cannot use those miniatures in the new edition. This wouldn't be a problem if there were tournaments for editions other than the latest, but this is not the case.

Mind you, I do not play GW, I keep to DnD 3.5 and DnD 4 for my wargaming, so I don't know if this is true.
This is the main complaint I've heard. They'll use aggressive marketing to lure players into purchasing a whole pile of stuff, right before they totally change the rules and render half of it obsolete/unusable, then refuse to allow the other half to be used in in-store games. But as hamishspence says, some tournaments are more forgiving, and YMMV.

Bryn
2008-10-25, 11:26 AM
One important problem of GW I've heard about is their tendency to put miniatures on sale just before an edition change, and 'forgetting' to mention people cannot use those miniatures in the new edition. This wouldn't be a problem if there were tournaments for editions other than the latest, but this is not the case.

That... seems unlikely to be true, though I too have seen that story posted.

As far as I know (which means I could be wrong), miniatures remain completely valid regardless of which edition of the game you're playing. It's perfectly legitimate to put down some 2nd Edition Space Marines, and in fact it's justified in the fluff by the various patterns of power armour. I know Ork players in particular often seem to have lots of old models. Even in a tournament, the rule is usually "models must be mostly official GW", regardless of edition.

The only reason you couldn't use old models would be if the rules changed so that that unit doesn't exist any more, but even then it's easy to say "my Goff Rockers count as a unit of Kommandos". I don't know how that would go over in a tournament, mind you, but most players would go "oh cool, Goff Rockers!" in my experience.

Most likely, the problem is with one particular GW store run by an idiot, because the company otherwise doesn't behave at all like that :smallconfused:

Another fault that I have heard is that some GW staff are quite sexist, which could be a problem, but it's not really correct to fault the entire company because some of their employees are a long way behind the times.

Fendalus
2008-10-25, 12:00 PM
Old models are perfectly valid most of the time, only in a few instances are they illegal due to age. Even then, a simple "Counts as _____" works unless the person you are playing is a jerk.

Losing their effectiveness, possibly. Although I haven't even seen this Pre-New release "buy old stuff" marketing tactic at all, it seems to be "Pre order all our shiny new stuff now" instead.

On topic, the warhammer line would probably be very good for this sort of thing. Although the LoTR line is a bit more realistic...

Now I just need to find a way to make a good halfling wizard model...

TheThan
2008-10-25, 12:45 PM
Yeah GW tends to produce very nice miniatures. I’ve used both my warhammer fantasy ogres (as ogres!) and my LOTR rangers in dnd games. They work pretty well. I’ve also used the minies from Decent: journey into the darkness. They work fine too, but those aren’t painted (since their color coded). I think, as long as the modles kind of sort of look like what they represent, they should work well.





1) miniaturemarket.com has lots of 3.5e minis from the D&D minis game for sometimes as low as 25 cents. Bought about 30 bucks worth of minis from them a while back. These are generally good quality for plastic minis, though certainly not as good as pewter minis. (Someone who's familiar with the GW LotR set, how does it compare in quality to normal D&D minis?)


This is very nice to know, as I’m looking to get my hands on a crap ton of starwars minis.

Beleriphon
2008-10-25, 12:54 PM
And, unlike WOTC, you can see what you're getting. :smallannoyed:
(never thought I'd see someone make GW's business practices look good)

that said for the same price I can get like four boxes of D&D minis, depending on the GW stuff you buy. :smallwink:

Erk
2008-10-25, 01:24 PM
that said for the same price I can get like four boxes of D&D minis, depending on the GW stuff you buy. :smallwink:

Eh? For the price I paid for 20 identifiable minis I know I will use, I could get two and a half boxes of completely unidentified wotc minis, also 20 in total. I consider "knowing what I am buying" to be worth a fair bit into that total.

Similar sets for the same price often have 24 minis in them, like the dwarf set I am looking at next-up.

Ordering online from the sites I have looked at so far adds a shipping fee, and the average price per decent figure is 0.15-2.00, bringing it to about the same.

Unless you're buying metal figs, gw seems to be reasonable for prices to me. Depends a lot on what you need though, I think.

TheThan
2008-10-25, 01:46 PM
The only real problem is getting some of the iconic dnd monsters, like Ilithids and beholders. If your looking for generic orcs and elves, then you’re just fine with GW minis.

Beleriphon
2008-10-25, 01:58 PM
Eh? For the price I paid for 20 identifiable minis I know I will use, I could get two and a half boxes of completely unidentified wotc minis, also 20 in total. I consider "knowing what I am buying" to be worth a fair bit into that total.

I dunno, $45 for a single box of plastics vs four boxes at $15 each for me works out better. The fact that I play the minis game helps, but once you factor in the cost of paints, brushes and other sundries the D&D minis end up being slightly cheaper.

That said, if you need 15-20 skeletons, orcs or whatever then yeah GW is probably going to give you what you want up front.

hamishspence
2008-10-25, 02:01 PM
the new Dark Elf character could pass for an illithid- wears The Kraken helm, which looks exactly like the face of an illithid if it was armoured.

Beholders are harder though.

Swordguy
2008-10-25, 02:15 PM
That... seems unlikely to be true, though I too have seen that story posted.

As far as I know (which means I could be wrong), miniatures remain completely valid regardless of which edition of the game you're playing. It's perfectly legitimate to put down some 2nd Edition Space Marines, and in fact it's justified in the fluff by the various patterns of power armour. I know Ork players in particular often seem to have lots of old models. Even in a tournament, the rule is usually "models must be mostly official GW", regardless of edition.

The only reason you couldn't use old models would be if the rules changed so that that unit doesn't exist any more, but even then it's easy to say "my Goff Rockers count as a unit of Kommandos". I don't know how that would go over in a tournament, mind you, but most players would go "oh cool, Goff Rockers!" in my experience.

Most likely, the problem is with one particular GW store run by an idiot, because the company otherwise doesn't behave at all like that :smallconfused:

Another fault that I have heard is that some GW staff are quite sexist, which could be a problem, but it's not really correct to fault the entire company because some of their employees are a long way behind the times.

There are other reasons - I've seen internal GW memos. Unfortunately, I'm also under an NDA. :smallannoyed:

hamishspence
2008-10-25, 02:23 PM
Wouldn't a real NDA forbid you from telling anyone you're under an NDA?

I mean, its all very well to say :
"GW does terrible, terrible things"
"What Kind?"
"I'm not allowed to tell you, just terrible"

Does it really work like that?

Fax Celestis
2008-10-25, 02:25 PM
Wouldn't a real NDA forbid you from telling anyone you're under an NDA?

No? NDAs are merely, "You can't talk about the details of this".

hamishspence
2008-10-25, 02:27 PM
Just seems a little odd, is all.

bosssmiley
2008-10-25, 03:08 PM
What's the big issue with GW's business practices?

You mean other than: their overzealous fan site policies and a wider maniacal overprotectiveness of their IP by the legal dept.
their monkeying around with licensees (Hogshead Publishing) and work-for-hire writers (ask sci-fi author Ian Watson what he thinks of GW sometime)
their on-again, off-again attitude to "Dark Heresy", "WFRP" and "Black Library"
the poor business co-ordination between various arms of the GW group of companies
their appallingly OTT, in-yer-face customer service (designed - by policy - to drive away older, long-standing gamers)
their decidedly ephebophile fixation on appealing to their uncritical 'core market' (male teens)
the relentless pushing of 'The Games Workshop Hobby' as a hermetic subcultural unity in itself
the Squats debacle

Believe it or not I have no problem with GW pricing here in the UK (£15 for 16-20 plastic multiparts, compared to £10 for 8 random D&D minis). I will happily pay for the good-to-excellent sculpt quality of their products in white metal or hard plastic.

Just coz I like their product, doesn't mean I like the vendor's policies.

Erk
2008-10-25, 03:33 PM
You mean other than: their overzealous fan site policies and a wider maniacal overprotectiveness of their IP by the legal dept.
their monkeying around with licensees (Hogshead Publishing) and work-for-hire writers (ask sci-fi author Ian Watson what he thinks of GW sometime)
their on-again, off-again attitude to "Dark Heresy", "WFRP" and "Black Library"
the poor business co-ordination between various arms of the GW group of companies
their appallingly OTT, in-yer-face customer service (designed - by policy - to drive away older, long-standing gamers)
their decidedly ephebophile fixation on appealing to their uncritical 'core market' (male teens)
the relentless pushing of 'The Games Workshop Hobby' as a hermetic subcultural unity in itself
the Squats debacle

Believe it or not I have no problem with GW pricing here in the UK (£15 for 16-20 plastic multiparts, compared to £10 for 8 random D&D minis). I will happily pay for the good-to-excellent sculpt quality of their products in white metal or hard plastic.

Just coz I like their product, doesn't mean I like the vendor's policies.

So, by that measure, since the customer service at our local store is very good and I don't care even remotely about their actual games: nothing? Heh.

Noted though. So GW is a buncha jerks if you are into miniatures gaming, not so bad as a purveyor of miniatures for other uses. Thanks

Swordguy
2008-10-25, 04:38 PM
Wouldn't a real NDA forbid you from telling anyone you're under an NDA?

I mean, its all very well to say :
"GW does terrible, terrible things"
"What Kind?"
"I'm not allowed to tell you, just terrible"

Does it really work like that?

I worked part-time as a miniatures caster for IronWind Metals. While working for them I saw internal GW memos with objectionable content at GenCon. I've previously posted the contents thereof on various forums, and have been since informed that said commentary was a breach of an NDA I signed dealing with "non-disclosure of trade details". I don't have the time or money to fight a legal action, so I'm going with it.

Thus, I can't type it out again. However, the notification I received made no mention of removing previous posts. Thus, if you were to do a search with my handle and "customers" attached to it, it may prove profitable, especially in a Vs. Thread, for example. But I speak from purely a theoretical aspect, of course - it may well not prove profitable.

The fact that the IronWind guys read these forums is purely conincidental to my caution, of course.

Hawriel
2008-10-26, 12:29 AM
One of my best friends was part owner in a gaming store in the mid 90s called the WarZone. I remember quite well how much BS they had to put up with GW. Alot of the rumors you guys are talking about have truth to them. The thing about only selling GW merchandise is a rule for stores that want the "official GW store" status. These stores where able to run official turniments and had access to better promos. Any store could sell GW stuff. GW constantly pushed editions to their games when they had a new one that would release befor all of the current edition's stuff came out. Their constomer servise was rather combative. Around 95-96 (give or take) GW sent my friend's store licter figures with one leg...(BITE ME INSPECTER #23!!:smallfurious:). This was not just my friend's store, it was every store in the county and most of michigan. All of these figures had a missing leg. I honnestly cant remember if GW reimbersed the distributer or not. Im sure that some distributers had to eat the loss.

Any way the OP wanted cool looking minies. Reaper Miniatures came out in the late 90s and they where great minies. Not only that they where two dollars. Combared to the seven to ten dollars of GW single minies this was a god send. OF corse ten years later reaper costs more, but they are still cheeper than GW.

http://reapermini.com/MiniaturesGallery

Here is a link to ironwind

http://ironwindmetals.com/d/index.php

Smeggedoff
2008-10-26, 12:48 AM
I'll vouch for Reaperminis for characters and things, but I'm not sure about mass representing of mooks, they're just too dang swish :)

Talic
2008-10-26, 01:18 AM
My big problem with GW is when it came to their official tournament policies. They encourage kit-bashing... To a point.

All the pieces on all the models that you fielded for a tournament had to be GW. The equipment on your model had to match the equipment you statted. So if you want a Predator tank with assault cannons on the side mounts for when you fight horde armies, and a different one with Lascannons on the side mounts for when you expect vehicle/heavy armies... Buy two seperate tanks.

So, if you're building a tank squadron, and want to represent your smoke launchers, and the earlier edition tank you bought didn't come with em, you had to go out and essentially buy a cheap tank ($20 US or so), and pull the launchers from that. You couldn't find a similar piece from a WW2 model tank, even if it looked good.

I had one of my 40k armies DQ'd from a tourney because the flocking I used wasn't GW. Mine-run coal from a hobby shop. Used to give a good alien scorched earth feel to my Necron Army, looked better than anything GW had.

I saw another person get DQ'd because his army list had a sergeant with a plasma pistol, and the plasma pistol wasn't on the model.

In short, too many forgot that it's a game, you're supposed to have fun, and GW policy is to force players to buy 100% GW, or not play anything official. I've seen people get hell (not DQ'd, but hassled) over not using GW paint.

Smeggedoff
2008-10-26, 01:23 AM
really? last time I went into GW I was specifically told by the staff to go around the corner to an art store and buy a specific brand of brown ink, because it produced a much better effect than anything they stocked with less effort.

I suspect that's one of those rule proving exceptions though

Talic
2008-10-26, 01:29 AM
really? last time I went into GW I was specifically told by the staff to go around the corner to an art store and buy a specific brand of brown ink, because it produced a much better effect than anything they stocked with less effort.

I suspect that's one of those rule proving exceptions though

That's a helpful employee. And GW official policy is that paint doesn't have to be GW... Though it's frowned on, and you'll never win a painted mini competition unless you're using GW minis. Cause they describe your paint scheme in terms of GW colors, and if you don't have them, screwed.

Ink washes can generally get by, as they're shading to existing colors. I did find that a brown ink wash on top of bleach-bone with and Ivory dry brush followup yielded a very, very good ancient bones look for skeletons.

Smeggedoff
2008-10-26, 01:31 AM
Ivory you say? they missed that step out, thanks for the tip :smallbiggrin:

Talic
2008-10-26, 01:45 AM
Yeah, you dry brush a lighter color on top of the darker one, and then ink.

That way you have a solid base. The high points look a bit brighter, due to the drybrushing, like they're catching more light, and the low spots, where the inking really settles, looks darker, more shadowed. Gives a good lighting effect. You can apply the principle to a lot of things.

Gets more advanced with paint mixing, such as different levels of red and black, to get a slowly lightening red going across a model, with a dark orange drybrush and a deep red inking... With practice, that makes a very good lava look.

I was one of the better shading painters in my area. I knew some amazing detail painters, ones that used 1 hair brushes to add writing to the books that their minis held, and such.

turkishproverb
2008-10-26, 02:28 AM
Wouldn't a real NDA forbid you from telling anyone you're under an NDA?

I mean, its all very well to say :
"GW does terrible, terrible things"
"What Kind?"
"I'm not allowed to tell you, just terrible"

Does it really work like that?

They've used a loophole in US IP laws to prevent gamestores from selling items purchased from them online via shopping cart, or for selling them for over 20 percent off even in game stores.

And the regular price markups, around 10-20 percent a year (in the states) on average for the last 5-10 years


You mean other than: their overzealous fan site policies and a wider maniacal overprotectiveness of their IP by the legal dept.
their monkeying around with licensees (Hogshead Publishing) and work-for-hire writers (ask sci-fi author Ian Watson what he thinks of GW sometime)
their on-again, off-again attitude to "Dark Heresy", "WFRP" and "Black Library"
the poor business co-ordination between various arms of the GW group of companies
their appallingly OTT, in-yer-face customer service (designed - by policy - to drive away older, long-standing gamers)
their decidedly ephebophile fixation on appealing to their uncritical 'core market' (male teens)
the relentless pushing of 'The Games Workshop Hobby' as a hermetic subcultural unity in itself
the Squats debacle

Believe it or not I have no problem with GW pricing here in the UK (£15 for 16-20 plastic multiparts, compared to £10 for 8 random D&D minis). I will happily pay for the good-to-excellent sculpt quality of their products in white metal or hard plastic.

Just coz I like their product, doesn't mean I like the vendor's policies.

Talic
2008-10-26, 04:02 AM
Yes. When stores agree to sell GW products, they agree to a number of terms, including discount limitations, free product limitations, minimum frontage requirements, etc.

Most GW arrangements require the store devote 50% of its tabletop gaming space to GW products, and to have greater frontage than any other tabletop wargaming brand.


As for NDA's... It depends. They're essentially private contracts. As such, the limitations that are imposed are up to the parties involved, subject to law. If an NDA listed that you couldn't reveal the NDA, then you can't.

Most companies won't do that though, they're just attempting to prevent specific damaging information from getting out, or proprietary information. Stuff that would hurt the company. "I'm under an NDA" doesn't.

The typical damages awarded in a violation of an NDA usually correlate to the damages that the information release cost the company. As such, it's hard to award cases based on non-damaging release of information.

Bryn
2008-10-26, 08:45 AM
You mean other than: their overzealous fan site policies and a wider maniacal overprotectiveness of their IP by the legal dept.
their monkeying around with licensees (Hogshead Publishing) and work-for-hire writers (ask sci-fi author Ian Watson what he thinks of GW sometime)
their on-again, off-again attitude to "Dark Heresy", "WFRP" and "Black Library"
the poor business co-ordination between various arms of the GW group of companies
their appallingly OTT, in-yer-face customer service (designed - by policy - to drive away older, long-standing gamers)
their decidedly ephebophile fixation on appealing to their uncritical 'core market' (male teens)
the relentless pushing of 'The Games Workshop Hobby' as a hermetic subcultural unity in itself
the Squats debacle

Ah, now this begins to make more sense. I'm not sure I agree that it's as bad as you describe, and I don't agree with all of the points though on the list though.

Here's a whole bunch of unsupported opinion, then :smallbiggrin::
First of all, I agree about the WFB/Dark Heresy business. I don't specifically know what you're talking about with the licencees, but I can guess. This stuff is a problem.

I'm afraid to say I don't know what you're referring to with the fansite thing. While at Games Day this year, I met an employee quoting rumours from Warseer. There are dozens of fansites on the Internet, which GW hasn't yet shut down. This isn't to say I entirely disagree with you, but I don't know about any situtuations where GW has shut down fansites, at least in recent times.

I do know that they aren't allowing anyone else to make money off 40k-based products, such as published TSOALR or that 40k movie that some German players made a while ago, IIRC. Still, that bit seems fair enough.

Now, I've never seen any problems with GW customer service. I have no idea how things are in America!, but all the GW staff I've met have seemed friendly and never annoyingly intrusive. Certainly, they've never acted in such a way as to make me feel that I might be driven away from the hobby, though I don't exactly qualify as an old, long-standing gamer.

On the other hand, just because I've been lucky in the GW employees I meet is hardly a comprehensive scientific study. Nonetheless, stores in Bristol, as well as Games Day UK, never seem to have the terrible service you describe...

I find it amazing that people still hold the Squats against GW, more than a decade and two editions of the game later.

The ephebophilia thing (seriously?) and the point about the 'subculture' don't strike me as particularly villainous, to be honest. The latter can simply be ignored if you disagree with it, and the former seems like a bit of an exaggeration. The former doesn't strike me as being as extreme as you say, either. In any case, what's so bad about trying to appeal to young people as well as old?

The lack of coordination between divisions is certainly inefficient, but it doesn't seem so bad that one might boycott GW for it.

In short (tl;dr edition): their handling of roleplaying systems and some other books based on 40k is bad, and their legal department may sometimes be overzealous. (Also, the new website is awful!) Still, GW do not strike me as being the very forces of Chaos themselves in terms of how horribly they behave, or anywhere near it.
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I had no luck finding those Villainous Memos on a search of the site you mentioned, so I don't think I'll be able to find out the Terrible Terrible Things that GW has been up to unless we get a few more hints :smallwink:
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Well, limiting the discounts that stores can put on GW products seems... slightly unnecessary, but really not all that bad. :smallconfused: Forcing stores to dedicate a lot of space to GW products likewise is rather petty, but not so terrible that I'm going to declare a vendetta against Games Workshop.

(Additionally, in the UK, the non-GW 40k-selling stores I've visited usually have a tiny Warhammer shelf in a corner. I've never seen a wargaming board for any system in shops that aren't GW, though, so maybe if they did have any game boards they would be 40k. Typically, though, they're shoved into a tiny space in between all sorts of other toys and models, most particularly model trains and merchandise for TV shows, or, in the case of the nearest store, they're in a computer shop).
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If anyone feels like hurting someone, particularly me, as a result of my superlong Walls of Text, I really apologise. I don't know how these things manage to balloon so...:smallamused:

hamishspence
2008-10-26, 08:47 AM
I've seen one shop, I think called Gaming Workshop, that was about 25% GW stuff and 75% other wargames- reaper included. Many game boards as well.

Talic
2008-10-26, 09:05 AM
Well, limiting the discounts that stores can put on GW products seems... slightly unnecessary, but really not all that bad. :smallconfused: Forcing stores to dedicate a lot of space to GW products likewise is rather petty, but not so terrible that I'm going to declare a vendetta against Games Workshop.

(Additionally, in the UK, the non-GW 40k-selling stores I've visited usually have a tiny Warhammer shelf in a corner. I've never seen a wargaming board for any system in shops that aren't GW, though, so maybe if they did have any game boards they would be 40k. Typically, though, they're shoved into a tiny space in between all sorts of other toys and models, most particularly model trains and merchandise for TV shows, or, in the case of the nearest store, they're in a computer shop).


Well, in the US, this is what I've seen, for 40k.

When a company requires greater frontage for retailer status (which makes you eligible for... well, pretty much every form of product support GW offers) than other companies, it means something. It means that first, only one store with that practice can be actively supported in any hobby shop. Thus, it essentially supports the biggest system, at the cost of forcing smaller systems out.

Further, this is what GW does with price controlling.

GW: Hey, distributor, wanna buy some stuff from us?
Joe the Shopowner: Sure, I have a lot of 40k players in the area, and I've already got the frontage agreements and stuff. Here's a couple hundred bucks, I want all those models over there.
GW: Great! They're yours. You own all those models free and clear. You can do whatever you want with them. Well, unless you want to undercut our profit margin. Can't do that. Gotta sell that $40 model there at least at $34. Oh, that means you can't give any away free, unless we graciously provide you with some product support for giveaway. Looking at your sales volume... You qualify for this every month. Enjoy!
Joe the Shopowner: But that's a $3 bottle of paint!
GW: Hey, keep selling our stuff. Get us $1000 in sales a month and we'll let you give away one tank a month. Until then, no, we won't let you do that with the stuff you paid for and own.

In other words, they sell something to someone. Give ownership to them. And then tell them what they can't do with what they own. If the store does a 30% sale on all their products? It now has to be all their products *except* Games Workshop.

Would you let someone sell you a car, then tell you that you couldn't drive it on any road with a speed limit under 35 mph? Then why is it ok for GW to do with the stuff they sell?

Most of GW's unethical practices are centered around controlling the people they sell to, and aggressively forcing other companies to the fringe of the market. While I can appreciate the latter, the former isn't conducive to happy storeowners. Those storeowners often complain about GW, and that's where the anti-GW sentiment takes root.

hamishspence
2008-10-26, 09:25 AM
Interestingly we can credit GW's founders (though not necessarily GW) with the famous Pick Your Own Plot Fighting Fantasy series.

Also, I remember there being LOTR metal models way back, then they got taken off store order list. Did GW run afoul of the Tolkien estate?

Talic
2008-10-26, 10:09 AM
Metal models aren't as cost effective. Many got shifted to plastic for cost reasons.

Though the "choose your own plot" actually was pioneered by Alderac Entertainment Group, and their various games, most of which allow players to influence the plot.

Legend of the Five Rings was the first, I believe, though Warlords and several other games of theirs do it now.

hamishspence
2008-10-26, 10:36 AM
yes, FF wasn't new, but it is well known.

The Allansia setting was very reminiscent of D&D in many ways. More so than many fantasy settings.

Leon
2008-10-26, 01:07 PM
Interestingly we can credit GW's founders (though not necessarily GW) with the famous Pick Your Own Plot Fighting Fantasy series.

Also, I remember there being LOTR metal models way back, then they got taken off store order list. Did GW run afoul of the Tolkien estate?

Yes they did, i cant recall the details but they did something that displeased the Estate

WychWeird
2008-10-26, 01:58 PM
I'm not sure if they'll still do it (due to white metal versus lead casting) but Citadel Minatures (UK) used to cast up specific models if you can tell them want models you want, ie WD#59 Page 4, Goblin with Sniper Rifle, unless the model was under license like the Lord of the Ring models (not the new tabletop versions.) I frequently used to use the service to get some cracking models for my gaming.

The plastics are well worth getting - sprues of skellies sprayed brown and drybrushed with ivory and bleached bone made a quick horde; same with the fantasy orcs as well :smallbiggrin: (I could never get on with inks, I only ever base coated and drybrushed!)

horseboy
2008-10-27, 12:41 AM
Personally I'd rather use the Mordheim miniatures for games rather than the shorter LotR minis.
As to "Anti-GM" sentiments, mine comes from base sizes.
Every two years or so GM completely redoes their catalog numbers. All the boxes with the "old" numbering system (and new overstock) gets shipped to GM stores for auction. I got two Hive Tyrants at one of these for $5 each. I build and paint this huge, gaunt heavy (around 110 minatures) 1.5k point army. I go to the Bunker to play my army, around round 5ish they tyrant gets into combat. My opponent calls foul. "That tyrant's not legal, I can't get enough models around it."
"What?"
"You used a smaller base. You're cheating."
"Dude, it's the base it came with."
"No it's not. They come with the same as the Carnivfex."
"Dude, this is the one that came in the box with the model. You're supposed to use that one." He pulls out the 4th edition rule book and shows me where using the smaller base is cheating. I point to the picture of the tyranid army on that page, which includes a hive tyrant on the same sized base I'm using. We flag down an employee, and sure enough, they've changed the size of the base they're now coming out with. No telling anyone, they're not labeled in the rule book what size goes with what. Nope. Just gotta buy a new one periodically and make sure. I was in Baltimore, playing at GW's American Head Quarters and still had no way of knowing. :smallfurious:
They pull that crap all the effing time.
Well, that and the blatant marine favoritism.