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View Full Version : tome of battle in eberron 3.5?



Egiam
2008-10-25, 02:04 PM
Ok, here's the deal.
One player in my 3.5 Eberron group just bought the Tome of Battle (3.5) in an inpulse purchase, and has not had a chance to use it. Another of my players just had her character killed by a living flaming sphere in the Mournland, and is planning a new character. She wants to play a warforged warblade, and I, being the DM, am faced with the dilemma of whether or not I should let her. At this point resurrection is out of the picture. I'm a very plot oriented DM and can't stand gnome barbarian/wizard/sorceror/rouge/clerics multiclassers. Moreover, she wants to multiclass into Psion (Expanded psionics handbook). I hate restricting their character choices, but I also hate having an unfeasable character in the group. Can any of you think up ways to encorporate tome of battle into Eberron?

tahu88810
2008-10-25, 02:06 PM
The warforged was part of a military group that practiced unusual fighting styles in order to gain an advantage in battle? Like a special tactics unit.

kamikasei
2008-10-25, 02:13 PM
The character was a competent fighter. Really, that's all that's necessary; warblades especially don't need any particular fluff associated with what they do. In character most of what she'll do will boil down to "hitting stuff hard and well".

You shouldn't be too worried about the psion multiclass either, from a power perspective; while both classes use intelligence, mixing the two will be weaker than straight-classing either. Psionics is well-incorporated into Eberron, though a psionic warforged may be more restrictive (I believe there's some preexisting fluff around this, or you could just say she's a 'forged with unusual powers and leave it at that).

Oh; I would also sound a note of warning against allowing ToB, psionics, etc. if you're not familiar with them yourself as the DM. Too many "X is overpowered!" stories come about because a player misuses (through cheating or an honest error) a system the DM doesn't know, with the result that good, fun, balanced systems get branded as anathema. It's tragic!

Here's an article on psionics (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20060925a) in Eberron, by the setting author. Sadly I didn't find one on ToB.

Sucrose
2008-10-25, 02:22 PM
In my opinion, you don't need to worry too much about incorporating Warblades into Ebberon, because the effects of his class powers are about the same as a Fighter or Barbarian; he hits something with his sword, and it dies.

The only remotely supernatural discipline open to the Warblade is Stone Dragon, and in most cases, the DR can be argued as just getting lucky, and the strikes are just hitting someone really hard.

That said, if you want to incorporate the Sublime Way as an actual campaign focus, you could put Swordsages wherever you put monks; mystical mountain hideouts, dojos in large cities, whatever. Crusaders are just people gifted by their faith in a manner slightly different than paladins. Warblades could be put in the same place as fighters, or you could make them more mystical, in which case, you'd probably want to treat them as more mundane Swordsages.

Note that I personally think it's better to allow the Warblade's flavor to be fairly mutable, but if you insist on differentiating the character based on class rather than in-game capabilities, that's what I would advise.

Edit: I also would like to second everything that kamikasei said, including the warning about using a system that you are unfamiliar with.

kamikasei
2008-10-25, 02:26 PM
The only remotely supernatural discipline open to the Warblade is Stone Dragon, and in most cases, the DR can be argued as just getting lucky, and the strikes are just hitting someone really hard.

Well, there's also lighning throw which is kind of... silly.


That said, if you want to incorporate the Sublime Way as an actual campaign focus,...

Oh, I should mention that one point of ToB fluff fits Eberron like a glove: the association of the Iron Heart (Warblade-only) school with hobgoblins, who conveniently had an ancient empire of great martial might in Khorvaire. You could say that a Droaamite mercenary was involved in the 'forged's training as part of an experimental program.

Keld Denar
2008-10-25, 02:26 PM
So, you have a problem with ToB's flavor? Or power level? Or what?

Power level wise, ToB is a bit strong, but mostly from the standpoint that it frees melee characters from being stationary fullattack bots. A character using a standard action strike can still take a move action (nice for mobility) and the strike adds a significant enough amount of damage that the lack of a full attack isn't missed as much. A strike seldom does as much damage as a full attack, so there is still an advantage to make a full attack, but ToB grants a lot more options to players, fun and flavorful options. This alone is great reason to use ToB, because why should casters alone have more options than "I full attack" "I full attack again" "I full attack again, with 2 points of PA" "omg, I hate full attacking". With the exception of a couple of things like Stormguard Warrior (combined with a dozen feats that shouldn't be combined) and poorly worded things like Iron Heart Surge (easy fix if you think about it), almost all of ToB is incredibly well balanced. If you have issues with its balance, I refer you to Vael's comic on this forum, I'll get a link to it in a sec. LINKY! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94668)

From a flavor PoV, ToB is what you make of it. Some of it does sound a bit peculier "FIVE SHADOW CREEPING ENERVATION STRIKE ATTACKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK" sounds a bit odd, especially if you've ever seen at least one episode of Sailor Moon or similar. This is ALL fluff though. You can rename your personal maneuvers to whatever you want, so long as you know what page number they reference. Simply calling it Enervating Strike would suffice (not that a Warblade would have that problem, because they don't get that maneuver).

As far as combining ToB with psionics, there generally isn't much in the way of ways to really break it. There is one feat in ToB that deals with your psionic focus and I don't even remember what it does. There are also no good PrCs for combining ToB with psioncs, unless you allow Jade Phoenix Mage to advance ML as it advances Caster Level. The only potential for abuse I could possibly see is if you combined a lot of the Psychic Warrior abilities like Deep Impact and Expansion with strikes, and even that wouldn't be at all overpowered compared to what a normal Warblade with a full IL would do on his own.

So, in closing, I fully support your player and highly encourage you to allow her to play with ToB. Its a lot of fun, and creates a lot of unique combat potential that increases fun for all players. If you are concerned, figure out what the skeleton of her intended build is, and post it here. Most of the forumites here are pretty versed in breaking down builds to determine if they are "strong" or "overpowered" or "weak".

InkEyes
2008-10-25, 02:28 PM
I've always thought the Tome of Battle could be perfectly incorporated into the Kalashtar's study of marital arts. After all, why would they restrict themselves to punching and kicking? The martial maneuvers seem just like the sort of thing a Kalashtar would learn to combat The Inspired. It could also work into your PC's favor because Kalashtar are the major Psionic race in Eberron. Maybe her Warforged studied with some Kalashtar during or after the war and it picked up their fighting style and some psychic abilities.

Temp.
2008-10-25, 02:29 PM
Even without modifying class fluff, Warblade levels mean the character is trained in swordplay and Psion levels mean the character is well-tuned to the workings of her mind. Easy. A hell of a lot easier than dealing with the Ranger class, in my opinion.


[edit for clarification!]: Diamond Mind mechanically supports the same character concept as Psion will. This means a character with three Warblade levels advancing one level in Psion just furthers concepts already supported by class fluff. A character with three levels in Ranger advancing to their fourth will suddenly, out of nowhere, be able to cast spells and attract a friendly animal.

Starbuck_II
2008-10-25, 02:37 PM
From a flavor PoV, ToB is what you make of it. Some of it does sound a bit peculier "FIVE SHADOW CREEPING ENERVATION STRIKE ATTACKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK" sounds a bit odd, especially if you've ever seen at least one episode of Sailor Moon or similar.


You want funny:
"Gentle Uterus" is an actual Sailor Moon attack.
This attack is only seen in the last season (which was never dubbed' though it was subbed)
Sailor Star Maker uses it.

Proven_Paradox
2008-10-25, 02:45 PM
Crusaders are flavor-wise so similar to paladins of the corrisponding alignments that I don't see any reason at all to have them be different; if you can work a paladin in, you can work a crusader in.

Warblades aren't the same fluff-wise as fighters in the book's description, but all it takes is saying "remove warblade's fluff, replace it with fighter or barbarian's" to get them in. Some diamond mind stuff may be a bit supernatural for your tastes, but the rest is pure martial prowess.

Swordsage is a bit stranger, since desert wind, shadow hand, and some diamond mind are thoroughly supernatural in nature. But, barring those, they are essentially equivalent to monks.

I don't think there'll be any fluff problems with the classes. As was said earlier; you should learn the rules too if you can, as most of the "OMG HAX" ToB stories come from players misinterpreting or mis-remembering rules.

bosssmiley
2008-10-25, 02:49 PM
Here's an article on psionics (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20060925a) in Eberron, by the setting author. Sadly I didn't find one on ToB.

IIRC ToB itself has sections on how the classes fit in Faerun & Eberron. Just extrapolate from there...

Devils_Advocate
2008-10-25, 07:45 PM
Magic of Eberron has the Psiforged, whose whole deal is that they're special psionic warforged.

I like the idea of the Sublime Way as a special fighting style that traces back to the Dhakaani Empire.

ToB also introduces a martial adept type of rakshasa. Rakshasas are sort of prominent in Eberron, so maybe you could work that in somehow.

hotel_papa
2008-10-25, 08:24 PM
My Eberron campaign has a swordsage/Mo9, just about the Naruto-ist class in the TOB. His backstory/motivation includes a desire to collect all nine swords and restart his family's temple of the nine, destroyed with the rest of Cyre.

That being said, the Warblade is the easiest to include, just like everyone else is saying. And if he multiclasses into Warmage, he gets his own theme song where he repeatedly questions the validity of his own existance. After all, what IS it good for? Absolutly nothing. Say it again.

HP

Fax Celestis
2008-10-25, 08:26 PM
After all, what IS it good for?

Absolutely nothin'. Lots of XP.

monty
2008-10-25, 08:28 PM
After all, what IS it good for?

If he's good for nothing, then what's a monk good for?

Worira
2008-10-25, 08:59 PM
You could also associate the schools with races.

Iron Heart: Hobgoblins, warforged.
Diamond Mind: Kalashtar, elves.
Tiger Claw: Guess.
Stone Dragon: DORF
Setting Sun: Halflings, gnomes, kalashtar.
Shadow Hand: Elves (Phiarlan/Thuranni), changelings.
White Raven: Every race has leaders.
Devoted Spirit: Paladin fluff.
Desert Wind: Sorcerer fluff

Roderick_BR
2008-10-25, 11:09 PM
Warblades aren't the same fluff-wise as fighters in the book's description, but all it takes is saying "remove warblade's fluff, replace it with fighter or barbarian's" to get them in. Some diamond mind stuff may be a bit supernatural for your tastes, but the rest is pure martial prowess.
If you simplify it, warblades are like fighters, only that they really, really like to fight.
Both characters have the same base concept. They train a lot to fight well with weapons, without magic or psyonics (like a duskblade, paladin, or psyblade would)

Nerd-o-rama
2008-10-26, 12:51 AM
I don't see anything about the Sublime Way or anything related that doesn't fit neatly into Eberron, personally. The flavor and history actually seems to be written more in tune with Eberron than Greyhawk. Just fiddle with a few place names and remember that all the arts are relatively obscure nowadays, and you're good. It's just another way of fighting that differs from standard modern techniques.

Waspinator
2008-10-26, 01:05 AM
Warblade is definitely the easiest ToB class to drop into any campaign, since it basically is just a new set of mechanics for the existing fighter fluff. Crusader also pretty neatly replaces the paladin. Swordsage is a bit more of a stretch, but does do a pretty good job of replacing the monk.

Cheesegear
2008-10-26, 01:10 AM
The warforged was part of a military group that practiced unusual fighting styles in order to gain an advantage in battle? Like a special tactics unit.

The SWATbots?

Project_Mayhem
2008-10-26, 09:09 AM
Did anyone ever write an official 'how-TOB-fits-into-Eberron' guide? ToB itself gives suggestions, but it's mostly left up to you