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Cowboy_ninja
2008-10-26, 03:12 PM
what are all the ways an arcane caster can make matamagic cheaper?

kind of likd how clerics have divine metamagic, what do Sorc/Wiz have?

i'll bet a thread has already been made on this. If so please send me a link.

THANKS!

OzymandiasVolt
2008-10-26, 03:39 PM
The Metamagic School Focus feat lets you reduce the cost of any metamagic feat by one, three times per day, if the feat is used on a spell from the chosen school, no minimum given. Assume +0.
This feat can be found in: Complete Mage.

The Arcane Thesis feat makes each metamagic applied to the chosen spell cost less by one, no minimum given. Assume +0.
This feat can be found in: Player's Handbook 2.

The Ultimate Magus prestige class can use spell slots from one class to pay the cost of metamagic feats used on the other class, a limited number of times per day.
This Prestige Class can be found in: Complete Mage.

The Practical Metamagic feat reduces the cost of a chosen metamagic feat by one, minimum +1.
This feat can be found in: Races of the Dragon.

Metamagic rods are nice, but expensive.
These items can be found in: www.d20srd.com

The Metanode Spell feat reduces the cost of metamagic by the node's class number, no minimum given. Assume minimum +0. It's limited to metamagic used within the area of a node, of course, so not practical for most adventures.
This feat can be found in: Champions of Ruin.

The Residual Magic tactical feat does this: if you cast a spell with a metamagic effect, and then cast it again the next round, the second casting gets the metamagic effect for free. Limitations are: second spell only gets one metamagic effect, even if the first spell had several. Only works with metamagic effects generated by you (no rods, etc.). The free effect doesn't count as metamagic, so among other things it doesn't trigger the feat again.
This feat can be found in: Complete Mage.

Emperor Tippy
2008-10-26, 03:45 PM
Arcane Thesis, Instant Metamagic (either from Incantatrix or the epic feat), and Easy Metamagic (dragon magazine) are the big ones.

The real trick is that with Arcane Thesis you can use +0 metamagic (such as Invisible Spell or Energy Substitution) to gain a -1 that you can apply to some other metamagic.

So let's say that you have Arcane Thesis: Orb of Fire, Energy Substitution: Cold, Energy Adaption: Cold, Easy Metamagic: Energy Adaption, and Invisible Spell.

You could use an Invisible (-1), Energy Substituted (-1), Energy Adapted (+3), Orb of Fire in a 5th level spell slot (+1 total level).

Throw in Instant Metamagic and it doesn't up the level at all (while doubling the damage dealt).

hamishspence
2008-10-26, 03:48 PM
It says Minimum +1 for Arcane Thesis. Doesn't that mean it can't be applied to +0 metamagic feats at all?

Unless there is text somewhere explicitly stating what happens when you apply Arcane thesis to a +0 metamagic effect.

EDIT: Sorry, I was thinking maybe of Improved Metamagic, the Epic feat.

Eldariel
2008-10-26, 03:59 PM
The real trick is that with Arcane Thesis you can use +0 metamagic (such as Invisible Spell or Energy Substitution) to gain a -1 that you can apply to some other metamagic.

This was recently errata'd. There's an added line:
"A spell cannot be reduced below its original level with the use of this feat."

EDIT: The errata is available here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a).

Cowboy_ninja
2008-10-26, 03:59 PM
The Metamagic School Focus feat lets you reduce the cost of any metamagic feat by one, three times per day, if the feat is used on a spell from the chosen school, no minimum given. Assume +0.

The Arcane Thesis feat makes all metamagic applied to the chosen spell cost less by one, no minimum given. Assume +0.

Ultimate Magus PrC can use spell slots from one class to pay the cost of metamagic feats used on the other class, a limited number of times per day.

The Practical Metamagic feat reduces the cost of a chosen metamagic feat by one, minimum +1.

Metamagic rods are nice, but expensive.

The Metanode Spell feat reduces the cost of metamagic by its class number, no minimum given. Assume minimum +0. It's limited to metamagic used within the area of a node, of course, so not practical for most adventures.

The Residual Magic tactical feat does this: if you cast a spell with a metamagic effect, and then cast it again the next round, the second casting gets the metamagic effect for free. Limitations are: second spell only gets one metamagic effect, even if the first spell had several. Only works with metamagic effects generated by you (no rods, etc.). The free effect doesn't count as metamagic, so among other things it doesn't trigger the feat again.

<cartman> I love you guys...

what book is the metanode spell feat in?
what book is the practical metamagic feat in?

Temp.
2008-10-26, 04:25 PM
This was recently errata'd. There's an added line:
"A spell cannot be reduced below its original level with the use of this feat."Right; that only means you can't cast Orb of Fire from 0-level spell slots.

hamishspence
2008-10-26, 04:27 PM
By Original level, doesn't that mean- level it started out as: Fireball, multiple arane-thesis effects, still, at least level 3?

Eldariel
2008-10-26, 04:27 PM
Right; that only means you can't cast Orb of Fire from 0-level spell slots.

Hm, true. I thought they'd have fixed it when they assigned the errata :P Oh well.

hamishspence
2008-10-26, 04:36 PM
I don't get it. Thesis errata seemed to imply Original level. so, Invisible, Energy substituted fireball would still be 3rd level, not 1st.

Though, I suppose lots of 0th level plus lots of + several levels metamagic feats combined, gets round that.

goram.browncoat
2008-10-26, 04:37 PM
Incantatrix prc (players guide to faerun). Almost every single level of the 10 is pure winsauce (not only the instant metamagic). Its so good its cheesy.

Not only can you fix your own spells without spell level adjustments, you can fix those of your fellow party member casters as well, so it has built in "dont hog the spotlight by being too awesome"-protection. All it takes is optimizing your spellcraft checks a bit (+ skill items, aid another from fellow party members, item familiar, ...)

Starbuck_II
2008-10-26, 04:38 PM
Complete Scoundrel has a 3 level Prc (2/3rd progression)) that lets you use a Metamagic feat with no slot adjustment but can't be more than +4. But only 1/day
Magical Trickster.

Greg
2008-10-26, 04:42 PM
Right; that only means you can't cast Orb of Fire from 0-level spell slots.
You're thinking of lesser orb. Orb of fire is a 4th level spell.

AslanCross
2008-10-26, 04:44 PM
Incantatrix is definitely one of the cheesiest best ways to do this.

hamishspence
2008-10-26, 04:46 PM
i think rule is, if you're just using Arcane Thesis, no matter how many -1 adjustments you stack on from Thesised metamagic feats, final level of spell must be original level, or higher.

Which is what you use all those higher level (+1, +2, +3, even after thesis), feats for.

OzymandiasVolt
2008-10-26, 04:52 PM
The RAI is, you can't get negative adjustments from metamagic feats.

RAW, unfortunately, does not spell this out, so TECHNICALLY, you can.

Their mistake was limiting the errata to a specific feat instead of covering metamagic in general.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-10-26, 04:53 PM
By Original level, doesn't that mean- level it started out as: Fireball, multiple arane-thesis effects, still, at least level 3?

That is correct.

The FAQ used a different interpretation before the errata. I guess sometimes it is difficult to make up ones mind...

Kantolin
2008-10-26, 05:12 PM
what book is the metanode spell feat in?
what book is the practical metamagic feat in?

Metanode Spell - Champions of Ruin
Pracitcal Metamagic - Races of the Dragon

Edit: Haha, I didn't realize Ozymandias altered his post. Very informative and thanks - disregard this repetition.

monty
2008-10-26, 05:20 PM
I don't get it. Thesis errata seemed to imply Original level. so, Invisible, Energy substituted fireball would still be 3rd level, not 1st.

Though, I suppose lots of 0th level plus lots of + several levels metamagic feats combined, gets round that.

Yes, but you can still have a Heightened Quickened Twinned Energy Admixed Widened Repeated Maximized Fell Animate Delayed Fell Frighten Fell Drain Explosive Empowered Silent Still Transdimensional Sculpted Fell Weaken Fell Energy Enlarged Blistering Fireball of doom, and with enough +0 adjustments and whatnot it could get back down to level 3.

Anyone care to figure out how to pull that combo off? Or what it would do?

2008-10-26, 07:38 PM
The slaymate, arguably one of the worst D+D monsters, has an aura that makes necromancy spells cast at metamagic -1.

shadow_archmagi
2008-10-26, 07:40 PM
Also, how many -1 level spells per day does a person get?

Temp.
2008-10-26, 09:29 PM
You're thinking of lesser orb. Orb of fire is a 4th level spell.Throw four different energy subs onto it and it would turn into a 0-level spell if it weren't for the errata.

JeminiZero
2008-10-26, 09:47 PM
Dweomerkeeper also eventually gets -1 to all metamagics (to a minimum of +1, or +0 if the metamagic was originally +0). I think its available as a web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a) for the complete divine.

Yukitsu
2008-10-26, 09:48 PM
Sacred exorcist lets you advance arcane, lets you enter as arcane, and has turn undead. Lets you use divine meta.

Anima mage lets you do a free one every 5 rounds.

Ultimate magus can cheapen it a decent amount.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-10-26, 09:56 PM
Sacred exorcist lets you advance arcane, lets you enter as arcane, and has turn undead. Lets you use divine meta.

Anima mage lets you do a free one every 5 rounds.

Ultimate magus can cheapen it a decent amount.

DMM only applies to Divine spells, thus unless you have some way of making your arcane spells divine (Geomancer is the only way I can think of), it's not very practical for arcane users.

However, Practical Metamagic for Still and Silent Spell makes for a caster who cannot be Counterspelled...

JeminiZero
2008-10-26, 10:11 PM
DMM only applies to Divine spells, thus unless you have some way of making your arcane spells divine (Geomancer is the only way I can think of), it's not very practical for arcane users.


There is also Alternate Source Spell (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Alternative_Source_Spell,all).

But you need to splash for 1 divine spell class to get it. Easiest is Cleric which also grants you turn undead for DMM Arcane spell abuse.

Yukitsu
2008-10-26, 10:25 PM
That's only stated in the fluff part of the feat, and not in the benefits mentioned in the ruling, as far as I can tell.

Alternatively, follow up with 10 levels of rainbow disciple.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-10-26, 11:22 PM
I think WotC actually said somewhere that a single casting of a spell cannot benefit from Arcane Thesis more than once, i.e. using one metamagic feat on an Arcane Thesis spell gives it a -1 metamagic cost; using four metamagic feats on an Arcane Thesis spell still gives it only a -1 metamagic cost. I think the reasoning behind it is that feats taken/applied more than once do not stack with themselves, so Arcane Thesis cannot apply more than once to the same spell, it either gets a -1 to the total metamagic cost or it doesn't, the multiple -1's do not stack. Still, you could probably just use Sanctum Spell with Arcane Thesis outside your designated sanctum to make every spell cast from one slot lower, since Sanctum reverse-Heightens it by one level.

Practical Metamagic (RotD) with Easy Metamagic (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Feats.pdf) (Dragon 325) are two great ways of accomplishing it, though each one costs a feat to do so. Easy Metamagic counts as a Metamagic feat, so it can be taken when you get a bonus feat of that type. Note in Practical Metamagic's wording, the spell's level must be one higher after everything is applied. If you get Practical Easy Split Ray and Practical Easy Maximize, you can cast a Maximized Split Enervation for only +1 spell level. According to the rules on applying your own bonuses and penalties in whatever order you choose, Practical Metamagic only checks that it's at +1 when it's applied, and another effect can be added after to further reduce it. Throw on Arcane Thesis and Sanctum Spell and you're dealing eight negative levels from a 3rd level spell slot, though for eight feats.

Incantatrix (PGtF) is a completely broken class, seriously way too good, but it's the best class at improving metamagic. It wouldn't be anywhere near as broken as it is if you weren't able to buff yourself then use Metamagic Effect to add Persistent Spell to your buffs. As long as you take ten on the Spellcraft check, get Skill Focus, and start with at least Int 16 and put every 4th level point into it, you should only need a +20 Competence item to always be able to Persist your highest level spells. Usable Int bonus +3 times per day, it's better than Divine Metamagic. Removing Persistent Spell, or even just not allowing Metamagic Effect to be used with it, would make this class much more reasonable, but still so-good-every-Wizard-takes-it.

Zeful
2008-10-26, 11:34 PM
I think WotC actually said somewhere that a single casting of a spell cannot benefit from Arcane Thesis more than once, i.e. using one metamagic feat on an Arcane Thesis spell gives it a -1 metamagic cost; using four metamagic feats on an Arcane Thesis spell still gives it only a -1 metamagic cost. I think the reasoning behind it is that feats taken/applied more than once do not stack with themselves, so Arcane Thesis cannot apply more than once to the same spell, it either gets a -1 to the total metamagic cost or it doesn't, the multiple -1's do not stack. Still, you could probably just use Sanctum Spell with Arcane Thesis outside your designated sanctum to make every spell cast from one slot lower, since Sanctum reverse-Heightens it by one level.

That's because of the Type Stacking rules, however the -1 is technically unnamed and technically a penalty so it doesn't apply in either case.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-10-26, 11:37 PM
That's because of the Type Stacking rules, however the -1 is technically unnamed and technically a penalty so it doesn't apply in either case.
Untyped bonuses and penalties from the same source never stack.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-10-27, 12:54 AM
I think WotC actually said somewhere that a single casting of a spell cannot benefit from Arcane Thesis more than once, i.e. using one metamagic feat on an Arcane Thesis spell gives it a -1 metamagic cost; using four metamagic feats on an Arcane Thesis spell still gives it only a -1 metamagic cost. I think the reasoning behind it is that feats taken/applied more than once do not stack with themselves, so Arcane Thesis cannot apply more than once to the same spell, it either gets a -1 to the total metamagic cost or it doesn't, the multiple -1's do not stack. Still, you could probably just use Sanctum Spell with Arcane Thesis outside your designated sanctum to make every spell cast from one slot lower, since Sanctum reverse-Heightens it by one level.

The errata changed that and allowed multiple reductions as long as the reductions do not bring the spell slot below the original spell level.

Cowboy_ninja
2008-10-27, 01:13 AM
Sacred exorcist lets you advance arcane, lets you enter as arcane, and has turn undead. Lets you use divine meta.

Anima mage lets you do a free one every 5 rounds.

Ultimate magus can cheapen it a decent amount.

what books are the first two in?

sacred exorcist says you must be able to cast dismissal or disspell evil. can wizards do that?

Talic
2008-10-27, 01:16 AM
I think WotC actually said somewhere that a single casting of a spell cannot benefit from Arcane Thesis more than once, i.e. using one metamagic feat on an Arcane Thesis spell gives it a -1 metamagic cost; using four metamagic feats on an Arcane Thesis spell still gives it only a -1 metamagic cost. I think the reasoning behind it is that feats taken/applied more than once do not stack with themselves, so Arcane Thesis cannot apply more than once to the same spell, it either gets a -1 to the total metamagic cost or it doesn't, the multiple -1's do not stack. Still, you could probably just use Sanctum Spell with Arcane Thesis outside your designated sanctum to make every spell cast from one slot lower, since Sanctum reverse-Heightens it by one level.


So, if you have a +1 suit of armor, and a +1 shield, and an item that grants a +1 enhancement bonus to Natural armor, the enhancement bonuses don't stack?

Oh wait, they do. That's because each enhancement applies to the individual seperate part(armor, shield, or natural armor), not the wearer.

And Arcane Thesis lowers the cost of each metamagic feat. There's no stacking violation because lowering the cost of energy substitution (fire) has no effect on the cost of Maximize spell.

Just because you eventually combine all the numbers together to get a total (like AC) doesn't change that.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-10-27, 01:42 AM
So, if you have a +1 suit of armor, and a +1 shield, and an item that grants a +1 enhancement bonus to Natural armor, the enhancement bonuses don't stack?

Oh wait, they do. That's because each enhancement applies to the individual seperate part(armor, shield, or natural armor), not the wearer.

And Arcane Thesis lowers the cost of each metamagic feat. There's no stacking violation because lowering the cost of energy substitution (fire) has no effect on the cost of Maximize spell.

Just because you eventually combine all the numbers together to get a total (like AC) doesn't change that.


When you apply a metamagic feat other than Heighten Spell to that spell, the enhanced spell uses up a spell slot one level lower than normal.
That's like using a suit of armor, a shield, and an amulet that each say, "When wearing this item, add a +1 Enhancement bonus to your AC." Arcane Thesis only affects the spell itself, it has no effect on the metamagic feats used on that spell. Therefore, this benefit either applies or it doesn't apply, but trying to apply this benefit more than once to that spell doesn't work, because the same feat applied more than once cannot stack.

Talic
2008-10-27, 01:45 AM
That's like using a suit of armor, a shield, and an amulet that each say, "When wearing this item, add a +1 Enhancement bonus to your AC." Arcane Thesis only affects the spell itself, it has no effect on the metamagic feats used on that spell. Therefore, this benefit either applies or it doesn't apply, but trying to apply this benefit more than once to that spell doesn't work, because the same feat applied more than once cannot stack.

I refer you to post 31.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-10-27, 01:49 AM
I refer you to post 31.

I know it works now, I read the errata, it changed "metamagic feat" into "metamagic feats" thereby implying that a spell can benefit from it more than once. I was saying that before the errata, it wouldn't have applied more than once as-written, in agreement with WotC's ruling at the time.

Talic
2008-10-27, 01:54 AM
I know it works now, I read the errata, it changed "metamagic feat" into "metamagic feats" thereby implying that a spell can benefit from it more than once. I was saying that before the errata, it wouldn't have applied more than once as-written, in agreement with WotC's ruling at the time.

Who cares about how anything USED to work? I mean really, what's the point of bickering over, "Well, in my day..." ? If it works, it works. Don't try to confuse the situation with outdated, pre-errata information that is neither relevant nor useful.

Yukitsu
2008-10-27, 11:15 AM
what books are the first two in?

sacred exorcist says you must be able to cast dismissal or disspell evil. can wizards do that?

Complete divine, tome of magic and by level 9.