Class and Level Geekery IV (some [spoiler]s) [Archive] - Page 4

Dagren

2009-04-27, 06:16 PM

Uncanny Dodge only works against flanking, not against other ways of obtaining sneak attack (such as being caught flat-footed). Also, it's possible that Haley (a pure rogue) has at least four more rogue levels than Crystal does (who could easily have a bunch of fighter levels since she's considered a very poor thief).No.

Uncanny Dodge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#uncannyDodge)
Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.The only way to Sneak Attack a Rogue with Uncanny dodge is to immobilise them. (Or flank them, that's where the Improved version comes in)

It's been pointed out (in another thread, I think) that 4 sneak attacks should have easily killed Crystal, so it's likely that Haley is mistaken and they weren't in fact sneak attacks (until she immobilised Crystal and finished her with the dagger, anyway)

Kurald Galain

2009-04-27, 06:23 PM

No.
The only way to Sneak Attack a Rogue with Uncanny dodge is to immobilise them. (Or flank them, that's where the Improved version comes in)

Okay, good point. Let me point out some alternative theories,

(1) Crystal has at least four levels in something other than rogue or assassin;
(2) Haley has a feat or magical item that allows her to sneak attack anyway; or
(3) Crystal is too dumb to remember how her class features work (which, admittedly, is becoming a running joke in the comic)

Dagren

2009-04-27, 06:34 PM

(1) Crystal has at least four levels in something other than rogue or assassin;You still don't seem to get it; the regular version of uncanny dodge has no mention of the 4 level thing from the improved version.

(2) Haley has a feat or magical item that allows her to sneak attack anyway;If you can think of one, feel free to point it out.

(3) Crystal is too dumb to remember how her class features work (which, admittedly, is becoming a running joke in the comic)Possible, but if so I'd have thought it would have been mentioned. Not to mention the last part of my post, in which I pointed out that 4 sneak attacks should easily kill any character of similar level, yet Crystal survived. From all that, the logical conclusion is that they weren't in fact sneak attacks.

SPoD

2009-04-27, 06:51 PM

May I suggest that there is no evidence that Crystal has taken more than one level in the Assassin class? She mentions a Death Attack several times, but that is gained at first level. Uncanny Dodge is gained at second.

Crystal can be a Rogue 3/Fighter 10/Assassin 1 and not have any Uncanny Dodge at all, and still do everything we have seen her do. It would also account for her oft-commented-upon crappy rogue abilities.

Charmy

2009-04-28, 02:35 AM

Crystal can be a Rogue 3/Fighter 10/Assassin 1 and not have any Uncanny Dodge at all, and still do everything we have seen her do. It would also account for her oft-commented-upon crappy rogue abilities.

If she really had that many fighter levels, you'd think she'd fare much better than she did against Belkar no? She'd have combat feats out the wazoo, high BAB, mostly d10 hit dice and three attacks - and yet her performance was pitiful.

You could always argue that she's stupid and she topped Belkar in building her character in the absolute worst, unoptimized way possible (maybe she took feats like Weapon Focus: Gnomish Hooked Hammer), but I'd say its way more likely that they weren't sneak attacks and the Giant (or Haley?) slipped up.

Nerdanel

2009-04-28, 05:06 AM

Quoting my post from another thread:

Well, Haley is making some 4d8 + 4d6 + 4 * 5 + 4 points of damage with her initial attack (assuming 1d6 cold damage and 5 generic enchantment damage from the bow per shot, plus the Point Blank Shot feat we know Haley must have).

Minimum: 32
Maximum: 80
Average: 56

If Crystal is level 15, she has 14d8 + 8 hitpoints, assuming no con bonus or penalty. This gives an average of 71 hitpoints, making it possible for Haley to drop her on a good attack.

But wait: Crystal was visibly wounded in the adventure to recover the Roy golem and was therefore below her maximum hitpoints. She still has visible scratches when she comes to answer the door. That makes it possible for Haley to drop her on a more average attack and/or drop her even if she has a positive con modifier.

So, Haley could have dropped Crystal in one turn completely without any bonus damage from Sneak Attack (which wouldn't apply). Therefore the strip is not in error.

I think Haley said Sneak Attack out of habit and because trying it doesn't do any harm even if it doesn't apply.

Kurald Galain

2009-04-28, 07:41 AM

Quoting my post from another thread:

That is decent analysis, except that I would find it very strange if Crystal does not have a con bonus. Pretty much every melee character can easily have a con mod of +2. Also, Crystal is supposed to be about as powerful as Haley, which means she has decent overall ability scores, and they surely aren't her mental ones. To counter for that, Haley probably has a strength bonus.

On the other hand, if Haley were getting Sneak Attacks, she'd do +7d6 damage per hit, or +98 damage on average. That strikes me as overkill.

Dark Matter

2009-04-28, 12:03 PM

On the other hand, if Haley were getting Sneak Attacks, she'd do +7d6 damage per hit, or +98 damage on average. That strikes me as overkill.Especially since Crystal wasn't at her full hit point level. Out of the shower she had multiple "injury" markers, presumably left over from her fight with Roy's master's minions.

Amon Star

2009-04-29, 09:13 AM

Hate to be unnoticed. Once again:
Shouldnt we add Mr. Scruffy as a animal companion?
He seems to be listening to him, and is effective in battle more than a usual cat would be...

He's already listed under equipment, so I guess Wrecan thinks that's good enough.

CasESenSITItiVE

2009-04-29, 02:23 PM

sorry if this has been addressed before (it's a large thread:smalleek:) but are we still holding V as non-evil?i think certain post splice actions should be considered

Wrecan

2009-04-29, 02:38 PM

He's already listed under equipment, so I guess Wrecan thinks that's good enough.

I need to see Mr. Scruffy and/or Belkar exhibit any of the powers that comes from having an animal companion. It's not enough for Scruffy to hang out with Belkar. I'm confident Scruffy is now Belkar's animal companion, but I'm not Geekery confident. :smallbiggrin:

Dixieboy

2009-04-29, 02:47 PM

sorry if this has been addressed before (it's a large thread:smalleek:) but are we still holding V as non-evil?i think certain post splice actions should be considered

Yes, yes. Let us consider whether or not murdering an entire family of mass murdering, thieving, lying, scheming monsters who eat humans is enough for an alignment shift.

While it was certainly not a good act. (Probably evil) i think we need to look at things in perspective.

Are we certain enough that his alignment has been changed on his sheet?
No we are not.

Dagren

2009-04-29, 03:50 PM

I need to see Mr. Scruffy and/or Belkar exhibit any of the powers that comes from having an animal companion. It's not enough for Scruffy to hang out with Belkar. I'm confident Scruffy is now Belkar's animal companion, but I'm not Geekery confident. :smallbiggrin:Out of curiosity, what powers exactly are you referring to? I've checked the SRD, but I can't find any visually obvious powers that Mr. Scruffy should have.

Wrecan

2009-04-29, 04:21 PM

Shared Spells or Improved Evasion, most likely. Though, Belkar actually referencing Scruffy's extra HD, Bonus Tricks, or their link would work just as well.

Dagren

2009-04-29, 04:49 PM

Shared Spells or Improved Evasion, most likely. Though, Belkar actually referencing Scruffy's extra HD, Bonus Tricks, or their link would work just as well.What spells? :smalltongue:

Aaron

2009-04-29, 08:46 PM

What spells? :smalltongue:

Exactly. Belkar can't cast spells. His Wisdom score is WAY too low. For a ranger's animal companion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm):
This ability functions like the druid ability of the same name, except that the ranger’s effective druid level is one-half his ranger level. A ranger may select from the alternative lists of animal companions just as a druid can, though again his effective druid level is half his ranger level. Like a druid, a ranger cannot select an alternative animal if the choice would reduce his effective druid level below 1st.
So since Belkar is level 13 or 14, divide that by two and that would put Mr. Scruffy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm)at 4 extra HD and natural armor, 2 extra STR and DEX, 3 bonus tricks, and for Feats: Link, share spells (useless for Belkar), evasion, and devotion.
But we still don't know if Mr. Scruffy is Belkar's animal companion, or a normal companion.:smallsmile:

Ceric

2009-05-03, 09:29 PM

Call me stupid, but how does 556 demonstrate that Durkon is 13th level? All I see is the three of them getting out from underneath a net, without demonstrating any special abilities.

Pyron

2009-05-03, 09:44 PM

Call me stupid, but how does 556 demonstrate that Durkon is 13th level? All I see is the three of them getting out from underneath a net, without demonstrating any special abilities.

:durkon: "Holy wor... ow!"

Durkon was about to cast Holy Word if the orcs didn't get all their AoO's. It's a 7th level spell, thus Durkon is at least 13th level.

Nerdanel

2009-05-07, 01:33 PM

Based on #650, I think we can say that V has zero ranks in Knowledge (religion) while Haley has some.

Wrecan

2009-05-07, 05:13 PM

Knowledge (Religion) doesn't tell you the castign time of a divine spell.

The difference is that Haley has read the rulebooks, because she's sneaky and she'll use whatever rules-lawyering advantage she can get.

Vaarsuvius never bothered to read the rulebooks outside the Wizard spell list.

King of Nowhere

2009-05-07, 05:31 PM

I think knowing the basics about class abilities and spells is just general adventurer's knowledge, no skill points required.
Otherwise they should have no idea about the resistance of monsters without spending a ton of skill points in knowledge

Porthos

2009-05-07, 10:14 PM

Otherwise they should have no idea about the resistance of monsters without spending a ton of skill points in knowledge

To quote V: What would the problem with that be? :smalltongue:

Chronos

2009-05-08, 05:26 PM

If we're going by game mechanics, knowing the casting time of Resurrection should, if anything, be a Spellcraft roll, and it's hard to imagine that Vaarsuvius doesn't have Spellcraft, or that Haley has a higher Spellcraft than Vaarsuvius. In fact, we can be absolutely certain that Vaarsuvius has at least one rank in Spellcraft, since e's added spells to es book, which requires a trained-only Spellcraft check. And right now, e has at least 24 ranks, since e's able to cast epic spells.

shadzar

2009-05-08, 06:05 PM

But V didn't even realized that even a Power Word, a single word, required 7 pages in a spellbook. So Haley could know more about a spell than V, or maybe Haley has seen them used before, and therefore doesn't require anything other than a memory check.

Kaytara

2009-05-08, 06:49 PM

Don't forget that Haley didn't know that Sending takes ten minutes to cast. Rather than anything meaningful concerning her Spellcraft knowledge, I think it's reasonable to assume that she's just the more experienced and resourceful adventurer and has thus spent time learning about certain crucial details about this profession.

Zevox

2009-05-10, 08:11 PM

It would seem, based on #652, that Xykon is higher level than previously thought.

We just saw him cast a Maximized Energy Drain. That's a 12th-level spell slot, which requires him to have taken the epic feat Improved Spell Capacity at least 3 times to have access to. And since we know he has the epic feat Epic Spellcasting as well (since he is able to cast Cloister, an epic spell), he has a minimum of 4 epic feats. Assuming he's a straight Sorcerer, that means he is at a minimum level 26 (he'd gain feats at the regular levels of 21 and 24, and epic Sorcerer bonus feats at levels 23 and 26).

Zevox

Logalmier

2009-05-10, 08:52 PM

Isn't Vampiric Touch a necromancy spell? Because it lists V as having it when necromancy is a banned school for her.

baerdith

2009-05-10, 09:54 PM

MoelVermillion

2009-05-10, 10:04 PM

You guys know the rules better then me so I'm going to ask, is it possible to use a "Greater Rod of MetaMagic: Maximize" on an energy drain spell? If so I think that Xykon may have done that as it is more consistent with the level we previously thought him to be.

Chronos

2009-05-10, 10:42 PM

Day'um!!!
652: Xykon just cast a *12th* level spell!
This pegs him at at least 34 Charisma and 26th level to get the three epic feats to cast a 12th level spell..... plus the Epic Spellcasting we already knew he had.He would only need a 34 Cha to get a bonus 12th-level spell, but he only needs a 22 (which tells us nothing new) for the first one.

You guys know the rules better then me so I'm going to ask, is it possible to use a "Greater Rod of MetaMagic: Maximize" on an energy drain spell?Possible, but a metamagic rod has to be held in hand to be used, and we can see both of his empty hands.

Oh, and it's kind of anticlimactic after seeing a 12th-level spell slot used, but we also now know that Xykon has Craft Wondrous Item, since he's installed magic traps.

Illven

2009-05-10, 10:56 PM

Xykon does need a 34 charisma if he is casting a 12 th level spell because he doesn't gain one unless he would gain a "bonus slot"

Yendor

2009-05-10, 11:11 PM

Xykon does need a 34 charisma if he is casting a 12 th level spell because he doesn't gain one unless he would gain a "bonus slot"

No, you've got it backwards. The feat gives him a 12th level spell slot; he can't get a bonus 12th level spell slot unless he already has a 12th level slot, regardless of his charisma.

with an e

2009-05-10, 11:16 PM

Actually, Xykon could use improved metamagic to replace 2 levels of improved spell capacity, in which case he would only need a level 10 slot but still 4 epic feats (epic spellcasting, improved spell capacity, and improved metamagic x2).

Well, technically he could still be level 21 if he is a 1 specialist wizard/5 red wizard/15 sorcerer, but that is is rather unlikely, given how much he hates wizards.

The 34 charisma is for getting a bonus L12 spell slot (e.g. 2 level 12 spell slots with 1 improvement for level 12 from improved spell capacity). It's not what's required to use level 12 slots. The feat itself grants the first slot, not just open up the spell level.

Yendor

2009-05-10, 11:25 PM

Actually, Xykon could use improved metamagic to replace 2 levels of improved spell capacity, in which case he would only need a level 10 slot but still 4 epic feats (epic spellcasting, improved spell capacity, and improved metamagic x2).

Wouldn't he need to be level 27 to have sufficient ranks in Spellcraft to get Improved Metamagic?

Tomada

2009-05-10, 11:47 PM

Why didn't Xykon need a full round to cast maximized energy drain?

He cast Energy drain in the round before, than a maximized before V acted...

RMS Oceanic

2009-05-11, 12:33 AM

I see that as a full round action.

- He dodges V's attack, in V's turn
- Talks a bit, a free action
- Drops the Drain

As for Improved Spell Capacity, as seen on this page (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm) you definately need one instance of the feat per new spell level. That means he has at least four epic feats (Epic Spellcasting, Improved Spell Capacity x 3), which a straight sorceror can gain at a minimum level of 26. So now we know.

Zevox

2009-05-11, 12:50 AM

Wouldn't he need to be level 27 to have sufficient ranks in Spellcraft to get Improved Metamagic?
Indeed he would. Maximum ranks in any one skill is your level +3, minimum spellcraft ranks to take Improved Metamagic is 30. And to have two copies of it he'd need to be level 29 (he could gain the first at level 27 with his normal feat, the second he'd have to wait for 29 for his third epic bonus feat).

Which means the simpler explanation is level 26 with 3 Improved Spell Capacity feats.

Zevox

Borris

2009-05-11, 01:23 AM

So, V has an Int modifier of at least +6.
Given that a lich can have as little as 11 HD, it should be a DC 21 Knowledge (religion) check to recognize a lich without error, and remember a bit of useful information about that monster. Making a DC 26 check would allow you to recall another piece of useful information.

Given that energy immunities are almost always listed first in the new books, I'm pretty sure remembering that a lich is immune to cold and electricity wouldn't fall below a DC 26 Knowledge (religion) check - and probably make it as a DC 21. The Monster Lore Compendium thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=10778540&postcount=333) on Wizard's forums marks it down as a DC 33, though.

I'd say that shows V has no ranks in Knowledge (religion), but that's just personal perception. Sure, we could be extra prudent, and say V has less than 14 ranks, otherwise the DC 21 check could have been made on a natural 1. But saying that a level 14 character has no more than 14 ranks in a given skill doesn't really have much weight.

Tomada

2009-05-11, 01:23 AM

Illven

2009-05-11, 05:36 AM

No, you've got it backwards. The feat gives him a 12th level spell slot; he can't get a bonus 12th level spell slot unless he already has a 12th level slot, regardless of his charisma.

Wow have I been reading it wrong sorry nevermind

emeraldstreak

2009-05-11, 05:56 AM

Amon Star

2009-05-11, 08:00 AM

Isn't Vampiric Touch a necromancy spell? Because it lists V as having it when necromancy is a banned school for her.

In Third Edition, V only needed one Barred School. That's why Vampiric Touch is in his book, though he can't cast it know, thanks to the rules change.
You're overthinking this.

It's just a Sudden Maximize from CA.

It didn't say Sudden Maximize, though. And every time non-core stuff is used it's commented on, but it wasn't this time.

B9anders

2009-05-11, 09:09 AM

It didn't say Sudden Maximize, though. And every time non-core stuff is used it's commented on, but it wasn't this time.

"Maximized Energy Drain" was the cliffhanger. Nothing happens after a cliffhanger.

And xykon's moderately escapable forcecage was only commented on several strips later.

King of Nowhere

2009-05-11, 12:31 PM

isocum

2009-05-11, 01:08 PM

I think there are some magic items that let you metamagic a spell without having the slot. At worst, they may be houseruled items.
Thinking Xykon is level 26 seems a bit excessive to me. He can't really have gained more than one level after the battle. And I don't think he was that high before.
Probably it will be explained in one of the next strips

afaik the level 21 thing was the calculated minimum for xykon, according to his ability to cast epic level spells, and his comment on the difference between roy and himself("7, 8? more?" line). it does not mean he can't have more.

Kurald Galain

2009-05-11, 05:12 PM

Oh, and it's kind of anticlimactic after seeing a 12th-level spell slot used, but we also now know that Xykon has Craft Wondrous Item, since he's installed magic traps.
Actually, that could have been Redcloak (whom we know has CWI since he crafted Xykon's soul hidey place). It also feels more in character for Redcloak to spend an afternoon trapping the place while Xykon stands behind him sneering about it.

Well, technically he could still be level 21 if he is a 1 specialist wizard/5 red wizard/15 sorcerer,
Um, no. Xykon is so not a wizard, this has even been a plot point a few times.

Aaron

2009-05-11, 05:43 PM

Actually, that could have been Redcloak (whom we know has CWI since he crafted Xykon's soul hidey place). It also feels more in character for Redcloak to spend an afternoon trapping the place while Xykon stands behind him sneering about it.

Um, no. Xykon is so not a wizard, this has even been a plot point a few times.

Actually, Xykon does have a Craft feat, as he says in comic 543 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html). Most likely Xykon and Redcloak made the traps together, as it reduces the total time needed to make items. And making special magical traps fall under the Wondrous Item category.

JeptCloak

2009-05-12, 05:27 AM

afaik the level 21 thing was the calculated minimum for xykon, according to his ability to cast epic level spells, and his comment on the difference between roy and himself("7, 8? more?" line). it does not mean he can't have more.

Unless of course, Durkon could dispel his invisbility, which he could.

Plus, he's never been portrayed as anything like as high as 26. It's a gyp.

B9anders

2009-05-12, 05:36 AM

Probably it will be explained in one of the next strips

And that is of course why it's a cliffhanger. All this jumping to conclusions is silly.

Dagren

2009-05-12, 07:32 AM

Unless of course, Durkon could dispel his invisbility, which he could.

Plus, he's never been portrayed as anything like as high as 26. It's a gyp.You really don't understand the concept of a lower limit at all, do you? Just because he never showed off his greatest abilities before, he must not have them? What kind of ridiculous attitude is that?

Kurald Galain

2009-05-12, 09:05 AM

You really don't understand the concept of a lower limit at all, do you? Just because he never showed off his greatest abilities before, he must not have them? What kind of ridiculous attitude is that?

The point is that Greater Dispel Magic depends on caster level; in order for Durkon's dispel to have any effect on Xykon's greater invis spell, the difference in casting levels can't be too great.

Durkon's check is 1d20 + his level; this must match or exceed 11 + Xykon's level. Since Durkon was level 13 at the time, Xykon must have been 22nd or less during the war, or the dispel would never have worked.

Belial_the_Leveler

2009-05-12, 09:28 AM

Inquisition domain; +4 to dispels. After all, all trees must be hunted down and exterminated so the domain fits. :smalltongue:

quick_comment

2009-05-12, 10:08 AM

Or they use open ended rolls in the comic.

Dagren

2009-05-12, 10:32 AM

The point is that Greater Dispel Magic depends on caster level; in order for Durkon's dispel to have any effect on Xykon's greater invis spell, the difference in casting levels can't be too great.

Durkon's check is 1d20 + his level; this must match or exceed 11 + Xykon's level. Since Durkon was level 13 at the time, Xykon must have been 22nd or less during the war, or the dispel would never have worked.Uh-huh. And if he used a scroll? How does that factor into your calculations?

Snake-Aes

2009-05-12, 10:37 AM

Uh-huh. And if he used a scroll? How does that factor into your calculations?

Makes a surprising amount of sense. They planned that con long before the battle. Acquiring a scroll would suffice since the only need was to bypass their defenses, and it'd save a spell.

isocum

2009-05-12, 11:53 AM

Durkon's check is 1d20 + his level; this must match or exceed 11 + Xykon's level. Since Durkon was level 13 at the time, Xykon must have been 22nd or less during the war, or the dispel would never have worked.

i thought it was durkon level + 1d20 must be equal/greater than spells level + 11 to dispel. granted, i am not familiar with d&d except crpgs, but a spell being more difficult to dispel according to it's caster doesn't make much sense to me. except using maximize or some buff like that, people use same energy(level) to cast any given spell, and they cast it exactly same way.

Kurald Galain

2009-05-12, 01:15 PM

Uh-huh. And if he used a scroll? How does that factor into your calculations?
Durkon is explicitly shown not using a scroll, so I suppose you mean Xykon. However...

Makes a surprising amount of sense. They planned that con long before the battle. Acquiring a scroll would suffice since the only need was to bypass their defenses, and it'd save a spell.
Xykon doesn't plan, nor save spells. Both have been plot points in the past, and Redcloak has pointed out the lack of planning.

Or they use open ended rolls in the comic.
Sorry, but Occam's Razor is a prerequisite for this thread. We assume D&D rules and no houserules unless there's explicit evidence to the contrary, so there are no open ended rolls.

i thought it was durkon level + 1d20 must be equal/greater than spells level + 11 to dispel.
Nope. You can look it up on d20srd.org.

Really, though, is it so hard to believe that Xykon leveled up as a result of taking over a city, not to mention surviving an encounter against multiple paladin ghosts, at least one of which was Epic?

Pyron

2009-05-12, 07:00 PM

Really, though, is it so hard to believe that Xykon leveled up as a result of taking over a city, not to mention surviving an encounter against multiple paladin ghosts, at least one of which was Epic?

Either that or the law of rival's and PC level applies to Xykon. Which might make some sense considering how the BBEG is the rival to the entire party.

quick_comment

2009-05-12, 07:38 PM

Really, though, is it so hard to believe that Xykon leveled up as a result of taking over a city, not to mention surviving an encounter against multiple paladin ghosts, at least one of which was Epic?

Leveled up? No, thats reasonable. Leveled up 5 times? No way.

The most probably explanation for the maximized energy drain is sudden maximize. It is also possible that Xykon has incantrix levels, and is using instant metamagic. Is it possible that he has a banned school?

A third possibility is that he has action points. There is some feat that lets you blow action points for metamagic.

Stormthorn

2009-05-12, 07:49 PM

A: How do you guys know Durkon wasnt a higher level than your assuming
B: What if he rolled a 20?
C: Could X have gotten a minion to cast the spell for him?
D: How much XP does he (X), as a rival the entire party, get as they level up?
E: How much XP does defeating a city get him?
F: Magic items?

Sorry, but Occam's Razor is a prerequisite for this thread. We assume D&D rules and no houserules unless there's explicit evidence to the contrary, so there are no open ended rolls.

Hasnt Rich stated that he breaks DnD rules as needed? What ever possessed you to assume that the core rules where the default? The simplest answer here as that Rich just pulls levels out of his...hat...when he feels like it.

Aaron

2009-05-12, 07:52 PM

Leveled up? No, thats reasonable. Leveled up 5 times? No way.

The most probably explanation for the maximized energy drain is sudden maximize. It is also possible that Xykon has incantrix levels, and is using instant metamagic. Is it possible that he has a banned school?

A third possibility is that he has action points. There is some feat that lets you blow action points for metamagic.

...?...uh, OOTS world is in edition 3.5, not 4.0.

Dagren

2009-05-12, 08:09 PM

Hasnt Rich stated that he breaks DnD rules as needed? What ever possessed you to assume that the core rules where the default? The simplest answer here as that Rich just pulls levels out of his...hat...when he feels like it.Yes, Rich has said that he breaks the rules as needed, but that doesn't change the fact that the rules as written are still the default assumption unless contradicted.

JaxGaret

2009-05-12, 08:12 PM

Leveled up? No, thats reasonable. Leveled up 5 times? No way.

It would be 4 times. From 22nd to 26th. That's if Durkon didn't have any bonuses to his GDM check, which is entirely possible, since there are many ways to increase CL or to increase Dispel checks, or if he was a level or two higher.

Question: why is everyone assuming that Xykon has the Epic Spellcasting feat? What comic was that stated in?

Dagren

2009-05-12, 08:25 PM

quick_comment

2009-05-12, 08:28 PM

...?...uh, OOTS world is in edition 3.5, not 4.0.

Uh...duh?

Question: why is everyone assuming that Xykon has the Epic Spellcasting feat? What comic was that stated in

He was able to cast Cloister, which means he can cast epic spells, which means he has the epic spellcasting feat.

Raenir Salazar

2009-05-12, 08:31 PM

Uh...duh?

He was able to cast Cloister, which means he can cast epic spells, which means he has the epic spellcasting feat.

did he actually cast cloister or was it simply activating an amulet?

shadzar

2009-05-12, 08:36 PM

did he actually cast cloister or was it simply activating an amulet?

I have been asking that for a long time. Xykon claims he thinks it is a focus for a spell. The question would become how did he learn the spell that Durokon created. He could have riffled through his stuff and found it and maybe learned the spell, or the amulet could be the thing that casts the spell using X slots of the caster, even draining the caster of all other spellcasting abilities for the rest of a day. :smalleek:

There is nothing I have seen yet that says the amulet isn't casting the spell.

JaxGaret

2009-05-12, 08:39 PM

The Cloister was cast off of the amulet. Dorukan himself cast it with the amulet. So did Xykon.

I wouldn't put it past Xykon to skip over the Epic Spellcasting feat and go straight for ISC x3. Would be just like him to do something like that.

That would put him at level 24 minimum, much more reasonable.

Flickerdart

2009-05-12, 08:40 PM

A: How do you guys know Durkon wasnt a higher level than your assuming
B: What if he rolled a 20?
C: Could X have gotten a minion to cast the spell for him?
D: How much XP does he (X), as a rival the entire party, get as they level up?
E: How much XP does defeating a city get him?
F: Magic items?

Hasnt Rich stated that he breaks DnD rules as needed? What ever possessed you to assume that the core rules where the default? The simplest answer here as that Rich just pulls levels out of his...hat...when he feels like it.
He's not a rival, he's the BBEG. There is a significant difference.

Y'nokhs

2009-05-12, 08:42 PM

It would be 4 times. From 22nd to 26th. That's if Durkon didn't have any bonuses to his GDM check, which is entirely possible, since there are many ways to increase CL or to increase Dispel checks, or if he was a level or two higher.

Question: why is everyone assuming that Xykon has the Epic Spellcasting feat? What comic was that stated in?

I don't see anything wrong with four levels. NPC's are not bound by the same rules as PC's in regard to leveling. If they were, they would get a massive amount of RP XP (their always in character:smallamused:) and major Quest XP every time they did some sort of badass evil act (like conquering a city.) From a meta perspective, NPC's are whatever level the DM needs them to be, and so the BBEG will always have a good advantage over the PC's. From an in-game standpoint, killing stuff and doing quest-type things aren't the only way to become more potent. Seeing that A. he dosn't need to sleep B. has nothing better to do and C. has an entire city worth of resources at his beck and call, he could have spent several months practicing and improving his power. We know he has Epic Spellcasting because of Cloister, which was explicitly stated to be an epic spell by Celia, who knew its creator. Since most probably he has 20+ ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) (thus 2 Epic Spell slots) and Cloister lasts so long, I wouldn't be surprised if he's also developed an epic of his own in this time.

Addendum: The headband was said to be the focus for cloister - material components are used in ELH, so I would assume focuses are game. It could be possible that both Xykon and Celia were mistaken/lying about Cloister, but that stretches credibility

tyckspoon

2009-05-12, 08:45 PM

There is nothing I have seen yet that says the amulet isn't casting the spell.

Well, there's Da Rulez, for whatever weight you give them:
Metamagic, Items, and Epic Spells

A character can’t craft a magic item that casts an epic spell, regardless of whether the item is activated with spell completion, a spell trigger, a command word, or is use-activated. Only major artifacts, which are beyond the means of even epic characters to create, can possibly contain magic of this power. (em added)

If you wanted to actually form Cloister under the normal process, the headband would just be a mitigating factor (ad hoc: requires valuable focus, -whatever.) The headband could even be a unique magic item whose only purpose is to be the focus of Cloister. What it cannot do under its own power is actually cast the spell.

Dagren

2009-05-12, 09:04 PM

There is nothing I have seen yet that says the amulet isn't casting the spell.Is there any evidence that Xykon's crown isn't casting Energy Drain for him? I don't remember him casting it before retrieving it from Roy. (Note: I don't actually want to hear your evidence, I'm just pointing out how dumb this argument is. The point is that there is no evidence that the amulet is casting it for him)

shadzar

2009-05-12, 09:08 PM

Well, there's Da Rulez, for whatever weight you give them:

Metamagic, Items, and Epic Spells

A character can’t craft a magic item that casts an epic spell,

Player or non-player? Define character. What rules exist in 3.x for the Crimson Mantle? Starmetal and its properties including weapons made form it affecting undead in any manner, weight of it required to make a sword? TeeVo device for recording things on a widescreen scrying crystal? Soul splices?

There is a lot of things that can appear in a campaign that are outside of the rules, and Rich has employed many for the telling of the story. These are plot items. They work for the story being told, and may not ever work anywhere else, so what is to say this amulet is not one of them should "character" in the above rule apply to NPC variants and not just PC ones so that Durokon was unable to create an artifact that COULD cast an epic spell?

Is there any evidence that Xykon's crown isn't casting Energy Drain for him? I don't remember him casting it before retrieving it from Roy. (Note: I don't actually want to hear your evidence, I'm just pointing out how dumb this argument is. The point is that there is no evidence that the amulet is casting it for him)

And I don't want to hear/read your snide remarks either. How's them apples? There is no evidence that the amulet/headband is NOT an artifact. There is likewise nothign that states an artifact must be older than X which would mean that with the past 100 years or so when Durokon was alive, one could not have ben created as recently as thus.

Y'nokhs

2009-05-12, 09:25 PM

Player or non-player? Define character. What rules exist in 3.x for the Crimson Mantle? Starmetal and its properties including weapons made form it affecting undead in any manner, weight of it required to make a sword? TeeVo device for recording things on a widescreen scrying crystal? Soul splices?

There is a lot of things that can appear in a campaign that are outside of the rules, and Rich has employed many for the telling of the story. These are plot items. They work for the story being told, and may not ever work anywhere else, so what is to say this amulet is not one of them should "character" in the above rule apply to NPC variants and not just PC ones so that Durokon was unable to create an artifact that COULD cast an epic spell?

That could be true, but it still seems more reasonable to assume Xykon has a feat that his levels would allow than Doukran was powerful enough to create a Major Artifact [EDIT: since you say its not an artifact, then ok, an item as powerful as a Major Artifact] (what was he doing losing to Xykon, then?) The simplest interpretation is often the best: "Cloister is an epic spell that uses the headband as a focus" rather than "Dourkran somehow created an item that violated the laws of magic."

Unless you give me evidence why the former CANNOT be true, I will not accept the latter

shadzar

2009-05-12, 09:39 PM

Unless you give me evidence why the former CANNOT be true, I will not accept the latter

I think therein is the problem many are having. My point was there is no conclusive proof either way, so either possibility is still valid and neither should be discounted until one is proven true. Both re still likely so using the cloister spell and the item the spell takes to cast, does not prove anything about the elvel of a spellcaster.

I present as my evidence to state the item like artifact theory is possible with spelljamming helms for official items, and again the soul splices.

Why could X beat D that was possibly powerful enough to create an artifact? Maybe D had just finished a sojourn with something he teleported into the area of the cloister? I don't know the full details of the fight. Maybe the BBEG cheated?

All I want people to do is not discount something until AFTER it has been proven false, and don't use something as proof that baers no witness to the facts being presented from it.

So far the cloister spell/headband proves nothing about any caster is what it boils down to.

Y'nokhs

2009-05-12, 10:00 PM

I think therein is the problem many are having. My point was there is no conclusive proof either way, so either possibility is still valid and neither should be discounted until one is proven true. Both re still likely so using the cloister spell and the item the spell takes to cast, does not prove anything about the elvel of a spellcaster.

I present as my evidence to state the item like artifact theory is possible with spelljamming helms for official items, and again the soul splices.

Why could X beat D that was possibly powerful enough to create an artifact? Maybe D had just finished a sojourn with something he teleported into the area of the cloister? I don't know the full details of the fight. Maybe the BBEG cheated?

All I want people to do is not discount something until AFTER it has been proven false, and don't use something as proof that baers no witness to the facts being presented from it.

So far the cloister spell/headband proves nothing about any caster is what it boils down to.

I suppose we have different ways of approaching this, then. I agree that both possibilities are valid, but in light of the evidence we have (Celia's statement, epic spell rules, Dourkran's presumed level of power) I find the "spell" theory more likely. Is there conclusive proof for either side? No. But until new evidence or proof changes my perception, I will operate under that assumption that the theory is correct. You may prefer waiting for absolute proof, but I find that when deductive reasoning fails, one must resort to inductive reasoning.

Aaron

2009-05-12, 10:49 PM

Uh...duh?

What I mean is that OOTS world is (as stated by Rich Burlew) in DnD 3.5 edition, not 4.0. Edition 3.5 only uses action points IF you are using them as a Variant Adventuring Rule. Rich Burlew has said that OOTS world dosn't use it.:smallbiggrin:

Tomada

2009-05-12, 10:58 PM

How much XP does defeating a city get him?

Irrelevant. NO single encounter can level you more than ONCE and leave you 1 XP away from the next level.

quick_comment

2009-05-12, 11:23 PM

What I mean is that OOTS world is (as stated by Rich Burlew) in DnD 3.5 edition, not 4.0. Edition 3.5 only uses action points IF you are using them as a Variant Adventuring Rule. Rich Burlew has said that OOTS world dosn't use it.:smallbiggrin:

Eberron has action points

lord_khaine

2009-05-13, 03:28 AM

with an e

2009-05-13, 03:45 AM

Something that doesn't relate to the latest strip, but...
Do strip 107 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0107.html), strip 16 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html), and strip 163 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0163.html) allow us to say something about V's knowledge ranks?

Knowledge skills are trained only. Since V can answer questions about Roy's father's visitation, he must have at least 1 rank in either religion (for undead) or the planes (for outsiders). Since V knows elves are immune to a ghoul's paralysis, he must have either religion or local (humanoid). Since V failed to identify a ghast, he must have no more than 6 ranks in religion. If he has none in religion, then he must have at least 1 in both the planes and local. I believe the fact that he knows about ghosts means he does have 1-6 ranks in religion.

RMS Oceanic

2009-05-13, 03:46 AM

i do think that the sudden Maximize feat is the most consistent explanation for that maximized energy drain we just saw.

alternatively, if we are going with a lose definiton of holding, then Xykon could be hiding a Rod of Maximize in his ribcage.

The problem with Sudden Maximize is that it's not a feat on the SRD, and this thread always looks to explainations that can be found in core until overrulled by the comic itself. That said, we can always change it once we gain new information.

lothos

2009-05-13, 05:04 AM

Ok, so let me cover the apologies first:
1. I haven't read all 29 pages of this thread, so if someone has already posted this before, sorry.
2. I've only ever seen the 3.0 edition of the Epic Level Handbook... I'm told there is no specific 3.5 edition, but if I'm wrong.... sorry.

Ok, that done:

My first thought about maximised energy drain was that it was using a Maximise Rod. Xykon said back in strip 543 that he spends 8 hours a day making magic items. Though sorcerers are short on feats, it's possible he has the craft Rod feat and we know he has the metamagic maximise feat OR already has a maximise rod from strip 459. He uses maximised magic missile against soon. Even if he dosn't have craft Rod, perhaps Redcloak has it and they co-operated on creating a maximised Rod. It avoids needing a 12th level spell slot.

But then I thought, well what would it take to have a 12th level spell slot. Well, the obvious answer and as far as I know, the only one, is to take increased spell capacity 3 times.

So Xykon could have got epic feats at:
L21, L23, L24, L26, L27, L30, L31.... assuming he didn't multiclass and only has sorcerer levels.

He has Epic Spellcasting (Cloister, Strip 484) so if apart from that he ONLY took 3 increased spell capacity epic feats, that makes him L26 or more.

Do I have that right ?

One other thing I've been wondering..... Xykon dosn't seem to have a familiar. Perhaps he is the Metamagic specialist variant sorcerer from PH2 3.5 ? When I first read that, my thoughts were that it was a no-brainer choice for any Sorcerer... I mean quickened spontaneous spells... fantastic :-)

Is there any evidence that he might be a Metamagic specialist Sorcerer, other than the circumstantial lack of seeing a familiar (so far) ?

Cheers.

Wrecan

2009-05-13, 05:46 AM

Dagren

2009-05-13, 06:39 AM

...Since V knows elves are immune to a ghoul's paralysis, he must have either religion or local (humanoid)...Or she could, y'know, be an elf? That's like saying Durkon needs ranks in Knowledge (Humanoids) to know he has a dodge bonus against giants.

Volkov

2009-05-13, 08:00 AM

I think therein is the problem many are having. My point was there is no conclusive proof either way, so either possibility is still valid and neither should be discounted until one is proven true. Both re still likely so using the cloister spell and the item the spell takes to cast, does not prove anything about the elvel of a spellcaster.

I present as my evidence to state the item like artifact theory is possible with spelljamming helms for official items, and again the soul splices.

Why could X beat D that was possibly powerful enough to create an artifact? Maybe D had just finished a sojourn with something he teleported into the area of the cloister? I don't know the full details of the fight. Maybe the BBEG cheated?

All I want people to do is not discount something until AFTER it has been proven false, and don't use something as proof that baers no witness to the facts being presented from it.

So far the cloister spell/headband proves nothing about any caster is what it boils down to.
Ahem takes a deep breath. ONLY GODS WITH THE CRAFT ARTIFACT SALIENT DIVINE ABILITY CAN CREATE ARTIFACTS GENIUS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dagren

2009-05-13, 08:12 AM

And I don't want to hear/read your snide remarks either. How's them apples? There is no evidence that the amulet/headband is NOT an artifact. There is likewise nothign that states an artifact must be older than X which would mean that with the past 100 years or so when Durokon was alive, one could not have ben created as recently as thus.Cute. Still doesn't answer the point, which is that your argument is an obvious burden of proof fallacy.

Kurald Galain

2009-05-13, 08:17 AM

There is a lot of things that can appear in a campaign that are outside of the rules, and Rich has employed many for the telling of the story.
Yes, but then you are completely missing the point of this thead. Unlike most other threads in this forum, which lend themselves very well to Epileptic Trees of the "what if Durkon is actually an elf in disguise?" variety, this thread assumes that the core D&D rules hold true, and extrapolates what the characters' statistics would be based upon that assumption. It also uses non-core rules on occasion where this is explicit in the strip.

So saying "hey, what if Rich wasn't using D&D rules?" is a self-evident truth anywhere else in the forum, and completely irrelevant to the Geekery thread.

Irrelevant. NO single encounter can level you more than ONCE and leave you 1 XP away from the next level.
But it was more than one encounter.

Eberron has action points
But OOTS doesn't play in Eberron.

Volkov

2009-05-13, 08:18 AM

Cute. Still doesn't answer the point, which is that your argument is an obvious burden of proof fallacy.

Ignore him Dagren, he obviously has never read Deities and Demigods, which has the only method of creating even a minor artifact listed. The Create Artifact Divine salient Ability.

Aharon

2009-05-13, 08:36 AM

Concerning the Energy Drain (Crossposted from Why doesn't V shapechange, because it fits here better):

Why are Jephton's epic slots erased? RAW, this would either not happen at all (my favoured interpretation) or we have some information about Jephton's slots - namely, he does have <=6 slots of 11th and 10th level (epic included, assuming Drain affects each caster with half its levels, average roll assumed)

Epic Spell Levels

Epic spells have no fixed level. However, for purposes of Concentration checks, spell resistance, and other possible situations where spell level is important, epic spells are all treated as if they were 10th-level spells.

I think Energy Drain counts as such a situation.

If instead, you want to apply

Epic Spell

Spells that are different from common spells. Epic spells are usually custom-made. Epic spells do not take up normal spell slots, but instead are gained and used under a completely separate progression.
Epic Spell Slots

A character must have an available epic spell slot to prepare or cast an epic spell, just as he or she needs a normal spell slot for a nonepic spell. A character doesn’t gain epic spell slots by virtue of his or her level and class, however. A character gets one epic spell slot for every 10 ranks he or she has in the relevant Knowledge skill.

then it could be argued that Epic spell slots aren't affected by energy drain at all (in fact, that's the ruling I use in my campaign). As they are gained and used under a completely separate progression, energy drain doesn't harm them - the relevant Knowledge Skills don't change, so the number of epic spell slots doesn't change.

But as Jephton's epic spell slots are gone, I assume Rich went with the first interpretation.

shadzar

2009-05-13, 09:12 AM

Ignore him Dagren, he obviously has never read Deities and Demigods, which has the only method of creating even a minor artifact listed. The Create Artifact Divine salient Ability.

Actually I have many times, and my copy includes both Cthulu and Melnibone Mythoi. :smalltongue:

In your infinite wisdom then please tell me how D Soon, or the others were able to even create gates? Soon just shoved a sapphire in front of the tiny opening of the rift he found but Durokan actually made a gate with glyhps that neither Xykon nor Redcloak could remove or use, and likewise a big (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0096.html) honking (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html) GATE they couldn't even touch to open. That gate sure seems like an artifact to me. So far be it from Durokan to be able to create more than one artifact. :smallfurious:

Therefore using the cloister to in any way determine Xykon's abilities is futile since it is completely possible that Durokan could create artifacts.

Heck for all we know the only one able to use the darn cloister could be Durokan himself which Xykon has the answer to that problem already.

o when it is proven that Durokan could not create artifacts, then by all means discount the possibility that cloister is being cast from the headband and not from Xykon himself.

Amon Star

2009-05-13, 09:29 AM

RMS Oceanic

2009-05-13, 09:32 AM

Actually I have many times, and my copy includes both Cthulu and Melnibone Mythoi. :smalltongue:

In your infinite wisdom then please tell me how D Soon, or the others were able to even create gates? Soon just shoved a sapphire in front of the tiny opening of the rift he found but Durokan actually made a gate with glyhps that neither Xykon nor Redcloak could remove or use, and likewise a big (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0096.html) honking (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html) GATE they couldn't even touch to open. That gate sure seems like an artifact to me. So far be it from Durokan to be able to create more than one artifact. :smallfurious:

Therefore using the cloister to in any way determine Xykon's abilities is futile since it is completely possible that Durokan could create artifacts.

Heck for all we know the only one able to use the darn cloister could be Durokan himself which Xykon has the answer to that problem already.

o when it is proven that Durokan could not create artifacts, then by all means discount the possibility that cloister is being cast from the headband and not from Xykon himself.

There is a difference between Artifacts and Epic Magic Items. It's explicitly stated in the DMG that Artifact creation is beyond a mortals grasp.

Aharon

2009-05-13, 09:34 AM

@Amon Star
that's not how energy drain works. Energy drain causes negative levels, which cause the loss of spell slots and other things. You're thinking of level loss, which usually occurs 24 hours after gaining negative levels if you don't make your saves.

shadzar

2009-05-13, 10:01 AM

There is a difference between Artifacts and Epic Magic Items. It's explicitly stated in the DMG that Artifact creation is beyond a mortals grasp.

Where does it state that(bolded)?

Also in the 3.0 Epic Level Handbook it states that an epic magic item (what is the difference in that wordy way of saying artifact and just saying artifact anyway?) it says a magic item is an epic one if:

*Mimics a spell of an effective level higher than 9th.

Dorukan researched the epic spell cloister. Again, call it epic magic item if it makes you feel better; Dorukon could have been high enough level to create an artifact through which to cast this spell once a month or something to free him from having to use his one spell slot for the day.

So the headband still can be the one casting the spell and not Xykon. the command word for it could simply be the name of the spell (cloister), and not knowing the spell would leave it useless. Xykon had all Dorukan's stuff so could have easily learned the name of the spell from his papers, or even from the halfling's diary since the halfling did continue to wander about rather than sit in one place to protect the gate.

RMS Oceanic

2009-05-13, 10:36 AM

shadzar

2009-05-13, 10:52 AM

If we look at the SRD... (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/artifacts.htm)

Artifacts are not necessarily unique items, but rather magic items that no longer can be made by common mortal means—even by the hands of epic creators. Such items have no established market price.

You are insisting that there is no difference between an epic magic item and an artifact, but the rules explicitly state that there is.

I like the part it says there that I bolded myself. I would not consider Dorukan just a common mortal by and standards. It may be hard for them to be made even by common epic creators, but it still doesn't deny they cannot be made when you read the full thing.

We know that Dorukan employed celestial beings for guards of that talisman Nale was after, so what is to say he didn't employ them for other things, or likewise employ other beings to aid him in things?

There is just too many unknowns to say the headband is not an artifact unless it appears in the comic in a not so subtle way beyond what Xykon has already said about it being a "hippie accessory or a material focus for the most powerful abjuration ever".

Xykon is too smart to tell people he has a weakness with protecting against scrying into his domain.

Stormthorn

2009-05-13, 11:25 AM

He's not a rival, he's the BBEG. There is a significant difference.

Which simply makes him a MORE serious threat to the part. He would level up with them but be a higher level as he did so. Rich mentioned in his workshop about villains that his own example leveled up as the heroes did (but at a slower rate since he started at level 12),

Moriarty

2009-05-13, 11:34 AM

Artifacts are not necessarily unique items, but rather magic items that no longer can be made by common mortal means—even by the hands of epic creators. Such items have no established market price.

I like the part it says there that I bolded myself. I would not consider Dorukan just a common mortal by and standards. It may be hard for them to be made even by common epic creators, but it still doesn't deny they cannot be made when you read the full thing.

why shouldn't we consider Durokan a common mortal? the text considers epic casters as common mortals.

youre getting to nitpicky about these texts, would you agree that someone gets the ability to create artifacts because theyre no longer mortal? (lichdom/ghosts/brain in a jar etc)

There is just too many unknowns to say the headband is not an artifact unless it appears in the comic in a not so subtle way beyond what Xykon has already said about it being a "hippie accessory or a material focus for the most powerful abjuration ever".

we also don't know enough about haleys pants, should we consider them artifacts too until proven otherwise? we don't have any reason to assume the headband neets to be an artifact, why should we start listing it as such?

Yendor

2009-05-13, 11:45 AM

Even leaving aside the question of how Dorukan could possibly have an artifact that casts his own spell, why on earth would he want one? It's his spell, and it's one he only needs to cast every six months or so. If he can't spare a single spell slot on something that important, he shouldn't even be bothering.

lord_khaine

2009-05-13, 11:47 AM

The problem with Sudden Maximize is that it's not a feat on the SRD, and this thread always looks to explainations that can be found in core until overrulled by the comic itself. That said, we can always change it once we gain new information.

yes, but if i was less lasy i could drag out several examples of stuff from outside core.
also, i disagree about the core part, this thread has allways focused on finding the most likely explanation.

and back to my argument, since sudden maximise does not conflict with previous extimates of xykons level, then i do belive its a more likely explanation.

with an e

2009-05-13, 12:19 PM

Whether the headband is a minor artifact is irrelevant. SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm#metamagicItemsandEpicSpells) states

A character can’t craft a magic item that casts an epic spell, regardless of whether the item is activated with spell completion, a spell trigger, a command word, or is use-activated. Only major artifacts, which are beyond the means of even epic characters to create, can possibly contain magic of this power.

Aharon

2009-05-14, 09:10 AM

Yendor

2009-05-14, 09:11 AM

A lot from the latest strip!

Tsukiko has the spell Mind Fog.

Xykon has the epic spell Superb Dispelling, the feat Still Spell, and apparently a self-crafted Ring of Energy Immunity (fire), which would require the feats Forge Ring and Forge Epic Ring, and the spell Protection from Energy.

RMS Oceanic

2009-05-14, 09:19 AM

Also, V no longer has the soul splice, and Tsukiko has a Xykon doll.

Volkov

2009-05-14, 09:24 AM

Xykon is also high enough into the epic levels to trounce V in a dispel check.

pnewman

2009-05-14, 09:26 AM

You are insisting that there is no difference between an epic magic item and an artifact, but the rules explicitly state that there is.

The rules state only that artifacts can no longer be made by mortals. They do not state for how long this has been so. Moreover by saying that they 'Can no longer be made by mortals' they also state that once upon a time (i.e under an older rules set) mortals could make artifacts.

Therefore we have no way of knowing that any given artifact was not made by a mortal before it became impossible. Thus Xyklon could have made an artifact before the universes rules updated to 3.0. We saw the update to 3.5 in strip 1. Haley says her Grandfather was a 1st edition thief. Thus we know that the OOTS world has updated its rules in the past.

Trixie

2009-05-14, 09:33 AM

b) Xykon probably has the Sudden Still Spell Feat, normally a Still Spell by a Sorcerer takes a full-round action, which can't be cast in a grapple. This makes it likely that he also has the Sudden Maximize Feat.
c) Tsukiko - as most other casters - is stupid. Mind Fog allows an initial Will Save, which Suvie should still make, even in her weakened form.
d) Xykon spent some of his resources on Superb Dispelling (531,000 gp and 21,240 XP) and a Ring of Energy Immunity (240000 gp or 120000 gp and 4800 XP).

b) I was under the impression that it just takes a full round to cast, yet it is still a normal action;
c) Will save of someone who has 6-8 will save, plus a penalty from splice, plus a -10 mind fog penalty vs DC of ~20? Heh. Easy money :smallamused:
d) He could have found notes on the spell on one of the epic casters he defeated, skipping money and/or XP part. As for the ring - was it total immunity, or something along the lines of Fire Resistance 40? Because if it isn't, Xykon's character level just went one epic feat higher.

Darkhands

2009-05-14, 09:53 AM

OK, the current strip tells us that
a) the Splice levels didn't stack (otherwise the +40 by superb dispelling wouldn't suffice) => Suvie was indeed stupid for using Disjunction
b) Xykon probably has the Sudden Still Spell Feat, normally a Still Spell by a Sorcerer takes a full-round action, which can't be cast in a grapple. This makes it likely that he also has the Sudden Maximize Feat.
c) Tsukiko - as most other casters - is stupid. Mind Fog allows an initial Will Save, which Suvie should still make, even in her weakened form.
d) Xykon spent some of his resources on Superb Dispelling (531,000 gp and 21,240 XP) and a Ring of Energy Immunity (240000 gp or 120000 gp and 4800 XP).
e) Xykon has at least Epic Spellcasting and Forge Epic Ring as Epic Feats.

Did I miss something?

Would deflecting the disintegrate mean he has Exceptional Deflection? Or is there another way/shown before that he has that.

pjackson

2009-05-14, 09:54 AM

What rules exist in 3.x for the Crimson Mantle?

Craft Artifact is a divine salient ability in the core rules.

Starmetal and its properties including weapons made form it affecting undead in any manner, weight of it required to make a sword?

IIRC starmetal appears in the Arms and Equipment Guide, and has the property of bypassing the DR of outsiders, which is probably why Sabine was worried by it.

There is a lot of things that can appear in a campaign that are outside of the rules, and Rich has employed many for the telling of the story.

True, but irrelevant in this thread where the point is to see what we can deduced about the characters but assuming that things follow the rules wherever possible.

These are plot items. They work for the story being told, and may not ever work anywhere else, so what is to say this amulet is not one of them should "character" in the above rule apply to NPC variants and not just PC ones so that Durokon was unable to create an artifact that COULD cast an epic spell?

It would contradict the rule for a non divine being to be able to create an artifact. This thread is built on the assumption that the rules are being followed except when proved otherwise.

There is no evidence that the amulet/headband is NOT an artifact.

There is. It appears to be connected to the epic spell created by Dorukan. According to the rules mortals can not create artifacts. The comic very, very rarely contradicts the rules (even excluding rule zero).

There are alternative explanations that do not contradict any rule.
It could be a magic item that give a bonus to spellcraft checks.
It could be a focus for the cloister spell to reduce the DC.
For the purposes of this thread they are better ones.

Aharon

2009-05-14, 10:04 AM

oh, almost forgot:
f) Xykon is able to beat a DC 59 Spellcraft check, which likely means that he has some spellcraft enhancing item, as well.

@Trixie
b)

Therefore, such a character must also take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than he does to cast a regular spell. If the spell’s normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time.)

nope, it's a full-round action
c) What Splice penalty? Suvie needs all her Willpower to hold it up, it isn't lowered, AFAIK. The -10 from Mind Fog only apply after the initial Will Save. The DC probably won't be too high. Pigtail Chick is a Mystic theurge, so she has to up both INT and WIS. I think it's safe to assume something around DC 19 (DC 10+5(level of Spell)+4(INT)). Suvie's Will Save is 9 (base)+2(elf)(+perhaps 1 WIS), so the spell is less than 50% likely to work, might even be fewer if s/he has an item that heightens her saves. Attacking casters with Will-save-allowing spells is seldomly a good idea.
d) well, I assume Xykon was honest and does have what he says he has. A greater ring of energy resistance would suffice for getting no damage from Meteor Swarm, though (on average).
Concerning the costs: I'm not sure this is possible. As Xykon is a sorcerer, he can't use another spellcasters notes. Might be wrong, though.

@Darkhands
I think it just means the disintegrate didn't pass the deflection bonus to Xykon's AC. Some spells do grant such a bonus. If he had yet another epic feat, I would begin to abandon my hope that the Order could ever defeat him.

pjackson

2009-05-14, 10:07 AM

Would deflecting the disintegrate mean he has Exceptional Deflection? Or is there another way/shown before that he has that.

The minimum explanation is that he has a deflection bonus to AC of at least +1.

Kurald Galain

2009-05-14, 10:07 AM

b) Xykon probably has the Sudden Still Spell Feat, normally a Still Spell by a Sorcerer takes a full-round action, which can't be cast in a grapple. This makes it likely that he also has the Sudden Maximize Feat.
I concur. The alternative is Arcane Preparation, but that's entirely out of character for Xykon.

Did I miss something?
f) Xykon can pass a DC 29 concentration check, in order to cast a 9th-level spell while being grappled. Unsurprisingly, that means he has at least 9 ranks (given his zero constitution bonus) and plausibly a lot more since 9 ranks only give him a 5% chance.

b) I was under the impression that it just takes a full round to cast, yet it is still a normal action;
"Casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer" (from the SRD). Anyway, there is no such thing as "normal actions that take a full round".

c) Will save of someone who has 6-8 will save, plus a penalty from splice, plus a -10 mind fog penalty vs DC of ~20? Heh. Easy money :smallamused:
No, that's the save against mind fog, and you don't get the -10 penalty until you fail that save.

d) He could have found notes on the spell on one of the epic casters he defeated, skipping money and/or XP part.
I suppose, but since we're not tracking GP and XP owned by characters, that's not really relevant. Point is he knows the spell.

As for the ring - was it total immunity,
Yes - Xykon says so. We assume that characters don't lie about their stats (because if we don't assume that, this thread becomes pointless).

with an e

2009-05-14, 10:30 AM

I concur. The alternative is Arcane Preparation, but that's entirely out of character for Xykon.
He can also use Automatic Still Spell, which requires 3 epic feats, the lowest of which requiring a minimum level of 24. This would put a pure class sorcerer at level 27+. If the Maximize Spell is also from metamatic feats rather than an item, then he would be level 30+.

shadzar

2009-05-14, 10:32 AM

That is sitll assuming that OOTS follows all conventional world rules and mechanics. The problem lies in settings creations and what NPCs and other "characters" that are special to a setting such as OOTS can do beyond the standard rules.

Maybe in OOTS artifacts are not such a far gone thing that people can still create them. Or Dorukan has the required feat/ability to create them.

Also as presented we have a dirt farmer that was first level, and he still lives, and we know not when the headband was created, but know that not everyone has been converted to 3.5.

Also as previously mentioned Haley's Grandfather, and I think Horace Greenhilt were 1st edition as well.

So how much time has passed since Xykon took the castle from Dorukan?

The dirt farmer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0218.html) was human. He cannot be more than 80 years old.

Having had to be 16 while human to take classes under 1st level, that would mean less than 64 years have passed from 1st to 3.5 total.

How old was Xykon when he fought Dorukan?

66 years prior (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) to the trial in Azure City Soon lost his wife to the Snarl.

So setting the dirt farmer as 1st edition and less than 80 years old to where he wouldn't be even dirt farming gives us plenty of time for Soon to have made his band of rift seekers within 1st editions time frame.

If not then at least could still be within 2nd editions frame.

This gives plenty of chance either way for Dorukan to have been able to make artifacts.

Off the top of my head, takes preparing the item to receive spells by enchanting it. Putting the spells into it. Then casting permanency on the item.

It takes a lot of work, but under 2nd edition is ift was that recent it could be done to get something with near artifact power that can cast spells itself.

The main thing to figure out is what timeframe of the OOTS-verse did 2nd edition end and 3rd begin to where would not allow Dorukan to create items like this anymore?

How old is Celia? Dorukan already had the headband prior to hiring her did he not?

This places the edition squarely in the timeframe where he COULD in fact have created artifacts while he was alive.

So with people going under the assumption Dorukan was a 3rd edition wizard even, that may fail to be true., which easily allows him to create artifacts.

Thus until proven otherwise and knowing the edition of Dorukan, the headband cannot clearly be defined as a point of data to prove anything about Xykon's level or abilities.

RMS Oceanic

2009-05-14, 10:35 AM

That is sitll assuming that OOTS follows all conventional world rules and mechanics. The problem lies in settings creations and what NPCs and other "characters" that are special to a setting such as OOTS can do beyond the standard rules.

If we take that line of thinking, then there is absolutely no point to this thread at all, because everything we see can just be dismissed with "oh, it's homebrewed". We look for possible explainations within the rules and assume them to be true, until we're proven otherwise.

Volkov

2009-05-14, 10:43 AM

shadzar

2009-05-14, 10:57 AM

If we take that line of thinking, then there is absolutely no point to this thread at all, because everything we see can just be dismissed with "oh, it's homebrewed". We look for possible explainations within the rules and assume them to be true, until we're proven otherwise.

It doesn't have to be homebrewed to not be default core. FR, DragonLance, etc are mainly core, but setting specific as well.

You also forgot to address the other points that prove it very possible for Dorukan to have created artifacts, when everyone here fails to look at the time frame of things.

Correction: The dirt farmer is most likely 2nd edition and not 1st because of the NWPs comment.

In any event it has been less than 66 years since the headband was created.

We know Xykon faced Dorukan after becoming a lich, so after Eugene swore the blood oath to kill Xykon.

So can anyone prove that Dorukan was at least 3rd edition when the headband was created, or that the headband itself is NOT needed for using the cloister spell?

The facts are right there to allow Dorukan to create artifacts, but many just want to overlook them so their version of acceptable reality fits more with what they are comfortable with.

If I am wrong, so be it, but it still seems very likely Dorukan could have made items of near artifact power under another older ruleset.

tyckspoon

2009-05-14, 11:03 AM

f) Xykon can pass a DC 29 concentration check, in order to cast a 9th-level spell while being grappled. Unsurprisingly, that means he has at least 9 ranks (given his zero constitution bonus) and plausibly a lot more since 9 ranks only give him a 5% chance.

Undead use Charisma for Concentration checks. Xykon's minimum Charisma is 19 to cast 9th level spells (or 20 for the sort-of-10th level Epic slots.) His probable Charisma would be in the 30s, but we don't really have proof for an upper bound.. at least, I don't recall any being put forward.

Nerdanel

2009-05-14, 11:54 AM

Volkov

2009-05-14, 11:55 AM

It doesn't have to be homebrewed to not be default core. FR, DragonLance, etc are mainly core, but setting specific as well.

You also forgot to address the other points that prove it very possible for Dorukan to have created artifacts, when everyone here fails to look at the time frame of things.

Correction: The dirt farmer is most likely 2nd edition and not 1st because of the NWPs comment.

In any event it has been less than 66 years since the headband was created.

We know Xykon faced Dorukan after becoming a lich, so after Eugene swore the blood oath to kill Xykon.

So can anyone prove that Dorukan was at least 3rd edition when the headband was created, or that the headband itself is NOT needed for using the cloister spell?

The facts are right there to allow Dorukan to create artifacts, but many just want to overlook them so their version of acceptable reality fits more with what they are comfortable with.

If I am wrong, so be it, but it still seems very likely Dorukan could have made items of near artifact power under another older ruleset.
Allow me to check my old second edition stuff to verify your accuracy, if second edition doesn't allow artifact creation, your screwed.

tyckspoon

2009-05-14, 12:19 PM

Allow me to check my old second edition stuff to verify your accuracy, if second edition doesn't allow artifact creation, your screwed.

It doesn't, to the best of my recollection. All the artifacts in 2nd Ed were the results of the works of gods/old dead people doing momentous things, just like they are in 3E. And if it was a mortal doing it, it usually ended up killing them (and thereby empowering the artifact with their soul's energy.)

Not to mention the absurdity of arguing that a 2nd Edition artifact would cast a 3rd Edition Epic Spell.

Porthos

2009-05-14, 01:03 PM

Whoa, I just noticed that Xykon must be at least level 32! :smalleek:

The prerequisites for the Forge Epic Ring epic feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#forgeEpicRing): Forge Ring, Knowledge (arcana) 35 ranks, Spellcraft 35 ranks.

Xykon must have been really leveling up a lot lately. He's some ten levels or more above the old estimate.

That seems way too excessive. :smalleek: It's been a long time since I looked extensively at the Magic Item Creation rules, but is it possible for Xykon to have Skill Boosting items? I know that there are magic items that can boost spellcraft, but what about the various knowledge skills?

And if so, could they be worn while crafting an Epic Ring. Or is this expressly disallowed somewhere?

Just throwing the idea out there.

EDIT:: Don't have time to really think this trough (or double check the rules) as I am running out the door, but wouldn't a positive INT bonus (or any other source of a bonus) also help alievate the need for Xykon to be lvl 32? Or do the item creation rules only depend on base rank (as I said, it's been forever since I checked)?

Volkov

2009-05-14, 01:21 PM

It doesn't, to the best of my recollection. All the artifacts in 2nd Ed were the results of the works of gods/old dead people doing momentous things, just like they are in 3E. And if it was a mortal doing it, it usually ended up killing them (and thereby empowering the artifact with their soul's energy.)

Not to mention the absurdity of arguing that a 2nd Edition artifact would cast a 3rd Edition Epic Spell.

Ah good, thus we can fairly say that shadzar is beaten. And Porthos, why is it so hard for you people to believe that Xykon is fairly well into the epic-level progression?

RMS Oceanic

2009-05-14, 01:25 PM

Ah good, thus we can fairly say that shadzar is beaten. And Porthos, why is it so hard for you people to believe that Xykon is fairly well into the epic-level progression?

One realistic potential plot hole is that Durkon was able to dispel Xykon's invisibility, with a caster level no greater than 14 at the time, meaning Xykon couldn't have been higher than level 23 at the time if the rules were being followed correctly, as the dispel DC couldn't be higher than 34 for Durkon to beat it. Consequently, gaining at least 9 levels in just under a year, especially at epic levels, seems excessive.

Unless you choose to ignore the GDM flub up and accept it as part of the story, like I do.

Volkov

2009-05-14, 01:28 PM

One realistic potential plot hole is that Durkon was able to dispel Xykon's invisibility, with a caster level no greater than 14 at the time, meaning Xykon couldn't have been higher than level 23 at the time if the rules were being followed correctly, as the dispel DC couldn't be higher than 34 for Durkon to beat it. Consequently, gaining at least 9 levels in just under a year, especially at epic levels, seems excessive.

Unless you choose to ignore the GDM flub up and accept it as part of the story, like I do.

It could have just been a scroll, I don't think Xykon would bother learning the spell. Scrolls always function at the minimum caster level required for the highest level spell in there.

Dark Matter

2009-05-14, 01:31 PM

OK, the current strip tells us that
a) the Splice levels didn't stack (otherwise the +40 by superb dispelling wouldn't suffice)The math doesn't quite support this I think.

Assume X's level is 30, Superb Dispelling adds +40, he takes 10 so that's 80.
Assume V's level is 15 & the two contractors are both 30. X still wins.

Much more disturbingly, Xykon can *CAST* Superb Dispelling. It's got a Spell Craft DC of 59.

He takes 10, assume he has a Spell Craft skill focus (+3), +3 more than his level, +2 synergy from Knowledge... assume he's got the Magical Aptitude feat (+2)
...his level is 39+?

Are there other ways to pump your SpellCraft? I find it hard to believe he's got an Int bonus.

Nerdanel

2009-05-14, 01:44 PM

That seems way too excessive. :smalleek: It's been a long time since I looked extensively at the Magic Item Creation rules, but is it possible for Xykon to have Skill Boosting items? I know that there are magic items that can boost spellcraft, but what about the various knowledge skills?

And if so, could they be worn while crafting an Epic Ring. Or is this expressly disallowed somewhere?

Just throwing the idea out there.

EDIT:: Don't have time to really think this trough (or double check the rules) as I am running out the door, but wouldn't a positive INT bonus (or any other source of a bonus) also help alievate the need for Xykon to be lvl 32? Or do the item creation rules only depend on base rank (as I said, it's been forever since I checked)?

It's all about the base ranks. Not even item familiars can bypass the fact that skills can only have at maximum level + 3 ranks. (I got called on that mistake earlier.) So if you believe Xykon that he crafted himself an item of fire immunity, he needs to meet all the prerequirements of the feat, in addition to which an epic feat by itself will raise Xykon's minimum level.

The SRD doesn't have any other magic items than epic rings with the capability to provide energy immunity. If Xykon made armor or wondrous item of fire immunity, he could get by with a lower level requirement, but unless someone can point to that kind of thing in some sourcebook, we're going to have to assume it's a ring with all that implies.

By the way, I also think Xykon has some item that gives deflection bonus to AC. Effects to the tune of spell turning would have turned the disintegrate back to Vaarsuvius, and I think the unsound effect is a clue. (Epic) Mage Armor type of effects wouldn't have worked, since they give straight armor bonus, which V can ignore with his ranged touch attack.

Porthos

2009-05-14, 02:45 PM

It's all about the base ranks.

You're absoultely right. :smallredface: I was thinking (I think) about the requirements to make a specific item, not to take the feat itself.

In my defense, I had just woken up and was highly distracted. About five minutes after I left the house, I realized my silly mistake. Still, I should have known better and not made such a n00b comment.

Anyway, lvl 32 just sounds wrong. So I'm partial to your other ideas. But untill we see more evidence one way or the other, I suppose we really don't know for sure what level he is.

Kornaki

2009-05-14, 03:25 PM

The math doesn't quite support this I think.

Assume X's level is 30, Superb Dispelling adds +40, he takes 10 so that's 80.
Assume V's level is 15 & the two contractors are both 30. X still wins.

Much more disturbingly, Xykon can *CAST* Superb Dispelling. It's got a Spell Craft DC of 59.

He takes 10, assume he has a Spell Craft skill focus (+3), +3 more than his level, +2 synergy from Knowledge... assume he's got the Magical Aptitude feat (+2)
...his level is 39+?

Are there other ways to pump your SpellCraft? I find it hard to believe he's got an Int bonus.

There's an epic item like rod of epic spellcasting that gives you +20 to your spellcraft check for casting epic spells. Alternatively, he could be rolling and need to get a 20 to pull it off (unlikely, but potentially needs a 12 or 13 and would still keep the spell around). That takes a couple levels off.

I find it hard to believe xykon could be level 39 and not instantly succeed at this stuff

Simanos

2009-05-14, 03:36 PM

The math doesn't quite support this I think.

Assume X's level is 30, Superb Dispelling adds +40, he takes 10 so that's 80.
Assume V's level is 15 & the two contractors are both 30. X still wins.

Much more disturbingly, Xykon can *CAST* Superb Dispelling. It's got a Spell Craft DC of 59.

He takes 10, assume he has a Spell Craft skill focus (+3), +3 more than his level, +2 synergy from Knowledge... assume he's got the Magical Aptitude feat (+2)
...his level is 39+?

Are there other ways to pump your SpellCraft? I find it hard to believe he's got an Int bonus.
+40 is the max, not added to your caster level. A level 60 caster would still only get 1d20+40 not 1d20+60 or whatever.

Claudius Maximus

2009-05-14, 04:25 PM

There's a nonepic ring in Sandstorm that gives the fire subtype. This would give Xykon fire immunity without the need for an epic magic item.

Kurald Galain

2009-05-14, 04:41 PM

It could have just been a scroll, I don't think Xykon would bother learning the spell.
He would. He uses invisibility in Start of Darkness, too. On the contrary, Xykon is not the type to bother reading scrolls.

I think level 32 for a magic ring is too much. There exist other ways of obtaining immunity to meteor swarm which are more plausible than Xykon being level 32 now. For instance, there's feycraft red dragonskin armor, or a use-activated item of Protection from Energy.

The most plausible answer is that Xykon wears a non-epic Greater Ring of Fire Resistance. This stops 30 points of damage per sphere, Meteor Swarm is quite explicit on that. Each sphere deals 21 points of damage on average.

Kurald Galain

2009-05-14, 04:44 PM

Undead use Charisma for Concentration checks. Xykon's minimum Charisma is 19 to cast 9th level spells (or 20 for the sort-of-10th level Epic slots.) His probable Charisma would be in the 30s, but we don't really have proof for an upper bound.. at least, I don't recall any being put forward.

Good point, but based on that Occam's Razor still says he has ranks in concentration. If he either has at least one rank in concentration and a charisma of 20+, or no ranks and a charisma of 30+, then the former is much more probable.

lord_khaine

2009-05-14, 04:57 PM

i agree on this, simplest explanation is that he has a greater ring of fire resistance.

also, it seems he has a deflection bonus, i find it most likely thats from a ring of protection.

Trixie

2009-05-14, 05:22 PM

So can anyone prove that Dorukan was at least 3rd edition when the headband was created, or that the headband itself is NOT needed for using the cloister spell?

Um, you're wrong. Xykon was a straight Sorcerer from the beginning, which means (unless he is from a computer game) that he was at least 3.0 all along, from the moment of his birth. So was Dorukan and Eugene, then, unless Xykon won by attacking their nonexistent will save, just like Durkon & Hilga did :smallbiggrin:

There goes your artifact thinking :smalltongue:

baerdith

2009-05-14, 07:19 PM

OK, the current strip tells us that
a) the Splice levels didn't stack (otherwise the +40 by superb dispelling wouldn't suffice) => Suvie was indeed stupid for using Disjunction
b) Xykon probably has the Sudden Still Spell Feat, normally a Still Spell by a Sorcerer takes a full-round action, which can't be cast in a grapple. This makes it likely that he also has the Sudden Maximize Feat.
c) Tsukiko - as most other casters - is stupid. Mind Fog allows an initial Will Save, which Suvie should still make, even in her weakened form.
d) Xykon spent some of his resources on Superb Dispelling (531,000 gp and 21,240 XP) and a Ring of Energy Immunity (240000 gp or 120000 gp and 4800 XP).
e) Xykon has at least Epic Spellcasting and Forge Epic Ring as Epic Feats.

Did I miss something?

F. Drop the Cloister was cast from a magic item debate.

Superb Dispelling is PROOF that Xykon has Epic Spellcasting.
And the DC 59 for SD says that either X has Spellcraft enhancers or is EVEN HIGHER.
Max without enhancers would be 52 (+5 for spec and chr level +3) So he is 52 level or has a an enhancer.
Best guess the crown is an enhancer as is the headband, with each providing +12 - +15.

JeptCloak

2009-05-14, 07:38 PM

OK, the current strip tells us that
a) the Splice levels didn't stack (otherwise the +40 by superb dispelling wouldn't suffice) => Suvie was indeed stupid for using Disjunction
b) Xykon probably has the Sudden Still Spell Feat, normally a Still Spell by a Sorcerer takes a full-round action, which can't be cast in a grapple. This makes it likely that he also has the Sudden Maximize Feat.
c) Tsukiko - as most other casters - is stupid. Mind Fog allows an initial Will Save, which Suvie should still make, even in her weakened form.
d) Xykon spent some of his resources on Superb Dispelling (531,000 gp and 21,240 XP) and a Ring of Energy Immunity (240000 gp or 120000 gp and 4800 XP).
e) Xykon has at least Epic Spellcasting and Forge Epic Ring as Epic Feats.

Did I miss something?

I think disjunction is being passed off as "Haerta was so ludicrously powerful that it was a good bet".

baerdith

2009-05-14, 07:46 PM

One realistic potential plot hole is that Durkon was able to dispel Xykon's invisibility, with a caster level no greater than 14 at the time, meaning Xykon couldn't have been higher than level 23 at the time if the rules were being followed correctly, as the dispel DC couldn't be higher than 34 for Durkon to beat it. Consequently, gaining at least 9 levels in just under a year, especially at epic levels, seems excessive.

Unless you choose to ignore the GDM flub up and accept it as part of the story, like I do.

Or, Xykon used someone else to cast the invisibility for him? He is a Sorc, and he IS limited in what he can personally know.....

Dark Matter

2009-05-14, 08:11 PM

+40 is the max, not added to your caster level. A level 60 caster would still only get 1d20+40 not 1d20+60 or whatever.Whoops. My bad. And you're right, that means the levels didn't stack on the splice.

There's an epic item like rod of epic spellcasting that gives you +20 to your spellcraft check for casting epic spells. Alternatively, he could be rolling and need to get a 20 to pull it off (unlikely, but potentially needs a 12 or 13 and would still keep the spell around). That takes a couple levels off.

I find it hard to believe xykon could be level 39 and not instantly succeed at this stuffThat was with taking 10 and no ability modifier.

In theory he picked up +5 int from being so old and becoming a Litch, so he could have a +2 and if he rolled a 20 then that drops his required level to 27.

We may be up against a house rule here. It's VERY odd epic level Sorcery uses his Int modifier and not his Chr modifier to cast spells. If he uses his Chr modifier then he probably has an extra 10, so he could take 10 and still have a high enough DC.

Similarly if Durkon was able to add his Wis mod to his Greater Dispel Magic roll, then Xykon's max level becomes something like 27.

Y'nokhs

2009-05-14, 08:29 PM

I think disjunction is being passed off as "Haerta was so ludicrously powerful that it was a good bet".

It could be that disjunction was V's best option - to my knowledge, the only other thing that can break an antimagic field is an epic spell, and even that doesn't destroy the field, it just isn't affected by it (thus making V vulnerable to the dragon swooping in close), plus we don't know the souls have any straight-up offensive epic spells

Nerdanel

2009-05-14, 08:51 PM

:xykon: Incidentally, here's a pro tip for you: If you're going to use area effect spells, craft yourself a magic item that makes you immune to that type of damage.

Note: immune. Not highly resistant.

As far as spellcraft goes, some sample calculations:

Ranks: 35
Knowledge (arcana) synergy: +2
Skill focus (spellcraft): +3
Epic Skill Focus (spellcraft): +10
Item of spellcraft: +10
Total: +60, making a DC 59 check a piece of cake.
(Oh, and there's the int bonus, which Xykon very likely has, even if it's not very high in comparison to, say, V's.)

Note that this doesn't reveal what Xykon actually has, but suggests that an Epic Skill Focus feat and an item are both highly likely.

JeptCloak

2009-05-14, 09:09 PM

It could be that disjunction was V's best option - to my knowledge, the only other thing that can break an antimagic field is an epic spell, and even that doesn't destroy the field, it just isn't affected by it (thus making V vulnerable to the dragon swooping in close), plus we don't know the souls have any straight-up offensive epic spells

If Haerta isn't at a certain level, there are other options for V to use. Not least of which would be to Epic Teleport the Dragon into solid rock or something, or teleport the dragon into the Sun, or if that is too far then some other well known feature of the OOTS world which would kill or contain the ABD. I just think the easiest explanation in this case is also the best one, namely Haerta was powerful enough for it to be plausible. For all we know Haerta had some way of boosting the spell's effectiveness, but I don't know enough about D&D rules to know how she'd do that.

Dark Matter

2009-05-14, 09:43 PM

If Haerta isn't at a certain level, there are other options for V to use. Not least of which would be to Epic Teleport the Dragon into solid rock or something, or teleport the dragon into the Sun, or if that is too far then some other well known feature of the OOTS world which would kill or contain the ABD.I'm not sure if you can kill someone via teleportation.
Nor am I sure how you "contain" an ABD who can cast teleport and who is already intending to plane shift.

I just think the easiest explanation in this case is also the best one, namely Haerta was powerful enough for it to be plausible."Plausible" depends on a lot. Other viable options for one. Further, assume she was 35th level, if she'd prepared that spell 4 times then her odds of it working are pretty good. If we want to be absurd we could have her prepare it 10 times since these guys have 10th level slots.

JeptCloak

2009-05-14, 10:44 PM

Y'nokhs

2009-05-14, 11:10 PM

There's probably some famous unescapable magic prison somewhere, or somewhere that burns with the fires of a thousand suns, or whatever. Since the dragon doesn't have Epic magic, it's fairly straightforward for someone versed in magic. Somewhere is a magical prison that only epic magic can get into no doubt. Example: "epic teleport into the rift in Azure City", etc. Epic Teleport the dragons head off. Whatever. It's an Epic spell, and seems unbound by standard rules.

The way we've seen Epic Teleport work so far is just like Greater Teleport except carrying along large amounts of unwilling targets and nonliving matter. Anywhere you teleport something, you too must teleport. And no, you can't selectively target parts of a creatures body, that would be ridiculous, as the transport seed can affect two things - targets and nonliving matter, not living matter that is not a distinct target. Nor is it plane shift, so unless you can find somewhere like the "inescapable magic prison" on the material plane, no dice. The spell you're describing here would be the most powerful one in existence. Two armies fighting? Epic Teleport all the opposing troops - and only the opposing troops - into the heart of the sun. Gods getting on your nerves? Epic Teleport them into the Snarl's rift. I guess then Ganoron might be almost as powerful as you hoped

JeptCloak

2009-05-14, 11:36 PM

The way we've seen Epic Teleport work so far is just like Greater Teleport except carrying along large amounts of unwilling targets and nonliving matter. Anywhere you teleport something, you too must teleport. And no, you can't selectively target parts of a creatures body, that would be ridiculous, as the transport seed can affect two things - targets and nonliving matter, not living matter that is not a distinct target. Nor is it plane shift, so unless you can find somewhere like the "inescapable magic prison" on the material plane, no dice. The spell you're describing here would be the most powerful one in existence. Two armies fighting? Epic Teleport all the opposing troops - and only the opposing troops - into the heart of the sun. Gods getting on your nerves? Epic Teleport them into the Snarl's rift. I guess then Ganoron might be almost as powerful as you hoped

Well, you need to go too, yes, but Epic Teleport seems to allow you some flexibility as to where things are teleported. After all, the other objects are not all teleported to the exact same location as you. So, just teleport yourself and the dragon to the rift so you are 20 feet away from the rift, and the dragon by retaining their default position is in the rift. End fight.

And by the way, could you explain to me why Ganeron couldn't teleport the whole army 1000 feet in the air, then cast fly (assuming he hadn't already) and then watch them all die?

with an e

2009-05-14, 11:45 PM

The way we've seen Epic Teleport work so far is just like Greater Teleport except carrying along large amounts of unwilling targets and nonliving matter. Anywhere you teleport something, you too must teleport. And no, you can't selectively target parts of a creatures body, that would be ridiculous, as the transport seed can affect two things - targets and nonliving matter, not living matter that is not a distinct target. Nor is it plane shift, so unless you can find somewhere like the "inescapable magic prison" on the material plane, no dice. The spell you're describing here would be the most powerful one in existence. Two armies fighting? Epic Teleport all the opposing troops - and only the opposing troops - into the heart of the sun. Gods getting on your nerves? Epic Teleport them into the Snarl's rift. I guess then Ganoron might be almost as powerful as you hoped
Look at the transport seed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/transport.htm) and epic spell development factors.

1. "For interplanar travel, increase the Spellcraft DC by +4." Yes, transport can be used to travel to another plane. Even if the SRD one cannot, Ganonron is clearly stated to have teleported vast armies across planes.
2. "For a spell intended to transport unwilling creatures, increase the Spellcraft DC by +4." Yes, transport can be used to teleport unwilling creatures.

You can use dimensional anchor to prevent yourself from being transported to a particular destination.

shadzar

2009-05-15, 12:12 AM

Allow me to check my old second edition stuff to verify your accuracy, if second edition doesn't allow artifact creation, your screwed.

Chapter 10: Treasure and Magical Items, DMG, revised 2nd edition, Creating Other Magical Items

Um, you're wrong. Xykon was a straight Sorcerer from the beginning, which means (unless he is from a computer game) that he was at least 3.0 all along, from the moment of his birth. So was Dorukan and Eugene, then, unless Xykon won by attacking their nonexistent will save, just like Durkon & Hilga did :smallbiggrin:

There goes your artifact thinking :smalltongue:

I submit the CWH wherein a wizard kit was Amazon Sorceress. This means that the name of a magic-user (MU) was mostly that of fluff with the exception of Illusionist that for a time was a separate class. Thereby a MU could call himself a wizard, sorcerer, etc to his hearts desire prior to an actual class was created with that name and having its own special abilities and pre-requisites.

I recall several modules from 1st edition even naming people (remember naming level where you get a suffix or prefix to your name "Bob" a simple fighter became "Sir Bob the Great, Knight of Whateveristan") as sorcerer while there was not a specific class. The society they came from just called them sorcerer rather than wizard, so the terms were interchangeable while the rules remained the same under older editions.

So that blows up your theory. :smalltongue:

Again, none of this means that Xykon is not some epic level or was not converted to 3.5, but just that the headband used to/when casting cloister proves nothing of his level or abilities.

Porthos

2009-05-15, 12:55 AM

Actually, what almost certainly happened is sometime after the Dirt Farmer scene, but before the Crayons of Time scene, Rich decided to nuke the whole Teh Past Equals Previous Editions thing.

Note Kragar being a Dwarven Barbarian and Siri thinking of becoming a Paladin. Also note in SoD...

That Teenaged Xykon notes that Professor X's Reflex save can't be all that great due to the fact that he is in a wheelchair.

Yeah, if one squints hard enuf, it can all probably be reconciled. But unless Rich starts puting Previous Edition stuff back in the comic again (which he might very well do, if only to mess with our heads) then I don't think we can use the Second Edition stuff as gospel. :smallwink:

Mind you, I'm not enterting an opinion on whether or not a mortal can ever create an artifact or not. But I would say that if they could it would be A) Exceedingly exceedingly exceedingly rare (1 in a trillion rare) and B) Not subject to Game Rules, but to DM Disrection.

I.e. something that NPCs did after lots and lots and lots and .... <insert as many lots as one wants> and lots of trials and tribulations. But it is not, under any circumstances, something that someone could just whip out coz they felt like it.

Or to put it another way: Presume something seen in the comic ISN'T an artifact, unless explictily told otherwise. :smallwink:

RMS Oceanic

2009-05-15, 01:03 AM

I submit the CWH wherein a wizard kit was Amazon Sorceress. This means that the name of a magic-user (MU) was mostly that of fluff with the exception of Illusionist that for a time was a separate class. Thereby a MU could call himself a wizard, sorcerer, etc to his hearts desire prior to an actual class was created with that name and having its own special abilities and pre-requisites.

I recall several modules from 1st edition even naming people (remember naming level where you get a suffix or prefix to your name "Bob" a simple fighter became "Sir Bob the Great, Knight of Whateveristan") as sorcerer while there was not a specific class. The society they came from just called them sorcerer rather than wizard, so the terms were interchangeable while the rules remained the same under older editions.

So that blows up your theory. :smalltongue:

Again, none of this means that Xykon is not some epic level or was not converted to 3.5, but just that the headband used to/when casting cloister proves nothing of his level or abilities.

I submit that you're trying far too hard to fit a square peg into an oval hole. You've made the assumption that the headband grants Xykon the ability to cast Cloister, when there is no evidence that this is the case. It might be an arcane focus, or an epic spellcraft bonus granter. We follow Occam's Razor around here, and it's much more reasonable to assume Xykon just knows the spell, rather than Dorukan had an artifact that replicated an epic spell.

As for your stuff about the world existing to 1st edition rules, I submit that the line was part of a joke. Read Start of Darkness, and you'll see that 3.X rules existed long before Haley's father was born (Sorcerors and Prestige classes were both 3rd Edition innovations).

And for the world-specific rules, we have no evidence of any such rules that is relevant in this particular debate, and like I said before, saying there might be such a rule eliminates the point of this thread.

shadzar

2009-05-15, 01:17 AM

Also note in SoD...

That Teenaged Xykon notes that Professor X's Reflex save can't be all that great due to the fact that he is in a wheelchair.

Yeah, if one squints hard enuf, it can all probably be reconciled. But unless Rich starts puting Previous Edition stuff back in the comic again (which he might very well do, if only to mess with our heads) then I don't think we can use the Second Edition stuff as gospel. :smallwink:

So the stick-verse was retconned to always be 3.0 at least and any previous mention of previous editions are lost? Or just existing persons in the stick-verse use 3.5 now and previously existing person that are only mentioned about could have been anything prior to SoD? So that would mean MitD would have to be a 3.0 monster?

Nobody had pointed out yet about SoD having that, and I have not the book. (I cannot even find "green stuff" to buy anywhere, that is how crappy the area I live in is.)

So that tidbit, and when SoD came out could very well answer that all things now are 3.5.

With only the online version of the comic, though there are those missing thing that you don't have to go on. :smallfrown:

Read Start of Darkness

Buy the #@$^%$& thing and mail it to me, since I have no #$^$^&^%%*$ way otherwise to get it. EVery where people have internet access does not mean they live in a RPG thriving community filled with weekly conventions and gobs of stores for this type of material on every block.

:furious:

Porthos

2009-05-15, 01:24 AM

So the stick-verse was retconned to always be 3.0 at least and any previous mention of previous editions are lost? Or just existing persons in the stick-verse use 3.5 now and previously existing person that are only mentioned about could have been anything prior to SoD? So that would mean MitD would have to be a 3.0 monster?

Pretty much the first, I'd say. Everything before Strip 1 is now 3.0 and everything afterwards is 3.5

Case in point:

In SoD they show that very shortly after the gods created World 2.0 they discussed whether or not hobgoblins should have Level Adjustments.

With only the online version of the comic, though there are those missing thing that you don't have to go on. :smallfrown:

I really wouldn't worry about it too much. :smallsmile: The comic is written so that everything you need to know is presented in-comic. If Rich thinks a reader needs to know something from one of the two "prequel" books, then he'll actually incorperate it/mention it in the comic proper.

Mind you, you really should try to get SoD. It's utterly fantastic and easily the best work that Rich has ever done. But that's neither here nor there for this discussion. :smallwink:

EDIT::

Buy the #@$^%$& thing and mail it to me, since I have no #$^$^&^%%*$ way otherwise to get it. EVery where people have internet access does not mean they live in a RPG thriving community filled with weekly conventions and gobs of stores for this type of material on every block.

Dude, no need to swear at people. He wasn't trying to be mean to you or anything. OK, so you can't easily get ahold of the book, that's understandable. But if you want a piece of friendly advice, there's always things like Pre-Paid Credit/Debit/Gift Cards.

Simply set aside a small amount of money every month (even a couple of bucks) in some jar somewhere, and when you have enough money go out and get a gift card and order the thing online. I'm pretty sure that almost all countries have some sort of Gift Card thing going on. And even if it takes you a while, it really would be worth it.

As I said, just some friendly advice. :smallsmile:

shadzar

2009-05-15, 01:38 AM

Pretty much the first, I'd say. Everything before Strip 1 is now 3.0 and everything afterwards is 3.5

Case in point:

In SoD they show that very shortly after the gods created World 2.0 they discussed whether or not hobgoblins should have Level Adjustments.

I really wouldn't worry about it too much. :smallsmile: The comic is written so that everything you need to know is presented in-comic. If Rich thinks a reader needs to know something from one of the two "prequel" books, then he'll actually incorperate it/mention it in the comic proper.

Mind you, you really should try to get SoD. It's utterly fantastic and easily the best work that Rich has ever done. But that's neither here nor there for this discussion. :smallwink:

EDIT::

Dude, no need to swear at people. He wasn't trying to be mean to you or anything. OK, so you can't easily get ahold of the book, that's understandable. But if you want a piece of friendly advice, there's always things like Pre-Paid Credit/Debit/Gift Cards.

Simply set aside a small amount of money every month (even a couple of bucks) in some jar somewhere, and when you have enough money go out and get a gift card and order the thing online. I'm pretty sure that almost all countries have some sort of Gift Card thing going on. And even if it takes you a while, it really would be worth it.

As I said, just some friendly advice. :smallsmile:

Yeah like Bozzak, Hank and Crystal did while reading Origin to Grubby Wormdingler, or whatever his name was that turned Roy into a Bone Golem.

:crystal: Who would want to see Haley in the shower anyway?

I got enough to buy all the books right now in cash, just haven't been able to find anywhere/way to get them. :smallfrown: Just so frustrating everyone thinking all people have the same advantages and neglect not everyone is living on easy street.

Porthos

2009-05-15, 02:01 AM

I got enough to buy all the books right now in cash, just haven't been able to find anywhere/way to get them. :smallfrown:

I don't want to derail this thread, so I'll just post this once. :smallsmile: What country do you live in (or if you live in the US, what part of the US do you live in)? Any access to any supermarkets, drugstores and/or banks? If so, then you can get a VISA/Mastercard Gift Card. Simply go and get a card in the amount of money that you want (or get a preset one, say $50) and then order the prequel books online at Paizo (http://paizo.com/), APE Games (http://www.apegames.com/), or anyone of the other Online Stores out there.

Maybe we can take this to PM, so I can help ya out. Really, it's not that hard to get temporary credit/debit/gift cards. In fact, due to the whole issue of Identity Theft, I pretty much use Gift Cards exclusively on the net nowadays. The way I figure it, if someone swipes my credit card info, I'll only be out a few bucks, and they'll be stuck with a worthless card number.

Win-win situation there. :smallbiggrin:

Anyway sorry 'bout the digression folks. :smallsmile:

Aharon

2009-05-15, 04:48 AM

I don't know how close to the written items we want to stay...
There is, for example, no spellcraft-enhancing item in core.
So we can also assume that Xykon didn't forge a ring of fire immunity, but created a wondrous air refreshener of fire immunity or something. Then, he would only need Craft Epic Wondrous Item, for which level 23 would be sufficient.

Assuming he also has a spellcraft-enhancing item +30 (costing ca. 90000 gp, and being non-epic), he could succeed casting the Superb dispelling while being in the mid-twenties range.

So if we also assume that Haerta was around level 45, Suvie succeeded in a gamble with the Disjunction, and Xykon rolled high on his dispel check, we wouldn't have to adjust our estimation so much - Xykon being around level 26 is still enough for what he did.

pjackson

2009-05-15, 05:36 AM

I don't know how close to the written items we want to stay...
There is, for example, no spellcraft-enhancing item in core.

But there are guidelines for creating new items, including skill boosting ones.
Of course as DM I would increase the price for a +spellcraft item compared to the guideline.

TheFallenOne

2009-05-15, 05:54 AM

V has Overland Flight(or another way to extend duration of flying)

V was flying in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html
V now still is flying and hasn't cast another Fly spell. According to http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html 19 minutes have passed, exceeding the 1 minute/level duration of Fly

Xykons Strength

Xykons ability to hit V with that big stone in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html could give us a hint at his minimum strength. Even at a low estimate for the weight of the rock this should exceed his current estimate of strength 14+

Also, his comment in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html strongly suggests that he takes it as a given any arcane caster maxes concentration

Deliverance

2009-05-15, 07:34 AM

A question for the rules lawyers here from one inexperienced with epic Sorcerer spellcasting.

* To know an epic spell itself I would assume would require available spell knowledge - easy for a wizard with unlimited spell knowledge possibilities - but hard for a sorcerer with an extremely limited number of spells known per level. If there's no restriction on number, it would seem a bit silly that an Epic sorcerer would have as many epic spells known as he spent money, time, and xp on, while still being limited to a bare handful of highlevel non-epic known spells. Which is the case - does it require a Spell Knowledge feat to learn an epic spell or not?

* To develop an epic spell requires knowledge of the epic seeds(s) involved, right? Does that knowledge itself count as a spell (i.e. requires to be known as a spell is known), in which case, how does an epic sorcerer gain that knowledge without the use of an Spell Knowledge feat? Or is it counted as some sort of knowledge that does not come under the normal spell rules?

In other words, we just saw Xykon cast Superb Dispelling. Just how many Epic Feats must he have spent to be able to do that (0-2)? [Over and above Epic Spellcasting, of course]

I began wondering because with the last few days of speculation in this thread (and others), it seems to me that people are reaching really high numbers of epic feats if we accept the majority of those selected, which we probably should not.

Amon Star

2009-05-15, 07:43 AM

Just some quick observations on Soul Spices. The fact that Ganonon said he didn't have any Time Stops left means the abilities aren't melded it some form of super conglomerate, otherwise :vaarsuvius: simple could have used Japheth's spontaneity to cast it anyway. It appears each caster simply uses their own abilities, unmodified, at the behest of the host. This is hardly the ultimate arcane power that was advertised, but perhaps as close as anyone can get.

All I bit late now, but whatever.
@Amon Star
that's not how energy drain works. Energy drain causes negative levels, which cause the loss of spell slots and other things. You're thinking of level loss, which usually occurs 24 hours after gaining negative levels if you don't make your saves.

Good point. It's been a while sinse I played so it that slipped my mind.
V has Overland Flight(or another way to extend duration of flying)

V was flying in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html
V now still is flying and hasn't cast another Fly spell. According to http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html 19 minutes have passed, exceeding the 1 minute/level duration of Fly

The spell could have been one of the Splices', though I admit it's likely V has it anyway.

Nerdanel

2009-05-15, 07:48 AM

Wizards and sorcerers use the exact same mechanics for epic spells. No feats are required for learning new epic spells, only time, XP, and money (or a stone tablet with an epic spell inscribed on it, if you're really lucky, in which case someone else already paid the costs for you). Epic spells are expensive.

Improved Spell Capacity is a different thing altogether. It gives non-epic spell slots for spell levels 10 and up. A maximized Energy Drain is a level 12 non-epic spell.

Dark Matter

2009-05-15, 07:51 AM

In other words, we just saw Xykon cast Superb Dispelling. Just how many Epic Feats must he have spent to be able to do that (0-2)? [Over and above Epic Spellcasting, of course]I don't count myself as "experienced" but my read on the rules is he needed Epic Spellcasting and that's it.

Superb Dispelling is a "normal" (i.e. book listed) Epic spell. All you need to get it is spend the listed resources. http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicSpells.htm

EDIT: And you have to be able to actually use the seeds in question, that's another reason why it lists them.

And you're right, (multiple) Epic spells are somewhat more useful for a Sorcerer than a Wizard, I hadn't thought of that. On the other hand to research this he needs to equal the DC on a spellcraft roll, which is Int based.

scwizard

2009-05-15, 08:13 AM

Improved Spell Capacity is a different thing altogether. It gives non-epic spell slots for spell levels 10 and up. A maximized Energy Drain is a level 12 non-epic spell.

He could have taken improved metamagic (http://systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/epicFeats.html#improved-metamagic) as one of the feats, instead of having 3 instances of improved spell capacity.

with an e

2009-05-15, 11:22 AM

EDIT: And you have to be able to actually use the seeds in question, that's another reason why it lists them.

And you're right, (multiple) Epic spells are somewhat more useful for a Sorcerer than a Wizard, I hadn't thought of that. On the other hand to research this he needs to equal the DC on a spellcraft roll, which is Int based.
The spellcraft check is for casting the spell, not developing it. As long as the caster has the epic spellcasting feat, the seeds, the xp, and the gp, he can develop the spell. Also, epic spells that use seeds from prohibited schools merely impose a -15 mod to the spellcraft checks.

Dark Matter

2009-05-15, 12:57 PM

The spellcraft check is for casting the spell, not developing it. As long as the caster has the epic spellcasting feat, the seeds, the xp, and the gp, he can develop the spell. Also, epic spells that use seeds from prohibited schools merely impose a -15 mod to the spellcraft checks.Ya, point, thanks. I hadn't thought of researching a spell you couldn't use.

However we still have the restriction on fundamentally Cleric and/or Druid spells. "Spells containing the life or heal seed are typically only available to those with 24 or more ranks in Knowledge (religion) or Knowledge (nature)" http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm#epicSpellDescriptions

Chronos

2009-05-15, 05:43 PM

However we still have the restriction on fundamentally Cleric and/or Druid spells. "Spells containing the life or heal seed are typically only available to those with 24 or more ranks in Knowledge (religion) or Knowledge (nature)" Both of which, interestingly enough, are class skills for wizards. The intention was probably that arcane casters cast epic spells using Knowledge (arcana), clerics cast them using Knowledge (religion), and druids cast them using Knowledge (nature), and that Life and Heal spells be divine-only, but intentions aside, that's not the way the rules actually work.

HamsterOfTheGod

2009-05-15, 10:36 PM

I don't know how close to the written items we want to stay...
There is, for example, no spellcraft-enhancing item in core.

In core epic? Sure the rod of epic spellcasting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/rods.htm#epicSpellcaster) gives +10 to spellcasting.

So we can also assume that Xykon didn't forge a ring of fire immunity, but created a wondrous air refreshener of fire immunity or something. Then, he would only need Craft Epic Wondrous Item, for which level 23 would be sufficient.

We don't know how he did it. It could be possible that he cooperated with another epic caster.

Assuming he also has a spellcraft-enhancing item +30 (costing ca. 90000 gp, and being non-epic), he could succeed casting the Superb dispelling while being in the mid-twenties range.

Or he could have a lesser item and Moment of Prescience.

So if we also assume that Haerta was around level 45, Suvie succeeded in a gamble with the Disjunction, and Xykon rolled high on his dispel check, we wouldn't have to adjust our estimation so much - Xykon being around level 26 is still enough for what he did.
Not sure why you need that high for Haerta since we don't know how Familicide was build.

:xykon: Incidentally, here's a pro tip for you: If you're going to use area effect spells, craft yourself a magic item that makes you immune to that type of damage.

Note: immune. Not highly resistant.

As far as spellcraft goes, some sample calculations:

Ranks: 35
Knowledge (arcana) synergy: +2
Skill focus (spellcraft): +3
Epic Skill Focus (spellcraft): +10
Item of spellcraft: +10
Total: +60, making a DC 59 check a piece of cake.
(Oh, and there's the int bonus, which Xykon very likely has, even if it's not very high in comparison to, say, V's.)

Note that this doesn't reveal what Xykon actually has, but suggests that an Epic Skill Focus feat and an item are both highly likely.

Isn't there also a feat that lets you take 10 on a given skill at any time?

Dark Matter

2009-05-16, 01:13 PM

I think we can get by without a spell craft buffing item. Granted, he could have it, but the only one I see doing that in core epic is that Rod, and we don't see a rod and have never seen X use rods.

Ranks: Level +3
Knowledge (arcana) synergy: +2
Skill focus (spellcraft): +3
Epic Skill Focus (spellcraft): +10
Int of 14 (see first page of this thread): +2
Most Epic Spellcrafters take 10 when casting it: +10 http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm#epicSpellcasting

Total: 30, Implying a level of 29+ for the DC of 59.

In addition, he gets epic feats at levels 21, 23, 24, 26, 27, 29, & 30.
1) Epic Spell Casting
2) Epic Skill Focus (spellcraft)
3,4,5) 3 Feats to cast Max Energy Drain and Still Meteor Swarm (3 instances of Improved Spell Capacity and/or Improved Metamagic)

5 Feats means level 27+.

If he has some "create epic item" feat (for energy "immunity") then that's 6 feats for level 29+. Although if he has that then the most likely route would be epic ring creation which pushes him up to level 35+ ... although since we didn't see epic rings before now I'd guess that's recent and he's "only" 35.

On the other hand, when the Order looted X's corpse and dungeon last time they found two magic rings. This suggests that X can create them, and "energy immunity" might only mean "effectively won't be taking damage from fire", which could be "only" a greater ring of energy resistance.

None of this is "proof", but between the epic spell crafting requirements and the very high level spells being thrown around, I think we're looking at high twenties and not low twenties for a lower bound. On a side note, V lost all her buffs when X tried to dispel them. That implies his level is on a par with those spliced souls... or maybe even higher. He's been a Litch for 30 years http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html and was probably epic before that, I guess it shouldn't be a shock.

Douglas

2009-05-16, 01:37 PM

On a side note, V lost all her buffs when X tried to dispel them. That implies his level is on a par with those spliced souls... or maybe even higher. He's been a Litch for 30 years http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html and was probably epic before that, I guess it shouldn't be a shock.
No, it doesn't. Superb Dispelling has a flat +40 bonus on the dispel check independent of caster level. A level 21 wizard casting it would be rolling 1d20+40 vs DC 11+caster level, and a level 100 wizard casting it would still be rolling 1d20+40. How well it worked at dispelling V's buffs tells us nothing about Xykon's caster level. The only information that can be inferred from that is the maximum caster level of the spliced souls. No matter what Xykon's level is, he'd automatically succeed against any spell with caster level 30 or lower and could potentially dispel anything up to caster level 49.

Nerdanel

2009-05-16, 01:51 PM

No, it doesn't. Superb Dispelling has a flat +40 bonus on the dispel check independent of caster level. A level 21 wizard casting it would be rolling 1d20+40 vs DC 11+caster level, and a level 100 wizard casting it would still be rolling 1d20+40. How well it worked at dispelling V's buffs tells us nothing about Xykon's caster level. The only information that can be inferred from that is the maximum caster level of the spliced souls. No matter what Xykon's level is, he'd automatically succeed against any spell with caster level 30 or lower and could potentially dispel anything up to caster level 49.

Nope. All that Superb Dispelling does compared to its non-epic counterparts is to have backlash and a higher ceiling.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/superbDispelling.htm

As greater dispel magic, except that the maximum bonus on the dispel check is +40, and the character takes 10d6 points of backlash damage.

Note the word maximum. Xykon must have been on a level comparable to the spliced V in order to dispel his defenses. Looking at the math, even if Xykon got 20 on his die roll against every effect, he could be at most 9 levels below spliced V's caster level. But since there were multiple buffs and Xykon dispelled them all, this is highly unlikely. To succeed on his roll every time, Xykon would have to be 10 levels above his V's caster level.

The laws of probability suggest that Xykon's caster level was actually higher than V's spliced souls. Ominous. Also, I think this is strong evidence for V's spliced power not having been the famous Complete and Total Ultimate Arcane Power.

Douglas

2009-05-16, 04:01 PM

Huh. I'm used to making my own epic spells from the seeds so I'm more familiar with the seeds than the premade spells, and I guess this is an all too typical case of WotC not reading their own rules. By the rules of the Dispel Seed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/dispel.htm), as used with the factors listed for Superb Dispelling, it should be +40 regardless of caster level. But as written specifically for Superb Dispelling, you are correct.

Dark Matter

2009-05-16, 10:22 PM

Note the word maximum. Xykon must have been on a level comparable to the spliced V in order to dispel his defenses. Looking at the math, even if Xykon got 20 on his die roll against every effect, he could be at most 9 levels below spliced V's caster level. But since there were multiple buffs and Xykon dispelled them all, this is highly unlikely. To succeed on his roll every time, Xykon would have to be 10 levels above his V's caster level.Technically we're not sure V lost "all" his buffs until after he lost the splice. We know he lost flight and the mental shield (I'm not sure we'd see the difference for the others).

But... yeah, I agree. I think all we can reasonable conclude is X is 27+ at a min (which isn't the same as "prove"), but I also think there's a lot of hints suggesting he's 35.

This means his business with Roy on the Dragon was almost his idea of a joke. 7 levels, 8, more? Xykon knew darn well he was a lot more, he was even hinting at it. 7 or 8 would just have put Roy to epic. Roy could have gone off, gotten 8 more levels... and then come back and *still* not been strong enough.

this is strong evidence for V's spliced power not having been the famous Complete and Total Ultimate Arcane Power. 16 each for his 8th & 9th level spell slots, and 7+ Epic (with the learned spells of 3 casters). I don't see how we get more "ultimate" Arcane power than that.

Deliverance

2009-05-17, 11:17 AM

I don't count myself as "experienced" but my read on the rules is he needed Epic Spellcasting and that's it.

Superb Dispelling is a "normal" (i.e. book listed) Epic spell. All you need to get it is spend the listed resources. http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicSpells.htm

So, if I understand you right, an epic level sorcerer will always be limited to his 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3 spells known per level unless he use a feat to gain spell knowledge BUT, at the same time, he can know as many Epic spells as he has resources to pay for developing without needing to take feats for extra spell knowledge?

If that is how it works, it just seems plain weird to me - being forever bound to a low number of highlevel spells known but knowing as many epic spells as you can afford time, resources, and XP for developing. :)

Kornaki

2009-05-17, 11:28 AM

So, if I understand you right, an epic level sorcerer will always be limited to his 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3 spells known per level unless he use a feat to gain spell knowledge BUT, at the same time, he can know as many Epic spells as he has resources to pay for developing without needing to take feats for extra spell knowledge?

If that is how it works, it just seems plain weird to me - being forever bound to a low number of highlevel spells known but knowing as many epic spells as you can afford time, resources, and XP for developing. :)

Because epic spellcasting works strictly in the wizardly sense (studying to learn up on them). It's not at all related to how sorcerer's gain their spells, so while sorcerers can learn and cast epic spells, they're not intuiting them like they do with their lower level ones. This has obvious advantages and disadvantages

Deliverance

2009-05-17, 11:58 AM

Because epic spellcasting works strictly in the wizardly sense (studying to learn up on them). It's not at all related to how sorcerer's gain their spells, so while sorcerers can learn and cast epic spells, they're not intuiting them like they do with their lower level ones. This has obvious advantages and disadvantages
Thanks, Kornaki. It still does not make much sense to me - as an example, while learning them like wizards do, they cast them like sorcerers do, spontaneously - and it means that it is actually in one sense cheaper for a sorcerer to learn epic spells than 0-9th level spells past 20 (since there's no feat cost) but if that's what WOTC says, that's just how it goes.

Which does beg the question why sorcerers can't research 0-9th spells (paying time, xp, and gold) in addition to those that are inherently known per level, but the answer to that is probably "we goddamn didn't want to waste time on writing different epic rules for spontaneous casters with limited amount of spell knowledge when a forced fit would do, so there's no consistency requirement".

Dark Matter

2009-05-17, 02:13 PM

Arguably it *sucks* to be a Sorcerer compared to a Wizard. You get 5 fewer feats from levels 0 to 20, and after you're epic you find you're using Int to cast epic spells.

In addition Int's bonus effects skill points so Wizards get off easy. A non-human Sorcerer with Int as a dump stat gets one skill point a level, and he's got three professional skills that need to be pumped (Concentration, Spellcraft, and Knowledge(Arcana)).

V (18 Int with Charisma as a dump stat) has those same three skills to pump but gets 6 skill points.

No wonder Xykon has such an inferiority complex.

Hmm... this implies that Xykon's Knowledge(Arcana) might be lower than his level +3 since he hasn't been skipping on Spellcraft and he also has Concentration and Bluff.

Aharon

2009-05-17, 04:43 PM

In core epic? Sure the rod of epic spellcasting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/rods.htm#epicSpellcaster) gives +10 to spellcasting.

Ah, didn't remember that.

We don't know how he did it. It could be possible that he cooperated with another epic caster.

Possible, but personally, I don't think that's likely story-wise.

Or he could have a lesser item and Moment of Prescience.
I thought it only works on opposed checks? The text in the SRD is

This spell grants you an insight bonus equal to your caster level (maximum +25) on any single attack roll, opposed ability or skill check, or saving throw.

I took that to mean that the adjective (opposed) refers to both the ability and the skill check - in my native language, this would be the case. Is that different in english?

Not sure why you need that high for Haerta since we don't know how Familicide was build.

Not because of the Familicide, but because of the Disjunction. I'm assuming V didn't choose a desperate tactic unlikely to work, when she could have instead teleported her family to safety.

Isn't there also a feat that lets you take 10 on a given skill at any time?

Considering the amount of feats published, I bet there is :smallbiggrin:

Illven

2009-05-17, 05:28 PM

Shouldn't Vaarsuvius's soul splice be removed

Simanos

2009-05-17, 08:16 PM

Chronos

2009-05-17, 08:39 PM

Which does beg the question why sorcerers can't research 0-9th spells (paying time, xp, and gold) in addition to those that are inherently known per levelThey can; they just don't get extra spells known out of it. A sorcerer who researches a new spell has to wait until he levels up and gains new spells known naturally, one of which can be the newly-researched spell. See, for instance, Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage.

Deliverance

2009-05-18, 02:21 AM

They can; they just don't get extra spells known out of it. A sorcerer who researches a new spell has to wait until he levels up and gains new spells known naturally, one of which can be the newly-researched spell. See, for instance, Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage.
Yes, but that was not the point (see. "in addition to those that are inherently known per level"). They cannot research and develop 0-9th level spells in a way that does not require them to increase their spells known somehow or another while they can do it for epic spells (20 and lower by leveling up or swapping out with another spell, 21+ by Epic Spell Knowledge).

- Inter alia, I would question the intelligence of a sorcerer who chooses one of the spells on his very short spell list to be a "Moderately Escapable Forcecage" but this is Xykon we are talking about so forget it. It made for a decent joke, and that's more than worth crowding out more useful spells.

Anyhow, I have gotten my answer and even if I, personally, find it weird that an epic sorcerer is locked at knowing three 9th level spells unless he uses feats on it while (hypothetically, if rich enough and with time to spare) he can know any number of epic spells. The practical implications are that Rich can have Xykon use any number of epic spells as he sees fit without anybody crying foul. :smallsmile:

pjackson

2009-05-18, 04:12 AM

Not because of the Familicide, but because of the Disjunction. I'm assuming V didn't choose a desperate tactic unlikely to work, when she could have instead teleported her family to safety.

Whilst one disjunction might be a desparate tactic, It seems fairly likely that Haerta had another disjunction prepared. They may have also have had a quickened version of the spell that allows a reroll prepared to have a second chance at the cost of (IIRC) a 7th level slot. I can't remember the name of that spell. I think it is in the Spell Compendium.

Teleporting the family to safety would only have been a temporary measure since the ABD could have followed. V was probably looking for a permanent solution.

blueblade

2009-05-18, 04:22 AM

Aharon

2009-05-18, 05:20 AM

Dark Matter

2009-05-18, 08:49 AM

@pjackson
The dragon first would have to use some time finding out where she teleported the family. Plus, if she teleported them somewhere safe, like, for example, close to the tower of her former master, the dragon would still have had a problem.The ABD already showed it was willing to wait months, and it had the location abilities to find V's family the first time. V wasn't going to have the splice forever (or even months). V needed to deal with it in a few rounds, or at worse, minutes.

...two disjunctions are very far from a safe bet. The least level that gives slightly more than a 50/50 chance is 30.Haerta had 4 9th level spell slots, she might have had 10th level slots as well. There was no reason she couldn't have filled all of them with Disjunction.

And then we come back to the problem, "what choice did V have?" Let the ABD come back for another try later? As sucky as Disjunction is at getting the job done, it has the advantage that it might work. The only other way to drop or ignore the anti-magic is Epic spells.

If one of the Epics had an Epic spell that could get rid of Disjunctions (Superb Dispelling for example) or an Epic spell that could get rid of the Dragon (Slay seed) then V could have used that instead. But if she had this then the entire fight would have lasted one round.

Simanos

2009-05-18, 09:24 AM

Um, coming back to the superb dispelling, the spell as written does more than simply raise the maximum bonus:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/superbDispelling.htm

Factors: additional +30 to dispel check (+30 DC)

This is what makes it comply with its own Seed (as douglas pointed out), explains why Xykon used it, and suggests that Xykon was not necessarily within 10 levels of soul-spliced V.

Apologies if I'm pointing out something obvious, not an expert player, but there seemed to be some confusion there.
No, you're wrong. The basic epic dispel seed has a base of 1d20+10(max) power. To make it up to 1d20+40(max) you have to spend more for the factor of +30 extra. That's all it means.
(max) is the maximum bonus you can give even if your level is higher. So a 30 level wizard with this epic superb dispel would still only get 1d20+30 (wasting the potential of +10 more). A level 50 wizard would get 1d20+40 not 1d20+50.
The "To Develop" line in the page you linked lists the costs of the spell, not its power and capabilities.

If one of the Epics had an Epic spell that could get rid of Disjunctions (Superb Dispelling for example) or an Epic spell that could get rid of the Dragon (Slay seed) then V could have used that instead. But if she had this then the entire fight would have lasted one round.
I think it's safe to say by now that Rich uses optional/house rules for dispelling in general. (Durkon dispelling Xykon's greater invis, V destroying the dragon's AMF, Xykon's superb dispelling on V...)
There are many variants out there that people have found work better than the CORE/RAW way of how dispelling works.

EphU437

2009-05-18, 03:42 PM

So, if I understand this correctly, the problem we are having with Xykon now is that his claim to have crafted a ring of Fire Immunity means he must be at least level 32, much higher than we thought he was.

As an alternative to this approach, what if he did not mean "immune" literally, but instead to mean that he was functionally immune? Consider that meteor swarm creates 4 spheres that each do 6d6 fire damage, i.e. 6-36. A ring of greater resistance (fire) means that he would only take a few points of fire damage from the spell.*

Also, are there any other magic items bsides for rings that give immunity? He doesn't say it is a ring.

* Does anyone know how to calculate the odds of none of the meteors doing more than 30 damage, or of how likely it is that he would take no more than 4 or 5 points of damage?

:xykon: Incidentally, here's a pro tip for you: If you're going to use area effect spells, craft yourself a magic item that makes you immune to that type of damage.

Note: immune. Not highly resistant.

As far as spellcraft goes, some sample calculations:

Ranks: 35
Knowledge (arcana) synergy: +2
Skill focus (spellcraft): +3
Epic Skill Focus (spellcraft): +10
Item of spellcraft: +10
Total: +60, making a DC 59 check a piece of cake.
(Oh, and there's the int bonus, which Xykon very likely has, even if it's not very high in comparison to, say, V's.)

Note that this doesn't reveal what Xykon actually has, but suggests that an Epic Skill Focus feat and an item are both highly likely.

Kurald Galain

2009-05-18, 04:40 PM

A ring of greater resistance (fire) means that he would only take a few points of fire damage from the spell.*
I concur that this is the most likely situation.

Does anyone know how to calculate the odds of none of the meteors doing more than 30 damage, or of how likely it is that he would take no more than 4 or 5 points of damage?
Each meteor is 99.01% likely to do 30 or less damage, which is thus reduced to zero. That means that the swarm as a whole is 96.10% likely to do zero damage to Xykon. The most he can take is 24 damage, the odds for which are less than 0.00000000000001%

Y'nokhs

2009-05-18, 08:42 PM

No, you're wrong. The basic epic dispel seed has a base of 1d20+10(max) power. To make it up to 1d20+40(max) you have to spend more for the factor of +30 extra. That's all it means.
(max) is the maximum bonus you can give even if your level is higher. So a 30 level wizard with this epic superb dispel would still only get 1d20+30 (wasting the potential of +10 more). A level 50 wizard would get 1d20+40 not 1d20+50.
The "To Develop" line in the page you linked lists the costs of the spell, not its power and capabilities.

I don't see how this is supported by the text. It says nothing about maximums, the dispel check is just 1d20+10, then as many +1s as you can afford. It's not related to the caster's caster level in any way. Just because nonepic dispels work that way does not mean epics do.

Zevox

2009-05-18, 09:20 PM

Just because nonepic dispels work that way does not mean epics do.
Yes, actually that is exactly what it means. Just read the spell description:

Superb Dispelling
<snip>

As greater dispel magic, except that the maximum bonus on the dispel check is +40, and the character takes 10d6 points of backlash damage.
Superb Dispelling's rules work exactly the same as non-epic Dispel spells do, just with a higher cap on the dispel bonus and backlash damage to deal with.

Zevox

Y'nokhs

2009-05-18, 09:47 PM

Yes, actually that is exactly what it means. Just read the spell description:

Superb Dispelling's rules work exactly the same as non-epic Dispel spells do, just with a higher cap on the dispel bonus and backlash damage to deal with.

Zevox

Except how the epic rules are written, it shouldn't. The Dispel seed simply doesn't work like that. I guess it comes down to whether one sees the seed descriptions or the spell descriptions as the higher authority. I'd go with seeds, because the spells presented in the ELH are created from the seeds as per the development rules, so the spell effects are determined by the seed effects, not vice versa. It just seems someone at WOTC messed up the development process outlined IN THE SAME CHAPTER when creating Superb Dispel. Typical, really.

JeptCloak

2009-05-18, 09:47 PM

I don't think you should assume in house rules unless explicitly shown. We have 3 incidents so far, none of which necessarily leads to that conclusion. Durkon's indicates he wanted Xykon to about lvl 21-22 at the time, whereas the current Superb Dispelling is one of many signs we've seen that he has changed his mind, and is bolstering Xykon upwards, to around lvl 26-32. The reason for the change is plot (which may or may not be explained later with "oh, I have a hobgoblin wizard with a scroll who casts invisibility"), not because rules are intended to be ignored for dispelling.

Likewise, all disjunction tells us is that Haerta was really powerful, and/or she had an item or means to bolster that particular spell (though really powerful works fine). From what I understand somewhere from lvl 30 would be above a 50% chance at disjunction working, and Haerta looks to be well above that, so there is no problem. Just assume she's at the necessary level for it to stand a good chance to work, and/or has a means of bolstering it.

blueblade

2009-05-19, 01:31 AM

Agreed. The spell as written, is vastly worse than a spell of the same DC that you create with the seed. Almost certainly errata'd, or should be.

Consider the example where you create an epic spell using seed:dispel and don't add anything to the DC of the spell check. By your logic, you would have a spell which takes a 9th level slot, but is identical in every way to Dispel, except that it can affect supernatural abilities. Worse than the 6th level greater dispel, certainly.

Aharon

2009-05-19, 04:59 AM

@Dark Matter
Yeah. Except that after the first Disjunction not working, the dragon approaches V, V is in the AMF and toast. There's a difference between a desperate tactic and a completely hopeless tactic.

And you completely ignored the "teleporting them to safety" part. So what if the dragon finds out where the family is now? It has to deal with V's former master, and possibly other apprentices. Now, we don't know what level her master is, but V thought he would be able to keep the ABD in check.

Simanos

2009-05-19, 05:44 AM

Roumani and Y'nokhs you are reading the epic Dispel Seed wrong. Feel free to ask around at WotC forums or somewhere like that (Sage?) to get expert advice. The epic spell Superb Dispelling was made following the Dispel Seed rules. Look at what it says (in Superb Dispel):

Seed: dispel (DC 19)

See?

As for the seed, it says:

The caster makes a dispel check against the spell or against each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature. A dispel check is 1d20 + 10 against a DC of 11 + the target spell’s caster level. For each additional +1 on the dispel check, increase the Spellcraft DC by +1.

See? The basic Dispel Seed is 1d20+10 and for each +1 more to that you increase the DC by +1. So a basic Dispel Seed has a Spellcraft DC of 19 and if you want one for 1d20+20 it will have a DC of 29, if you want 1d20+60 the DC is 69. Then you must also add other factors too (1-action casting time (+20 DC). Mitigating factor: 10d6 backlash (-10 DC).)

You could argue that the +20 (or +60) is not max, but it says it works as a Dispel Check so we have to assume that it is. The burden of proof is on you to prove otherwise. And Superb Dispel backs up this interpretation of the Dispel Seed. So you played and lost, sorry :smallcool:

Douglas

2009-05-19, 06:02 AM

See? The basic Dispel Seed is 1d20+10 and for each +1 more to that you increase the DC by +1. So a basic Dispel Seed has a Spellcraft DC of 19 and if you want one for 1d20+20 it will have a DC of 29, if you want 1d20+60 the DC is 69. Then you must also add other factors too (1-action casting time (+20 DC). Mitigating factor: 10d6 backlash (-10 DC).)

You could argue that the +20 (or +60) is not max, but it says it works as a Dispel Check so we have to assume that it is. The burden of proof is on you to prove otherwise. And Superb Dispel backs up this interpretation of the Dispel Seed. So you played and lost, sorry :smallcool:
Uh, no. Point out where the term "dispel check" is explicitly defined to always be based on caster level regardless of the spell used and you might have a point. In reality, no such definition exists and the seed quite clearly defines the bonus it gives on the check with no mention whatsoever of it being a maximum or based in any way on caster level.

Simanos

2009-05-19, 07:07 AM

Uh, no. Point out where the term "dispel check" is explicitly defined to always be based on caster level regardless of the spell used and you might have a point. In reality, no such definition exists and the seed quite clearly defines the bonus it gives on the check with no mention whatsoever of it being a maximum or based in any way on caster level.
Dispel Check is defined in many places. In the Dispel Magic spell description for one. And elsewhere.
Also when you say that the seed quite clearly defines the bonus it gives on the check with no mention whatsoever of it being a maximum or based in any way on caster level you are being very misleading. For one, if it clearly defined it we wouldn't be having this discussion at all. Also the example spell based on this seed (Superb Dispel) shows what the true intention of the developers is.
But don't take my word for it. Ask around. I dare you.

EDIT:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm#dispellingEpicSpellsAndAntimagicFi eld

Likewise, epic spells using the dispel seed can dispel nonepic spells. Such epic spells use the same game mechanic: The check to dispel is 1d20 + a specified number (usually dispeller’s level), and the DC is 11 + the spellcaster’s level.

pjackson

2009-05-19, 07:48 AM

@pjackson
A quickened disjunction uses a 13th level spell slot. V didn't show the capabilities to use those.
But even if she had, if we assume a lower level, two disjunctions are very far from a safe bet. The least level that gives slightly more than a 50/50 chance is 30.

Combining these points, I think it's safe to assume that Haerta really was quite more powerful than the other two splices.

That was stated in #641 and there is no reason to assume it wasn't true.
But 30-35 seems quite high enough.

V could easily have been prepared for 4 attempts - 2 disjunctions and 2 quickened copies of the spell that allows a reroll (which IIRC is 3rd level).

Dark Matter

2009-05-19, 08:29 AM

And you completely ignored the "teleporting them to safety" part. So what if the dragon finds out where the family is now? It has to deal with V's former master, and possibly other apprentices. Now, we don't know what level her master is, but V thought he would be able to keep the ABD in check.So V's master is willing to drop all his studies and do nothing but be a round the clock body guard for V's family for... how long? Months? Years? Decades? For that entire length of time he's always going to have a Disjunction or three in his 9th level spell slots? The children are never going to leave his presence to go to school or get jobs or get married?

@Dark Matter
Yeah. Except that after the first Disjunction not working, the dragon approaches V, V is in the AMF and toast. There's a difference between a desperate tactic and a completely hopeless tactic. Disjunction in the surprise round, and we hope that V had some spell to keep herself out of reach if she had too. Quickened Wall of Force or Dimension Door.

Further... V was EXTREMELY stupid about this whole thing. Not turning on buffs early in the game, letting herself get eaten. She would have lost against the ABD right there if it'd cast AMS again. V's tactics were rash and ill thought out.

Even if H had been the weakest member of the splice, I think V would *still* have done exactly the same thing.

Kurald Galain

2009-05-19, 06:03 PM

whereas the current Superb Dispelling is one of many signs we've seen that he has changed his mind, and is bolstering Xykon upwards, to around lvl 26-32.
No it isn't. The only real sign so far is that fire immunity, and that only barely qualifies as there are non-epic ways of solving that. Xykon only needs to be 21 to do a Superb Dispelling. That is because you don't know exactly how the Soul Splice works, nor what Xykon rolled on his Dispel check. This thread does not assume that everybody always rolls low.

Simanos

2009-05-19, 06:11 PM

Disjunction in the surprise round, and we hope that V had some spell to keep herself out of reach if she had too. Quickened Wall of Force or Dimension Door.
V can't cast Disjunction in the surprise round because he has to wait for the dragon to cast her AMF first :p
I'm more and more inclined to believe Rich uses custom dispel rules. I'm reminded of AGC, Another Gaming Comic. They had custom rules for it too.

JeptCloak

2009-05-19, 06:32 PM

No it isn't. The only real sign so far is that fire immunity, and that only barely qualifies as there are non-epic ways of solving that. Xykon only needs to be 21 to do a Superb Dispelling. That is because you don't know exactly how the Soul Splice works, nor what Xykon rolled on his Dispel check. This thread does not assume that everybody always rolls low.

Yeh, if Xykon has a rod, etc for maximising, if Xykon has another way for fire immunity, if, if, if... the most reasonable explanation if Xykon's been beefed up to 26+, and the earlier plot inconvenient moments have been forgotten.

Da'Shain

2009-05-19, 06:35 PM

How is the most reasonable explanation the one that requires us to throw out previous facts, when it's possible for Xykon to have done everything he did and still be on the low end of epic (with, of course, a + to CR for being a lich)?

batsofchaos

2009-05-19, 06:36 PM

Speculations aside, can't we now add Superb Dispelling to Xykon's list of spells known?

JeptCloak

2009-05-19, 06:43 PM

Because from what I've been told the most logical explanation for why Xykon can; a) forge such an item, b) maximise energy drain, while c) also casting epic spells, and d) being able to superb dispel V's powers, is because he's above lvl 21.

Just take point b) for a minute. How would it be more sensible to assume he has an unseen rod of maximise, or an un-explained item of maximising, or is using non-core rules to do it? Surely the most sensible explanation is he took a feat to do it, and thus needs to be at lvl 26 when you consider he has the epic spell feat too.

Dark Matter

2009-05-19, 09:30 PM

How would it be more sensible to assume he has an unseen rod of maximise, or an un-explained item of maximising, or is using non-core rules to do it? Surely the most sensible explanation is he took a feat to do it, and thus needs to be at lvl 26 when you consider he has the epic spell feat too.Agreed... but that's the difference between what we can prove and what we think. I think, you think, most of us think, that Xykon is at least level 26 and probably more. But what we can actually prove is only 21+, no matter how absurd it is to think that Xykon has a rod inside his skeleton that he can't make.

RE: Superb Dispelling & house rules
Unfortunately Rich has to house rule this. He has no choice because the core rules say two different, mutually exclusive things. The Descriptive Text in SD says 'like the other dispels', the seed (and factors for building it) says something very different.

Superb Dispelling either gives a flat +40 or it gives +level(max 40).

I wouldn't be shocked that there's another house rule that says in the event of a natural 20 you can also add in your ability modifier or something if we really want to add in the Dwarf.

RMS Oceanic

2009-05-20, 03:02 AM

Agreed... but that's the difference between what we can prove and what we think. I think, you think, most of us think, that Xykon is at least level 26 and probably more. But what we can actually prove is only 21+, no matter how absurd it is to think that Xykon has a rod inside his skeleton that he can't make.

To an extent, I disagree. I always believed that we took what happens in th ecomic, and apply the rules as displayed in The SRD (http://www.d20srd.org) to explain it, and from this we take the most likely explaination. This is why I reject the use of the Sudden Metamagic feats, because they are not in the core ruleset, and haven't been actively referenced to, unlike Electric Orb. Now what the most likely explaination is depends on context (high ability score? a feat? levels?), but I'm pretty sure that assuming they have a specific magic item are generally at the bottom of the pile, until we are explicitly told about it.

So basically, I would peg the simplest explaination is Xykon is level 26+. If evidence of using metamagic reducers/negators emerge in the next comic, we can tone it back down to level 21.

RMS Oceanic

2009-05-20, 04:23 AM

Incidentally, O-Chul now had Xykon's Phylactery/Redcloaks' Holy Symbol.

Yendor

2009-05-20, 04:26 AM

Incidentally, O-Chul now had Xykon's Phylactery/Redcloaks' Holy Symbol.

And a steel bar.

lord_khaine

2009-05-20, 04:35 AM

To an extent, I disagree. I always believed that we took what happens in the comic, and apply the rules as displayed in The SRD to explain it, and from this we take the most likely explaination

and i allways belived we took the most likely explanation, going in or out of core depending on what fits best with the rest of the facts.

also, so far we only have Xykons word for him being totaly immune to fire, and not just so resistant that a meteor shower wont hurt him.

therefor i dont belive a sudden gain of 3-4 levels are a reasonable explanation when more (ingame) simple solutions are present.

Ancalagon

2009-05-20, 04:38 AM

Incidentally, O-Chul now had Xykon's Phylactery/Redcloaks' Holy Symbol.

I doubt he's keeping it for long... ;)

Kurald Galain

2009-05-20, 05:04 AM

Yeh, if Xykon has a rod, etc for maximising, if Xykon has another way for fire immunity, if, if, if... the most reasonable explanation if Xykon's been beefed up to 26+, and the earlier plot inconvenient moments have been forgotten.
No, the most reasonable explanation is one that doesn't contradict established facts.

This is not about the maximizing: it's easy for Xykon to have Sudden Maximize, that doesn't say anything about his level. It's not even an epic feat.

But inferring that Xykon has "craft epic ring" from his sarcastic comment that V should create an item that makes him unaffected by his own spells, that's such a huge leap of logic that it requires an epic (or Miko-worthy) jump DC.

derfenrirwolv

2009-05-20, 05:25 AM

RMS Oceanic

To an extent, I disagree. I always believed that we took what happens in th ecomic, and apply the rules as displayed in The SRD to explain it, and from this we take the most likely explaination.

There is no srd Explanation of Xykon casting meteor swarm while grabbed by Bixby's hand. It has to be sudden still spell or an alteration of the rules.

Dark Matter

2009-05-20, 08:17 AM

To an extent, I disagree. I always believed that we took what happens in th ecomic, and apply the rules as displayed in The SRD (http://www.d20srd.org) to explain it, and from this we take the most likely explaination. This is why I reject the use of the Sudden Metamagic feats, because they are not in the core ruleset, and haven't been actively referenced to, unlike Electric Orb. Now what the most likely explaination is depends on context (high ability score? a feat? levels?), but I'm pretty sure that assuming they have a specific magic item are generally at the bottom of the pile, until we are explicitly told about it.

So basically, I would peg the simplest explaination is Xykon is level 26+. If evidence of using metamagic reducers/negators emerge in the next comic, we can tone it back down to level 21.If we're going to limit ourselves to the core, then I think we're at 27+.

Epic Feats
1) Epic Spell Casting
2,3,4) 3 Feats to cast Max Energy Drain and Still Meteor Swarm (3 instances of Improved Spell Capacity and/or Improved Metamagic)
5) Epic Skill Focus (spellcraft)

5 Feats means level 27+.

Epic Skill Focus is STRONGLY implied because otherwise that Epic Dispel spell can only be cast on something like a natural 20... (or his Spell Craft is so because his level is so high and that also puts him at above 27).

baerdith

2009-05-20, 08:33 AM

RMS OceanicThere is no srd Explanation of Xykon casting meteor swarm while grabbed by Bixby's hand. It has to be sudden still spell or an alteration of the rules.

Oh? A high level Sorc can't apply metamagic on the fly?
Plain ol' Still Meteor Swarm works without altering the rules....

V round: Bixby's hand
X round: Sarcastic comment (free action), Still MS
V round: Ignore Mind fog (free action) Disintegrate
etc...

Kurald Galain

2009-05-20, 08:42 AM

If we're going to limit ourselves to the core, then I think we're at 27+.
Nope. There's these feats called Sudden Maximize and Sudden Still that let you do things a few times per day without level increase (and, more importantly, without casting time increase).

Epic Skill Focus is STRONGLY implied because otherwise that Epic Dispel spell can only be cast on something like a natural 20...
No, it is not. That is because you are making assumptions on how the soul splice works, which may well be incorrect. If V's casting level is ~21, then Redcloak will have trouble dispelling his buffs since Reddy is still quite a bit below epic; whereas Xykon will not.

Oh? A high level Sorc can't apply metamagic on the fly?
No. For a sorc, casting anything metamagicked is a full-round action (or more). And you can't use full-round actions while grappled.

Nerdanel

2009-05-20, 10:21 AM

I think O'chul is
1) epic, and
2) has the Dire Charge epic feat.

Anyway, I think a close examination #655 reveals that O'chul did a full attack on a charge, and that's something that's not so easy to do.

O'chul
- overran Redcloak
- hit Redcloak with a Smite Evil
- disarmed Redcloak's holy symbol
and Redcloak didn't act once during that (other than speaking which is a free action).

Here is a list if ways to gain Pounce (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-589526.html), most of which can be ruled out as far as O'chul is concerned.

1) Snow Tiger Berserker feat (berserker lodge feat (RP restriction), light weapons only, Unapproachable East)
1) Lion Tribe Warrior (Regional feat, human only, single light weapon only, Shining South)

Even if O'chul managed to qualify for those feats somehow, I think that iron bar is definitely not a light weapon.

2) Catfolk Pounce feat (Racial feat: Catfolk, Races of the Wild. Available at character level 1, but listed at level 2 because of Catfolk's +1 LA)

O'chul is a human, so this isn't it.

4) Psionic Lion's Charge (2nd level psywar power, augments to add damage to each attack, Expanded Psionic's Handbook)

I think it would be quite a plot twist if O'chul turned out to have levels in psychic warrior.

5) Lion's Charge (3rd level druid / 4th level ranger spell, most recent version Miniatures Handbook)

It also would be almost as big a plot twist if O'chul had levels in druid or ranger.

5) Wild Shape (Fleshraker, Monster Manual III)
6) Lion's Pounce Wild Feat (Complete Divine)
7) Polymorph spell (many forms grant Pounce or similar abilities)
7) Metamorphosis power (as Polymorph, but might require Supernatural Transformation)
8) Wild Shape (Tiger) (If Core-only.)
8) Weretouched II: Tiger (Weretouched Master prestige class ability, Shifter only and only while shifting, Eberron CS)
10) Pouncing Ambush (5th level Reachrunner prestige class ability, Shifter only and only while shifting, against flat-footed opponent only, Races of Eberron)

O'chul did his charge while human, not shapeshifted into a tiger or something, so none of these count.

11) Lion's Pounce (4th level Sigh Rager prestige class ability, Oriental Adventures)

Google has next to nothing on the Sigh Rager prestige class, so I can't shut this one out although I suspect it's meant for barbarians. It looks to be a really unpopular prestige class, though.

11) Lion's Pounce (5th level Lion of Talisid prestige class ability, Book of Exalted Deeds)

Lion of Talisid (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031004b) turns out to be a prestige class for Neutral Good druids, which O'chul cannot be without becoming a fallen paladin and unable to Smite Evil, like he just did.

13) Drift 4: Pounce like a leopard (7th level Geomancer drift, Complete Divine)

More magic stuff that doesn't really fit O'chul, and takes a ton of caster levels to qualify to boot.

17) Shapechange spell (many forms grant Pounce or an extra move action, or something sicker (Chronotryn (FF), Choker).)
17) Greater Metamorphosis power (As Shapechange, but may require Metamorphic Transfer feat)

Once again, O'chul did his charge as a human, ruling these out.

21) Dire Charge epic feat (Widely accepted as at least slightly underpowered, but works regardless of your equipment or magic availability. Draconomicon)

I think this one is the best fit, although I'm sure people will now start to make hypotheses where O'chul is secretly a spellcaster or whatever that Sigh Rager thing is in order to keep his level down. I think O'chul has simply leveled up from surviving Xykon's death traps and the like.

Shadic

2009-05-20, 10:48 AM

I think we're going to have to chalk this up to O-Chul just being awesome.

The Giant has already stated (As well as people in-comic) that Miko was the most powerful member of the Sapphire Guard.

Dark Matter

2009-05-20, 10:52 AM

Nope. There's these feats called Sudden Maximize and Sudden Still that let you do things a few times per day without level increase (and, more importantly, without casting time increase).And where, in the core rules, is that feat? http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/feats.htm

Epic Skill Focus is STRONGLY implied because otherwise that Epic Dispel spell can only be cast on something like a natural 20... No, it is not. That is because you are making assumptions on how the soul splice works, which may well be incorrect. If V's casting level is ~21, then Redcloak will have trouble dispelling his buffs since Reddy is still quite a bit below epic; whereas Xykon will not.I don't care how the splice works for this part. Superb Dispelling has a DC of 59.

Without Epic Skill Focus and with only the core rules (and assuming he doesn't have that Epic Rod), I don't see how Xykon can cast this spell below level 27.

At level 27 he gets...
Knowledge (arcana) synergy: +2
Skill focus (spellcraft): +3
Magical Aptitude: +2
Intelligence Bonus (got +5 from age and being a Lich): +2
Epic Skill Focus (spellcraft): +10
Level +3: +30
Takes 10: +10
---------------
Total: 59

If we drop him to level 26 then he loses Epic Skill Focus (-10) one point from level (-1) and he can't take 10 (-10). This gives him a total of 38, so even on a natural 20 he's not going to make 59.

Xiander

2009-05-20, 11:06 AM

Anyway, I think a close examination #655 reveals that O'chul did a full attack on a charge, and that's something that's not so easy to do.

O'chul
- overran Redcloak
- hit Redcloak with a Smite Evil
- disarmed Redcloak's holy symbol
and Redcloak didn't act once during that (other than speaking which is a free action).

Well, i see it a bit differently:
Round one: Redcloak wins initiative and casts disintegrate. O-Chul chargeattacks and rolls a critical hit.
Round two: O-chul wins initiative and spends his action on a disarm which succeeds. Redcloak ports out.

This of course assumes that initiative is rolled every round, but thats a small assumption.

Kurald Galain

2009-05-20, 11:09 AM

The Giant has already stated (As well as people in-comic) that Miko was the most powerful member of the Sapphire Guard.
Emphasis on "was", though. How many levels could O-Chul have gained from repeated dangerous encounters like the one with the acidic shark?

Anyway, I think a close examination #655 reveals that O'chul did a full attack on a charge, and that's something that's not so easy to do.
Ah, see, here's the problem. You make an assumption, post a complex rule-based analysis, and conclude that he is epic. The problem is, you're not questioning your assumption. What if O-Chul did not use a full attack? Because we know what full attacks in the comic look like ("slash slash slash slash slash") and this isn't it. Also, if O-Chul were epic, he'd have had more than three attacks on a full attack.

O-Chul appears to have some kind of feat that does a knockdown on a charge, and Redcloak appears to hesitate after being struck, thus losing a few points of initiative. After all, most characters in the comic do not use optimal strategy all the time.

Shadic

2009-05-20, 12:35 PM

Emphasis on "was", though. How many levels could O-Chul have gained from repeated dangerous encounters like the one with the acidic shark?

Not enough to go from sub-16 (Likely around 12 or so, I believe) to epic.

shadzar

2009-05-20, 12:38 PM

I think we're going to have to chalk this up to O-Chul just being awesome.

The Giant has already stated (As well as people in-comic) that Miko was the most powerful member of the Sapphire Guard.

As far as they knew. Lord Scruffy probably knew otherwise, and kept the real strongest member close to him in case of attack by the other nobles, in order to best protect the secret of the Sapphire Guard prior to Miko/etc eavesdropping on him talking to Roy et all and finding out the secret of the lie.

Draz74

2009-05-20, 12:48 PM

To me, it looks like:

1) O-chul uses his surprise round to move within 5' of Redcloak.
2) Redcloak wins initiative.
3) Redcloak 5-ft steps back and casts Disintegrate.
4) O-chul 5-ft steps forward and makes a full attack (Smite Evil added to first attack; second attack is a Disarm).
5) Either there's a third attack in that full attack that knocks Redcloak prone, or his falling prone is just fudging the rules. (Or O-chul has a homebrew Knockdown-like feat.)
6) Redcloak's turn again. He casts Word of Recall defensively.

No move-and-full-attack necessary.

batsofchaos

2009-05-20, 01:08 PM

Or O-Chul has Improved Trip and used his immediate attack to disarm Redcloak.

Twilight Jack

2009-05-20, 01:14 PM

Godskook

2009-05-20, 01:20 PM

There is no srd Explanation of Xykon casting meteor swarm while grabbed by Bixby's hand. It has to be sudden still spell or an alteration of the rules.

Automatic Still Spell works, is SRD, and requires him to be L27 with 3(of 5 epic feats possible by that point) epic feats spent on said feat. It might not be how he did it, but it shouldn't be overlooked as a possibility.

Nerdanel

2009-05-20, 01:26 PM

O'chul's cage bar appears to be an improvised shortspear wielded in two hands for more bonus damage and because doing otherwise would be wasting a hand. It does piercing damage as can be seen in how it impaled the demon roach and pierced Redcloak's eye. This is consistent with an improvised spear while an improvised quarterstaff would do bludgeoning damage. In any case, after some googling I'm not sure Knockdown is even a D&D feat.

But really, I think the graphics themselves are a clue. O'chul doesn't look to me like he's doing a 5-foot step there. He's running (look at his feet) and then leaping. That looks like a Leap Attack to me.

As for the question of only three attacks per round, I think it's possible that O'chul's misses were simply not pictured as they happened between panels

Snake-Aes

2009-05-20, 01:30 PM

paddyfool

2009-05-20, 01:31 PM

5) Either there's a third attack in that full attack that knocks Redcloak prone, or his falling prone is just fudging the rules. (Or O-chul has a homebrew Knockdown-like feat.)

Why does it have to be homebrew? Standard knock-down seems to fit pretty well: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown

The only tricky part is the "Deity" requirement. Hmm... O'Chul, what are you hiding?

Nerdanel

2009-05-20, 01:52 PM

Why does it have to be homebrew? Standard knock-down seems to fit pretty well: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown

The only tricky part is the "Deity" requirement. Hmm... O'Chul, what are you hiding?

Hmmm...

Deities can obtain the feats described here, in addition to any standard feats.

It doesn't actually say non-deities CAN'T take those feats.

The hard thing with feats is that there are so many of them spread over so many places.

Douglas

2009-05-20, 01:53 PM

The only tricky part is the "Deity" requirement. Hmm... O'Chul, what are you hiding?
Except that's not actually a requirement at all. The location of a feat in that section of the SRD means nothing more nor less than that the feat was printed in Deities and Demigods. Each of those feats is available for non-deific characters as well, and is printed in at least one other book in a section quite clearly intended for normal PCs.

hamishspence

2009-05-20, 01:58 PM

in the actual Deities & Demigods sourcebook:

"all of which were published in other D&D game products. Because these feats, (as well as those in the Player's Handbook) were originally designed for uses by player characters, many of them have prerequisites that any deity automatically meets, such as BAB +2 for Hold The Line. Nevertheless, those prerequisites are retained in these feat descriptions so that the descriptions will be consistant with the way they were originally published."

Translation- all the feats in Deities & Demigods, in SRD, were originally in sourcebooks like Tome and Blood, Masters of the Wild, etc- player character sourcebooks.

Borris

2009-05-20, 02:12 PM

Well, i see it a bit differently:
Round one: Redcloak wins initiative and casts disintegrate. O-Chul chargeattacks and rolls a critical hit.
Round two: O-chul wins initiative and spends his action on a disarm which succeeds. Redcloak ports out.
That doesn't work. You only roll initiative once, at the start of combat.

And where do people get the idea that O-Chul has to be epic? I can have it work easily with O-Chul at level 12±1 and Redcloak at 16±1.

Redcloak gives order to Jirix, and then turn around. He then notices O-Chul right in front of him (a little late, but I think the OotS world has an houserule -10 penalty on Spot/Listen check to notice other creatures). Redcloak wins initiative.

1st round: Redcloak casts disintegrate, succeeds on the ranged touch attack. O-Chul makes his saving throw, takes about 18 points of damage.

O-Chul then makes a 5-foot step towad Redcloak and does a full attack. As a Ftr4/Pal8 with an improvised spear, 16 Str and >12 Cha his bonus his +11/+6/+1. First attack is a critical hit (look at the title) with a smite, dealing an expected average of 33 points of damage (2x(1d8+4Str+8Smite)). The little jump is there just as an artistic interpretation of a Smite+Critical. The lost eye is a houserules critical hit effect.

Second attack (not shown explicitely): Trip attempt. Redcloak gets no attack of opportunity since he's unarmed. The bonus may be only +6, but it's a touch attack, so it hits with more than a 50% chance. A +3 Str check opposed by Redcloak's Str or Dex is likely to succeed, and even moreso if you consider Redcloak to be small-sized despite what the art makes it look like.

Third attack: Disarm.Redcloak still gets no attack of opporunity. Then there's an opposed attack roll. O-Chul has a two-handed improvised weapon (+12 BAB, +1 for third attack, +4 for two-handed weapon, -4 for improvised = +13). Redcloak has an unarmed strike, considered a light weapon (+12 BAB, +0 Str, -4 light weapon, -4 "if the item is poorly secured or otherwise easy to snatch or cut away the attacker gets a +4 bonus" = +4). Redcloak may also have a -4 size penalty on the opposed roll.

2nd round: Redcloak is prone and hurt. (Under 50% of his hp if he missed his Reflex saving throw against V's chain lightning, even assuming 16th-level and a Con modifier of +2). Getting up would provoke an AoO. Most spells are unavailable due to lost holy symbol. Grabing the symbol would trigger an AoO and another disintegrate wouldn't kill O-Chul (even on a missed Fort save). Safest option? Get out of there and let Xylon deal with the problem.

O-Chul would have attacked, but Redcloak is already gone.

Now draw the above scene ina dynamic fashion and you get comic #655.

O-Chul sures gets lucky to succeed on all those rolls, but each of them (except for the intial natural 20) had more than a 50% chance to occur.

Borris

2009-05-20, 02:16 PM

And Combat Expertise/Improved Trip/Knockdown would make the scene even simpler to explain, but I'm acting under the impression that we're looking for the lowest common justification in this thread.

Twilight Jack

2009-05-20, 02:23 PM

Borris

2009-05-20, 02:35 PM

Let's not forget that with Fighter levels, O-Chul almost certainly has Power Attack. Let's also remember that a spear does x3 damage on a critical hit and that a reasonable DM may well rule that an improvised one does the same, even if it's not RAW.
We're going by the assumption that, unless noted otherwise, the comic is always within the game's standard rules. And as per the PHB and SRD, an improvised weapon always has a critical threat of 20 and double damage on a crit. Only the damage should be based off a similar weapon.

An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit.
Also, Power Attack would lower O-Chul's already bad chances of hitting Redcloak (especially on his 2nd and 3rd attacks). And as shown in my analysis, there's no need for it. Assuming the hit points of a 16th-level cleric with 12 Constitution, another critical smite would kill Redcloak. The odds may be less than 5%, but he's not the type to risk his life easily, not even for Xykon.