Class and Level Geekery IV (some [spoiler]s) [Archive] - Page 6

Fitzclowningham

2009-06-21, 09:54 PM

But why would he waste a 10th level slot on a spell he doesn't bother to apply metamagic to?

28 Charisma is easy to justify: start with 18, add 5 for levelling, 3 for age and 2 for lichification. I don't understand why some people don't believe he could have started with maximum charisma. Maybe he didn't attract too many minions because of his zap-first-and-ask-questions-later-nature.

I think Xykon's charisma manifests more in a he's-so-evil-it's-awe-inspiring way than in a omg-I-love-him way. Both kinds allow their possessors to influence other people, but in Xykon's case, his acts as a force multiplier to his ability to intimidate. Only in the case of someone like Tsukiko would it manifest in others the desire to follow and emulate him.

Chronos

2009-06-22, 08:41 PM

The simple answer to why he didn't have any followers early on is just that he didn't take the Leadership feat then.

Random832

2009-06-25, 06:14 PM

Just checked this for a post I made in the daily comic thread, and...

:elan:
Cha ≥20 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html) (to gain two 4th level spells)

I don't think that's right - the SRD says that the Bard spells known table is fixed (except for gaining two early if you qualify for any bonus spells per day). And that comic doesn't even talk about gaining two 4th-level spells, it's talking about 5th-level spells - for which it is consistent with gaining only one spell per day and two known)

Should be Cha ≥ 18 (was stated =18 in an early strip, I don't know if ), do we have anything else justifying ≥19 or ≥20? I'll check to see if he could have raised an ability score between then and now, anyone know offhand where that is in the books?

Spells (per day ≥ 3 5 5 5 3; known ≥ 6 4 4 4 4)

This is definitely wrong, it says he doesn't have any fifth-level spells.

Should be per day ≥ 3 5 5 5 3 1; known = 6 4 4 4 4 2.

----

He was at Bard 12 when he took Dashing Swordsman, and he leveled up at least once in Bard before that after the Cha 18 was mentioned by Haley, so that puts his Cha at either 18 or 19, depending on whether he raised it.

Do we have anything that would say if he has Cha 19?

Shadic

2009-06-25, 06:15 PM

Roy's alive, obvious.

And we haven't had an update in the main post for a while now...

Wrecan

2009-06-25, 06:34 PM

I don't think that's right - the SRD says that the Bard spells known table is fixed (except for gaining two early if you qualify for any bonus spells per day). And that comic doesn't even talk about gaining two 4th-level spells, it's talking about 5th-level spells - for which it is consistent with gaining only one spell per day and two known)

Should be Cha ≥ 18 (was stated =18 in an early strip, I don't know if ), do we have anything else justifying ≥19 or ≥20? I'll check to see if he could have raised an ability score between then and now, anyone know offhand where that is in the books?

This is definitely wrong, it says he doesn't have any fifth-level spells.

Right on all counts. I fixed the stats. I also listed Roy as alive and in possession of a towel.

Wrecan

2009-06-25, 06:36 PM

I also updated the reference for V's non-evil status. V has taken a "turn towards Evil", which indicates V is not yet evil, but certainly closer to it than V used to be.

Random832

2009-06-25, 06:41 PM

I also listed Roy as alive and in possession of a towel.

Some people are saying that's V's cloak. Though... even if so, V may not be wanting it back.

Hey, is it really necessary to mention favored class for everyone, when of the non-humans, only :vaarsuvius: has any levels in his/her favored class (and likely has no intention of multiclassing anyway)

:thog: is multiclassed and has levels in his favored class, but Chrismith's post doesn't mention it.

Douglas

2009-06-25, 07:10 PM

Right on all counts. I fixed the stats.
No, it's not. Elan gained two 5th level spells known and one 4th. The only way that can happen is at Bard level 13 with enough charisma to have a bonus 5th level spell slot. The minimum 20 and source were correct. Only the parenthetical note was wrong - it should be "(to gain the 5th level bonus spell slot required to have 5th level spells known at this level)".

Random832

2009-06-25, 07:13 PM

No, it's not. Elan gained two 5th level spells known and one 4th. The only way that can happen is at Bard level 13 with enough charisma to have a bonus 5th level spell slot. The minimum 20 and source were correct.

:smalleek: You're right; I read the bonus spell table wrong!

I think this puts Cha = 20, because it's already stretching to say he's raised it twice since it was 18. That may have to be some sort of Dashing Swordsman feat we never heard about. (maybe still just put minimum 20 - Haley could have been wrong or outdated, after all.)

Q. Wait a minute. Cure Serious Wounds is only a third-level spell on the clerical spell list. And since it was Durkon's scroll and Durkon is a cleric, wouldn't that mean Belkar only needed a 13 Wisdom, which means a 9 Wisdom before Vaarsuvius cast Owl's Wisdom?
A. No. Scrolls have no class listed. You use the level of the spell on the caster's spell list. Cure Serious Wounds is a 4th level Ranger spell.

Are you sure about this? My reading of the rules, between the use of the phrase "Scroll's Caster Level" and the explanation of why the random scroll table uses Cleric and Wizard levels; is that scrolls DO have a class, just all randomly generated divine scrolls are created by clerics (or druids, if the levels are the same) and all randomly generated arcane scrolls are created by sorcerers or wizards (since the other classes "typically don’t involve themselves in scribing scrolls").

Tingel

2009-06-26, 04:33 AM

:durkon:Durkon Thundershield
Skills (≥31): Heal ≥1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html)
I don't see how the provided link proves the rank in Heal.

Wrecan

2009-06-26, 07:47 AM

Are you sure about this?
Yes. It's been debated ad nauseum.

I fixed Elan's Charisma. I don't know how we know Durkon has ranks in heal, but there is something. That was a just a mislink. I'm not sure I know the proper link though.

baerdith

2009-06-26, 10:04 AM

Yes. It's been debated ad nauseum.

I fixed Elan's Charisma. I don't know how we know Durkon has ranks in heal, but there is something. That was a just a mislink. I'm not sure I know the proper link though.

SOMEONE had to bind Elan's hand. Belkar and Durkon are the only ones with Heal one their class list......can YOU see Belkar taking Heal??

Illven

2009-06-26, 10:52 AM

Shouldn't the soul splice be removed from V's list of abilities

Borris

2009-06-26, 10:55 AM

But the Heal skill can be used untrained. Anyone (except Elan himself) could have made that bandage. And Durkon certainly has a high enough Wisdom score to have a decent Heal modifier without any ranks in the skill.

Borris

2009-06-26, 11:38 AM

In Strip 429 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0429.html), we see Durkon casting a Greater Dispel Magic to remove Xykon's Greater Invisibility. This puts an upper limit on Xykon's level. Given that it's impossible to dispel a spell by a caster more than 9 levels above you, if we take Durkon to have been the same level as the rest of the party during the siege of Azure City (i.e. level 13), then Xykon's caster level cannot have been more than 22, so that the DC to dispel would be 33, the best Durkon could have gotten on his caster level check. Sure, Xykon could have gained level since, but how plausible is that. Elan, who's been fighting orc and sea trolls much of that time (in addition to the Azure City siege itself) has gained a single level. And Xyon apparently never left Azure City. It takes a lot more XP for a 21+ character to level up, and anything below CR 14 wouldn't give him a signle point of experience. I'd thus write down Xykon's level as Sorcerer 21-22.

Speaking of Xykon again. Look at what Redcloak says in pannel 6 of Strip 431 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html).
"The idea was, the real Xykon would sneak into the castle, kill everyone there and animate them as zombies. Summon a few monsters for flavor and boom, we've opened up a second front behind the defenders." (emphasis mine)
Unless Xykon is carrying a Summon Monster scroll (which he's never used, even though that likely could have helped in the throne room), this implies that he knows at least one of the various Summon Monster spells.

Wrecan

2009-06-26, 11:43 AM

I've removed the soul splice from V's possessions

luxgladius

2009-06-26, 03:10 PM

Does Roy's entry currently reflect the level he lost from being resurrected? That's going to be tough on him. With the amount of adventuring everybody did while he was out, he probably is going to be two levels below his group for a while.

Wrecan

2009-06-26, 08:51 PM

Does Roy's entry currently reflect the level he lost from being resurrected?

Yes it does.

Forealms

2009-06-26, 09:15 PM

Random832

2009-06-26, 09:40 PM

Not necessarily true, but it could be. If Rich uses the system where, regardless of DC or bonuses, a natural 20 automatically succeeds and a natural 1 automatically fails, Durkon could have just rolled a natural 20 to dispel.

what do you mean "the system where"? RAW has lots of d20 rolls where a natural 20 automatically succeeds and a natural 1 automatically fails (most notably, attack rolls and saving throws); dispel checks aren't one of them.

(My point is, "Roll d20+bonus against DC" is not a single rule for which a single interpretation on the 20 vs 1 question is provided, as you seem to think it is)

baerdith

2009-06-26, 09:54 PM

Yet another "But, but Durkon cast GDM!!!"

The thing is, Rich could have a house rule about DM. The fact is that with the abilities Xykon is SHOWN using the most plausible, easiest answer taking Occam's 12 gauge shotgun into accounts is that X is AT LEAST 26th level, more likely 28th or 29th or even low to mid 30s depending on whether he made a ring of immunity or resistance........

Chronos

2009-06-26, 10:03 PM

The simplest way to explain the dispel without houserules is to assume that Xykon cast the Greater Invisibility from a scroll. Assuming that he didn't pay extra for higher caster level, that'd make Durkon's Dispel check an auto-success, and it also resolves the question of why a sorcerer would bother learning both Invisibility and Greater Invisibility.

EDIT: Wait, not an auto-success on the dispel check, but still more likely than not, and certainly possible.

Thunderbuckets

2009-06-26, 10:04 PM

Kurald Galain

2009-06-27, 04:48 AM

The thing is, Rich could have a house rule about DM. The fact is that with the abilities Xykon is SHOWN using the most plausible,

That is simply false. We have two bits of evidence, (1) durkon dispelled him, and (2) he claims to be immune to fire.

According to (1) Xykon has a maximum level. According to (2) if we assume that "immunity" means he has that epic ring, which is NOT a given he has a minimum. Neither is more plausible than the other, except that one of them is based on an assumption and the other is not.

silvadel

2009-06-27, 11:46 AM

I think we can give Belkar back his >=14 from 13. Even on the off chance that he failed his saving throw against level drain, he could and would be restored now that he is reunited with Durkon.

RMS Oceanic

2009-06-27, 11:47 AM

I think we can give Belkar back his >=14 from 13. Even on the off chance that he failed his saving throw against level drain, he could and would be restored now that he is reunited with Durkon.

But when you fail the will save against level drain, you lose that level forever, and have to regain it through the use of XP and whatnot.

Blue Ghost

2009-06-27, 12:00 PM

Greater restoration can restore levels that were drained up to one week per caster level ago. So, provided that it has not been 13 weeks since Haley and Belkar left Azure City, Durkon can restore the level.

Dark Matter

2009-06-27, 05:42 PM

That is simply false. We have two bits of evidence, (1) durkon dispelled him, and (2) he claims to be immune to fire.

According to (1) Xykon has a maximum level. According to (2) if we assume that "immunity" means he has that epic ring, which is NOT a given he has a minimum. Neither is more plausible than the other, except that one of them is based on an assumption and the other is not.Add to that...
1) Still M.Swarm.
2) Maximized Energy Drain.
3) Superb Dispelling (Spell Craft 59).
4) Cloister (unknown Spell Craft level but probably large).

None of these things is consistent with a "Maximum" level matching Durkon's Dispel (i.e. level 21). All of these are spells we actually *saw* Xykon cast (unlike the Greater Invis which we didn't). I think we have to assume either a natural 20 always works or that Xykon used a scroll... and that Xykon is in the high 20's (or low 30's).

Note this matches the SOD timeline better too. He was AT LEAST level 19 when he became a Lich (he might have already have been epic even then)... and that was 27 years ago.

Klivian

2009-06-27, 05:49 PM

Add to that...
1) Still M.Swarm.
2) Maximized Energy Drain.
3) Superb Dispelling (Spell Craft 59).
4) Cloister (unknown Spell Craft level but probably large).

None of these things is consistent with a "Maximum" level matching Durkon's Dispel (i.e. level 21). All of these are spells we actually *saw* Xykon cast (unlike the Greater Invis which we didn't). I think we have to assume either a natural 20 always works or that Xykon used a scroll... and that Xykon is in the high 20's (or low 30's).

Note this matches the SOD timeline better too. He was AT LEAST level 19 when he became a Lich (he might have already have been epic even then)... and that was 27 years ago.

Cloister doesn't give us much to go on, given that we see Xykon put on a magic headband that he acquired from Dorukan, which is implied to be linked to the Cloister spell. Perhaps it functions as a bonus to the spellcraft check, or as a magic device like a wand that casts it for the user.

Dark Matter

2009-06-27, 06:01 PM

Cloister doesn't give us much to go on, given that we see Xykon put on a magic headband that he acquired from Dorukan, which is implied to be linked to the Cloister spell. Perhaps it functions as a bonus to the spellcraft check, or as a magic device like a wand that casts it for the user.Or if you really want to you could give it a very low SpellCraft. But the other three (and Xykon talking about that ring) hit the radar as Rich just stomping all over us thinking Xykon was level 21.

Kurald Galain

2009-06-27, 07:34 PM

Note this matches the SOD timeline better too. He was AT LEAST level 19 when he became a Lich (he might have already have been epic even then)... and that was 27 years ago.

And that is why, in the initial battle against the Order of the Stick, he spent several rounds casting magic missiles...

RMS Oceanic

2009-06-27, 07:43 PM

And that is why, in the initial battle against the Order of the Stick, he spent several rounds casting magic missiles...

I thought he was casting Magic Missile because he's playing the part of the Card Carrying Villain, and going easy on them. Remember how he behaves in #653, where he admits to pulling out all the stops to answer the challenge to his arcane might.

Deuce

2009-06-27, 09:42 PM

And that is why, in the initial battle against the Order of the Stick, he spent several rounds casting magic missiles...

I was under the impression he needed them to be alive long enough to touch the Gate. Meteor Swarms would have ended the fight, but I don't think a Zombified Elan or Roy touching the Gate would have helped much.

Dark Matter

2009-06-27, 10:02 PM

And that is why, in the initial battle against the Order of the Stick, he spent several rounds casting magic missiles...Why shouldn't he? He's roughly 3 times their level (maybe exactly three times), they're NOT a threat to him, he wastes a few rounds casting his "worst" spell just to see what would happen, i.e. whether or not any of them would change their minds and touch the gate anyway...

...and they don't. So, he might as well admit he lost, game over, time to kill the heroes and wait for the next adventuring party. He might be 20+ levels greater than they are, he's not going to get any experience no matter what he does, so it's a question of what would be the most entertaining way to kill them (i.e. bring out the MoD). Instead Roy manages to one punch him.

But none of this changes 27 years ago Xykon was able to cast at LEAST Energy Drain and Soul Bind thus putting him at level 19+. Further, given he'd been an adventurer for 50-ish years, and he started at level 8+, even level 19 seems like a seriously low estimate. (EDIT: 68 years, not 50)

So 27 years later he's at level 21 and then 6 months after that he's tossing around 10th and 12th level spells? IMHO it's a lot easier to think that Durkon got lucky. Natural 20, or Xykon had a scroll, but when Durkon cast G.Dispell magic that wasn't against a level 21 Lich.

RMS Oceanic

2009-06-29, 11:42 AM

Roy now has his armor and boots back.

Wrecan

2009-06-29, 12:40 PM

Yep! Updated.

Spiryt

2009-06-29, 01:37 PM

I think I may join the Geekery for a while :smallbiggrin:

On the first page, it's calculated that Roy has a medium armor.

Now, we can assume that it's probably a breastplate.

At least judging from SRD/Handbook only - Scale armour, as depicted in PHB (armor made from small plates sewn to some layer) would be quite a bit flexible (http://www.cohorte.de/Roemerzeit/lorica%20squamata.jpg)
Let alone a mail.

And Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html) is polishing it like that, without much support, so we can assume it's stiff.

The problem with this theory is lamellar armour (http://wojmir.pl/lamelkistal.htm) which is stiff, and would probably pass as scale in D&D terms. (And of course scale made from bigger plates would be stiffer as well, but still a bit flexible).

Still, standard D&D scale is different.

Let's bite this theory.

EDIT: a small update. :smallamused:

EmperorSarda

2009-06-29, 06:28 PM

Xykon hasn't been updated to have the Superb Dispelling spell.

RMS Oceanic

2009-06-30, 12:35 AM

Chrismith hasn't posted on the boards since December or so.

Mc. Lovin'

2009-06-30, 04:45 PM

Eh we're nearly on 50 pages anyway, some other geek should take over (geek eing used in the non derogitary sense there :smalltongue:)

Dark Matter

2009-07-01, 07:33 AM

Do these things die or get locked at 50?

RMS Oceanic

2009-07-01, 07:53 AM

I think technically they can go on indefinately, but it's customary to stop it at 50 and start a new thread.

Wrecan

2009-07-01, 09:15 AM

Agreed. That's what we did the last few iterations

Illven

2009-07-02, 07:21 PM

Is someone going to take over for Chrismith

RMS Oceanic

2009-07-02, 11:59 PM

I don't think it's possible for anyone to edit his posts, so it would have to be during the next thread. I could do it.

BobVosh

2009-07-03, 12:07 AM

Do these things die or get locked at 50?

Mods lock em at 50. Some have made it to 60 or so simply because how fast people post.

Raenir Salazar

2009-07-06, 07:49 PM

why is that?

kenb215

2009-07-06, 09:40 PM

Technical reasons. Larger threads are harder on the server so threads are closed before they can become a problem.

RMS Oceanic

2009-07-09, 03:32 AM

Judging by the dialogue both here and in 664, I think this is significant evidence that V is right on the line between Evil and Neutral right now. Would that be significant enough to note?

Wrecan

2009-07-09, 07:03 AM

All it means is they think V will eventually turn evil. That's not really a stat that can be listed.

Jonathan327

2009-07-09, 01:33 PM

Would Roy need points in Craft: Armor to get his armor back into shape, as he mentioned he'd be working on overnight in 666?

Wrecan

2009-07-09, 02:00 PM

Doubtful. The DC for repairing armor is 10+AC bonus of the armor. His armor is probably breastplate, making the DC 15. A 200 gp breastplat costs 4000 cp to repair (assuming it's not masterwork). Roy is 13th level, meaning he has a maximum of 8 ranks in Craft (it's a cross-class skill for fighters). Give him a generous +4 for Intelligence, Masterwork artisan tools (+2), Skill Focus (+3) and a natural 20 on the roll, and he can't expect higher than a 37 on the Craft check. That's 555 cp with a DC 15 check. If he increases the DC to 35, it's a maximum 1,295 cp of repairs. He'll need a week to repair that armor, if it actually needs repairing.

So, in short, I think it's pretty clear that Roy isn't repairing his armor to "get this back into usable condition". Chances are he's just talking about getting the dirt and grime off of it.

Also, it's important to note that any repairs could be made by Vaarsuvius with a Prestidigitation cantrip or Durkon with a Mending spell. I think Roy is choosing to polish his armor to sort of get back in the groove of being able to handle things now that his hands don't pass through matter. I don't think it indicates rules.

RMS Oceanic

2009-07-09, 02:11 PM

Wrecan

2009-07-09, 02:34 PM

According to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/Classes/fighter.htm) you are wrong about Craft being cross-class for a fighter, so Roy could easily have 15 ranks in Craft (armorsmithing).

However, I agree with you that he's most likely cleaning it.

Dang! You're right.

Okay. So his maximum Craft check goes up to 44! That's a 660 cp at DC 15 and 1,540 cp at DC 35. He was working alone, but if he convinces someone to Aid Another, his roll could conceivably go to 46, and he could up the DC to 45 for 2,070 cp of repairs. Still far short of what he would need.

So I think it's pretty clear that Roy's armor is not in need of actual repairs.

Deuce

2009-07-09, 02:48 PM

So, in short, I think it's pretty clear that Roy isn't repairing his armor to "get this back into usable condition". Chances are he's just talking about getting the dirt and grime off of it.

Dirt, grime and, well, him.

Also, it's important to note that any repairs could be made by Vaarsuvius with a Prestidigitation cantrip or Durkon with a Mending spell. I think Roy is choosing to polish his armor to sort of get back in the groove of being able to handle things now that his hands don't pass through matter. I don't think it indicates rules.

I think it's pretty much a given that when a "Man (or Woman) of Action" needs some time to think and work through issues, they clean or service the tools of their trade. I could probably find something on the TV Tropes page, but I won't.

Kurald Galain

2009-07-09, 04:02 PM

Doubtful. The DC for repairing armor is 10+AC bonus of the armor. His armor is probably breastplate, making the DC 15. A 200 gp breastplat costs 4000 cp to repair (assuming it's not masterwork).

I don't think we can assume it's not masterwork, just like that. Many of the common items used by the Order have turned out to be magical in the past, such as Haley's bow. So though we can't just conclude that Roy's armor is magical, neither can we conclude that it isn't.

Random832

2009-07-09, 04:13 PM

Yeah, we have to remember these are level 12+ characters. I'd almost doubt any of their equipment is basic - we already know they have good bonuses on their weapons (Roy +5 plus whatever the green glowy-ness is worth, Elan +4, Haley +7, Belkar's are at least described as "magic"), so it's not hard to believe they'd also have Masterwork and/or +N armor.

Olorin Maia

2009-07-09, 04:22 PM

Please, remind me how Haley's bow is +7? I thought it was just +5 breath of icy freshness, or something.

RMS Oceanic

2009-07-09, 04:23 PM

Icy Freshness is basically the Icy Burst ability, a +2 ability.

Wrecan

2009-07-09, 04:45 PM

I don't think we can assume it's not masterwork, just like that.
I didn't mean I was assuming it wasn't masterwork for all purposes. I meant, I was assuming it wasn't masterwork just for the mental exercise of determine whether it was possible Roy might be able to repair his armor using Craft.

If we assume Roy's armor is masterwork, the time it would take Roy to repair armor would increase significantly, making it even less likely Roy was talking about Crafting his armor back into shape.

Many of the common items used by the Order have turned out to be magical in the past, such as Haley's bow. So though we can't just conclude that Roy's armor is magical, neither can we conclude that it isn't.
Agreed. We have no evidence either way.

Olorin Maia

2009-07-09, 04:49 PM

Roy is 13th level, meaning he has a maximum of 8 ranks in Craft

Here, you say that Roy is level 13, but on the front page it still says 12. Is that just not updated yet, or is 13 a working number thats higher than his actual level in order to make your point?

baerdith

2009-07-09, 08:09 PM

Some thoughts on Roy based on class reqs, observed and wealth guidelines
This would leave in the neighborhood of 20K for Roy's wealth to use...

Thoughts??

Climb 16
Craft 16
Intimidate 8
Jump 1
Knowledge Arcana 5
Knowledge Dungeoneering 5
Ride 1
Spellcraft 5

Armor Proficiency Heavy, Medieum, Light
Cleave
Combat Expertise
Combat Reflexes
Endurance
Great Cleave
Greater Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
Greater Weapon Specialization (Greatsword)
Martial Weapon Proficiency
Power Attack
Quick Draw
Shield proficiency
Simpe Weapon Proficiency
Weapon Focus (Greatclub)
Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
Weapon Specialization (Greatclub)
Weapon Specialization (Greatsword)

Gauntlets of Ogre Power
+2 Breastplate
Bag of Tricks
+5 Undeadbane Greatsword

+5 Greatsword(Bane)
+23/+18/+13 - 2d6+13 - 19-20(x2)

Wrecan

2009-07-09, 08:26 PM

Here, you say that Roy is level 13, but on the front page it still says 12. Is that just not updated yet, or is 13 a working number thats higher than his actual level in order to make your point?

That was a typo. I should have said 12.

baerdith

2009-07-13, 11:43 PM

any comments on my Roy list Wrecan?

RMS Oceanic

2009-07-14, 01:18 AM

Olorin Maia

2009-07-14, 01:50 AM

On the first page, in your first post, the link on Durkon's
Abilities: +1 v orcs and goblinoids, is broken.

Also, how did you calculate that Roy is level 12? (A simple page number on this thread is totally cool.) I assumed that he would be 13 after his resurrection penalty.

Wrecan

2009-07-14, 06:54 AM

Roy was 13th level when he died. Everyone else has leveled up, but he leveled down. It's in the FAQ.

SinsI

2009-07-14, 04:01 PM

Intimidate, Ride 1... No Bluff or Sense Motive.

I think we should indicate lack of certain skills in the beginning of the comic not as a precise number, but as

Ride >=1, Bluff >=0, Sense Motive >=0

- the whole party had like 7 level ups to improve their riding skill(and they were actually shown riding horses and a dog).

Olorin Maia

2009-07-14, 04:05 PM

Cool, thanks. I should have looked more closely.

Lamech

2009-07-14, 04:07 PM

Hey, how exactly do we have V's level pinged at 14 and his int at 23? As opposed to 24 and 13? Its probably already been explained but I don't feel like searching for through the thread for an explanation.

He's an evoker so 1(normal)+1(bonus)+1(specialist) would be the number of 7th level spell slots at 13 right?

Jaltum

2009-07-14, 04:42 PM

- the whole party had like 7 level ups to improve their riding skill(and they were actually shown riding horses and a dog).

They haven't been shown riding since the first time, though, when Roy didn't have enough ranks to help Haley or V. (The Giant says in commentary that the horses were a pain, artistically, and that he switched to the carts the first chance he got. So odds are they never will again, either.)

EDIT: Or rather--they were shown riding out of Azure City, but then Elan reminded everyone that they didn't have the horses anymore, and they vanished. I guess, given that, they could have been wasting ranks on Ride for horses they forgot they didn't have.

Kurald Galain

2009-07-14, 05:22 PM

Hey, how exactly do we have V's level pinged at 14 and his int at 23?

Because his level was 13 in the battle for Azure City, and his teammates are known to have gained a level since then, and in the past all of the Order has levelled more or less at the same time.

Occam's Razor thus says that V's level is 14. Based on that, his int need not be more than 23.

Lamech

2009-07-14, 06:29 PM

Because his level was 13 in the battle for Azure City, and his teammates are known to have gained a level since then, and in the past all of the Order has levelled more or less at the same time.

Occam's Razor thus says that V's level is 14. Based on that, his int need not be more than 23.

Yeah Elan is 14, but he just got that level after the Kubuto incident. And V is probably a bit behind because he was always sitting under the deck of the boat researching and what not. (Although he probably got a crap ton from the pit fiend, so probably not.)

It doesn't mesh with what is posted for Durkon though.

baerdith

2009-07-14, 06:47 PM

I dunno, a lot of your list is based on speculation. Where do the ranks in climb come from? During the Wooden Forest, Roy specifically says he can't use the Weapon Specific feats on his club in a bonus strip. And where has he shown to have quick draw?

Yes it is a bit of speculation. The ranks in climb come from #51 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0051.html) his knowlege arcana and spellcraft comes from his explict knowledge in comic where he describes spells and their effects, his knowledge dungeons comes from his knowleges in comic of the way the dungeons work, Quicdraw was the only fighter feat left. The feats for the club was an assumption on my part for why Roy would choose to use one rather than a magic sword... (I know ass-u-me). (I didn't see the bonus strip....)

RMS Oceanic

2009-07-15, 07:49 AM

Hey, how exactly do we have V's level pinged at 14 and his int at 23?

It comes from h** fight with Qarr and the Black Dragon. Throughout these two battles, he casts Grasping Hand (7th level spell), Disintegrate (6th) four times, Prismatic Spray (7th) and Forcecage (7th). Since Disintegrate is a transmutation spell, (s)he must have at least four non-specialist level 6 spell slots. This is first possible at level 14 with an int of at least 22. The fact that (s)he then proceeded to cast h** level 7 spells highly reduces the possibility that (s)he used a 7th level slot to cast a Disintegrate.

Yes it is a bit of speculation.

That's a problem, because this thread only takes what has been explicitly stated or logically worked out. For example, I figured #599 suggested Vaarsuvius had Overland Flight, because it was unlikely (s)he would use Fly for cross-ocean travel. "Unlikely" doesn't meet the burden of proof, however, so it isn't in V's list.

Lamech

2009-07-15, 09:22 AM

It comes from h** fight with Qarr and the Black Dragon. Throughout these two battles, he casts Grasping Hand (7th level spell), Disintegrate (6th) four times, Prismatic Spray (7th) and Forcecage (7th). Since Disintegrate is a transmutation spell, (s)he must have at least four non-specialist level 6 spell slots. This is first possible at level 14 with an int of at least 22. The fact that (s)he then proceeded to cast h** level 7 spells highly reduces the possibility that (s)he used a 7th level slot to cast a Disintegrate.

Thank You.:smallsmile:

OmegaDonut

2009-07-15, 09:11 PM

Not that it matters much now, but...

Miko didn't buy the entire list of available mundane equipment, but she did have a 10-foot pole (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0373.html) somewhere on her person.

Also known to carry tanglefoot bags. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html)

EDIT: Oh wait, Sapphire Guard stuff is all in Chrismith's post, and that hasn't been updated since March.

Kish

2009-07-15, 09:55 PM

She said she didn't have a 10-foot pole, not that she did.

Thunderbuckets

2009-07-17, 01:15 PM

This one's a small thing, but based on the first panel of #669 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html), can we assume the Roy's possessions include a bedroll?

...for that matter, bedrolls are missing from most of the Order's inventories. I suppose Vaarsuvius doesn't need one, and Elan hasn't been shown sleeping on one since his gear was stripped around #387 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html).

However, Haley and Belkar are shown to have bedrolls in #573 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0573.html)... in fact, so is Celia, which is proof that the bedroll in 669 is not hers, since the two are different colors. And Durkon... he had one waaay back in #16 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html), but he hasn't had an equipment strippage since then, so that probably counts unless anyone's got a more recent example.

Just my thoughts.

Wrecan

2009-07-17, 06:02 PM

Excellent call!

Needle

2009-07-18, 12:48 PM

Just asking...

Doesn't this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html) tell us Belkar has Scent from some source we don't know? Or this is part of Track/Survival?

Because, if it were so obvious, Haley would've never fall or so.

I just don't know :smallredface:

derfenrirwolv

2009-07-18, 12:54 PM

Scent can be taken by half orcs and gnomes according to the DMG, at the DM's option.

RMS Oceanic

2009-07-18, 12:59 PM

I think the Giant said once that Halflings had a homebrewed enhanced sense of smell and taste, which may give them a circumstance bonus on spot checks to overcome disguises.

Needle

2009-07-18, 01:04 PM

I see, well, idk if Halfling would be ok or not, I don't wanna get brainy bout races lol, but Half Orc definitely needs one or two more thingies... Whenever I see the PH and their races, I feel pity for Half-Orcs :smallfrown:

Thx both for the reply ^^

Fitzclowningham

2009-07-20, 10:19 PM

If Roy is 12th level, he'll have to wait at least two levels before getting the chance to get his grandfather's feat. His next fighter bonus feat is at 14. I wonder if this indicates that Rich has a lot more story in him.

Needle

2009-07-20, 10:42 PM

Maybe it'll be a "history reward"? :smallconfused: Or well, like you said, he must win two levels before that, probably, after whatever happens against Linear

RMS Oceanic

2009-07-24, 11:30 AM

If we take O-Chul's list at face value, we can add Resiliant Sphere, Greater Teleport, Contingency, and maybe Epic Mage Armor to Xykon's spell list.

EDIT: Also, Roy has his sword back. In fact, I think it's safe to assume he's regained all his possessions.

Chronos

2009-07-24, 12:07 PM

We already knew about Resilient Sphere, since he used that on Eugene while he murdered Fyron. And we knew that he had some sort of teleportation spell, since he commented when he couldn't use it to get back into his tower. The epic spell is a new one, but it looks more like "epic mass" something than "epic mage's" something, to me.

RMS Oceanic

2009-07-24, 12:13 PM

Looking at the 'g' in Energy Drain and the character after 'a', they look like the same thing. Besides, the only "Epic Ma" spell in the SRD is Epic Mage Armor.

It's not conclusive, but I think it makes sense.

Hurkyl

2009-07-24, 12:19 PM

The fourth level spells include Gre--- and Sto---. Confirms greater invisibility. My guess is stone shaping for the other, given that he raised his tower from the ground.

Random832

2009-07-24, 02:20 PM

Online sources are preferable, right? Then some of the refs to SOD on his other spells should be changed to link to this comic.

Olorin93

2009-07-24, 02:46 PM

I think O'Chul's list is The Giant's nod to this ongoing thread. And thus confirming that O'Chul is the coolest geek ever.

Porthos

2009-07-24, 02:55 PM

The fourth level spells include Gre--- and Sto---. Confirms greater invisibility. My guess is stone shaping for the other, given that he raised his tower from the ground.

Stoneskin, is a fairly likely possibility I would think. :smallsmile:

Nahmer

2009-07-24, 05:23 PM

RMS Oceanic

2009-07-24, 05:46 PM

Given that Xykon has at least 3 epic spells on O'Chul's list, it is now confirmed that Xykon is at least Level 27.

I had assumed that he used an epic spell to create his tower - after all, Tsukiko describes it as an accursed tower wrenched from unhallowed ground with dark magic. Its construction certainly seems beyond the limits of Stone shape and and Greater Stone Shape. I'd peg it as a variation on Raise Island crossed with Secure Shelter. If so, he could have named the spell Epic Mage's Mansion.

Of course, I'm probably over-thinking this and his third Epic Spell is simply Epic Mage Armor. On the other hand, if he had Epic Mage Armor he'd probably have used it in previous battles (what with its 24 hour duration), and he's been hit too easily (by Roy and the Sapphire Guard) for that to be the case.

You're missing an important fact about Xykon: he likes to play with the good guys. He holds back, and generally toys with them before wrapping things up in a single stroke. It takes something like a direct challenge to his arcane mojo, or his continued existance, for him to pull out the stops.

And before you mention Soon being the latter sort of threat, Xykon didn't really panic about the fight until Soon revealed he knew about the phylactery, and then Xykon's first priority became getting it to safety, a window of opportunity Soon used to incapacitate him.

Another alternative is that he didn't learn the spell until after the Battle.

Douglas

2009-07-24, 06:12 PM

Given that Xykon has at least 3 epic spells on O'Chul's list, it is now confirmed that Xykon is at least Level 27.
How so? A level 21 sorcerer could theoretically have 10,000 epic spells known if he had the time and resources to develop them all. Ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) only determine epic spells per day, not epic spells known.

tyckspoon

2009-07-24, 06:14 PM

Given that Xykon has at least 3 epic spells on O'Chul's list, it is now confirmed that Xykon is at least Level 27.

Not necessarily. You can learn as many Epic spells as you feel like as soon as you take Epic Spellcasting. You need more ranks in Knowledges (and hence more levels) to get more Epic slots to cast them- it works the same way pre-Epic spell slots do, just with a different system for filling the 'spellbook'. Xykon could have a dozen different Epic spells and O-Chul would have no way of knowing about them unless something happened to convince Xykon to prepare them. Although I do think he probably picked up Epic Mage Armor as a direct result of being beat up by Soon, and his normal daily Epic slots are most likely Epic Mage Armor (cast) and Superb Dispelling just in case an epically-powered Elf pops out of the ferns again. Cloister is a relative non-concern, as it only needs periodic maintenance castings.

Hurkyl

2009-07-24, 06:20 PM

Stoneskin, is a fairly likely possibility I would think. :smallsmile:
True. But I wouldn't have posted if I was going to cast my vote for the 'obvious' choice. :smallsmile:

ericgrau

2009-07-25, 03:20 PM

A zoom in on the text and a comparison of Epic ma_ to other letters shows that the _ letter is much more similar to a g than an s, though this is not certain. That strongly suggests "mage" or "magic", such as the Epic mage armor suggested.

I think Greater _______y almost confirms Greater Invisibility as a 4th level spell. Plus greater invisibility is the only 4th level "greater" spell assuming it's not a custom spell (quite likely). EDIT: This also means Xykon is within 9 levels of Durkon as of the Azure City battle, unless Rich made an understandable mistake on Durkon's greater dispel magic.

Stoneskin and Stone Shape seem like the only two core 4th level possibilities for the Sto-. But if you'll look down a bit you'll notice that there isn't much room left on the edge of the page and the next line starts the 5th level spells. So only Stoneskin would fit.

One of the 3rd level spells clearly has a "p" in it, which seems to be between two other letters. There are several 3rd level spells with a "p" in them but only a few with a p in the middle of a word: Dispel Magic, Explosive Runes, Sepia Snake Sigil, Displacement and Vampiric Touch. Vampiric Touch seems to match the surrounding letter fragments much better than any of the other options and makes a lot of sense since it's a necromancy spell. Plus "T" is one of the few letters that sticks out just a little below the bottom of the line at just one point (as seen at the edge of the talk bubble). "S", "M", "R" and the lower case letters do not.

On the 3rd level list there's a letter that's unlike any of the others in the text. It looks like a capital "L" to me, unless you can think of any other letter with such a sharp bend in it (we know it's not "D" because of the other "D"s). The only option would then be Lightning Bolt, and we already know Xykon has that spell. EDIT: E and B are also not possible b/c of the other curvy E and curvy B we see.

RMS Oceanic

2009-07-25, 03:59 PM

Wow that's some in depth forensic analysis.

It looks like on your spot check...

*Glasses*

...you rolled a 20.

YEEEEEEAH!

baerdith

2009-07-28, 03:01 PM

Not necessarily. You can learn as many Epic spells as you feel like as soon as you take Epic Spellcasting. You need more ranks in Knowledges (and hence more levels) to get more Epic slots to cast them- it works the same way pre-Epic spell slots do, just with a different system for filling the 'spellbook'. Xykon could have a dozen different Epic spells and O-Chul would have no way of knowing about them unless something happened to convince Xykon to prepare them. Although I do think he probably picked up Epic Mage Armor as a direct result of being beat up by Soon, and his normal daily Epic slots are most likely Epic Mage Armor (cast) and Superb Dispelling just in case an epically-powered Elf pops out of the ferns again. Cloister is a relative non-concern, as it only needs periodic maintenance castings.

You also have to factor in that to cast those two per day X had to have At Least 40 ranks in Kn. Arcana (slot = Kn arc/2) AS well as the Metamagiced spells with the req. epic slots
Additionally X had to have At least 46 ranks in Spellcraft for E Mage Armor, and at least 56 for Superb Dispelling (looking back X would most likely NOT have created a dispel spell that had backlash - and none was shown- so make that 66)

Without some MAJOR wonky items that X isn't show using, 27+ seems the most plausible.

baerdith

2009-07-29, 11:29 PM

Not that we have any way to update, but Lien and Ochul have 'gained a few levels...'

Ochul = F10/Pl5?

RMS Oceanic

2009-07-30, 01:15 AM

You also have to factor in that to cast those two per day X had to have At Least 40 ranks in Kn. Arcana (slot = Kn arc/2) AS well as the Metamagiced spells with the req. epic slots
Additionally X had to have At least 46 ranks in Spellcraft for E Mage Armor, and at least 56 for Superb Dispelling (looking back X would most likely NOT have created a dispel spell that had backlash - and none was shown- so make that 66)

Without some MAJOR wonky items that X isn't show using, 27+ seems the most plausible.

Your claim of requiring 40 ranks for the two spell slots is incorrect.

Epic Spell Slots
A character must have an available epic spell slot to prepare or cast an epic spell, just as he or she needs a normal spell slot for a nonepic spell. A character doesn’t gain epic spell slots by virtue of his or her level and class, however. A character gets one epic spell slot for every 10 ranks he or she has in the relevant Knowledge skill.

Also, we don't know what backlash looks like, so it doesn't make sense to say Xykon developed a spell with the same name as one in the SRD but a different effect. All we know is that he knows the spell. We don't know how he reaches the spellcraft necessary for it, but he knows the spell.

baerdith

2009-07-30, 08:24 AM

Your claim of requiring 40 ranks for the two spell slots is incorrect.

But not for the FOUR slots needed....

Also, we don't know what backlash looks like, so it doesn't make sense to say Xykon developed a spell with the same name as one in the SRD but a different effect. All we know is that he knows the spell. We don't know how he reaches the spellcraft necessary for it, but he knows the spell.

Well since backlash is damage, (10d6 damage) there should be SOMETHING visible on X..

As far as HOW... gee, 27th level or 21st with really wonky charisma item, eally wonky intellect item, really wonky spellcraft item, really wonky metamagic item....

Hmm Occam's 12 gauge shotgun says the likely way is X is At Least 27th level.

Douglas

2009-07-30, 08:38 AM

But not for the FOUR slots needed....
Four slots needed for what? Even if you assume he casts Epic Mage Armor every day, the most epic spells we've ever seen Xykon cast in one day is just two - the usual Epic Mage Armor plus one Superb Dispelling.

RMS Oceanic

2009-07-30, 08:44 AM

Four slots needed for what? Even if you assume he casts Epic Mage Armor every day, the most epic spells we've ever seen Xykon cast in one day is just two - the usual Epic Mage Armor plus one Superb Dispelling.

Point of order: We've only ever seen him cast one epic spell on any given day. However, given the requirements of Epic Spellcasting to have at least 24 ranks in Knowledge (Whichever), we know he has at least two epic spell slots.

baerdith

2009-07-30, 05:28 PM

Point of order: We've only ever seen him cast one epic spell on any given day. However, given the requirements of Epic Spellcasting to have at least 24 ranks in Knowledge (Whichever), we know he has at least two epic spell slots.

Point of order here. He cast Maximized Energy Drain, Still Meteor Swarm, and Superb Dispelling. If he cast Epic Mage Armor, (and why wouldn't he?) that is FOUR slots.

Now, you could say he has an invisible rod of maximizing, and an invisible shoe of stilling, and an invisible watch of spellcraft +30, and all this other wonky crap, but the simplist way to do what X has done is if he is greater than 27th level...

Zevox

2009-07-30, 05:35 PM

Point of order here. He cast Maximized Energy Drain, Still Meteor Swarm, and Superb Dispelling. If he cast Epic Mage Armor, (and why wouldn't he?) that is FOUR slots.
Maximized Energy Drain and Still Meteor Swarm are not epic spells. They are level 12 and 10 spells, respectively. There is a difference.

Level 10+ spells are just level 9 or below spells with metamagic applied to them. The slots for them are acquired via the feat Improved Spell Capacity and determined by the number of times you take that feat and how high your casting stat is.

Epic Spells are unique spells created via a specific system that can do just about anything if you design them right and you have enough spellcraft to cast them. Slots for them are acquired via the feat Epic Spellcasting and determined by the amount of Knowledge (Arcana, Nature, or Religion, depending on your class) that you have.

You cannot prepare a level 10+ spell in an Epic Spell slot, or vice-versa.

Zevox

baerdith

2009-07-30, 07:47 PM

Maximized Energy Drain and Still Meteor Swarm are not epic spells. They are level 12 and 10 spells, respectively. There is a difference.

Level 10+ spells are just level 9 or below spells with metamagic applied to them. The slots for them are acquired via the feat Improved Spell Capacity and determined by the number of times you take that feat and how high your casting stat is.

Epic Spells are unique spells created via a specific system that can do just about anything if you design them right and you have enough spellcraft to cast them. Slots for them are acquired via the feat Epic Spellcasting and determined by the amount of Knowledge (Arcana, Nature, or Religion, depending on your class) that you have.

You cannot prepare a level 10+ spell in an Epic Spell slot, or vice-versa.

Zevox

Yes but either way the point stands: X has to be at least 27th level to cast them. With ISC he would need to be at least 27. If treated as Epic he would need a lot of KnArcana ad would still need to be 27+

Zevox

2009-07-30, 07:55 PM

Yes but either way the point stands: X has to be at least 27th level to cast them. With ISC he would need to be at least 27. If treated as Epic he would need a lot of KnArcana ad would still need to be 27+
No. To cast 12th-level spells and epic spells both he needs 3 copies of Improved Spell Capacity, plus Epic Spellcasting. A straight Sorcerer can have that at level 26 (taking his four epic feats at levels 21, 23, 24, and 26), not 27. We've known this ever since he first cast Maximized Energy Drain. And some have argued that he can be lower than that if he had a Greater Rod of Maximize Spell or the non-core feat Sudden Maximize, though we have no actual evidence for either of those scenarios.

Zevox

baerdith

2009-07-30, 08:04 PM

No. To cast 12th-level spells and epic spells both he needs 3 copies of Improved Spell Capacity, plus Epic Spellcasting. A straight Sorcerer can have that at level 26 (taking his four epic feats at levels 21, 23, 24, and 26), not 27. We've known this ever since he first cast Maximized Energy Drain. And some have argued that he can be lower than that if he had a Greater Rod of Maximize Spell or the non-core feat Sudden Maximize, though we have no actual evidence for either of those scenarios.

Zevox

Oops Mea Culpa! forgot a bonus feat! 26 it is then....
But CERTAINLY NOT 21st with all the wonky stuff...

David Argall

2009-08-04, 02:06 PM

Under Miko, you have her listed as lower level than Hinjo, when she was higher level. [I suspect a copy-paste error. You likely used the same link for all the paladins and forgot that Miko was the exception.]

Needle

2009-08-08, 04:08 PM

I know about the 50 pages things, but, isn't it a great moment to start Class and Level Geekery V? specially since we have 3 weeks to make everything more beautiful and update the other characters/contact Chrismith :smalltongue:

Just a tought :smallredface:

Sstoopidtallkid

2009-08-17, 01:15 PM

What does 116 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0116.html) say about Haley's Str(she's lifting V without major difficulties)?

Wrecan

2009-08-18, 06:26 AM

What does 116 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0116.html) say about Haley's Str(she's lifting V without major difficulties)?

Nothing. We don't know how much V weighs (elves don't weigh much) and Haley can carry Belkar while running, which tells us more about her STrenght than carrying V.

Random832

2009-08-18, 09:07 AM

Nothing. We don't know how much V weighs

39 kg, which is anywhere between 85 and 88 lb depending on how the conversion was done.

and Haley can carry Belkar while running, which tells us more about her STrenght than carrying V.

Belkar weighs thirty pounds, according to Roy in an early strip. That's a light load even at STR 10.

(technically this is under the minimum for a halfling - he has to weigh at least 32. But the maximum is 38, which still kind of makes my point)

Wrecan

2009-08-18, 01:00 PM

39 kg, which is anywhere between 85 and 88 lb depending on how the conversion was done.
Yes, but we don't know if Haley was operating at her normal movement. She could have been taking 5 ft. steps around the room for all we know.

Sstoopidtallkid

2009-08-18, 11:16 PM

V's has 2 or more (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0181.html) ranks in Spellcraft.

Also, the Ring of Wizardry is lvl 3 or higher (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0182.html).

Wrecan

2009-08-19, 07:20 AM

V's has 2 or more (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0181.html) ranks in Spellcraft.

Also, the Ring of Wizardry is lvl 3 or higher (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0182.html).

V only needs 1 rank of Spellcraft to identify a Darkness spell in place. The DC is 22, and V gets at least a +4 to the roll from Intelligence. V likely has more, but doesn't need to have more.

In comic 182, V says V has "a Ring of Wizardry, no other spells higher than 3rd level prepared". The "other" only makes sense if the Ring is doubling V's 3rd level spell slots.

Sstoopidtallkid

2009-08-19, 10:31 PM

V only needs 1 rank of Spellcraft to identify a Darkness spell in place. The DC is 22, and V gets at least a +4 to the roll from Intelligence. V likely has more, but doesn't need to have more.I'd said that because V refers to "ranks", plural, but that doesn't seem conclusive on a rereading.
In comic 182, V says V has "a Ring of Wizardry, no other spells higher than 3rd level prepared". The "other" only makes sense if the Ring is doubling V's 3rd level spell slots.Or the higher level slots. But I'd posted that because it currently links to the comic where V is blowing up Belkar repeatedly with explosive runes, which seems less conclusive IMHO, especially since you currently make no mention of the fact that it can't be below 3rd level.

Brogen

2009-08-19, 11:08 PM

In the latest comic Roy has his great sword with him, it should be added to his items.

RMS Oceanic

2009-08-20, 12:29 AM

I would go one step further and assume Roy has retrieved all his possessions from Haley.

Wrecan

2009-08-20, 07:20 AM

Fair enough. I've amended V's Ring of Wizardry description and given Roy back his stuff. Haley, for now, is keeping the magical air freshener.

casper

2009-08-25, 03:05 PM

Just figured out, that Belkar's Wisdom score is probably 9 (if wasn't raised recently) - negative modifier, but if it was lower, even Owl's wisdom wouldn't make it 13 - high enough to use scroll of Cure serious wounds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html)

Almost sure that someone noticed that before, but in the first post for some reason it's still stated "Wis ≤9"...

Mc. Lovin'

2009-08-25, 04:38 PM

FAQ, sometimes the rules trump funny. In that case, it was obviously a punchline, but im pretty sure he says something contradictory in normal conversation. Oh yeah, when he's cooking those birds

EDIT: Just in case that wasn't very clear, Belkar states in a comic (linked to in Wrecan's FAQ) that he has a negative penalty to proffesion checks, something which uses wisdom. This newer comic trumps the older comics. Hope this helps :smallsmile:

Kish

2009-08-25, 05:02 PM

hamishspence

2009-08-26, 01:15 AM

While V refers to Belkar as having "a wisdom score usually reserved for lemmings" (and an intellect that could be unfavorably compared with a table) V is not exactly an authority on Belkar.

Wis 9 could work, mechanically- it would allow both the stat penalty, and still being raisable to a level where he can cast the spell.

Mc. Lovin'

2009-08-26, 06:09 AM

Q. In Comic 58 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html), Belkar uses a scroll of Cure Serious Wounds, which requires him to have a Wisdom of 14. Since Vaarsuvius cast Owl's Wisdom on him (which boosts your Wisdom by 4), he must have a Wisdom of 10. Why do you have him at less?
A. That comic was trumped by the more recent Comic 475 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) in which Belkar admits to having an Ability score penalty to Profession checks. Since Wisdom is the Ability that modified Profession, Belkar cannot have a Wisdom above 9. So we are ignoring Comic 58 as one of those times where "funny trumps rules."

Q. Wait a minute. Cure Serious Wounds is only a third-level spell on the clerical spell list. And since it was Durkon's scroll and Durkon is a cleric, wouldn't that mean Belkar only needed a 13 Wisdom, which means a 9 Wisdom before Vaarsuvius cast Owl's Wisdom?
A. No. Scrolls have no class listed. You use the level of the spell on the caster's spell list. Cure Serious Wounds is a 4th level Ranger spell.

It wouldn't be enough. These've been covered before

Kurald Galain

2009-08-26, 11:28 AM

It wouldn't be enough. These've been covered before

However, I should point out that this assertion is incorrect:

A. No. Scrolls have no class listed. You use the level of the spell on the caster's spell list. Cure Serious Wounds is a 4th level Ranger spell.

Not only was I unable to substantiate the claim of "you use the level of the spell on the caster's spell list" in RAW, it is contracticted by this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm):

Likewise, some divine spells are different in level for clerics and druids than they are for paladins and rangers. Such spells appear at the level appropriate to a cleric or druid (considered the default because paladins and rangers typically don’t involve themselves in scribing scrolls).

Rangers typically don't write scrolls, therefore a found scroll of any ranger-and-cleric spell is by default assumed to be a cleric scroll - however, those rangers that do write scrolls do indeed write scrolls with the spell on the ranger's spell level.

This means that the scrolls Durkon was carrying are assumed (by default) to be cleric scrolls, and cast the spell at the cleric's spell level even when cast by Belkar. Ergo, he has a wisdom of 9, QED.

hamishspence

2009-08-26, 11:29 AM

Given that a ranger can read from a cleric scroll (since they are both divine casters) that would allow for a Wis 9 Belkar.

Douglas

2009-08-26, 12:18 PM

Scrolls may not have classes specified, but they do have spell levels specified - it's an integral part of determining the scroll's price. The level of the spell on the scroll is determined by the scroll's creator and is completely independent of the end user. Divine scrolls are generally assumed to be scribed by clerics or druids, so the scrolls in this instance would have been 3rd level.

casper

2009-08-26, 01:07 PM

Thanks for your help, guys.

Ms. Lovin', I'm sorry for not checking FAQ. But still, as noted above, information there is not totally correct. Of course, maybe it WAS fun tramping rules. But I think it probably wasn't.

How about because "Belkar's Wisdom is only marginally below average" would be an extremely silly assertion?

I don't think so. Once before reading OOTS I was playing a chaotic neutral human female warmage with negative, but not catastrophycally low, Wisdom score. She was much like Belkar - sometimes impulsive, sometimes ironical, sometimes thinking of killing enemies more than of saving allies. And, by a coincidence, she was unlucky, I mean REALLY unlucky on her Spot and Listen checks. So I totally find conceivable, that Belkar's Wisdom can be not really low, and V sid about lemmings just because she don't like Belkar.

Kish

2009-08-26, 01:14 PM

I'm afraid that talking about how you personally played a character sounds like an argument from authority--with yourself as the authority. :smalltongue: As far as I'm concerned, everything Belkar's done--from nearly getting himself killed permanently to make Miko Fall, to casually screwing up protecting the spellcasters and then musing, "What kind of brain-dead moron could screw up protecting the spellcasters?"--has always screamed catastrophically bad Wisdom, certainly not approximately average Wisdom. We'll see if Wrecan changes his numbers based on your argument, however, and if he does I'll no longer be in agreement with him.

Kurald Galain

2009-08-26, 01:25 PM

"What kind of brain-dead moron could screw up protecting the spellcasters?"
Well, being a "brain-dead moron" would be a sign of low intelligence, not wisdom.

Yes, Belkar is an idiot, and his intelligence is most likely far below 10. On the other hand, he is a decent cook and (despite failing spot checks when narratively convenient) is one of the more perceptive members of the Order (viz. his good sense of smell). It makes sense for his wisdom to be 9.

Morty

2009-08-26, 01:30 PM

Yes, Belkar is an idiot, and his intelligence is most likely far below 10. On the other hand, he is a decent cook and (despite failing spot checks when narratively convenient) is one of the more perceptive members of the Order (viz. his good sense of smell). It makes sense for his wisdom to be 9.

I wouldn't be so sure about Belkar's Int being below 10. He doesn't display Thog or Elan-level of idiocy. He can think, he just can't be bothered to most of the time, which is a trait of character, not a result of stats. 10 seems a fair bet. And BTW, good sense of smell is apparently a trait of all halflings in the OoTSverse.

casper

2009-08-26, 03:19 PM

Kish

2009-08-26, 03:27 PM

And after all, we can't judge abut mental scores just by several examples (otherwise the fact, that V didn't know about OOTS' main enemy's immunities (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) would make hir Intelligense not enough to cast cantips. I mean, from time to time idiot can act like genius, and genius can do something silly.

Anyway, didn't think anyone would take number indicating Belkar Wisdom so serious. It's just a number... :smallsmile:"Just a number"? If you're suggesting numerical ability scores don't have anything to do with roleplaying, then we disagree completely. If you're suggesting Belkar's displays of idiocy can be explained by ever-so-slightly-below-average-Wisdom and average Intelligence...then we disagree completely*. If you're suggesting that everyone with an Intelligence of 10 or higher who considers a lich his/her adventuring group's main enemy knows liches are immune to electricity (which is what you literally said), then, guess what. :smalltongue: Now, is it possible Rich divorces roleplaying from stats? I would venture no (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/tll307KmEm4H9k6efFP.html).

* For what Kurald Galain said, I could buy that Rich is going for marginally-below-average Wisdom and catastrophic Intelligence, but I would honestly expect fewer people here to agree with low Intelligence than with low Wisdom. Roy called him "smart in his own brain-damaged way."

xelliea

2009-08-26, 03:50 PM

Because I don't have time to look though the whole thread, has anyone done stats for epic V?

Forbiddenwar

2009-08-26, 04:06 PM

V refers to Belkar as having "a wisdom score usually reserved for lemmings" .

I've always been bothered by this comment. No way does Belkar have "a wisdom score usually reserved for lemmings" Lemmings, like all animals, have a decent wisdom score (12+), better than most humans.

Elfin

2009-08-26, 04:22 PM

But Belkar himself says that he has an "ability score penalty".
I'd say that 9 is a pretty safe bet for his Wisdom score.

Wrecan

2009-08-26, 04:26 PM

by this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm)
That is only explaining why a spell appears on the chart of scrolls at a certain level.

It has nothing to do with the minimum ability score needed to use a scroll.

The user must have the spell on his or her class list.
The user must have the requisite ability score.
-Link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm#activatetheSpell)
This indicates that the "requisite ability score" pertains to the "spell on his or her class list". You use the spell level as it appears on the class list of the person using the scroll.

The cost of making a scroll is a different rule form the cost of using a scroll. That does use the level of the spell as it appears on the class list of the scribe. but the requirements for using a scrolls utilizes the spell level as it appears on the class list of the user.

It's two different considerations.

this is also consistent with the fact that scrolls utilize the "spell completion" method of triggering items:

This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can’t already cast the spell, there’s a chance he’ll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.
-Link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#spellCompletion)

In other words, a scroll works under the principle that the user is casting the spell himself. If he can't cast the spell (for reasons other than insufficient class level) he can't use the scroll. (For insufficient class level, he may have a mishap.) Belkar can't cast Cure Serious Wounds without a 14 Wisdom, so he can't use a divine Cure Serious Wounds scroll without a 14 Wisdom.

All of which is moot, since Belkar's Wisdom is now determined by Comic 475.

Jalor

2009-08-26, 05:10 PM

Well, being a "brain-dead moron" would be a sign of low intelligence, not wisdom.

Yes, Belkar is an idiot, and his intelligence is most likely far below 10. On the other hand, he is a decent cook and (despite failing spot checks when narratively convenient) is one of the more perceptive members of the Order (viz. his good sense of smell). It makes sense for his wisdom to be 9.

But most of Belkar's apparent idiocy is a result of acting before thinking. When he killed the Oracle, the whole "my party needs to ask him questions" thing clearly never crossed his mind. He has been seen using big words (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0665.html) and occasionally even has a good plan. However, he acts solely on impulse, stabbing at the slightest provocation.

That's obscenely low Wis, average Int. Isn't being a Ranger without Wisdom and a Chaotic Evil Halfling his joke?

casper

2009-08-26, 05:10 PM

"Just a number"? If you're suggesting numerical ability scores don't have anything to do with roleplaying, then we disagree completely.

No, I just think, that they are not ultimate restriction for roleplay. Well, that's rather complex question, and it wold take a long time to disscuss it here at the forum.

If you're suggesting Belkar's displays of idiocy can be explained by ever-so-slightly-below-average-Wisdom and average Intelligence...then we disagree completely.

I can assume that his Wisdom may be lower than 9 (if count 58th strip as rule of fan), but still think that yes, chaotic evil person with average Int and Wis can act like Belkar. Because he usially acts quite logical, compared to Elan's "Bluff that stupid ogre" and similar staff. I don't see him as an idiot. When he really wants, he is quite insightful (if you need examples, I'll find some). But usially he doesn't really care to think before doing something just because that way it makes more fun. Yes, that's what not totally depend on numbers.

If you're suggesting that everyone with an Intelligence of 10 or higher who considers a lich his/her adventuring group's main enemy knows liches are immune to electricity (which is what you literally said), then, guess what. :smalltongue:

Yes, here I believe we disagree completely. While we know just one (if no more mentioned in printed books), i doubt that liches are totally uncommon in OOTSverse. So there must be some information about them, if you'll try to find it. And if you want to beat some enemy you are aware of, first of all you need to know his strenghs and weaknesses. Seems rather logical for me :smallsmile:

casper

2009-08-26, 05:25 PM

Ok, now I think that's all. If Wrecan said that Belkar's Wisdom is ≤9 after all, let it be ≤9. :smallredface:

Kurald Galain

2009-08-26, 05:37 PM

That is only explaining why a spell appears on the chart of scrolls at a certain level.

It has nothing to do with the minimum ability score needed to use a scroll.

The user must have the spell on his or her class list.
The user must have the requisite ability score.
-Link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm#activatetheSpell)
This indicates that the "requisite ability score" pertains to the "spell on his or her class list". You use the spell level as it appears on the class list of the person using the scroll.

The cost of making a scroll is a different rule form the cost of using a scroll. That does use the level of the spell as it appears on the class list of the scribe. but the requirements for using a scrolls utilizes the spell level as it appears on the class list of the user.

It's two different considerations.

this is also consistent with the fact that scrolls utilize the "spell completion" method of triggering items:

This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can’t already cast the spell, there’s a chance he’ll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.
-Link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#spellCompletion)

In other words, a scroll works under the principle that the user is casting the spell himself. If he can't cast the spell (for reasons other than insufficient class level) he can't use the scroll. (For insufficient class level, he may have a mishap.) Belkar can't cast Cure Serious Wounds without a 14 Wisdom, so he can't use a divine Cure Serious Wounds scroll without a 14 Wisdom.

All of which is moot, since Belkar's Wisdom is now determined by Comic 475.

Occam wants a word with you.

Kish

2009-08-26, 05:55 PM

Occam wants a word with you.
Occam's Razor, like most axioms, is useful only when used precisely.

"entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily" or, popularly applied, "when you have two competing theories that make exactly the same predictions, the simpler one is the better." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_Razor) The thing is, for the two competing theories to make exactly the same prediction, you can't have that prediction just be Belkar using the scrolls (not that I think you could get that alone past Wrecan). Each theory needs to also predict everything Belkar's done that demonstrates his Wisdom.

Do you honestly believe you can get anything close to universal agreement that Occam is on your side here? That "The Owl's Wisdom joke is just a joke and Belkar has the Wisdom his actions display" is more complicated than the amount of arguing you'd have to do to get Belkar's lack of common sense, perception, and insight all classified as displays of low Intelligence rather than Wisdom, or the amount of hand-waving you'd have to do to say those don't matter?

Wrecan

2009-08-26, 06:21 PM

Occam wants a word with you.

Are you saying I'm too verbose (guilty)

Or are you saying my argument has too many assumptions?

Boiled down, my argument is a hypertechnical reading of the rules. The only assumption I seem to be making is that the second quoted bullet point (The user must have the requisite ability score) is relying on the definition set up in the first quoted bullet point (The user must have the spell on his or her class list), which is a natural reading of the English language.

Whereas the counterargument is that the second quoted bullet point relies on definitions created in a separate section of the rules on scroll creation.

I'm pretty comfortable with Ockham on that score.

Kurald Galain

2009-08-27, 06:34 AM

Or are you saying my argument has too many assumptions?
This. In particular because the "Belkar wisdom" issue is the only one in this entire thread that requires actively ignoring one of the comics, and the only time where the FAQ entry has to claim "funny trumps rules".

OOTS started as making fun of D&D rules before it developed into a lengthy storyline. If anything, the early strips are more faithful to the rules than the later ones. The assumption that a ranger requires 14 wisdom to cast a 3rd-level spell is just that - an assumption. It is not found in RAW, and this particular interpretation leads to a contradiction regarding Belkar's stats. Reductio Ad Absurdum teaches us that if we make an assumption, and this leads to a contradiction, it follows that the assumption is incorrect.

The key here is that your argument requires a lengthy amount of complex explanations, whereas the argument that "Belkar's wisdom is 9" requires only one line and doesn't contradict any rules. Hence, the simplest explanation.

Wrecan

2009-08-27, 06:47 AM

The key here is that your argument requires a lengthy amount of complex explanations
No it doesn't. The argument is simple: the rules on using scrolls says the spell must be on your spell list and you must have the requisite ability score for the spell on that spell list.

That's it. One line. Everything else is commentary.

All the arguments for the argument that the requisite ability score should be for the level of the spell from the scroll creator's spell list is utter speculation requiring citation to rules beyond the rules on using scrolls.

We ignore the early comic because it has been trumped by a later comic, and since we are recording the most current iteration of these characters, later has to trump earlier. That's it.

Random832

2009-08-27, 07:07 AM

No it doesn't. The argument is simple: the rules on using scrolls says the spell must be on your spell list and you must have the requisite ability score for the spell on that spell list.

Um, no. The rule says
* The user must have the requisite ability score.

Note the full stop at the end of that sentence. It indicates that nothing else follows. You made up "for the spell on that spell list" - "for the spell level of the scroll" is an equally valid way to read it.

More support: The description of Use Magic Device does not provide a reference for what spell level to use for the ability requirement, or on what ability score to use. The only possible answer is not only the spell level of the scroll (i.e. the spell level on the creator's spell list), but also the ability score associated with the class the scroll was scribed with (Wis for scrolls scribed by a Cleric, Int for scrolls scribed by a Wizard, Cha for scrolls scribed by a Sorcerer).

"Scrolls have no class listed" is simply a false statement. For one thing, tables (especially treasure tables that don't attempt to make an exhaustive list of all possible items of the type on them) aren't primary, so the lack of a column for a class in the "list of scrolls" means nothing. And anyway, the text before the tables specifically explains that randomly generated scrolls are always created by Clerics and Wizards because most other classes' fluff (and in Sorcerer's case, the crunch) doesn't support the existence of large numbers of scrolls scribed by them. There is absolutely no textual support for scrolls being "classless".

They are also priced based on spell level, so even if scrolls don't have a listed class, they absolutely have a listed spell level, which is the actual relevant point for the question about Belkar's Wis.

We ignore the early comic because it has been trumped by a later comic, and since we are recording the most current iteration of these characters, later has to trump earlier. That's it.

Um, what? The later comic does NOT trump the earlier comic under this interpretation. "Wis ≤ 9" does not replace this interpretation's "Wis ≥ 9" any more than any of the other places where it requires multiple comics to pin down the range. It combines to become "Wis = 9". Even if you think the interpretation is wrong, you can't wave your hands and say "it doesn't matter anyway so why think about it", because it does matter because it being right would change the stat block.

Wrecan

2009-08-27, 11:04 AM

Um, no. The rule says
* The user must have the requisite ability score.

Note the full stop at the end of that sentence. It indicates that nothing else follows. You made up "for the spell on that spell list" - "for the spell level of the scroll" is an equally valid way to read it.
No, I didn't I got it from the bullet point preceding it, which clearly references the user's spell list. The bullet points are supposed to be read in conjunction. It saves the writer from having to write "for the spell on your spell list" at the end of each bullet point.

People are getting "for the spell on the creator's spell list" by importing it from other sections of the game, such as scroll-creation rules or the Use Magic Device skill.

The description of Use Magic Device does not provide a reference for what spell level to use for the ability requirement
Yes, it does.

"Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you’re emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15."
Link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/useMagicDevice.htm#) (Under "Emulate an Ability Score").

When using UMD to use a scroll you don't use the level of the spell on the creator's spell list. You use the ability score "appropriate to the class you're emulating"). The skill user decides whether to use the cleric or ranger spell list when he uses UMD to cast a divine Cure Serious Wounds spell.

the text before the tables specifically explains that randomly generated scrolls are always created by Clerics and Wizards
That's not what the text says. The text says:

Several arcane spells are different in level for sorcerers and wizards than they are for bards. Such spells appear on the table at the level appropriate to a sorcerer or wizard (considered the default because bards typically don’t involve themselves in scribing scrolls).

Likewise, some divine spells are different in level for clerics and druids than they are for paladins and rangers. Such spells appear at the level appropriate to a cleric or druid (considered the default because paladins and rangers typically don’t involve themselves in scribing scrolls).

If a divine spell is cast at different levels by clerics and druids, it appears at the level appropriate to a cleric (considered the default choice between clerics and druids).
The text is not saying that no scrolls are generated by rangers or paladins. It says simply that the charts are organized using the cleric/druid tables primarily where a spell appears on different spell lists at different levels.

The reason they can do this is because the creator's spell list is only relevant to the cost of making the scroll. Once the scroll is made, all you need to know is the name of the spell inscribed upon it, whether the scroll is arcane or divine, and at what caster level the scroll has been set. You don't need to know if the scribe was a cleric or ranger because it's irrelevant. No other rules require it.

They are also priced based on spell level
Yes, but a Cure Serious Wounds scroll created by a ranger will sell for the same price as a Cure Serious Wounds scroll created by a cleric (assuming both are set to the same caster level) because they are functionally identical once crafted. The ranger may have to spend more to make it, though.

even if scrolls don't have a listed class, they absolutely have a listed spell level
Irrelevant. The Ability score requirement for using scrolls doesn't rely on the "listed spell level". It uses the spell level of the spell "on his or her class list."

The later comic does NOT trump the earlier comic under this interpretation.
You are correct. My apologies. If I agreed with your interpretation of the scroll use rules, I would change Belkar's stat block. I don't agree, though, so I'm not going to change the stat block or the FAQ.

Random832

2009-08-27, 03:49 PM

No, I didn't I got it from the bullet point preceding it, which clearly references the user's spell list. The bullet points are supposed to be read in conjunction.

Says who? It looks to me like they are intended to be two separate requirements. There's no justification in the text other than you just decided it.

And without that, it is COMPLETELY legitimate to reference other sections of the rules that are related to scrolls, instead of just making up a connection that's not there between two adjacent (i.e. one is not subordinate to the other) list items.

That's not what the text says. The text says:

Several arcane spells are different in level for sorcerers and wizards than they are for bards. Such spells appear on the table at the level appropriate to a sorcerer or wizard (considered the default because bards typically don’t involve themselves in scribing scrolls).

Yes. Because it is a treasure table, and scrolls created by bards, paladins, and rangers are not normal treasure (and thus do not appear on the table).

You are correct. My apologies. If I agreed with your interpretation of the scroll use rules, I would change Belkar's stat block. I don't agree, though, so I'm not going to change the stat block or the FAQ.

The rule is ambiguous enough that the different interpretations should probably be acknowledged in the stat block.

Kurald Galain

2009-08-28, 04:31 AM

It goes like this:

Either (A) we assume that to use a scroll, the relevant spell level is the one at which the spell appears on your own class list. Now we need to make the following additional assumptions to get to a workable situation,
(1) the SRD is mistaken in asserting there is a difference between a "cleric scroll of foo" and a "ranger scroll of foo",
(2) the statement in the SRD about "your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you’re emulating)" is a typo, and should read "(appropriate to your own class)" instead,
(3) that Vaarsuvius's Owl's Wisdom spell doesn't work by the rules,
(4) that there's a contradiction in the comics which we'll resolve by ignoring one,
(5) that "funny trumps rules" even when it isn't actually funny, i.e. that "accident trumps rules".

Or (B) we assume that to use the scroll, the relevant spell level is the one for the creator of the scroll. Now we need to make the following additional assumptions to get to a workable situation,
(0) none. It all adds up: wisdom 9, +4 from the spell, which brings it to 13, which is sufficient to use the scroll.

So yeah, Occam.

And the funny thing here? Vaarsuvius says that Belkar has a wisdom score "normally reserved for lemmings". Of course, V has zero ranks in knowledge: nature, because every single animal in the SRD including a centipede has average wisdom scores, usually 10-12. This fits right in with the notion that V sometimes really doesn't know what he's talking about, e.g. here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0436.html).

Random832

2009-08-28, 07:03 AM

Far be it from me to play devil's advocate here, but...

(1) the SRD is mistaken in asserting there is a difference between a "cleric scroll of foo" and a "ranger scroll of foo",I looked for this distinction and couldn't find it. If it exists, it would be a much stronger support for my argument than the text of the scroll section.

(2) the statement in the SRD about "your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you’re emulating)" is a typo, and should read "(appropriate to your own class)" instead,I've thought about it, and this one as it is actually supports Wrecan's interpretation. The "class you're emulating" is equivalent to the non-UMD caster's own class, not the class of the person who wrote the scroll. This also implies that by RAW a Rogue can arbitrarily choose to emulate Sorcerer to cast a spell from a scroll scribed by a Wizard if her charisma is higher than her intelligence, or vice versa.

(3) that Vaarsuvius's Owl's Wisdom spell doesn't work by the rules,Owl's Wisdom is not dismissable by the rules, so yeah. But the possibility that it doesn't work by other aspects of the rules (i.e. granting more than +4 - say, 1d4+1?) would actually still support the possibility of Belkar's wisdom score being 9.

(5) that "funny trumps rules" even when it isn't actually funny, i.e. that "accident trumps rules".Um, he was talking about the joke itself. Right or wrong, it's not "Belkar having to have a wisdom of 10" that is funny, it's "Belkar casting a cure spell, renouncing evil, and then suddenly changing back when OW is dismissed".

Kurald Galain

2009-08-28, 08:18 AM

I looked for this distinction and couldn't find it. If it exists, it would be a much stronger support for my argument than the text of the scroll section.
"The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class." - SRD

This also implies that by RAW a Rogue can arbitrarily choose to emulate Sorcerer to cast a spell from a scroll scribed by a Wizard if her charisma is higher than her intelligence, or vice versa.
If a rogue can choose to cast an arcane scroll as either a wizard or a sorcerer, then so can Belkar choose to cast a divine scroll as either a ranger or a cleric.

Um, he was talking about the joke itself. Right or wrong, it's not "Belkar having to have a wisdom of 10" that is funny, it's "Belkar casting a cure spell, renouncing evil, and then suddenly changing back when OW is dismissed".
Yes, that's my point. The "funny" part here doesn't require Belkar's wisdom to be any particular value, so it is incorrect to claim that Belkar's wisdom must be X because of the rule of funny.

Kish

2009-08-28, 09:59 AM

Yes, that's my point. The "funny" part here doesn't require Belkar's wisdom to be any particular value, so it is incorrect to claim that Belkar's wisdom must be X because of the rule of funny.
It* requires Belkar's Wisdom to be low enough that hoisting it into able-to-cast-spells range makes him rethink his entire philosophy. A specific numerical requirement? No. Satisfied by a 9? Also no.

*As does Belkar's behavior throughout the comic.

Wrecan

2009-08-28, 05:38 PM

Says who?
Says me, the guy with the power to edit the post.

There's no justification in the text other than you just decided it.
I gave you my justification. you disagree. Fine. Your disagreement has been duly noted.

Yes. Because it is a treasure table, and scrolls created by bards, paladins, and rangers are not normal treasure (and thus do not appear on the table).
Untrue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm). Glibness, for example, a bard-only spell is right there on the arcane spell chart, as are all the bardic cure wounds spells. Bless weapon, a 1st level paladin spell, is also on the divine scroll chart. They are created, despite your allegation that the rules assume they are not and are also available as treasure.

The rule is ambiguous enough that the different interpretations should probably be acknowledged in the stat block.
I disagree. I don't find it ambiguous at all.

Either (A) we assume that to use a scroll, the relevant spell level is the one at which the spell appears on your own class list. Now we need to make the following additional assumptions to get to a workable situation,
(1) the SRD is mistaken in asserting there is a difference between a "cleric scroll of foo" and a "ranger scroll of foo",
The SRD does not assert that in the context of who can cast the spell. It only exists in the context of how much it costs to make a scroll. That distinction is important because that is the one time when you use the scroll-maker's own class list.

(2) the statement in the SRD about "your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you’re emulating)" is a typo, and should read "(appropriate to your own class)" instead
No, that's not a typo at all. It's in the UMD description and is accurate. When using UMD, you use the ability score appropriate for the class the UMD-user is emulating. Which also implies, btw, that a UMD-user can emulate being a cleric to cast a scroll made by a ranger. Why? To take advantage of the more advantageous position a spell might have on that class list.

(3) that Vaarsuvius's Owl's Wisdom spell doesn't work by the rules
That is a necessary conclusion from the fact that it has been contradicted by a future strip. it is not an assumption. You're confusing cause and effect.

(4) that there's a contradiction in the comics which we'll resolve by ignoring one,
That's what we always do what strips conflict.

(5) that "funny trumps rules" even when it isn't actually funny, i.e. that "accident trumps rules".
Yes, because that saying isn't supposed to be taken literally. It's just the way we describe the fact that Rich has very clearly stated he doesn't pay as much meticulous details to rules as we do. This thread is based on a myth that Rich is adhering to the rules, but we all know that he isn't really. He isn't cross-checking things and he's gotten many, many rules wrong over the years, as he acknowledges. "funny trumps rules" is just the respectful (if inaccurate) way we've come to express that concept.

Or (B) we assume that to use the scroll, the relevant spell level is the one for the creator of the scroll.
I can't assume such a thing because it contradicts the rules on scroll use, as I've cited.

And the funny thing here? Vaarsuvius says that Belkar has a wisdom score "normally reserved for lemmings". Of course, V has zero ranks in knowledge: nature, because every single animal in the SRD including a centipede has average wisdom scores, usually 10-12.
Yeah, we discussed this way back when the comic was first printed.

Trixie

2009-08-29, 09:44 AM

I'm afraid that talking about how you personally played a character sounds like an argument from authority--with yourself as the authority. :smalltongue: As far as I'm concerned, everything Belkar's done--

Okay, let's check this "idiocy".

from nearly getting himself killed permanently to make Miko Fall,

He managed to easily beat enemy that had 4 levels more, while sustaining little damage, by carefully exploiting said enemy's vulnerabilities. Oh, and that enemy managed to defeat entire Order before.

Yeah, "idiocy" of the highest sort. His plan only failed due to lack of knowledge concerning one obscure detail about clerical magic. And it wasn't the first powerful enemy Belkar defeated by himself [vague details to avoid spoilers] - in Dragon OotS strips, he beat CR 15 monster all by himself, by guile only, when he was under tenth level :smallamused:

to casually screwing up protecting the spellcasters and then musing, "What kind of brain-dead moron could screw up protecting the spellcasters?"--

Said spellcasters were capable of defending themselves and only their idiotic behavior (like conserving spells in the middle of boss fight) caused this. Note that Belkar killed enemy spellcasters (depriving Xykon of a vital asset) while Order spellcasters somehow did not die without his protection, which says volumes about "danger" they were in - and he was back within round or two.

has always screamed catastrophically bad Wisdom, certainly not approximately average Wisdom.

Only to those who don't like Belkar. At times, he has shown very complex plans, careful planning ahead, and excellent tactics easily besting everyone else's save for maybe Roy. See various traps he prepared for V, for example - much more creative than 'runes on everything around. All his stunts can be attributed to his lack of patience, CE alignment, and general character - things that have nothing to do with stats.

Tempest Fennac

2009-08-29, 09:54 AM

Regarding Belkar, I'd say his Wis isn't that bad when you look at his team mates (eg: dispite Rich saying that Roy supposedly has "very good" Wis, he was still willing to alienate NPCs due to considering them unimportant, after complaining that Miko doesn't respect the dignity of other beings dispite his reaction to the the dirt farmer's misfortune being "yay, a quest hook", and not having at least 1 back-up weapon dispite depending on weapons, while insisting on repeatedly charging the Half-Ogre Cheesemaster while not considering the possibility of Belkar needing to fight in cities when the Mark of Justice was applied, in addition to his tendancy to split the group, including during the first Xykon fight where he could have easily been isolated and killed, suggest a lack of tactical expertise and basic common sense.

V's actions while Soul Spliced suggest a complete lack of common sense due to how many spells s/he used during the dragon fight when an Epic save-or-die spell could have ended it immedietly, combined with his/her shock that s/he scared his/her mate and children after the fight and the complete lack of tactics during the Xkyon fight made me think V is even worse then Belkar for Wis (especially when you consider that Belkar is at least willing to adapt his fighting style if necessary, as Trixie pointed out with the Xykon fight).

Kish

2009-08-29, 10:02 AM

Not having access to Rich's previous posts--or my own, for that matter--is often trying. Rich said once that Wisdom is self-awareness and common sense. Self-awareness is exactly what Belkar demonstrates a lack of when he calls himself a brain-dead moron without ever realizing that's what he said. I don't consider the fact that his plan would have resulted in his own permanent death a tiny detail to be waved away, and tactics are a matter for Intelligence, so the only thing I've said about his tactical abilities, is when I said I doubted Kurald Galain could get Belkar having an extremely low Intelligence past most of the people here.

Tempest Fennac

2009-08-29, 10:16 AM

I think the Wis comment was made when talking about the Mind-Flayer and why hi picked Roy (Rich mentioned that V has poor Cha and average Wis in the same post).

Needle

2009-08-29, 11:08 AM

And that the non-physical drop stat of V is CHA :smalltongue: ("you can't make friends when you're shouting all day about your superior arcane powers" or something like that)

hamishspence

2009-08-29, 11:14 AM

When V's being told to apologize to Elan and cheer him up without using magic:

V: "But my Charisma is-"
Haley: "Not my problem!"

Needle

2009-08-31, 09:56 AM

Not only that, but on Azure City he went to a crappy restaurant without "members having any charisma" :smalltongue:

RMS Oceanic

2009-08-31, 10:01 AM

We can add 12 silver pieces to Haley's possessions, and the string to Belkar/Mr Scruffy.

Salvonus

2009-08-31, 03:19 PM

Haley would appear to have some ranks in Spot, given that Sleight of Hand (i.e. pickpocketing) is opposed by Spot... The thieves were low-level, obviously, but she seems to pull this stunt off reliably - I'd say that would be indicative of some ranks in Spot, and not just one-off luck on a d20. :smallsmile:

(A first-level, elite-array pickpocket could easily have a +6 Sleight of Hand modifier. If Haley's spot modifier is +0, she would be very unlikely to spot Durkon being pickpocketed in every town that they visit.)

Kurald Galain

2009-08-31, 05:53 PM

(A first-level, elite-array pickpocket could easily have a +6 Sleight of Hand modifier. If Haley's spot modifier is +0, she would be very unlikely to spot Durkon being pickpocketed in every town that they visit.)
This is the second town where Durkon gets pickpocketed in, and she didn't notice it in the first :P

That said, I do believe Haley would have ranks in spot. Among others her early line of "Belkar, put some ranks in spot already" (where she sees something that he doesn't) implies the same.

Porthos

2009-08-31, 06:00 PM

This is the second town where Durkon gets pickpocketed in, and she didn't notice it in the first :P.

Haley wasn't there to notice it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0649.html). :smalltongue:

Optimystik

2009-08-31, 06:06 PM

Given that all the actors present were well below eye-level for her (allowing her a great view of the theft) and she was right behind Durkon, I'd say she gets a circumstance bonus there.

Dixieboy

2009-09-01, 07:51 AM

Given that you don't get any bonuses under normal circumstances for the sleight of handee being of non-medium height, or how you are position I'd say nay.

My guess?
She's just that good.

Wrecan

2009-09-01, 01:43 PM

We can add 12 silver pieces to Haley's possessions, and the string to Belkar/Mr Scruffy.

Yes we can.

Although Haley likely has ranks in Spot, she could have made that Spot check untrained.

Optimystik

2009-09-01, 03:51 PM

Given that you don't get any bonuses under normal circumstances for the sleight of handee being of non-medium height, or how you are position I'd say nay.

My guess?
She's just that good.

When they are stealing from you, sure, but when they are stealing from your similarly short friend, whom you're standing behind? That's a different scenario.

Douglas

2009-09-04, 02:23 PM

Dixieboy

2009-09-04, 02:34 PM

When they are stealing from you, sure, but when they are stealing from your similarly short friend, whom you're standing behind? That's a different scenario.

Not by RAW.

RMS Oceanic

2009-09-04, 03:30 PM

I think we just got shown that Haley still has the Lime Green Boots of Speed and is about to start wearing them regularly. I can think of no other plausible reason for her to have a pair of boots that color and want to have them dyed.

It's probably the boots of speed, but we still have no proof.

I'd add green boots and heat resistant magical armour to Haley's inventory, and a Belt of Charisma to Elan's. This means he would have a Charisma of at least 22.

Igfig

2009-09-04, 03:34 PM

Assuming the values they haggled to in comic #675 are the regular market prices for the items (which I think sounds reasonable), Elan now has a +2 Belt of Charisma. Haley's new armour is probably +3 leather with a custom +1 ability that duplicates Endure Elements, although on second though Endure Elements should be a flat-cost ability.

Wrecan

2009-09-04, 03:58 PM

baerdith

2009-09-04, 04:22 PM

Let's not assume. Haley has magical leather and is dying her lime green boots of speed. Elan has a belt of charisma.

But the only RAW "Clothing" that gives Charisma boost is Cloak. +2 is 4000k, add in a bump due to changing items and the vendor was obviously marking up. Plus the +4 cloak is 16K, so Elan got a +2 belt of charisma with 98.5% probablity.....

Wrecan

2009-09-04, 04:56 PM

But the only RAW "Clothing" that gives Charisma boost is Cloak.
He called it a belt of charisma. Until someone tells him he just bought an overpriced belt, he has a Belt of Charisma of unknown modifier.

lord_khaine

2009-09-04, 05:22 PM

considering market price for a +2 and a +4 belt, as well as the rules for haggling, then i think we can be sure that the basic price of the belt is under 6k, meaning its +2.

Mando Knight

2009-09-05, 12:59 AM

considering market price for a +2 and a +4 belt, as well as the rules for haggling, then i think we can be sure that the basic price of the belt is under 6k, meaning its +2.

Well, by "normal" pricing rules, a Belt of Charisma +2 is worth exactly 6000 gp: 4000 for the base item (Cloak of Charisma +2), then a 50% markup (that is, +2000) for switching to an unusual slot (Belt rather than Cloak). That puts Elan's new belt almost precisely as a Belt of Charisma +2, unless the Giant is throwing us a curveball.

RMS Oceanic

2009-09-05, 07:43 AM

Kish

2009-09-05, 09:27 AM

But the only RAW "Clothing" that gives Charisma boost is Cloak. +2 is 4000k, add in a bump due to changing items and the vendor was obviously marking up. Plus the +4 cloak is 16K, so Elan got a +2 belt of charisma with 98.5% probablity.....
Statistics pulled out of the air not good support...I agree with Wrecan. Formerly-green, now mustard yellow, boots of speed, and a belt of unspecified +Charisma.

lord_khaine

2009-09-05, 09:49 AM

Well, by "normal" pricing rules, a Belt of Charisma +2 is worth exactly 6000 gp: 4000 for the base item (Cloak of Charisma +2), then a 50% markup (that is, +2000) for switching to an unusual slot (Belt rather than Cloak). That puts Elan's new belt almost precisely as a Belt of Charisma +2, unless the Giant is throwing us a curveball.

Didnt they change those rules in magic item compendum?

And i really cant see how that belt can be anything but a +2 belt, is anyone seriously going to suggest Elen got a +4 belt for under 50% of market price, in a botched hagling?

I allways though we took the most likely explanation that was supportet by the comic?

Kurald Galain

2009-09-06, 05:34 AM

And i really cant see how that belt can be anything but a +2 belt, is anyone seriously going to suggest Elen got a +4 belt for under 50% of market price, in a botched hagling?
I agree. Both the belt (+2) and the armor (+5) have a price that exactly matches the price in the rulebook for an attribute very appropriate to how the belt and armor are described. Those prices aren't random, they indicate how many pluses the items have.

Dixieboy

2009-09-06, 02:10 PM

Another thing I've noticed today is that Elan says he doesn't wear armour because his class features depend on it. This suggests that the Dashing Swordsman needs you to wear no armour to get its benefits.

That, or he's talking about his Hiding skill :smalltongue:

But you got a point, have we seen him wearing armor since he took a level in Dashing swordsman?

Kurald Galain

2009-09-06, 04:15 PM

But you got a point, have we seen him wearing armor since he took a level in Dashing swordsman?
No, and he did wear chainmail before.

Acero

2009-09-06, 04:58 PM

Didnt they change those rules in magic item compendum?

And i really cant see how that belt can be anything but a +2 belt, is anyone seriously going to suggest Elen got a +4 belt for under 50% of market price, in a botched hagling?

I allways though we took the most likely explanation that was supportet by the comic?

who said it wasn't? Elan might not be smart enough to know how items stack
or he might never have even had a belt with over +2 charisma bonus

lord_khaine

2009-09-07, 03:40 AM

He might not have had a opportunity to get his hands on a +2 item before now, before he has proberly been out of either time or money.

Felistor

2009-09-08, 11:31 PM

Base Prices for 3.5 Belt of Charisma (according to Magic Item Compendium):
+2 modifier: 4,000 gp
+4 modifier: 16,000 gp

Base Prices for 3.5 Belt of Charisma (using the old DMG rules for custom item)
+2 modifier: 6,000 gp
+4 modifier: 24,000 gp

I don't wan't to reopen the debates over whether any 4.0 rules have been added, but I will note that to my knowledge there is no item in 4.0 that could be called a Belt of Charisma, and that there have been no uniquely 4.0 items used yet.

Given that Elan was offered 6k, made the purchase for 8k, and everyone present (including Haley who out to know the market value for a magic item) thought Elan was spending more than market value, I think it is quite fair to say that Elan now has a +2 Belt of Charisma.

It doesn't really matter whether the belt was created using the newer 3.5 rules or the older 3.5 rules -- either way the stats are the same (+2 enhancement bonus to Charisma) and either way the prices in the comic make sense. It does not make any sense at all for Elan to have purchased a +4 item for only 8k.

Felistor

2009-09-08, 11:49 PM

Haley's new armour is probably +3 leather with a custom +1 ability that duplicates Endure Elements, although on second though Endure Elements should be a flat-cost ability.

The most likely armor ability in my opinion would be "Comfort" from Shining South (+5k to the cost, allows the user and user's equipment to ignore temperature effects between -50 and +140 Fahrenheit).
We don't have enough evidence yet to say whether this or a different ability is on her armor, but it bears watching.

Trixie

2009-09-11, 02:43 PM

Quickened LB & usages of diamond dust: discussion open.

Incidentally, why being a warlock would be more offensive than a sorcerer? :smallconfused:

RMS Oceanic

2009-09-11, 02:53 PM

Quickened LB & usages of diamond dust: discussion open.

Incidentally, why being a warlock would be more offensive than a sorcerer? :smallconfused:

1. At least a Sorcerer casts spells as Wizard's understand them.
2. A Warlock's repertoire is even more limited than a Sorcerer's.

Bibliomancer

2009-09-11, 02:54 PM

1. At least a Sorcerer casts spells as Wizard's understand them.
2. A Warlock's repertoire is even more limited than a Sorcerer's.

Warlocks also derive their powers from bargains with infernal powers, something with could remind V of what she had to do recently to save her family.

Trixie

2009-09-11, 02:59 PM

Well, so do Sorcerer's in some settings.

And most Warlock's abilities are similar to spells, but I see your point.

Blue Ghost

2009-09-11, 04:08 PM

Quickened LB & usages of diamond dust: discussion open.

Quickened Lightning Bolt wouldn't require any additions; we already know she has Quicken Spell and Lightning Bolt, as well as the ability to cast 7th-level spells. Uses of diamond dust? There are too many to say definitively. The only change I see we require is adding diamond dust to V's possessions.

Kurald Galain

2009-09-11, 07:55 PM

Incidentally, why being a warlock would be more offensive than a sorcerer? :smallconfused:
Because a wizard needs to be highly intelligent, a sorcerer needs to be highly talented, and a warlock needs nothing, since some nebulous entity gives him his power. Warlock is the ultimate "lazy" class and doesn't even require any particular ability scores.

Uses of diamond dust? There are too many to say definitively.
There are precisely two in core, being Nondetection and Stone Skin. Nevertheless, by the standards of this thread, two is indeed "too many to say definitely" :smalltongue:

Wrecan

2009-09-11, 10:42 PM

V has a jar of diamond dust (until a future strip reveals otherwise)!

Kish

2009-09-11, 10:45 PM

You sure about that, Wrecan? S/he didn't reach the register before breaking the "No Spellcasting" rule, which Blackwing expressed certainty would get him/her kicked out of the store without the dust.

Wrecan

2009-09-11, 10:55 PM

As of the end of the strip, V still carried the dust. I fully expect to be deleting the dust at the beginning of the next strip though. :)

TehSheen

2009-09-11, 11:01 PM

At the next strip, I expect some wizard guards throwing V outside and the Turban Guy has the diamond dust jar in his hand. V then threatens Turban Guy, and Turban Guy says something that makes V recite about 3 hours of stuff. Turban Guy has disappeared!

Random832

2009-09-12, 02:20 PM

What core uses of diamond dust are there for a non-epic wizard other than either Stoneskin or Nondetection? Most other spells call for powdered diamond, which by RAW is different.

Jagos

2009-09-12, 03:16 PM

Odd, the link to Haley's level says she's >= 15. Why is it linked to 615? Does it have to do with her ability to use Multishot?

Douglas

2009-09-12, 03:19 PM

Odd, the link to Haley's level says she's >= 15. Why is it linked to 615? Does it have to do with her ability to use Multishot?
First panel, "Seeking? I've got a feat that can do most of that already." The only feat that makes sense for that comment is Improved Precise Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedPreciseShot), and a Rogue does not have the requisite BAB to take that feat until 15th level.

Forbiddenwar

2009-09-12, 03:43 PM

There are precisely two in core, being Nondetection and Stone Skin. Nevertheless, by the standards of this thread, two is indeed "too many to say definitely" :smalltongue:

What core uses of diamond dust are there for a non-epic wizard other than either Stoneskin or Nondetection? Most other spells call for powdered diamond, which by RAW is different.

There are four Core uses for strictly diamond dust:
From D20:
Restoration :: Diamond dust worth 100 gp that is sprinkled over the target.

Nondetection :: A pinch of diamond dust worth 50 gp.

Stoneskin ::Granite and 250 gp worth of diamond dust sprinkled on the target's skin.

Temporal Stasis :: A powder composed of diamond, emerald, ruby, and sapphire dust with a total value of at least 5000 gp.

If we expand it to powdered diamonds or just diamonds (any spell requiring diamonds can be cast with powdered diamond or diamond dust, since those are just smaller diamonds) the list expands to impossible to determine without being cast.

Random832

2009-09-12, 04:08 PM

Well, I didn't count Restoration since wizards can't cast it.

RMS Oceanic

2009-09-13, 06:03 AM

Vaasuvius now has court summons notifying h** of Inkyrius' intention to divorce h**.

Wrecan

2009-09-13, 07:00 AM

Exactly right, and they still haven't yet taken V's diamond dust.

Kurald Galain

2009-09-13, 07:08 AM

There are four Core uses for strictly diamond dust:
Except that V is too low-level (as far as we know) to cast Temporal Stasis, and of the wrong class to cast Restoration.

Exactly right, and they still haven't yet taken V's diamond dust.
I believe V no longer has it: in 677, Blackwing says that if they're thrown out, they won't be able to buy it, and in 678 V says that now he will no longer be able to buy it. That should mean that either V has stolen it, or has put it back.

(edit) just a minor nitpick, but V's metamagic feat is called "empower spell", not "empowered spell". Same thing for maximize and quicken.

Wrecan

2009-09-13, 07:13 AM

Good point, Kurald. I'll remove the dust and fix the metamagic feat names.

Chronos

2009-09-13, 11:19 AM

In this comic, V says that "my dwarven companion and I required that dust", so it could be for a cleric spell. Maybe V is just doing the component shopping for both of them.

Trixie

2009-09-16, 04:05 AM

What core uses of diamond dust are there for a non-epic wizard other than either Stoneskin or Nondetection? Most other spells call for powdered diamond, which by RAW is different.

Hmmm, I've looked into SRD, but I can't find anything about them being different :smallconfused:

And just what exactly is diamond dust if not powdered diamond? :smallconfused:

Kurald Galain

2009-09-16, 09:28 AM

And just what exactly is diamond dust if not powdered diamond? :smallconfused:

Let me put it this way: pixie dust is not powdered pixie... :smalltongue:

RMS Oceanic

2009-09-16, 09:42 AM

Looking back on the soul-splice arc as a whole, I think I can make a stronger argument that Vaarsuvius has Overland Flight.

Basically, around 657 or so, there was an argument about why V didn't have any flight spells prepared, and Rich came in and confirmed that V had already cast a flight spell, which was running the whole time. Since this spell was running for nearly the whole length of the splice, around 20 minutes or so, and was cast before the Black Dragon attacked, this means it couldn't have been Fly, because it wouldn't have last more than 15 minutes under our known information about V. Thus, it must have been Overland Flight, because it's the only spell in core that we see to behave in a similar manner to Fly, which wizards can cast and gives it a long enough duration.

Wrecan

2009-09-16, 12:27 PM

If you can find the post where The Giant said V had a fly spell running the entire time, I'll add Overland Flight to the spell list!

RMS Oceanic

2009-09-16, 12:53 PM

I believe it was this post:

The Voice of Mod: OK, stop it. Everyone.

First, if you want to debate endlessly about a minor aspect of the rules with regard to the comic, take it to another thread. Leave this one for general reactions.

Second, everyone has the right to express their opinions, even if that opinion is that someone else is wrong. People are permitted to criticize the comic, and they are permitted to defend the comic, as long as no one resorts to personal insults. You are not allowed to question the motives of someone who criticizes or defends the comic, nor suggest that they need to stop doing so!

Third, since some people HAVE resorted to personal insults, expect there to be some forthcoming scrubbing, infracting, and possibly banning. And that goes for anyone who continues sniping at each other after this.

That being said, yes, it was my intention that when Vaarsuvius regained his spell slots, he chose whatever spells he wanted in them, since that's what always happens when a wizard regains spell slots: you choose your spells. That's why I said it replenished slots instead of replenished spells, because slots need to be then prepared. It doesn't take an hour to do so for the same reason V didn't need to rest for 8 hours, because it was Big Mojo Magic that breaks the rules. It wasn't explicitly shown because it never occurred to me that it mattered to anyone, and I already waste enough panels explaining things that aren't actually important to satisfy a certain subset of readers. I have to draw the line somewhere, and this is where I drew it.

Hopefully, that will end the argument. Though perhaps that's overly optimistic of me.

Now, my memory was slightly faulty in its contents, but since Vaarsuvius was flying since the splice began (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0635.html), we never saw h** cast a flight spell and (s)he mentions (s)he doesn't have any more fly spells after the splice ends (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0658.html), I think that's strong enough to assume Overland Flight. Of course, you might disagree.

Wrecan

2009-09-16, 03:34 PM

Well, here's my issue. We see V first being roused from a nightmare in 623 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html). V is regaining spells at this point, so we can presume that the prior flying spell (be it overland flight or fly) has ended.

V begins flying in 627 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html) but we don't get to see what spell was cast. Nor when it was cast. It may have been cast between 625 and 626, or maybe it was a contingent fly spell. We don't know because we didn't see it cast. In the same round V starts flying, the dragon pounces V with the antimagic sphere. There's a lot exposition. Maybe a few minutes of talking until the transformation, during which V never flies. V is immediately flying after the transformation (635 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0635.html)), but again, we never see what spell is cast, nor whether it's a function of the epic link, though it's notable that V has no problems with flight until the link ends, at which point V is not flying (and says V is out of fly spells). This indicates to me that V's flight during the link was a function of the link (whether a spell cast using one of the linked spirit caster's spells, or just a property of the epic link).

So in the end, I don't think this episode demonstrates that V has overland flight. V flew without the link for all of a single round.

Kurald Galain

2009-09-16, 04:18 PM

It may have been cast between 625 and 626, or maybe it was a contingent fly spell.
It strikes me as poor resource management to spend a 6th spell (contingency) on flight for a few minutes, when you could spend a 5th spell on flight for pretty much the entire day. On the other hand, it is common strategy for 9th-level casters and up to cast Overland Flight first thing in the morning (like Xykon does) because it effectively lasts all day - that's what the spell is for.

This indicates to me that V's flight during the link was a function of the link (whether a spell cast using one of the linked spirit caster's spells, or just a property of the epic link).
On the contrary, we know exactly what the link does because we have been explained that. For the link to throw in free flight is like "murder arson and jaywalking (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ArsonMurderAndJaywalking).

Wrecan

2009-09-16, 04:54 PM

It strikes me as poor resource management
Poor resource management appears to be a prerequisite to joining the Order of the Stick. At any rate, assuming good resource management isn't what geekery is about.

On the contrary, we know exactly what the link does because we have been explained that. For the link to throw in free flight is like "murder arson and jaywalking (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ArsonMurderAndJaywalking).

That trope applies to explicit lists. And we aren't told everything the splice does. We're told what it doesn't do (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html):

No duplicating divine spells
All ongoing effects end when the splice ends
No XP gained

All we are told about what it does do is that V can "access all of the arcane powers that the mortal soul held when alive (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html)." If Ganonron or Jephton had an arcane power that let them fly all the time, then V got it during the soul splice and lost it when the splice ended. It's really not fruitful to try to ferret out what powers V used durign the splice that were not possessed by the spliced souls.

Trixie

2009-09-16, 05:33 PM

All ongoing effects end when the splice ends

This point pretty much says it - whatever it was, flight was something V gained from the splice. If not, V would use it to fling the phylactery into hole herself, not send a familiar to do that.

Shale

2009-09-16, 05:47 PM

V didn't stop flying when the splice ended, s/he stopped when hit with Superb Dispelling.

RMS Oceanic

2009-09-17, 04:05 AM

And Vaarsuvius loses Drawmji's Instant Summons.

And h** family. :smallfrown:

Kurald Galain

2009-09-17, 05:40 AM

This point pretty much says it - whatever it was, flight was something V gained from the splice. If not, V would use it to fling the phylactery into hole herself, not send a familiar to do that.

No, the flight was dispelled by Xykon.

At any rate, after 679, we should probably add diamond dust to V's inventory, and a bauble.

Wrecan

2009-09-17, 06:24 AM

and a raven-sized fake beard and mustache!

Kurald Galain

2009-09-17, 06:57 AM

and a raven-sized fake beard and mustache!

And a sombrero.

Actually, given the greater prominence given to Mr. Scruffy and Blackwing recently, perhaps we should remove the two of them from "items" and give them their own section? I'm sure we can make some inferences on their ability scores, feats, and languages spoken. Furthermore, Blackwing (not V) possesses the bauble, and Scruffy (not Belkar) has called dibs on that piece of string.

Irbis

2009-09-17, 07:26 AM

Yes, their stat blocks would be interesting to see :smallwink:

Wrecan

2009-09-17, 07:53 AM

I wish we'd get some geekery-worthy proof that Scruffy is Belkar's animal companion. So far it's just one iota shy of being confirmed.

As for Blackwing, I guess we can include a statblock for it...
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/6766/familierbn5.pngBlackwing
True Neutral Male Tiny Magical Beast, 14 HD (1/2 of V's hp)
Attributes:
Str 1 (raven)
Dex 15 (raven)
Con 10 (raven)
Int 12 (raven, 14th level familiar)
Wis 14 (raven)
Cha 6 (raven)
Feats: Alertness, Weapon FinesseB
Skills : Concentration, Craft (Alchemy), Knowledge (Arcane), Listen +5, Speak language (Common, Elven), Spellcraft, Spot +7 (Blackwing uses V's skill ranks, unless Blackwing's ranks are higher)
Abilities: Deliver touch spells, empathic link, improved evasion, low-light vision, share spells, speak with master, speak with birds, spell resistance 19, +7 to natural armor
Items: bauble, tiny-sized sombrero and fake mustache and beard.

Did I miss anything?

sam79

2009-09-17, 08:01 AM

Items: bauble.

Did I miss anything? Do we know for certain Blackwing's gender?

'Feeble Mexican disguise' as an item?

Kurald Galain

2009-09-17, 08:11 AM

Speak language (Common, Elven),
I just realized that Blackwing speaks Raven, because he does so at several points in the comic. Interestingly, Mr. Jones also speaks (or at least understands) Raven, and so does Vaarsuvius (e.g. in the court case, or in the Chicken Mage comic).

Did I miss anything? Do we know for certain Blackwing's gender?
The bird is consistently referred to as male (e.g. "He's asking for morphine")

Wrecan

2009-09-17, 09:16 AM

Mr. Jones also speaks (or at least understands) Raven, and so does Vaarsuvius (e.g. in the court case, or in the Chicken Mage comic).
Actually, V's ability is probably from Blackwing's ability to Speak With Master. Mr. Jones may have had a Tongues spell cast in anticipation of the witness. (alternately, the courtroom may have been enchanted with a permanent tongues effect).

The bird is consistently referred to as male (e.g. "He's asking for morphine")
Ah. Good.

I'll add Blackwing's disguise and gender.

Kurald Galain

2009-09-19, 05:33 PM

I found in OOPC that Elan has a higher listen skill than his paladin employer, Sir Francois. Given Elan's negative wisdom mod, this is only possible if he has ranks in it.

Cizak

2009-09-20, 05:59 AM

Just read through the first post and the FAQ, but didn't find any answer to my question. Is there a reason why Durkon's spells aren't listed since Elan's and V's are?

Wrecan

2009-09-20, 06:44 AM

Just read through the first post and the FAQ, but didn't find any answer to my question. Is there a reason why Durkon's spells aren't listed since Elan's and V's are?

Clerics get all the sells on their spell list. So Durkon doesn't technically "have" any spells of his own.

Wrecan

2009-09-20, 06:46 AM

I found in OOPC that Elan has a higher listen skill than his paladin employer, Sir Francois. Given Elan's negative wisdom mod, this is only possible if he has ranks in it.

Elan's already listed with ranks in Listen.

RMS Oceanic

2009-09-22, 01:00 AM

We now know Haley has at least 200,000 gp in cash.

Trixie

2009-09-22, 06:15 AM

The bird is consistently referred to as male (e.g. "He's asking for morphine")

Um, that's not male. That's gender-neutral just as easily. Just look at what V was called.

RMS Oceanic

2009-09-22, 06:17 AM

Um, that's not male. That's gender-neutral just as easily. Just look at what V was called.

V has been referred as both genders at different times.

Wrecan

2009-09-22, 07:14 AM

We now know Haley has at least 200,000 gp in cash.

yes we do. Added!

Mc. Lovin'

2009-09-22, 08:22 AM

Well surely she doesn't have crystal's stuff anymore

Shale

2009-09-22, 08:32 AM

Um, that's not male. That's gender-neutral just as easily. Just look at what V was called.

V's the one who said it. S/he would know.

Wrecan

2009-09-22, 11:22 AM

Well surely she doesn't have crystal's stuff anymore

Good point.

Random832

2009-09-22, 10:20 PM

I'm considering taking over maintenance of the evil/minor characters section for the next thread, if Chrismith still doesn't have time.

Format test
:redcloak: Redcloak, Lawful? Evil Goblin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/goblin.htm) Male Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/Classes/cleric.htm) 15+ 457 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0457.html)
Abilities: Str ~8, Dex ~12, Con ~10, Int ~10, Wis 20+, Cha 12+
- Wis: Save DC (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrowDifficultyClass) of 22+ on a 7th-level spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm) 456 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html)
- Cha: Multiple rebuke uses. 459 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html) 461 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html) 462 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html)
Feats (5+): Extend Spell 451 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html), Craft Wondrous Item (helped Xykon create his phylacterySOD)
Skills (36+): DiplomacySOD. +4 racial bonus on Move Silently and Ride.
Special Abilities: Rebuke Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#turnOrRebukeUndead), Destruction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#destructionDomain)/Law (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#lawDomain) domainsSOD, Darkvision to 60 ft.
Items: Unholy symbol / Xykon's Phylactery, Crimson Mantle, spyglass 423 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html)