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View Full Version : Beguiler / Wu Jen / Ultimate Magus Build (D&D 3.5)



Will_Shakespear
2008-10-27, 12:48 PM
Hi there,

right now I'm trying to make up a nice arcane build. Until now i got this:

Beguiler 1 / Wu Jen 4 / Ultimate Magus 10

What do you guys suggest for the remaining 5 pre epic levels (and what to do at epic levels)?

Race will be Human, i guess.

Thanks for your input.

Cheerio

Will

Kurald Galain
2008-10-27, 01:36 PM
What do you guys suggest for the remaining 5 pre epic levels

Archmage would be nice.

Will_Shakespear
2008-10-27, 01:43 PM
Taking the Spell Foci feats necessary for Archmage will be impossible with Beguiler and Wu Jen, i guess. Besides that Archmage is a strong option, absolutely.

Temp.
2008-10-27, 01:49 PM
Taking the Spell Foci feats necessary for Archmage will be impossible with Beguiler and Wu Jen, i guess.Huh? Beguilers get great mileage from Spell Focus--Illusion and Enchantment; save-or-sucks from those two schools are sort of their shtick.

Frosty
2008-10-27, 07:25 PM
Do Wu-Jen use INT as casting stat?

Moff Chumley
2008-10-27, 07:28 PM
What's the backstory, goal, and concept of the build?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-10-27, 09:38 PM
Look at the wording on what class Ultimate Magus adds spellcasting to at 1, 4, and 7, it's based off caster level rather than spellcasting ability. If you take Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler by level 3 and go Illumian (RoD) with the Krau sigil, you can add all ten levels of UM to your Wu-Jen spellcasting Naenkrau would be a good runeword to use. That will end up at level 15 with 8th level Beguiler casting and 14th level Wu-Jen casting, and by level 20 you can have 19th level Wu-Jen casting. Note that you can apply your own bonuses in whatever order you choose, so you add Krau and Practiced Spellcaster first, which increase your caster level to up to your current HD, then add the Arcane Spell Power bonus from UM afterward so your caster level is higher than your current level. Take Versatile Spellcaster (RotD) and you'll get access to another level of Beguiler spells, you won't get very many but it's well worth having for more options.

Good classes to finish out to 20 with would include a single level of Mindbender, then four levels of Incantatrix (PGtF) or Fatespinner (CA). Aburant Champion (CM) is also a decent choice. Archmage is almost never worth taking all five levels of, and you don't want to take any levels that don't increase your spellcasting.

Temp.
2008-10-27, 10:42 PM
Take Versatile Spellcaster (RotD) and you'll get access to another level of Beguiler spells, you won't get very many but it's well worth having for more options.I like the thought, but it doesn't quite work out by the RAW (and I think you'll have a tough time selling it as RAI):

...You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. . .

...When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all spells for that level on the Beguiler's spell list. . .
I don't think there's anything (except maybe RAI) stopping you from sacking Beguiler spell slots through Versatile Spellcaster to cast spells of the next higher level from your Wu Jen list, though...

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-10-27, 11:12 PM
Versatile Spellcaster itself gives you access to the next level of spells, which Beguiler automatically grants you all spells known of any level of spells you have access to. As far as I can see, this works RAW and is probably right by RAI.

Temp.
2008-10-27, 11:33 PM
But you don't learn the spells from Beguiler until you gain access to the next level of spells. And Versatile Spellcaster doesn't grant access to the next level of spells until you already know them...

You either need something adding spells to your "Spells Known" list above the level that you can cast or you need to somehow gain access to the next level of Beguiler spells (at which point the trick loses its real purpose) before VS can work that way.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-10-28, 12:03 AM
If a Sorcerer 6 somehow loses his one 3rd level spell known, even if temporarily, it doesn't mean he can no longer cast 3rd level spells. He still has access to that level of spells, regardless of whether or not he knows any. Just the same, a Beguiler, Warmage, or Dread Necromancer with Versatile Spellcaster has access to the next level of spells, regardless of whether or not he actually knows any. Assume a Wizard is out adventuring for an extended amount of time with no quills or inks. He hits Wizard 5 and doesn't get a chance to put any 3rd level spells into his spellbook. Once he gains his 6th level he takes a prestige class which requires him to be able to cast 3rd level spells, which he does qualify for. Just because he isn't able to cast any spells of that level right then doesn't mean that he doesn't have the ability to do so for purposes of requirements in game mechanics. Just the same, if that same character were to use up all his 3rd level spells for the day, and therefore be no longer able to cast 3rd level or higher spells until the next time he prepares spells, he does not cease to qualify for his prestige class. Game mechanics only check a character's static capabilities regardless of the current condition of those abilities.

Versatile Spellcaster allows a character to cast spells of the next level, regardless of whether or not he knows any right now; access to that level of spells has been gained by that character. Therefore, he automatically knows all of his Beguiler spells of that level, due to having access to that level of spells.

Rei_Jin
2008-10-28, 12:11 AM
That's dubious logic. The only way that as a DM I would allow a player to use a higher level spell slot than they normally have access to, is for the purposes of Metamagic.

Just because you can trade in two spell slots of one level to gain a higher level spell slot doesn't mean you can cast a spell of that level.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-10-28, 12:23 AM
There are two separate questions, which are not dependent on each other:
1. Could this character cast a spell of X level?
2. Does this character know any spells of X level?

Beguiler and similar classes base their Spells Known on question 1. Versatile Spellcaster fulfills question 1. regardless of the answer to question 2.

"When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the beguiler's spell list." That does not require you to have spell slots of that level of spells, only a means to access that level of spells regardless of what it may be. Versatile Spellcaster is a means of accessing spells one level higher than you have spell slots for, therefore you automatically know all of your Beguiler spells of that level.

Rei_Jin
2008-10-28, 12:39 AM
Beguiler spells
Spells: A beguiler casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the beguiler spell list on page 11. When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the beguiler's spell list. You can cast any spell you know without preparing it ahead of time. Essentially, your spell list is the same as your spells known list. You also have the options of adding to your existing spell list through your advanced learning class feature (see below) as you increase in level.


Feat
VERSATILE SPELLCASTER
You can use two lower-level spell slots to cast a spell one
level higher.
Prerequisite: Ability to spontaneously cast spells.
Benefit: You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows.

Reading this, I would rule as a DM that you have not gained access to a new level of spells until you reach the relevant class level, and therefore cannot use Versatile Spellcaster to cast spells that you would not normally have access to.

Will_Shakespear
2008-10-28, 02:02 AM
Hi,

yes, the Wu-Jen uses INT for her casting.

We don't use RotD, so Versatile Spellcaster is no option. But thanks for that suggestion.

Fatespinner is a nice option. Does the Beguiler have Abjuration spells on her spell list? Maybe I'll be taking some IotSV levels then. Will have to check that, when I'll be able to look at my books.

Cheerio

Will

Frosty
2008-10-28, 02:06 AM
Hi,

yes, the Wu-Jen uses INT for her casting.

We don't use RotD, so Versatile Spellcaster is no option. But thanks for that suggestion.

Fatespinner is a nice option. Does the Beguiler have Abjuration spells on her spell list? Maybe I'll be taking some IotSV levels then. Will have to check that, when I'll be able to look at my books.

Cheerio

Will

Umm, Dispel and Greater Dispel if nothing else.

Will_Shakespear
2008-10-28, 11:38 AM
Yes, those two spells will be enough, thanks. I'll be taking the complete seven IotSV levels then. Maybe i'll be cutting the Ultimate Magus at level 9, so the build will look: Beguiler 1 / Wu Jen 4 / Ultimate Magus 9 / IotSV 7 (total 21 levels, suboptimal, i want a pre epic finish here). Cutting Ultimate Magus at lvl 8 results in a Beguiler 7 and Wu Jen 11 caster level at character level 13 (i'm gonna retrain Practiced Spellcaster and just go with the bonus levels from Ultimate Magus, going up to a 10 / 14 at character level 13). With this the Beguiler won't get lvl 4 spells which i need to fuel Quicken / Twinned etc. spells via Augmented Casting. Hmmm, a difficult one, i guess. I definitely need those level 4 slots. Any suggestion (mabye an uncheesy one :smallwink: ) getting that spell level 4, besides Versatile Spellcaster?

Thanks for your input.

Paul H
2008-11-03, 04:37 PM
Hi

Break Enchantment & Mind Blank are also Abjuration.

Cheers
Paul H