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golentan
2008-10-27, 05:43 PM
No pun-pun style cheese for this challenge please.

My question is, can anyone beat the Armor Class of this build at level 10?
Ability scores are 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, and 8, feats from flaws are allowed, as are level adjustment races/templates of all descriptions (must be WoTC).

Holy Monk-ey:
Swordsage 3/Monk 5 Saint Anthropomorphic Monkey
Str: 8, Dex: 18, Con: 12, Int: 8, Wis: 26, Cha 16,
Feats: Sacred Vow, Vow of poverty, Improved Initiative, Monk: stunning fist, Deflect arrows, Bonus Exalted: Sanctify Ki Strike, Touch of Golden Ice, Intuitive Attack, Feats from flaws: Combat Expertise, Dodge, Flaws: Noncombatant, Shaky. Traits: Cautious.

Net AC (if level adjustment doesn't stack with VoP): 55 (+9 monk, +8 Swordsage, +8 Saint, +2 dodge, +5 combat expertise, +1 size, +4 dex, +6 exalted, +1 deflection, +1 natural), Flat footed 27, Touch 54.
If it does: 56 (+9 monk, +8 Swordsage, +8 Saint, +2 dodge, +5 combat expertise, +1 size, +4 dex, +7 exalted, +1 deflection, +1 natural), Flat footed 28, Touch 55.

And all without items. The goal here was to get the highest wisdom I could, which meant anthropomorphic animal. Then, since monk and swordsage both grant you your wisdom to AC as an untyped bonus, I figured they stacked, even though any DM would houserule that away. Vow of poverty grants better protection than non-magic plate armor, especially with the wisdom bonuses that start accruing later on. The saint template adds the wisdom to AC again, and adds further protection in the form of damage reduction 5/evil, fast healing 4, and a constant double strength magic circle against evil and lesser globe of invulnerability as cast by an 8th level cleric. Finally, round it off with some dodging feats and start looking for combat edges. I admit the last part is *far* from optimized, but I just see that as room for improvement.

lord_khaine
2008-10-27, 05:45 PM
actualy i belive it has been ruled somewhere that monk and swordsage bonus to ac is the same type of ability, so they dont stack.

monty
2008-10-27, 05:54 PM
Also, technically you only get the swordsage bonus while wearing light armor, so you couldn't get them both anyway.

monty
2008-10-27, 05:59 PM
Drop 4 of the monk levels (or the swordsage levels, since they don't help you) for Caster 1 / Arcane Duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a) 2 / Something 1 for Cha to AC, if you can fit the prerequisites in.

Irreverent Fool
2008-10-27, 06:06 PM
I don't have time to put the whole build together right now, but with an LA of 2, one could be a (insert base race) feral half-minotaur and get a natural armor of +9 (including the increase for size increasing to large). Crucians (LA +2) from the Miniatures Handbook have a natural armor of +8. I'm not sure if the templates above increase existing natural armor or not, as I don't have my books handy.

Perhaps someone else will find these tidbits useful for your challenge.

Oh, also there's a frostrager build floating around that gives Con to AC twice. You might be able to take something from that.

Douglas
2008-10-27, 06:16 PM
If you're going by strict RAW Vow of Poverty is based on character level, which does not include level adjustment. However, the Vow's bonuses are meant to replace Wealth By Level, which is based on ECL, so RAI is definitely that LA counts.

You've already acknowledged that Monk and Swordsage do not stack by RAI, but if you read the Swordsage ability carefully you'll notice that they don't stack by RAW either. Swordsage AC bonus only works in light armor and goes away if you take that armor off. As you cannot wear both light armor and no armor at the same time, you cannot benefit from both Monk and Swordsage AC bonuses at the same time.

See if you can fit a level of Fist of the Forest (Complete Champion) in there for con to AC. You might want to move ability scores around to take better advantage of this.

monty
2008-10-27, 06:33 PM
Stack a bunch of NA-boosting templates onto Tauric. If you can use that to throw the universe, you can use that to get ridiculous AC.

golentan
2008-10-27, 06:43 PM
Curses, what sort of sick person puts an ac bonus only for light armor. I looked and falsely assumed it was light armor or none. Shows I have to read more carefully and/or do a google search. Edited below. Also, realized I didn't meet the prereqs for CE, changed for that, and added level adjustments to abilities. I am way too tired.

Holy Monk-ey:
Monk 8 Saint Anthropomorphic Monkey
Str: 8, Dex: 18, Con: 12, Int: 14, Wis: 28, Cha 8,
Feats: Sacred Vow, Vow of poverty, Improved Initiative, Monk: stunning fist, Deflect arrows, Bonus Exalted: Sanctify Ki Strike, Touch of Golden Ice, Intuitive Attack, Feats from flaws: Combat Expertise, Dodge, Flaws: Noncombatant, Shaky. Traits: Cautious.

Net AC (if level adjustment doesn't stack with VoP): 49 (+10 monk, +9 Saint, +2 dodge, +5 combat expertise, +1 size, +4 dex, +6 exalted, +1 deflection, +1 natural), Flat footed 27, Touch 48.
If it does: 50 (+10 monk, +9 Saint, +2 dodge, +5 combat expertise, +1 size, +4 dex, +7 exalted, +1 deflection, +1 natural), Flat footed 28, Touch 49.

Draz74
2008-10-27, 06:53 PM
Curses, what sort of sick person puts an ac bonus only for light armor. I looked and falsely assumed it was light armor or none.

Again, this is a perfectly valid RAI interpretation, but ... then again, if you're going by RAI you can't have it stack with the Monk bonus. You're stuck either way!

Douglas
2008-10-27, 07:09 PM
Again, this is a perfectly valid RAI interpretation, but ... then again, if you're going by RAI you can't have it stack with the Monk bonus. You're stuck either way!
Yeah, RAI Swordsage applies in light or no armor but does not stack with Monk. RAW Swordsage does not apply in no armor. Either way, it doesn't work.

One silly mistake in writing fixes another.:smallwink::smallamused:

Too bad it doesn't always work that way.

golentan
2008-10-27, 07:20 PM
Still, that doesn't change the fact that the sample fighter in the DMG needs truestrike to hit me on something other than a Nat 20, even without the swordsage boost.

I need to find another wisdom to ac bonus, though. I know ninja doesn't stack, what about anything else? Again, just going by RAW.

Flickerdart
2008-10-27, 07:31 PM
Still, that doesn't change the fact that the sample fighter in the DMG needs truestrike to hit me on something other than a Nat 20, even without the swordsage boost.

I need to find another wisdom to ac bonus, though. I know ninja doesn't stack, what about anything else? Again, just going by RAW.
Yeah, with that AC and Monk's saves, you're going to be pretty hard to hurt, other than on Flat Footed.

I don't think WIS to AC stacks with itself, does it? It's the same bonus regardless if class.

Douglas
2008-10-27, 07:32 PM
Take cleric for the Balance domain. It only works 1/day for 1 round/cleric level, but it is a free action to activate.

According to the X Stat to Y bonus (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=320889) thread that's all unless you really want to look up a particular obscure PrC in an old (3.0) issue of Dragon.

Yukitsu
2008-10-27, 07:35 PM
Couldn't an awakened bat psion get like, a 70 or something like that?

golentan
2008-10-27, 07:40 PM
Take cleric for the Balance domain. It only works 1/day for 1 round/cleric level, but it is a free action to activate.

According to the X Stat to Y bonus (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=320889) thread that's all unless you really want to look up a particular obscure PrC in an old (3.0) issue of Dragon.

Most excellent, I thank you kindly.

Talic
2008-10-27, 07:41 PM
Dwarf Druid X/Deepwarden 2

Wilding clasp on a couple AC enhancing items, say, a +2 ring of protection and a +2 natural armor item.

Wilding Extreme Plate +1.

Now, you get the Extreme plate (11)+ Con to AC, +4 for items. Add in Warshaper 3, and get +4 con, and you get extra AC. It's possible to use Deepwarden + Greater Barbarian Rage as well to raise AC.

Lyndworm
2008-10-27, 08:39 PM
Bladesinger Class Levels to Dodge (Max = Int)
Requires Elf/Half-elf, BAB +5, Balance 2, Concentration 4, Perform (dance) 2, Perform (sing) 2, Tumble 2, Combat Casting, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Weapon Focus (longsword or rapier), ability to cast 1st level Arcane spells.

Arcane Duelist Charisma to AC
Requires BAB +6, Perform 5, Tumble 5, Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Proficiency (rapier, short sword, or dagger), ability to cast 1st level Arcane spells.

Risen Martyr Charisma as Deflection
Requires any Good alignment, Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +2, any one skill 9, Speak Language (Celestial), Nimbus of Light, any one other exalted feat, must have suffered martyrdom and must not have been returned to life.



Hopefully this helps.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-10-27, 09:51 PM
Dwarf, Divine Minion of Anhur (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) (+1 LA), Master of Many Forms 7/ Deepwarden 2; take one flaw to get Alertness and Endurance on character creation, which allows you to take Master of Many Forms as your first class level. Get Leadership at 6 for an arcane spellcaster cohort who has Improved Familiar (DMG version) for a Shocker Lizard familiar. Wild Shape into a Shambling Mound, have the Shocker Lizard spend the next 18 hours shocking you. That's 10,800 rounds of shocks, each of which grants your 1d4 temporary Con, and over the eighteen hours you lose eighteen points. Average gain would be +26,982 Con at the end of it, which doesn't go away when your Wild Shape ends. Assuming 18 Con normally, that gives you a Con score of 27,000, for a +13495 Con modifier. Deepwarden grants your Con bonus to AC, so unarmored you'll have an AC 13,505, which drops at a rate of 1 point every 2 hours.

Glimbur
2008-10-27, 09:51 PM
You could throw in some Incarnum if you have nothing better to do with your feats. Midnight Dodge, Shape Soulmeld Rageclaws (they're useful and they qualify you for...) and Bonus Essentia gets you a dodge of +3 instead of +1. Or Shape Soulmeld Crystal Helm or Incarnate Avatar(if you're good) and Bonus Essentia for +2 to AC, deflection or insight, respectively.

It's not much, but...

golentan
2008-10-27, 10:29 PM
Average gain would be +26,982 Con at the end of it, which doesn't go away when your Wild Shape ends.

If that's true, you just won. But I would think that wouldn't be true, given it was a bonus to your wildshaped form's CON from a special ability of that form. I'd imagine that would get cut coming and going. And anyway: Eww. That's around 100,000 hp.

Honestly, I'm impressed, though it is closing on pun-pun cheese (form shifting+familiar/assistant granting you bonuses)

monty
2008-10-27, 11:12 PM
Honestly, I'm impressed, though it is closing on pun-pun cheese (form shifting+familiar/assistant granting you bonuses)

Not really. Pun-Pun is a near-infinite (that is, arbitrarily large) loop, while this has a hard set limit (Wildshape duration).

golentan
2008-10-27, 11:17 PM
Except that it only fades at a rate of 12/day, and you can do it again tomorrow, and every day you aren't actively doing something else. It's not instant (effective) ascent in the same way, and it doesn't have the exponential growth, and you aren't taking down deities with only 9 hit dice and a divine rank of nil, but the sentiment is uncomfortably similar.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-10-27, 11:19 PM
Divine Minion can Wild Shape at will, so you could spend years gaining +2.5 Con/round, -1/hr, which actually does end up being a nigh-infinite loop for pun-pun-flavored cheese.

monty
2008-10-27, 11:20 PM
Except that it only fades at a rate of 12/day, and you can do it again tomorrow, and every day you aren't actively doing something else. It's not instant (effective) ascent in the same way, and it doesn't have the exponential growth, and you aren't taking down deities with only 9 hit dice and a divine rank of nil, but the sentiment is uncomfortably similar.

It's still much more limited than Manipulate Form, and you still die on a natural 1 against a Finger of Death. Well, unless you have Steadfast Determination. But then there's still Save or Dies vs. will.

HP only helps you so much.

Yukitsu
2008-10-28, 12:21 AM
Isn't that covered by the ruling that bonuses from the same source of the same type never stack, even if untyped?

Talic
2008-10-28, 12:37 AM
Dwarf, Divine Minion of Anhur (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) (+1 LA), Master of Many Forms 7/ Deepwarden 2; take one flaw to get Alertness and Endurance on character creation, which allows you to take Master of Many Forms as your first class level. Get Leadership at 6 for an arcane spellcaster cohort who has Improved Familiar (DMG version) for a Shocker Lizard familiar. Wild Shape into a Shambling Mound, have the Shocker Lizard spend the next 18 hours shocking you. That's 10,800 rounds of shocks, each of which grants your 1d4 temporary Con, and over the eighteen hours you lose eighteen points. Average gain would be +26,982 Con at the end of it, which doesn't go away when your Wild Shape ends. Assuming 18 Con normally, that gives you a Con score of 27,000, for a +13495 Con modifier. Deepwarden grants your Con bonus to AC, so unarmored you'll have an AC 13,505, which drops at a rate of 1 point every 2 hours.

There's a bit of debate on whether this is possible, as level advancement requires you choose class first, prior to all other choices, including feats. You must also qualify for a class at the time it's chosen.

This means that, at level 1, you cannot choose a PRC that has a feat requirement, unless your race grants the feat to you. So MOMF would be limited to level 6, or deepwarden to level 1. That prevents your combo from working, whichever way you put it.

It would work at level 11, though, provided the temp con bonuses list as stacking with itself. Otherwise, temporary boosts from the same source wouldn't stack, much as temp HP from vampiric touch don't stack with themselves.

Bitzeralisis
2008-10-28, 01:03 AM
Dwarf, Divine Minion of Anhur (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) (+1 LA), Master of Many Forms 7/ Deepwarden 2; take one flaw to get Alertness and Endurance on character creation, which allows you to take Master of Many Forms as your first class level. Get Leadership at 6 for an arcane spellcaster cohort who has Improved Familiar (DMG version) for a Shocker Lizard familiar. Wild Shape into a Shambling Mound, have the Shocker Lizard spend the next 18 hours shocking you. That's 10,800 rounds of shocks, each of which grants your 1d4 temporary Con, and over the eighteen hours you lose eighteen points. Average gain would be +26,982 Con at the end of it, which doesn't go away when your Wild Shape ends. Assuming 18 Con normally, that gives you a Con score of 27,000, for a +13495 Con modifier. Deepwarden grants your Con bonus to AC, so unarmored you'll have an AC 13,505, which drops at a rate of 1 point every 2 hours.

The only problem is that the electrical field you're generating from all that absorbed power would probably have destroyed half the planet by then.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-10-28, 02:12 AM
There's a bit of debate on whether this is possible, as level advancement requires you choose class first, prior to all other choices, including feats. You must also qualify for a class at the time it's chosen.

This means that, at level 1, you cannot choose a PRC that has a feat requirement, unless your race grants the feat to you. So MOMF would be limited to level 6, or deepwarden to level 1. That prevents your combo from working, whichever way you put it.

It would work at level 11, though, provided the temp con bonuses list as stacking with itself. Otherwise, temporary boosts from the same source wouldn't stack, much as temp HP from vampiric touch don't stack with themselves.

Character creation works differently than level advancement. I'm actually used to saying to use Human instead of Dwarf to take MoMF as your first level; you actually need two flaws, which could be applied prior to gaining your first class level. Humans only need one flaw, because their racial bonus feat comes before they choose their first class level. Upon choosing a class, you'll have both of the required feats due to flaws and/or racial bonus feats, and you'll have met the Wild Shape prerequisite from the template.

Talic
2008-10-28, 02:23 AM
Dependent on what step that flaws come in. If flaws are in with the Race step, then yes.

If they're in with the feat step, then no.

golentan
2008-10-28, 02:23 PM
I think flaws are chosen in the race step, but you don't get the bonus feats until the feat step. So I'm ruling out MoMF for this build anyway.

ravenkith
2008-10-29, 10:43 AM
I forget how I did it, but I got a 73 at one point. It was at level 15, not 10, but there were some levels that didn't figure into the ac equeation in the build as well.

It basically took a character with two good stats (INT and DEX at 18 each) and made him valuable.

I remember an int to ac prc being involved (can't remember which one) and Abjurant champion, and I took the Carmendine Monk feat to get INT to ac twice.

So it was base 10+4+4+4=22 (naked). Then he threw on greater mage armor (6) and shield (9).

He was whispergnome using the titan fighting trick, so he got a +4 dodge bonus...

That's 41....I forget the other tricks I pulled, I know he had a full equipment loadout including a headband +6 and gloves +6, which granted an extra 9, plus the +5 na and +5 defelction...

that's 60 right there. <shrug>

As I said, I think the final number was 73. I ended up scaling it back a bit because after a certain point, it became a case of diminishing returns. AC is important, but not the be-all-end -all.

Lyndworm
2008-10-29, 03:26 PM
The general concesus is that you can't get the same stat to AC twice, so the build is rather flawed in that regard.

However, this did give me an idea. Assuming that RAI > RAW, an unarmored swordsage gets Wis to AC. As we all know, so does the monk. However, with the Kung Fu Genius feat monks can instead apply Int to AC. The Arcane Duelist PrC gets Cha to AC. Since these are three entirely different bonuses, they all stack.

So... Assuming you rolled phenomenally well, you have 18 Dex, 18 Int, and 18 Wis, and 18 Cha. (For the sake of argument, lets assume 18 Str and 18 Con, too. You're perfect, OK?) I'm going to be using the UA variant rules for fractional BAB, because multiclassing without them is just plain silly.

Monk 1
Monk 1 | Swordsage 1
Monk 1 | Swordsage 2
Monk 1 | Swordsage 2 | Bard 1
Monk 1 | Swordsage 2 | Bard 2
Monk 1 | Swordsage 2 | Bard 3
Monk 1 | Swordsage 2 | Bard 3 | Monk 2
Monk 1 | Swordsage 2 | Bard 3 | Monk 3
Monk 1 | Swordsage 2 | Bard 3 | Monk 3 | Arcane Duelist 1
Monk 1 | Swordsage 2 | Bard 3 | Monk 3 | Arcane Duelist 2

Pick up Kung Fu Genius at 1st level, Dodge at third, and Mobility at 6th. Make sure to get 5 ranks in Tumble and Perform before 9th level. I threw in more monk at levels 7 and 8, but anything with at least 3/4 BAB will work.

Assuming you've followed my instructions so far, you should have Dex, Int, Wis, and Cha to AC. With you're handy 18's, that's +16 with no cheese.

It's not a lot, but it is +16 when completely naked. Throw in items that boost AC and go to town.

Zack

Douglas
2008-10-29, 03:56 PM
The general concesus is that you can't get the same stat to AC twice, so the build is rather flawed in that regard.
No, the general consensus is that this particular means of getting wisdom to AC twice doesn't work. You could get wisdom to AC a million times with no problem if you could find a million different abilities that give that benefit and all work at the same time. How the magnitude of a particular bonus is determined (i.e. that it's equal to your wisdom bonus) is completely and totally irrelevant for determining stacking.

The type and source of the bonus are the only things that matter. In the case of Monk and Swordsage, both bonuses are untyped and the two abilities are clearly (by RAW) different - different limits on use, and different scaling. If it were possible to satisfy both of their requirement simultaneously, they would stack.


However, this did give me an idea. Assuming that RAI > RAW, an unarmored swordsage gets Wis to AC. As we all know, so does the monk. However, with the Kung Fu Genius feat monks can instead apply Int to AC. The Arcane Duelist PrC gets Cha to AC. Since these are three entirely different bonuses, they all stack.
Kung Fu Genius is irrelevant to stacking. What does matter if you're trying to argue RAI is that RAI also says the Swordsage bonus is clearly meant as an improved version of the Monk bonus. They are therefore effectively the same ability despite their minor differences and do not stack.

Arcane Duelist does stack, but the fact that it's based on charisma has nothing to do with it. The fact that the Apparent Defense ability is clearly not the same ability as either the Monk or Swordsage AC bonus abilities is what makes it stack, along with the fact that it's an untyped bonus.

monty
2008-10-29, 04:23 PM
The rule is you can't benefit from the same ability twice. Both Monk and Swordsage have the ability "AC bonus," only with differences on when specifically it works. On the other hand, Arcane Duelist has Apparent Defense, nymph has Unearthly Grace, etc. Those would all stack, because they're different abilities.

Lyndworm
2008-10-29, 04:29 PM
No, the general consensus is that this particular means of getting wisdom to AC twice doesn't work. You could get wisdom to AC a million times with no problem if you could find a million different abilities that give that benefit and all work at the same time. How the magnitude of a particular bonus is determined (i.e. that it's equal to your wisdom bonus) is completely and totally irrelevant for determining stacking.

Thank you for pointing out my folly. If you'll allow me to correct myself;

"The general concensus is that you can't get the same stat to AC twice in that fashion, so the build is rather flawed in that regard."



Kung Fu Genius is irrelevant to stacking. What does matter if you're trying to argue RAI is that RAI also says the Swordsage bonus is clearly meant as an improved version of the Monk bonus. They are therefore effectively the same ability despite their minor differences and do not stack.

That would be the tricky thing about RAI; different people have different ideas as to the intention of the rule.

I honestly don't see why they wouldn't stack. This is not to say that I don't see your point. I do, in fact, see from where you're coming, I merely disagree.

I think that the swordsage's AC Bonus' allowance of light armor and the monk's AC Bonus' disallowance of medium and heavy loads coupled with the flat +1 bonus gained every five levels make the two abilities different enough to be distinct. You do not.

Thank you for enlightening me with your opinion. I appreciate the glimpse into the other side of the discussion.

Zack

Arbitrarity
2008-10-29, 05:00 PM
Exalted Saint Venerable Dragonwrought Loredrake Kobold /Battle Sorceror 5/Monk 1/Abjurant Champion 2
(Using fractional UA BAB and saves)

1) Dragonwrought
1) Sacred Vow (Flaw: Murky Eyed)
3) Vow of Poverty
4) Vow of Nonviolence
6) Vow of Peace
6) Draconic Resevoir
8) Nimbus of Light

Has undergone Greater Draconic Rite of Passage.

Pertinent scores:
Exalted AC bonus +8
Deflection +3
Natural Armor +4
Wisdom score of 26, +8 insight and untyped bonuses to AC.
+1 size bonus to AC.
Dexterity score of 20, +5 to AC
Shield bonus +6, available 3/day freely from draconic rite of passage for shield. With 10 minute duration, should last most combats. Casts as a sorceror 10. Access to Greater Luminous armor, for +10 AC.
Reduce Person, for another +1 dexterity, +1 size. Owl's Wisdom, for an additional +2 wisdom, +2 AC. Cat's Grace, for another +2 AC

That's 67 AC buffed, 57 unbuffed.
Later, finish Abjurant Champion, and then grab two arcane duelist levels. Boosts AC another 6+CHA points.

Douglas
2008-10-29, 05:09 PM
I think that the swordsage's AC Bonus' allowance of light armor and the monk's AC Bonus' disallowance of medium and heavy loads coupled with the flat +1 bonus gained every five levels make the two abilities different enough to be distinct. You do not.
In the rules mechanics of how they work, yes. In what they are meant to represent, no. It seems quite clear to me and every poster I've ever seen comment on the subject that Swordsage is meant in large part as an improved version of the Monk class. It even has an unarmed variant that gets the Monk's unarmed damage progression.

Thus, when I see the two classes have an ability with exactly the same name that differs only in its usefulness at low levels, it seems extremely obvious to me that those two abilities are meant to represent exactly the same thing. The Monk ability gains an extra +4 spread out over 20 levels. The Swordsage gets those 4 points up front by adding a Chain Shirt. Other than that the effects and restrictions are identical (Swordsage doesn't work with medium or heavy loads either - it requires being unencumbered), and they appear a mere 1 level apart in their respective class level progressions. How could that not be simply two slightly different rules mechanics for the same thing?


Thank you for enlightening me with your opinion. I appreciate the glimpse into the other side of the discussion.

Zack
Yes, it is an opinion, but I'm pretty sure it is by far the dominant opinion.

Edit: The Exalted bonus from Vow of Poverty does not stack with the Armor bonus from Greater Luminous Armor.

goram.browncoat
2008-10-29, 05:24 PM
Probably also under tha category of near punpun cheese but nonetheless worth a mention:

Classic fun with effigies and magic jar: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=530759

Arbitrarity
2008-10-29, 05:30 PM
Probably also under tha category of near punpun cheese but nonetheless worth a mention:

Classic fun with effigies and magic jar: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=530759

That doesn't work. The end result of the specific templates gives a construct, which cannot have effigy applied to it. However, another build, later down, seems to work. How does this help your AC?

Also, magic jar doesn't work on effigies, which are immune to necromancy, being constructs.

goram.browncoat
2008-10-29, 05:48 PM
That doesn't work. The end result of the specific templates gives a construct, which cannot have effigy applied to it. However, another build, later down, seems to work. How does this help your AC?

Also, magic jar doesn't work on effigies, which are immune to necromancy, being constructs.

The necromancy immunity was fixable with something from magic of incarnum (living construct type of some sort). I think its mentioned somewhere in the thread but i forget where exactly, its been a while since i read it.

Also, i was under the impression that immunities could voluntarily be dropped (or in the case of an effigy, be ordered to be voluntarily dropped), or is that a houserule my DM uses?

insecure
2008-10-29, 05:55 PM
The necromancy immunity was fixable with something from magic of incarnum (living construct type of some sort). I think its mentioned somewhere in the thread but i forget where exactly, its been a while since i read it.

Also, i was under the impression that immunities could voluntarily be dropped (or in the case of an effigy, be ordered to be voluntarily dropped), or is that a houserule my DM uses?

I haven't seen it anywhere in any rulebook, so I'll guess it's a house-rule.

golentan
2008-10-29, 05:59 PM
Immunities can only be voluntarily dropped if they specifically say so. Construct immunities do not: ergo you're stuck with them whether they help or hinder you. You might be able to change that with a specific template/spell effect, but otherwise you're stuck.

Lyndworm
2008-10-29, 06:00 PM
Swordsage doesn't work with medium or heavy loads either - it requires being unencumbered

Swordsage sure does work with heavy loads if you're a dwarf. See the difference? :smalltongue:



Yes, it is an opinion, but I'm pretty sure it is by far the dominant opinion.

No disrespect meant, but it's been my experience that being popular and being good don't always have anything to do with one another. Obviously an opinion can't be wrong, but it can be flawed. Whether the flawed opinion here is mine I simply can't say, but until further evidence comes to light my opinion will be the one I follow.

Zack

Demons_eye
2008-10-29, 06:08 PM
I dont if its been said but 2 levels of paly get wis to ac with two feats. One for plays abiltys from wis other is saves to ac.

Fax Celestis
2008-10-29, 06:10 PM
Dwarf, Divine Minion of Anhur (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) (+1 LA), Master of Many Forms 7/ Deepwarden 2; take one flaw to get Alertness and Endurance on character creation, which allows you to take Master of Many Forms as your first class level. Get Leadership at 6 for an arcane spellcaster cohort who has Improved Familiar (DMG version) for a Shocker Lizard familiar. Wild Shape into a Shambling Mound, have the Shocker Lizard spend the next 18 hours shocking you. That's 10,800 rounds of shocks, each of which grants your 1d4 temporary Con, and over the eighteen hours you lose eighteen points. Average gain would be +26,982 Con at the end of it, which doesn't go away when your Wild Shape ends. Assuming 18 Con normally, that gives you a Con score of 27,000, for a +13495 Con modifier. Deepwarden grants your Con bonus to AC, so unarmored you'll have an AC 13,505, which drops at a rate of 1 point every 2 hours.
Take a level of Fist of the Forest from Complete Champion for another Con-to-Ac moment.

AC 27000.

Eldariel
2008-10-29, 06:10 PM
Saint (applied last, duh) Dragonborn Anthropomorphic Bat with Monk, Fist of the Forests and Stoneblessed > Deepwarden gets Con x2 and Wis x2 to AC.

Reasonable numbers:
Wis 34 (18 + 6 Bat + 2 Saint + 2 levels + 6 item)
Con 26 (18 + 2 Dragonborn + 6 item)

For 10+12+12+8+8 for AC 50 pre-AC items. This is without assuming that same stats to AC from classes stack (Deepwarden replaces Dex to AC with Con to AC, so effectively this gets Dex (replaced with Con), Con and Wis from classes and Wis from template - I suppose Arcane Duelist could add 9 or so, but it may be hard to fit already). Meh, get permanent PAO (just the spell cast twice - costs 7000 or so) for nutty natural armor and such.

golentan
2008-10-29, 06:35 PM
I dont if its been said but 2 levels of paly get wis to ac with two feats. One for plays abiltys from wis other is saves to ac.

Specific feats/books please.

Arbitrarity
2008-10-29, 06:52 PM
Saint (applied last, duh) Dragonborn Anthropomorphic Bat with Monk, Fist of the Forests and Stoneblessed > Deepwarden gets Con x2 and Wis x2 to AC.

Reasonable numbers:
Wis 34 (18 + 6 Bat + 2 Saint + 2 levels + 6 item)
Con 26 (18 + 2 Dragonborn + 6 item)

For 10+12+12+8+8 for AC 50 pre-AC items. This is without assuming that same stats to AC from classes stack (Deepwarden replaces Dex to AC with Con to AC, so effectively this gets Dex (replaced with Con), Con and Wis from classes and Wis from template - I suppose Arcane Duelist could add 9 or so, but it may be hard to fit already). Meh, get permanent PAO (just the spell cast twice - costs 7000 or so) for nutty natural armor and such.

Hm. Needs 5 monk levels to qualify, and 2 FoTF levels. This leaves no room for deepwarden, so the build is illegal by level 10. Specific levels please.

Also, exceeding WBL.

Douglas
2008-10-29, 07:23 PM
Swordsage sure does work with heavy loads if you're a dwarf. See the difference? :smalltongue:
A dwarf carrying a heavy load does not have his speed reduced. This is not the same thing as being unencumbered. He is still carrying a heavy load with its max dex of +1, check penalty of -6, and run speed of x3 instead of x4. The dwarf trait removes one of the penalties of encumbrance, but not the entire condition.


No disrespect meant, but it's been my experience that being popular and being good don't always have anything to do with one another. Obviously an opinion can't be wrong, but it can be flawed. Whether the flawed opinion here is mine I simply can't say, but until further evidence comes to light my opinion will be the one I follow.

Zack
When the matter in question is logical interpretation of rules, the two have a rather stronger correlation than otherwise, I think.

Could you explain the reasoning behind your opinion? Honestly, I don't see any possible reason beyond minor technicalities to consider the abilities different, and such things are rarely indicators of RAI.

AmberVael
2008-10-29, 07:31 PM
No disrespect meant, but it's been my experience that being popular and being good don't always have anything to do with one another. Obviously an opinion can't be wrong, but it can be flawed. Whether the flawed opinion here is mine I simply can't say, but until further evidence comes to light my opinion will be the one I follow.

Zack

While true, it is also true that if it is the majority opinion, it is also the one most likely to be held by your DM, whose opinion it is that matters.
It's not that it is better, it's that it is the rule most likely to be enforced (and as such, the one most likely to be accorded weight in discussion).

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-29, 08:58 PM
No disrespect meant, but it's been my experience that being popular and being good don't always have anything to do with one another. Obviously an opinion can't be wrong, but it can be flawed. Whether the flawed opinion here is mine I simply can't say, but until further evidence comes to light my opinion will be the one I follow.The Monk and Swordsage don't stack by RAW due to the different trigger conditions(Light Armor v. No Armor), and don't stack by RAI. I think it is obvious the Swordsage is supposed to fill the role of the Monk/Rogue/Ninja(there's even a Monk-like in the Adaptation section), like the Warblade replaces the Fighter/Barb and the Crusader replaces the Paladin. If you're not arguing by RAW(which you have admitted you aren't), then you are arguing by either RAI or the 'pulling stuff out your ***' method. If RAI, then the most popular opinion is usually correct. If by the other method, I can't help you.

Lyndworm
2008-10-29, 10:36 PM
A dwarf carrying a heavy load does not have his speed reduced. This is not the same thing as being unencumbered. He is still carrying a heavy load with its max dex of +1, check penalty of -6, and run speed of x3 instead of x4. The dwarf trait removes one of the penalties of encumbrance, but not the entire condition.

Yes...yes. My mistake. I'm sorry for the somewhat flippant response in my last post.



When the matter in question is logical interpretation of rules, the two have a rather stronger correlation than otherwise, I think.

Though true, I can't help but feel insulted at the implication of my opinion as illogical.



Could you explain the reasoning behind your opinion? Honestly, I don't see any possible reason beyond minor technicalities to consider the abilities different, and such things are rarely indicators of RAI.

I'd love to, but I can't think of any way to make myself clearer. The minor technicalities you see look more like important distinguishing features to me. I am admittedly unfamiliar with many cases of RAW vs. RAI. It simply hasn't come up much in my experience.



While true, it is also true that if it is the majority opinion, it is also the one most likely to be held by your DM, whose opinion it is that matters.
It's not that it is better, it's that it is the rule most likely to be enforced (and as such, the one most likely to be accorded weight in discussion).

The above statement is factual.



The Monk and Swordsage don't stack by RAW due to the different trigger conditions(Light Armor v. No Armor), and don't stack by RAI. I think it is obvious the Swordsage is supposed to fill the role of the Monk/Rogue/Ninja(there's even a Monk-like in the Adaptation section), like the Warblade replaces the Fighter/Barb and the Crusader replaces the Paladin.[QUOTE]

Though I agree with your class comparisons, I disagree with the idea that classes which are similar and grant abilities which are similar automatically discount one another.


[QUOTE]If you're not arguing by RAW(which you have admitted you aren't), then you are arguing by either RAI or the 'pulling stuff out your ***' method. If RAI, then the most popular opinion is usually correct. If by the other method, I can't help you.

The good method, the confusing method, and my favorite method. :smallamused:


Zack

Douglas
2008-10-29, 11:02 PM
I'd love to, but I can't think of any way to make myself clearer. The minor technicalities you see look more like important distinguishing features to me. I am admittedly unfamiliar with many cases of RAW vs. RAI. It simply hasn't come up much in my experience.
The differences between the two abilities boil down to +4 AC spread over 20 levels vs +4 AC immediately. That kind of difference, in base classes that are meant to represent the same kind of character, is rebalancing the same ability, not making a whole new ability.


Though I agree with your class comparisons, I disagree with the idea that classes which are similar and grant abilities which are similar automatically discount one another.
Let's try reasoning by fluff, a common technique for trying to determine RAI. Say someone goes through special training to get better at dodging. He learns a lot, gains a "sixth sense" for incoming attacks, and gets a lot harder to hit. Now he goes through more special training for how to dodge better - but it's extremely similar to what he did before. Most of the course is review. Should his improved dodging ability get twice as good?

Lyndworm
2008-10-29, 11:33 PM
Let's try reasoning by fluff, a common technique for trying to determine RAI. Say someone goes through special training to get better at dodging. He learns a lot, gains a "sixth sense" for incoming attacks, and gets a lot harder to hit. Now he goes through more special training for how to dodge better - but it's extremely similar to what he did before. Most of the course is review. Should his improved dodging ability get twice as good?

No. No it should not. His dodging ability should no doubt improve, but twice as good does seem a tad farfetched.

Zack

Demons_eye
2008-10-29, 11:43 PM
Hm. Needs 5 monk levels to qualify, and 2 FoTF levels. This leaves no room for deepwarden, so the build is illegal by level 10. Specific levels please.

Also, exceeding WBL.

He never states a level for the build and Stoneblessed makes you count as dwarf. So Deepwarden works.

Monk 2/Saint la 2/ Barabain 2/ FotF 1/ Deepwarden 3?

Con to ACx2 and wis to ACx2 By ten

Collin152
2008-10-29, 11:47 PM
He never states a level for the build


Highest possible AC at ECL 10

Checkmate.

Demons_eye
2008-10-29, 11:55 PM
The op maybe have stated a level but the build I was talking about didnt...

Talic
2008-10-30, 12:06 AM
Take a level of Fist of the Forest from Complete Champion for another Con-to-Ac moment.

AC 27000.

Why go for overkill?

It's already OVER 9000!

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-10-30, 12:19 AM
Old Dragonwrought Kobold Monk 1/Sorcerer 9 with Undead Leadership, Carmedine Monk, and an +4 item of Charisma means Leadership score of 24 if you can fit the modifiers in. 133 followers. Make them Zombie Bats and Skeleton Toads. You can fit all 133 of them into 2 squares behind you. Have them toss Aid Anothers onto your AC. 50% chance of making. +133 to your AC, combined with Nat Armor +1, +8 from Cha, Size +1, Dex(+2 from Kobold), and Greater Mage Armor for +6. Assuming 16 Dex before racial mods, no magic items beyond the Cloak and Gloves of Dex +2, you're looking at 165 AC. Just make sure you're not hit by a Fireball.

Magnor Criol
2008-10-30, 12:21 AM
Why go for overkill?

It's already OVER 9000!

Rule 37: "There is no such thing as 'overkill'. There is only 'open fire' and 'I need to reload'". :smallbiggrin:

Talic
2008-10-30, 12:25 AM
So you're saying...

Brute Force: If it isn't working, you're not using enough?

only1doug
2008-10-30, 04:56 AM
So you're saying...

Brute Force: If it isn't working, you're not using enough?

"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" - Salvador Hardin (in Asimov's foundation series)

"Oh, absolutely. Mercenaries are bright enough to resort to violence long before last resorts are required." (http://schlockmercenary.com/d/20000825.html) - Captain Tagon