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streakster
2008-10-27, 07:13 PM
EDIT: The story so far - after a great deal of advice - is an intelligent morphing sizing skillful weapon, built of auroram to prevent sundering, wielded in a locked gauntlet to avoid disarms. With this, one can wield every exotic weapon in the game, and have the weapon change between its forms on its own. The next step, of course, is to make your weapon ridiculously powerful - hello, Weapon of Legacy, Ancestral Relic, and Item Familiar! By being a ToB class, you'll have access to Stone Dragon strikes, thus taking care of DR.

Below is the original first post...
So, I'm creating a Rogue1/SwordSage4/Master of Masks1/ (Legacy Champion? Kensai?)

The aim is, have a morphing sizing weapon and all exotic proficiencies, thus wielding all the exotic weapons in the game. Then, using the Weapons of Legacy, Item Familiar, and Ancestral Relic, possibly Kensai, lots of Weapon Mods and gp-only enhancements, crystals, etc, make it stupid powerful.

So, my question is whether it would be better to have the transmuting enchantment, or the sure striking / metalline combo? Transmuting will bypass all DR, but Metallline offers all the metals in the game...tough call.

Moff Chumley
2008-10-27, 07:54 PM
I don't know what to say mechanically, but that sounds EPIC.

shadow_archmagi
2008-10-27, 07:56 PM
Metalline, so you can have it be gold/silver/plat encrusted in you want to show off, and appear to be a rusty old stick when you need to be inconspicuous.

Flickerdart
2008-10-27, 08:08 PM
Does Transmuting beat DR/epic? Because when you're beating down on the Tarrasque, that's very important to remember.

Iku Rex
2008-10-27, 08:44 PM
You can't get all exotic weapon proficiencies. Make your weapon skillful (CArc, +2) instead. Now you can use it no matter the current form.

streakster
2008-10-27, 08:46 PM
You can't get all exotic weapon proficiencies. Make your weapon skillful (CArc, +2) instead. Now you can use it no matter the current form.

Oh yes I can. Master of Mask's gladiator mask gives them all.

As a curiosity, what does skillful do exactly? Just remove the nonprof penalty? Might be a better idea, then...

golentan
2008-10-27, 08:48 PM
Does it break the build to be a warblade rather than swordsage? Or at a minimum do a one level dip. Because a warblade can change any weapon feat(s) for a single weapon (say exotic weapon proficiency (spiked chain)) to the same feat for another weapon (exotic weapon proficiency (dwarven urgrosh)) with an hour practicing with the new weapon. And this can apply for multiple feats for the same weapon, though those you no longer meet prerequisites for fail to keep functioning.

That might get you the feats you need.

:smallcool:

streakster
2008-10-27, 08:51 PM
Does it break the build to be a warblade rather than swordsage? Or at a minimum do a one level dip. Because a warblade can change any weapon feat(s) for a single weapon (say exotic weapon proficiency (spiked chain)) to the same feat for another weapon (exotic weapon proficiency (dwarven urgrosh)) with an hour practicing with the new weapon. And this can apply for multiple feats for the same weapon, though those you no longer meet prerequisites for fail to keep functioning.

That might get you the feats you need.

:smallcool:

Hmm. Kinda needed the skill ranks from SS for the MoM PrC - but seein' as how there seem to be two more (and better!) options on the table, I might have to rethink my build here...

Iku Rex
2008-10-27, 08:56 PM
Oh yes I can. Master of Mask's gladiator mask gives them all. I should have figured it was involved. I couldn't understand what a (as I remembered it) "spy class" had to do with wielding exotic weapons. :smallsmile:


As a curiosity, what does skillful do exactly? Just remove the nonprof penalty? Might be a better idea, then...Proficient with weapon, can attack with 3/4 character level BAB.

streakster
2008-10-27, 09:04 PM
Proficient with weapon, can attack with 3/4 character level BAB.

Oooh! And I only have a 3/4 BAB from Swordsage anyway!

Shiny....

Darrin
2008-10-27, 10:51 PM
So, I'm creating a Rogue1/SwordSage4/Master of Masks1/ (Legacy Champion? Kensai?)


Have you looked at Person_Man's Haberdash build yet? Or was that the inspiration for this? If not:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633



So, my question is whether it would be better to have the transmuting enchantment, or the sure striking / metalline combo? Transmuting will bypass all DR, but Metallline offers all the metals in the game...tough call.

Sure-striking + Metalline. There are quite a few exotic metals out there with interesting properties beyond the whole adamantine/cold iron/alchemical silver schtick.

Aurorum, pandemonic silver, hizagkuur, glassteel, etc.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-10-27, 11:00 PM
Sure-striking + Metalline. There are quite a few exotic metals out there with interesting properties beyond the whole adamantine/cold iron/alchemical silver schtick.

Aurorum, pandemonic silver, hizagkuur, glassteel, etc.

Anti-Osmium :smalltongue:

What? Don't you want to have a Retributive Strike capability "just in case" :smallbiggrin:

streakster
2008-10-27, 11:07 PM
Hmm. Metalline seems to be the clear winner, here....


Thanks for the Haberdash build, Darrin. I had seen it, but had forgotten about it. Useful stuff there...

monty
2008-10-27, 11:16 PM
Anti-Osmium :smalltongue:

What? Don't you want to have a Retributive Strike Planet Killer capability "just in case" :smallbiggrin:

Fixed for you.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-10-27, 11:23 PM
Fixed for you.

Hey, I never said how big a Retributive Strike it would be :smallbiggrin:

Besides, nothing quite says "screw you and your master plan" like turning your sword into a Planet Killer right before you would die anyways.

monty
2008-10-27, 11:28 PM
Hey, I never said how big a Retributive Strike it would be :smallbiggrin:

Besides, nothing quite says "screw you and your master plan" like turning your sword into a Planet Killer right before you would die anyways.

But a normal Retributive Strike only kills people. This kills...everything.:smalleek:

streakster
2008-10-27, 11:30 PM
But a normal Retributive Strike only kills people. This kills...everything.:smalleek:

And is, as such, the perfect sword...

golentan
2008-10-27, 11:33 PM
Well, we have to disagree there. I feel the perfect sword is one which never *needs* to kill anything! It just terrifies everyone (including all the epic outsiders) into submission. But I agree the Metalline blade in the hands of one who knows of anti-osmium may very well be that perfect sword.

monty
2008-10-27, 11:40 PM
Well, we have to disagree there. I feel the perfect sword is one which never *needs* to kill anything! It just terrifies everyone (including all the epic outsiders) into submission. But I agree the Metalline blade in the hands of one who knows of anti-osmium may very well be that perfect sword.

Speaking of epic outsiders, take a Hecatoncheires and give it 100 of whatever the Perfect Sword is. Now that's dangerous.

BobVosh
2008-10-27, 11:46 PM
Well, we have to disagree there. I feel the perfect sword is one which never *needs* to kill anything! It just terrifies everyone (including all the epic outsiders) into submission. But I agree the Metalline blade in the hands of one who knows of anti-osmium may very well be that perfect sword.


They say the best weapon is one you never have to fire kill with. I respectfully disagree. I prefer the weapon you only need to fire kill with once. That's how dad did it, that's how America does it, and it's worked out pretty well so far.

Mr. Stark disagrees, sir.

golentan
2008-10-27, 11:55 PM
Mr. Stark disagrees, sir.

Mr. Stark is a stuck up, egotistical pretty boy who never understood the business he was making a living in. He got his position by inheriting it from daddy, and parlayed a talent for building things into a reputation for genius that he most emphatically never deserved.

To see my full opinion of him:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAM3rbNIr4w

Townopolis
2008-10-27, 11:56 PM
I'm a bit confused.

According to my MIC, Metalline allows you to transform your weapon into alchemical silver, cold iron, admantine, or steel on command.

Transmuting automatically transforms after hitting something with DR, transforming into something that overcomes the DR.

I'd go with transmuting using the information above. Also, I'd make the base material mundane crystal or blue ice. This is to deal with ironguard.

Of course, I doubt a DM would throw ironguard at you, and if he does, you should have someone with dispel handy.

streakster
2008-10-28, 12:09 AM
I'm a bit confused.

According to my MIC, Metalline allows you to transform your weapon into alchemical silver, cold iron, admantine, or steel on command.

Transmuting automatically transforms after hitting something with DR, transforming into something that overcomes the DR.

I'd go with transmuting using the information above. Also, I'd make the base material mundane crystal or blue ice. This is to deal with ironguard.

Of course, I doubt a DM would throw ironguard at you, and if he does, you should have someone with dispel handy.

Ah, see. That was my trouble. Yes, transmuting overcomes all DR, but metalline offers all sorts of nifty metals - as they said, screaming silver, abyssal bloodiron, and so on.

Now, my base material would be auroram - that way, I never have to worry about sundering. I'd also buy a locked gauntlet, to be immune to disarms.

Iku Rex
2008-10-28, 12:15 AM
Ah, see. That was my trouble. Yes, transmuting overcomes all DR, but metalline offers all sorts of nifty metals - as they said, screaming silver, abyssal bloodiron, and so on.

Now, my base material would be auroram - that way, I never have to worry about sundering. I'd also buy a locked gauntlet, to be immune to disarms.It doesn't work like that any more.

From the MIC (most recent published version of metalline): "When you activate a metalline weapon, you can change its composition to adamantine, alchemical silver, cold iron, or ordinary steel."

No other metals.

Ascension
2008-10-28, 12:16 AM
Also, I'd make the base material mundane crystal or blue ice. This is to deal with ironguard.

Reading Ironguard, I have only one question... What if the weapon is one with metal and wood components? Arrows, polearms, etc.? Does the wood part damage you anyway? What damage die would you roll for an arrow without a head?

streakster
2008-10-28, 12:19 AM
It doesn't work like that any more.

From the MIC (most recent published version of metalline): "When you activate a metalline weapon, you can change its composition to adamantine, alchemical silver, cold iron, or ordinary steel."

No other metals.

Aaaw. Transmuting it is.

golentan
2008-10-28, 12:24 AM
Does Transmuting beat DR/epic? Because when you're beating down on the Tarrasque, that's very important to remember.

Having read MIC's transmuting weapon, I believe it works against any other than untyped. It doesn't exclude epic, so logically it includes it. Sadly, that doesn't give a +6 enhancement automatically, but yes, transmuting seems to be the way to go.

Rei_Jin
2008-10-28, 12:26 AM
That is correct. Remember though, that the change takes place 1 round after you successfully hit your opponent, and only lasts 10 rounds. If you only get 1 round of attacks before your opponent blasts you to hell, that may be too long a delay.

streakster
2008-10-28, 12:56 AM
That is correct. Remember though, that the change takes place 1 round after you successfully hit your opponent, and only lasts 10 rounds. If you only get 1 round of attacks before your opponent blasts you to hell, that may be too long a delay.

True, but since this is my only weapon, I gotta get around DR somehow...

Talic
2008-10-28, 01:34 AM
Start with a bow?

Or go the Shock trooper answer?

Penetrate DR? Is that anything like doing 350 damage in a hit, and watching as it rolls past DR to violate the enemy?

Zeful
2008-10-28, 01:49 AM
Aaaw. Transmuting it is.

Is this the Transmuting property from ToM? Because I know that it only allows it to bypass material based DR.

Townopolis
2008-10-28, 01:58 AM
It would be the transmuting property from MIC, as that is the latest source of the property, and I believe the standing rule is the latest version is the official one.

Darrin
2008-10-28, 07:21 AM
True, but since this is my only weapon, I gotta get around DR somehow...

Martial Study: Mountain Hammer. No prereqs, available at ECL 6. Ignores DR *and* hardness, with 2d6 extra damage as frosting on the cake. Only available once per encounter, though, so probably better to just dip a level of Warblade.

streakster
2008-10-28, 08:51 AM
Martial Study: Mountain Hammer. No prereqs, available at ECL 6. Ignores DR *and* hardness, with 2d6 extra damage as frosting on the cake. Only available once per encounter, though, so probably better to just dip a level of Warblade.

Hmmm...Martial Study would add it to my swordsage maneuvers, yes? So with Adaptive style...sweet.

So the weapon as it stands now is looking like a morphing sizing skillful weapon, and I put a feat down on Martial Study: Mountain Hammer. (Logically, as the Bo9S has legacy weapons which grant maneuvers known, I should be able to get it that way, but they didn't bother to include costs for those abilities.)

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-10-28, 09:42 AM
Hmmm...Martial Study would add it to my swordsage maneuvers, yes? So with Adaptive style...sweet.

So the weapon as it stands now is looking like a morphing sizing skillful weapon, and I put a feat down on Martial Study: Mountain Hammer. (Logically, as the Bo9S has legacy weapons which grant maneuvers known, I should be able to get it that way, but they didn't bother to include costs for those abilities.)

You won't need to Martial study it as Swordsage, who normally gets access to Stone Dragon anyways

streakster
2008-10-28, 10:04 AM
You won't need to Martial study it as Swordsage, who normally gets access to Stone Dragon anyways

Bah. I cannot think today. You, sir, are correct. Thank you.

So with a little Stone Dragon, DR goes away. This just keeps getting better and better.

So, a morphing sizing skillful weapon, made of auroram, wielded in a locked gauntlet by a Stone Dragon-using Swordsage. Looks like a vast improvement over my first build...

Person_Man
2008-10-28, 11:01 AM
Having created and played Haberdash (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633), it's my experience that you're better off buying several cheap magic weapons for an exotic weapon abuse build, rather then trying to shoehorn everything you want into a single weapon.

Why?

First, its a Standard Action to activate Morphing. I think it goes without saying that you should never waste a Standard Action just standing there waiting for your weapon to change. The biggest benefit of Master of Masks build is that you can use any combo, whenever you need it. For example, when combat starts you might use a Collapsing Crescent Fan to maximize your Iaijutsu Focus attacks. Then you could switch to a Piercing Staff so that you can stop enemy counter attacks. Then on your turn you could drop the staff and attack with your Kaorti Courtblade and Braid Blade for high damage. And if you still have attacks left after dropping your enemy you could throw a Razor Net at an enemy to slow him down and decrease his AC. Then you could pull out another Piercing Staff or a Ritiik and shift back into defense.

Second, unless you're a Bloodstorm Blade, you won't be able to throw your Mettaline Morphing weapon and make a full attack. So no Net/Razor Net/Lasso debuff combo. No ranged Trip attacks with Glot. No Orcish Shot Put to smack your enemy around when he's just out of reach. No Composite Greatbow when you want to ambush from afar and then switch to a thrown weapon to slow them down, and then a melee weapon if they manage to close in on you. Because again, Morphing is a Standard Action, and wasting a round in the middle of combat is a huge mistake.

Third, if DR is your concern, its a lot cheaper just to buy weapons made of different materials, rather then spending the enhancement on +1 Mettaline (or Transmuting) Morphing weapon, which is a +4 total. A +1 Mettaline Morphing Skillful (Complete Arcane) weapon would be a +6 weapon. That's a huge waste of gp. Even if you decide that you'll just pick one exotic weapon per combat, and will never make a ranged attack (unless that's all you're doing for that combat), you still end up wasting +3 or +5 worth of magic item enchantments that could be better used on other much better things.

Finally, five +2 weapons cost 40,000ish gp. That's cheaper then a single +5 weapon, which costs 50,000ish gp. So you can have a +1 Keen Kaorti Courtblade, a +1 Spell Storing Cold Iron Ritiik, a +1 Ghost Touch Silver Piercing Staff, a +1 Holy Adamantine Greathammer, and a +1 Cold Iron Impact Flindbar, and a Scabbard of Keen edges. You can also just ask your caster friends to improve a specific weapon as needed with spells, or use wands. Or you can just have 5 Spell Storing weapons, and get all the fun of being a Duskblade without the hassle of taking Duskblade levels. Or whatever. But again, you always want to have the right tool for the right job. And that's a lot cheaper with many weapons, rather then one weapon.

Now, if you're stuck on the coolness of just having one uber weapon, then I understand. If that's the case, then I suggest that you just stick with a +1 Morphing melee weapon, and build your weapon up from there. You can overcome DR with any traditional high damage combo. And before each combat you just have to decide what tactic you want to use (Grapple, Trip, Disarm, or raw damage) and switch it accordingly.

streakster
2008-10-28, 11:29 AM
<snip>
Now, if you're stuck on the coolness of just having one uber weapon, then I understand. If that's the case, then I suggest that you just stick with a +1 Morphing melee weapon, and build your weapon up from there. You can overcome DR with any traditional high damage combo. And before each combat you just have to decide what tactic you want to use (Grapple, Trip, Disarm, or raw damage) and switch it accordingly.

Thank you! Yes, I'm stuck on my uber weapon - buying lots would be cheaper and much more effective, but then I can't have my Item Familiar/Relic/Weapon of Legacy awesomeness.

Hopefully some Diamond Mind will help if I ever have to switch mid-fight.

EDIT: Unless, of course, I can figure out some way that the weapon, being intelligent, can morph itself. The SRD does say the weapon can activate its own powers, after all...

Person_Man
2008-10-28, 12:03 PM
EDIT: Unless, of course, I can figure out some way that the weapon, being intelligent, can morph itself. The SRD does say the weapon can activate its own powers, after all...

Construct Familiar that also an Item Familiar? Alter Self abuse?
Or Craft Construct, and make a permanent Animated Object?

monty
2008-10-28, 12:48 PM
Construct Familiar that also an Item Familiar? Alter Self abuse?
Or Craft Construct, and make a permanent Animated Object?

Or just an intelligent item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/intelligentItems.htm)...

streakster
2008-10-28, 01:46 PM
Construct Familiar that also an Item Familiar? Alter Self abuse?
Or Craft Construct, and make a permanent Animated Object?

Item Familiar will make it intelligent at level 7, and I can take that as my weapon legacy ability too, should I need it earlier. So now my weapon transforms on its own time, meaning that I can use Haberdash's tricks with my ridiculously powerful weapon! Yay!